Roland JX-3P & Kiwi mod | Stay away from this
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2022
- After using a Kiwi modded JX-3P for quite some time I can honestly say I really dislike this mod. Way too many features, hard to access, bugs, but most of all; they changed things that makes the modded 3P sound inferior to the original synth. Especially the envelopes. With a Kiwi modded 3P you get envelopes that sounds more clinical and less musical than on the original synth.
Admittedly the new controller from Retroaktiv, the PG-2K makes it a lot faster and easier to access the parameters, but even that can't take away that the mod is a bad choice for any 3P lovers. I highly advice to stay away from these mods.
The above rant is of course my highly biased opinion I admit to that. ;-)
I thought the Kiwi mod makes it play Flight of the Conchords songs?
A lot of cool stuff has come out of Wellington. ;-) The mod is from Auckland though, I believe.
@@EspenKraft Perhaps the company is from Aukland but I knew a guy from Victoria, Canada who designed and coded the KIWI projects. I actually have one of his un-modified JUNO-106 keyboards with restored voice chips and re-calibrated filters. When I went to pick it up, his basement was filled with JUNOs and JX-3Ps in various states of disassembly. They were being rebuilt into the KIWI-modded versions. I guess I rescued my JUNO...lol
Don't perform any organ (pun intended) transplants on that 106. It's perfectly fine as it is. Not even a blood transfusion should be done to it.
LOL
@@EspenKraft Haha, Well, I tend to agree although I was very happy to have the voice chips restored. With the exception of the occasional MIDI interface I like my vintage synths au naturel
I have both the Original JX3p and the Kiwi mod version. I think the Kiwi version sounds a bit like a blend of JX3p and Jupiter-6 now. I love it
No examples to compare? Hopefully you can get some when you have both modded and un-modded nearby. I really haven't been tempted by the kiwi mod for the JX3p as I don't find the original too difficult (it's not a hard synth) and I have plenty of other ways to get similar results on other boards without messing with it.
No examples will come from me. It's gone now. If people get the mod or not, is not my call, this is just a little friendly warning. ;-)
A lot of people appear to think that the sound generation hardware is changed/ modified with the Kiwi3P upgrade. This is incorrect, as the Kiwi3P is an OS rewrite/ upgrade over the original and doesn't change any of the tone generating hardware other than if you also include the variable chorus mod. The sonic change in some patches after an upgrade was due to the Kiwi envelopes not matching the original Roland envelopes (the 3P uses software envelopes). This was addressed with version 4.x of the firmware, so ensure that any comparisons are done with the updated firmware.
Also bare in mind that the standard 3P has very primitive MIDI, and you cannot use the PG200 and send MIDI to the 3P simultaneously as the two are mutually exclusive. A standard 3P also has no CC or SYSEX ability. The Kiwi3P upgrade addresses all of these limitations and turns it into a much more flexible and powerful synth. Plus it adds extra features such as an arpeggiator, an extra envelope, extra lfo and you have the ability to coarse detune both oscillators for some really fat sounding bass (the original can only coarse detune one of the oscillators). There's a whole bunch of other features added also, you can see all of them on the KiwiTechnics website.
Granted that not all the new features are that useful for everyone, and having so many of them makes navigating from the front panel a lot more tedious. However, use a programmable midi controller (I use a BCR2000 with a map already made available for the Kiwi3P) and navigating becomes a breeze. Plus all knobs now send MIDI CC so you can tweak and record all the 3P parameters in real time and record these changes within any DAW.
Though the Kiwi3P upgrade isn't for everyone, I have no regrets upgrading mine and enjoy having these extra feature that takes the 3P to another level. And when I need the original 3P feature set, I can just swap over the Kiwi3P CPU for the standard Intel CPU that the original 3P came with (the upgrade uses a socket).
The only thing I wished that was different about the Kiwi3P upgrade, if it would even be possible, would be to have both Kiwi3P and original Intel CPUs fitted simultaneously with the ability to select original or upgrade upon boot up. That would have enabled the best of both worlds.
i appreciate your comment. I just got a kiwi mod. I think the mod is well worth it. I wouldn't use the mks-30 much without midi and CC sysex
A lot of the problems with videos like these is that there’s no attempt to technically explain what is going on inside the synthesizer. The closest we get is the word «clinical», which doesn’t really mean anything. Turns out the issue is quite simple and has already been adressed, meaning this video becomes a misleading deterrent for potential new Kiwi-buyers.
@@brettwayne8103 - You're describing the "Kiwi3P Matrix", a later and different upgrade to the original "Kiwi3P" upgrade that was used in the video and is being discussed in this thread.
And the original Kiwi3P (not Matrix 3P) envelopes not responding the same as the original 3P envelopes was addressed with the "Kiwi3P" firmware update 4.x onwards.
@@ChasD you are indeed correct. I humbly apologize for being off topic and not up to date.. I installed v1.3 build 4 in the kiwi-30 and all is well for me. Been enjoying the new sound sets and dialing in some nice long evolving filter sweeps.
@@brettwayne8103 - Glad to hear that updating your Kiwi-30 has had a positive outcome! It can be confusing when there are so many different firmware versions, plus different hardware versions (Kiwi3P and Matrix 3P), and also when some firmware versions can behave quite differently. Thankfully KiwiTechnics do listen to their users, and addressed the envelope issue with the later updates.
