EXTREME Powder Temperature Testing: Varget -vs- TAC
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- Опубліковано 31 бер 2022
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Temperature affects powder and velocity- but how much? Take a look at our extreme temperature testing for answers.
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Johnny's Reloading Bench found that the primers can be super sensitive. In his testing the CCI450 had almost no affect on speed at any temperature.
I’d like to see that thrown into this test. For me, shooting ramshot hunter in 30-06 switching from standard primers to magnum took my groups from 2” to 1/2” and my ES from like 60 to 8.
I have had the opposite results in my 300 Win Mag... I went from magnum primers to BR2'S and numbers showed definite improvement.
@@oldschooljack3479 which powder?
@@K-bob_45 wtf? Really? Just changing the primer?
@@tonesmith909 yep. It was pretty wild
The greatest difference between Varget and Tac is that Tac actually exists.
Varget is available all over online. MidwayUSA, mid south, grafs, powder valley. Even bass pro/ Cabela’s has it. Some of the scheels as well. Gotta look
As a new reloader, and some one who loves data, I would really enjoy more videos like this testing all sorts of different powders. Really cools guys, thanks!
You guys have a great show. Many of us won't go to the extremes that you do but the info is great plus you're entertaining. You get as Scientific as anyone could get and have a busy schedule do so. So thanks for all the hard work Gavin, Travis and crew!
Absolutely love these powder testing videos! Please do more!
I keep my ammo in a rubber greased gasket ammo can with desicant, a temp probe in a case with gun powder, temp sensor in the can and a humidity gauge within the ammo can. This monitors the environment inside of the cartridge case for temperature and the temperature and humidity inside of the ammo can. I input this data into my firing solution. It works absolutely great to maintain the proper muzzle velocity for a proper velocity per ammo temperature. This is just one aspect of knowing where the bullet will impact especially in the trans and subsonic regions. Great testing, thanks!!
Interesting what you were saying about shooting in damp conditions. Several years ago, I was shooting 22lr in the rain and I was impacting above point of aim. It's baffled me till today. Thanks for explaining it to me!
8 pounders of Varget? That's serious flex.
Hunting with a 45-70. It was Wyoming cold, subzero. Pulled up to shoot, and the large rifle primer did not ignite the powder, but was enough pressure to dislodge the bullet. I always use magnum primers in winter now.
I know Win 748 with a Win primer in 223 works great in -23F in an AR.
Your “ammo in your car” reference is exactly what threw me for a loop one day when doing a ladder test. I kept my ammo in my truck during work and went straight to the range on a 90 degree day with a dark blue truck. Needless to say I was chasing my tail at the results. I only do load development fresh in the mornings now.
Fantastic! Well done gents. You guys are doing the shooting enthusiasts & sports a great service. Thank you so much. I will have to watch this a couple more times to even start to really process some of it. However, the basic premise and points are easily understood and applicable. Again, thank you.
This is great info, I ran into this type of issue some years ago while prairie dog shooting. Loads were worked up in March, April and may timeframe. My 223 WSSM with a 1-7 twist for 90 bullets was causing the bolt to stick, hard to lift. My 20 Tactical was popping primers. Leason learned.
Now that you have a baseline for Varget, it would be interesting to see the same results from other powders, such as RL 17, win 748, CFE 223, and RL 15. I use Varget and RL 15 for matches.
What this tells me is that between 32f and 90f, the range I and thousands of other shooters go shooting in, the spread in velocity with either powder will be basically negligable in most anything outside of benchrest.
Yep! That's what I'm seeing.
Outside of the most extreme temperatures, I'd say this is really a non issue for anyone other than competitive shooters.
So...not even an acknowledgement to other YT channels who have run almost identical testing? As Roger H notes below, JRB has done powder temp testing and at least one episode of primer temp testing. The more data the better. And, I understand this isn't a scholarly paper where previous works MUST be cited, but it would have been the classy thing to do.
