As a retired long haul pilot I cannot believe that one person does not OWN a runway. Two controllers controlling one runway is a recipe for disaster. The ‘super smooth’ clipped speech is another safety hazard. Say it clear and say it once!
Only one controller owns one runway, they need to coordinate with each other for each crossing, very inefficient and in my opinion not as safe as one controller owning both runways.
I said it once and I'll say it again, everyone needs to speak slowly and clearly, the few seconds extra helps the medicine go down.Looks like the pilots need to remain stationary until everything is very understood.
And believe it or not, I watched a newly certified controller clear an aircraft for takeoff (not yet on the runway) while there was another on final opposite direction!!! He hit the bricks after that. I had been telling my boss that he was dangerous, to no avail.
Ex-London controller here. Great review of events and considerations here, good job. You lot really need to calm down the complexity of your operations, especially when it comes to airport layouts. Stop trying to be heroes and standardise/systemise things. We did away with most cross-runways yonks ago in the UK (especially Heathrow) and make do with 2 parallels (aprons in middle, minimal crossing), or even 1 for Gatwick (and I bet they shift considerably more there than DCA…). Take a look at Munich’s layout operation. It’s a dream, and incredibly simple/standardised. Take a leaf from their book and stop trying to be heroes
As an international pilot who flew into the USA out of Hong Kong for 18 years, and out of Canada for 10 years, I can tell you that the USA is viewed as some of the best approach controllers, but the ground and tower controllers are viewed as larger threats than most other countries. This is due to clipped speech which leaves a lot of room for confusion. I brief it heavily and will not move a wheel until we are completely clear on what the instructions are.
I thought that was when the pilots is in trouble, if the controller messed up then he still has to call for pilot deviation? I am new to the Aviation community so I have no idea
There are ALWAYS loud and raucous conversations and laughter in the DCA tower cab. It’s on the frequency every day. I have no idea how anyone can work in that environment.
I don't know about US railroads, but British railways would never have been permitted to operate a layout where so many conflicting movements were regulated just by word of voice. That's where signal interlocking came from - it was complex and cost a heap but it positively prevented any conflicting movements being signalled and prevented thousands of potential accidents. In the same way that aircraft design is so heavily scrutinised (Max being the exception that proves the rule). So with that knowledge as background, I find it hard to comprehend how the setup at DCA is ever permitted.
@@wturn5354 this is true and the issue is here you have ground controllers not in sync with the tower controllers for the runways. What needs to happen it seems at this airport is that ground controllers should be restricted from given clearances to cross runways and instead have the pilots switch over to tower for permission to cross the runways. This way you only have a single controller who should know if a plane is landing or taking off or waiting on the runway before clearing planes to cross.
@@wolf2179 Yes, years ago the same controller would be controlling BOTH parallel runways, this was safer because you eliminated the crossing coordination but required a higher level controller. Today the system is “dumbed down” to accommodate a lower skill level. Not all can handle two runways, but is is much safer. I have personally worked that situation, many years ago at DEN, actually with 3 parallel runways over 70 arrivals an hour many times.
Years ago I was a DC-10 F/O flying out of SEATAC. This memorable date was a rare, hot blue sky summer day in Seattle. We were loaded to the gills with a full passenger and freight load and a full bag of fuel for the 10+ hour flight to Narita Tokyo. It would be a max gross takeoff weight departure requiring a very long takeoff roll. We got off the gate on time and taxied south for a northerly departure on the right runway. For some reason SEATAC was doing simultaneous departures and arrivals on the right. We held short for a United heavy jet on final and cleared to land. Shortly after United passed above us and touched down, the tower cleared us for takeoff. The captain pushed the power up and because he knew we had a long roll ahead of us, he kept the power up and the heavily loaded DC-10's momentum going as he finished the 90° turn to allign us with the runway centerline, and we laboriously started to accelerate very slowly down that two mile strip of concrete. I looked down the runway as the second officer jockied the throttles a bit to make sure we had all the N¹ we would need to get the beast safely into the air. "Power Set". Suddenly I noticed that United had not cleared the runway yet as we started to pick up speed. For some unknown reason he had started noticeably dawdling his ground rollout approaching his 90° taxiway turnoff intersection, but to me it still looked like he would clear in plenty of time. As he made the turn he inexplicably stopped, only halfway off the runway! At our 100 knot callout, there he was, not moving! As we accelerated towards V¹, United started creeping forward again, but still had not cleared the runway completely. As we lifted off with a couple thousand feet or so of runway left and the captain called "Positive rate, gear up" I looked down at United as we passed him watching his tail finally clear the runway. The tower controller never said anything after he cleared us for takeoff. If my captain had noticed the situation developing, he never mentioned it. All the way to Tokyo, I kept wondering if I should have called a low speed reject when I noticed that the United heavy jet was still on his landing rollout ahead of us, but although I clearly saw something I didn't like, in my experience I was sure that he would soon clear, so I didn't say anything. But at the 100K callout, well down the runway, I had started to have serious doubts. Did I fail to call for a reject then because in the back of my mind I was concerned about the nuisance of very hot brakes, a cooldown period, fuse plugs melting, a new fuel topoff, a disgruntled captain, paperwork, a call from the chief pilot's office....? Maybe. I've questioned myself about it a lot in the intervening thirty years. Yes, the controller screwed up by assuming that United would have cleared downfield in plenty of time based upon having seen the same situation maybe thousands of times before? Why did the United captain uncharacteristically "dawdle" getting off the runway? Flying fighters and attack jets for decades I had learned in BFM training safety briefs that to prevent midairs "remain predictable". Fancy ad hoc stick and rudder maneuvers in a rolling scissors might yield bragging rights in the debrief or at the bar, but their unpredictability can run jets together. So, United did something unpredictable, the controller jumped the gun, and I failed to have the courage to call for a marginal, rejected takeoff dangerously close to V¹. We all dodged the bullet that day at SEATAC, the holes in the Swiss cheese thankfully didn't line up, but I recount the incident here as food for thought to my fellow aviators who are facing a growing ATC crisis out there today. Stay safe, mon amis, stay safe!
My pleasure, especially if some pilot, some copilot, flying in today's high density traffic environment right now reads my story and becomes the assertive cockpit crewmember who makes that critical call to reject the takeoff and avoids becoming a statistic. For a variety of reasons, the safety environment created by competent air traffic controllers working together with able cockpit crewmembers is more frequently breaking down. There can be a long conversation about why this is happening, but I don't think there are many controllers or pilots who would disagree that there's something wrong going on. I agree with air safety warrior, Dan Gryder (UA-cam: "Probable Cause") who believes we are whistling past the graveyard concerning air traffic control errors which are jeopardizing aviation safety. One suggestion he makes that I agree with is mandating what he calls "the sterile cab" in air traffic control tower cabs and radar rooms. Many years ago, the FAA made a rule for airline cockpit crew members to observe a "sterile cockpit environment" in which unnecessary or extraneous conversation is prohibited during all moving ground operations and flight below 10,000 feet above ground level. A blue light is illuminated in the cabin to let the flight attendants know that they are prohibited from contacting the cockpit except for emergencies when the sterile cockpit light is illuminated. Dan recommends that the same type of sterile environment be created in areas where controllers' attention to there immediate duties are conducted without extraneous distractions from other controllers or non-essential personnel. I think that's a great place to start.
Thank you for this. Questions just start popping out of my head but I don't think an open social media platform is the appropriate place for this conversation. You were the "general in the field" on the day of the battle, so your decision is the only one that matters, but I am curious to know if you ever hashed this through with any other DC10 pilots for their thoughts? And while I am here, my thanks to you and your family for your service to our country.
@@BOHICA_ His commitment to delivering this breakdown to the public as fast as possible - even if it's midnight (which he's done several times in the past). He works odd hours and finds the audio that is not easy to get sometimes. That is respectable. He is also a big part of the aviation community and doesn't strike people down for showing his work.
The pilot’s union needs to get involved here. Make some noise until these ATC training issues are sorted out, you all have some power here to save lives.
I don't think it's related to training (at least for the JFK one). I think it's procedural: why was Swiss cleared to take off while others were cleared to cross? Because they are handled by two different controllers. Why are they handled by two different controllers? Because one controller handles takeoff/landing clearance and the other handles ground traffic. Why is it the case? because it's the procedure ==> root cause = the procedure.
@@Alex_Coaster_Adventurer Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just a hobby flight sim player, but as far as I know isn't it procedure to be switched to Tower whenever there's a need to cross an active runway, and then switch back to GND?
Well thats the problem if you dont pay ATC properly and dont invest enough into their training and establish very clear and harsh guidlines. People start chitty chatty oh 15 planes cleared to cross a runway where someone is departing? No problemos.
As a 40 year ATC I covered for major pilot errors many times. Once cleared a Delta jet to land and hold short, pilot forgot and crossed runway under departing TWA.
I retired 11 years ago. People have seen this coming since they closed the Academy in 1990. It was pretty evident that all the experience was going to drain away all at once about 25-30 years after that, and of course the FAA never did anything to help increase the flow of people in the pipeline until it was much too late.
I retired about three and a half years ago from ATC. I recently was told that the FAA sent down orders that trainees were to receive a minimum of 12 hours of training per week, irrespective of whether or not traffic levels were conducive to meaningful training. From what I understand, this was to expedite the number of controllers attaining full facility certification. Thus, trainees were burning thru their allotted OJT hours. This meant that they may not be exposed to irregular circumstances or heavier traffic prior to certification. A lot of folk were certified post covid under lower traffic levels. You look at the stuff that happened at KSAN and KAUS and it reeks. The FAA claims it was fatigue, I call BS on that. The FAA needs to reinstate the old non- radar screen and realize that cultivating a quality ATC workforce cannot be done quickly or cheaply. The cyclical hiring pattern is also a major problem. The FAA will hire a huge amount and then reduce hiring to a trickle in the intervening years; only to have to do it all over again every 20 to 25 years. The organization is broken. It's only a matter of time before a major f-up happens and the dead litter the landscape.
Retired 30-yr center controller here. This SAYS IT ALL! PERFECTLY! Compounding the situation is the hiring of managers from outside of the facility, many times from outside of their knowledge base, i.e approach control to centers or centers to approach control. Completely different worlds. This is going to get ugly!
@@bwalker4194 Retired in 2012 from Level 12 TRACON. You both have nailed it right on the head. Particularly the bringing in "managers from outside of the facility". The manager when I retired came from a center where he'd been checked out for less than a year on a high altitude sector with the lowest traffic count in the facility. He bid on our manager job and since a "yes man" was selected at a Level 12 TRACON and also at the time was also the Tower manager. Within about three months he wanted to make huge changes in our procedures especially to our TRIP simul operation that he had not a clue of why things were done they way they were, to which our NATCA Fac Rep balked and it was game on with this dude. Horrible stuff and didn't help with management/workforce relations.
@@iahflyr4690 you are correct! I retired 12 yrs ago also from a level 12. They were promoting the wrong people, checking out weak controllers and it hasn’t improved. No fear of having a deal anymore, sad. No accountability, enjoy retirement!
I’ve been retired for nearly five years now - so glad I’m not flying any more. We’re going to have another Teniriffe at this rate! It’s starting to look like “WHEN” rather than “IF”. Having flown all around the world, I never liked the competition amongst American ATC as to how fast they could talk. It’s not necessary, it’s not safe, and it’s NOT professional.
I completely agree. The fast talking is also only useful to native or very excellent English speakers. What's the point in speaking so fast if you have to repeat it three times, increasingly rudely, to foreign crews?
@@WWPlaysHoldem Wrong. 100% wrong! Movements per hour have little to nothing to do with how fast people can talk. As I said- I’ve flown ALL around the world, and that’s with a very major airline. It actually often delays things, and I have heard an awful lot of “say again” and mis-heard communication with American ATC. It’s just not safe, and of course movements will drop to zero when there’s a prang- and never mind the lives lost. The best “Say again” I ever heard was actually at LAX with an American business jet. After the second “Say again”, the pilot said: “I’m from Texas, and in Texas WE - - TALK - - REAL - - SLOW. Can you do the same please sir so my buddy and I can try understand you!” I thought that was brilliant and ENTIRELY appropriate given the way the damn controller was speaking. Out of the four 747 pilots on our flight deck, with all of us being regulars into LAX, (though not Americans), we had all commented how the controller was talking FAR too fast. It’s even worse when they do it to people for whom English is not their native tongue.
@@flybobbie1449 If you mean like a cubicle, I assume because controllers still have to look out the window, so putting walls up won't help there. Additionally, if you have to coordinate with another controller for something, putting walls up won't help there.
@@flybobbie1449 They are it is called a tower cab. Just like pilots have a cockpit. They have multiple controllers with different jobs depending on the size of the airport. I mid size airport would usually have 1 tower 1 ground and one cic or sup. Larger ones have multiple grounds and tower controllers
As a retired long haul pilot, I have flown over most of the world. I can assure you that U.S. Tower/Ground Controllers are the fastest talking controllers in the world which leads to missed calls, miss understood calls, and general confusion. Controllers need to just slow down. Just as many movements will happen because there are a lot of repeated clearances and miss understandings. Controllers cannot sardine more aircraft operations +into a poorly designed or outdated airport.
