Truth of the Book of Abraham (Part 1) Documents & Timeline - Dan Vogel
Вставка
- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- In this video I discuss Joseph Smith’s procurement of Egyptian papyri and mummies in July 1835 and explore the documents he produced while “translating” what he called the Book of Abraham. I also deal with the attempts of Mormon apologists to extricate Joseph Smith from clear evidence that he could not translate Egyptian.
In a recent Facebook response, Brian Hauglid, one of the BYU “apologists” featured in my Book of Abraham videos, clarified his current position and now wishes to disassociate himself from the views of John Gee and Kerry Muhlestein. As an endorsement of these videos and a service to Hauglid, I post a portion of his statement here:
“For the record, I no longer hold the views that have been quoted from my 2010 book in these videos. ... In fact, I'm no longer interested or involved in apologetics in any way. I wholeheartedly agree with Dan’s excellent assessment of the Abraham/Egyptian documents in these videos. ... One can find that I've changed my mind in my recent and forthcoming publications. The most recent JSP Revelations and Translation vol. 4, The Book of Abraham and Related Manuscripts (now on the shelves) is much more open to Dan’s thinking on the origin of the Book of Abraham.” (Brian Hauglid, Facebook, 8 Nov. 2018)
_________________________
Please help me continue to deliver quality content by DONATING today:
PayPal: paypal.me/DVog...
It's disgusting how they try to make it fit when this has NOTHING to do with Abraham.
It’s amazing how the apologists continue to delude themselves. Much easier than admitting you’ve been ‘had’.
@HEAVEN IS 4 REAL yet you have a picture of trump, who calls himself a Christian. Even though he is an adulterer and a liar. The Bible says to treat refugees with love and respect, what does Trump do? Puts them in cages. Then you go around telling people they're wrong instead of doing the godly thing, which is to show love (love your neighbor like yourself). You are hypocrite.
@@juke1225 nope. His choices, behavior and Twitter feed was enough for me to be to dislike him.
@@juke1225 facts are facts buddy.
@@juke1225 Not true. I know politics quite well, I understand the constitution and I see through the culture wars and identity politics that infest the spectrum of American politics. This isn’t an attack on you or anyone who votes republican. We can agree to disagree. But Trump was not a good president, the only thing he did that I liked was the tariffs. Universal basic income, global warming restrictions and healthcare for all is something we need as a nation.
@@jacobreeves3110 he's not the one who has more than one wife he didn't commit fraud by making up text you didn't commit racist Lies by making up a scam cult he's an old egg he's our guy pimp who's just nothing he's not the one who started a cult Trump is an angel compared to Smith way so
It must be a very daunting job to be a Mormon apologist these days with Dan Vogel around !
No, dan Voigel is using slight of hand like Hudini. After watching the new video part Abraham 9 by Gregersen and then watching part 15 also..I am compelled by the Bible alone to determine that this guy Gregersen is light years ahead of Vogel and showing us straight biblical truth and not some delusion. Didn't Jesus say that his way would be a straight and narrow path and few would even find it? The way that the Bible identifies the house of Joseph alone to gather the church for Christ perfectly fits all the Bible prophecies while all other churches totally ignore this fact in their Bible. The way these other churches lie about Joseph Smith was shocking to me when I watched Paul's video titled "LDS transaction law suits" He proved to me why and how the lies against Smith were engineered and then exposed in a real court case. Why the all out effort to destroy this church on line? Why not be far more upset about truly dangerous religions like extreme Islam or the really dangerous cults out there? The fact that Gregersen solved the biggest Bible mystery on this earth called 666 is jaw dropping. What he shows in this video regardless of why this obviously is not some professional million dollar production, it all comes straight from the Bible itself and makes far more sense than any other Christian church on this important end times prophecy. Man tries to explain it his way always first and then in the end God shows us how his understanding is far superior. Prove it yourself! ua-cam.com/video/qQkeXB4qisg/v-deo.html Then see how Dan Vogel has tricked you.ua-cam.com/video/-ZCk6jX1CIY/v-deo.html
@@richarddick2955 Show one place where sleight of hand is used. In the meantime, may I suggest that you go to the LDS Temple in Independence, Missouri and read the Book of Joseph or the Gold Plates?
No.
@@richarddick2955 A very simple test can verify your inflated claims about Paul Gregersons outlandish speculations is the FACT that the church itself didn't want a bar of what he was on about.
Gregerson's videos, commentary and any other of his doings had ZERO impact upon the church leaders. Had there been any value to it they would've ran with it. They didn't. Gregerson has been rejected by the Church and it's leaders. It means absolutely NOTHING!.
See what kills me is the RLDS ignore this book but yet accept the Book of Mormon. Either JS was all right or wrong.
What amazingly I found about this cult is that Smith contradicted himself every year so in order to be part of that cold do you have to have your cake and eat it too because there's no way to reconcile it there's so many errors and it even in the BLM fraud there's errors in it Smith just kept refusing himself and contradicting his beliefs every year of his life until his death in prison in Carthage where he was killed for all the satanic luciferian fraud he promoted and made up.
I'm kind of surprised that Joe didn't claim the mummies were Abraham and Joseph.
nemovir 😂
I thought he claimed one of the 4 mummies was Abraham. IS that incorrect, and the mummies were just random people? If so, why would Joseph buy the mummies and not just the papyri? Lol
Garrett Richards I’m not sure about that. Possible. It’s all so fake it’s not even funny. Haha everything Joseph Smith did was fake.
