Can Value trump Quality?! - San Martin vs Pagani Design Sub Homage
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- Why these two probably most popular divers / homages to iconic Rolex submariner on AliExpress this year are priced so differently? In this video, we will try to uncover if the Pagani Design PD-1661 diver is worth the money or if the San Martin SN017 Version 3 is worth almost 2.5 times the price!
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San Martins are definitely on another level. The QC and bracelets, especially the clasps are fantastic.
As a owner off a few San Martins and three Paganis the San Martins are better but only just! For dollar value, the Pagani wins!
I have both... San Martin is much more better in details.
Please , make a rank list of Chinese homage watches involving Pagani, Steeldive, Heimdallr and San Martin.
I'd be curious about what's the difference and similarities!
I own several Pagani Design watches and I must say that I am very pleased with the quality of these watches. About 90% of the original experience that the watch pays Hommage to. When it comes to Chinese watches I have a budget limit of 150 USD. I'm just not willing to pay more and to face the risk of being left alone when there are problems with the watch. So for me the San Martin does not offer that much more to allow me to break my own rule haha 🙂
What problems would you run into? The nh35 is a solid workhorse, and very replaceable. The rest of the watch is pretty much steel, hard to have any issue with that. I'm sure if you feel the quality of San Martin firsthand you'd be shocked it was only around 200 dollars, they definitely have the quality of entry level high end watches, the 500-700 range. They're definitely worth the price.
Honestly for the price of a San Martin I’d just go for an Orient Kamasu. Pagani is great because of their price tag, if they were as expensive as an SKX or a Mako like San Martin, they just wouldn’t be relevant imo.
@@gilbertoflores7397 he might be talking about Quality control and stuff
If the watch breaks during shipping
Shipping it back to China will cost you money
In some cases even the price of the watch
@@gilbertoflores7397 Pagani design water rating is a joke. I have Pagani Datejust and despite of 100m water resistant they collected huge water drop on the dial after being accidentally flushed from the hose, so I had to disassemble them to dry out, most likely they don't use gasket under the crystal like the Casio Duro, but unlike Duro they don't have enough precision to keep crystal sealed once compressed. But that's not something I'd complain about the watch for $60 providing specs much higher than any Seiko 5 out there, just my 2 cents.
Speaking about San Martin, for $200 there are plenty of divers watch on the market, for example Orient Kamasu which is is much more respected brand, and has hacking and hand-winding in-house movement for that price. Orient finishing is also on the very hight level, I haven't seen San Martin myself, but "quality of much more expensive watches" is quite usual marketing bullshit and doesn't mean much, as there are plenty of much more expensive brands with QC issues, however for $500-700 you can find a masterpiece which has finishing quality of $2000-3000 watches (for the same reasons :)
I can't leave it like this. Bought a Pagani, and the bracelet was about one link too short for my 8,5 inch wrist. So I asked forn an extra link. They sent me a complete bracelet! I think a swiss luxery brand will not do this 😀
Even though San Martin is a better quality watch overall , I chose Pagani Submariner as my first Aliexpress watch. The price and material was my reason for choosing Pagani. I will definitely purchase a SM in the future.
San Martin leads all the other Chinese brands by a decent margin. Finish, QC & tolerances are all much better. Easily worth the extra cost to me.
lol no
i prefer sugess
Exactly the video I was looking for - great comparison, thanks!
I managed to get a PD for £40 second hand but never been worn on eBay... resale doesn’t come into the equation at that price for a daily beater that has the looks of a Rolex. It was a no brainier for sapphire Crystal and ceramic bezel... 👍🏻
The speed, clarity and quality of information provided is fantastic. Great review. Thanks for not labouring the point and delivering meaningful insights. Top review
Just recieved my Pagani PD1661 yesterday, Bezel is on point and steady. All The cons on this watch have been eliminated, i'd put my Pagani against The San Martin and on top of that. After 24 hrs it's reading 1 sec Plus thats Rolex territory. It's Definitly not my last..
Very interesting comparison. Great video! I own several Pagani Design watches..4 GMT’s, 5 submariner homages, and I’ve also owned 2 Rolex’s in the recent past. I am very happy with the the Pagani quality. From the looks, to quality, its about 90% of the Rolex experience, can’t beat that. Just the lume that is sub-par. Not too familiar with SAN Martin, but it looks like a great piece.
Pargani are awesome i love mine! Have you seen the new Pagani Omega style watches that use C3 lume but they are a little more expensive
That was an excellent comparison. I like how you flow smoothly over all the details likely to influence the choice. I’m not in the market for either of these watches. But I love watches and know the brands. It’s good to know what they are like hands on. Thanks.