Everyone recognizes this as a problem and nothing is ever done to correct it. Shoulder shrugs and blaming ATC union rules. Guess hundreds of people will just have to lose their lives because nobody in authority gives a toss.
if even american pilots are complaining that there not understand the too fast speaking controlers, imagin when you are a foreign pilot and English is not your native language . Even if you are fluent, with certain controlers is a nightmare to understand them 😱😁
Astronauts have to learn radio rules and theory in order go get an amateur radio license-this helps them understand how to communicate when things are less than optimal. Intelligibility is something we hams strive for. We understand optimizing our audio and the importance of clear communications. I've never heard some much clipped and pitiful audio than listening to ATC. "Radio Check" is not just about TX/RX but also the quality of the signal, which is a function of many things. Things hams know-as does any audio technician. But no matter how great the audio is, this clipping it and spitting it out is likely to lead to a tragedy or two if something isn't done about it. Also I have heard some great ATC controllers with good audio as well. Those folks are the best.
Juan, i fly for one of the airlines involved in the DCA incident. Over the past few months i have observed as many as three runways in use for departure all of which intersect. The controllers here push departures and arrivals to expedite the flow and at times it can be quite stressful even for an experienced pilot. Last month i landed at dusk after being asked to follow a preceding aircraft that was not following the river visual profile correctly. This caused a potential spacing issue but tower launched another aircraft in between us and then upon landing, asked us to expedite off the runway for a departing aircraft. So i am not surprised to learn of this controller error that could have led to a serious accident. From now on when i push back from the gate and ground asks if i can accept any other runway besides 1/19, i will tell the FO to say unable. Risk mitigation!
I'm not a pilot, but a hobbyist spotter who often watches from Gravelly Point. I've noticed they've been using the intersecting runways more and more. I didn't think the situation was as dire as it is, but it makes sense.
The runway layout at DCA is really unfortunate. Parallel runways are the way to go, not 3 runways where all 3 cross each of the other two. Of course, even with parallel runways, as this video clearly demonstrates, the controllers really need to be paying attention. In my opinion, if two different runways need different controllers working them (such as the examples here,) the aircraft should be handed over to the controller working the runway they're about to cross after landing rather than staying with the controller that handled their landing, but who is focusing on the other landing aircraft behind them rather than on the ones that are about to depart from the runway they're clearing aircraft to cross. Yes, it's an extra frequency change, but it would prevent stuff like this.
DCA has approximately the same amount of aircraft operations per year as Gatwick. Perhaps DCA needs to go down to single runway operation like LGW does.
@@grayrabbit2211 Or Gatwick could do like sane places and build more runways. They really need at least 2 parallel runways, 3 would be better. Also, DCA had 23% more runway operations than LGW last year (310k vs. 253k.) For comparison, BNA actually does have about the same number of runway operations as LGW (272k at BNA vs. 253k at LGW) and it has 3 parallel runways plus a crosswind runway.
In the days of DC-9s and 727s that was the only runway with some proppers on the other two. Maybe a STOL landing. Now with higher climbing everything and a million RJs. They really need a foul deck system ala aircraft carrier there. DCA is an awesome airport to watch. They have always had dangerous lapses. Question is the rate of dangerous lapses up or down. Few accidents though. AA MD-80 and Air Florida only I recall.
I am a 69 year old retired airline captain with 54 years and over 30K hours. I have watched the US airline industry sink into a very disorganized mess. Airlines hiring pilots and awarding captain bids within a year. Very low experience level for entire cockpit. ATC with similar issues. Add in a record number of aircraft flying and ohh yeah, BOEING. Needless to say, I do not fly. No way. With reduced visibility at JFK, it would have been a horrific accident with hundreds of dead. Hundreds of dead. Stop the insanity. All aircraft using a runway must always be on the same frequency! This must stop.
I was just thinking the same thing. Had the weather been bad at JFK that day, it is all but guaranteed that a high-speed collision would have occurred. They might have gotten lucky and missed one or two, but when you have FOUR planes crossing, there is little chance of scraping by all of them. Depending on the specific aircraft, it could have been worse than Tenerife. Both the Swiss plane taking off and one of the crossing planes were widebodies.
@@BamaCyn Even if safety standards are slipping a bit, US commercial aviation is still 3x safer per mile than trains and 57 times safer than domestic cars. Seems that people aren't very good at judging risk!
I'm an Australian, I hold a GA licence and I used to use a radio professionally. I am amazed at how difficult it is to understand a lot of US controllers with their non standard abbreviations and speed of delivery. It seems to me, that the east coast is worse at this than other places. As a user below says "say it clear and say it once".
American here, but I would agree that the East Coast accents are probably harder for foreigners to understand than most other (non-ethnic/foreign) US accents. In particular, the Boston, New York, New Joysey, Long Island, and Southern regional accents can be hard to understand for those you aren't used to them, and all of the above but the latter tend to be spoke very quickly. I consider a generic rural Midwestern US accent to be one of the more "neutral" and easier to understand regional US accents.
Amen to that. Slow down a little. Also, cut out all the niceties like "good day", "see ya", and what ever you can come up with. Just acknowledge and repeat what is required. Nobody cares about your greetings and good byes.
We're all human, but I think the best point you made is the transparency needed when ATC makes the mistake. I'm a pilot so my perspective is skewed, but it seems like we always get the attention if a mistake is made. ATC yells at you, you get a phone number, there is the investigation, and all of it is available to the public. When ATC slips up it almost slips under the radar and you don't get to hear much about it. I'm not perfect and neither is anyone else, I am lucky to not have made grave mistake yet.. I do wish that the investigations were handled equally in regards to pilot and ATC deviations.
I work in ATC in Europe and the airport I've worked at had one incident a few years back when two aircraft were cleared on intersecting RWYs for take off. This was ONE incident in a few years and it got a lot of attention within the ANSP, the state body and changes were made to prevent anything like that happening ever again. In that case the investigations were thorough and effective and published publicly for everyone to read. Our system today, in the tower would immediately give a warning when one controller clears an aircraft for takeoff while another is cleared to cross. It's a simple tool, that would have alerted the ATCO in all of the three incidents, much earlier. Potentially even while giving the clearance in the first place. It's really worrying though, to observe the current events in the US. There must be inherent systematical flaws, that allow these incidents to occur at this alarming rate. I don't know if its an increase in incidents or "just" that we hear about more of them... it unacceptable, regardless.
@@gustavgans8278 You forget that this is America, the orders from on high are "push tin fast", not "push tin as fast as you can safely" and the difference in those two sets of orders is why we're seeing what we're seeing.
Sounds a lot like the FAA marking it's own homework doesn't it. That's going really well for Boeing at the moment too... I think it makes sense for a 3rd party like the NTSB to be investigating ATC incidents. I'm not interested in holding the individual controllers to account, clearly there is a systemic issue across the country given these 4 incidents were at four different airports.
Being used to strict and precise german ATC two things across the pond still confuses me: - two controllers responsible for one runway (in Germany you always have a handover to tower for crossing an active runway - so one person, one runway) - receiving landing clearance before the runway is yours, sometimes even two or three aircraft on approach are already cleared to land (In GER the runway is all yours when cleared to land) With safety standards being the highest in aviation I still don't get why no one is seeing those issues as a serious hazard... 😵💫
In 1995 we had a very similar incident at Honolulu when we were cleared to land on 4R while another large aircraft was cleared to land simultaneously on 8L. A slightly higher pitched voice directed us to stop short of 8R which we did with maximum braking as the other aircraft went speeding across our nose!
It's particularly nerve racking at these larger airports where you have multiple tower and ground frequencies. So hard to build any situational awareness as a pilot. Good on these pilots for still seeing the issues unfold and respond quickly to avoid disaster.
I drive suburban railcars in Australia and your barely concealed frustration at the lack of transparency if control makes a mistake is exactly how I feel in my line of work also. Mistakes happen, its human. I never want to needlessly throw someone under the bus, but just like with ATC, train drivers here have very little transparency available when potential conflicts occur in a controlled location. The pilots in this video definitely did the right thing getting their voice on record here, and I think its extremely important to ALWAYS speak up if something seems off. No-one will ever red card you for valid questioning over frequency. In fact we are trained to be assertive over radio for this reason. Speak up and stay safe
Juan’s pause just before, and then the resignation in his voice as he says “inevitable” is chilling. There are plenty of lessons learned in aviation, but I think this falls into the category of lessons YET TO BE learned.
@@LiquidLightAerospace I’m familiar with that one. If I recall correctly though, it was a pilot ignoring ATC instructions that caused that one. The ones covered here are accidents that (nearly) happened by following ATC instruction.
@@Plutogalaxy I would still argue that the lesson to be learned from that incident and these are the same. The question mark had nothing to do with my assurance of what I was saying.
Juan this situation is seriously messed up. Good job in highlighting this in conjunction with Victor. With the debacle at Boeing, US aviation already has a sinking reputation. A US version of Tenerife will not only kill a lot of people unnecessarily, and will decimate the remaining confidence in the US aviation industry.
@@kenbrown2808 Boeing has and continues to earn 90% of the criticism that has been leveled at it. Has that company determined responsibility for that faulty door installation yet , or, are they still shucking and jiving as if no one outside of Boeing knows how serious that one situation is and what it says about its safety and accountability cultures?
@@dpeasehead no. boeing is currently being blamed for every mishap that affects a boeing plane, even when the mishap is the fault of the airline maintenance process, or even defective parts that are not Boeing specific, such as the wheel that came apart. yes, Boeing has been shooting itself in the foot unusually prominently, lately, but that doesn't make everything that goes wrong a Boeing problem.
I work at the same airline Juan, and I keep looking for you in the terminal to shake your hand. The LAS situation is, IMO, how it’s supposed to go. Only tower should be able to clear an aircraft to cross, so everyone in the loop can hear what’s happening on frequency. When a controller has the ability to create a conflict on a piece of pavement they don’t own the control of, the left hand has the ability to not know what the right hand is doing. Keep these coming. I always learn something. 👍
For you guys who have not subscribed to Juan's Patreon, it is well worth it. There are numerous pilots on UA-cam but they just do not do the depth of analysis like this channel. Juan brings together extensive experience in general aviation, military aviation and currently flies for the world's largest airline as a 777 pilot to Sydney and London from the western US.
Maybe for the JFK incident, they need to adopt what they do at Zürich. Aircraft land on Rwy 14 and need to cross Rwy 28 to get to the south side terminal. Exiting Rwy 14, they are switched to Ground and taxi towards Rwy 28. Upon holding short of Rwy 28, they are instructed to contact the Tower for crossing Rwy 28. After the Tower tells the aircraft to cross Rwy 28 and it has crossed, the aircraft is then again switched to Ground for the rest of the taxi. Only the Tower can tell an aircraft to cross an active runway. No multiple frequencies used like at JFK. My personal thought: The Tower owns any active runway and only they can tell an aircraft to cross it; giving permission to Ground to tell the aircraft is not acceptable.
And standard procedure the world over, except the US. While a lot of the comments here suggest that government funding is an issue the US system needs to change. Continuing on this trajectory, the US is going to have a Tenerife; it's just a matter of when not if.
They were both tower controllers. At JFK, during busy periods, 123.9 handles departures and arrivals on runway 4L/22R and 13R/31L, and 119.1 handles arrivals on runway 4R/22L and 13L/31R. In the case of 4R/22L, they also handle the crossing on 4L/22R. When it isn't busy, 123.9 doesn't get used, and 119.1 handles everything. Additionally, when 4L/22R is used for departures, it's possible to have departures off of 31L at KE. The ground controller wasn't involved at all. In this particular incident, the planes landing on 4R were on 119.1 up until they crossed 4L.
@@TighFighter75 Different depending on the airport. At O'Hare, from what I've seen, the ground controller will instruct planes to switch to tower in the event they need to cross a runway, and once they cross, they go back to ground.
Your last comments about the ATC SYSTEM is spot on, ATC and mostly management has degraded, I was an ATC CONTROLLER for 31 years, retired in 2003, it was always a difficult yet rewarding job, all the facilities I worked at had strict requirements for local controller operating the runways and ground controller operating taxiways which crossed runways to immediately coordinate crossing clearances before issued. Obviously that procedure is lacking and and failing the flying public....controllers are just ASSUMING and gambling .....thus the potential for collision incident is going to happen. The FAA is lacking and failing the flying public.
@@johanjacobs9240 And, interestingly, Fred Dalton Thompson, the actor playing the Admiral on CVN-65 Enterprise in that movie that made the quote above also plays an air traffic controller in Die Hard 2... "Stack 'em, pack 'em, and rack 'em."😊
@@fhturner3 as well as being an actor in several movies and tv shows (he was on law and order too) he was also a US Senator for 9 years, sat on several government advisory and security committees, and ran for president in 2008.
@@fhturner3 Yup, when I read the comment I immediately heard that voice in my head and thought of Die Hard 2. Then I saw the Red October comment and was like, "D'oh, of course!"