Jacob Hansen Yeah it's all fake. I cant believe I wasted almost 25 years of my life believing it. Thankfully we have the internet, and Joseph's myths have been exposed for what they are. Hope you have an awesome weekend!
Garrett Richards Same to you!
My hats off to Joseph Smith. His career represents the most successful assault on rationality and rationalism in the modern era. Awesome personality and imagination.
Let me post Paul Gregersens better explanation than what BYU Scholars are clearly not getting right!
Listen prayerfully to what he says, QUOTE. "Instead of over explaining cosmology, why can't we just simplify say this! Even though the universe of stars are vastly numbered in the night sky, they cannot possibly be the focus for Moses and Abraham's visions. The night sky was not the actual meaning for the vision given to Abraham. God declares that it is man himself that means everything in Gods universe to him. For he said, man is my glory, Gods love through mankind" not glorifying the planet Saturn or any other physical body, nor even our sun up in the sky. God emphasizes his child as Moses, you are my son! Job clearly says we are the "sons of God" the real stars of the universal Devine plan playing out." He's not authorizing familiar stars like we see in the night sky as lights of a priesthood hierarchy as some scholars at BYU try to poorly explain this chapter.
These bodies are simply gases and rocks that were created FOR mankind.
In other words, these of themselves are simply necessary props for the real stage. We are the object of Gods love for mankind, not his love for the earth itself which is just a temporary prop! Heavenly bodies are not eternal because they eventually burn out in a few million years from now. People are the real eternal stars of our universe and they help make God's plan play out, the rest of creation are just stage props. Let's face it, Abraham is talking about a cosmos of living spirit stars (sons) all held together by God's priesthood light. The vision is about (mankind being everything to God) We are his true son's and daughters and not some gas planet like Jupiter symbolizing God's eternal life.
Jesus didn't die on the cross for space rocks and star dust gasses. That's why the cosmology of the book of Abraham doesn't work with any space science comparison's, because it's not about physical stars at all.
Abraham was telling the Egyptians they were entirely wrong. Stars seen in the sky are Not heavenly beings and never were! the Egyptians got this idea all wrong!
God said, Moses you are my child, you are my star (my son) reflecting my love and my light! Not Pluto or Saturn or the physical moon. Man himself is my son, my own spirit reflection. BYU is trying to combine the physical cosmos into the book of Abraham by blindly integrating physical planets into the same subject matter as the priesthood hierarchy, they try to run it all together as a metaphoric type to please the Egyptians when these sky bodies are totally disconnected and not priesthood metaphors at all.
That's why many do not understand why facsimile two is a spiritual clock keeping earthly time for the birthright stars in God's real plan for marking his seasonal covenant path to Christ. Abraham was NOT trying to agree with the Egyptian Idolatry by using a pagan cosmology to measure time, as BYU scholars have all assumed. Instead, Abraham was teaching the exact opposite. That's why the Egyptians tried to kill Abraham on the altar. He told them they're cosmology was all wrong.
This is not just my theory at all, this is what the Book of Abraham clearly says n Abraham 3:4! God tells Abraham to teach the Egyptians why this was all about Abrahams posterity (children of God) being as NUMEROUS as the stars, not that they were just like stars at all. Cosmology and Egyptian astronomy was not what Abraham taught the Egyptians. God clearly tells Abraham to teach the Egyptians about his posterity as the subject. Getting into any explanation of modern or ancient cosmology causes people to question Gods revelation as bad science when the subject is clearly about priesthood hierarchy. We must carefully pay attention to context before making such assumptions when people leave the church. See my Abraham video part 9.
Very well put by describing Kolob with these stars as spiritual beings only, instead of getting side tracked into explaining the science of cosmology. True, there is simply not enough time in one lesson to get into Joseph Smith's listing of the 7 stars and all of the Hebrew names in the books numbered sequences. Nor explain the 7 stars on the Salt lake temple! Abraham starts with Adam and Noah as he clocks out the 7 greater biblical stars of the priesthood as birthright sons all adding up to Joseph Smith in the 7th dispensation.
Those same 7 birthright stars reach from Adam and then to Noah eventually to J. Smith. Each star (prophet) is timed exactly with the exact time of each birthright son as listed in order using Abraham's birthright numbers in the book of Abraham. A priesthood path of living souls and not a lifeless path of gases and space rocks. See my newest UA-cam titled "Book of Abraham part 13" then watch his part 9 video to properly work Abrahams exact math. Part 13 by me.
Another Joe is presently giving Smith a run for his money.
@@Mythologos You don’t get what’s happening do you? Gregersen has already been front page of the Salt lake tribune. He has challenged all Christians to debunk his book of Abraham discovery that no one including the above guy dare challenge. He is claiming he has just solved the worlds greatest Bible mystery the mark of the beast 666. He is offering 5,000 dollars for the one who can disprove his video. If someone doesn’t stop him soon he’s going to announce world wide that he has proved Joseph Smith Gods prophet from the Bible alone. If no Christian can stop him he will announce all religions wrong using the Bible to prove it. Thousands are watching his video but no Christian can stop him yet. Tell everybody they need to stop this guy before he proves Mormonism true world wide in the media. His video titled “Book of Abraham part 9” and his other video LDS transaction law suit part 3 where he offers 5,000 dollars to stop him. Let’s get this guy stopped and collect the money before it’s too late and he goes to the national media.
@@noramaecraig8019 really?
