Music In A 4D World - 4D Golf Devlog #4
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- Опубліковано 10 бер 2023
- For a multidimensional game like 4D Golf, we decided to build a soundtrack to give it the same dynamic feeling using some interesting techniques. Once again, the musical mastermind philmakesnoise, who created the Hyperbolica OST, is now bringing the 4D Golf soundtrack to life.
#4dgolf
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UA-cam: / @philmakesnoise
Website: www.phil-makes.com/noise
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i like how we are so far deep that quaternions are the confort zone
This man is really out here creating the next level of entertainment and I'm all aboard the 4d hypetrain for it.
Following the nomenclature for primitive 4D shapes, that would be called a hypertrain.
I agree
I read this as hypertrain
@@AlexanderQ689 That's what I was gonna say lol
For a math nerd like me, these videos are tesserac-tion packed! 😮
Just imagine 4D golf with friends. Everyone on a slightly different plane and each others balls popping in and out!
When you hanging out with your boys and you're all popping your balls in and out together ~ ❤️
imagine your ball and your friend's ball accidentally colliding, and both leaving the respective plane that the friends are in, and you and your friend are both confused about where it went
@@MichaelDarrow-tr1mn Huh neat I didn’t think about that happening! The field is already 3D and each moment we look just at a 2D slice of it, and the plane spanned with balls’ velocities would almost always be not one of the players’ planes of view.
_🤨_
@@FleshWizard69420GOLF BALLS.
Cleans yo goddamn mind.
I love the idea of the music changing based on the way you're facing! It reminds me of being at a concert with multiple musicians playing, and as you turn your head, some of them get louder/quieter
Hi, Cary
I think the music idea is really cool too!
Hello youtuber I watched over 7 years ago 😵💫
Hi cary!
As a mathematician and a musician, I find this to be all sorts of wonderful!
This
@@05degreesis
I highly recommend making a 'snap to hole' feature, maybe you press a button while moving through 4d space and it'll stop once it reaches the hole, so that you dont just jump/skip over it (maybe have a music note dedicated for when the hole is 'open'
Already have this feature :)
I'm usually not one to care much about music. I was dismissive about the video until you demonstrated how 'strong' the adaptive music is. I feel a lot of adaptive music is so subtle that most never notice. Each of the stems are so unique that I can hear the movement in game. I can almost imagine trying to go back to a spot and going "I remember that angle having a bit of the plinking noise, none of the wavy noise, and a lot of the guitar thing." and listening intently to get to the correct angle.
I'm very excited for the music. I hope they are all this unique.
Exactly! I don't want it subtle
Honestly, that's a great idea; using the adaptive audio to recenter yourself in the normally hard-to-navigate game world.
this game is gonna be so much fun on psychedelics and with friends holy shit
Did you do that with Hyperbolica or Marble Marcher before?
gods, i should try playing Hyperbolica next time i'm on acid
Why are you all forgetting about red ribbon week? Red ribbon week every week!
@@PunmasterSTP I'm saving hyperbolica for when I do mushrooms for the first time
quote cave story would not do drugs
Brilliant. I love the idea of dynamic music, it just felt jumpy as you demonstrated it. If it's possible to smooth the transitions or make the differences less drastic I think it'd be better
Thanks! I made the effect a bit stronger for the video so it would be more obvious, I think it will be more subtle in the game.
@@CodeParadea low pass filter with a time constant of seconds on the input I think would do a lot help smooth that out.
@@CodeParade don't make it too subtle, I already thought it was hard to tell
@@iamdigory Yeah, I barely noticed a difference in most of the rotations tbh
I actually thought it was GOOD because of the strength of it!
Now I'm curious how sound travels in four dimensions. All I can predict is it'd get quieter a lot faster over distance as the drop-off would be 1/r^3 instead of 1/r^2
I suppose you'd have a fourth class of instruments, since we currently have instruments that are 1D-based(strings), 2D-based(drums), & 3D-based(brass & woodwind?), so what would a 4D-based instrument be like?
I think that in a 4D world, the the brass/woodwind would be this 4D instruments you are thinking of, drums would be a flat 3D surface, and then you would have two classes of strings, 1D strings and 2D strings.
In 4D, a 2D surface acts much more like a string than it does as a cloth sheet. For example, you cannot make knots with 1D strings, but you can make knots with 2D surfaces. (Which is admittedly really hard to visualize. Numberphile has a video on that topic: "Braids in higher dimensions")
And therefore I think, this secret 4th class of instruments would actually be 2D strings vibrating in 4D.