For comparison, American listeners could "dial into" LiveATC and listen to something like Sydney or Melbourne in Australia. Even if you are unfamiliar with our "notorious" accents, you should find that you'll have little trouble understanding ATC, be it tower or app/dep. It's fast, but not clipped, no slang, no abbreviations or references that only locals would get, pure ICAO terminology. (fun fact: until a few years ago, you could even hear an American accent! a well-known controller who left the USA after PATCO fiasco and had a long continued career here in the Melbourne airspace)
As an aviation enthusiast and former GA pilot, I've listened to ATC all over the world. I find MOST non-US ATC easier to understand than JFK - and I'm an American.
"you'll have little trouble understanding ATC" But none of these incidents was caused by somebody not understanding ATC. Everybody understood ATC perfectly. The problem is that ATC was instructing people to crash their planes into each other.
You said something about one of the crews "dragging their feet"... The misperception between controllers and pilots about how long it takes to run checklists and act on a clearance is a perennial problem. At my local airport we've had conferences with the class D folks in regard to the differences between jet and prop training traffic. ATC's expectation is sometimes that the pilot/crew will act immediately -- "do what you're told", but the reality of cockpit operations is different and the perception gap can cause issues.
@@theGGonYT controllers receive raises yearly to keep up with inflation. Every year when I was working and now in retirement I received the annual COLA raise plus whatever general raise the President approved, plus any “time in grade”. Controllers are very well compensated, if I was still working my yearly salary would be well over 200k as basically a GS15, although controllers have their own pay band designator now. Pretty good pay for generally 5 hours a day on position, many federal holidays, and 26 vacation days and 13 sick days. So, compensation is VERY good.
@@WWPlaysHoldem So true! These morons talking about pay without ANY knowledge. I retired 12 years ago at $84 an hour! If still working I would be around $125 at least. My monthly COLA pay increase last year in retirement was around $800. I had a great career, and was well compensated and knew it!
I spent 30 years with one of the major airlines and every runway crossing involved both pilots looking out the window to make sure it was safe. That saved us one day in MSP when we were cleared to cross runway 4 while a DC-10 was rolling. I held short and ground reminded me we were cleared to cross; that changed when I pointed out the 10 that was coming our way. Having flown countless times to JFK, DCA, LAS & LAX I am perplexed that no one in these episodes noticed the departing aircraft and stopped.
Indeed, a very good Point! In the JFK incident four Captains had the chance to see that the Swiss A 330 is starting his take-off-roll and none of them catched it.
@jasonperry7970 @alexhajnal107 That's very good! In Sweden we had the same training. "When crossing the street, look left, then right, then left again". (That last left is because, with automobiles driving on the right side of the road, looking to the right you have your back turned to those cars that are closest to you, coming right at you. So making a last look left minimizes the risks for a huge splat.) cheers / CS
As a subscriber to this wonderful UA-cam channel, I have learned that I could never become a pilot. Various reasons prevent me from being a pilot, among the greatest reasons is because I have NEVER been able to understand what practically anybody is saying over the pilot to control communications, much less, repeat it back to the tower.
ATC CHAT Bradley, You are spot on...! In my book much of ATC communication is virtually unintelligible.....and especially so at Kennedy, where speed of communication over clarity seems the norm. I suspect that clarity of expression and clear diction.......more than likely the essential and most important part of ATC training...........has been let slip. Additionally, I would suggest that the increasing practice of Aircraft Call Signs being only alphabetic....and lacking any number component.......is not helping matters. It always seems to me that when an Aircraft Call Sign has a numeric component to it there is additional thinking time and separation in diction available....something lacking where letters only are involved. Much of this is part of the fashionable fad for Aircraft Call Signs to be akin to personalised Number Plates, (Tags), on vehicles.... Clearly a madness....! James Hennighan Yorkshire, England
I don't have this problem as a private pilot. I'm not flying into this kind of airspace. I normally fly out of an uncontrolled airport, but even talking to the local Class D towers are much calmer.
I agree with Gryder on this one: the ATC should run like the cockpit! Nothing but work going on in the tower; no tours, no music, no casual conversations, etc.
As an Airbus captain that flew a lot into LAS and LAX I would always square my turn onto the taxiway I was holding short on so we could see the departure end of the runway we were about to cross.
Given the staffing levels and the workload placed on the atc team it should no surprise that these kind of things occur. Pilots have strict work/rest requirements. They would never waked to pull a double over the graveyard shift but the folks on the ground responsible for that phase of “flight” are required to do it all the time. Juan, thanks for banging the drum on this issue.
That JFK situation...imagine if it were raining or foggy and visibility was hindered. SwissAir would've pressed for takeoff and we'd be seeing the story of the disaster in the news.
If they had immediately started their takeoff after turning, as is quite common, they'd be going 100mph+ by the time this started evolving. Coming to a stop... maybe in time? But, yes, low visibility for sure would have been at least 2 or all 5 planes involved as it was the pilot who said no, not the tower - they were unaware from the sound of it.
A lot of us flying Part 121 have added a new call out in response to this. In addition to the stabilized approach call, now many of us are scanning all intersecting runways and taxiways, then saying, “All traffic clear of the runway.” Tenerife is going to happen again if the spacing at these airports isn’t brought under control.
@@libby2012apologies are treated as admissions of guilt in court, which is terrible IMO. It is also that way in the press. Just look at any high profile negative press issue. When somebody apologizes everybody dogpiles them. When somebody just doubles down everybody moves on and the lawsuits stall out. You get the behavior you reward.
Not aircraft related, but similar in actions. In the military working comm during training center ops, I'm passively listening to chatter on the net aka radio watch. One of our engineer units were scheduled for a range usage and were building bunkers. it's a pretty mundane task if you're not actively communicating and you can zone out. I was on the verge when I caught range control clearing 81mm mortars to fire onto the same range. I know what I heard, but couldn't believe it, so I called a check fire and asked range to verify. He did and checked his schedule, and caught his error. He tried to play it off like he gave them different coordinants until they ran the tapes. All he had to do was fess up to the mistake. No thanks was needed because stuff happens and everyone looks out for each other, but he fought it to the end, even with the tapes clearly revealing what he said. Don't cover it up, take the L and learn.
Yep. I used to have to go out to the Crow Valley range in the Philippines to recover airdrop loads and we had to check in with the range officer. If it was hot, we'd sit in the tower and watch the show (and it was spectacular). God forbid they effed up and we were down there working when an airstrike was inbound. Granted they were only practice bombs, but still a huge projectile traveling at about 300 kts. Would not have been a good day...And I was lucky enough to have served between all the "wars" (except Grenada) so I can't compare it to what the GWOT guys have been through in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Somalia (stop me when the list gets too long)....
@@alexhajnal107 Yes. With people on the range huge flags should be visible to all. With ranges which are too long for a visual, it is essential for the firing sector to be 100% certain that the range is clear using communication.
The one who noticed was apparently the one pushing the others across, so Swiss wouldn't have been on their frequency. Whether they sit close enough to the other controller to get their attention... you'd hope so, but you'd hope only there was only one controller, so, yeah.
Another great report on this important issue. I'm not flying as much as I used to these days, but was in an almost Kablamo at LAX one morning when a Mexicana flight landed and didn't wait to cross after landing on 25L. I was on a United 757 taking off on 25R to Washington DC. This was back when they had air traffic control on Channel 9 so I heard it all. the 757 pulled up a little early and he hit the throttles to flank speed. I saw the tail of the Mexicana plane pass under clear as can be. He put the nose down and the gear was coming up. We crossed the beach at about 200 feet or so. I could read what was on the shirt of a guy riding his bicycle; I would bet the plane kicked up sand going by. But he got the speed up now and started climbing. Yep, they gave him a phone number to call.
Great review Juan! Kudos to both the Frontier pilot and the Swissair pilot for great situational awareness. These reviews and VasAviation’s videos are fantastic for giving commercial airline pilots examples of mistakes made by other pilots and ATC that will help to raise their situational awareness during flight operations.
FYI there is no more “marking the tapes” as long as it’s within (I believe) 45 days any recording can be looked at easily. It does take FOIA request from the public to get a copy. When you call or ask the controller something like this in LAS the front line manager or controller in charge will fill out a mandatory occurrence report which will be sent to the facility manager, QA specialist etc.
As a long time pilot I think I'll drive, thank you!!!! This is getting ridiculous. Airplanes with parts falling off, quality control issues and now ATC problems...
Yep, though it depends where and how you drive (by a lot). Thanks to some excellent PR work, we don’t count road deaths the same as any other kind. Even e-bikes on the same streets get terrible press for 1/1000th of the same level of danger, or “potential” danger as it turns out usually. The US measures car deaths in fatalities per hour. Name any other thing that works that way.
I am retired ATC. Listening to this sounds like some training going on. If you hear two controllers on same frequency it is usually because a checked out controlller is plugged in with a trainee ready to take over. I trained more new controllers than I can count. I usually was briefed on the trainee's progress and ability before I plugged in with them. Your intention is to allow them to do as much as they can as long as it is safe. I would guess they were training on several positions in the tower and that could increase cordination problems. 2 of these controllers sound real green. Trainees are slowly given more intense times on positions as they progress. Every controller eventually reaches their limit and that limit must be able to handle the traffic load of that facility. Many new controllers washout within the first year of the job. Many of these new controllers are assigned to facilities they are not ready for out of school because the facility is near their home. I hate to say this but some come in to balance ethnicity, who are very capable but need more time. Time that busy facilities do not have. My training started at the busiest military airport the Air Force had. I was blessed with exceptional instructor. I have said it more than once. ATC is not for anyone. At the major airports it can be very demanding. New controllers do not belong starting in those facilities. You would not put a trainee pilot in 737. Just to much going on. My FAA experience included ORD, at the time nations busiest. Pilots must alwys be aware of the situations that could effect them and not be afraid to ask and refuse, if you can tactfully, to comply. You are the pilot and hold sole responsibility for you aircraft and crew. A controllers mind slips into a picture of how things are going to work. Your always 3 or more steps ahead calculating, timing, scanning and communicating to get, what we called, "the picture", to work. We can get into a groove and assume everyone else is with us. Many trainees are fighting to keep their heads streight. I could go on. This was a taining situation and coordination was lost.
Sadly too true. Very alarming as an interested non-pilot. It strikes me that workload is way too high - JFK controllers are talking so fast I have no idea how the guys in the short sleeved white shirts and gold stripped epaulets comprehend every word.
We have a saying in skydiving which applies to ATC as well: "slow is smooth, smooth is fast". When you're trying to speak at 4000 words a minute, you're just going to end up having to repeat yourself, and that in the end, will take more time. Take the proper time to do it slow and correctly the FIRST time, and THAT'S how you'll save time at the end of the day.
OK but none of these incidents was a result of somebody talking too fast. They happened because controllers gave contradictory instructions, which were perfectly understood and acted on by the pilots.
From mid 1982 till early 2009, I worked either a 28/28, or a 35/35 commuter schedule on every continent except South America, Australia, and Antartica, and given what is becoming quite commonplace with air travel in the united States, I am so glad I do NOT have to be part of this BS anymore. (And, my @ ONE million frequent flyer miles will most likely never get used) Now, if I want to see the United States, or Canada, I ride AmTrak, or the Canadian equivalent.
Sounds like the same problem that's been creeping into law enforcement for ages. As long as they get to self-investigate (and find they've done nothing wrong) nothing ever gets fixed.
Thanks much for your videos friend! As always, very informative and well done! I usually don't leave comments, but this time I just need to put my two cents in. I have been a corporate pilot now for close to 40 years...flying mostly Pt 91, but have several years flying 135. In any case, over the years I have noticed the slow and methodical degradation of "Airline" safety. Thankfully, I only have to travel on an airliner twice a year to attend Flight Safety Recurrent every six months so my normal routine for the past several years is catch an Oakland to Wichita flight with a stop over in Las Vegas. Without a doubt this is the most nerve wracking part of my year...that airline flight to and from ICT on Southwest! There are several reasons for my concern...the first being exactly what has been highlighted in this video...the mistakes being made by ATC. Of course, I don't think this situation is entirely the fault of the individual ATC controllers themselves because there are many factors that are making their jobs almost entirely unsustainable at this point. I recently watched a documentary that pointed out most of these professionals are working 6 day weeks and 10 hours per day?! I have not verified the truth of this, but if true...no wonder these folks are making mistakes...and if left unchecked...will end up potentially killing hundreds of people in one accident! There are other issues as well...like the increased volume of air traffic, the outdated infrastructure of the ATC system itself and yes, I must mention this incredibly stupid DEI hiring agenda being force fed to many industries including ATC and the Airlines! Finally, from an operational standpoint specific to privately operated, high performance aircraft and yet something that affects all areas of Professional Aviation was this move several years ago to a GPS Navigation Based System to handle the flow of air traffic. I think the system over all is very reliable and accurate and it has allowed more aircraft to use the airspace system due to this accuracy. However, I am concerned that the complexity of this system and the severe lack of "Standardization" amongst the different NAV equipment manufacturers is also putting opening up this type of travel to hazardous consequences if continued in it's current state. The entire system is much more difficult to use due to the fact it is much more complex and technical than the old Ground Based Radio System. From the highly complex RNAV Departure and Arrival Procedures (effectively have to be flown via the onboard FMS system) to the crazy RNAV Approach procedures and the different ways each FMS manufacturer has chosen its equipment to utilize the GPS RNAV System is really quite ridiculous! A literal book could be written on the issues facing "modern" air travel in the USA, but suffices to say, if something doesn't change in several areas, "we," the traveling public are basically playing Russian Roulette each time we get into a corporate aircraft or airliner. I for one made the decision many years ago that when I am done flying for a living I will at that point become what I call a "John Madden Type" traveler...
