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Console sales have a lot to do with why God of War sales are so high, 22.5million ps5s 15million Godofwar sales then compare xbox 7 million consoles if 1/3rd songs market is taken by xbox then ps5 vs xbox is closer to 50% each then God of War would have only 10million sales which isn't as good as it first looks on paper. So if xbox was at 15million consoles their 10million high selling game would be 20 million copies sold if all math is equal(cant really sell more copies than xboxes). But xbox has only 7 million consoles so they could likely only get 5million copies a game sold & if you double then its equal to 10mil/god of war if Sony had 7mil less consoles so mathwise 10mil is about the best any game can reach with current market share of both console split. So basically a 15 mil copy game on ps5 is the same as a 5mil copy sold on xbox.
The worst nightmare is a subscription only console that only let's you play games while subscription is active, the console is free but you have to be subscribed & is digital only but you always have gamepass. The dream is a xbox 1440p laptop duel boots in either xbox or windows os... Handheld are interesting but I'm not sure if my ideal of a builtin handleheld which becomes portable by having all the needed specs as the console but has extra hardware in the box that boosts the handhelds performance, example you can have the best cpu/gpu in the handheld just down clocked while not in placed in the box where it can get the proper cooling/other needed stuff to run at max performance.
I always hear people saying that 4k is enough and you can't tell the difference but I disagree. I have a 65" 4k tv and sit about 6 feet away and notice the stair stepping on diagonal lines.
@@robertlawrence9000yeah I'm on 55 in sitting about 3 and 1/2 maybe 4 ft away.. fortunately it's an LG OLED, and they have an actual bespoke 1440p mode.. or at least something that is close to the next best thing outside of native... I made a rule with myself Don't go over 60, don't go over 1440 because you're just not going to be able to go back.. One thing that just absolutely drives me insane is going from clear to less clear clear to less clear etc.. it's one of the tragedies of the best practice that epic was pushing with the TAA, to have it be variable when you're moving throughout the game world and not focusing on anything according to them... And then sharpen up when you stop lol.. which is funny how similar it looks to bad LOD scaling.. which is funny cuz it usually comes packaged with bad LOD scaling... When I'm comfortable I can push both, then I will.. and enjoy it.. but yeah lol you can see it for sure especially at 65... Especially with aliasing, that's why I'm such a fan of DLSS, it really does just nail anti-aliasing better than anything else...* Especially the way modern developers often render transparencies and sprites and particle effects... Switching from TAA to DLSS, when you're talking about things happening in motion quickly.. it's so nice it's like getting a time machine back to win this wasn't really that big of an issue.. not that great of a time machine and your glasses still have Vaseline on them.. but it's still easily the best solution for the modern rendering techniques in that regard. The one downside I've seen so far is it has a tendency to oversharpen under baked LOD scale.. so if you're trying to get fancy like the cyberpunk implementation does... It actually looks blurrier until the LOD sharpens and and comes into play.. which unfortunately is after the post-processing for some reason.. it's an easy enough fix, but it has some serious side effects that wouldn't be a problem for somebody that knew what they were doing in the adjustment... But that leads into another annoying thing... Unfortunately it comes with so many addendums, half the time you have to fix the mip bias your own self in the driver... You always have to use a sharpening filter of some kind, ironically I love to use AMDs CAS, cuz it's the best.. but that means I also have to use reshade to get that to work.. And the real kicker is that dlaa should just solve most of these issues lol... If only Nvidia would have not made it their doctrine to label the technology within four bespoke settings that wildly vary between them.. especially when you can actually have in betweens lol... But to do so you have to use a third party injector.. because.. I guess we can't have the nicest of things or just the regular nice things or just you know medium things.. and if you do then at the very least you going to have to bleed a little to earn the gifts that Jensen bestows upon you lol.
I miss the old IGN days before podcasts were common. Daemon on game scoop, TRL podcast just being crazy low effort anarchy, and colin and Greg on the Playstation podcast. That was the golden era of IGN to me.
I remember opening IGN every day to look for news from the big three consoles of the early 2000s. Such a nice time. I will be honest, I really do prefer the current status cuo of youtube reviews. Any time any youtuber does a shady review like the actman did, there are tons of youtubers ready to jump on them with proof.
I actually just discovered the other day that Daemon is still doing Game Scoop and it's still pretty great but he's the exception...you couldn't pay me to watch Beyond or any of their other terrible podcasts. Amazing how far they've fallen when they brought in DEI hires rather than likable and talented people.
Oh thank god. Came here from Sacred Symbols community. I'm a Nuclear Physicist and I've been arguing for awhile that streaming can't replace hardware. Also want to point out the speed of light in a fibre is actually SLOWER than the speed of light in a vacuum same for air and wireless signals. First time I've heard an industry commentator make this point. Made my day. Its fine if you are next to the data centres in a city centre or next to a university (they tend to be located innclose proximity to universities fir whatever reason at least herr in the uk) but if you love in a rural area the latency wuickly becomes an issue.
Thank you! Ex Electrical Engineer turned Network Engineer with experience in both Telecommunications and Enterprise Networks here. This whole conversation about everything going to cloud is driving me crazy. Everybody is just saying it with no knowledge on the physics of it. I still see latency on my PlayStation Portal with my PS5 physically wired and a very robust wifi6e home network.
@MrCarpediem6 stating it will probably be viable if you live in a major city, right next to data centres and your isp exchange is close enough to both you and the data centres. But live in the countryside or smaller cities and towns and chances are you will likely find it doesn't work or is pretty inconsistent. Hardware is the way to go.
You don't need to be in a rural area for it to have the same issue in the US. Most games are hosted in maybe 3 locations around the country if you are lucky, sometimes just 1 in Chicago or Dallas. The US is pretty damn large if you haven't noticed, that is just too far for the light to travel to have a good experience.
All above being the case how comes GeForce now best case can be as low as 40ms from input to on screen reaction? Thats lower than almost any native console hardware atm
I totally agree with Colin. India and Brazil should be top priority for game Streaming but the focus is the US and Europe, where people can have access to consoles at a reasonable price.
Impossible. Two reasons: internet and cost. Explanation: Even in the middle of Europe or US internet is not good enough for streaming games. You think it's good enough in India and Brasil? Cost of buying games or subscriptions is too much for poor countries. Most people either buy physical games from second hands for cheap or play in "internet cafes" or simply pirate games.
India and Brazil has a grip of people but few that have the disposable income to buy $70 games. Not to mention internet access is laughably archaic in these countries. Ferrari isn't about to start opening dealerships in Africa.
@@user-fe2oh8oj2u as it turns out, the 4g infrastructure in Brazil is pretty good. Also, prepaid plans are really cheap. You pay something like $1 for 24hrs of unlimited data for Netflix or UA-cam.
I remember Gaben taking a swipe at game streaming 10 plus years ago. I think he basically said that if you started with streaming you'd eventually move to local hardware because it solves the networking issues. I also have to wonder if streaming is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. There's no problem with local boxes 🤷♀️
This episode's major point is all that entertainment (games, music, tv, movies, etc) is fighting for a limited resource.....people's free time. The cheap money era is over and companies need to turn a profit on these investments in a shorter time frame.
well making corporation scale product works for SAP, Oracle and others but rarely for entertainment which needs that grip, local touch that lukewarm international mass product is near impossible to get. Hollywood movies arguably have failed for same reason, trying to reach for skys ended up making many movies so smoothened those say nothing to nobody.
I've been listening to sacred symbols for a while, and I've heard colin mention this channel all the time. But man, this is one of the best podcast episodes I've listened to in a long time.
What a stellar conversation to eavesdrop on. I don't know how I've never heard of Colin before but I'm subscribing to his podcast immediately. Best MLID of 2024 so far.
This was a great podcast. The underlying issue of Xbox’s upcoming announcement is clearly the economics of gamepass and the Xbox ecosystem. There is a lot of low quality discussion about the issue that strays from this but this podcast provided some much needed relevant analysis.
