Very cool I definitely cannot dispute Any of that. Another thing I would say is certainly when you mention Chuck Norris and Pat Johnson, they went on to develop American TSD, which is in and of itself a different art altogether. It certainly has TSD as a foundation but it’s a mixture of other things especially today when we add Brazilian, jujitsu and boxing and things of that nature. Thanks for spreading knowledge, take care.
@instructorlex8273 Chuck Norris always innovated. From what I understand in the meeting in 1975 when they were trying to form the third attempt at a MDK federation, he just wanted a technical advisory position considering he was the world champion. They told him no and he decided to just go on his own anyway and I think he did very well You're right he Incorporated BJJ and boxing. Remember full contact karate is what became American kickboxing they dropped the karate and favorite kickboxing by 1982. Pat Johnson and him had a split as Chuck Norris's senior students wanted to adopt the name Chun kuk Do. Mr Johnson wanted to stay with TSD. No bad blood but they decided to go in different directions The MDK or SBD MDK was intended to be more of a Kung Fu style, but because of the Japanese influence in Korea for 35 years the Shotokan influence could not be dropped and it became a hybrid art
@ from the Chuck Norris side to add onto what you’re saying. My understanding was ultimately Chuck Norris did not feel that the Korean standard was high enough as it was very common to earn a black belt in one year. This is why today he has a minimum requirement of three years. back in the day he changed the name to Chuck Norris system in the 80s before eventually going on and calling it Chun Kuk Do. In 2015, the name Chuck Norris system was to be used exclusively again. That is the current name of today’s UFAF system. It is politics, however. They are all one in the same just using a different name and of course they are different variations. Similarly to how TSD schools under a different federation or technically a different variant of the Art but they are still TSD. I am a 6° black belt In the American Tang Soo Do system. My certificate says Chuck Norris system - American Tang Soo Do exactly like that. I learned the same system as it is taught in the Chuck Norris system, but because my instructor well still being part of the UFAF, but teaching separately from it and teaches the system, they prefer to look at any of his students as American Tang Soo Do NOT Chuck Norris system. I was once told that in order to be considered Chuck Norris system my certificate would have to have Chuck Norris signature on it and it does not however, my instructors does so this is what I mean when I say it’s all politics. In my opinion, the federations have truly created much less unity because if you’re not paying dues to a certain federation, then you are not one of them. I earned my first black belt under an MDK school. Even those schools are fragmented as some TSD and some SBD. I don’t say this to make it about myself, or talk about my own personal rank in the system, but only to further exemplify the continued separation that has plagued Tang Soo Do for a long time. There was so many different variations, and they all claim to be the way. lol.
@instructorlex8273 i don't know about that. I think all black belts to a year back then.. less curriculum. The 3 year or 4 year staggard came out in that meeting in 75
@@HouseOfWarriorsverobeach I wasn’t there I wasn’t born until 19 1977. All I can say is that directly out of UFAF members mouths this is an accurate statement. As a matter of fact, I also saw Pat Johnson speaking about it once on video, given the same reasoning right here on UA-cam. You seem to really know and appreciate history. I’d be happy to post it when I have a moment. It’s all just Interesting insight that’s all. Like I said I wasn’t there lol.
Various karate training centers were operated during the occupation. These were Japanese karate dojo. Despite various stories made up to distance TSD and TKD from karate, the training for TSD, TKD was Japanese karate.
Hwang Kee is normally credited for inventing the Tang Soo Do art as its known today. I studied under World Tang Soo Do Association founded by his student Jae Chul Shin. Became a Cho Dan and left for awhile and now thinking about picking up Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. To me Soo Bahk Do seems like a more advanced form of Tang Soo Do with the new hyungs Hwang Kee introduced later. Don't know if you would agree with that assessment.
I have a question regarding Hwang. During your time in the Moo Duk Kwan, was there any mention of what specific Chinese style(s) he learned? I've read on various sites that it was Yang style Tai Chi Chuan and on others that is was Northern Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu.