As someone outside the airline industry, but with an interest in it, I’m concerned that corporate history is being ignored or forgotten, and it’s inevitable that the disasters of the past are going to be repeated. Too much focus on speed and numbers, not enough focus on safety. Stay safe.
Agreed. I'm an engineer that has done a lot of aviation design, runways, airport master plans. The US is needing more runways, first off (ATL went to 5 fifteen years ago, and has plans for a 6th runway), ORD did good things by mostly getting rid of intersecting runways. But I think ATC is stretched. JFK ground, for example, is fast, fast talk. We're in a hurry to get aircraft to cross active runways, we're in a hurry to clear for takeoff, too much traffic in the system.
@@davidfrench5407 with runways either side of central terminal/ramp areas, as shown in Juan’s film, why are they all using just one side of the airport for takeoffs and landings? The safest option is to have takeoff to the south of the ramp (for example) and landings to the north, then conflict is hugely reduced. It’s not rocket science. Two runways at London Heathrow do exactly that, and keep runway incursions to an absolute minimum. Simple solutions to simple issues.
Thanks for another excellent video! Just one nitpick: Swissair is history, it went bankrupt in 2002 - the current Swiss flag carrier is actually called Swiss (same as their callsign, or "Swiss International Air Lines" if you want the full name) and is a subsidiary of Lufthansa.
Good Day Juan and All. As a lay person but with many hours of flight training as a student, I find this INSANE! For a Pilot such as yourself, I can barely imagine what this does to your mind. Each day, the "Holes" in the "Swiss Cheese" grow in number. I understand to the degree that I can, exactly how busy and congested the airways and also the ground traffic situation is. It's seriously time for a Major REGROUP of communications between ATC & Ground Control, or your thought of a Tragedy Will Occur. Safe Flying to You and Best Regards. Thank You.
Juan, good morning. I just want to say you have produced another video. I would say outstanding easy for us to comprehend exactly what’s going on at our busiest airports. It is absolutely frightening as to what is about to happen here in the good old US of A. With the other channels out there, recording ground control, and tower control I believe most of the public wouldn’t even realize these events are happening and compounding. Thank you for your service and thank you for your no nonsense videos .
I am a licensed pilot and a licensed air traffic controller. I also work at CAE as a right seat support for Citation X pilots. I am scared to death about the future of USA’s aviation safety. The entire system of training from the ground up is being filled by kids with more zits than experience and they are just passing on the vomit they were fed with no understanding. The pool of experience and decision making skills has given way to swallow this, vomit out that, here’s your rating and license. In air traffic control and flight schools. Yes, disaster is on its way.
Hi, Dave! I, too am a pilot (ASEL Commercial/Instrument, Mountain, Glass Cockpit, Complex), trained in the vicinity of the SFO class Bravo. Jason Miller of "The finer Points" youtube channel is in my logbook as instructor. I, too, am petrified at the lack of relevant experience that ATC has in or around aircraft. I'm not sure how I feel about the age restriction for controller hire, as it is thrusting young people who can't even afford a teaser flight in a 152 into controlling a sky full of aircraft. I've also known folks who have attempted the transition from 20-yr-old CFI to 121 and 135 operations. Both of these paths are fraught with danger due to no one having any industry wisdom anymore, but only the rote knowledge they've just absorbed from their own CFI's or ATC training staff. Add to that the fact that in aviation Cockiness is the inverse square of Age as Age has wisdom on its side due to experiencing just how easily one can get oneself killed for the slightest lapse of duty or attention. Let's all try to remember the old quote: “Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.” Captain A. G. Lamplugh,
I don't understand the practice in the US of simultaneous clearences for the same runway. Everywhere else in the world (with certain exeptions in some banana countries) I can expect the runway in front of me to be clear the moment I get my T/O or LDG clearence. Hey, what do we have the clearances for? Is it just a coincidence that clearence contains the word CLEAR?
@Alex_Coaster_Adventurer they say it improves efficiency because they can get the clearance "out of the way" and the pilot can land at discretion. Unfortunately this doesn't explain how it is supposed to work in low visibility when you can only see 200m down the runway. The rest of the world uses "continue approach, expect late clearance" or if they really want the pilot to make the decision "land at discretion"
I'm working on my PPL right now and hoping to get into an aviation career. I've been watching a lot of crash reports as a learning tool, and recently started watching these ATC blunders that seem to be happening way more often than what they used to (from what I can tell), and it's certainly unsettling to see these ATC screw ups. What you mentioned at the end of the video seems like a running theme, once a pilot makes a mistake the FAA is on them like no other, when ATC makes these mistakes we never seem to hear anything about it afterwards which increases the concern. Maybe if ATC mistakes were handled with the vigor that pilot mishaps are then ATC would slow down and think twice before giving instructions like this.
I was a failed ATC candidate in Canada with what was then Transport Canada. First rule we learned in Airport ops was the departure arrival controller owned access to his runway. There was no crossing an live runway if it was cleared for a departure or if there was an AC short final. These guys at JFK are playing fast and loose
As an outsider looking in I find it amazing that any 1 (or worse 2) ground controllers can keep a mental picture of the situation. Are they any automated displays of the aircraft, ground route and status ? For instance: lined up & cleared for takeoff = green arrow with flight number. Holding short = red arrow, etc. This may already exist and l may be oversimplifying but as a retired engineer who designed aircraft engine control software it is clear something has to change.
Hey Juan, Mike here in Texas. I'm not a pilot, but have been an aviation buff almost all of my life. I appreciate your insight and commentary on events like these. Keep up the good work, and God bless!
As I see it, it's that the airports are practically in the position of serfs to the airlines and don't stand up for themselves and say "no more flights". Just keep cramming them in closer and closer to each other, hoping that the overworked ( and under-staffed) controllers never make a single mistake. Because everyone in management on both sides wants more flights and more profits.
The FAA didn’t hire enough + retirements + hired DEI people that washed out of training so they don’t have enough people in the pipeline to now having overworked Controllers.
@@EmpReb. BS, and don’t bother with any “I’m not being racist” disclaimer. The FAA is constantly hiring, and their situation is no different than every other skilled position across the USA: more jobs than people willing to take the job at the given pay level.
Juan thank you for your insightful interpretation of all the aviation content on your channel. I always enjoy your videos and best practices you preach. The controller issue is much deeper than these incidents are eluding to. It's not just a staffing crisis. It's a retirement wave that hasn't even hit yet. 90% or controller hired in the 2000s will be retiring in the next 4-7years. In the past controllers would stay until forced out for age but now almost everyone is leaving ASAP. The agency is so poorly managed by people that shouldn't have ever been controllers in the first place. They barely make it then run to find other work in the agency. The amount of fluff/fraud/waste and an abuse of the tax dollar is sickening. Incidents like this I hate to admit will continue as controllers are not afforded rest periods grater than 1 day off. 4 days a month off. I'm sure you're afforded a few more than that a week flying. (I was in the regionals). We generally need double the number of controllers currently staffed to effectively manage the amount of workload and provide the service expected.
As a European I am also astonished that you can clear several aircraft to use the same runway at the same time. That definitely does not instate any sort of control or barrier around those runways
A work colleague arrived from Ft. Lauderdale yesterday afternoon to BWI Baltimore and said he was delayed because his flight did a go around. He said the captain explained it later on and told passengers there was a plane on the runway. 4/22/24 late afternoon.
Thanks for the shoutout and analysis as always, Juan
You do a great job 👍
Both of you are very goodd
Thank you very much for the great Work to pick all these incidents up and for making them Public!👍
Victor, you’re great. I love the way Juan adds commentary to your fantastic coverage!
Thank you Victor for these videos
As a retired long haul pilot I cannot believe that one person does not OWN a runway. Two controllers controlling one runway is a recipe for disaster. The ‘super smooth’ clipped speech is another safety hazard. Say it clear and say it once!
You are right sir -- stand by ! Glad u r retired !
Only one controller owns one runway, they need to coordinate with each other for each crossing, very inefficient and in my opinion not as safe as one controller owning both runways.
I said it once and I'll say it again, everyone needs to speak slowly and clearly, the few seconds extra helps the medicine go down.Looks like the pilots need to remain stationary until everything is very understood.
And believe it or not, I watched a newly certified controller clear an aircraft for takeoff (not yet on the runway) while there was another on final opposite direction!!! He hit the bricks after that. I had been telling my boss that he was dangerous, to no avail.
You guys are probably saving lives with this if you get the FAA to hear this.
Ex-London controller here. Great review of events and considerations here, good job.
You lot really need to calm down the complexity of your operations, especially when it comes to airport layouts. Stop trying to be heroes and standardise/systemise things. We did away with most cross-runways yonks ago in the UK (especially Heathrow) and make do with 2 parallels (aprons in middle, minimal crossing), or even 1 for Gatwick (and I bet they shift considerably more there than DCA…).
Take a look at Munich’s layout operation. It’s a dream, and incredibly simple/standardised. Take a leaf from their book and stop trying to be heroes
That SwissAir pilot was extremely professional and took the high road regarding his comments about traffic on the runway!
He was both pilot and ATC.
He just wanted to get home lol
I noticed that too. Very Swiss of him!
Btw guys, swissair died in 2001. Its swiss, not swissair
@@Hzwo.0 we’re not calling it Swiss lol
As an international pilot who flew into the USA out of Hong Kong for 18 years, and out of Canada for 10 years, I can tell you that the USA is viewed as some of the best approach controllers, but the ground and tower controllers are viewed as larger threats than most other countries. This is due to clipped speech which leaves a lot of room for confusion. I brief it heavily and will not move a wheel until we are completely clear on what the instructions are.
What do you mean by clipped speech 💬?
@@iancairns7398 New York controllers are notorious for non-standard phraseology.
@@iancairns7398 non-standard and fast, which inevitably clips words. Without clearly annunciating words the result can be misinterpreted.
@@planetalk1662 thanks for the reply 🙏
enunciating - to say or pronounce clearly.
I love hearing a pilot asking ATC for a phone number to call.
I thought that was when the pilots is in trouble, if the controller messed up then he still has to call for pilot deviation? I am new to the Aviation community so I have no idea
There are ALWAYS loud and raucous conversations and laughter in the DCA tower cab. It’s on the frequency every day. I have no idea how anyone can work in that environment.
100% nobody will be fired even after accident
I'm incredulous, the cockpit must be sterile but the tower, no?
That’s been going on in DCA tower for years now. I was based there in 2017 and 2018 and i remember it
Hopefully Southwest got a phone number so the controllers could apologize!
“Wow! They’re having a great time in there.” (Bob Uecker Miller Lite Commercial)
As a railroader, having multiple controllers operate the same real estate is crazy to me.
I don't know about US railroads, but British railways would never have been permitted to operate a layout where so many conflicting movements were regulated just by word of voice. That's where signal interlocking came from - it was complex and cost a heap but it positively prevented any conflicting movements being signalled and prevented thousands of potential accidents. In the same way that aircraft design is so heavily scrutinised (Max being the exception that proves the rule). So with that knowledge as background, I find it hard to comprehend how the setup at DCA is ever permitted.
@@cr10001 In before someone says "the redcoats are coming"
Only one controller controls each frequency/runway or airspace, no one “shares” responsibility.
@@wturn5354 this is true and the issue is here you have ground controllers not in sync with the tower controllers for the runways. What needs to happen it seems at this airport is that ground controllers should be restricted from given clearances to cross runways and instead have the pilots switch over to tower for permission to cross the runways. This way you only have a single controller who should know if a plane is landing or taking off or waiting on the runway before clearing planes to cross.
@@wolf2179 Yes, years ago the same controller would be controlling BOTH
parallel runways, this was safer because you eliminated the crossing coordination but required a higher level controller. Today the system is “dumbed down” to accommodate a lower skill level. Not all can handle two runways, but is is much safer. I have personally worked that situation, many years ago at DEN, actually with 3 parallel runways over 70 arrivals an hour many times.
Years ago I was a DC-10 F/O flying out of SEATAC. This memorable date was a rare, hot blue sky summer day in Seattle. We were loaded to the gills with a full passenger and freight load and a full bag of fuel for the 10+ hour flight to Narita Tokyo. It would be a max gross takeoff weight departure requiring a very long takeoff roll. We got off the gate on time and taxied south for a northerly departure on the right runway. For some reason SEATAC was doing simultaneous departures and arrivals on the right. We held short for a United heavy jet on final and cleared to land. Shortly after United passed above us and touched down, the tower cleared us for takeoff. The captain pushed the power up and because he knew we had a long roll ahead of us, he kept the power up and the heavily loaded DC-10's momentum going as he finished the 90° turn to allign us with the runway centerline, and we laboriously started to accelerate very slowly down that two mile strip of concrete. I looked down the runway as the second officer jockied the throttles a bit to make sure we had all the N¹ we would need to get the beast safely into the air. "Power Set". Suddenly I noticed that United had not cleared the runway yet as we started to pick up speed. For some unknown reason he had started noticeably dawdling his ground rollout approaching his 90° taxiway turnoff intersection, but to me it still looked like he would clear in plenty of time. As he made the turn he inexplicably stopped, only halfway off the runway! At our 100 knot callout, there he was, not moving! As we accelerated towards V¹, United started creeping forward again, but still had not cleared the runway completely. As we lifted off with a couple thousand feet or so of runway left and the captain called "Positive rate, gear up" I looked down at United as we passed him watching his tail finally clear the runway.