So what would the 1D instruments be like in 4D
Well, what are 0D instruments like? And what would they be like in 4D? Hmm...
Probably a much higher bar for Phil, but would be interesting if the notes and melody also had layers spread out throughout the different dimensions. Kinda like a piano and a violin can play by themselves, or as part of a composition, different 4D vectors could overlay different aspects of the overall piece, adding different moods to each coordinate.
Without other added constraints that indeed seems to be too vast a design space to create in easily. But the idea definitely should be explored by someone, maybe in some VR soundscape museums! 👏
This idea with the music is an extremely good one, it really does make the space more understandable.
Math and music are so intrinsically entwined. Any musical experimentation with mathematical concepts will probably yield something cool - the mind loves patterns. I love what's going on here where the situation in game affects EQ and other properties of the tracks independently of each other.
people always talk like this. you always know it's someone who doesn't know much about drugs and music.
@@atomictraveller what do you mean?
@@MrRyyi the more precise way to respond to this query would be to post the link to a smithsonian article asserting that thc improves hearing, but it was published a little before attitudes changed and isn't available any more.. there are countless anecdotes you can find about "jazz cigarettes" or weed and music.
one may also consider the number of classic rock musicians who used heroin, et al.
the sense of hearing and drugs are both close to the soul, i'd expect. sure math is too, but, "math problems" is old hispter speak for smoking weed (m = 13th letter). i won't even touch a c compiler without indica.
smoke some weed and think about music, that's what i mean :)
When I saw this video, I was like: "Oh, it's 4D. Maybe he'll talk about Quaternions!"
Thank you so much! I'm always happy when someone talks about quaternions.
I've never been so excited for a golf game
I'd really love seeing a plant care game in 4d with actual evolving plants. Imagine having to trim 4d plants or bugs.
Imagine a 4D SimAnt or city builder game!
@samter city builder would be cool. Imagine learning 4D building techniques not only just like the whole logistical analysis of being able to travel on another plane to redirect traffic. But what if you made a sim game of physics based building. You'd have to learn 4d building techniques to make sure your building doesn't fall over in the 4th dimension.
@@AlienAnthony Yeah that would be intense! Hopefully @codeparade would consider it in the future.
I can imagine spending a long time just tinkering with rotations just to see what it does to the music
when you released hyperbolica i told you it would be really cool to use xenharmonic scales to reference certain types of geometry. you didn't do that because the soundtrack was already done. you could do it now for the extra dimension. this would give people a great sense of where in that dimension they are and it would also be an absolutely stunning listening experience
Like encode the shape in the scale somehow? Some shapes can be described with a few numbers, would be neat to take the JI intervals those numbers generate and have a unique scale for each shape.
@@nickpatella1525 cool thing about xenharmony is it can be anywhere. on the whole numbers there are octaves, like 12tet, the system everyone uses, but if this was implemented in the game it could just freely interpolate between 5edo and 22edo or something like that linked to the current position in the additional space dimension, even stuff like 7.845edo
This music system actually looks SO effective, it is so cool how you're pulling these things off (you guys both) THROUGH that crucial lens of like... actually good game design? To be honest, I was a bit worried when you were describing the trippy sort of vibe that you wanted the music to have, because while that sounds GREAT (I love avant-garde soundtracks - shoutout Hylics 2), I bet that goal alone could get in the way of it actually sounding good.
But that demo towards the end of the video was so frickin cool. Very bouncy and whacko and jubilant in that forest, and honestly I think those changes in audio are going to serve as really useful grounding tools for the player. It was dynamic, but apparently stemming from an immutably good foundation.
I'm just glad you're always keeping the player experience in-sight, despite tackling something so technically unique that it could very understandably draw your attention away.
The changing music is a super clever little way to have more of a 'feel' for your 4d orientation. Stoked to see this game progress
Smart idea using dynamic music to help orient oneself, also because I love when games use dynamic music
So I sort of had an understanding of Hyperbolic space, even if it was completely knew to actually explore it.
I can't even begin to imagine how 4D works, even watching the clips in these Dev logs. I can't wait to get my hands on it and hopefully get a grasp on it.
Get a grasp on it from March 22nd then
3:40 This music example is really immersive! Honestly adding the music has made this a must play for me when it comes out.