Signs of a conman
It's unfortunate how much time must be spent pointing out all the lies, omissions, and faulty logic in LDS apologist writings. The LDS tactic is simply to keep spamming BS faster than actual academics can point out its flaws. The LDS faithful are content to know apologist writings exist, without bothering to critically examine them. Thank you Dan Vogel for spending your time fighting all the LDS BS.
Over on the MAD (Mormon Discussion and Dialogue) board they have a long thread on the BOA. I mentioned Dan's video and got a hugely negative reaction. There seems to be a a dispute of ways of defending the BOA between Robert Smith and Ed Goble. Goble writes "You say that you don't see any apologetic value in my writings. I'll explain to you its value. What do apologists care about? Do they care about truth? Or do they only care about winning? Do they care about evidence, or do they only care about preservation of faith at any cost? I care about an explanation that explains the evidence in such a way that Joseph Smith still produced and transferred information from the ancient world, yet also something that actually explains the evidence as it is"
Of course Dan would be viewed negatively on MAD. Dan actually does the research and presents the findings. He is telling and presenting the truth. Whereas the apologists, Robert Smith and Ed Goble are actually hurting the Church by presenting false arguments about the BOA. Lying for the Lord is not popular any more.
VidsLive To be fair, the same thing can be said about all theist apologists across all religions from mainstream Christianity to Islam, Hindu, and every other supernatural beliefs I have ever seen. Interestingly, the same applies to things like the UFO community, alternative medicine proponents, crop circles, climate change denial, anti-vaccinationism, and all manner of conspiracy theories from moon landings to so-called 'new physics' that overturns Einstein.
There seems to be a strong current in humanity to believe stories from passionate individuals without questioning details so long as the story is told with apparent conviction. It means that con-men and the mentally ill gain followers despite obvious fraud and illogical or irrational reasoning and a lack of objective evidence. All too often, once entrenched, as with Mormonism, subsequent leaders become emotionally invested, and benefit financially and socially to the point where no matter how much evidence against the belief arises, they will contort reason to absurd lengths to defend the indefensible.
NONE of the sacred Mormon (LDS) scripture has ever been proven fraudulent. As the Book of Mormon has yet to have been proven as fraudulent, ua-cam.com/video/3bm6Npd1Hjw/v-deo.html DEBUNKED ALL ANTI-BOOK OF ABRAHAM INFO (books, websites, You Tube videos) from the Egyptologist's and the anti-Mormon Christians, PROVED it STUPID too. The anti-Mormons and the Egyptologist's have been PROVEN STUPID, that is. Basically you cannot possibly investigate the Mormon persuasion (Jesus Christ) thoroughly, then turn around and say that it's not true.
I just tried with a moron deflect deflect deflect was all I got. Strange how Moron is Morman minus an M.
Blame it on the 'associates'! do the apologists REALLY believe that Joseph Smith didn't have complete control over what his scribes wrote?
Amen!!!!
I've come to learn that it's only the apologize I thought it was just more honest I'm in general but I'm glad I I guessed incorrectly because that just confirm my suspicions but whatever I'm glad I only know it was being moron apologists who basically are the ones who commit gaslighting because that's the only defense they have is just admitting defeat and insane reality doesn't exist which is utterly shooting themselves in the foot when they think they know things like don't know really anything at all the moment you see them Gaslight you know that you won they have to lie lie and Ultra lie just to even have themselves look at nicely even though they've lost long ago
After being a member for over 40 years, when I first began questioning the truth claims of the Mormon church, the one thing that really pushed me away the furthest was apologists' explanations of obvious inconsistencies as well as outright lies about Joseph Smith's 'translations' and his concurrent practice and denial of polygamy. They had to stretch the truth so much that it convinced me that no church that had to go that far in rationalizing the obvious could be "true". I appreciate your videos and the light they shed on the murky shadows of Mormonism. I look forward to Part 2.
Dear deskjockie49 --- a shame you can't have a direct chat with "Blaine Heggie" who also wrote a comment the day you did. However, he says this video strengthened his belief in Mormonism! I cannot figure that one out, when ALL the evidence is so clearly against the "Book of Abraham". Not only is the "translation" completely wrong (as confirmed by leading archaeologists and linguists), but the papyri on which the images and writing appear is about two thousand years old, whereas Abraham lived about FOUR thousand years ago... this fact alone proves the "Book of Abraham" to be 100% fraud. That's a CASE CLOSED situation !
One further comment, if I may: Those defending the Book of Abraham, in fact most LDS apologists, propose that Joseph Smith just used the papyri as INSPIRATION for the Book of Abraham. In other words, they maintain that it is not a literal translation of the papyri, that the BoA was revealed to him divinely and was not a literal translation from the papyri.
There is a MAJOR flaw in this, however! Joseph Smith himself ruled out the "inspiration" argument when he wrote in his journal:
“This afternoon labored on the Egyptan alphabet, in company with brsr. O. Cowdery, and W.W.Phelps…”
Also, he said he was “translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients.”
It is clear that Joseph Smith was attempting a LITERAL TRANSLATION from the papyri, and after noting that numerous leading Egyptologists agree that the Book of Abraham is NOT a translation of the papyri, it is obvious that Smith's "translation" was completely bogus, purely a fraud.
According to Joseph Smith, the papyri begins with the words “In the Land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my father, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence...” (BoA 1:1). IN REALITY, however, the hieroglyphics translate: “Osiris shall be conveyed into the Great Pool of Khons - and likewise Osiris Hor, justified, born to Tikhebyt, justified - after his arms have been placed on his heart and the breathing permit (which [Isis] made...”