The tower controller never said anything after he cleared us for takeoff. If my captain had noticed the situation developing, he never mentioned it. All the way to Tokyo, I kept wondering if I should have called a low speed reject when I noticed that the United heavy jet was still on his landing rollout ahead of us, but although I clearly saw something I didn't like, in my experience I was sure that he would soon clear, so I didn't say anything. But at the 100K callout, well down the runway, I had started to have serious doubts. Did I fail to call for a reject then because in the back of my mind I was concerned about the nuisance of very hot brakes, a cooldown period, fuse plugs melting, a new fuel topoff, a disgruntled captain, paperwork, a call from the chief pilot's office....? Maybe. I've questioned myself about it a lot in the intervening thirty years.
Yes, the controller screwed up by assuming that United would have cleared downfield in plenty of time based upon having seen the same situation maybe thousands of times before? Why did the United captain uncharacteristically "dawdle" getting off the runway? Flying fighters and attack jets for decades I had learned in BFM training safety briefs that to prevent midairs "remain predictable". Fancy ad hoc stick and rudder maneuvers in a rolling scissors might yield bragging rights in the debrief or at the bar, but their unpredictability can run jets together. So, United did something unpredictable, the controller jumped the gun, and I failed to have the courage to call for a marginal, rejected takeoff dangerously close to V¹. We all dodged the bullet that day at SEATAC, the holes in the Swiss cheese thankfully didn't line up, but I recount the incident here as food for thought to my fellow aviators who are facing a growing ATC crisis out there today. Stay safe, mon amis, stay safe!
Thanks for the write-up.
My pleasure, especially if some pilot, some copilot, flying in today's high density traffic environment right now reads my story and becomes the assertive cockpit crewmember who makes that critical call to reject the takeoff and avoids becoming a statistic.
For a variety of reasons, the safety environment created by competent air traffic controllers working together with able cockpit crewmembers is more frequently breaking down. There can be a long conversation about why this is happening, but I don't think there are many controllers or pilots who would disagree that there's something wrong going on. I agree with air safety warrior, Dan Gryder (UA-cam: "Probable Cause") who believes we are whistling past the graveyard concerning air traffic control errors which are jeopardizing aviation safety. One suggestion he makes that I agree with is mandating what he calls "the sterile cab" in air traffic control tower cabs and radar rooms. Many years ago, the FAA made a rule for airline cockpit crew members to observe a "sterile cockpit environment" in which unnecessary or extraneous conversation is prohibited during all moving ground operations and flight below 10,000 feet above ground level. A blue light is illuminated in the cabin to let the flight attendants know that they are prohibited from contacting the cockpit except for emergencies when the sterile cockpit light is illuminated. Dan recommends that the same type of sterile environment be created in areas where controllers' attention to there immediate duties are conducted without extraneous distractions from other controllers or non-essential personnel. I think that's a great place to start.
Thank you for this. Questions just start popping out of my head but I don't think an open social media platform is the appropriate place for this conversation. You were the "general in the field" on the day of the battle, so your decision is the only one that matters, but I am curious to know if you ever hashed this through with any other DC10 pilots for their thoughts?
And while I am here, my thanks to you and your family for your service to our country.
VASaviation is impressive how he gets them out so fast... huge respect.
Why is this "respect"? What does that even attribute?
@@BOHICA_ His commitment to delivering this breakdown to the public as fast as possible - even if it's midnight (which he's done several times in the past). He works odd hours and finds the audio that is not easy to get sometimes. That is respectable. He is also a big part of the aviation community and doesn't strike people down for showing his work.
The pilot’s union needs to get involved here. Make some noise until these ATC training issues are sorted out, you all have some power here to save lives.
I don't think it's related to training (at least for the JFK one). I think it's procedural: why was Swiss cleared to take off while others were cleared to cross? Because they are handled by two different controllers. Why are they handled by two different controllers? Because one controller handles takeoff/landing clearance and the other handles ground traffic. Why is it the case? because it's the procedure ==> root cause = the procedure.
@@Alex_Coaster_Adventurer Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just a hobby flight sim player, but as far as I know isn't it procedure to be switched to Tower whenever there's a need to cross an active runway, and then switch back to GND?
@@spicyweasel in most airport yes. But apparently not in JFK
Well thats the problem if you dont pay ATC properly and dont invest enough into their training and establish very clear and harsh guidlines. People start chitty chatty oh 15 planes cleared to cross a runway where someone is departing? No problemos.
As a 40 year ATC I covered for major pilot errors many times. Once cleared a Delta jet to land and hold short, pilot forgot and crossed runway under departing TWA.
You called it, Juan. Jan 29 2025 it happened.
Retired ATC about 9 years ago. Could see this coming back then.
Glad you're intact mentally and physically
What did you see then?
Yes what was concerning you .
I retired 11 years ago. People have seen this coming since they closed the Academy in 1990. It was pretty evident that all the experience was going to drain away all at once about 25-30 years after that, and of course the FAA never did anything to help increase the flow of people in the pipeline until it was much too late.
Staffing levels? Or not enough training? Or something else?
I retired about three and a half years ago from ATC. I recently was told that the FAA sent down orders that trainees were to receive a minimum of 12 hours of training per week, irrespective of whether or not traffic levels were conducive to meaningful training. From what I understand, this was to expedite the number of controllers attaining full facility certification. Thus, trainees were burning thru their allotted OJT hours. This meant that they may not be exposed to irregular circumstances or heavier traffic prior to certification. A lot of folk were certified post covid under lower traffic levels. You look at the stuff that happened at KSAN and KAUS and it reeks. The FAA claims it was fatigue, I call BS on that. The FAA needs to reinstate the old non- radar screen and realize that cultivating a quality ATC workforce cannot be done quickly or cheaply. The cyclical hiring pattern is also a major problem. The FAA will hire a huge amount and then reduce hiring to a trickle in the intervening years; only to have to do it all over again every 20 to 25 years. The organization is broken. It's only a matter of time before a major f-up happens and the dead litter the landscape.
Retired 30-yr center controller here. This SAYS IT ALL! PERFECTLY! Compounding the situation is the hiring of managers from outside of the facility, many times from outside of their knowledge base, i.e approach control to centers or centers to approach control. Completely different worlds. This is going to get ugly!
Crazy the govt budgets have increased substantially in the last few years yet corners are being cut like this. Where is it all going?
@@bwalker4194 Retired in 2012 from Level 12 TRACON. You both have nailed it right on the head. Particularly the bringing in "managers from outside of the facility". The manager when I retired came from a center where he'd been checked out for less than a year on a high altitude sector with the lowest traffic count in the facility. He bid on our manager job and since a "yes man" was selected at a Level 12 TRACON and also at the time was also the Tower manager. Within about three months he wanted to make huge changes in our procedures especially to our TRIP simul operation that he had not a clue of why things were done they way they were, to which our NATCA Fac Rep balked and it was game on with this dude. Horrible stuff and didn't help with management/workforce relations.
Wasting resources regulating model airplanes.
@@iahflyr4690 you are correct! I retired 12 yrs ago also from a level 12. They were promoting the wrong people, checking out weak controllers and it hasn’t improved. No fear of having a deal anymore, sad. No accountability, enjoy retirement!
Victor is doing important work. Everyone needs to support him.
I don't get how he's so fast. He's got good sources! :)
I’ve been retired for nearly five years now - so glad I’m not flying any more. We’re going to have another Teniriffe at this rate! It’s starting to look like “WHEN” rather than “IF”.
Having flown all around the world, I never liked the competition amongst American ATC as to how fast they could talk.
It’s not necessary, it’s not safe, and it’s NOT professional.
I completely agree. The fast talking is also only useful to native or very excellent English speakers. What's the point in speaking so fast if you have to repeat it three times, increasingly rudely, to foreign crews?
I can assure you that at many towers if they didn’t speak fast enough there would be less traffic getting in and out of the airport per hour.
@@WWPlaysHoldem Wrong.
100% wrong!
Movements per hour have little to nothing to do with how fast people can talk. As I said- I’ve flown ALL around the world, and that’s with a very major airline. It actually often delays things, and I have heard an awful lot of “say again” and mis-heard communication with American ATC. It’s just not safe, and of course movements will drop to zero when there’s a prang- and never mind the lives lost.
The best “Say again” I ever heard was actually at LAX with an American business jet.
After the second “Say again”, the pilot said: “I’m from Texas, and in Texas WE - - TALK - - REAL - - SLOW. Can you do the same please sir so my buddy and I can try understand you!”
I thought that was brilliant and ENTIRELY appropriate given the way the damn controller was speaking. Out of the four 747 pilots on our flight deck, with all of us being regulars into LAX, (though not Americans), we had all commented how the controller was talking FAR too fast.
It’s even worse when they do it to people for whom English is not their native tongue.
As the old saying goes: "Work slower, it will go faster."
@@WWPlaysHoldem If fast doesn't work, make it slower. It's going to cost less (in time, money and security).
The pilots have sterile cockpits, the towers do not have those same requirements. That's a good call Juan!
That is not entirely true
Why aren't controllers in their own booth, with no distractions.
@@flybobbie1449 If you mean like a cubicle, I assume because controllers still have to look out the window, so putting walls up won't help there. Additionally, if you have to coordinate with another controller for something, putting walls up won't help there.
@@flybobbie1449 They are it is called a tower cab. Just like pilots have a cockpit. They have multiple controllers with different jobs depending on the size of the airport. I mid size airport would usually have 1 tower 1 ground and one cic or sup. Larger ones have multiple grounds and tower controllers
@@CaptainKevinyeah ground and tower need to talk to each other
What an excellent time to rerun this episode great work as always Juan.
As a retired long haul pilot, I have flown over most of the world. I can assure you that U.S. Tower/Ground Controllers are the fastest talking controllers in the world which leads to missed calls, miss understood calls, and general confusion. Controllers need to just slow down. Just as many movements will happen because there are a lot of repeated clearances and miss understandings. Controllers cannot sardine more aircraft operations +into a poorly designed or outdated airport.
Everyone recognizes this as a problem and nothing is ever done to correct it. Shoulder shrugs and blaming ATC union rules. Guess hundreds of people will just have to lose their lives because nobody in authority gives a toss.
I remember that one video where a controller said "cleared to land" almost as a single sound. "Cladala."
Indeed, exactly!👍
if even american pilots are complaining that there not understand the too fast speaking controlers, imagin when you are a foreign pilot and English is not your native language .
Even if you are fluent, with certain controlers is a nightmare to understand them 😱😁
Astronauts have to learn radio rules and theory in order go get an amateur radio license-this helps them understand how to communicate when things are less than optimal. Intelligibility is something we hams strive for. We understand optimizing our audio and the importance of clear communications. I've never heard some much clipped and pitiful audio than listening to ATC. "Radio Check" is not just about TX/RX but also the quality of the signal, which is a function of many things. Things hams know-as does any audio technician. But no matter how great the audio is, this clipping it and spitting it out is likely to lead to a tragedy or two if something isn't done about it.
Also I have heard some great ATC controllers with good audio as well. Those folks are the best.
Juan, i fly for one of the airlines involved in the DCA incident. Over the past few months i have observed as many as three runways in use for departure all of which intersect. The controllers here push departures and arrivals to expedite the flow and at times it can be quite stressful even for an experienced pilot. Last month i landed at dusk after being asked to follow a preceding aircraft that was not following the river visual profile correctly. This caused a potential spacing issue but tower launched another aircraft in between us and then upon landing, asked us to expedite off the runway for a departing aircraft. So i am not surprised to learn of this controller error that could have led to a serious accident. From now on when i push back from the gate and ground asks if i can accept any other runway besides 1/19, i will tell the FO to say unable. Risk mitigation!
I'm not a pilot, but a hobbyist spotter who often watches from Gravelly Point. I've noticed they've been using the intersecting runways more and more. I didn't think the situation was as dire as it is, but it makes sense.
The runway layout at DCA is really unfortunate. Parallel runways are the way to go, not 3 runways where all 3 cross each of the other two. Of course, even with parallel runways, as this video clearly demonstrates, the controllers really need to be paying attention.
In my opinion, if two different runways need different controllers working them (such as the examples here,) the aircraft should be handed over to the controller working the runway they're about to cross after landing rather than staying with the controller that handled their landing, but who is focusing on the other landing aircraft behind them rather than on the ones that are about to depart from the runway they're clearing aircraft to cross. Yes, it's an extra frequency change, but it would prevent stuff like this.
DCA has approximately the same amount of aircraft operations per year as Gatwick. Perhaps DCA needs to go down to single runway operation like LGW does.
@@grayrabbit2211 Or Gatwick could do like sane places and build more runways. They really need at least 2 parallel runways, 3 would be better. Also, DCA had 23% more runway operations than LGW last year (310k vs. 253k.)