Hi yes. It was possibly yang family tai chi under yang Jin Gao. Which wascalso..very basic long fist. But he also was versed in dham doi/ Tam tui ship ee ro ..or 12 step Tam tui springy foot
Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan) was supposedly a hybrid art of Neh Gung (Internal) and Weh Gung (external) Chinese styles and Tae Kyun (Sip Pal Ki) They never mentioned a specific style but said he studied under Master Yang Kuk Jin while he worked for the railroads in Manchuria. Also he self taught himself Tae Kyun (Sip Pal Ki) as well as learning Okinawan Te from books, which is why there was so many Okinawan/Japanese forms in Tang Soo Do. He mentioned many times that Tang Soo Do was a generic term for martial arts and besides being interpreted the China Hand Way, could also be used for Karate the way the Okinawans used it. The Japanese changed the meaning of Karate when it came from Okinawa from China Hand to Empty hand. I hope that helps a little.
What's interesting is that TSD (minus the kicks) is a snapshot of what Shotokan used to be like before Shotokan modernized. (No hanmi dachi, no low stances, shuto from the hip like in old Shotokan footage).
It actually mirrors Okinawan Te (karate) which had and still has higher stances than Shotokan. The Japanese modified Te (karate) stances when it was introduced to Japan and changed the name a bit.
@robertdennis550 I'm not sure where you disagree with my point. TSD was established by Won Kuk Lee (before Huang Kee / Moo Duck Kwan capitalized on the TSD name. ) Won Kuk Lee learned - what was the Shotokan of the time (hence I wrote "snapshot"). Yes it mirrors Okinawan karate more than Shotokan today but that's because Shotokan changed a lot after Won Kuk Lee went back to Korea. So, my point is, it's interesting to see in TSD what Shotokan was like back then (without the Korean kicks and Kung fu elements Hwang Kee added). And yes, Shotokan back then, resembled okinawan karate (because essentially it was) more than the Shotokan karate it became.
@@sebastiandavid2546In Hwang Kee's "Autobiography" he says he learned karate from Okinawan books. It may or may not be true but that's what he said. 😁 Also he said Tang Soo Do is a generic term, so yes Karate Do is Tang Soo Do.
@robertdennis550 he was also a green belt under Won Kuk Lee's organization of Tang Soo Do where he got to learn the rhythm and tempo of the pinan/heian/pianan forms, according to a UA-cam video I saw recently.
I enjoy all the twists and turns and this country invaded this country that influenced all the arts. I look at it from this point of view. I find what works for me, gather it up and work on it to see if it truly works, for me. And continue my journey. 43 years later (now) I have gathered up enough of what works for me to have a pretty rounded style, for myself. I know it works in the dojo, in a cage and on the street, for me. I am asked, from time to time, that looks like this or that, I usually say it should, that is where I found it. That or, I guess they could have discovered it as well, but I learned that from .... wherever. Sometimes I have the wonderful statement of no, I found that out by actually using it and found it worked like that. When it is all said and done who should really care where something came from or where or who "created" it. As long as it works it is right.
I was ready to test for my 6th Dan in Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) under Hwang Kee but had to retire for health reasons 20 years ago. Tang Soo Do used to be more hard style and Shotokan in flavor 30 years ago. They then started introducing Chinese and long fist style forms and the style became softer. Now it's like a synthesis of Shotokan and Long fist with Tai Chi thrown in. Supposedly this is incorporating information from the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji, the ancient Korean Martial Arts manual.
I didn't have a problem defense. Reducing the chill sun or yukro forms. My issue was the unrealistic attitude towards the changing world. And I don't feel they've been innovative. Probably since the early 80s. And I agree the style is way too soft now and I don't see them. Being able to effectively handle themselves in self-defense.
@@HouseOfWarriorsverobeach I'd love to see a video on your opinions on a type of no contact sparring that the Moo Duk Kwan. I think they call it "Moo Do"? After watching several videos of it, I have my own opinions on it. But it would be nice to hear someone who actually was a member of the group.