After years of being looked over, both the JX-3P and MK-30S are now getting the love and recognition they should always have been given, and the expanded KIWI features make them much more useful in a modern studio. My 3P is 100% a keeper!
I would trade a stock 3p for a kiwi modded one everyday.
Just bought a jx3p two weeks ago, thought about getting the midi mod. This is hands down the most underrated synth of the Roland lineup. I heckin love this thing
The JX-3P was my first synth in the 80s and it's still part of my setup today because I just love the sound.
I looked into the different mods available and then decided against Kiwi and Organix - but ended up using the Tauntek ROM.
It's a simple and cheap way to get better MIDI functions and the PG-2K also works with it. I am very satisfied and can highly recommend Tauntek, especially since it does not change the sound.
Just got a jx3p this thing is amazing the sound of it has 80s all over it great buy
They had addressed this in an update two years ago. What version were you using?
I am editing my comment here as I just installed the latest OS build and like it! came with some new sound sets as well.
the 2nd and 3rd envelop are amazing feature if you want to nail the Jupiter-8 strings and brass sounds. also there is an analog feel that can detune the voices. I like it around 10-18. ...edit: also full midi implementation no more sysex means I made my own plugin to control all the parameters using instigator cntrl map simple control change messages. also my A800-pro keyboard also has a map to it making edits super fast and automated in my daw and completely recallable in projects. I save the presets in the plugin within project.
one trick I do it a rubber band around two knobs and it sends to high pass and low pass creating a band pass filter like the JP-6
awesome, I have also Mks30 and thinking about upgrading it, that display fits nicely instead of cartridge, btw do you think synth has lost certain Roland character or " magic" it had before upgrade?
@@davemaverick8438
It sounds good and very Roland!, and it has the extra envelop similar to the Jupiters. You can do more with the filters .I only use midi modules. I made a cntrl map for it that I can automate in my DAW.
Any chance you'd be willing to share the midi plugin you created? Sounds cool!
I keep hearing about the sound altering but don't know what that means. Can't an example be demonstrated? Would really like to have the portamento feature and have midi + sound edit at same time.
Sold the 3P Kiwi a couple of hours after this video was made. Couldn't stand it.
Well, I was expecting some examples I could not tell apart while thinking that in this channel even the so called bad gear sounds amazing.
The modded 3P is gone by now and I never intended to make any comparisons video, just a friendly warning. ;-)
@@EspenKraft but we want to hear examples of your critiques... Compare the original to the mod, the good to the bad...
Got other videos I'd rather do right now.
If you don't like this then why not get the Organix/Series Circuits MIDI kit, it does nothing to the JX3P sound circuitry. But it lets you control synth parameters from MIDI, you can use the PG200 with MIDI and you get velocity with an external keyboard!
I didn't do it to this either. I got this 3P to do a job with the Kiwi mod that's all. I generally don't want to mod my synths and especially not with MIDI.
This is good to know! Not sure where to find this upgrade but I'll look around. That's all I want for my Jx
@@oldschoolebm666 just google series circuits jx3p. You'll find it
Good thought Espen. I understand where you are coming from and agree with 99.9% of what you say and support. However, I installed KIWI in my Juno 106 last year and IT IS a beast of a synth and still gives me that "Hand on" vintage experience. Still same Voice board of course. ( I get it, its like Eric Clapton put Floyd Rose in his Stratocaster, But EVH would have disagreed.....)
Sure, I respect that others do or think differently than me. I just don't like mods that changes the sound signature of a classic synth and in this case this is very much the case. ;-)
In defence of the mod, I installed it on my 3P which I had owned for around 10 years and it gave it a new lease of life for me.
It is essentially a totally new synth with some fundamental sonic similarities.
If you are in love with the 3P sound, then it might not be for you, but if you want an expanded synth with the 3P sound at core, this is a nice upgrade.
This must be one of the most sensible comments so far, in the matter. You point to it becoming a new synth, with sonic similarities and I agree fully. For some, like you, this is a good thing and what you want and cherish, for some it's the opposite. Totally fair. Cheers
That almost looks like the kiwi 3p synth I build with the exact same wooden side panels, where did you buy it?
I only got it to make a demo video of the new controller from Retroaktiv and to make a Kiwi patch bank. Where the guy I got it from got the wooden cheeks I have no idea. It's gone now. ;-)
Thanks for surfacing this difference between the original and modded behaviors, hadn't heard much negative response regarding these mods before. I think it's a bit strong to say "stay away" without any demonstration of the difference, just leaves me wondering how extreme or subtle it would be to my own ear.
Maybe the envelope curve issue you mentioned is something they could adjust in a firmware update if it were brought to their attention.
Sure, it's just my opinion. I've spent a lot of time with the Kiwi-modded 3P and I know the original very well. Not enough time to make comparison video, nor did I feel very motivated to do one.
Wow, never knew opinions were so divided on the Kiwi3P. I updated my firmware the first week I had mine and have never had an issue with the envelopes. Personally you could not pay me to go back to a single LFO, no separate filter envelope, barely functioning MIDI, only 16 (!!!) user patch slots and when you run out your only option is cassette backup because again, barely functioning MIDI… the stock 3P in my opinion was a flawed synth that made too many compromises to hit a price point and the Kiwi mod addresses all those flaws.
