Understanding Power Ratings in AV Receivers
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- Опубліковано 8 жов 2016
- Understanding Power Ratings in AV Receivers: In this video Gene explains how power is measured and rated in AV receivers. He discusses how to read the typical power vs distortion curve and how some manufacturers attempt to fudge the ratings through clever interpretation to make their products appear more powerful.
Read our related editorial that dives deeper into this topic:
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Be sure to check out our related video here:
The AV Receiver Power Ratings Game
• The AV Receiver Power ...
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One of the best Audioholics videos ever: no punches pulled, committed to keeping the industry honest and consumers educated. More like this please!
Ted Manasa sounds very honest and factual.
Totally agree with Ted Manasa above. I've been in telecommunications for years, and now engineer (Cellular biz) test systems that test communications hardware, particularly amplifiers across all radio frequency bands. After all these years I decided to get into home theater and was blown away at just how confusing the audio industry is compared to one that relies on strict FCC defined guidelines and specifications that I come from.
Clearly some of this is marketing. Even "horsepower" was a marketing ploy to give farmers an idea how strong a steam engine would be compared to something the farmers understood better such as a horse.
But it appears marketing has gotten a little overly creative, I can say the same thing when it comes to figuring horsepower on a lawnmower these days since a number of the manufacturers no longer apply a horsepower rating to their mowers, so I have to resort to watching videos and gather other peoples experiences using a particular mower when the grass is a foot high to determine if it is going to cut my yard.
I really like that Audioholics tests these units under load and across a wide band of frequencies, even to mention the extended duty cycles imposed on the power supply by lower frequencies. Perhaps what we really need to see is an all channels loaded and driven, and power measured at each output, to 1% THD in the various modes the amplifier operates. I realize that would entail a lot of testing permutations, which could easily be handled by an ATE (Automated Test Environment) system. But probably a simpler method would be to measure the input power to the amplifier while putting it through its paces from a few to all output channels, and note where the input power seems to start clipping to determine the MCP (Maximum Composite Power) of the amplifier(s) (and the power supply limitations as well), and particularly amplifier efficiency.
Hey Gene I studied Electrical Engineering in College I would have loved to have you as a Filters teacher. You're doing wonders to all A/V enthusiast with no obligations to pander. You're the hero we need!
Loved this! This has been my gripe for a decade or more. I just bought a really inexpensive Yamaha 2 channel stereo receiver for my bedroom that is rated 100 watts rms...now get this....frequency response 40hz to 20khz. I’m figuring it’s more like a 50 wpc amp in the real world. No complaints, it’s a nice little rig for a bedroom. But...no match for my Marantz 2270 that has a real rating of 70 wpc. These kinds of misleading specs really yank my chain. I also have a 1984ish Yamaha A700...now that’s a real 100 wpc integrated amp. It even blew one of my JBLs once. But that’s another story. Ok...full disclosure...I blew the speaker ( I ignored the circuit breakers kicking in at an extreme volume for an extended time...don’t judge...I had one too many drinks). Did you know a JBL LF driver puts out the prettiest blue colored flame? Thanks again for a GREAT video. And tell Mr. Spock I saw him smile.....
Love your commitment and quality work for all #audiophiles. Very proud of you always.
LOVED the video! This is the kind of behind the scenes knowledge that I love, and for some reason I cant find elsewhere. Keep up the good work!
I bought the Marantz 5010 based on your and Hugo's advise for getting older receivers for better price. Got it for $550. Its scheduled to arrive tomorrow. Cant wait.
Gene I really love your videos !
I wish more people especially younger people who are into music and hifi would watch your videos !
Your honest and remain unbiased which is hard for me to do
Your stuff is based on actual facts, science and math
as an Audio engineer graduate I can say to EVERYONE WATCHING he knows his stuff
Side note can we expect a video review of the Anthem mrx 1120- or 720 soon?
Very kind. thank you.
I just purchased a 720 and they make my speaker loud and clean, first I play some songs without running the ARC. An then i run the ARC and o boy you can tell the difference right away, The only bummer is I cant play my old iPod through USB.which is i missed on my Yamaha receiver
Abbey king
yea Ive heard great things about There room correction.
I really want the 720 !