Great job! I agree that it would be a good idea to test at other Temps. Easy to wire in a digital thermostat on a deep freezer (chest). That would make it easy to test down to -20F which is as cold as MOST people are ever going to shoot in :)
I used H4350 and varget in a 300 win mag. 5 each with large rifle primers and large rifle mag primers. No difference in my groups but I also used the superformance powder the same way and had a better/group with large mags. No group with large rifle primers. All testing was done at 100 yards. The varget had a tighter group so that’s what I went with
It would be very interesting to test the ammo velocity with the rifle barrel at about the same temperature to see if that would add to the variance.
Would like to see this test with the CFE series of powders
I have measured my grey, unpainted, plastic bumper of my truck at 183*F. My tan painted barrel 5 yards away was 135*. I don't know how hot black stuff gets because I'd witnessed how uncomfortable it is and painted all my guns tan.
Holding a 200 degree piece of metal is awful due to conduction.
As for what I've experienced with powders, I've had popped primers and 3450-3480fps with M193 in a 20" barrel. Allegedly, I've sent a 300 SMK at 2950 FPS in 338LM. I think it was 4.9 mrad to 1000 yards. I used an app to guess at the velocity based on where the bullets went.
Let’s face it if it’s. -65 Or + 140 degrees outside I’m staying home. LoL
Great video thanks for sharing
Awesome test! If you will test some others powders, it would be awesome if you could test also some Vithavouri N140, N150, N550 or Reload Swiss RS40, RS52 and RS60 powders. Maybe I can copy the test procedure for handgun calibers😉
Would have been nice if you would have ran the drop data on the different temps to see how far off the difference would be on those loads. Just to see how important it would be in more of a hunting vs precision scenario. Great stuff by the way!
Cfe223 in my valkyrie saw wild poi shifts in a match. I've also observed that you have too much varget.
Fantastic video
I have a custom Mini Mauser rifle build in .223 Rem with a heavy Bull 26” Douglas barrel. I have multiple confirmed one shot kills with it on groundhogs out to 400 yards. I specifically remember having it out one day and shooting way high on many of my shots. Most of them were as much as a full Mil high. That’s when I discovered H335’s temperature sensitivity. My old go to loads were 23.5 gr H335 and 55 gr Nosler BT or 26.0 gr H335 and 52 gr SMK. This was 10 years ago now, I’ve come a long way and since switched to Benchmark powder in that gun with the Noslers. It shoots em tighter too.
Just loaded tac with 77g Berger otm and was wondering about temperature sensitivity. Thanks for doing my homework for me👍
Var get is very stable vs temp! It’s the best.
I like the protocol. For years, I had used Win 748 for 308 silhouette loads, but I was in the northeast. I used magnum primers and didn't have an issue with POI. I didn't own a chronograph at the time.
Now in the southeast, with hot humid summers, I pay attention to this a lot more. I have a really nice 223 AR load with Win 748, great group, 10 fps ES, which I developed in the summer. Since this is a bulk AR load and I use my Dillon 650, ball powder is a logical choice, and I wasn't considering a stick powder. I am near, but below, the top end, but given it was developed in hot temps, I am less worried about it. I store my ammunition out if sun and keep as cool as possible. I don't see using it at really cold temps.
I worked up a 30-06 load with some Win 760 and shot it in the summer, in a 22" barreled hunting rifle, and let's just say I ended up pulling bullets on the higher charges loads due to pressure signs, even 2 grains below max. The chronograph read something akin to 300 magnum velocity with a noticeable recoil and I stopped on this 95 degree day. I actually am focusing more on IMR 4350 for a hunting load since I don't mind this for low volume loading.
This is why we work up carefully.
Another great video guys thank you You basically proved what we see in bench rest When I go to a match with my 6BR Norma I check what weather Forecast say the temperature variance will be From morning to afternoon as we shoot several disciplines throughout the day Is ranging from 100 to 300 yd I don't load at the match but I bring loads varying anywhere from point 2 to point 4 in Difference in weight To keep my groups from coming apart
I use Varget Exclusively Thanks for the great video guys
I have observed substantial temperature stability variation using H4350 in different cartridges. In 270WIN it is outrageously stable. In 7mm-08 it is very stable. In 300WSM it was noticeably less stable, still good but not near as stable as in the 270.