For comparison, BNA actually does have about the same number of runway operations as LGW (272k at BNA vs. 253k at LGW) and it has 3 parallel runways plus a crosswind runway.
In the days of DC-9s and 727s that was the only runway with some proppers on the other two. Maybe a STOL landing. Now with higher climbing everything and a million RJs. They really need a foul deck system ala aircraft carrier there. DCA is an awesome airport to watch. They have always had dangerous lapses. Question is the rate of dangerous lapses up or down. Few accidents though. AA MD-80 and Air Florida only I recall.
I am a 69 year old retired airline captain with 54 years and over 30K hours.
I have watched the US airline industry sink into a very disorganized mess. Airlines hiring pilots and awarding captain bids within a year. Very low experience level for entire cockpit. ATC with similar issues. Add in a record number of aircraft flying and ohh yeah, BOEING. Needless to say, I do not fly. No way. With reduced visibility at JFK, it would have been a horrific accident with hundreds of dead. Hundreds of dead. Stop the insanity. All aircraft using a runway must always be on the same frequency! This must stop.
Very well said!
I haven't flown since early 2001. I agree that flying is a scary thought now and hope I never need to fly again.
I was just thinking the same thing. Had the weather been bad at JFK that day, it is all but guaranteed that a high-speed collision would have occurred. They might have gotten lucky and missed one or two, but when you have FOUR planes crossing, there is little chance of scraping by all of them. Depending on the specific aircraft, it could have been worse than Tenerife. Both the Swiss plane taking off and one of the crossing planes were widebodies.
@@BamaCyn Even if safety standards are slipping a bit, US commercial aviation is still 3x safer per mile than trains and 57 times safer than domestic cars. Seems that people aren't very good at judging risk!
i agree😢
I'm an Australian, I hold a GA licence and I used to use a radio professionally. I am amazed at how difficult it is to understand a lot of US controllers with their non standard abbreviations and speed of delivery. It seems to me, that the east coast is worse at this than other places. As a user below says "say it clear and say it once".
American here, but I would agree that the East Coast accents are probably harder for foreigners to understand than most other (non-ethnic/foreign) US accents. In particular, the Boston, New York, New Joysey, Long Island, and Southern regional accents can be hard to understand for those you aren't used to them, and all of the above but the latter tend to be spoke very quickly.
I consider a generic rural Midwestern US accent to be one of the more "neutral" and easier to understand regional US accents.
I don’t think prizes should be handed out for how fast you speak anymore, regardless of how cool it made you look in the olden days.
"CLAH!" is not a landing clearance!
@@6yjjk”kladala” click
"Clahdalah" I said it three times!
AMEN 👍👍👍
Amen to that. Slow down a little. Also, cut out all the niceties like "good day", "see ya", and what ever you can come up with. Just acknowledge and repeat what is required. Nobody cares about your greetings and good byes.
Former Alaska Airlines technician here Juan, we owe you a debt of gratitude for what your doing on this channel. Thank you.
Even us certified master toilet technicians [plumbers] think Juan is the best of the best
We're all human, but I think the best point you made is the transparency needed when ATC makes the mistake. I'm a pilot so my perspective is skewed, but it seems like we always get the attention if a mistake is made. ATC yells at you, you get a phone number, there is the investigation, and all of it is available to the public. When ATC slips up it almost slips under the radar and you don't get to hear much about it. I'm not perfect and neither is anyone else, I am lucky to not have made grave mistake yet.. I do wish that the investigations were handled equally in regards to pilot and ATC deviations.
The government has never been very good at calling themselves out. But they’ll call you out sure enough.
I work in ATC in Europe and the airport I've worked at had one incident a few years back when two aircraft were cleared on intersecting RWYs for take off. This was ONE incident in a few years and it got a lot of attention within the ANSP, the state body and changes were made to prevent anything like that happening ever again. In that case the investigations were thorough and effective and published publicly for everyone to read.
Our system today, in the tower would immediately give a warning when one controller clears an aircraft for takeoff while another is cleared to cross. It's a simple tool, that would have alerted the ATCO in all of the three incidents, much earlier. Potentially even while giving the clearance in the first place.
It's really worrying though, to observe the current events in the US. There must be inherent systematical flaws, that allow these incidents to occur at this alarming rate. I don't know if its an increase in incidents or "just" that we hear about more of them... it unacceptable, regardless.
@@gustavgans8278 Thank you very much for this informative statement!👍
@@gustavgans8278
You forget that this is America, the orders from on high are "push tin fast", not "push tin as fast as you can safely" and the difference in those two sets of orders is why we're seeing what we're seeing.
Sounds a lot like the FAA marking it's own homework doesn't it. That's going really well for Boeing at the moment too... I think it makes sense for a 3rd party like the NTSB to be investigating ATC incidents. I'm not interested in holding the individual controllers to account, clearly there is a systemic issue across the country given these 4 incidents were at four different airports.
Retired captain here. This has gotten out of hand. Things are falling apart in America's aviation.
It's not just aviation.
Things are falling apart in America's ___________________ *insert here.
@@citizenblue At least we are making great strides in being "greener," and diversity!
As we circle the drain, you may want to increase the bank angle.
@@ourlifeinwyoming4654 It's not just America.
Being used to strict and precise german ATC two things across the pond still confuses me:
- two controllers responsible for one runway (in Germany you always have a handover to tower for crossing an active runway - so one person, one runway)
- receiving landing clearance before the runway is yours, sometimes even two or three aircraft on approach are already cleared to land (In GER the runway is all yours when cleared to land)
With safety standards being the highest in aviation I still don't get why no one is seeing those issues as a serious hazard... 😵💫
I think it's only the US that allows a landing clearance onto a runway that has traffic on it.
You’re surprised America has a competence shortage?
have you heard of some of the shit our politicians do?
@@tacticallemon7518 Senator Biden wants to know your location
I was thinking that this separation would be needed for keep that minimum safety. Good to know it's done like that over here.
That’s how it’s done South Africa.
In 1995 we had a very similar incident at Honolulu when we were cleared to land on 4R while another large aircraft was cleared to land simultaneously on 8L. A slightly higher pitched voice directed us to stop short of 8R which we did with maximum braking as the other aircraft went speeding across our nose!
Aloha and Mahalo 🤙😎🤦♀️😂
It's particularly nerve racking at these larger airports where you have multiple tower and ground frequencies. So hard to build any situational awareness as a pilot. Good on these pilots for still seeing the issues unfold and respond quickly to avoid disaster.
I drive suburban railcars in Australia and your barely concealed frustration at the lack of transparency if control makes a mistake is exactly how I feel in my line of work also. Mistakes happen, its human. I never want to needlessly throw someone under the bus, but just like with ATC, train drivers here have very little transparency available when potential conflicts occur in a controlled location.
The pilots in this video definitely did the right thing getting their voice on record here, and I think its extremely important to ALWAYS speak up if something seems off.
No-one will ever red card you for valid questioning over frequency. In fact we are trained to be assertive over radio for this reason.
Speak up and stay safe
Unfortunately I think there will be an accident if this isn’t cleaned up. These mistakes are becoming more and more common.
Juan’s pause just before, and then the resignation in his voice as he says “inevitable” is chilling.
There are plenty of lessons learned in aviation, but I think this falls into the category of lessons YET TO BE learned.
@andrewb9590 the largest loss of life ever in an aircraft disaster happened this way? Look up the Tenerife Airport Disaster
@@LiquidLightAerospace I’m familiar with that one. If I recall correctly though, it was a pilot ignoring ATC instructions that caused that one. The ones covered here are accidents that (nearly) happened by following ATC instruction.
@andrewb9590 that's fair, I thought we were just discussing runway collisions in general. I do believe you're correct
@@Plutogalaxy I would still argue that the lesson to be learned from that incident and these are the same. The question mark had nothing to do with my assurance of what I was saying.
Juan this situation is seriously messed up. Good job in highlighting this in conjunction with Victor. With the debacle at Boeing, US aviation already has a sinking reputation. A US version of Tenerife will not only kill a lot of people unnecessarily, and will decimate the remaining confidence in the US aviation industry.
was just wondering how the boeing haters were going to blame this on boeing.
October Surprise for election year
Boeing has been chosen by the Deep State to suffer coal raking.
All the airplanes decided on a month to turn BAD. CONSPIRACY!
@@kenbrown2808 Boeing has and continues to earn 90% of the criticism that has been leveled at it. Has that company determined responsibility for that faulty door installation yet , or, are they still shucking and jiving as if no one outside of Boeing knows how serious that one situation is and what it says about its safety and accountability cultures?
@@dpeasehead no. boeing is currently being blamed for every mishap that affects a boeing plane, even when the mishap is the fault of the airline maintenance process, or even defective parts that are not Boeing specific, such as the wheel that came apart. yes, Boeing has been shooting itself in the foot unusually prominently, lately, but that doesn't make everything that goes wrong a Boeing problem.
I work at the same airline Juan, and I keep looking for you in the terminal to shake your hand. The LAS situation is, IMO, how it’s supposed to go. Only tower should be able to clear an aircraft to cross, so everyone in the loop can hear what’s happening on frequency. When a controller has the ability to create a conflict on a piece of pavement they don’t own the control of, the left hand has the ability to not know what the right hand is doing.
Keep these coming. I always learn something. 👍
For you guys who have not subscribed to Juan's Patreon, it is well worth it. There are numerous pilots on UA-cam but they just do not do the depth of analysis like this channel. Juan brings together extensive experience in general aviation, military aviation and currently flies for the world's largest airline as a 777 pilot to Sydney and London from the western US.
Maybe for the JFK incident, they need to adopt what they do at Zürich.
Aircraft land on Rwy 14 and need to cross Rwy 28 to get to the south side terminal. Exiting Rwy 14, they are switched to Ground and taxi towards Rwy 28. Upon holding short of Rwy 28, they are instructed to contact the Tower for crossing Rwy 28. After the Tower tells the aircraft to cross Rwy 28 and it has crossed, the aircraft is then again switched to Ground for the rest of the taxi.
Only the Tower can tell an aircraft to cross an active runway. No multiple frequencies used like at JFK.
My personal thought: The Tower owns any active runway and only they can tell an aircraft to cross it; giving permission to Ground to tell the aircraft is not acceptable.
This is the only option that makes sense
And standard procedure the world over, except the US. While a lot of the comments here suggest that government funding is an issue the US system needs to change. Continuing on this trajectory, the US is going to have a Tenerife; it's just a matter of when not if.
They were both tower controllers. At JFK, during busy periods, 123.9 handles departures and arrivals on runway 4L/22R and 13R/31L, and 119.1 handles arrivals on runway 4R/22L and 13L/31R. In the case of 4R/22L, they also handle the crossing on 4L/22R. When it isn't busy, 123.9 doesn't get used, and 119.1 handles everything. Additionally, when 4L/22R is used for departures, it's possible to have departures off of 31L at KE. The ground controller wasn't involved at all. In this particular incident, the planes landing on 4R were on 119.1 up until they crossed 4L.
@@TighFighter75 Different depending on the airport. At O'Hare, from what I've seen, the ground controller will instruct planes to switch to tower in the event they need to cross a runway, and once they cross, they go back to ground.
Your last comments about the ATC SYSTEM is spot on, ATC and mostly management has degraded, I was an ATC CONTROLLER for 31 years, retired in 2003, it was always a difficult yet rewarding job, all the facilities I worked at had strict requirements for local controller operating the runways and ground controller operating taxiways which crossed runways to immediately coordinate crossing clearances before issued. Obviously that procedure is lacking and and failing the flying public....controllers are just ASSUMING and gambling .....thus the potential for collision incident is going to happen. The FAA is lacking and failing the flying public.
To quote a notable movie: "This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it."
Red October? Remember that one. Excellent movie by the way.
So true ...
@@johanjacobs9240 And, interestingly, Fred Dalton Thompson, the actor playing the Admiral on CVN-65 Enterprise in that movie that made the quote above also plays an air traffic controller in Die Hard 2... "Stack 'em, pack 'em, and rack 'em."😊
@@fhturner3 as well as being an actor in several movies and tv shows (he was on law and order too) he was also a US Senator for 9 years, sat on several government advisory and security committees, and ran for president in 2008.
@@fhturner3 Yup, when I read the comment I immediately heard that voice in my head and thought of Die Hard 2. Then I saw the Red October comment and was like, "D'oh, of course!"
For comparison, American listeners could "dial into" LiveATC and listen to something like Sydney or Melbourne in Australia. Even if you are unfamiliar with our "notorious" accents, you should find that you'll have little trouble understanding ATC, be it tower or app/dep. It's fast, but not clipped, no slang, no abbreviations or references that only locals would get, pure ICAO terminology. (fun fact: until a few years ago, you could even hear an American accent! a well-known controller who left the USA after PATCO fiasco and had a long continued career here in the Melbourne airspace)
Hk ATC too. Clear, easy to follow instructions.
That American guy on Melbourne ATC was good.
As an aviation enthusiast and former GA pilot, I've listened to ATC all over the world. I find MOST non-US ATC easier to understand than JFK - and I'm an American.