The papyri comprise a well-known funerary text, familiar to Egyptologists, and very commonly found. It is in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
Please refer: yhvh.name/?w=1174
www.conchisle.com/pg.htm
coldcasechristianity.com/2014/how-the-book-of-abraham-exposes-the-false-nature-of-mormonism/
I hope this is helpful. Best wishes to all. #
You already know deskjockie49 know about Paul Gregersen debunking the god awful rotten damned arrogant Egyptologist's!
Yes, Richard, I know about Paul Gregersen's attempt to "debunk" the scholarly Egyptologists. Paul's personal interpretation of the ENCRYPTED (his word) BoA says that we need his "mathematical formulas" and "computer codes" in order to interpret it. I have already responded at length to his 'debunking" in the comments below his videos, so you may read my full response there.
The only way "Blaine Heggie" could have his 'testimony' strengthened by Dan's video is if he considers any and all criticism of it as being somehow a testimonial of its truthfulness. He might learn something about his 'testimony' by watching Chris Johnson's video "Follow the Spirit" at ua-cam.com/video/ycUvC9s4VYA/v-deo.html
@deskjockie49 ''so you may read my full response there.'' You haven't either!
Something I don't understand: The LDS church has living, breathing apostles, who reportedly seen Jesus and receive revelation directly from God. So why would they have any need for "apologists"? "Well you see, it could have been this" or "It might have been such-and-such..." Why don't the prophets simply ask God himself EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED? Who did what and when? Surely he knows, right?
That is the weakest false arguing ever is that just reading off a manual with no argument that has no power it's a meaningless statement there any church can claim to have Apostles or prophets they're not prophets any regular preacher is more profit than Smith could ever dream of being
They don't know God they hate God God doesn't listen to them because they blasphemed him too many times just like Smith did and those that tried and actually did left the cult quickly if they heard him and didn't listen they're cursed even more so we do know for a fact that we know everything about this Colt their leaders are possessed by Devils their Khan frauds Who Don't Do Anything they're not just as bad as the pope a lot of ways they're worse than the Pope this is a government satanic cult organization Jehovah's Witnesses they fraud people but not anymore
@@truthgiverandfinder3246 I don't think you understood my comment, which was intended to be a little sarcastic, like when Elijah asked the "prophets" of Baal where their god was...sleeping, on a journey, going potty? I was questioning Mormon apologists, not approving of them.
Notice I said "reportedly." Perhaps I should have placed scare quotes around apostles. I don't believe the LDS church's "apostles" are real, valid apostles, either.
And you are right, the LDS church is a cult, plain and simple. They teach "another gospel," ergo, false.
Have a blessed day!
@@jonhilderbrand4615 worse than that they don't apologize for the racism and false history they said against Native Americans they don't apologize for doing a cold practices against dead people as well as other things they don't apologize for blasphemy at least they do now they don't apologize for racism still their entire leaders are Anglo-Saxon White they don't stop gaslighting so why should we feel sorry for that we just Gaslight them right back and kill them
@@jonhilderbrand4615 there's a huge difference between being nice and forgiving and then holding about a standard and when they break that then you can't be forgiving anymore you got to take action and punish them I mean if you have to kill them not literally but kill their arguments and kill them psychologically and kill their life ruin their life they've been truly in more than one way do it don't think twice just do it
I love how thorough your videos are, I've watched and shared them all many times.
Have you shared that the Egyptologists were debunked by Paul Gregersen?
You are barking up the wrong tree by trying to argue with John Gee. Dr Gee obviously didn't pay attention to what the Book of Abraham declared any more than you nor Mr. Osborne. We have been carefully watching Paul Gregesens video part 15. Paul has clearly demonstrated from the text itself what all of you obviously missed. In his new video he points out where Abraham was commanded to teach the Egyptians about a Hebrew astronomy ALONE! It says right in the text why the astronomy itself was nothing but an object lesson to teach the Egyptians about Abrahams family which was Israel. In other words, nothing in the entire Book of Abraham was claiming Egyptian anything unless it was counterfeiting Noah. Chapter one clearly says anything Egyptian was pure Idolatry! WHY DO YOU GUYS, ALONG WITH DR. GEE, AND OTHERS IGNORE THIS TEXTUAL FACT?
What this means is this, trying to show discrepancies about Joseph Smith getting anything Egyptian wrong is ridiculous and a complete waist of everyone's time! The text clearly says God told Abraham to teach about Abrahams posterity ALONE!.
Cant any of you guys read? watch Gregersen's newest video through, its right in front of your face!
Joseph Smith said he only added the facsimiles to the Book of Abraham in order to demonstrate how false gods are fashioned. "Abraham 1:14" Egyptians counterfeiting Gospel truths in order to alter everyone's true understanding. See Abraham chapter one. In other words all Smith was doing is reversing what the Egyptians counterfeited and got wrong back into what God intended. God told him to only teach the Egyptians about his seed which is Israel.
Trying to find parallels to Abraham in order to prove how Smith knew nothing about Egyptian by digging up copied similar sources is simply pure speculation without any real evidence. Harold Bloom the famous Jewish Scholar said it was an impossibility that Smith could have copied names and places that were discovered in the dead sea scrolls over a hundred years later. likewise Oleshem is documented name today that no living scholar knew of in 1840. The Book of the giants discovered in the dead sea scrolls document that Smith knew of many things in the Book of Enoch that no man on earth had yet discovered until the dead sea scrolls.