Completely agree with Colin on the unrealistic expectations some gamers have for pricing. People really don’t get how much more effort and cost goes into making a game today
Honestly just charge $80 next gen. There will be growing pains, and the first game to do it will suffer saleswise but this is a bandage that needs to be pulled out.
unless a game is really really good to me like the next civilization game ill never pay more than $30 for it i dont care about the economic reality. spend less on making your games. almost always buy exspensive games on sale a year or 2 later.
DRM should have made games cheaper, but instead we got less game for a higher price with nothing physical or actual ownership of purchased product. in other words paying more for less.
He is right on how the masses have no clue (and honestly don't wanna clue) as to how expensive this stuff is to make. At the same time, gamers are a bunch of cheap fickle coonts. There is an upper limit to how much they will pay for, not only a game, but for hardware or put into this overall. Prices now for hardware have had a decent chunk jump to console because they aren't about the new age price of GPUs. Games going up, even I feel many will find other hobbies (just to realize the upper end of PC gaming is the entry point for many hobbies that are worth it 😂)
I heard him talking early on. he definitely makes a valid point. I don't like watching people play early release games that I cannot get because of the simple fact I can't play along with them and what I'm going to spoil the whole game by watching him play it. I'd rather go into a game blind then be spoiled. it's no fun so I applaud you for that
I think his argument for curated content for Sony has some merit, but it would absolutely be an opportunity cost Steam allows some really "low quality" games like Vampire Survivors and every now and then they just blow up and millions of people play these "low quality" games If you only do curated games then you will be the last to get these gems and i don't think that is worth it (you already pay for the infrastructure either way)
Vampire Survivors made me use a Steam account. I'm mostly a AAA Sony Pony but after Hades introduced me to Roguelites, I'd heard so much hype for it at such low cost that I had to try it. They weren't wrong either. That game was like heroin.
The first 12:35 of this video is important today more than it ever has been. So many UA-cam channels are absolute shills these days for that sponsored product review dollar. ETA prime is a good example. Even the guys over ar Digital foundry currate their graphical anaylsis videos as to not try and step on game dev toes while collectively circle jerking Nvidia on ray tracing and DLSS gimmicks and they dont even speak their minds anymore. The content integrity is slipping big time and everyone is shilling out for that corproate dollar; it's getting harder to trust "reviews"
Every reviewer is biased one way or another. Be it monetarily or ideologically. (Buildzoid with his overclocking fetish comes to mind, or LTT which are corporate shills)
I've only ever heard of Colin on the (unnecessarily political) SideScrollers podcast, so I won't be watching this weeks episode after Stuttering Craig's interview. But I'm glad you found this channel!
Im one of the old Xbox gamers that grew up with OG Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, and then as an Adult switched to PC because Xbox and PlayStation started putting their games on Steam and I like the freedom of the PC platform.
1:00:00 yup this right there, 10 years ago, some friends of mine would have a bunch of $50 physical games, nowadays they wait for the 80% off sale if you REALLY need that specific game, the free games on Epic Store and that gamepass trial month just to finish a game they wanted for basically free I remember having a 3 months game pass subscription and I never used it, I was busy with another game. You’d have to be a machine to go through all the monthly games…I hate feeling rushed in a game, and don’t forget that 200+ games in my Steam library I still have to go through…it’s over saturated
it is logical.... if you know it will soon be on sale 1) you cant have any resale value 2) you dont much own that game as digital 3) no bragging rights or possibility to easily borrow game to friend 4) (not related to price) launch day rush of walkthroughs everywhere + not related to game hype will ruin experience even without spoilers.
My Grandma turned 100 years old in December. Far as I know she has seen a video game maybe at a family Xmas party. She to this day will have the TV playing any TV game show. She is doing okay for the age, but yes she is old.
I love the complete focus on console gaming this episode. So many things I haven't paid attention to or didn't think anything of brought to my attention here.
As we like to say in the internet networking business, "the speed of light is unbeaten." Even getting rid of all the copper in the ground and the walls won't make game streaming have imperceptible latency. EDIT: LOL, I wrote this comment a few minutes before Tom said it! Nice. I'm glad he got there.
Colin is DEFINITELY NOT a fanboy and any reasonable minded individual would know this. Heck, SONY PR has blacklisted him for years now because of the s**t he gives them. Great colab video; subscribed just the other day when Colin said he would be on here.
@@jarde1989I wouldn’t call him a fanboy. He’s dedicated to the ecosystem, but I feel like to be a fanboy you have to defend a company when they do bad things. Colin criticizes PlayStation more than almost anyone in games media.
The very definition of fanboy is a fan who is so fervently devoted they become irrational. There is no such thing as a rational fanboy. He’s not a fanboy
Listen to me, ship all Xbox's with Winodws on and integrate special "Xbox Series Console" graphical settings(optional) on all PC games. For a gamer who isn't otherwise interested in tech, this would make them feel like they are playing on a console.
Agreed. Imagine if you picked up a Series X for $350 this past holiday, and you were able to put windows on it. Really great deal for the hardware you’d be getting.
@@VenomSnakeMGS as amazing as this would be they just will never do it.. at least not in the capacity described here. Perhaps MS will release an Xbox with a Windows type of OS but it will be artificially locked down as to not cannibalize the PC market. If I were MS I wouldn't let you install windows either.
34:31 That depends mostly on the budget. A cheap indie game doesn't need to get a large customer base to be successful. Getting potential buyers of a game to learn of its existence, however, definitely is a problem with that much volume. It's really up to the developer to figure out where the target audience hangs out, and promote the game in those locations.
I personally noticed a large difference going from 60 to 100 fps (perhaps the motion clarity too?) But then Going to 144 wasn't so big of a jump. Going from 60 to 100 is like 30 to 60 for me, I just cant agree that 60 is ok anymore
Microsoft lost money on making consoles , now what they want to do is just buy game publisher and studios that make games, so MS can now sell games to play on sony PS5 , MS will make way more money , no need for Xbox to exist.
The reason why Sony / Nintendo would never allow GamePass (and collect their 30%) is because it devalues games and trains consumers not to pay for them. It is net deflationary when game prices are already not catching up with inflation.
Palworld currently is disproving his opinion on Harry Potter and the others. People want a good game without micro transactions. And it's killing it in the price department.
Not every business model works for every game, it's just like diets... Not every diet works for every human. So I have to disagree with your statement. Micro transactions are not always bad, it's just the way they are implemented that is bad in some games.
@@user-hq6kn5vp2q by your own argument you are wrong. Like a diet for the vast majority of people a normal caloric deficit but well rounded and high protein works. Just like games the vast majority don't want money transaction garbage with is the vast majority of micro transaction games. So get out of here with that crap. People want good games without micro transactions. 2023 and already in 2024 are proving it.
Colin’s argument wasn’t that gamers don’t want complete games. He said developers won’t take the hint, because most of them are currently developing live service games right now. Regardless of what we want, most developers and publishers seem to think they know better. Maybe they’ll pivot in 3 or so years, but for right now, I think they’re locked into live service, regardless of the statement we make with our wallets.
Palworld is not even that good of a game. I have about 50h played and will play it again from the start with some mods that fixes a bunch of annoyances. The only reason it is as popular as it is, is because of "it is pokemon with guns".
2009-to-2011 were dark times for the PC platform. Valve and Nvidia were the true innovators that kept PC gaming alive. Intel and AMD just tagged along.
i love pc gaming, i switched from console since 2007. its expensive i know but i love aiming with the mouse so much better, and you also could use a controller no problem. i like building pc' s
Full disclosure: this is totally anecdotal, but the smaller group of friends I have that are on Gamepass are bored and burnt out. They also frequently skip playing games online with the group because they either don’t have it, or are prioritizing single player games they they got for “free”
Holy shit this was a great podcast. I had to rewind quite a few times. My mind was set on things, but to hear another POV is such a breath of fresh air.
Years ago, my God Father told me that same thing (About the problem of speed of light and distances of cache/ram/storage/cpu/gpu all that.) Its really ironic we shrunk the computer so much, that distances of components have become an issue. Totally mind-blowing, physics are limiting our technology.