@barrettokarate When I started training in the late 80s, it was contact sparring all the way through. Then the attitude changed toward no context. Sparring, you're the only black belts can make contact. I was a black belt by the time that happened so it didn't matter to me. But I noticed how students could not realistically defend themselves and many of them. So they could spar like me and the more senior dans, Would seek out private lessons with me all the time. And I would help them. Even. The instructor I was currently under at the time in the early to mid.Nineties agreed that this was an issue and students were not learning how to defend themselves under the organizations guidelines I had left that studio to open my own school. But at that time that instructor head started a full contact sparring class for serious students and those who were Greenbelt and above. Well, I am more of a kickbox in system. Many people comment that it looks like older tSD In my studio, we spar weekly. And we do a mix of either light sparring, meaning just boxing gloves and minimal gear to medium sparring. Will be wear headgear face protection and shin guard. Not too different from the early days. I have found that there has been a resurgence in many of these martial arts, not just related to karate or Korean martial arts, but even Brazilian jujitsu to go back to a time when it was all focused on self-defense. I know the type of sparring you're speaking of when I left in 2008, they started to introduce, for masters, the presequenced sparring. It is total nonsense and is just an artful display of choreography. Also in the sparring matches that they do with these high level masters if you Institute, these dumb long backfist techniques from their forms.You are given extra points Again, not focused on efficacy, just on display. Most of us back when I was a member stopped competing and doing sparring, especially after third dawn, because no one would compete at fourth degree blackbelt, as there was no sparring division. However, Charles Ferraro when he broke away, introduced a master's division, which was true sparring for masters. But he had to leave the organization to do such. So many of us would resign and just not compete unless you wanted to just do forms. But as I left in 2008, this is what they were introducing and I was kind of glad I left because I did not see that as interesting enough for me.
Hwang never trained with Nakayama. There's no proof that Hwang ever traveled to Japan in his youth and vice versa for Nakayama. There were tons of other Koreans like Won Kuk Lee who did live and trained in Japan during the 1930s and early 40s, but Hwang was not one of them.
Sorry, that's just a rhetoric. Marshall means war or military. Every country on the planet had a system of martial practices or war arts. It's not just from Asia and Bodie. Dharma as a Buddhist did not create martial arts. He created a health practice that later was adapted into a martial art
@@HouseOfWarriorsverobeach So you've just agreed to what I said. When I say martial arts came from a meditative state of mind, I meant Bohidarma was the one that brought about the three internal mother forms, tai chi, baguazanhg and Hsing-i chuan, to help the monks in heavy prey, to circulate their Chi, instead of stagnation, then the three internal styles got turned into combat martial arts by the warlords. 🍻
@sylvain5146 No I didn't. martial arts existed before bodydarma. Bodydarma was a man of peace, he invented practices for health purposes. there is nothing martial or military about his practices. television has invented that it developed into that. Martiall means war. Stopwatching the television show Kung Fu, I actually looked at history. there were war practices and war arts in China long before him. as well as in Europe, Africa, and Greece. Organized fighting systems were developed by the military to protect the king or royalty. Shaolin is not a fighting system. And that's been proven in actual demonstrations many times. When I say they developed later comma that was through some re imagining by the chinese government. But there is nothing military or warlike about any of that stuff.
@sylvain5146 no, I just gave you historical facts and you just won't accept it. also, what are you referring to about? The Korean war machine? Korea has always been continuously invaded. And they were the hermit kingdom for majority of time In addition, for half of the twentieth century, almost they were occupied by japan and stripped of their culture and even their language. They were forced into military conscription by japan. This is the problem with martial arts or people like you. you believe fantasy, and when facts present themselves, you can't accept it and your b******* answer is, let's agree to disagree. you know that what you were saying is incorrect and should never, ever be discussed. As it perpetuates, the idea of these fantastical stories that are really a version of mythology for the Chinese. if shaolin was so effective. Why are they now teaching forms of karate MMA and kickboxing in China. fastest growing martial art in China right now is M. M. A and Brazilian jujitsu. why is that? Because they got their a**** handed to them years ago when they put 10 of their best Kung Fu masters against 10 muay Thai practitioners. Shaolin is a tourist trap in China, where people like you and people who wanna believe in fantasy. and refute historical fact.
Very cool I definitely cannot dispute Any of that. Another thing I would say is certainly when you mention Chuck Norris and Pat Johnson, they went on to develop American TSD, which is in and of itself a different art altogether. It certainly has TSD as a foundation but it’s a mixture of other things especially today when we add Brazilian, jujitsu and boxing and things of that nature. Thanks for spreading knowledge, take care.