The critics all ignore these real LIVING facts.
The story about Ahijah is only one of many impossibilities that not only identified an exact characters ancient name but even described the very role he played in Enoch's life story. Joseph Smith obviously wasn't just making things up just because Osborne spends years of his life searching for any long shot similarity that he can discover just so he can call it a perfect match! All yellow journalists do that same thing everyday and always call it truth. Gregersen has connected the real Abraham story by contrasting the Egyptian falsehoods with Hebrew outcomes using exact mathematical connections that cannot be shown to be manipulated. He has demonstrated it to correlate the very same matched history as we see in Daniel chapter two and in Revelation 13:18. The same 666 combines into two separate timelines without a heart beat of deceptive ways to achieve it. GREGERSEN HAS DESTROYED DAN VOGELS THEORIES BY DEMONSTRATING EXACTLY WHY THEIR HAD TO BE A LONG SCROLL.
Thanks for research Dan. The late Robert Ritner, Egyptologist, was commissioned to research the Facsimiles in the Book of Abraham. I'm no expert on matters of Egyptology but with enough knowledge to recognise from first sighting of Facsimile 1, something was very wrong. Anubis is on the left of the papyri and the priest on the lion's couch is not Abraham. The Church knows this, but continues to cover up in one way or another.
No, dan Voigel is using slight of hand like Hudini. After watching the new video part Abraham 9 by Gregersen and then watching part 15 also..I am compelled by the Bible alone to determine that this guy Gregersen is light years ahead of Vogel and showing us straight biblical truth and not some delusion. Didn't Jesus say that his way would be a straight and narrow path and few would even find it? The way that the Bible identifies the house of Joseph alone to gather the church for Christ perfectly fits all the Bible prophecies while all other churches totally ignore this fact in their Bible. The way these other churches lie about Joseph Smith was shocking to me when I watched Paul's video titled "LDS transaction law suits" He proved to me why and how the lies against Smith were engineered and then exposed in a real court case. Why the all out effort to destroy this church on line? Why not be far more upset about truly dangerous religions like extreme Islam or the really dangerous cults out there? The fact that Gregersen solved the biggest Bible mystery on this earth called 666 is jaw dropping. What he shows in this video regardless of why this obviously is not some professional million dollar production, it all comes straight from the Bible itself and makes far more sense than any other Christian church on this important end times prophecy. Man tries to explain it his way always first and then in the end God shows us how his understanding is far superior. Prove it yourself! ua-cam.com/video/qQkeXB4qisg/v-deo.html Then see how Dan Vogel has tricked you.ua-cam.com/video/-ZCk6jX1CIY/v-deo.html
I'm curious, I know Robert mentioned being recruited by evangelicals, presumably IRR, but when you "commissioned" do you mean someone else, or the same?
Next time you meet up with a Mormon missionary, ask him or her about the Book of Abraham.
Lucky for them and lucky for you is they're easy targets to free because they don't know anything about their Colt oven at the same fake manual dialogue that their cult teaches them to pray about a frog book of moron which is been proven false millions of times the only argument from what I've heard and learned is that they said they pray and they don't know how to pray they say the pom which is a fake they never really read themselves false testimony that's not testimony at all or even worthy of the word testimony even in a fake sense.
We need to do is just tell about how fraudulent the vom is when you break their bom satanic false idol and how and how Smith and general with a Satanist and how the real Jesus Christ is against it and warned about cults like Mormonism that their satanic hellish lies from hell they usually leave or some of them will break down and repent right before you but really your best chances really not just for the kids though it's good that tack Olympic could stop their lives but it's really good as to go to the higher-ups of their cult like their stupid Bishops or their head leads in Utah in the Provo area where the Mormons had to retreat to because a lot of non Mos mostly taken over Salt Lake City thank you Jesus for that and thank Lord for that
Good quality scholarship. Thank you
Thank you so much, Dan, for your hard work.
After watching this video part 9 and then watching part 15 also..I am compelled by the Bible alone to determine that this guy is showing us straight biblical truth and not some delusion. Didn't Jesus say that his way would be a straight and narrow path and few would even find it? The way that the Bible identifies the house of Joseph alone to gather the church for Christ perfectly fits all the Bible prophecies while all other churches totally ignore this fact in their Bible. The way these other churches lie about Joseph Smith was shocking to me when I watched Pauls video titled "LDS transaction law suits" He proved to me why and how the lies against Smith were engineered and then exposed in a real court case. Why the all out effort to destroy this church on line? Why not be far more upset about truly dangerous religions like extreme Islam or the really dangerous cults out there? The fact that Gregersen solved the biggest Bible mystery on this earth called 666 is jaw dropping. What he shows in this video regardless of why this obviously is not some professional million dollar production, it all comes straight from the Bible itself and makes far more sense than any other Christian church on this important end times prophecy. Man tries to explain it his way always first and then in the end God shows us how his understanding is far superior. Prove it yourself! ua-cam.com/video/qQkeXB4qisg/v-deo.html Then see how Dan Vogel has tricked you.ua-cam.com/video/-ZCk6jX1CIY/v-deo.html
1965 the Mormon church was presented with the actual manuscripts that Joseph Smith use to translate the "Pearl of Great Price." That manuscript was presented by the Museum of Modern Art in New York. The Mormon church hail it as a great discovery. And the Mormon church put one of their greatest scholar in Eygyptology Professor Dee Jay Nelson. Professor Nelson was designated by the head of the church to translate it. He eagerly took the manuscripts which contained the Book of Abraham, and proceeded to translate it. When he finished his translation. He contacted the president of the Mormon church and said, "we have a problem.." president of the Mormon church wanted to know what the problem was. Dr. Nelson said: "the problem is that what Joseph Smith says, is entirely different than what the manuscripts says are two different things." He summited to different eygyptologist, they studied it, and came back with it and said the same thing. Then Dr. Nelson tried to have it published by the Mormon church. They willfully and deliberately suppressed the manuscripts, they will not let the Mormon people see it. And the reason why the Mormon church won't let them see it is in Professor Dee Jay Nelson's letter of resignation from the Mormon church.