Einstein tells us we're limited to _c_ in the *perfectly idealized case.* Realistically, if you're on FTTH, you're on light most of the way (and to be clear, that's light through glass, which is slower then light through a vacuum), but you're still likely converting to electrical signals which are processed for routing. That's going to take time, and that's latency. I believe there is some work being done on packet-switching optically, which will help, but beyond that we're at the best physics can give us. The only way to move beyond that would be something like quantum entanglement, which some theories says we can't use for transmitting information. What goes around comes around. I remember when we had computer stores with software selling whatever shovel-ware in the days of the Commodores, Apple IIe, etc.
I am on 28inch 4k and I often run games at higher than native specifically to try and help avoid jaggies and pixelation(not that it helps very much) point is.. it is ridiculous to say you can't tell the difference in resolutions or that a higher resolution is not beneficial. I guarantee I could see a huge difference in 4k and 8k on my 28inch monitor. Perhaps not 4x more clarity but I will see the difference and benefit 100%
@@AmateurHourProduWhat stake do you have in disagreeing? Do you not have good eye sight? 🤷 Do you only have 1080p? Also, "Sure" adds no value to the discussion.
@@christophermullins7163you physically cannot see a difference in that small of a screen between 4 and 8k you are full of crap, it doesn't matter how "good" your eyes are it is a physical limitation, but if you like lightning money on fire then who REALLY provides nothing to the convo? You.
Long before cloud gaming was even a word, I thought it would be great to buy a subscription and play games remotely. A catalogue of games running on powerful servers sounded great. It would mean access to high quality without the expense of console/graphics card and individual games. Comes in Stadia and they require you to pay for each game alongside the subscription cost and offer less graphical power than upcoming consoles (PS5 generation). I doubt casual gamers would worry about input lag, it just seems like cloud gaming is simply a terrible offer right now.
VGA CRT at 60Hz: better motion than both options you mentioned. I would love a 4K CRT but the best monitor (Sony FW900) only can reach 2304x1440 80Hz. Moar hz is the same bubble as more cores, i want strobbing.
The next-gen Xbox could beat the PlayStation if it's open to PC games and game mods. The benefits of a streamlined set of hardware specs and the freedom of PC gaming. Basically the console version of the Steam Deck.
Regarding the Oppenheimer analogy, it is evident from the real sales of games that those who are buying at full price in the most premier games will do so within the first quarter of launch after which almost every game starts taking price cuts. By next steam winter/sumer sale you would see a decent discount. In theater movies are still a limited run experience. Theres no way to watch it after the first quarter or so it hits the screen. Plus the gaming market has SO MANY GAMEs to pick from. Not to mention, theaters do struggle to get seats filled. The point is, if movies could run for years, you bet you ass they would be making pennies per seat by the end. Now if GTA was $100 or $200 or $300, some would still be ok with buying it. You'd just see a proportional increase in piracy and people holding on for price drops. The market will decide whats fair and if they fk around they will find out, when people will just play something else. Some of the cheapest games right now are played the most.
TBF digital platforms are dirt cheap to keep it available (infrastructure wise, not accounting any content license agreements eg music) vs physical seats and square meters in some mall/downtown. Microsoft and couple other giants were just in news they "saved" billions just by extending their infrastructure lifetime to 6 years (ie not throwing to bin and getting hundreds of new servers just coz accounting has marking need to get rid of them after 4 or 5 years). Granted those bilions were only couple percent of their profits and revenues to put in perspective.
The reason why the vita failed. Was its proprietary memory cards that where half the cost of the device. After purchasing the device, a game, and then the memory. you could buy a console or Nintendo hand held and four games. They got greedy. They became to paranoid of people pirating games. Like on the OG Vita. Vita wasn't timed bad. It Priced badly. Sony would have killed the hand held market if they didn't get greedy.
01:30:32 Not a chance. It's physiologically impossible unless you're so close that you can't see the entire screen. The human eye has a resolution limit, and it's already exceeded by 4K screens at a proper viewing distance (which at a minimum means you don't need to move your eyes to see the entire screen).
The human eye doesn't see in pixels or framerate, and I could tell the difference between 720p and 1080p 20 years ago despite the nonsense flung online. The human eye is complicated, and not digital. It's a complex answer to a complex organ.
@@MooresLawIsDead The human eye is a physical object that uses optics to create images. Optics are very well understood. A normal human eye has a resolution of about one arcminute. It doesn't go far enough below that in exceptional individuals to make a difference. You can easily calculate the angular size of a pixel at a given distance, and can therefore definitely show whether or not a human can see more detail, or if they're on the edge of maybe seeing more or maybe not. I've done the math. I'm completely certain of my conclusions. The fact that your response involves telling the difference between 1280x720 and 1920x1080 - something nobody says you can't do - is telling.
I enjoy Collin's bias. It's vieled and I enjoy him thinking it isn't. Luckliy I like Sony more so I don't mind it but the news regarding sony going forward is kinda dire.
In regards to the guests question on why streaming game services cant download a cache of data to assist on latency issues: This is already done on mobile gaming and even on the Apple TV, this is not actually game streaming, but is asset streaming, it requires the local device to still do all the heavy lifting.
I went full circle on the whole PC gaming thing. Sold Xbox Series X and PS5 for a Steam Deck. For a month I was on cloud nine. Then it slowly started to creep in. It became a chore to find the right settings to get a game to be playable. Figured it was the specs, so I got a ROG Ally. Again, for a month I was thinking “Wow, this is great!” And between Windows installing the wrong AMD driver, to Windows updates that would fail, to ASUS sending out things that would conflict with Windows, right back to “how do I find the right configuration for this game to be playable” I just didn’t want to deal with it. I’m back on Consoles, PS5 in the living room. Next month added a 4TB SSD to it, will order a new Xbox Series X and get the 2TB expansion card on that. I’ll play on my phone via Backbone. I don’t have it in me to play these games to just play a game. I tried.
There are actually AI NPC mods for Skyrim that uses ChatGPT and it works the way you said but the issue is you need to make a paid monthly ChatGPT account to get the mod to work.
Biggest question of the show: how does Phil Spencer still have a job? He's been presiding over the slow death of the Xbox for a decade now. A smart exec could've turned things around in that time after the Xbox One/Dom Mattrick fiasco. Especially considering the resources MSFT have at their disposal... Instead of a turn around, seems like Gane Pass is the rope that will hang the Xbox hardware division.
Valve is pushing linux gaming with steam deck and proton for 2 main reasons. 1. It gives them full control in specing theirs hardware (vr, handheld and etc) due to linux open source nature. 2. Create an open source alternative to Microsoft in PC market. On the other hand, Microsoft wants to spread windows as their main platform and then sell game pass, office 365 and other products. Valve basically goes against Microsoft.
@Spencerwalker21 Sony and Nintendo are superior to Microsoft in the gaming industry. Plus, they're outside of the PC market, so it's essentially just a fight between gaming departments. Otherwise, Valve competes not only with Xbox, but also with Windows, which, in fact, is the basis of other Microsoft products. Windows' market share has been declining in recent years due to the popularity of MacOS, so for them a new alternative in the PC market is not good. Of course, the Linux desktop isn't big enough to be a problem at the moment. But it's definitely growing faster because of the steam deck and the proton. That's how I see it. Maybe you're right and they're just waiting for a larger market share, but I highly doubt it.
@@thexndr5773 you might be right but I think Xbox is just cooked they're maybe not next gen but after that they're out of the console game and need 60 million plus game pass subscribers and don't think valve is ever going to crack 1% of the PC space.
@@thexndr5773 I liked the idea presented during the podcast that Microsoft should launch a 400$ box with an Xbox mode but ship it with Windows by default and try to hit that it's a cheap PC that just happens to have console games and game pass. My out there idea was too partially copy Nintendo by making a Xbox handheld basically a next gen Xbox series s with the power of the series x in a couple years starting at 349$ and sell a standalone dock that while docked the handheld has the power of the PS5 pro or PS6 whatever. And they could sell the handheld and dock bundle for 600$ and it comes with game pass for free for 2 years.