@instructorlex8273 Chuck Norris always innovated. From what I understand in the meeting in 1975 when they were trying to form the third attempt at a MDK federation, he just wanted a technical advisory position considering he was the world champion. They told him no and he decided to just go on his own anyway and I think he did very well
You're right he Incorporated BJJ and boxing. Remember full contact karate is what became American kickboxing they dropped the karate and favorite kickboxing by 1982. Pat Johnson and him had a split as Chuck Norris's senior students wanted to adopt the name Chun kuk Do. Mr Johnson wanted to stay with TSD. No bad blood but they decided to go in different directions
The MDK or SBD MDK was intended to be more of a Kung Fu style, but because of the Japanese influence in Korea for 35 years the Shotokan influence could not be dropped and it became a hybrid art
@ from the Chuck Norris side to add onto what you’re saying. My understanding was ultimately Chuck Norris did not feel that the Korean standard was high enough as it was very common to earn a black belt in one year. This is why today he has a minimum requirement of three years. back in the day he changed the name to Chuck Norris system in the 80s before eventually going on and calling it Chun Kuk Do. In 2015, the name Chuck Norris system was to be used exclusively again. That is the current name of today’s UFAF system. It is politics, however. They are all one in the same just using a different name and of course they are different variations. Similarly to how TSD schools under a different federation or technically a different variant of the Art but they are still TSD.
I am a 6° black belt In the American Tang Soo Do system. My certificate says Chuck Norris system - American Tang Soo Do exactly like that. I learned the same system as it is taught in the Chuck Norris system, but because my instructor well still being part of the UFAF, but teaching separately from it and teaches the system, they prefer to look at any of his students as American Tang Soo Do NOT Chuck Norris system. I was once told that in order to be considered Chuck Norris system my certificate would have to have Chuck Norris signature on it and it does not however, my instructors does so this is what I mean when I say it’s all politics. In my opinion, the federations have truly created much less unity because if you’re not paying dues to a certain federation, then you are not one of them.
I earned my first black belt under an MDK school. Even those schools are fragmented as some TSD and some SBD.
I don’t say this to make it about myself, or talk about my own personal rank in the system, but only to further exemplify the continued separation that has plagued Tang Soo Do for a long time. There was so many different variations, and they all claim to be the way. lol.
@instructorlex8273 i don't know about that. I think all black belts to a year back then.. less curriculum. The 3 year or 4 year staggard came out in that meeting in 75
@@HouseOfWarriorsverobeach I wasn’t there I wasn’t born until 19 1977. All I can say is that directly out of UFAF members mouths this is an accurate statement. As a matter of fact, I also saw Pat Johnson speaking about it once on video, given the same reasoning right here on UA-cam. You seem to really know and appreciate history. I’d be happy to post it when I have a moment. It’s all just Interesting insight that’s all. Like I said I wasn’t there lol.
Various karate training centers were operated during the occupation. These were Japanese karate dojo. Despite various stories made up to distance TSD and TKD from karate, the training for TSD, TKD was Japanese karate.
Hwang Kee is normally credited for inventing the Tang Soo Do art as its known today. I studied under World Tang Soo Do Association founded by his student Jae Chul Shin. Became a Cho Dan and left for awhile and now thinking about picking up Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. To me Soo Bahk Do seems like a more advanced form of Tang Soo Do with the new hyungs Hwang Kee introduced later. Don't know if you would agree with that assessment.
I have a question regarding Hwang. During your time in the Moo Duk Kwan, was there any mention of what specific Chinese style(s) he learned? I've read on various sites that it was Yang style Tai Chi Chuan and on others that is was Northern Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu.
Hi yes. It was possibly yang family tai chi under yang Jin Gao. Which wascalso..very basic long fist. But he also was versed in dham doi/ Tam tui ship ee ro ..or 12 step Tam tui springy foot
Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan) was supposedly a hybrid art of Neh Gung (Internal) and Weh Gung (external) Chinese styles and Tae Kyun (Sip Pal Ki) They never mentioned a specific style but said he studied under Master Yang Kuk Jin while he worked for the railroads in Manchuria. Also he self taught himself Tae Kyun (Sip Pal Ki) as well as learning Okinawan Te from books, which is why there was so many Okinawan/Japanese forms in Tang Soo Do. He mentioned many times that Tang Soo Do was a generic term for martial arts and besides being interpreted the China Hand Way, could also be used for Karate the way the Okinawans used it. The Japanese changed the meaning of Karate when it came from Okinawa from China Hand to Empty hand. I hope that helps a little.