What specifically is people’s gripe with the envelope? The stock 3P only had one so I don’t get why people say the mod ruins the envelopes plural. What types of sounds are the most affected by the mod?
The MiniMoog has no MIDI and no patch slots at all, it's still awesome. ;-)
@@EspenKraft The firmware update addressed the envelope issue, so just update? I don't know why this is so controversial lol
I sold my jx-3p 20 years ago, but isn't there 32 user patches rather than 16? Bank C and D. It's the boutique that only has 16
You’re absolutely right, I was looking at my OB-8 which only has 8 patches per bank. Either way, they get eaten up fast!
No need for updates as I traded this back to a stock 3P. Much better choice. For me.
Interesting conclusion Espen, I have a 106 Kiwi mod, which aside from ease of accessing many of its features I like very much. However I had it so long can’t remember if it’s much different to its original form. (Would be interesting to have unmodded & modded 106’s side by side to compare but doubt I’ll ever have that opportunity.)
Is it not possible to reverse the installation back to factory?
Yes, it is possible and couldn't be easier. The Kiwi3P CPU mod is socketed. Just swap out the Kiwi3P CPU for the original Intel P8031AH CPU (still easily and cheaply available) et voila. The 3P is back to factory standard.
@@ChasD Did this too. Worked without any problems.
hello Espen, have you ever had a chance to try the Kiwimod 106 ?
ive been looking into getting a 106 lately, and reading the list of kiwi features, while on one hand
impressive, especially the dual envelopes, it has also got me worried for exact reasons you have listed here.
the two demos ive heard seem like the basic tonality might have altered a little bit, but can't be 100% sure as there
is so little audio out there. and that overlay really looks crowded. ton of sht.
i do have experience with mks70 and vecoven and didnt like the sound of PWM at all. very unatural and
un-analog for lack of better words. so there's that.
cheers
I don't have any experience with the Kiwi 106 nor will I. At least not on my 106. The overlay looks hideous btw. ;-)
Can you mod an original to receive MIDI and allow you to use the PG200 controller at the same time?
I think the Organix mod lets you do that, but I can't confirm it as I don't have any experience with it.
Sorry if this is only somewhat related, but did anyone ever try out the kiwi mod for the JX10/MKS-70? The specs look darn impressive and that synth really needs some better patch handling and faster envelopes, but would it also make the SuperJX sound bad in any way, like the JX3P kiwi mod does?
Don't do it. Go Vecoven if you must update
Do you feel same way about Gligli mod for Prophet 600?
In general yes. I don't like mods to classic items no matter what they are. Sometimes it's necessary evil like a new display and or a floppy emulator, but adding new features to classic synths are a no-go really. What others choses to do after watching my videos is entirely up to them. I only voice my personal subjective opinions about stuff.
Interesting observation. I had mentioned this difference I heard somewhere on a forum, and is the reason why I have both stock version and kiwi mod version. I had this patch on my stock 3P that sounded like Anne Clark / David Harrow ‘Sleeper In Metropolis’, that I just couldn’t replicate on my Kiwi-3P for the life of me. It took me a long time to get even close to the patch sound. However, in saying this , I am so grateful that I have both versions because the Kiwi Mod kicks arse in so many ways. You really need both versions. ;)
Good to know! But the new module works with the classic too right?
If you mean the new controller from Retroaktiv, it sure does work with the stock synth, I say that in the video don't I? ;-)
Agreed 100%. I installed the Kiwi mod. It actually creates stepping in the envelope which was shocking. But perhaps the worst part is it turns the 3p into a Frankenstein. Ended up selling it and buying a stock 3p. Couldn't be happier.
Hmm.. I wonder who this mysterious friend is... ^_^
Whoever it is has a beautiful living room.
Wonderwall... ;-)
Yeah must be a very special kind of guy. Not following Espen's advice/ taste. I like my black tubbu nova Sh101 :)
@@klinkske 😂🤷🏼♂️ Well, I have no strong feelings for the JX-3P and my approach is that I can always use any synth where I need it - the main goal must be to serve the music and the end product. Also, I have a vanilla MKS-30 so I can have best of both worlds. 😁
@@retroaktivsynthesizers5075 You should come visit some time. ;)
Would had been nice with some sound comparing too. Myself, I traded my JX3P for a multi timbral D10 33 years ago. More recently I got the Boutique JX-03, but traded it for the 128 voice JD-08. The limitations didn’t work for me, who am more into composing than playing.
Any keyboard magazine in the 80s would only have the written word. I do the same, only I say it in a video. ;-) It's my thoughts, that's all. Some will live by it, some will not. No biggie.
@@EspenKraft Yeah, keyboard magazines in the 80’s were the best :)
Hold the phone. Roland released a **Boutique** module with more than four voices of polyphony? My entire concept of space and time has been completely shattered! :D
@@mrz80 the jx-08 boutique has 20 voices, four more than the original jx8p. These boutiques were obviously just artificially crippled for marketing reasons
@@farquoi yep, if you keep it to four voices, then maybe you can sell two of them
How does it change the sound? Is it changes to the envelope speeds? Or tuning drift?
Check earlier comments and replies. It's all there.