Dynamic music is a must have. Tunic uses dynamic music and it absolutely adds another dimension(no pun intended).
I really want this game to come out just to improve my intuition of 4D space.
Then improve your intuition of 4D space from the 22nd of March onwards
I really love how much effort goes into your videos - that said - I personally wouldn't mind a drop in quality if it meant more explanations of individual tasks/issues you had - mostly because I love understanding the brain processes of someone who can comfortably work in 4D on different levels 😅
Honestly, any info about this upcoming game including little details you find is something I and probably many others would enjoy. Keep up the good work!
Yes! I love dynamic videogame music, and the idea of mapping it to 4D coordinates to also possibly help with navigation is exactly the stroke of genius I'd hope for. I'm so looking forward to this game coming out!
The game will be coming out on the 22nd of March
4d music?!??! First vid I’ve seen after I subscribed. I just love anything with music
Dynamic music can be awesome if implemented well, and this looks like a really neat way of doing it - perfectly fitting with the game's gimmick. Excited to see what it looks like when complete.
This is absolutely breathtaking!! I can't wait for its release to buy it on the spot! You're the most creative indie developer I've ever seen :3
You've got to buy it on the spot of the 22nd of March then
I have been seeing creators who make shorts on topics they struggle to make into full videos. So there's that option
In principle I would agree, but the current design of the Shorts user interface/experience is absolutely abhorrent.
(no rewind, interface elements overlapping the video, hard-to-access video description)
Which, admittedly, is UA-cam's fault, not the creators.
@Adam Shorts are a bad UX experience for sure, but the probable benefits could outweigh it in the long-run. (The Mysterious UA-cam Algorithm)
@@lucky.plushy Oh well.
Hyperbolica music was fire, so I'm def hype for this game
Your approach to varying the music reminded me of how LucasArts did something similar in Monkey Island 2 when the player character would move from one environment to another (e.g., from the market to the spitting contest). I think it's a powerful and memorable method.
This is awesome! I love the idea of using a dynamic mix to help the player orient themselves. I bet a healthy chunk of players will be so busy to wrap their head around the game mechanics that they won't even notice how much their subconscious takes hints from the music
this is making my curious musician brain happy :) i can definitely see myself getting stuck on a level and messing about with the 4th dimension to make my own wee arrangement of the music
i love love love the music demo at 3:40
4:39, you should make the hole visible threw dimentions, like you did for the ball at 3:50, so that the player knows where to go
that's a bit like saying you want to be able to see what's in front of you with your eyes in the back of your head. you gotta turn in the right direction!
That is already the case, notice on 3:55 onward, there is a shadow of the hole on the right side of the screen.
You don't see it at 4:39, because that clip has ALL projective shadows turned off.
@@Adam-zt4cn you’re right! Thank you
Nice! I love the vids man, great job 😄
I love all things music related so its really inspirational for me to see the soundtrack modulate relative to the 4d environment. And of course some crazy math stuff that I don't understand. Good luck!
Despite having 4 components, quaternions are very much 3D objects, perfect for describing axis-angle (exponential) and vector-to-vector (quotient) rotations. Questions have an ND analog called "rotors," which in 4D have 8 components, which you could split into two quaternions if you really wanted to only use what's familiar.
Something to keep in mind is that axes of rotation in 4D are planes, not lines, and in fact a 4D rotor contains in itself a 6-component representation of that planar axis (if there's only 1. If there are 2, a new concept in 4D, it can be trickier to extract them).
I was just playing a bit of hyperbolica this morning, funny timing
Wow, that preview of the dynamic music was incredible 👏
Yes, it was hyperballin’!
oh wow I really love what you're doing with the tracking in 4d space. it'd be really helpful if you could like... see the different instruments and the orientation mattered to how you'd hear them... that might be waaay too hard though
I swear this guy is literally a little part of my brain I think of.
I can totally see a sidequest the player makes up to hunt for all types of soundtrack variations 😂. I’m up for this game just to play with the sound.
Brilliant stuff. As usual.
This is so cool. And i absolutely love well done dynamic music, and this one is really smart and simple; love it!
An interesting tidbit i learned some years back is that typically music tracks either have guitar, or they have piano. It's rare to have both since they serve similar roles in music composition and don't come together easily.