Streaming service would be fine for some kinds of games, but what games are currently popular and profitable? The idea of local cache-ing of data doesn't relieve the cheap low power device of the complex 3D calculations responding in real time. Many strategy games just don't need high FPS or low latency because you aren't controlling units in real time, but "giving orders they attempt to follow", but these kind of thoughtful decision games are a small slice of the market. Basically the kind of gaming most enthusiasts enjoy is high intensity for gaming duration so local compute resources simply makes sense. Centralised resources help when you benefit from sharing a high capacity system that is not highly interactive.
Why does Microsoft need to own the studios to have them make games for Game Pass? They should be able to be Steam for XBox and PC. Just be the platform, not the owner of the studio. Pay per use, make the costs variable, not fixed
Great conversation. I do wish for games that get a sequel, the developers would scan the console for possible gamemsaves from the first game, see what skills were aquired, how many times it was upgrade, and give us those skills for the sequel. With that out of the way, the game will generate a new set of skills to do. It doesnt make sense to me the need to learn the same skills in the sequel. For example Horizon Zero Dawn and Forbidden West. Why did I need to upgrade the bow to shoot in slow mo....again.
At 26:50, the answer probably is that it takes about an x times more performance to render those frames, so a frame for moving forward, backward, jumping, so 3 for a Mario game and this is 2d, and I haven't even included firing a bullet/bean yet. And in 3d this will get multiplied by x again. So yeah computing that many frames ok cloud and sending that data is not feasible than just running it all on the local compute. Maybe a better idea is to send the whole level once and then you don't need storage or a large memory buffer for games to be played. And if the hardware is powerful enough to render the game, there you go. A cheaper local machine and also includes cloud. But you would always need a local device to render the frames.
They cache mentioned reminded me of how VR will basically move the current frame spherically around you to give continuity until the next frame is ready. Kind of like games that keep a character running until the fact they stopped catches up or like frame generation in some cases. I love the idea of a PS6lite 1080P portable. I just worry about battery life. Also working as a portal at home is a feature. I've been hearing about ultraram and having a console with unified memory with very low latency to 3dv cache would be new. AI dungeon has been getting better and I would love masseffect like games or fable or quest for glory. If AI can ever learn your sense of humor.
Sony will never curate their content, they just want those royalties with zero interest in quality. People loved to brag about the size of the PS1's library but magically forgot the amount of absolute shit software that infected it. It was super easy to program for so it got every low effort cash grab movie tie in and Barbie's Dreamboat Adventure game. There was a lot of great games but holy fuck there was an ocean of crap. While Nintendo used to make sure games passed their "seal of quality" it was really only because they could only manufacture so many cartridges and they wanted to make sure they were going to games that would sell well, not because they cared about quality. Once games were digital Nintendo got bogged down by shit shovelware too cause they DGAF about quality either.
For sure. Of course it can be done today just not economically viable. I love APUs like I love how my 89 prelude can keep up with a 5.0 mustang in the corners.. doing more with less is more impressive than simply doing more.
pixels-per-inch and the distance from the display, theres legit recommendations. higher than 4K can be noticed but it'll be the sweet spot for high-end gaming for much longer, with dlss/upscaling of course. one thing I always forget is that 60hz+framegen can bring more 120hz presentations for the PS5 Pro, the Slight CPU bump aint shit but AI frames will do the trick.
25:00 the problem with streaming/caching/backfilling all options to a small box is both compute and bandwidth, if there's 100 potential outcomes to an action in a game you have to compute and send all 100. Today we see systems cant hit 60FPS at good resolutions, working out all 100 options for each frame will take 100X the compute power.
It's so nice to hear guys like Colin finally talk about enjoying framerate, for years my console friends acted like they adored 30fps 'cinematic' and blahblahblah I wasn't even trying to convert them to PC just in casual conversation, now that 60fps has become and option more and more they finally understand and like Colin, poopoo games they would otherwise be looking forward too if 60fps/performance mode isnt an option for them on console
Feel free to comment if you think I'm wrong, but fact is we are already at a point where it is very possible to comfortly get 144 frames per seond even in 4k with a top gpu dependent on details level and wether you want ray tracing on/off. Most people playing competitive normally don't want this anyway The human eye is not able to detect higher frame rates anyway. What people are getting wrong is FPS (frames per second) isn't the problem in FPS games (First Person Shooter's) or other competive titles. It's input lag, frame time latency and network latency that is the culpit when your not able to react fast enough when you spot an enemy that is already 200ms ahead of you. the thing with Monitors that can do 540 frames per second is absolutely nutters. It won't fix any of the latency problems. If you could do away with primary the input latency of your controller and any network latency. if you game with a decent gpu on an OLED Monitor that is sitting at the usually
i dont think streaming will take off any time soon. Maybe in 50 years, but people forgot how first world it is to have really fast internet, let alone internet that allows you stream a game with no input lag ? LOL
I think Epic and Amazon Prime free games and steep, steep Steam sales have ruined the market. Why buy new when I have a backlog of several years worth of games and then can just buy out-of-date titles on the cheap?
If you are interested in a SCIENTIFIC study of engagement vs isolation of people as they get older and their death, then look at the Bonn Longitudinal Study for Gerontology from the Psychological department of the University of Bonn. It was started by Hans J. Thomae and concluded by Ursula Lehr in the mid to late eighties.
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My silicon is broken
Console sales have a lot to do with why God of War sales are so high, 22.5million ps5s 15million Godofwar sales then compare xbox 7 million consoles if 1/3rd songs market is taken by xbox then ps5 vs xbox is closer to 50% each then God of War would have only 10million sales which isn't as good as it first looks on paper. So if xbox was at 15million consoles their 10million high selling game would be 20 million copies sold if all math is equal(cant really sell more copies than xboxes). But xbox has only 7 million consoles so they could likely only get 5million copies a game sold & if you double then its equal to 10mil/god of war if Sony had 7mil less consoles so mathwise 10mil is about the best any game can reach with current market share of both console split. So basically a 15 mil copy game on ps5 is the same as a 5mil copy sold on xbox.
The worst nightmare is a subscription only console that only let's you play games while subscription is active, the console is free but you have to be subscribed & is digital only but you always have gamepass.
The dream is a xbox 1440p laptop duel boots in either xbox or windows os...
Handheld are interesting but I'm not sure if my ideal of a builtin handleheld which becomes portable by having all the needed specs as the console but has extra hardware in the box that boosts the handhelds performance, example you can have the best cpu/gpu in the handheld just down clocked while not in placed in the box where it can get the proper cooling/other needed stuff to run at max performance.
I always hear people saying that 4k is enough and you can't tell the difference but I disagree. I have a 65" 4k tv and sit about 6 feet away and notice the stair stepping on diagonal lines.
@@robertlawrence9000yeah I'm on 55 in sitting about 3 and 1/2 maybe 4 ft away.. fortunately it's an LG OLED, and they have an actual bespoke 1440p mode.. or at least something that is close to the next best thing outside of native... I made a rule with myself Don't go over 60, don't go over 1440 because you're just not going to be able to go back..
One thing that just absolutely drives me insane is going from clear to less clear clear to less clear etc.. it's one of the tragedies of the best practice that epic was pushing with the TAA, to have it be variable when you're moving throughout the game world and not focusing on anything according to them... And then sharpen up when you stop lol.. which is funny how similar it looks to bad LOD scaling.. which is funny cuz it usually comes packaged with bad LOD scaling...
When I'm comfortable I can push both, then I will.. and enjoy it.. but yeah lol you can see it for sure especially at 65... Especially with aliasing, that's why I'm such a fan of DLSS, it really does just nail anti-aliasing better than anything else...*
Especially the way modern developers often render transparencies and sprites and particle effects... Switching from TAA to DLSS, when you're talking about things happening in motion quickly.. it's so nice it's like getting a time machine back to win this wasn't really that big of an issue.. not that great of a time machine and your glasses still have Vaseline on them.. but it's still easily the best solution for the modern rendering techniques in that regard.
The one downside I've seen so far is it has a tendency to oversharpen under baked LOD scale.. so if you're trying to get fancy like the cyberpunk implementation does... It actually looks blurrier until the LOD sharpens and and comes into play.. which unfortunately is after the post-processing for some reason.. it's an easy enough fix, but it has some serious side effects that wouldn't be a problem for somebody that knew what they were doing in the adjustment... But that leads into another annoying thing...