What's interesting is that TSD (minus the kicks) is a snapshot of what Shotokan used to be like before Shotokan modernized. (No hanmi dachi, no low stances, shuto from the hip like in old Shotokan footage).
It actually mirrors Okinawan Te (karate) which had and still has higher stances than Shotokan. The Japanese modified Te (karate) stances when it was introduced to Japan and changed the name a bit.
@robertdennis550 I'm not sure where you disagree with my point. TSD was established by Won Kuk Lee (before Huang Kee / Moo Duck Kwan capitalized on the TSD name. )
Won Kuk Lee learned - what was the Shotokan of the time (hence I wrote "snapshot"). Yes it mirrors Okinawan karate more than Shotokan today but that's because Shotokan changed a lot after Won Kuk Lee went back to Korea. So, my point is, it's interesting to see in TSD what Shotokan was like back then (without the Korean kicks and Kung fu elements Hwang Kee added). And yes, Shotokan back then, resembled okinawan karate (because essentially it was) more than the Shotokan karate it became.
@@sebastiandavid2546In Hwang Kee's "Autobiography" he says he learned karate from Okinawan books. It may or may not be true but that's what he said. 😁 Also he said Tang Soo Do is a generic term, so yes Karate Do is Tang Soo Do.
@robertdennis550 he was also a green belt under Won Kuk Lee's organization of Tang Soo Do where he got to learn the rhythm and tempo of the pinan/heian/pianan forms, according to a UA-cam video I saw recently.
I enjoy all the twists and turns and this country invaded this country that influenced all the arts. I look at it from this point of view. I find what works for me, gather it up and work on it to see if it truly works, for me. And continue my journey. 43 years later (now) I have gathered up enough of what works for me to have a pretty rounded style, for myself. I know it works in the dojo, in a cage and on the street, for me. I am asked, from time to time, that looks like this or that, I usually say it should, that is where I found it. That or, I guess they could have discovered it as well, but I learned that from .... wherever. Sometimes I have the wonderful statement of no, I found that out by actually using it and found it worked like that. When it is all said and done who should really care where something came from or where or who "created" it. As long as it works it is right.
I was ready to test for my 6th Dan in Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) under Hwang Kee but had to retire for health reasons 20 years ago. Tang Soo Do used to be more hard style and Shotokan in flavor 30 years ago. They then started introducing Chinese and long fist style forms and the style became softer. Now it's like a synthesis of Shotokan and Long fist with Tai Chi thrown in. Supposedly this is incorporating information from the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji, the ancient Korean Martial Arts manual.
I didn't have a problem defense. Reducing the chill sun or yukro forms. My issue was the unrealistic attitude towards the changing world. And I don't feel they've been innovative. Probably since the early 80s. And I agree the style is way too soft now and I don't see them. Being able to effectively handle themselves in self-defense.
@@HouseOfWarriorsverobeach I'd love to see a video on your opinions on a type of no contact sparring that the Moo Duk Kwan. I think they call it "Moo Do"? After watching several videos of it, I have my own opinions on it. But it would be nice to hear someone who actually was a member of the group.
@barrettokarate When I started training in the late 80s, it was contact sparring all the way through. Then the attitude changed toward no context. Sparring, you're the only black belts can make contact.
I was a black belt by the time that happened so it didn't matter to me. But I noticed how students could not realistically defend themselves and many of them. So they could spar like me and the more senior dans, Would seek out private lessons with me all the time. And I would help them.
Even.
The instructor I was currently under at the time in the early to mid.Nineties agreed that this was an issue and students were not learning how to defend themselves under the organizations guidelines
I had left that studio to open my own school. But at that time that instructor head started a full contact sparring class for serious students and those who were Greenbelt and above.