Got me thinking: imagine if one (eg guitars) was at a corner (1, 1, -1, -1) and the other (keyboards) was at a corner (-1, -1, 1, 1)... or something. There must be a plane through the origin that bisects these extremes perfectly.
What you hear is a function of the distance between a relevant corner and the zero plane. If you cross over that equator, suddenly you've got a countermelody, now on keys. The two could be playing different things but to an ambiguous percussion!
I dunno. I just think the concept is neat. I'm not a musician, I'm just a derp. 👀
Adaptive music is amazing, but this takes it to the next level. It fits perfectly, super useful for the player! 😍
wow man. much love from your hexa-primary color geek in north idaho! cant wait for this.
Golf devlog? More like “Gorgeous music that’s at the top!” 👍
Love the music and art style!
when I was working with 4D i created my own class for handling 4d rotations and defined a rotation with to verctors, essentially you rotate from vector a to b, both are normalized. I found this very effective for what I was doing. Also included a lot of other functionality. I put it on gpu as well.
How about panning different layers of the music left and right? This might be more intuitively geometric. So the x-coordinate of a point on S^2 might determine how left/right the guitar is, and the y-coordinate determines the drums etc. Then you will remember a direction as being e.g. "left in guitar-space, far right in drum-space, about middle in piano-space." To be compatible with mono speakers, simply let the mono-sound be that of the left stereo-speaker. Then the example above in mono becomes "loud guitar, silent drums, medium piano." In any case, great work! And good luck!
this is so sick!! having the music flow like that is gonna be a gameplay staple for sure
Fantastic idea to change the music with the 4th dimension. It really suits the whole game idea!
Awesome collaboration! Bravo😎
I really want to see the parade robot again. Not to be confused with the characters from Hyperbolica.
a multiplayer mode would be amazing. like the game golf with your friends. i wonder how this could be even implemented.
Can't wait for his next game:
4d marblemarcher in nil geometry.
This reminds me of how you can make the music sound differently in the Splatoon loading screens
Looks amazing!
Can't wait!
THIS IS SO COOOOOOOL you guys are awesome
The 4th dimension is time. Hate to break it to you but you explore it every single moment of your life.
HECK YEAH MUSIC I JUST PRESSED PLAY BUT IM ALREADY EXCITED
Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.
If you want to do some short quick devlogs that would be great! I'd love to hear from you more often.
This seems sick, I think it would honestly be easier for me to navigate a 4D space using sound memory
You're super talented! 🙂
Wooow, this idea is so cool 🤩
So hyped for this game!
I'd love more devlogs!!!
I love music that transcends my plane of understanding
awesome 👍👍
Cant wait to watch this
I'm gonna have watch all these (again?) after I've had a go hands on
I totally trust I'll understand it when it's in my hands but right now it's making my head feel like a sperical cow in a frictionless vacuum
After Hyperbolica, anything can be imaginable.
Well the music sounds amazing already so you know I’ll be there to buy the game!
Then be there for that on the 22nd of March
Glad there is news on that project
Very nice. I think there should be hard flanger-effects while scrolling through dimensions. After scolling, the flanger disappears and only the other effects stay.
Idea: use different songs everytime you stop 4d shifting
Bruh, never occurred to me how spatial audio or something would work in 4D
I love the crystal desert already
This is awesome
so interesting!! what about also changing pitch according to orientation? would create a sense of instability too for some levels I guess
I love the music
Phil the absolute legend
Yay I'm on right side of ideas
This idea is marvelous
The idea of music changing with the angle is really cool!
i thought this was gonna be about a 4d extension of spherical/cubic harmonics which is used for one spatial audio format, but cool either way
This made me think, what the hell would a 4d instrument sound? No wait. How the hell would sound spread through the 4th dimension?
Cool!
I like this idea. I think it would be really cool to add some microtonal elements to some of the tracks a la Sevish or Zheanna Erose. Done well, it’s approachable but alien
Speedrunning this is gonna be wild
Thats fucking genius, mate
that is some good weirdcore music
try adding a 3d analygraph option. adding the ability for depth perception will make it a slight bit less of a 2d projection of 4d space
do you have any plans for vr support in the future or after release? hyperbolica works so well in vr
I understand that he does plan to add that somewhen after the release
AMAZING😶🌫
So much Genius
Pikmin 2 levels of audio engineering
Nice!
Maybe make a devlog about texturing? I see there are some nice things happening but it’s not obvious what design do you have exactly.