Unfortunately it comes with so many addendums, half the time you have to fix the mip bias your own self in the driver... You always have to use a sharpening filter of some kind, ironically I love to use AMDs CAS, cuz it's the best.. but that means I also have to use reshade to get that to work..
And the real kicker is that dlaa should just solve most of these issues lol... If only Nvidia would have not made it their doctrine to label the technology within four bespoke settings that wildly vary between them.. especially when you can actually have in betweens lol... But to do so you have to use a third party injector.. because.. I guess we can't have the nicest of things or just the regular nice things or just you know medium things.. and if you do then at the very least you going to have to bleed a little to earn the gifts that Jensen bestows upon you lol.
I miss the old IGN days before podcasts were common. Daemon on game scoop, TRL podcast just being crazy low effort anarchy, and colin and Greg on the Playstation podcast. That was the golden era of IGN to me.
For me too.
Same. Colin and Greg were peak.
I remember opening IGN every day to look for news from the big three consoles of the early 2000s. Such a nice time. I will be honest, I really do prefer the current status cuo of youtube reviews. Any time any youtuber does a shady review like the actman did, there are tons of youtubers ready to jump on them with proof.
Yep. Beyond is terrible now. The hosts are all awful save for Altano.
I actually just discovered the other day that Daemon is still doing Game Scoop and it's still pretty great but he's the exception...you couldn't pay me to watch Beyond or any of their other terrible podcasts. Amazing how far they've fallen when they brought in DEI hires rather than likable and talented people.
Oh thank god. Came here from Sacred Symbols community. I'm a Nuclear Physicist and I've been arguing for awhile that streaming can't replace hardware. Also want to point out the speed of light in a fibre is actually SLOWER than the speed of light in a vacuum same for air and wireless signals. First time I've heard an industry commentator make this point. Made my day.
Its fine if you are next to the data centres in a city centre or next to a university (they tend to be located innclose proximity to universities fir whatever reason at least herr in the uk) but if you love in a rural area the latency wuickly becomes an issue.
Thank you! Ex Electrical Engineer turned Network Engineer with experience in both Telecommunications and Enterprise Networks here. This whole conversation about everything going to cloud is driving me crazy. Everybody is just saying it with no knowledge on the physics of it. I still see latency on my PlayStation Portal with my PS5 physically wired and a very robust wifi6e home network.
suggesting that Streaming in the forseable future (this and next gen) will not be viable ?
@MrCarpediem6 stating it will probably be viable if you live in a major city, right next to data centres and your isp exchange is close enough to both you and the data centres. But live in the countryside or smaller cities and towns and chances are you will likely find it doesn't work or is pretty inconsistent. Hardware is the way to go.
You don't need to be in a rural area for it to have the same issue in the US. Most games are hosted in maybe 3 locations around the country if you are lucky, sometimes just 1 in Chicago or Dallas. The US is pretty damn large if you haven't noticed, that is just too far for the light to travel to have a good experience.
All above being the case how comes GeForce now best case can be as low as 40ms from input to on screen reaction? Thats lower than almost any native console hardware atm
I totally agree with Colin. India and Brazil should be top priority for game Streaming but the focus is the US and Europe, where people can have access to consoles at a reasonable price.
time stamp
The internet infrastructure is the absolute worst in those areas. Latency would be through the roof at best.
Impossible.
Two reasons: internet and cost.
Explanation: Even in the middle of Europe or US internet is not good enough for streaming games. You think it's good enough in India and Brasil? Cost of buying games or subscriptions is too much for poor countries. Most people either buy physical games from second hands for cheap or play in "internet cafes" or simply pirate games.
India and Brazil has a grip of people but few that have the disposable income to buy $70 games. Not to mention internet access is laughably archaic in these countries. Ferrari isn't about to start opening dealerships in Africa.
@@user-fe2oh8oj2u as it turns out, the 4g infrastructure in Brazil is pretty good. Also, prepaid plans are really cheap. You pay something like $1 for 24hrs of unlimited data for Netflix or UA-cam.
The graphics in fidelity mode on PS5 is more than enough. Forbidden West and TLOU2 Remaster look insane. We just need 60fps fidelity.
Lol I’m laughing at these 8k@60 rumors. Lucky to barely get native 4k@60 probably.
Still my favorite YT colab. Always a great conversation
As someone who games on PC and PS5- very much love having so much console coverage. Keep it up!
same! i'm a pc main and a ps5 for playstation and exclusives! :)
@@curryking1 Playstation exclusives are on PC now.
I've been butt hurt about Gran Turismo being exclusive for far too long. I am exclusive to PC and absolutely love GT from PS1 and 2 days.
@@hemanownsyoumost arrive 2 or more years later and some haven't even came out, so yeah it is worth it to game of both
@@hemanownsyou lmao 90% of them are not, you would know that if you played games on more than one platform
I remember Gaben taking a swipe at game streaming 10 plus years ago. I think he basically said that if you started with streaming you'd eventually move to local hardware because it solves the networking issues.
I also have to wonder if streaming is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. There's no problem with local boxes 🤷♀️
Streaming isn't a solution to anything other than companies getting money without us the consumer owning anything.
@@mikew1080 absolutely spot on
This episode's major point is all that entertainment (games, music, tv, movies, etc) is fighting for a limited resource.....people's free time. The cheap money era is over and companies need to turn a profit on these investments in a shorter time frame.
well making corporation scale product works for SAP, Oracle and others but rarely for entertainment which needs that grip, local touch that lukewarm international mass product is near impossible to get. Hollywood movies arguably have failed for same reason, trying to reach for skys ended up making many movies so smoothened those say nothing to nobody.
I am a PC gamer all the way, but man this episode was fascinating. Thanks for the hard work
I've been listening to sacred symbols for a while, and I've heard colin mention this channel all the time. But man, this is one of the best podcast episodes I've listened to in a long time.
What a stellar conversation to eavesdrop on. I don't know how I've never heard of Colin before but I'm subscribing to his podcast immediately. Best MLID of 2024 so far.
This was a great podcast. The underlying issue of Xbox’s upcoming announcement is clearly the economics of gamepass and the Xbox ecosystem. There is a lot of low quality discussion about the issue that strays from this but this podcast provided some much needed relevant analysis.
Completely agree with Colin on the unrealistic expectations some gamers have for pricing. People really don’t get how much more effort and cost goes into making a game today
People are more pissed off with games like Yakuza, which hide new game plus behind a pay wall
Honestly just charge $80 next gen. There will be growing pains, and the first game to do it will suffer saleswise but this is a bandage that needs to be pulled out.
unless a game is really really good to me like the next civilization game ill never pay more than $30 for it i dont care about the economic reality. spend less on making your games. almost always buy exspensive games on sale a year or 2 later.
DRM should have made games cheaper, but instead we got less game for a higher price with nothing physical or actual ownership of purchased product. in other words paying more for less.
He is right on how the masses have no clue (and honestly don't wanna clue) as to how expensive this stuff is to make.
At the same time, gamers are a bunch of cheap fickle coonts. There is an upper limit to how much they will pay for, not only a game, but for hardware or put into this overall.
Prices now for hardware have had a decent chunk jump to console because they aren't about the new age price of GPUs. Games going up, even I feel many will find other hobbies (just to realize the upper end of PC gaming is the entry point for many hobbies that are worth it 😂)
One of the BEST episodes you've ever done!!!! You and Colin were great. So much excellent insight.
resolution is definitely not a distraction from the frame rate. you need a middle ground, aliasing is so distracting at 1080p (for me)
1440p seems like a great comprise to me
@@kommandantvhs4994I agree. I have been playing at 1440p for 6 years now. I never feel the need to go for 4K at all.
I heard him talking early on. he definitely makes a valid point. I don't like watching people play early release games that I cannot get because of the simple fact I can't play along with them and what I'm going to spoil the whole game by watching him play it. I'd rather go into a game blind then be spoiled. it's no fun so I applaud you for that
You should listen to the pod, they'll talk about game that are 3 years old, just because they can
This episode was a classic, so good!