Never thought much about(of) the kiwi mod never realized that it compromised the rather thin yet unique sounding JX-3P to the point of affecting it sonically. Compared to it's siblings JX-8P & SuperJupiter, which are both highly underrated, never considered the kiwi for'em either but used to be my main synths until I got a Kurz many moons ago¡ very intriguing stuff though, for a short take EK thanx again dude 😎 [P.S.did it really offer flash memory?¿]
Most of us don’t understand because we didn’t hear any comparison even with a few sounds. 🤷🏽♂️
Do you write to very music tech magazine saying the same when they review gear?
@@EspenKraft I would have liked a demo too. This is a UA-cam channel after all, not a magazine.
@@infindebula Fear not, I will not give up on the usual videos, but you will see more videos like this where I just talk about stuff on my mind. As always I encourage people to find out for themselves and not take a UA-camr's word for it. How people might react to my opinions are not something I'm concerned about though, I just make the videos I feel like doing. ;-)
@@EspenKraft don’t worry my friend, I agree with you about Kiwi, and I’m a subscriber. My opinions are my own, and as always I offer them only constructively.
Whether we realize it or not, YT is a relatively new medium, and its most effective uses are still subject to exploration and debate. I wish there was a simple way to compartmentalize editorial/opinion content like this separately from the practical videos you usually post. You brought up magazines and you’re absolutely right IMHO. In the absence of sonic examples, it would perhaps be more compelling as text. I recognize that that’s not where your audience is of course.
@@infindebula Different opinions and suggestions never harmed anyone so thanks for bringing up ideas. I went into the whole UA-cam-thing knowing some videos would be popular, some would not and certain topics and presentations would polarize opinions among the watchers. And that's all fine. ;-)
The JX3P into the Kiwi3P is my first synth and I have no regrets.
I disagree but thats half the fun with synths. I don't think the envelope changes truly change the character. The oscillators sounded just as stable before the mod, as after. Sad you didn't like it, cause it really turns the 3P into the poor man's Jupiter 6!
I wonder what your thoughts on the gligli mod, as that changes the vintage synths characteristics imo for the better.
Edit: I suppose at the time the mod was cheaper than any of the controllers or buying a real PG200.
Sure, disagreements are often a good thing. Never talked about the oscillators though. The envelopes do change how the synth behaves. I dislike mods that builds upon a classic. Firmware updates that fixes a bug that prevents it from working properly is one thing, but added features I don't like. Things should be left alone when they just work. That's my beliefs. ;-)
@@EspenKraft You talked about it sounding more sterile. They only way I can imagine that happening would be by the new firmware somehow keeping it in tune better since it's DCO, that's why I mentioned the oscillator, cause I can't imagine just the envelopes making it sterile.That does bring a good idea that a linear to exponential feature with the envelopes could be cool if there was any memory left.
In the case of the Prophet 600 it could be argued the original nature of its stepping is part of its character. I know I hated it though.
I understand leaving well enough alone though! I would never change my Model D, but my Rhodes Chroma is next on my list to get some modifications. 😈
I do not know exactly what they've done to the audio path, some say nothing, but the "feel" of the sound is definitely different from the original. Since my first 3P video got so many comments and I do get questions about the Kiwi mod, I wanted to voice my opinion on it. That's it, nothing more. As for original character, I just released a video where I explain why I traded ny Yamaha SY22, I never really liked it. Sometimes that's how it is. I for one would not want anyone to mod that either, it is what it is.
@@EspenKraft I think we (as a gear using community) are so spoiled with so many options, that we tend to see and judge the gear for what it lacks and not for the amazing things it does. I'm not a fan of drastic modifications that change the character, workflow or even deface a classic instrument, but I do like the ones that expand upon the character or functionality (more memory, individual outputs, floppy emulators, cv inputs, etc). Greetings from Mexico.
Does this KIWI-mod originate from New Zealand? (I'm a New Zealander).
That it does!
Generally I dont really like much all those mods changing sound options and character installed into classic gear. I can understand midi retrofits (even im not fan of those as well) and of course I do fully understand replacing soldered battery with battery holder or replacing faulty floopy mechanic with card reader.
Happy to have an original jx3p, thanks for the warning
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this!
I considered getting the KIW mod for the last 8 or so years, but the more I looked into it, the more it seemed unneccesary, and a huge change to the synth itself.
I'm glad I haven't done it.
Good move. Or good not move I'd rather say. ;-)
There's no way to put a rocker switch to enable and disable this kiwi mod?
No, this is a "deep" life-altering (for the synth) mod.
No, because it involves a lot of swapping chips and overlaying other new stuff/soldering.
@@AndersEngerJensen I though it was a kind of additional pcb card with, hm, stuff on it (yes, I'm a top notch electronician!), something you could shunt at will. So, a good solution has to be invented.
No
Espen, Even when I completely disagree with you (this time), I appreciate your willingness to GO THERE and give your honest take on everything 80s.
I appreciate your willingness to disagree in a civil way. Not everyone handles that as gracefully. ;-) Cheers
glad to hear your honest opinion on this. i got a jx8p last year and i considered getting a kiwi 8p but you convinced me to avoid it. i love the sound of the jx8p (and all these vintage rolands) and dont want to ruin it.
It's just my opinion, but I think you've made the right choice. ;-)
For the 8P and SJX synths, the Vecoven mod is really an improvement. He doesn't change anything other than adding more stable midi implementation. You can get the Vecoven PWM mod, which adds features, but it does not alter the original sound. All envelopes, parameter curves etc, remain identical.