I own the latest version San Martin Sub. It is an absolutely stunning watch in every way. I bought a nice NATO strap for it but I've never used it because the bracelet on the watch is truly excellent. I wear this watch almost every day. The quality looks and feels like a $1,000+ watch. I'd say pay a little more and get a watch that you will love for years. At these price points don't compromise. BTW - Mine has the name on the face and not the logo. I wouldn't like the logo.
@Dean Mignola, Thank you for sharing! 🙂 I agree - SM is very well built! 🙂👍
Great informative video really good pace and easy to understand
I absolutely don't care for the see-through back so that's not a plus for me. And the difference in bezel--that pretty much seals the deal for me. However, that's not to say that I don't have any Pagani Designs. I like the idea that even among homage watches you can choose levels based on budget.
A great illustration of not only where your extra money goes, but the law of diminishing returns: if €100 essentially gets you better build quality, finishing and tolerances, what impact does another €1,000 have?!
@Alex, interesting point! 🙂 Thanks for watching! 🙂👍
Brilliant review. Really good work!
I appreciated the time lapse footage for the lume comparison
great review, love the detail measurements
I just bought my 3rd San Martin… come on FedX…. Beautiful and worth every penny!
Thanks for the review. I chose the green dial SM for the QC and probable long term reliability factor. I chose the SM over the new Cronos sub due to QC with the new Cronos Sub with PT5000 movement. I am looking for a GMT. I am deciding between a Pagani and Phylida. I like Phylida with the exception that I wish it had a clear backcase similar to Pagani. I love the SM and Cronos GMT but I am not sure I want to spend $350.
Definitely love that San Martin. Still don't get the comment about not liking the logo, it's an absolute stunner.
That watch has 3 different logos!
San martin watches are where I feel comfortable . Great watches . Well built. The cost is ok. I had a steinhart ocean one 39mm and ended up selling it . There were a few things wrong with it . I would not buy a cheaper watch then the San Martin .
Thank you for a great comparison video 😊👍
Excellent compairson. Thank you.
I am only seeing the Pagani at 43mm diameter. Is the 40.5mm one a different version? I do prefer the smaller size if I can get the display back.
having the rolex sub design imprinted into my brain I simply can't get over the sm's rehaut and that additional shape on the dial. (hexagonal logo)
looks like a quality watch though. polishing and edges are a tell tale sign.
Thanks for these types of reviews. They really help differentiate these Chinese watches.
I love these worch reviews.
Great review! Thank you.
Hi Shiny! I think the elegance of San Martin is more pronounced... in search of a better word.. it’s presence is just that little bit more eloquent 🤔 the crown, the shine, the bezel...
Great video! Your reviews are on point! Would you consider doing another Pagani/San Martin head to head with their respective Datejust models? Would love to see that :)
Possibly!
Very good comparison, Thank you very much! One might add that there are claims that the movement on the Pagani is in fact a clone of the NH35, and not a genuine Seiko. In my experience with the Pagani 43mm Sub homage, the movement had a terrible "break in": from +2 sec per day, to -23 per day, after one month of use (in the exact same conditions and positions). In any case, I ordered a San Martin four days ago.
It is also worth mentioning that San Martin states the tolerance of the NH35 on this watch to be plus-minus 15 seconds a day, which is way-way much better than the tolerance advertised by Seiko, namely -20 to +40. Assuming it's not a mistake, it might imply that San Martin makes an additional effort to calibrate individually every movement they use on these watches. I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's the case.
The claims the movement is a clone are old and wrong. They were put out there by 'somebody' in order to discredit the watch.
I would like to see SM add a bit or originality, and they could easily compete with the Steinharts.
Based on your excellent comparison, and after much research, I purchased the Pagani over the San Martin to replace my 26 year old 36mm Rolex Datejust with the Oyster band, which I'm giving to my son. I was very impressed with the overall quality of the watch. I only have one zonk with the watch and it's a pretty big one... when worn tight enough to keep the watch from slipping over my wrist bone (I have a 7" wrist), the sharp edge on the bottom of the case on the side opposite the crown creates discomfort almost to the point of pain after a full day of wear. That being said, I would imagine most guys used to larger, heavier watches wouldn't have that problem. I'm wondering if the San Martin, which seems to have a thinner case would take care of that problem. I would enjoy knowing your thoughts (or anyone else's for that matter).
I installed a "glide lock" on my 43mm PD. Now it's an automatic purchase with any of these homages I buy.
Nice detailed comparison! Can you do a review on the less known Steeldive 1954? or a comparison perhaps?