I think his argument for curated content for Sony has some merit, but it would absolutely be an opportunity cost
Steam allows some really "low quality" games like Vampire Survivors and every now and then they just blow up and millions of people play these "low quality" games
If you only do curated games then you will be the last to get these gems and i don't think that is worth it (you already pay for the infrastructure either way)
Vampire Survivors is pretty great!
Vampire Survivors made me use a Steam account. I'm mostly a AAA Sony Pony but after Hades introduced me to Roguelites, I'd heard so much hype for it at such low cost that I had to try it. They weren't wrong either. That game was like heroin.
The first 12:35 of this video is important today more than it ever has been. So many UA-cam channels are absolute shills these days for that sponsored product review dollar. ETA prime is a good example. Even the guys over ar Digital foundry currate their graphical anaylsis videos as to not try and step on game dev toes while collectively circle jerking Nvidia on ray tracing and DLSS gimmicks and they dont even speak their minds anymore. The content integrity is slipping big time and everyone is shilling out for that corproate dollar; it's getting harder to trust "reviews"
right on brother
Every reviewer is biased one way or another. Be it monetarily or ideologically. (Buildzoid with his overclocking fetish comes to mind, or LTT which are corporate shills)
Sad but true. There are fewer and fewer trustworthy sources
as soon as RTX came out digital foundry went downhill
@@WayStedYou after all they were 1st one to get reviews out
This is one of the best MLID I’ve ever watched
Isn't that the inventor of the Morifarty? Can't believe you got that legend, beyond.
Yo I completely forgot about this 😂😂
Never heard of this channel but I'm a big fan of Colin. What a great Podcast. Awesome job guys!
mostly a pc hardware leak channel.
I've only ever heard of Colin on the (unnecessarily political) SideScrollers podcast, so I won't be watching this weeks episode after Stuttering Craig's interview. But I'm glad you found this channel!
I moved from a 1080 24" screen to a 1440 32" screen and I will never go back!
Im one of the old Xbox gamers that grew up with OG Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, and then as an Adult switched to PC because Xbox and PlayStation started putting their games on Steam and I like the freedom of the PC platform.
1:00:00 yup this right there, 10 years ago, some friends of mine would have a bunch of $50 physical games, nowadays they wait for the 80% off sale if you REALLY need that specific game, the free games on Epic Store and that gamepass trial month just to finish a game they wanted for basically free
I remember having a 3 months game pass subscription and I never used it, I was busy with another game. You’d have to be a machine to go through all the monthly games…I hate feeling rushed in a game, and don’t forget that 200+ games in my Steam library I still have to go through…it’s over saturated
it is logical.... if you know it will soon be on sale 1) you cant have any resale value 2) you dont much own that game as digital 3) no bragging rights or possibility to easily borrow game to friend
4) (not related to price) launch day rush of walkthroughs everywhere + not related to game hype will ruin experience even without spoilers.
steam sucks.
G.O.G is superior.
exactly right sometimes you dont even have to wait a month and there 50 dollars on ebay in a week
My Grandma turned 100 years old in December. Far as I know she has seen a video game maybe at a family Xmas party. She to this day will have the TV playing any TV game show. She is doing okay for the age, but yes she is old.
I love the complete focus on console gaming this episode. So many things I haven't paid attention to or didn't think anything of brought to my attention here.
This conversation was awesome. Easiest sub this year! Love me some logical and speculative tech talk. :)
As we like to say in the internet networking business, "the speed of light is unbeaten." Even getting rid of all the copper in the ground and the walls won't make game streaming have imperceptible latency. EDIT: LOL, I wrote this comment a few minutes before Tom said it! Nice. I'm glad he got there.
Colin is DEFINITELY NOT a fanboy and any reasonable minded individual would know this. Heck, SONY PR has blacklisted him for years now because of the s**t he gives them. Great colab video; subscribed just the other day when Colin said he would be on here.
Get a job
I love Colin…
But he is a fanboy
Just a bit more rational than other fanboys
I already have one but I appreciate the concern. Have a fantastic day! @@phoenixzappa7366
@@jarde1989I wouldn’t call him a fanboy. He’s dedicated to the ecosystem, but I feel like to be a fanboy you have to defend a company when they do bad things. Colin criticizes PlayStation more than almost anyone in games media.
The very definition of fanboy is a fan who is so fervently devoted they become irrational. There is no such thing as a rational fanboy. He’s not a fanboy
I'd love a series X that I could put windows on that had optimized drivers from Microsoft.
If only. That is too open a platform.
Would have the added advantage that it would play PlayStation PC games
Listen to me, ship all Xbox's with Winodws on and integrate special "Xbox Series Console" graphical settings(optional) on all PC games. For a gamer who isn't otherwise interested in tech, this would make them feel like they are playing on a console.
Agreed. Imagine if you picked up a Series X for $350 this past holiday, and you were able to put windows on it. Really great deal for the hardware you’d be getting.
@@VenomSnakeMGS as amazing as this would be they just will never do it.. at least not in the capacity described here. Perhaps MS will release an Xbox with a Windows type of OS but it will be artificially locked down as to not cannibalize the PC market. If I were MS I wouldn't let you install windows either.
34:31 That depends mostly on the budget. A cheap indie game doesn't need to get a large customer base to be successful.
Getting potential buyers of a game to learn of its existence, however, definitely is a problem with that much volume. It's really up to the developer to figure out where the target audience hangs out, and promote the game in those locations.
I only care about Gamepass, if they sell their game on PS I don't care, I only play on PC
Is that the guy that was calling gamers entitled for not liking ending of ME3?
I personally noticed a large difference going from 60 to 100 fps (perhaps the motion clarity too?) But then Going to 144 wasn't so big of a jump. Going from 60 to 100 is like 30 to 60 for me, I just cant agree that 60 is ok anymore
1:03:43 yeah - I tend to agree somewhat, the last handful of years has really showed this in my opinion.
Microsoft lost money on making consoles , now what they want to do is just buy game publisher and studios that make games, so MS can now sell games to play on sony PS5 , MS will make way more money , no need for Xbox to exist.
Bad take
that is square enix route and bunch of playstation exclusives often come on (windows) steam a bit later (horizon zero dawn etc).
The reason why Sony / Nintendo would never allow GamePass (and collect their 30%) is because it devalues games and trains consumers not to pay for them. It is net deflationary when game prices are already not catching up with inflation.
Palworld currently is disproving his opinion on Harry Potter and the others. People want a good game without micro transactions. And it's killing it in the price department.
Not every business model works for every game, it's just like diets... Not every diet works for every human. So I have to disagree with your statement. Micro transactions are not always bad, it's just the way they are implemented that is bad in some games.
@@user-hq6kn5vp2q by your own argument you are wrong. Like a diet for the vast majority of people a normal caloric deficit but well rounded and high protein works. Just like games the vast majority don't want money transaction garbage with is the vast majority of micro transaction games. So get out of here with that crap. People want good games without micro transactions. 2023 and already in 2024 are proving it.
Colin’s argument wasn’t that gamers don’t want complete games. He said developers won’t take the hint, because most of them are currently developing live service games right now. Regardless of what we want, most developers and publishers seem to think they know better. Maybe they’ll pivot in 3 or so years, but for right now, I think they’re locked into live service, regardless of the statement we make with our wallets.
palworld is also $20
Palworld is not even that good of a game. I have about 50h played and will play it again from the start with some mods that fixes a bunch of annoyances. The only reason it is as popular as it is, is because of "it is pokemon with guns".
These videos get me through my work day 😊
2009-to-2011 were dark times for the PC platform. Valve and Nvidia were the true innovators that kept PC gaming alive. Intel and AMD just tagged along.
i love pc gaming, i switched from console since 2007. its expensive i know but i love aiming with the mouse so much better, and you also could use a controller no problem. i like building pc' s
Awesome discussion. I enjoyed every minute and word said. Brilliant! Thanks for the contribution to our video games news Tom :)
Always love the MLD and Last Stand collaborations
Full disclosure: this is totally anecdotal, but the smaller group of friends I have that are on Gamepass are bored and burnt out. They also frequently skip playing games online with the group because they either don’t have it, or are prioritizing single player games they they got for “free”
Holy shit this was a great podcast. I had to rewind quite a few times. My mind was set on things, but to hear another POV is such a breath of fresh air.