Same is my experience with the Teensy Mod for the Prophet 600. I have removed it again!
I don't really think that something like the Kiwi mods are for perfectly functional synths. Rather for repair or replacement of faulty units. I have a polysix that I had from new and it's knackered now. I aim to get a Kiwisix as it will be cheaper and (eventually) faster than diagnosing and repairing if even possible. I'm sure that one of the reasons these modded, or repaired, synths sound different is due to the new components bringing the instrument back to "spec".
I never really liked the sound of the JX(n)P to be honest. I thought it sounded, as you say, too clinical as compared to the Juno or Jupiter range. Made me think it sounded a bit digital, unlike my Korg or my cousins Juno 6 at the time. Even the cold JP 6 sounded warmer to me. I guess that over the years as the components age the instrument earns a certain "warmth". The analogy that strikes me is that of a key and a lock. Over time, they wear against each other. After a while if you replaced the original key with a clone of its original state, then it would be a bad fit. I speak from experience here, lol.
I guess what I mean is that when making a repair or, god forbid, modding a perfectly functional synth, you'd better be prepared to accept that the sound is likely to be different than it was, especially if the repairs are in the signal path.
I agree. I remember meeting the guy that was working on the mods. He was building he new board into damaged or completely dead synths. At the time JX3Ps and JUNO 106s were still less than $500 in good condition. A busted one could be as low as $100 - $150
Thanks for sharing some solid arguments here. I get what you mean. Cheers :)
Hi Espen, I'm not totally in disagreement with you. If you want "that" sound you really do need an unmodded instrument. It's just exponentially difficult and expensive to find, match and replace faulty components over time. It's sad to think that one day ALL of the beautiful vintage analogue synths will likely die a final death. More places like the synth museum in Switzerland need to exist, and be accessible. LMNC is doing a fantastic job with his museum, but I shudder to think about how much it must cost. We really need some über rich people to get in on this. But not for profit.
But like you say, if you have an original old synth that works and doesn't need a replacement sound board then be very wary.
Tschüss!
@@lo-firobotboy7112 I remember someone trying to offload an old synth on me back in the mid to late 80s. It didn't even have a keyboard. I wasn't having any of it. He wanted 100 quid. It was an EMS Synthi, and I was a total idiot!
Thank you! I’ve been on the fence but don’t wanna lose that 3P charm. Just got my Retroaktiv controller!
Cheers!
AGREED!!! I bought a Juno-106 with the Kiwi mod and I hate it.
Interesting. I personally don't see the point of a lot of the extra features of this mod. The 3p is pretty good stock. Maybe some need the extra envelopes etc but for me if I needed this kind of thing I would just use another synth. I already have the 3p & PG200. Adding the mod and the new hardware controller, which really is needed to avoid all that button diving will add up to quite a few ££.
I really wanted to love this synth JX-3P stock, but the midi implementation ( switching modes to use the programmer ) really put me off.
Don't hold back Espen!
Very interesting, Espen. I have two original JX-3P's because I intended to install a Kiwi upgrade on one of them, for years now. I never had the time to do this... fortunately!
The kiwi 3p Matrix makes it a 3eg, 3 lfo synth with a mod matrix. Kind of hard to say that’s a bad mod.
Sure, I could (if I was clever and handy) put an electric motor in my Ford Mustang '69 as well, and I'd get more horsepowers and torque. I'd totally destroy a classic vintage car at the same time though and it would lose it's appeal to just about everyone. The magic would be gone. All just because I could.
@@EspenKraft “destroy”.. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I only kept my Juno 60 and JX3P for about 2 weeks each because they just didn’t do enough for me. Now that there’s the Kiwi 3P Matrix I just bought it again. Plus I got the synth, the original programmer, and the Matrix mod for only a little over 1k including shipping and installation. Pretty awesome. Like many other people have said in the comments, the eg issues are solved and I would take a Kiwi mod over a stock 3p any day.
If it makes you happy then do it. ;-)
Why re-build such a classic synth?? Mic Michaeli's brass sound in tandem with the Yamaha TX81z after the band kicks in ... what may be "not pleasing to the ear" about the filters and envelopes are what holds the idiosyncrasies which makes this instrument so special :/ And KIWI is the name of another classic analog synth ensemble by SIEL, re-labeled as the ARP Quartet (Vandenberg, Jimmy Page, Ultravox)
I believe you provided the "custom bank of Kiwi 3P patches" for Rob's PG-2K controller Espen. If that is the case then you have clearly spent some quality time with the Kiwi 'modded sound' and it would have been beneficial to have made it clear in the video.
For what it's worth I totally disagree that one should "stay away". I do agree that without Rob's PG-2K or at least a Behringer BCR etc MIDI controller, editing from the front panel alone is a horrible experience.
Like a couple of others here, I am fortunate to have both Kiwi and Organix 3Ps.
Absolutely. I have no problems with opinions that differs from mine. I did indeed do the Kiwi-bank for the new controller so I've spent a lot of time with the Kiwi mod, hence my conclusions. MY conclusions. ;-)
@@EspenKraft Despite you not loving a lot of the new features on the Kiwi mod, I do think that the sounds you provided for the PG-2K are awesome, and many customers have written me to tell me that they love that sound bank!