Would like to know how they compare to the Burei which is around 200 Euro? Any experience?
I honestly don't think that the QC or lume difference is enough to justify doubling of the price. That's why I went for Pagani Design Hulk instead of San Martin's (considering they both have relatively the same green shade. Steeldive and Cronos green is a little too dark IMO).
However, if I'm going to buy the black dial version, I'll go for San Martin. I don't want a sunburst in that color.
Thanks This Video Was Very Helpful !
Glad to hear that! 🙂👍
Estupenda reseña!! No he visto otra en todo UA-cam tan completa.
I’ve had my Pagani diver for about a year and a half and…i hafta say…i love it. I have owned two Explorer II and a GMT Master II and I love them and their profound level of craftsmanship. For $99-$139 to even remotely come close is a feat by itself. The weight, the feel, the look, and - most important for me - the durability of this watch has been both immensely impressive and immensely satisfying.
Thank you for your research and recommendations!!
great video😈definitely need this comparison!!!
Thanks for watching 🙂👍
While I understand the idea of Pagani Design as a extremely affordable diver-style watches which cost $70 and have much higher specs than most Seiko 5 out there, San Martin for $200 looks a bit off, as there are fantastic divers alternatives for that price from more reputable brands like japanese Orient Ray2/Mako2/Kamasu or swiss Victorinox Master not to mention other chineese brands like Phoibos and Haimdalr.
Speaking about resale price, I wouldn't even start that conversation on anything bellow $1000 as any official service in 5-7 years will cost you pretty much the same as watches remaining cost which makes them all disposable in 10 years or so.
Hi! Thanks for this review/comparison. I’m wondering if Pagani and San Martin use the same grade of stainless steel. I notice that while Pagani says that its watches are “stainless steel” in its website, it doesn’t specify that it is “316L” unlike San Martin which says that.
PD updated bezel now 2021 to 120 clics and stiff action:) great:)
I’m new to San Martin I have one bronze the quality blew me away I love it at a fraction of cost to my Rolex Cartier Oris even my Tessot it reminds me of there quality in some ways I think Mathey Tessot and st Martin are real gems and are awesome to wear and awesome quality
I like SM watches, and own two myself, I hate the new logo though. The San Martin is no doubt a better watch, and it's the one I would buy, however the price difference makes my choice questionable. I just wish Pagani could sort out their poor bezel actions, and until the do I won't buy another one
Where is the best place to get the San Martin? Love the video
Thanks 🙏
I bought a pagani gmt green/black bezel with jubilee strap and my clients love it. Already 4 costumers asked me what brand it was. One said i have to be careful with a watch so expensive on my wrist 🤣
Thanks for sharing! 🙂👍
I don't like see through casebacks. 1. during the summer it becomes sticky and sweaty much quicker than steel, and 2. with an NH35 it isn't exactly eyecandy to look at.
Great video. I just bought the SM with MOP dial. Very comfortable, slim and easy to wear. This classic 40mm dive watch is a nice change from my larger Seiko divers.
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
@Jan H. Maaso, Thanks for watching! 🙂👍
Great video thank you, just bought the San Martin
Glad it helped! 🙂👍
What is your (anyone's) opinion on the Loreo watch of the same type (Submariner homage and all)? Just over a Benjamin - retail, but basically similar looking. I don't know about materials QC and all the rest.
The San Martin may have better engineering tolerances on the bracelet and be more refined, but I'm skeptical that it's a superior bracelet/clasp overall. When the PD one works, the rolex style clasp is excellent and the thinner links make it feel better on the wrist (and comfort trumps A LOT of other criteria). Id love it if PD offered non-polished centre link option when ordering the sub homage.
Superb !!! Subscribed !!!
Great review!!!
San Martin great lume and bracelet.
But the exhibition back on the Pagani wins for me.
Thanks for the video, the only thing I don't like about the pagani design are the high polished midlinks on the bracelet, the San martin looks like the better watch but it's almost dubbel priced.
San Martin 1958 vintage diver 😍 And not to forget the beautiful Seagull Ocean Star!!!! The Seagull is 🤩
would need a 47mm Diameter, does it come in this size?
What is the model of the San Martin?
I don’t like the sloped rehaut of the SM, but in all other respects it seems to beat the PG - especially in the quality of the bracelet.
I appreciate the detailed comparison. I guess one other consideration would be the environment where the watch is used. I work in a factory environment which sometimes puts my watch at risk. In that application the Pagani shines as a true 'beater'. It looks good and does the job admirably. Should it get wrecked I can get another sub-$100 replacement without breaking the bank or raising my wife's ire. Otherwise - Yes, the San Martin is a better overall watch.