Basically most of the world apart from Murica. Except for a few places, Euro ATC is exceptionally good too.
"you'll have little trouble understanding ATC"
But none of these incidents was caused by somebody not understanding ATC. Everybody understood ATC perfectly. The problem is that ATC was instructing people to crash their planes into each other.
You said something about one of the crews "dragging their feet"... The misperception between controllers and pilots about how long it takes to run checklists and act on a clearance is a perennial problem. At my local airport we've had conferences with the class D folks in regard to the differences between jet and prop training traffic. ATC's expectation is sometimes that the pilot/crew will act immediately -- "do what you're told", but the reality of cockpit operations is different and the perception gap can cause issues.
Retired controller, manager. This has been brewing for 2 decades.
Yes, no accountability now, deals don’t matter. NATCA runs the agency now.
@@wturn5354 LMFAO if NATCA ran the agency, you'd think controller salaries would've kept up with inflation. NATCA can't even legally strike.
@@theGGonYT Controller salaries have far exceeded inflation over the last 50-40-30-20 years. I started in 1968 at $2.97 an hour.
@@theGGonYT controllers receive raises yearly to keep up with inflation. Every year when I was working and now in retirement I received the annual COLA raise plus whatever general raise the President approved, plus any “time in grade”. Controllers are very well compensated, if I was still working my yearly salary would be well over 200k as basically a GS15, although controllers have their own pay band designator now. Pretty good pay for generally 5 hours a day on position, many federal holidays, and 26 vacation days and 13 sick days. So, compensation is VERY good.
@@WWPlaysHoldem So true! These morons talking about pay without ANY knowledge. I retired 12 years ago at $84 an hour! If still working I would be around $125 at least. My monthly COLA pay increase last year in retirement was around $800. I had a great career, and was well compensated and knew it!
Saw these on VASAviation and my immediate thought was to wait for your video for more insights. Thank you!
Seeing this video today gives me ominous vibes
I spent 30 years with one of the major airlines and every runway crossing involved both pilots looking out the window to make sure it was safe. That saved us one day in MSP when we were cleared to cross runway 4 while a DC-10 was rolling. I held short and ground reminded me we were cleared to cross; that changed when I pointed out the 10 that was coming our way. Having flown countless times to JFK, DCA, LAS & LAX I am perplexed that no one in these episodes noticed the departing aircraft and stopped.
Indeed, a very good Point! In the JFK incident four Captains had the chance to see that the Swiss A 330 is starting his take-off-roll and none of them catched it.
The school bus/train crossing law needs to be applied to aircraft crossing active runways. Stop look and listen.
Learned that in kindergarten, "look both ways before crossing the street." Surprised it isn't SOP.
@jasonperry7970
@alexhajnal107
That's very good! In Sweden we had the same training. "When crossing the street, look left, then right, then left again". (That last left is because, with automobiles driving on the right side of the road, looking to the right you have your back turned to those cars that are closest to you, coming right at you. So making a last look left minimizes the risks for a huge splat.) cheers / CS
As a subscriber to this wonderful UA-cam channel, I have learned that I could never become a pilot. Various reasons prevent me from being a pilot, among the greatest reasons is because I have NEVER been able to understand what practically anybody is saying over the pilot to control communications, much less, repeat it back to the tower.
yep any type of brain fog which i have would rule me out. especially at some ungodly hour!
ATC CHAT
Bradley,
You are spot on...!
In my book much of ATC communication is virtually unintelligible.....and especially so at Kennedy, where speed of communication over clarity seems the norm. I suspect that clarity of expression and clear diction.......more than likely the essential and most important part of ATC training...........has been let slip.
Additionally, I would suggest that the increasing practice of Aircraft Call Signs being only alphabetic....and lacking any number component.......is not helping matters.
It always seems to me that when an Aircraft Call Sign has a numeric component to it there is additional thinking time and separation in diction available....something lacking where letters only are involved.
Much of this is part of the fashionable fad for Aircraft Call Signs to be akin to personalised Number Plates, (Tags), on vehicles....
Clearly a madness....!
James Hennighan
Yorkshire, England
I don't have this problem as a private pilot. I'm not flying into this kind of airspace. I normally fly out of an uncontrolled airport, but even talking to the local Class D towers are much calmer.
I agree with Gryder on this one: the ATC should run like the cockpit! Nothing but work going on in the tower; no tours, no music, no casual conversations, etc.
Tours and music lol. Okay
As an Airbus captain that flew a lot into LAS and LAX I would always square my turn onto the taxiway I was holding short on so we could see the departure end of the runway we were about to cross.
I hoe all pilots are as wise.
Smart. They should make that a rule.
I always do that, and I only drive a van..!
Everyone should, I would think.
@@hiscifi2986hahaha I was thinking the exact thing
Controllers are VERY friendly when they screw up.
You said it when they
Yeah funny the double standard right?
That is soooooooooooo true!!!
Probably because the problem controller is almost immediately benched, and replaced with the more senior and level headed soup.
So are drunk drivers!😮
Thanks JB for being one of the best advocates for commercial and private aviation, both for safety and fun
Given the staffing levels and the workload placed on the atc team it should no surprise that these kind of things occur. Pilots have strict work/rest requirements. They would never waked to pull a double over the graveyard shift but the folks on the ground responsible for that phase of “flight” are required to do it all the time.
Juan, thanks for banging the drum on this issue.
That JFK situation...imagine if it were raining or foggy and visibility was hindered. SwissAir would've pressed for takeoff and we'd be seeing the story of the disaster in the news.
Indeed. At low visibility the Swiss A 330 would probably have crashed into the Delta 767, both with 200 plus X People on Board.
If they had immediately started their takeoff after turning, as is quite common, they'd be going 100mph+ by the time this started evolving. Coming to a stop... maybe in time? But, yes, low visibility for sure would have been at least 2 or all 5 planes involved as it was the pilot who said no, not the tower - they were unaware from the sound of it.
Unfortunately, that's probably what it will take for them to fix the problem.
Doesn't matter, JFK has an ASDEX
@@josephoberlander they were cleared only for lineup and wait, so they couldn't take off right after turning
A lot of us flying Part 121 have added a new call out in response to this.
In addition to the stabilized approach call, now many of us are scanning all intersecting runways and taxiways, then saying, “All traffic clear of the runway.”
Tenerife is going to happen again if the spacing at these airports isn’t brought under control.
To me the most troubling point is nobody in the DCA tower appears to take ownership of the mistake and/or apologized to the pilots.
Responsibility is no longer in fashion. It’s always someone else’s fault. That needs to change and fast.
@@libby2012apologies are treated as admissions of guilt in court, which is terrible IMO. It is also that way in the press.
Just look at any high profile negative press issue. When somebody apologizes everybody dogpiles them. When somebody just doubles down everybody moves on and the lawsuits stall out.
You get the behavior you reward.
What a mess! Great situational awareness by the Swiss crew!
I remembered the ending of this video. You, unfortunately, called it Juan
Not aircraft related, but similar in actions. In the military working comm during training center ops, I'm passively listening to chatter on the net aka radio watch. One of our engineer units were scheduled for a range usage and were building bunkers. it's a pretty mundane task if you're not actively communicating and you can zone out. I was on the verge when I caught range control clearing 81mm mortars to fire onto the same range. I know what I heard, but couldn't believe it, so I called a check fire and asked range to verify. He did and checked his schedule, and caught his error. He tried to play it off like he gave them different coordinants until they ran the tapes. All he had to do was fess up to the mistake. No thanks was needed because stuff happens and everyone looks out for each other, but he fought it to the end, even with the tapes clearly revealing what he said. Don't cover it up, take the L and learn.
Might some form of lockout-tagout system help prevent that?
Engineering would thank you greatly
Yep. I used to have to go out to the Crow Valley range in the Philippines to recover airdrop loads and we had to check in with the range officer. If it was hot, we'd sit in the tower and watch the show (and it was spectacular). God forbid they effed up and we were down there working when an airstrike was inbound. Granted they were only practice bombs, but still a huge projectile traveling at about 300 kts. Would not have been a good day...And I was lucky enough to have served between all the "wars" (except Grenada) so I can't compare it to what the GWOT guys have been through in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Somalia (stop me when the list gets too long)....
@@alexhajnal107 Yes. With people on the range huge flags should be visible to all. With ranges which are too long for a visual, it is essential for the firing sector to be 100% certain that the range is clear using communication.
@@MrTruckerf I was envisioning something along the lines of lockable gates at the entrances to the firing areas.
What a cluster... unbelievable.
Thanks Juan.
It's amazing that ATC didn't call SwissAir to reject. Fortunately the SwissAir pilot was awake and handled the situation well
The one who noticed was apparently the one pushing the others across, so Swiss wouldn't have been on their frequency. Whether they sit close enough to the other controller to get their attention... you'd hope so, but you'd hope only there was only one controller, so, yeah.
Another great report on this important issue. I'm not flying as much as I used to these days, but was in an almost Kablamo at LAX one morning when a Mexicana flight landed and didn't wait to cross after landing on 25L. I was on a United 757 taking off on 25R to Washington DC. This was back when they had air traffic control on Channel 9 so I heard it all. the 757 pulled up a little early and he hit the throttles to flank speed. I saw the tail of the Mexicana plane pass under clear as can be. He put the nose down and the gear was coming up. We crossed the beach at about 200 feet or so. I could read what was on the shirt of a guy riding his bicycle; I would bet the plane kicked up sand going by. But he got the speed up now and started climbing. Yep, they gave him a phone number to call.
Thank your dear lord that 75 has a lot of power....
@@nattybumpo7156 Yes, and I'm pretty thankful for it too!
Great review Juan! Kudos to both the Frontier pilot and the Swissair pilot for great situational awareness. These reviews and VasAviation’s videos are fantastic for giving commercial airline pilots examples of mistakes made by other pilots and ATC that will help to raise their situational awareness during flight operations.
Long, long ago I was an ATC supervisor. Coordination is absolutely necessary and it is the role of the Tower Supervisor.
FYI there is no more “marking the tapes” as long as it’s within (I believe) 45 days any recording can be looked at easily. It does take FOIA request from the public to get a copy. When you call or ask the controller something like this in LAS the front line manager or controller in charge will fill out a mandatory occurrence report which will be sent to the facility manager, QA specialist etc.
As a long time pilot I think I'll drive, thank you!!!! This is getting ridiculous. Airplanes with parts falling off, quality control issues and now ATC problems...
Yep, though it depends where and how you drive (by a lot). Thanks to some excellent PR work, we don’t count road deaths the same as any other kind. Even e-bikes on the same streets get terrible press for 1/1000th of the same level of danger, or “potential” danger as it turns out usually.
The US measures car deaths in fatalities per hour. Name any other thing that works that way.
I am retired ATC. Listening to this sounds like some training going on. If you hear two controllers on same frequency it is usually because a checked out controlller is plugged in with a trainee ready to take over. I trained more new controllers than I can count. I usually was briefed on the trainee's progress and ability before I plugged in with them. Your intention is to allow them to do as much as they can as long as it is safe. I would guess they were training on several positions in the tower and that could increase cordination problems. 2 of these controllers sound real green. Trainees are slowly given more intense times on positions as they progress. Every controller eventually reaches their limit and that limit must be able to handle the traffic load of that facility. Many new controllers washout within the first year of the job. Many of these new controllers are assigned to facilities they are not ready for out of school because the facility is near their home. I hate to say this but some come in to balance ethnicity, who are very capable but need more time. Time that busy facilities do not have. My training started at the busiest military airport the Air Force had. I was blessed with exceptional instructor. I have said it more than once. ATC is not for anyone. At the major airports it can be very demanding. New controllers do not belong starting in those facilities. You would not put a trainee pilot in 737. Just to much going on. My FAA experience included ORD, at the time nations busiest. Pilots must alwys be aware of the situations that could effect them and not be afraid to ask and refuse, if you can tactfully, to comply. You are the pilot and hold sole responsibility for you aircraft and crew. A controllers mind slips into a picture of how things are going to work. Your always 3 or more steps ahead calculating, timing, scanning and communicating to get, what we called, "the picture", to work. We can get into a groove and assume everyone else is with us. Many trainees are fighting to keep their heads streight. I could go on. This was a taining situation and coordination was lost.
I agree. Voting for transparency. it would be great to see changes in the reporting and investigative processes for ATC incidents.
If there was low visibility bad weather it would have been Tenerife 😮.
Exactly.
It would've been worse and a combo like CanadaAir almost was when it almost landed on a taxiway a while back.
Sadly too true. Very alarming as an interested non-pilot. It strikes me that workload is way too high - JFK controllers are talking so fast I have no idea how the guys in the short sleeved white shirts and gold stripped epaulets comprehend every word.
No, because there’s now the live map system. Also the tcas probably warned Swissair
@@X737_ tcas doesn’t function on the ground.
We have a saying in skydiving which applies to ATC as well: "slow is smooth, smooth is fast". When you're trying to speak at 4000 words a minute, you're just going to end up having to repeat yourself, and that in the end, will take more time. Take the proper time to do it slow and correctly the FIRST time, and THAT'S how you'll save time at the end of the day.
OK but none of these incidents was a result of somebody talking too fast. They happened because controllers gave contradictory instructions, which were perfectly understood and acted on by the pilots.