So, results vary depending on the cartridge and the internal ballistics which is very interesting.
I would like to see you guys compare H4350 to varget with the temp changes.
Yes primer test, please
You should be keeping track of the humidity levels when you are in the process of hand loading. I’ve noticed changes in how some loads perform more so than finished ammo.
Hmm just heard Rex say humidity has the least affect as anything…on his Dallas Alexander vid btw…I’m testin with my fn spr 1” 24” long 1:12” 4 groove and man it’s the perfect .308. .3” groups and all these numbers there usin are exactly mine and same speeds…43gr varget under 169blems put me at 2650 little bit ago…humidity is down here in Ky today…
Now this was interesting!
I would like to try some Varget but haven't been able to get any in years. Wish I could call Hodgdon and get some sent to me, fat chance there. I can however get TAC. Then there is that, availability - will it ever end?
I used ramshot tac 44gr for my 308 165gr accubonds for hunting in Southern maryland . Thought I had it dialed in at 85° with August humidity. Went out farm land nuisance tag hunting on a 95 degree morning in August humidity off the charts and my dialed in Q fix sighted in 4 inches high and 2 inches to the left at 100 yards . I been using the Sam load for 3 years with this rifle but 10 fegree change made me stop using Tac
I'd like to see more of these kinds of videos
Yes. Please do the primer tests (CCI 41 vs?)
It's crazy how powder availability changes so drastically so quickly, Varget is all over the place now, lol. Was the same thing with H4350 for a long time, last two pounds I bought I found on shelf at my local Bass Pro shop
So I am not crazy for keeping my ammo in the cooler with my lunch
Thank you for the data. Only issue with my 308/Reloader 15 and 168 gr was a hang fire at -30 c. Scared the crap out of me, buck went 9/0 into the trees. And now I use graphite dry lube. Lesson learned.
Varget....you found Sasquatch riding a unicorn. Varget hasn’t been available where I live for at least five years.
In the modern day world of powder technology, I have found that even ball powders are pretty stable and have had very good luck with them.
Living here in Tx, I thought I'd be fighting differences in velocity with temp changes, but no. Accurate 2700 is one example of a stable ball powder for my set of variables. Great video!!!
The video and going thru the comments reminded me of talking to a Secret Service marksman in the 2000's. He said they had custom handloaders in the USSS who would tailor their load for every single stop the prez made. Humidity, elevation, temperature etc are calculated. This means they have done very extensive testing in the past to do this. Rifle was custom made by USSS gunsmiths. His particular rifle was 14 lbs and 300 Win Mag. Accuracy testing was done at 600 yards. As the throat wears changes will not be noticeable at closer ranges.
While working up loads for the wildcat 25-223 I got a surprise with Federal Match primers. Just switching to them boosted velocity 50-70 fps. Working with a wildcat is an educational experience in how so many factors effect pressure, velocity, etc. My go-to favorite powder Win 748 for decades is above outstanding in all .223 rifles. But it was very erratic in velocity varying 80 to 100 fps between shots. FWIW H4198 is super consistent so much so I thought the chrony was broken a few times.
I would like see this test with some more powers, like Imr4064, RL-15 and N-150.
I’ve seen consistent 75-100fps ES in 5.56 TAC loads which is rather significant compared to your 169fps temp swing. Were your ES/SD numbers good? Same rifle in question loves a comparable Varget load and groups and chrono results confirm. Could I pick your Tac groups out of a lineup or did the speeds overlap the temp bands?
I saw a video of a guy doing a similar video with H1000 and Magnum. I was surprised with the results. Im glad your doing these. Can you do one with Magpro v Retumbo?
Varget is a great powder if you can find it and afford it now days
ADI is flat out with military contracts.