San Martin has for my personal tast nice logo. Both watches especially San Martin put Seiko on shame today.
I would like to see you compare the PD to the Invicta Pro Diver. Both use the same movement and both are in the same price range. I own 2 SM, 2 Heimdallr, and 3 PD. All the 3 of the PDs bracelets had screws fall out not long after receiving them. The SMs are excellent watches for the money. I would say they are equal with Heimdallr for fit and finish and quality of workmanship.
A good video again. Ultimately, I don’t want to wear a watch that feels cheap. Poor bezel action and a difficult clasp can contribute to that feeling. I own this Pagani Design and it is fairly good but I do want a much better submariner homage. Currently looking at the new San Martin offerings.
Steinhart Ocean One. A little less Submariner like, but heavier weight and it has a Swiss ETA movement. Too bad it doesn’t look as chunky as a Rolex though, imo.
Thank you.
Hello ! Which one has sharper edges (bracelet and case) that make it less enjoyable to wear ?
Pagani
Started my watch collecting with Pagani's .. now buying more San Martin's. That said I recently went with the Cronos L6005 with PT5000 and glidelock .. but still have and wear my Pagani Hulk.
Njoying watching your comparison while wearing the same pd 1661 with the black dial. Like your chanal. Regards from the Netherlands. PS. There is a certain backplay on my bezel, but les then the one you have reviewed.
Nederlaaaaaaander! 😄🇳🇱
Does the pagani has oversized crown
I would get the Pagani Design. And I might to scratch the Subby itch. A black Rolex Subby, real or homage, with date is not one of the watches that will be part of my 12 watch "grail" collection as I have defined the collection today. Over 2 years, I came to understand what I really wanted in my collection by buying 25 inexpensive, mainly homage, watches. It sharpened my thinking on my likes and dislikes by actually wearing the watches. The collection totals far too much money for me today. I am hoping to pull the trigger on my first "real" watch this summer.
A blue dial/bezel, no date Subby homage, would be in my collection. I have an Invicta 30092 blue dial with date on a Jubilee bracelet that is the closest watch I have found to my ideal Subby homage. It was less than $70 and has filled the Subby itch quite well. When a watch is not on my list, but I have an itch to scratch just to experience it, I will go with a decent but cheaper version. I have the Coke Parnis GMT, also not on the list, and it is fine. I also have a Starling NOMOS homage, a Benyar Planet Ocean homage and a Paularis Nautilus homage. Each one of these inexpensive homages, as well as all my other watches, has taught me something about where I want to go when I am ready to start investing in both upscale homage watches and real watches.
my first san martin made me sell all my paganis 😂
still the benefit of pagani is, you can treat them like trash since they cost under 100$.
The pagani has more protection around the crown which I think is quite important.
Thanks for sharing.
What it comes down to is if you want a perfect watch, then buy a Rolex. I think people seem to forget these watches sell for under $80 lol it’s astounding the amount of quality and materials you get for that price point. I have a 1991 Rolex submariner and my Pagani design actually feels higher quality than my Rolex. material quality has improved greatly since that one was made.. imo San Martin is NOT worth 2.5 times more and yes, my Rolex is 100% authentic LOL
The result is as I expected. The distance between the two will remain. And so this is a good decision basis. In the last time a saw a lot of "battles" im comparison between both. I want to bring in another player, maybe the hidden champion: Watchdives! According to my experience, they have Pagani prices with San Martin quality. Thanks for the video, I can agree with everything you said 👍👍👍
Thanks for sharing! 🙂👍
Are these made in the same factory? I would think so.
Pagani design has an interesting "issue". How do I phrase this... if you go for more "omega inspired" offerings from pagani design, for some reason, all of these issues completely disappear and it will be absolutely on par with the san martin. The reference PD1667 for instance... its flawless. The bezel is totally fixed, the quality of finishing is unreal, I literally cant believe this watch exists lol. I was so enamored with this watch I went and ordered a couple others. The 1661 and 1639 both have the same issues currently as presented in this video, I was so let down. I had to remind myself I spent 90$ on a watch with an nh35, full and decent bracelet, sapphire crystal and ceramic bezel insert. FOR THE MONEY, its still good, but its not the same. If the 1667 is a "10", the 1639/1661 are a solid 6 in comparison, its that drastic. With the obvious differences in fit and finish and inherent quality, I really want to say they arent made in the same factory. The 1667 is on par with noob factory (this is a "good" thing, noob makes the super clone rolexs; I do not support buying counterfeit watches though, but they are ... quite good lol). At 119$ its a no brainer lol. Its a weird place to complain about a 90$ watch; its the bar was set way too high mentally on my end. At the end of the day, putting these rolex homages on a quality leather strap grossly improves their wearability and aesthetics, but does remove their "tool watch" function (if that matters). My 1639 is in blue and I have it on a cognac strap and its honestly beautiful. I polished the watch myself, so the scratches and fit and finishing issues are resolved on that end.