I have always loved flying and never felt an ounce of anxiety about it. I'll be flying next month, and I have to say, i feel nervous.
Yes, be. nervous.
From mid 1982 till early 2009, I worked either a 28/28, or a 35/35 commuter schedule on every continent except South America, Australia, and Antartica, and given what is becoming quite commonplace with air travel in the united States, I am so glad I do NOT have to be part of this BS anymore. (And, my @ ONE million frequent flyer miles will most likely never get used)
Now, if I want to see the United States, or Canada, I ride AmTrak, or the Canadian equivalent.
Still more likely to die in a cat accident driving to the airport.
@@JoshuaTootell You sure about that? How many people are dying in cat accidents each year?
Sounds like the same problem that's been creeping into law enforcement for ages. As long as they get to self-investigate (and find they've done nothing wrong) nothing ever gets fixed.
Here it's getting investigated by the Swiss "NTSB". So more likely to produce something of value.
Thanks much for your videos friend! As always, very informative and well done! I usually don't leave comments, but this time I just need to put my two cents in. I have been a corporate pilot now for close to 40 years...flying mostly Pt 91, but have several years flying 135. In any case, over the years I have noticed the slow and methodical degradation of "Airline" safety. Thankfully, I only have to travel on an airliner twice a year to attend Flight Safety Recurrent every six months so my normal routine for the past several years is catch an Oakland to Wichita flight with a stop over in Las Vegas. Without a doubt this is the most nerve wracking part of my year...that airline flight to and from ICT on Southwest! There are several reasons for my concern...the first being exactly what has been highlighted in this video...the mistakes being made by ATC. Of course, I don't think this situation is entirely the fault of the individual ATC controllers themselves because there are many factors that are making their jobs almost entirely unsustainable at this point. I recently watched a documentary that pointed out most of these professionals are working 6 day weeks and 10 hours per day?! I have not verified the truth of this, but if true...no wonder these folks are making mistakes...and if left unchecked...will end up potentially killing hundreds of people in one accident!
There are other issues as well...like the increased volume of air traffic, the outdated infrastructure of the ATC system itself and yes, I must mention this incredibly stupid DEI hiring agenda being force fed to many industries including ATC and the Airlines!
Finally, from an operational standpoint specific to privately operated, high performance aircraft and yet something that affects all areas of Professional Aviation was this move several years ago to a GPS Navigation Based System to handle the flow of air traffic. I think the system over all is very reliable and accurate and it has allowed more aircraft to use the airspace system due to this accuracy. However, I am concerned that the complexity of this system and the severe lack of "Standardization" amongst the different NAV equipment manufacturers is also putting opening up this type of travel to hazardous consequences if continued in it's current state. The entire system is much more difficult to use due to the fact it is much more complex and technical than the old Ground Based Radio System. From the highly complex RNAV Departure and Arrival Procedures (effectively have to be flown via the onboard FMS system) to the crazy RNAV Approach procedures and the different ways each FMS manufacturer has chosen its equipment to utilize the GPS RNAV System is really quite ridiculous!
A literal book could be written on the issues facing "modern" air travel in the USA, but suffices to say, if something doesn't change in several areas, "we," the traveling public are basically playing Russian Roulette each time we get into a corporate aircraft or airliner. I for one made the decision many years ago that when I am done flying for a living I will at that point become what I call a "John Madden Type" traveler...
Juan, thank you for sounding a very apt alarm on this.
As someone outside the airline industry, but with an interest in it, I’m concerned that corporate history is being ignored or forgotten, and it’s inevitable that the disasters of the past are going to be repeated. Too much focus on speed and numbers, not enough focus on safety. Stay safe.
Agreed. I'm an engineer that has done a lot of aviation design, runways, airport master plans. The US is needing more runways, first off (ATL went to 5 fifteen years ago, and has plans for a 6th runway), ORD did good things by mostly getting rid of intersecting runways. But I think ATC is stretched. JFK ground, for example, is fast, fast talk. We're in a hurry to get aircraft to cross active runways, we're in a hurry to clear for takeoff, too much traffic in the system.
@@davidfrench5407 with runways either side of central terminal/ramp areas, as shown in Juan’s film, why are they all using just one side of the airport for takeoffs and landings? The safest option is to have takeoff to the south of the ramp (for example) and landings to the north, then conflict is hugely reduced. It’s not rocket science.
Two runways at London Heathrow do exactly that, and keep runway incursions to an absolute minimum. Simple solutions to simple issues.
Thanks for another excellent video! Just one nitpick: Swissair is history, it went bankrupt in 2002 - the current Swiss flag carrier is actually called Swiss (same as their callsign, or "Swiss International Air Lines" if you want the full name) and is a subsidiary of Lufthansa.
Our SOPs before crossing any runway is " clear left, clear right" well before we cross any runway.
Good Day Juan and All. As a lay person but with many hours of flight training as a student, I find this INSANE! For a Pilot such as yourself, I can barely imagine what this does to your mind. Each day, the "Holes" in the "Swiss Cheese" grow in number. I understand to the degree that I can, exactly how busy and congested the airways and also the ground traffic situation is. It's seriously time for a Major REGROUP of communications between ATC & Ground Control, or your thought of a Tragedy Will Occur. Safe Flying to You and Best Regards. Thank You.
'Each day, the "Holes" in the "Swiss Cheese" grow in number.'
That's because the FAA is the mouse, quietly munching on the cheese...
@@6yjjk AND, Historically, we know where this will ultimately lead...
Very Sadly
Juan, good morning. I just want to say you have produced another video. I would say outstanding easy for us to comprehend exactly what’s going on at our busiest airports. It is absolutely frightening as to what is about to happen here in the good old US of A. With the other channels out there, recording ground control, and tower control I believe most of the public wouldn’t even realize these events are happening and compounding.
Thank you for your service and thank you for your no nonsense videos .
I am a licensed pilot and a licensed air traffic controller. I also work at CAE as a right seat support for Citation X pilots. I am scared to death about the future of USA’s aviation safety. The entire system of training from the ground up is being filled by kids with more zits than experience and they are just passing on the vomit they were fed with no understanding. The pool of experience and decision making skills has given way to swallow this, vomit out that, here’s your rating and license. In air traffic control and flight schools. Yes, disaster is on its way.
Hi, Dave! I, too am a pilot (ASEL Commercial/Instrument, Mountain, Glass Cockpit, Complex), trained in the vicinity of the SFO class Bravo. Jason Miller of "The finer Points" youtube channel is in my logbook as instructor. I, too, am petrified at the lack of relevant experience that ATC has in or around aircraft. I'm not sure how I feel about the age restriction for controller hire, as it is thrusting young people who can't even afford a teaser flight in a 152 into controlling a sky full of aircraft. I've also known folks who have attempted the transition from 20-yr-old CFI to 121 and 135 operations. Both of these paths are fraught with danger due to no one having any industry wisdom anymore, but only the rote knowledge they've just absorbed from their own CFI's or ATC training staff. Add to that the fact that in aviation Cockiness is the inverse square of Age as Age has wisdom on its side due to experiencing just how easily one can get oneself killed for the slightest lapse of duty or attention. Let's all try to remember the old quote:
“Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.” Captain A. G. Lamplugh,
Don’t forget the DEI hires the current administration is pushing
It will affect more than just aviation. The entire American infrastructure will soon crumble.
London Heathrow has a follow-me traffic light sort of arrangement on the ground; Juan, are you familiar? Would love to hear a cockpit perspective.
The Swiss fellow probably didnt want to leave right away but figured he would be safer in the air than in NYC. Which I can agree with.
Scary stuff. Thanks for the in-depth coverage Juan
Thank you Juan for the nice review of the recent issues with the FAA ATC. Very concerning that the incidents are on the rise.
They were warned. Now look at what happened.
I don't understand the practice in the US of simultaneous clearences for the same runway. Everywhere else in the world (with certain exeptions in some banana countries) I can expect the runway in front of me to be clear the moment I get my T/O or LDG clearence. Hey, what do we have the clearances for? Is it just a coincidence that clearence contains the word CLEAR?
Americans will defend this practice to the death, which is ironic.
@@loopbackish Why would they defend the practice if it leads to incidents tho?
@Alex_Coaster_Adventurer they say it improves efficiency because they can get the clearance "out of the way" and the pilot can land at discretion. Unfortunately this doesn't explain how it is supposed to work in low visibility when you can only see 200m down the runway. The rest of the world uses "continue approach, expect late clearance" or if they really want the pilot to make the decision "land at discretion"
@elmangado Does the US now qualify as a banana country?
I'm working on my PPL right now and hoping to get into an aviation career. I've been watching a lot of crash reports as a learning tool, and recently started watching these ATC blunders that seem to be happening way more often than what they used to (from what I can tell), and it's certainly unsettling to see these ATC screw ups. What you mentioned at the end of the video seems like a running theme, once a pilot makes a mistake the FAA is on them like no other, when ATC makes these mistakes we never seem to hear anything about it afterwards which increases the concern. Maybe if ATC mistakes were handled with the vigor that pilot mishaps are then ATC would slow down and think twice before giving instructions like this.
ATC = MLB Umpires
I was a failed ATC candidate in Canada with what was then Transport Canada. First rule we learned in Airport ops was the departure arrival controller owned access to his runway. There was no crossing an live runway if it was cleared for a departure or if there was an AC short final. These guys at JFK are playing fast and loose
This is particularly scary after the recent collision in Japan, of flight 516. ,
Honestly, the ONLY thing that surprised me about that incident was that it didn't happen in the US. It will.
That one still gives me nightmares given i fly to Japan with some regularity.
Thanks!
Thanks User!
There’s a saying in the software development industry: “If you want to go fast, go slowly.”
I was taught (about anything) if you don't have time to do it right the first time, how do you think you'll find twice the time to redo it.
'slow is smooth and smooth is fast'.
As an outsider looking in I find it amazing that any 1 (or worse 2) ground controllers can keep a mental picture of the situation. Are they any automated displays of the aircraft, ground route and status ? For instance: lined up & cleared for takeoff = green arrow with flight number. Holding short = red arrow, etc. This may already exist and l may be oversimplifying but as a retired engineer who designed aircraft engine control software it is clear something has to change.
Hey Juan, Mike here in Texas. I'm not a pilot, but have been an aviation buff almost all of my life. I appreciate your insight and commentary on events like these. Keep up the good work, and God bless!
As I see it, it's that the airports are practically in the position of serfs to the airlines and don't stand up for themselves and say "no more flights". Just keep cramming them in closer and closer to each other, hoping that the overworked ( and under-staffed) controllers never make a single mistake. Because everyone in management on both sides wants more flights and more profits.
What is happening with ATC in the US right now? Seeing this sort of thing every other week right now. Only a matter of time before there's a disaster
The FAA didn’t hire enough + retirements + hired DEI people that washed out of training so they don’t have enough people in the pipeline to now having overworked Controllers.
@@EmpReb”DEI people” lol
It's not what is happening, it's what happened and goes all the way back to PATCO, Reagan, the ATC academy in OKC, and above all congress and the FAA
@@EmpReb There seems to be an inordinate number of you bigots in these comment threads. Are there really that many horrible people posing as pilots?
@@EmpReb. BS, and don’t bother with any “I’m not being racist” disclaimer. The FAA is constantly hiring, and their situation is no different than every other skilled position across the USA: more jobs than people willing to take the job at the given pay level.
Juan thank you for your insightful interpretation of all the aviation content on your channel. I always enjoy your videos and best practices you preach.
The controller issue is much deeper than these incidents are eluding to. It's not just a staffing crisis. It's a retirement wave that hasn't even hit yet. 90% or controller hired in the 2000s will be retiring in the next 4-7years. In the past controllers would stay until forced out for age but now almost everyone is leaving ASAP.
The agency is so poorly managed by people that shouldn't have ever been controllers in the first place. They barely make it then run to find other work in the agency. The amount of fluff/fraud/waste and an abuse of the tax dollar is sickening.
Incidents like this I hate to admit will continue as controllers are not afforded rest periods grater than 1 day off. 4 days a month off. I'm sure you're afforded a few more than that a week flying. (I was in the regionals).
We generally need double the number of controllers currently staffed to effectively manage the amount of workload and provide the service expected.
As a European I am also astonished that you can clear several aircraft to use the same runway at the same time. That definitely does not instate any sort of control or barrier around those runways
This is so informative! Great job, fantastic reporting!🌻🌼🐝 Keep it up 🙌
Thank you for having the courage to shine the light on this, before the inevitable.
That woman yelling STOP STOP STOP is nightmare fuel
She really saved the day!
Yes! That was really scary!
Why? At least someone was saying something.
@@atcdude067 NOT proper protocol...but good thing she yelled it.
@@ValerieGriner
What is the proper protocol for impending disaster..?
A work colleague arrived from Ft. Lauderdale yesterday afternoon to BWI Baltimore and said he was delayed because his flight did a go around. He said the captain explained it later on and told passengers there was a plane on the runway. 4/22/24 late afternoon.
I watched vas aviation's videos and started to get worried something is going wrong
Juan called it.
At USN/USMC airfields we remained on TWR until clear of all active runways. GND could only clear us to cross a closed or off-duty runway.