Many thanks! Interestingly I never say in this video that the Kiwi modded 3P is a bad synth, or that it does bad sounds. I say it's inferior to the original. ;-) I'm very pleased with the bank I did and I think the sounds would be very suitable for many genres and I'm very happy to hear you're getting good feedback on them. :)
That's interesting and good to know. I always wondered whether and how many of these mods affected the fundamental nature of the sound, something I wouldn't want to mess with. The gligli mod on my Prophet 600 doesn't seem to affect the sound itself and does fix some prior limitations and bugs, but I agree with you: Don't change the classic sound by removing the ghost in the machine!
Getting a p600 tomorrow and wondering if I should do this mod eventually. Everyone keeps saying I should but I haven’t even played it yet to wonder if I should.
@@vsjeieb1628 I like this mod. It adds capability and fixes some buggy things, to my perception, without modifying the fundamental sound of the synth. Search online for opposing views, but everyone I know is happy with it. You can always switch the chip back out to the old one if you don't like it.
A mod like that should be done after extensive playing and experience with a synth. Then you conclude based on your, now, knowledge of what you've learned, liked, not liked etc. To even consider modding a synth you don't even know is a bad move.
@@EspenKraft Agreed. 👍🏻
It is nice how the gligli mod is solderless and that the cpu is on a socket. That one doesn’t worry me too much for that reason, but no plans to rush into anything before discovering the synth as it was intended. Only mod I really feel like I have to do is a midi mod on the JX3P to be able to use controller and midi at the same time. Not looking forward to doing that one but feels very necessary to me. Just not sure which one to go with yet.
finally some validation! For years i’ve considered, but ultimately kept my beloved JX3P from being kiwi modded. I’ve never played one, but would listen to demos and most importantly comb over the list of features, and it just seemed to chip away at the simplicity which makes the JX3P wonderful in pursuit of features features features.
You made the right decision! I Kiwi modded both my 3p and my 8p and almost instantly regretted it. I have since reverted them back to factory.
Красивые часы⌚👍🏻
классный обзор👍🏻🎹🎤
Would you be in favor of the kiwi mod if they got it to sound exactly like the stock JX-3P should, but with all the useful extra features? It should not be such a difficult thing to do.
I generally don't like to mod a classic synth in a way that requires soldering. Or changing the looks. Period. If the mod could be done without soldering and with a switch that toggled between the mod and stock, then maybe. I don't think the Kiwi mod has any useful extras at all to be honest.
@@EspenKraft I feel a lot better about never modding my JX-3P now, even though I wanted to. Roland did it right the first time.
I think they did so too.
@David Dever Lack soldering skills? :P I have a degree in electronics and I've taught it for 6 years in school. I've build my own digital control center, from scratch, to control a big model railway and I've programmed games in machine code/assembler. I do know a little about electronics as well as design and implementation of features in already coded installations. Did you get the impression from my over 300 videos that I'm a noob? Maybe you did. I really don't care. And another thing, I don't have a "brand", I'm Espen Kraft, a person with opinions, skill and imagination. If my opinions on occasion comes off as negative, then it is because I want them to be taken as that. Negativity is just as important as positivity, how else can you distinguish between the two?
Roland did get it right the first time is my opinion and I see no reason to mod that, in any form, and that's my concern and why I'm negative to the Kiwi mod, in any form, revision or feature-set.
@@EspenKraft Oh, you’re a model railroader too? So am I.
Totally agree in general. A mod should only add (missing/new modern) features not change the original soundpicture at all. It can add and extend but never alter the originality.
That is exactly what the Kiwi mod does when installed correctly with the latest firmware. It only adds features without changing the sound of the synth. If you want to ignore all the new features you can program it like a stock one and it will sound identical.
The envelopes is what he is ranting about here...but the envelopes changed with the firmware update. So...what firmware is he talking about? hes bagging The Kiwimod probably because he has the wrong firmware...thats really harsh and just misleading/wrong
My opinions can never be right, or wrong, because they're just that, my opinions. You have yours, and they're neither right or wrong either, they're just your opinions.
@@EspenKraft what firmware is your opinion based on then?
I have no idea, I had it to work on a Kiwi patch bank and the Retroaktiv controller video. It's gone now.
@@DarrenGlen The firmware he was running was the second from the last. The only things fixed on the latest version were a few sysex parameters that were wrong.
@@neanalog ok well this should be stated in the video or description perhaps?
Which firmware are you using? The later firmware addresses the envelopes issue (the envelopes are software generated so they were an issue at the start). It would also be good to hear some comparisons of what you do not like. It's also slightly bizarre to hear you slagging off a synth you've just issued a sound bank for (via Retroaktiv!). Just to say "stay away" is really not an objective review.
I've recently done the KIWI mod to the JX-3P I've had since new, and - while it takes a while to get used to - I love it. IMHO it does not change the sound in any way of concern if you programme it with just the one LFO and Envelope etc. You can in effect turn all the new stuff off. It does lose some finesse due to now being 0-127 on parameters rather then 0-255 (the difference between MIDI control and PG-200). But the increase in capability is worth it. The same is not true of other Kiwi mods (the new "matrix" mod for the 3P for example) so I won't be going there (unless on another instrument!).