Full disclosure, the lume is still shit on all of these watches haha. I sure wish theyd fix that, its literally the only place to nit pick the 1667. Its literally flawless otherwise.
For me, the winner is San Martin. Thanks for the review. But is the SM better than a Phoibos ?
The resale value factor is a non-issue... @ $80 even if you only get 30% of resale for the PD you are losing $56... @ $200 for the SM and getting 2/3 (67%) of resale you are losing $66 so in real terms you've lost more on the SM which means your next watch has already cost an extra $10 with the SM, even if it keeps it's resale value better than the PD.
The lack of display case back makes the San Martin a no-go for me.
Very very good Video. Thank you
I m Sure i'm buy the San Martin tomorrow :))
But pagani watches are wonderful,too. I have the Datejust and the Daytona from pagani :)
Greets from Germany
San Martin ALL THE WAY!!!!! Still relatively 'cheap', but great quality nonetheless. Check out their website, some of their models you can choose your own logo for around 10 bucks extra, although the SM logo is O.K. and generally no too intrusive. They are also very responsive to email enquiries. They also do Cellita and PT5000 movements. (you will see a TON more PT5000s in more affordable watch brands in the next year or two. They seem to be HK's answer to, say, the Miyota 9000. A movement to watch out for, assuming they can build a reputation for being robust and reliable)
How does Pagani compares to Steel Dive?
Okay I'm going to roughly compare the latest versions. Pagani design has recently released a new submariner homage but the Kermit. 120 click bezel, all brushed bracelet and better honing and finishing on the bracelet etc. At least that's what I can see from reviewers such as "Watch reviews 4K" and "Horologique"
Now coming to price. $80 vs $210.
The San Martin gives you better QC, better bezel action (though now slightly better because of the new Pangani), better lume by far, better build quality and a 2 year warranty. Lume aside currently, it's basically the same watch bar the clasp and with better quality. I can't justify being charged almost 3 times the price for the same specs on a watch being sold on AliExpress.
Charge me double for good lume, better QC and better finishing but $210 is an overcharge. This should be a $150-$160 watch tops!
Even then, I got my San Martin Watch and it's amazing, but the sharp edges everywhere 😣. Made the watch unwearable even on a nato as the edges on the case would fray the nato strap. Had to file the whole watch down, I'm a happier person now.
Nice review👍
@Stiles Humphrey ,Thank you 🙂
omg the star wars scrolling text 😅
what about seagull watches?
I have a PD-1639 on order because I find that a 40mm watch is too small for my liking. Now, I don't really think that 40mm is too small, but my perception has been skewed by wearing an Invicta Grand Diver #3049 for nine years. It's a monster with a 47mm bezel and weighs about 220g. Since I'm used to seeing a watch that size on my left wrist and I'm so used to having that weight on it, even my actual Submariner feels like a toy in comparison.
I figure that the PD-1639 is a good step towards enjoying normal-sized watches again. LOL
I just got the 1639 and I love the quality. The dial looks better and it looks cheesy on the San Martin. Can beat the price per materials.
How's that PD 1639 treating you? Debating getting one myself. Got an Addies quartz and it really feels small.
I bought PD-1661 for 65 USD from Aliexpress and I feel lucky
The new hexagonal logo on SM makes me want that thing even more.
Really hate it-especially the font and design of the letters.
A matter of personal taste, obviously.
@@brucesherman7258 The logo looks great on the datejust homage with the marble dial, but I agree with you, the logo doesn't fit on the sub homage.
After more than 5 years of buying/collecting watches, I learnt this & came to 1 conclusion - buy a watch you can afford & if you can save us the money, buy your grail watch. Don't spend & waste money on "affordable" watches
Best are great watches. San Martin is just better quality overall IMHO. Good video. Thanks for upload.
I got the san martin but it had a non locking clasp. I complained and they told me its a new version. It does look good and works well but the locking one is much more satisfying
I have several PD GMTs, and they are OK, and pretty good value. However, paying an additional ~$100 for a SM is well worth it. They are better in every aspect.
Thank you.
Did i miss it or did he not state the model number of these watches at any point in his video ?
Are San Martin really 200m water resistant????