Well, I am more of a kickbox in system. Many people comment that it looks like older tSD In my studio, we spar weekly. And we do a mix of either light sparring, meaning just boxing gloves and minimal gear to medium sparring. Will be wear headgear face protection and shin guard. Not too different from the early days. I have found that there has been a resurgence in many of these martial arts, not just related to karate or Korean martial arts, but even Brazilian jujitsu to go back to a time when it was all focused on self-defense.
I know the type of sparring you're speaking of when I left in 2008, they started to introduce, for masters, the presequenced sparring. It is total nonsense and is just an artful display of choreography.
Also in the sparring matches that they do with these high level masters if you Institute, these dumb long backfist techniques from their forms.You are given extra points
Again, not focused on efficacy, just on display. Most of us back when I was a member stopped competing and doing sparring, especially after third dawn, because no one would compete at fourth degree blackbelt, as there was no sparring division. However, Charles Ferraro when he broke away, introduced a master's division, which was true sparring for masters. But he had to leave the organization to do such.
So many of us would resign and just not compete unless you wanted to just do forms. But as I left in 2008, this is what they were introducing and I was kind of glad I left because I did not see that as interesting enough for me.
i got a question. is Tang soo do better ( internally ) than muay thai
It can be
Lee Wan Kuk...lived and trained in Tokyo under Funakoshi as well
Master Kee learned Shotokan from Nakayama...it's Korean Shotokan light
Hwang never trained with Nakayama. There's no proof that Hwang ever traveled to Japan in his youth and vice versa for Nakayama. There were tons of other Koreans like Won Kuk Lee who did live and trained in Japan during the 1930s and early 40s, but Hwang was not one of them.
Therea No taekkyon in Tang soo do or taekwondo. They just said that.
Martial arts comes from a monk called bohidarma, out of a meditative state, then turned into the industrial military complex by the Koreans
Sorry, that's just a rhetoric. Marshall means war or military. Every country on the planet had a system of martial practices or war arts. It's not just from Asia and Bodie. Dharma as a Buddhist did not create martial arts. He created a health practice that later was adapted into a martial art
@@HouseOfWarriorsverobeach So you've just agreed to what I said. When I say martial arts came from a meditative state of mind, I meant Bohidarma was the one that brought about the three internal mother forms, tai chi, baguazanhg and Hsing-i chuan, to help the monks in heavy prey, to circulate their Chi, instead of stagnation, then the three internal styles got turned into combat martial arts by the warlords. 🍻
@sylvain5146 No I didn't. martial arts existed before bodydarma. Bodydarma was a man of peace, he invented practices for health purposes. there is nothing martial or military about his practices. television has invented that it developed into that. Martiall means war.
Stopwatching the television show Kung Fu, I actually looked at history. there were war practices and war arts in China long before him. as well as in Europe, Africa, and Greece. Organized fighting systems were developed by the military to protect the king or royalty.
Shaolin is not a fighting system. And that's been proven in actual demonstrations many times. When I say they developed later comma that was through some re imagining by the chinese government. But there is nothing military or warlike about any of that stuff.
@@HouseOfWarriorsverobeach well we'll just have to agree to disagree 🤝
@sylvain5146 no, I just gave you historical facts and you just won't accept it. also, what are you referring to about? The Korean war machine? Korea has always been continuously invaded. And they were the hermit kingdom for majority of time
In addition, for half of the twentieth century, almost they were occupied by japan and stripped of their culture and even their language. They were forced into military conscription by japan.
This is the problem with martial arts or people like you. you believe fantasy, and when facts present themselves, you can't accept it and your b******* answer is, let's agree to disagree.
you know that what you were saying is incorrect and should never, ever be discussed. As it perpetuates, the idea of these fantastical stories that are really a version of mythology for the Chinese. if shaolin was so effective.
Why are they now teaching forms of karate MMA and kickboxing in China. fastest growing martial art in China right now is M. M. A and Brazilian jujitsu. why is that? Because they got their a**** handed to them years ago when they put 10 of their best Kung Fu masters against 10 muay Thai practitioners.
Shaolin is a tourist trap in China, where people like you and people who wanna believe in fantasy. and refute historical fact.