:)
Who says anything about being objective? I'm not a journalist, my opinions are highly biased, as I very often point out in my videos. ;-) I only makes videos about topics I find interesting. What people do with my opinions is entirely up to them.
My job for Retroaktiv was just that, a job. My Kiwi bank is great imo and there's a lot of useful patches there. I never said the Kiwi modded 3P wasn't capable of being a useful tool. I just don't like it, for various reasons. I don't like electric cars either and I warn people about getting them, but they can of course be great means of transportation from A to B.
@@EspenKraft Hm. OK.
@@EspenKraft oh man those electric car enthusiasts, they still dont get that their precious electric cars are not at all environment friendly, using electricity made by coal plants, taking all earth resources for battery, and waste produced...
I hear you, Espen! Ideally I would now love to hear examples why you think that way! What is a huge difference for one might not be for someone else… ;)
Absolutely. One should always try something out for oneself, instead of trusting "UA-camrs". ;-) I'm not going to do any comparisons video though. This 3P is long gone now and I only have the stock 3P left. These are only my thoughts in the matter.
I think he has a very valid viewpoint, and its informed by decades of industry experience. Anyone that has collected vehicles, firearms, video game consoles, etc. and come across things that have been customized to such an extent that it changes the nature of the item in question understands how polarizing it can be. I think it brings up another point - why bother? Why not simply build a new version like what Behringer does? Or create a soft-synth VST? Yes people are free to do as they wish and create markets for mods and add ons, but likewise others can offer opinions about such things freely. Very much appreciated.
Cheers!
Wait, what? This is just a rant without any examples. If you are going to denounce a synth so vehemently it seems appropriate to at least give some sound and functionality examples.
I don't have to do anything really. These are just my thoughts. Anyone following my channel for the last 5 years or so know I have strong both strong opinions and experience. How people digest that is up to them. I often do comparisons videos, sometimes I do not.
@@EspenKraft Yeah, but to just diss another company outright and mess with their revenue stream is obnoxious.
@@djnickmonte Totally disagree with you. I'm not dissing any company, I'm saying I dislike this mod, and why. The same as someone saying they don't like my music and warning people not to buy it. Totally fair. It's someone's opinion.
I agree. I have an MKS-30 with a kiwi mod and I removed it because it totally changed the sound and I didn’t like it. I have a stock JX-3P also. They are awesome synths.
same , Ive got Mks30 and intended to install kiwi30, but not so sure now by reading comments, does it really change much of Rolands character? whats the most offputting aspect of upgrade?
@@davemaverick8438 its difficult to program , extremely annoying but just get it and see for yourself, you may like it.
@@Novaheart1998 thanks for info, i ve bought mks30 for that Roland character in sound, inspired by sounds from Roland guitar synth Gr700 which has the same guts, just hoping it wont lose that 80s Roland magic after upgrade
Oh that's tough. Musically pleasing Envelope behavior is quite important. That's why I mostly use the Tracking gen of my Matrix
❤ original here as well 😊
No comparison just trashing the kiwi mod?
Any keyboard magazine in the 80s would only have the written word. I do the same, only I say it in a video. ;-) It's my thoughts, that's all. Some will live by it, some will not. No biggie.
@@EspenKraft Yes in the 80s they'd definitely do written word but you run UA-cam channel in the 2020s and I think a sound demonstration between a stock jx3p and kiwi modded one head on would have been awesome from your perspective.
Sure, and most of the time I do that as well. Sometimes, I just wrap my thoughts up in a 2 min video like this though. I have too much other things I'd rather spend my time on shooting this summer. People will have to draw their own conclusions from testing the mod out themselves, in this case.
I offer my opinions, that's what I do. I'm not a scientist or a journalist. I make videos, that's it.
I have 2 03's which are identical to the 3P, so I'm going to get the Kiwi-30...$199 to turn this thing into a Roland Matrix 6...bring it!
I installed Kiwi-30 on my MKS-30, and was not a fan of it either. It didn't help that I broke a trace trying to install it, though I eventually got it working. I sold it a little later because I just fell out of love. The original JX-3P / MKS-30 has that classic Italo Disco character I like. I am really considering selling my Jupiter-8 if the prices cross my magic barrier, and getting JX-3P.
oh man I was just thinking about upgrading Mks30, so Roland vintage magic really is affected by upgrade?
@@davemaverick8438 The tone is still there, but I'm not a fan of the everything-including-the-kitchen-sink mentality the Kiwi mods add. The envelopes did also feel funny after the mod.
@@davemaverick8438not at all
I love the idea of the Kiwi mods, but in practice, I agree with Espen. I have a Kiwi 3p and it is kind of buggy to use. It’s more of a synth curiosity than a working part of my studio. Mine likes to randomly start droning. ???
No demo :(
"you can clearly hear that if you compare the kiwi modded 3p to the original" -> doesn't demonstrate :(
There are two completely different Kiwi-mods for the 3P.
The Kiwi-3P and the KIWI-3P Matrix. Maybe you should mention that your rant is about the old one. Just in case the new one is better.
The new one is called Kiwi 3P Matrix. I never mention that in this video.
The Kiwi-30 and Kiwi-Matrix fix some things that could be improved on the Kiwi-3P for sure.