Great semi-auto action from a bolt gun, no working the bolt shown. haha. Great test enjoy your channel.
Shooting RL15 at a 600y match, had to drop elevation significantly 3 times during the day. I was pretty worried about it before hand but once the adjustment is made correctly it seemed to be fine.
We use this powder in Aus 2208 adi powder wether in tropics with high humidity or our high country cold and snow not as severe as your winters by anymeans buttotaly stable and made near where I live only trouble is most of the powder ends up over where you are so we get shortages here lol
I have a PA10 18” mid length gas system. I worked up to 50.8gr of TAC with a 130gr ttsx at 2.794oal. I was getting 3105fps with a SD of 16 and an es of 42. Got a 3 shot group at .455”.
Yahoo, Varget the Australian made gem. (ADI 2208) Great video Gavin
I WORKED A LOAD UP AT 96 DEGREES WITH TAC 15 YRS. AGO AND I'VE HAD NO PROBLEMS SINCE.
Few weeks ago in NH, i shot 6.5 creed in 32+/- degrees that day, load was 41.6 gr IMR4350 and velocity was 2650. a weekend later same load same everything temp climbed to 60 degrees and the velocities averaged 2720
That's why the powder for M118lr was changed from R15 to imr4064 in 01.
Wow what great information, I'm a numbers head. A ballistic freak and Varget is one of my go-to powders. Guess I'll just stay with it. I cannot thank you guys enough. Keep up the great work. Don't want to start any trouble but Gavin you should grow a beard too
Very interesting
@gavintoobe. is there a chart of temp sensitivity? similar to the burn rate chart for powders
Would love to see Hodgdon Superformance, which I’ve heard is very temperature sensitive.
Please test Primers AND some N150 and N555 from Vihtavuori
Very interesting video, thank you for the great info. I believe about 6 months ago or so, I thought I saw a video of you loading 308 Win with TAC. I searched your videos, but can't find it. Did you make such a video?
Glad we don't see such temperature ranges here... easier to keep things simple.
Still being an engineer here. I’ve often wondered about velocity change of the full system. Does the TCE of the metal in the action and barrel vs brass and bullet cause more velocity change and pressure than just the powder and bullet?
Been 3+years since I've seen Varget in stock anywhere.
I mostly use mag primers in everything I load for the colder weather, but great point on primers I would be good to know which ones are more stable
Would be interesting to go to the ballistics tables and see what effect on drop the change in velocity you saw would have. Also, you could shoot at longer ranges and study the actual change in point of impact at the various temperatures. For both hunting and match shooting, it’s the change in point of impact that really matters.
@Travis Fox Good stuff. Also, since you bring up harmonics, it’s interesting to think about the effect temperature change has on the rifle itself, particularly the barrel. Might affect harmonics itself.
Great Info guys, Thx!
Any way you can test LeverRevolution in the 6mm ARC?
Im just finishing up my 6mm ARC and going to start to shoot PRS (gas gun) as soon as I get some loads made up and barrel broke in.
I been looking for a temperature test using Re 16 & Re 26 I can’t get the time tested H4350 so I been shooting my 6.5 Creedmoor with 143 Hornady ELD X the velocity’s are high with both powders but I wonder how they compare to the Hodgdon Extreme Powder series any help??
Brass is a good conductor of heat, but powder is not. How long does it take the powder in the case to normalize to the case temperature?
IMR 4831 vs H4831 would be great as well. I load a couple rounds with those powders.
My friend decide to change from h4831 to some imr. He went out when it’s was cold. It gets pretty cold in the winter where we are out. And imr screwed his barrel. It did not want to perform in that weather. He went back to hodgdon and everything was fine.
Hi Guys here in New Zealand we don't get hi temp changes but I'm interested in what your accuracy changes where
You don’t see benchmark much but it and superformance I’ve done good in .308 and for my 110v max imr4198 is all I use and they stack in .3”s from my fn spr..
I love Benchmark! Not sure why it's never included in anything. Sure it's more small cal focused but it's performed well in everything I've used it in!