My rule of thumb is very simple. Divide the power supply wattage (if stated) to 3/4, (typical conventional iron plate transformer efficiency) as power supplied to the processing and amplification circuitry. Reduce the remainder to 3/4, as typical npn/pnp transistor efficiency. Eg: 800 watt power supply = 600 watts output. 600 watts x 3/4 = 450 watts total. In other words, you get slightly more than half the rated power consumption as final total output. The rest is space heating. Therefore, one would expect 90 watts rms per channel continuous, from a 5.1 receiver with an 800 watt power supply. If the device doesn't state power consumption treat all claims with caution. Toroidal transformers (up to 90% efficiency) and Class D output (typically 85% efficiency) might deliver a further 15-20% maximum output, depending on the quality and efficiency of the switching circuitry. No one listens to single channel output, so its claim should be rejected as pointless window dressing. No one would use a 5.1 receiver as a mono amp. That is a PA or bass reinforcement application only, for which one might buy a 1000-2000 watt mono or bridged stereo amp.
Excellent video Gene - NAD is a great example, as they rate their AVRs with all channels driven simultaneously, at full bandwidth and a rated distortion. They call this Full Disclosure Power. And since real-world program material requires short bursts of very high power rather than the continuous power normally specified, NAD also includes dynamic power ratings at 8 Ohms, 4 Ohms, and even 2 Ohms!
Thanks!!!
Great vid Gene, as always I feel you're giving great honest advice, I learn a lot watching your vids!
Love that you are keeping the industry honest! I'm no mathematician so I have kept to NAD, McIntosh etc.
This is stuff I had to teach customers like 20 years ago when I was involved with audio. The look on customer's faces when you pulled the veil of marketing BS and explained precisely what was what.... priceless. Guaranteed they returned for advice later down the track.
Gene, thank you for the update, my friend is in sales and I disclose a lot of information on him on how to sell receivers and speakers. It's must appreciated, thanks again
I know you guys get a lot of well deserved praise and thanks but this video really was eye-opening. I have a four month old Yamaha Adventage A2060 running a Dolby Atmos 5.1.4 system. After watching this video I wondered how it would sound with a external amplification powering my two mains and possibly my center channel. Based on your recommendation from another video I went with a Emotiva A500, 5 channel amp and my jaw literally dropped when I turned it on for the first time. As happy as I was without an external power amp , Im amazed by The difference .Unfortunately many of us are accepting these manufactures power ratings without realizing the demands placed on the power supply when running a large multi channel system. Many thanks to you for this eye-opening video. The Emotiva, A relatively inexpensive upgrade, has brought a whole new dimension to my home theater setup.
Great feeback, you made a great choice. Thanks Marcus.
Thanks Gene, So much respect for you and Hugo for giving honest and fair reviews and educatimg the consumer like myself that care about specs and dont want to get ripped off. You guys keep the audio industry in check and its necessary. And even though not all manufacturers are being dishonest, it makes it harder for those honest manufaturers to compete against those competitors that inflate their specs. Thanks again , keep cranking out these vids.
Great review! This is something i needed explained for a long time. Mini stereo shelf systems used to confuse me with their power ratings, but now I know that the 10% THD on these ratings is why a 50w/channel 0.08% THD amp sounds cleaner and louder than a 400 watt 10% THD mini shelf system. Spread the knowledge guys.
great video on these AV receiver
I have learned more here from Gene in a few minutes than scanning the web for months to check out the BS in ratings, superb video. When you have the facts, the knowledge and the skill to communicate them its great, superb job.
Thank you for this important info!
Really appreciate it!
Wow what a great & informative video!! Thank you for clarifying power ratings & making it understandable from a layman standpoint. I understand all the jargon & things but you helped make things VERY clear. Well done Gene! Thx
Excellent video. A great explanation that has equipped me, and I'm sure all of the viewers, with a clear perspective of how to make a wise decision when buying new amplification, especially in the AV receiver range. Thank you!
Thanks Gene. That was great information. I enjoy your channel so much. Keep up the good work.
Thank you! Found your channel by chance, Love your videos I cant stop watching them!
Utterly fantastic video. I love the class and professionalism this site brings. The information is honest and accurate. I eagerly await a Pioneer D3 review... as I have been enjoying the Elite D3 line for years (SC-35, SC-75, and SC-87)... they were all pre-Onkyo. I've been a bit skeptical since and dabbled with a mid-range Denon. The SC-87 holds up well with the B&W 600 series 5.2 I am running. Looking forward to it!