Don't forget to share and subscribe!
Ah good. I’m walking the dog, now I have something good to listen to.
Years ago, my God Father told me that same thing (About the problem of speed of light and distances of cache/ram/storage/cpu/gpu all that.) Its really ironic we shrunk the computer so much, that distances of components have become an issue. Totally mind-blowing, physics are limiting our technology.
Einstein tells us we're limited to _c_ in the *perfectly idealized case.* Realistically, if you're on FTTH, you're on light most of the way (and to be clear, that's light through glass, which is slower then light through a vacuum), but you're still likely converting to electrical signals which are processed for routing. That's going to take time, and that's latency. I believe there is some work being done on packet-switching optically, which will help, but beyond that we're at the best physics can give us.
The only way to move beyond that would be something like quantum entanglement, which some theories says we can't use for transmitting information.
What goes around comes around. I remember when we had computer stores with software selling whatever shovel-ware in the days of the Commodores, Apple IIe, etc.
Amazing show! I love when Colin doesn’t have to host. Reminds me of the good ol’ Beyond days.
I am on 28inch 4k and I often run games at higher than native specifically to try and help avoid jaggies and pixelation(not that it helps very much) point is.. it is ridiculous to say you can't tell the difference in resolutions or that a higher resolution is not beneficial. I guarantee I could see a huge difference in 4k and 8k on my 28inch monitor. Perhaps not 4x more clarity but I will see the difference and benefit 100%
Sure bud
@@AmateurHourProduWhat stake do you have in disagreeing? Do you not have good eye sight? 🤷 Do you only have 1080p?
Also,
"Sure" adds no value to the discussion.
@@christophermullins7163you physically cannot see a difference in that small of a screen between 4 and 8k you are full of crap, it doesn't matter how "good" your eyes are it is a physical limitation, but if you like lightning money on fire then who REALLY provides nothing to the convo? You.
@@AmateurHourProdu 🤣 dang buddy.. you're pathetic.
@@AmateurHourProdu dang buddy... You're pathetic. 🤣
Amazing show! More colaborations like this 👌
Long before cloud gaming was even a word, I thought it would be great to buy a subscription and play games remotely. A catalogue of games running on powerful servers sounded great. It would mean access to high quality without the expense of console/graphics card and individual games. Comes in Stadia and they require you to pay for each game alongside the subscription cost and offer less graphical power than upcoming consoles (PS5 generation). I doubt casual gamers would worry about input lag, it just seems like cloud gaming is simply a terrible offer right now.
Thanks for the suggestion Colin, I just purchased Batboy + OST on Steam.
Goooood conversation here guys. Love it
4k120 way better than 8k60
I will take option C of upscaled 1440p & 1000fps with whatever black magic is necessary. I can’t wait to experience that!
VGA CRT at 60Hz: better motion than both options you mentioned.
I would love a 4K CRT but the best monitor (Sony FW900) only can reach 2304x1440 80Hz.
Moar hz is the same bubble as more cores, i want strobbing.
@@lilnapkin462 pure garbage.
Hell yeah love a good LSM and Broken Silicon collab any time!
Great talk, guys!
The next-gen Xbox could beat the PlayStation if it's open to PC games and game mods. The benefits of a streamlined set of hardware specs and the freedom of PC gaming. Basically the console version of the Steam Deck.
fantastic conversation gents ✌️
Regarding the Oppenheimer analogy, it is evident from the real sales of games that those who are buying at full price in the most premier games will do so within the first quarter of launch after which almost every game starts taking price cuts. By next steam winter/sumer sale you would see a decent discount. In theater movies are still a limited run experience. Theres no way to watch it after the first quarter or so it hits the screen. Plus the gaming market has SO MANY GAMEs to pick from. Not to mention, theaters do struggle to get seats filled. The point is, if movies could run for years, you bet you ass they would be making pennies per seat by the end.
Now if GTA was $100 or $200 or $300, some would still be ok with buying it. You'd just see a proportional increase in piracy and people holding on for price drops. The market will decide whats fair and if they fk around they will find out, when people will just play something else. Some of the cheapest games right now are played the most.
TBF digital platforms are dirt cheap to keep it available (infrastructure wise, not accounting any content license agreements eg music) vs physical seats and square meters in some mall/downtown. Microsoft and couple other giants were just in news they "saved" billions just by extending their infrastructure lifetime to 6 years (ie not throwing to bin and getting hundreds of new servers just coz accounting has marking need to get rid of them after 4 or 5 years). Granted those bilions were only couple percent of their profits and revenues to put in perspective.
GTA V cost over $3,000 with all DLC.
The reason why the vita failed. Was its proprietary memory cards that where half the cost of the device. After purchasing the device, a game, and then the memory. you could buy a console or Nintendo hand held and four games. They got greedy. They became to paranoid of people pirating games. Like on the OG Vita. Vita wasn't timed bad. It Priced badly. Sony would have killed the hand held market if they didn't get greedy.
What a great episode!
01:30:32 Not a chance. It's physiologically impossible unless you're so close that you can't see the entire screen.
The human eye has a resolution limit, and it's already exceeded by 4K screens at a proper viewing distance (which at a minimum means you don't need to move your eyes to see the entire screen).
The human eye doesn't see in pixels or framerate, and I could tell the difference between 720p and 1080p 20 years ago despite the nonsense flung online.
The human eye is complicated, and not digital. It's a complex answer to a complex organ.
@@MooresLawIsDead If the Human eye couldn't see pixels how would you know if you had stuck pixel in a LCD screen?
@@MooresLawIsDead The human eye is a physical object that uses optics to create images. Optics are very well understood.
A normal human eye has a resolution of about one arcminute. It doesn't go far enough below that in exceptional individuals to make a difference.
You can easily calculate the angular size of a pixel at a given distance, and can therefore definitely show whether or not a human can see more detail, or if they're on the edge of maybe seeing more or maybe not.
I've done the math. I'm completely certain of my conclusions.
The fact that your response involves telling the difference between 1280x720 and 1920x1080 - something nobody says you can't do - is telling.
Is he hitting the weed cart @ 6:23 ?😂
Dope. I guess he's cool.
I've been looking forward to this one!
Great episode.
I enjoy Collin's bias. It's vieled and I enjoy him thinking it isn't. Luckliy I like Sony more so I don't mind it but the news regarding sony going forward is kinda dire.
In regards to the guests question on why streaming game services cant download a cache of data to assist on latency issues: This is already done on mobile gaming and even on the Apple TV, this is not actually game streaming, but is asset streaming, it requires the local device to still do all the heavy lifting.
I went full circle on the whole PC gaming thing. Sold Xbox Series X and PS5 for a Steam Deck. For a month I was on cloud nine. Then it slowly started to creep in. It became a chore to find the right settings to get a game to be playable. Figured it was the specs, so I got a ROG Ally. Again, for a month I was thinking “Wow, this is great!” And between Windows installing the wrong AMD driver, to Windows updates that would fail, to ASUS sending out things that would conflict with Windows, right back to “how do I find the right configuration for this game to be playable” I just didn’t want to deal with it. I’m back on Consoles, PS5 in the living room. Next month added a 4TB SSD to it, will order a new Xbox Series X and get the 2TB expansion card on that. I’ll play on my phone via Backbone. I don’t have it in me to play these games to just play a game. I tried.
There are actually AI NPC mods for Skyrim that uses ChatGPT and it works the way you said but the issue is you need to make a paid monthly ChatGPT account to get the mod to work.
Biggest question of the show: how does Phil Spencer still have a job? He's been presiding over the slow death of the Xbox for a decade now. A smart exec could've turned things around in that time after the Xbox One/Dom Mattrick fiasco. Especially considering the resources MSFT have at their disposal...
Instead of a turn around, seems like Gane Pass is the rope that will hang the Xbox hardware division.
2:09:20 i cant understand why Microsoft doesn't have native game pass on steam deck its not a huge narket but they need the numbers.
Valve is pushing linux gaming with steam deck and proton for 2 main reasons.