Everyone watching this is like... "That's some good data." But simultaneously thinking... "Where the @&#$ did these guys score an 8 lb jug of Varget?"
@Travis Fox LOL, that's how it works everywhere right now. Things show up at odd places, little mom n' pop shops here and there. I live way out in the sticks... So going to a "local" retailer is still a bit of a quest. I usually make a day of it. It's an adventure to see what I can scrounge.
42.5g hits clay pidgeons at 600yd in a military case. Lots of fun from 20 yo powder.
Test at high chamber pressures vs lower
What modifications are on that Ckye pod please?
How come you guys didn’t show accuracy/consistency results on paper targets of both powders?
Can you test something more apples to apples like varget to staball match or other “claimed” temp stable powders?
Ah ok, but look at the middle of your graph. From 30 degrees to 90 degrees the Tac only changes by 50fps. Not much. I don't shoot in the arctic or Africa so.....
This is why I prefer detachable mag rifles. Keep your mag in your pocket until you're on game or ready to shoot, summer or winter. This creates as stable of a temp while hunting you're going to get. Takes the guesswork out of the powder. Just have to account for atmospherics and barrel temp.
I would also be very interested in seeing a test on velocity increases as the rifle gets more fouled I did a mini one today my first 10 rounds through the gun were Berger vld 80 with cfe 223 26.6 grains and had 2955fps then 115 rounds later I shot them again and had 2985.. could be a cool test
You have a screw loose on your front scope ring 8:55.
Does this temperature change and change in velocity affect the node for your rifle?
I shoot high power and in the summer on hot days i have to come down a click. Also I noticed one of my Ar's is more pressure sensitive and i have pierced a primer with left over match loads in the summer with that gun. my match gun can take more pressure. I have pierced primers on hot days if my loads are too warm. This also happened in my 308 however I found out that it was because of the Winchester large rifle primers when I switched over to CCI and stopped piercing. Had some bolt damage before I figured out it was the primers not the loads.
Great video, guys. However, please explain on how a cartridge has a variability in a humid versus dry environment after it was loaded and sealed and whatever environment that it started with. If the cartridge was a free load it in a dry element then a humid environment should not alter any of the internal ballistics. Temperature yes, humidity no. Please explain. Thanks again.
FYI, humid air is less dense than dry air at the same temperature.
Can we vote for other temp sensitive testing? I'm trying to figure out what powder to use for 300 bo supersonic loads. And what were the SDs and group sizes? If tac grouped better, I think I'd just do a few extra dope measurements.
Great video!
@Travis Fox mostly 110 gr v-max
what powder does the military use in their 556 rounds? I know in the middle east the temps are extream and would see issues engaging targets in combat!
I would like to see two sets of shots of one powder. That way we know we are having consistent data. If we are not getting consistent data it's hard to say its valid info.
Why do you always say your last name so fast, none of us can understand you Gavin? BTW, I love your videos.
I've always heard that H4350 is the most temperature stable propellant in terms of velocity, something like 25ft/sec over a 100°f range...
Use Varget religiously for matches.
Where are you getting 8 pounders??
Than!s guys! This vid doesn't help me obtain any Varget!
Sure nice you’re doing the testing for the powder manufacturers to which they should be probably doing themselves and even posting maybe we’ll get there someday? . They’re too busy manufacturing and even keeping it in stock. People are always buying it till it disappears, so why should they bother?
Ok lets see US 869 vs 24N41 for those big ultra over bore
I shot a match this weekend and on the longer distances (500 meters+)saw my 300wm shot 2 clicks (mildot) higer than ussual. My theorie is that while waiting for my turn to shoot again chaimering a bullet in a hot barrel heats up the powder in the bullet. I tested this temp difference on strelokPro with a 30’c in powder temp and showed the same conclution. Could you mabe test this?
@Travis Fox thanx for the reply. I am going to do a test myself to see howmuch it influences my point of impact on 400 meters.