This video is very helpful and informative. Keep it up Gene! 👍🏻
Watched many reviews of your channel. good work guys keep it up. Immensely helped me. Thanks
Videos like this really open my eyes thank you
Really educational and I loved the use facts and sound logic to cut through the marketing tactics. Showing the numbers on why your making specific call-outs really strengthens your point. Hard to argue against logic. Thanks Again!!
top notch info!
Excellent video!! A lot of great information on interpreting specs. Thank you!!
Best video EVER! Big up yourself Audioholics!!!
Thanks, Gene! Your video is still educational and relevant.
Love what you're saying, couldn't agree more, keep doing what you're doing my friend.
Thank you for keeping the pressure on these manufacturers and this BS.
Too much of the tech industry as a whole is obsessed with selling you a flashy image and brand, instead of competent products.
Great analysis! This was very informative and helpful.
Great video, in the 70s companies were playing all kinds of games with power ratings. That's why I went to separates with a Carver av705x 125 watts channel 20- 20k htz all channels driven. Big difference in sound quality
Gene! Finally something I can understand as a "newer techie" newbie. Keep up the great work.
Very nice.
I remember the power rating wars of the 60's-70's, which gave absurd claims.
They have become more sophisticated since, as you show here.
This review reminds me of the type of work Julian Hirsch used to do.
I don't think I can give a bigger compliment than that.
Thanks Gene, much appreciated! That was a very important piece of information, and I hope that many consumers will pay attention! I am in business with hi-fi, and we constantly explain to consumers that they should at least compare the power rating of Receiver (maybe 11 x 200 Watt) with power consumption of the device with is usually below 2000 Watts in such case, and search for some magic. What is disappointing, is that today's dealers need such "education" as well.
Thanks Gene, I could have listened to you for an hour easily. All your feedback is always crystal clear even for a newbie.
Coming back to the subject, if all manufacturers could provide a standard graph like you did, sweep freq, specs written for 2ch driven, 4 & 8Ohms, with low THD it would be so much easier to compare each amplifiers.
Most manufacturers prefer to show their products in the best possible light either by massaging the specs or not showing the conditions in which the specs were taken (most usual).
This was a really great video. Very informative.
Good job on the video and article. Very useful at dispelling power rating myths.
Have a Pioneer Elite about 5 yrs old great receiver added a Crown Xl duocore 2505 changed everything ! Great video
Wow. I just bought an old Onkyo on eBay there today, and was wondering what "that" line on the spec sheet was all about. Really great explanation.. thanks!
Can't wait for the pioneer specs, check out the vsx-lx 503, happy new year to audio holics crew, big up from Jamaica.
Amazing video, thanks Gene
I always love your insight on power ratings
Thanks for sharing this video, this helps a lot to avoid the marketing bs companies tries to push onto us.
This was SUPER helpful. Thx a bunch!
THANK YOU; you are doing great job👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you for finding your channel ❤️
love these guys, no nonsense regardless of your price range
this is a super video , thank you Gene , wow I love it !
Great explanation and insightful
Excelente video Gene! Muy informativo. Saludos!
I was looking for a new receiver between Yamaha Rx A1060 and Marantz SR5011. I can't decide which on to get, so i bought an ANTHEM MRX 720. on the AUDIOHOLICS review when you guys first impression "Gotta have it " am like sold, this is the one now my Paradigm Mini Monitor v7, Monitor center 3 V7, and cinema 100 for surround and back surround, they sound so big even though they are small speakers. I never enjoy a two channel until now. thanks boys you guys are honest on how you guys make a review on the product.
Beautiful explanation! Tnx! :D
Love these '101-tutorials' :D
Wouldn't mind more of these 'basic knowledge' videos :)
Thank you for your videos your very informative on information ive had a hard time finding.
What I love is when they take the distorted rating, multiply it by all channels and put that number on the box. Especially in a HT in a box setup with tiny speakers. Oh, where have the old days gone? Thanks Gene!
Excellent video!
Thank you...In the market for some home audio and finding these videos informative.
Wow. Amazing video. Thanks for sharing.
Very helpful Gene, thanks!
great video thank you very much
Love this, this was awesome. thank you
very very informative. Thank you so much!