1. It gives them full control in specing theirs hardware (vr, handheld and etc) due to linux open source nature.
2. Create an open source alternative to Microsoft in PC market.
On the other hand, Microsoft wants to spread windows as their main platform and then sell game pass, office 365 and other products. Valve basically goes against Microsoft.
@@thexndr5773 yeah but I don't think they should care they'll eventually put game pass on Nintendo and Sony so why not steam deck.
@Spencerwalker21 Sony and Nintendo are superior to Microsoft in the gaming industry. Plus, they're outside of the PC market, so it's essentially just a fight between gaming departments.
Otherwise, Valve competes not only with Xbox, but also with Windows, which, in fact, is the basis of other Microsoft products. Windows' market share has been declining in recent years due to the popularity of MacOS, so for them a new alternative in the PC market is not good. Of course, the Linux desktop isn't big enough to be a problem at the moment. But it's definitely growing faster because of the steam deck and the proton. That's how I see it.
Maybe you're right and they're just waiting for a larger market share, but I highly doubt it.
@@thexndr5773 you might be right but I think Xbox is just cooked they're maybe not next gen but after that they're out of the console game and need 60 million plus game pass subscribers and don't think valve is ever going to crack 1% of the PC space.
@@thexndr5773 I liked the idea presented during the podcast that Microsoft should launch a 400$ box with an Xbox mode but ship it with Windows by default and try to hit that it's a cheap PC that just happens to have console games and game pass. My out there idea was too partially copy Nintendo by making a Xbox handheld basically a next gen Xbox series s with the power of the series x in a couple years starting at 349$ and sell a standalone dock that while docked the handheld has the power of the PS5 pro or PS6 whatever. And they could sell the handheld and dock bundle for 600$ and it comes with game pass for free for 2 years.
Loved it.
Good timing with the recent xbox leaks regarding strategy. It all seems to add up.
Streaming service would be fine for some kinds of games, but what games are currently popular and profitable?
The idea of local cache-ing of data doesn't relieve the cheap low power device of the complex 3D calculations responding in real time.
Many strategy games just don't need high FPS or low latency because you aren't controlling units in real time, but "giving orders they attempt to follow", but these kind of thoughtful decision games are a small slice of the market.
Basically the kind of gaming most enthusiasts enjoy is high intensity for gaming duration so local compute resources simply makes sense. Centralised resources help when you benefit from sharing a high capacity system that is not highly interactive.
Why does Microsoft need to own the studios to have them make games for Game Pass?
They should be able to be Steam for XBox and PC. Just be the platform, not the owner of the studio. Pay per use, make the costs variable, not fixed
went to PC this year and couldn't be happier.
The ending discussion with possible end of game pass makes me think there could be a big push for game conservation, after that happens.
Look up speed of processing studies for brain health. Video games give speed of processing challenges but crossword puzzles don’t.
Great conversation.
I do wish for games that get a sequel, the developers would scan the console for possible gamemsaves from the first game, see what skills were aquired, how many times it was upgrade, and give us those skills for the sequel. With that out of the way, the game will generate a new set of skills to do.
It doesnt make sense to me the need to learn the same skills in the sequel. For example Horizon Zero Dawn and Forbidden West. Why did I need to upgrade the bow to shoot in slow mo....again.
I called this too
Expect portables to replace the previous generation consoles. One way to extend product life.
At 26:50, the answer probably is that it takes about an x times more performance to render those frames, so a frame for moving forward, backward, jumping, so 3 for a Mario game and this is 2d, and I haven't even included firing a bullet/bean yet. And in 3d this will get multiplied by x again. So yeah computing that many frames ok cloud and sending that data is not feasible than just running it all on the local compute.
Maybe a better idea is to send the whole level once and then you don't need storage or a large memory buffer for games to be played. And if the hardware is powerful enough to render the game, there you go. A cheaper local machine and also includes cloud. But you would always need a local device to render the frames.
35:50 Who else looked up the games that Colin mentioned? 🤣
They cache mentioned reminded me of how VR will basically move the current frame spherically around you to give continuity until the next frame is ready. Kind of like games that keep a character running until the fact they stopped catches up or like frame generation in some cases.
I love the idea of a PS6lite 1080P portable. I just worry about battery life. Also working as a portal at home is a feature.
I've been hearing about ultraram and having a console with unified memory with very low latency to 3dv cache would be new.
AI dungeon has been getting better and I would love masseffect like games or fable or quest for glory.
If AI can ever learn your sense of humor.
Sony will never curate their content, they just want those royalties with zero interest in quality. People loved to brag about the size of the PS1's library but magically forgot the amount of absolute shit software that infected it. It was super easy to program for so it got every low effort cash grab movie tie in and Barbie's Dreamboat Adventure game. There was a lot of great games but holy fuck there was an ocean of crap.
While Nintendo used to make sure games passed their "seal of quality" it was really only because they could only manufacture so many cartridges and they wanted to make sure they were going to games that would sell well, not because they cared about quality. Once games were digital Nintendo got bogged down by shit shovelware too cause they DGAF about quality either.
Always enjoy you on Sacred+, Tom. Excited to check out Colin on your home turf this time.
27:40 I can imagine people in a future retirement home replaying the bear scene from Baldur's Gate III :p
amd current gen apu already beats ps4 pro, so by 2026 they may be able make a low power mobile apu that can catch up with the ps5
For sure. Of course it can be done today just not economically viable. I love APUs like I love how my 89 prelude can keep up with a 5.0 mustang in the corners.. doing more with less is more impressive than simply doing more.
pixels-per-inch and the distance from the display, theres legit recommendations. higher than 4K can be noticed but it'll be the sweet spot for high-end gaming for much longer, with dlss/upscaling of course. one thing I always forget is that 60hz+framegen can bring more 120hz presentations for the PS5 Pro, the Slight CPU bump aint shit but AI frames will do the trick.
17:37 That claim simply is not true. It was half that for what might be considered either upper mid-range or lower high-end, back in 1992.
25:00 the problem with streaming/caching/backfilling all options to a small box is both compute and bandwidth, if there's 100 potential outcomes to an action in a game you have to compute and send all 100. Today we see systems cant hit 60FPS at good resolutions, working out all 100 options for each frame will take 100X the compute power.
It's so nice to hear guys like Colin finally talk about enjoying framerate, for years my console friends acted like they adored 30fps 'cinematic' and blahblahblah I wasn't even trying to convert them to PC just in casual conversation, now that 60fps has become and option more and more they finally understand and like Colin, poopoo games they would otherwise be looking forward too if 60fps/performance mode isnt an option for them on console
thats nice... 60fps seems sweetspot for casual gamer. on pc ofcourse can go as high as wallet allows but diminishing returns without good monitor.
Feel free to comment if you think I'm wrong, but fact is we are already at a point where it is very possible to comfortly get 144 frames per seond even in 4k with a top gpu dependent on details level and wether you want ray tracing on/off. Most people playing competitive normally don't want this anyway The human eye is not able to detect higher frame rates anyway. What people are getting wrong is FPS (frames per second) isn't the problem in FPS games (First Person Shooter's) or other competive titles. It's input lag, frame time latency and network latency that is the culpit when your not able to react fast enough when you spot an enemy that is already 200ms ahead of you. the thing with Monitors that can do 540 frames per second is absolutely nutters. It won't fix any of the latency problems. If you could do away with primary the input latency of your controller and any network latency. if you game with a decent gpu on an OLED Monitor that is sitting at the usually
i dont think streaming will take off any time soon. Maybe in 50 years, but people forgot how first world it is to have really fast internet, let alone internet that allows you stream a game with no input lag ? LOL
I think Epic and Amazon Prime free games and steep, steep Steam sales have ruined the market. Why buy new when I have a backlog of several years worth of games and then can just buy out-of-date titles on the cheap?
If you are interested in a SCIENTIFIC study of engagement vs isolation of people as they get older and their death, then look at the Bonn Longitudinal Study for Gerontology from the Psychological department of the University of Bonn.
It was started by Hans J. Thomae and concluded by Ursula Lehr in the mid to late eighties.
is it just me or does the host's voice sound like the guest's which was sped up like 10%?