"I, Dee Jay Nelson, do hereby renounced and relinquish the priesthood which I now hold following my translation (the first to be published) of the bulk of the hieratic and hieroglyphic Egyptian texts upon the Metropolitan-Joesph Smith papyri fragments three of the most eminent Egyptolgist now living published corroborating translations. These amply prove the fraudulent nature of the Book of Abraham, in which lies unjust assertion that Negros are unworthy of participation in the highest privileges of the LDS church.
We do not wish to be associated with a religious organization which teaches lies and adheres to policies so blatantly opposed to the civil and religious rights of some citizens of the United States.
By affixing our signatures to this document we exercise our constitutional rights of religious freedom and separate ourselves from the church Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints.
Signed:
Dee Jay Nelson
Katherine G. Nelson
Kim Cherie Nelson.
December 8,1975
One word Rosetta Stone 1848
Do you believe that the Egyptologists were actually right? The Egyptological assessment crap was debunked back in 2014.
@@richardholmes7199 'the book of abraham' is completely fraudulent and was created based on a terrible translation (KJV bible) of the Torah. Unless the magic stones translate things as terribly as the Greeks and the Romans did it pretty much shows that it's garbage. Not to mention the Kinderhook plates being an admitted hoax to make fun of child sex predator Joe smith
@@richardholmes7199 Not to mention that modern egyptologists also claim it's complete nonsense 😂
@@areafifty HAHAHAHA, priceless. It appears that you're one of them who are unintelligent enough to have thought the translation of the Book of Abraham Egyptian documents from Joseph Smith was supposed to be seen as being translated the way the Egyptologists say. Mormons and Catholics have their own individuality, do you? Of course you don't. As you're GULLIBLE enough to have trusted the Egyptologists.
@@areafifty The translation/explanation of the Egyptian papyri from Joseph Smith was never supposed to be seen as being translated the same way the Egyptologists say. This IS what DEBUNKED the EGYPTOLOGISTS.
The Book of Abraham was what pushed me over the cliff and I could no longer accepted the LDS church's claims. I saw the new guy on the block Smoot do an unconvincing review of Gee's introduction to the BOA in the Interpreter. I wonder when he gets his PHd from the University of Toronto he will end up employed in the Religious Education Dept of BYU like the others. Dr Ritner might find him employment :) .
I think JS's "inspired version" of the bible probably tops even the risible BoA.
The LDS organization has been doing a most effective job in hiding the JS bible: probably less than 10% of Mormons are aware of it, and the fact that JS inserted himself in Genesis and Isaiah ! Of course, the JS bible is NOT used by the LDS organization (they offer various flimsy excuses) but it would be interesting to see an analysis of it online. Best wishes.
ua-cam.com/video/IYwrQxuX4l4/v-deo.html
I remember reading COCHistorian Richard Howard's book Restoration Scriptures where he had photo's of the inspired version. It seems Smith tired sometimes on the whole project and pronounced certain books as "correct" I remember reading in Jonah where it talked about God repenting of what he would do. I do think he thought of "repent" as a mistranslated word. However modern translations correct it to mean relented or changed his mind.
.
I know a bit about Smoot. He is a Masters student and too immature to offer anything substantial to Mormon studies. He is a Dan Peterson disciple, including petulent and condescending behavior to those he disagrees with. Not worth getting tied up about, or giving credit to.
Noel Hausler the BoA is definitely one of my top five reasons why I can not believe in the LDS Church.
i wonder if there is one in print today or can be put into print so the world can see his flatulent writing style
Continue to be amazed at Vogel's scholarly work.
?
Richard Holmes
Is a pendejo
@@richardholmes7199 ?
There's a great book by an LDS author that shows that there is perfect harmony between the prophetic statements concerning the garden of Eden being in Missouri and the Old Testament account concerning the garden of Eden. It's called Canaan, Babylon, and Egypt A Comparative Theological Analysis on Creation sold by Eborn Books.
Reformed Egyptian, indeed.
Hey Dan, Another bit of evidence that the book of mormon is fake is that it uses names like Abraham. Abraham is a Greek term derived from the name he would have actually used which is spelled Avraham, and pronounced Ah-braw-hawm. Pretty much all of the biblical names used in the BOM are greek translations of the actual names, which is mighty coincidental considering that the entire BOM was supposed to have taken place before the Greek translation of the Torah ever happened
You're right and it also uses mistranslations from the KJV 1700 which is more fake than the 1611 and it works like it's some kind of like crappy fiction
Because it is a crappy fiction
New apologist if there is even apologist and none of them can get out of it ever nothing they have no standards for reality looks like that in fraud like that then they have to accept anything else that refutes it
There's no v in hebrew it's bet not v but b.
Just like it's waw not vav.