I agree... Why mod a vintage synth? You get the synth for what it does already. If I need a different sound, use a different synth. Or use the VST versions ;)
Simple, there was a period where analog polysynths started to get memory added to them with the use of quite slow 8-bit processors. These processors can't cope with a lot of MIDI activity and limit the instrument. Oberheim Matrix 1000 and 6 etc are prone to this. As is the Prophet 600. These days we have more processing power.
No need to use MIDI, just PLAY the synth. ;-)
@@6581punk Oh, I do understand the theory behind mod-ing a synth. But that is the point I think I and Espen are saying. You buy vintage synths for their character. Not for the "possibility".
I have been sequencing with vintage synths since the mid 80s. I fully understand the capabilities of various boards. In fact, I have 12 "vintage" synths currently that I still use. And to your point, modding to change the abilities of a synth is actually changing the synth. If there is only 4 voice polyphony in a synth, that is how you use it. So that is why I say, get a different synth or use a VST. The charm is in the original specs.
I agree completely with this. The charm lies in what features and sound it had originally. Admittedly, over time these old synths develops components that deviates from original specs and as such even the same model can sound different from the next, but that's something else. I've become very purist. I simply don't like mods, either on classic synths, nor cars. ;.-)
I do support adding connectivity to older synths. I've added MIDI interfaces to things like my Realistic MG-1, Casio SK-1 and Yamaha CS01. It improves functionality within an automated studio without affecting the look or sound of the instrument.
I was surprised, why you got the Kiwi-Mod. For me the beauty of a JX-3P is directly connected to the limitation of those basic features. The only thing i am missing on my JX-3P is to play it via MIDI while using the programmer.
I only got it to make a demo video of the new controller from Retroaktiv and to make a Kiwi patch bank. It's gone now. ;-)
I think the same general idea applies to guitars and amps too: The classics became classics for a reason and they are classics because they are what they are. Any changes are taking you away from that. It's not a racing car where the only goal is to go faster and there is a clear meaning of improvement. With Instruments, it's better to start fresh and you may create a new classic!
I also had this feeling with my Matrix 1000 Kiwi Mod - Since I own two pieces, I was able to compare well, I will remove the Kiwi Mod again ...
Interesting! I jwas about to do the same thing.
@@infolla6769 And I`m not a hater ! Love the Kiwi Mods with all it's possibilities !
@@AllureMusicLab only thing that appeals to me is the front panel editing and battery free flash memory. Other extra features are not necesary to me. Thanks for your opinion!
I never listened to a modded synth that sounds better than original. Refurbished can better than broken, but not the original.
Honesty. Truth. And no fake smiles.
This is why I love this channel!
Cheers man!
i thought you were sarcastic, and i was waiting for you to say sike! but wow, i guess youre just kind of a boomer man.
one day i know ill be an old man yelling at the clouds too, so i cant judge you too harshly
Ok, so in your opinion I can't tell my audience what I think about a product? How is being a moron working out for you?
Nothing quite sounds like the 3P, don't make it try and sound like something else
For exact same reason I have decided to not use Kiwi mod, but use Organix mod instead.
Ooo what’s the organix mod? Never heard of that one
@@ModernDevotion It adds more MIDI capabilities (e.g. MIDI CC to control parameters). It is sold under a different name now, try "JX-3P MIDI Upgrade Kit".
It worth mentioning that when controlling JX3P via MIDI CCs, continuous parameters will have half of the resolution vs. when adjusted on the JX3P itself (0-127 range vs. 0-255).
I Agree .
Glad I kept mine original lol
always a new vid this guy is a legend. He's the master
Cheers!
Agreed! My experience with Kiwi mods has also been awful. Not worth it!
The Kiwi Mod completely ruined the sound of my JX-8p! It was so bad, I removed it almost immediately (also ruining my factory front panel graphic while pulling off the kiwi overlay). What a waste!
hello,very interested to hear this. There are videos of the KIWI'd JX-8Ps and they sound 'good' They don't sound like a JX-8P which in my opinion sounds epic. Yes the 8p is better at some things than others, but most folk have several synths and surely can compensate with a different machine if required. I have the KIWI mod and was about to install it on my 8p but I think I will just hold off.
@@waheex Per my experience, all Kiwi mods are more trouble than they are worth... The Kiwisix upgrade is also epically bad. Terrible UIs and intereupted analog signal paths result in neutered classics that sound worse and are impossible to use without the menu cheat sheet. Plus poor cutomer support and unreliable hardware to boot! I know multiple people that have had Kiwi ROM failures after just a couple years post upgrade. Kiwitechnics refused to cover anything & both individuals were forced to pay out of their own pockets for repairs.
total click bait, if i were Kiwi mod company I would sue this guy for slander
I'm Espen Kraft. You're not. Remember that.
Must be a New Zealand thing. That microphone, ouch.
Yes the mod succs! You are right.
Kiwi, Tubbutec etc. are crap that ruins synths. Very well said
STAY AWAY FROM ALL KIWITECHNICS MODS! The added digital circuitry absolutely affects the audio signal. Plus, the support is non existant.
A mod that affects the stock audio signature, and as such changes that, is a no go in my book. ;-)
Always had a prompt response from him, and he always went beyond to help out.
@@harmonicuniverse then you're an outlier because I know at least a dozen people who have had very different, very negative experiences, including myself. Murray is curt in his communications, even when dealing with situations when his own product has failed. Just wait until yours fails and you are forced to reprogram it on your own, at your own expense.