Thank-you Gene for an informative video and your willingness to call out manufacturers. Because you take the heat from the manufacturers you do this hobby a great service. I doubt the over-rating thing comes as a surprise to most of those watching this, but I think how far over does. I wasn’t thinking it was anywhere near that bad. An eye opener to be sure. In the video you displayed the test result from a power amplifier and how that manufacturer actually under-rated the output. In general, are power amplifier manufacturers more honest than receiver manufacturers?
Good work Gene.
What a crisp review..loved it
This is useful to a lot of consumers that just read the front of a box and say "Wow, 1000 watts!" and manufacturers just get into a pissing match over how much bigger their number is. It will continue to get worse as the number of channels increases and chassis size remains the same.
Awesome video. I suspected this. Now I know. Excellently done.
Hello thanks for your video I decided to get separates (Outlaw model 5000 and model 975 to drive my Bose speakers. Thanks again
Superb! Very informative.
a really fantastic explanation!
Very informative. I seem to remember in the 1970s they were understating the watts to show very low distortions such as 0.001%.
Happy with my NAD 150 true watts per channel. Awesome vid guys
Great video. Should be required viewing for anyone wanting quality receiver.
Didn't realize that Onkyo bought Pioneer. THX 4 that update.
Both are shit
@@ArthaxtaDaVince777 Yup. Avoid both hehe.
great job guys
Thanks, it was so informative.
THANK YOU for your honest, thorough and informational video. It was a good review of what I learned in my college physics class. BTW, nobody listens to just one channel in a home theater setup. BTW, the range of human hearing is 20 to 20, 000 Hertz.
Good info, Thanks for sharing
Keep up the good work...its about time someone calls out the manufacture's and keep em honest...if they want loyal customers they have to provide real world spec's...love the videos have learned alot by watching them...i would request videos of receivers and amps show bench tests of what they do power wise and dynamics, then a overall review....also maybe some of the"best bang for the buck" in differnt price ranges...i think it would better help people get a better understanding of what they are spending hard earned dollars on....keep listening!!!
I'm going to be O.D.'ing on your channel today. Very helpful information.
thank you for being so honest
Good for you Gene...
Don't be afraid to eep on calling BS.
We need informed and enlightened technical folk like yourself to illuminate hypocracy/ dishonesty.
Useful, concise, and easy to follow info for those looking to make educated choices.
Very nice logical fact based Discussion. Lots of useful information to learn! :)
Hey my bro. you're a man with a sharp mind you teaches wisdom when it comes to power and I love listening to you coz you know your stuff you're always putting us on the right road I have an Onkyo RZ- 820 an old boy he's powerful but just as you said with 6 and 4 ohms this shouldn't be but I'm not putting full power out. very nice receiver, thanks again for all the information it keeps me alert. stay safe and be strong.. until
Lionpaw
Gene
Awesome lectures when you are alone. You have my attention now. Cheers
THX, hope it isn't too dry though.
wow. opened my eyes. thank u
Great video as usual Gene, I remember your earlier one on power ratings and meant to make this post back then.
As a very old school audiophile I remember seeing this kind of thing go around before.
In the 60-70s some amp- receiver builders started using things like peak, instantaneous power figures to quote ratings, any kind of hokey thing they could think of to inflate the numbers. It took a intervention by the FTC to bring any honesty or integrity to the process. I think once again the FTC should step in and put their foot down on a advertised power and bring some sanity back.
Great video, thanks.
Thanks Gene, you are awesome.
Wow ! great video. Thank you.
Awesome video!
Thank you Gene! Great video as usual. This is why people should do a bit more research or buy emotive / parasound amps. Any old school receivers are still good.
Awesome, thanks for the info!
awesome video man. am still waiting for a video review of Emotiva xmc-1 and the new Yamaha receivers and pre-amps. thanks.
Thank you Gene for breaking down in understandable terms power ratings and how some companies are playing the numbers game. I should of given more credence to NAD as I always thought they were underpowered now I know why. I was wondering If speaker manufactures play the same numbers game? Also If a receivers true power is 70watts at 7 channels driven what would be a good speaker match 150w RMS speakers? 250w speakers RMS? How do you determine what speakers to use?
Very informative video👍👍
thank you very much for the video.