@@truthgiverandfinder3246 I don't know how Abraham pronounced his own name, or if the hard bet or dagesh, or vav etc. even existed, or if he spoke Aramaic, Sumerian, Akkadian, Elamite, or an ancestor of Hebrew, but the thing about the BofM is that it's a translation into scriptural English : )...English didn't really exist during Nephi's time or Abraham's, don't let that affect your judgement of the Bible, BofM, or BofA, continue to humbly seek the Spirit and you'll always find the crucial truths, for you.
Thanks for your work, Dan. You do excellent work.
HOW possibly, possibly logically speaking here on this WHOLE PICTURE, the work from Vogel be any good to begin with? The WAY..............TO................UNDERSTAND...............THE............SIMPLE........TRANSLATION.................PROCESS of the Book of Abraham has been covered by Paul Gregersen since the YEAR 2014, why are you still even here?
@@richardholmes7199 I've watched your brilliant friend, and his ridiculous video. Richard, you're on a sinking ship, your religion is a fraud, your god is a joke, and your tithing goes towards a $130 billion dollar savings account. You have no understanding of logic, syllogisms, fallacies, or reasonable thought.
@@RB-zh1eq ''I've watched your brilliant friend, and his ridiculous video.'' How is Paul Gregersen wrong on his pro-Book of Abraham video?
@@richardholmes7199 give it a rest. You have been bamboozled.
To be LDS, you really have to have countless explanations for your faith. You have to come up with some ridiculous way to define what was meant by words/phrases like translation, by his own hand upon the papyrus, etc. All of this to keep your faith alive so that you don't have to leave the church and lose family, friends and business contacts. This whole thing was set up to keep people under the thumbs of the church presidents. Just get out and get free in Christ alone.
You couldn't possibly believe in Christ and support the above anti-Mormon atheist Dan Vogel.
Bit like the bible
Mean countless amount of excuses are gaslighting or repeated rhetoric that their cult members make up on the spot and think they're not going to get caught on and then when they get caught they have to make up another excuse and then when you can have someone there they have to lie so when you catch them in so many lies they can't stop lying there know what reality is anymore the only thing they have is just gaslighting excuses they don't want to live in reality they like being mentally wrong and just see they don't like the fact that Smith was a fraud and a liar and has been exposed as such extremely so in the least.
@@richardholmes7199 yes you absolutely can't believe in Christ and the anti moron because crisis anti moron he's anti fake Colts that mimic him and mock him by Satan's ways Antichrist you can't be more on without being Antichrist dumbass so your habit your whole world upside down exactly what the devil it says ignore the Bible ignore honesty ignore facts Lisa teneyck Liza faked it play the bait and switch deception I don't question whenever you realize something's wrong everything about that over proves you're in a satanic cult as well as many lots of other things
@@richardholmes7199 a dumbass you're an atheist too if you think Jehovah Fatherly was a man from another planet and not a God at a man can be like a god which is absolutely Ally and a satanic deception and blasphemy exactly what Satan wants you to do what got him kicked out of heaven and out of the Garden of Eden was rebelling against he that is a God when mortals no matter what or who try to challenge him.
I grew up in Southern Alberta Canada where the Mormons have a very large presence. It didnt take me long to realize that behind their smiles and politeness was a smug condescending elitism that bordered on discrimination towards non Mormons. And I saw that discrimination manifest when slowly but surely one position at a time the Mormons took over the Board of Education of the county, that is, they finally got the veto vote on the board and then gone was the smiles. By the time I reached my final grade in high school 7/8 of my teachers were Mormons and there was such blatant favoritism of those teachers towards mormon pupils it was outrageous. But the worse part was when my mother - also a teacher in town at the junior high school, in response to a national magazine's big "expose" of unwanted teenage pregnancies in rural Canada, listed my county in 2nd place of having the most such pregnancies in the country, developed a short 2 hr birth control workshop and introduced it at the junior high one year. The Mormon controlled County Board of Education fired my mother immediately; 2 years short of the years required to get her teacher's pension. Replaced her with a Mormon of course. And those unwanted teenage pregnancies? The vast majority were Mormon girls who would suddenly vanish half way thru the school year; never or rarely to be seen again in the county - so much so that by that final year in high school - boys outnumbered girls by 3 to 1. The financial stress wrecked upon my family by the Mormons firing my mother was significant and as financial stress often does lead to my final year in that small town having to see and hear terrible fights between my parents. It was awful. And I have never forgiven the Mormons ever since. Whenever a Mormon missionary comes to my door I dont hear a word they say - I instantly hear my parents fighting as clear as i fwas 17 years old again in my bedroom in that small town in southern Alberta. If i have any isms surely its anti-Mormonism and that is an ism I will always have towards that cult.
Sad story. Which town were you in? You can probably guess from my name which town I am from.
To be a mormon, you must toss logic and reason and facts out the window
David Westhoff, most Mormons have been raised in the church and have not had much exposure to outside religious ideas. Most Mormons are unaware of the controversy over the Book of Abraham. The fact that the JS papyri are actually ordinary Egyptian funeral texts is not something which is generally taught in LDS churches. The information is available, but you have to look for it. Even for those that do know about it, they may accept the Hugh Nibley explanation. Doing otherwise might result in having to rethink their entire worldview. That's harder work than most people are willing to do. Other religions are no different. The research I've seen says that about 11 out of every 12 people end up following the religion of their parents.
You have to toss Christ out the window you got to toss honesty out the window and just hug the devil and get a big victory high five to Satan. And have a veil on the entire time thinking you know things you don't know anything Smith amazingly says things that actually apply to him only and truth and his cult when he was in fact basically had a veil on and he could not see and purposely put it on and pretend it didn't exist
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 other religions are not the same they're very different other religions allow you to question and test and they are religions like example the Catholic church with its candles at least doesn't say it's part of their Doctrine they don't have Founders who were satanic luciferian fraudsters and Freemasons and devil worshippers and a cultists and idolaters self idolatrous blasphemers and racist fanfiction fairy tale writers like Smith who made up the vom fraud and other satanic shouldn't really sinful and evil and blast mist and hellish
You are barking up the wrong tree by trying to argue with John Gee. Dr Gee obviously didn't pay attention to what the Book of Abraham declared any more than you nor Mr. Osborne. We have been carefully watching Paul Gregesens video part 15. Paul has clearly demonstrated from the text itself what all of you obviously missed. In his new video he points out where Abraham was commanded to teach the Egyptians about a Hebrew astronomy ALONE! It says right in the text why the astronomy itself was nothing but an object lesson to teach the Egyptians about Abrahams family which was Israel. In other words, nothing in the entire Book of Abraham was claiming Egyptian anything unless it was counterfeiting Noah. Chapter one clearly says anything Egyptian was pure Idolatry! WHY DO YOU GUYS, ALONG WITH DR. GEE, AND OTHERS IGNORE THIS TEXTUAL FACT?
What this means is this, trying to show discrepancies about Joseph Smith getting anything Egyptian wrong is ridiculous and a complete waist of everyone's time! The text clearly says God told Abraham to teach about Abrahams posterity ALONE!.
Cant any of you guys read? watch Gregersen's newest video through, its right in front of your face!
Joseph Smith said he only added the facsimiles to the Book of Abraham in order to demonstrate how false gods are fashioned. "Abraham 1:14" Egyptians counterfeiting Gospel truths in order to alter everyone's true understanding. See Abraham chapter one. In other words all Smith was doing is reversing what the Egyptians counterfeited and got wrong back into what God intended. God told him to only teach the Egyptians about his seed which is Israel.
Trying to find parallels to Abraham in order to prove how Smith knew nothing about Egyptian by digging up copied similar sources is simply pure speculation without any real evidence. Harold Bloom the famous Jewish Scholar said it was an impossibility that Smith could have copied names and places that were discovered in the dead sea scrolls over a hundred years later. likewise Oleshem is documented name today that no living scholar knew of in 1840. The Book of the giants discovered in the dead sea scrolls document that Smith knew of many things in the Book of Enoch that no man on earth had yet discovered until the dead sea scrolls.
The critics all ignore these real LIVING facts.
The story about Ahijah is only one of many impossibilities that not only identified an exact characters ancient name but even described the very role he played in Enoch's life story. Joseph Smith obviously wasn't just making things up just because Osborne spends years of his life searching for any long shot similarity that he can discover just so he can call it a perfect match! All yellow journalists do that same thing everyday and always call it truth. Gregersen has connected the real Abraham story by contrasting the Egyptian falsehoods with Hebrew outcomes using exact mathematical connections that cannot be shown to be manipulated. He has demonstrated it to correlate the very same matched history as we see in Daniel chapter two and in Revelation 13:18. The same 666 combines into two separate timelines without a heart beat of deceptive ways to achieve it. GREGERSEN HAS DESTROYED DAN VOGELS THEORIES BY DEMONSTRATING EXACTLY WHY THEIR HAD TO BE A LONG SCROLL.
I'm a huge fan of your videos. Thank you for the work you continue to do.
Dishonest work you mean.
Vogel is dishonest. As he has a You Tube video where he is trying to convince people to believe that the church isn't true by saying that there were no Methodist revivals in Palmyra in 1820. Now Google ''Answering the CES Letter/The First Vision part 2 You Tube''. That You Tube video shows that there were revivals though. Vogel said that there weren't.
Richard Holmes actually even LDS historians agree that there were no revivals in that area between 1817 and 1823. How does that make Vogal a liar?
I'ts clearly covered on that video that there were revivals.
Richard, did you listen to any of this, or do you just troll videos that don't agree with your presumptions? Please just go to Mormon Think, or the LDS website, and stay there. You have nothing to offer of any value. All you do is comment that people who don't believe are bigots, are inconsiderate, and make all sorts of ad hominem attacks that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. Go away, pay your tithing, pray to your imaginary friend, and let people who value truth enjoy these videos. Look up Dunning Krueger. that's you.
yay! a new Dan Vogel video!
Vogel is a LIAR! I can prove it, care to hear?
Richard Holmes no, thank you, but I definitely respect you for asking first 😊
@@richardholmes7199 yes I do.
So good to see you again man! I'm SO PUMPED to watch more of your videos!
I think brother Jake and Dan Vogel are doing some excellent work.
noel Dan Vogel is an atheist
Outstanding discussion of the papers, manuscripts, and evidences we have on this entirely fascinating era of church history and document translations of the papyri and Joseph Smith dictating! I really wish I had watched this FIRST before starting my own series of The Backyard Professor Live on "Getting Clear on the Joseph Smith Papyri." It is with deep gratification though, that I am finding independently the same conclusions you are, even though your depth is unparalleled! That is extremely FUN and PLEASING to know independently of watching you, I am reading the evidence in much the same way. Just WOW...
Thanks for your comments BYP. Love watching you present good information in a different way. Keep it up.
Hi BYP, so have you come to the conclusion that Abr. 1:1-3 was translated before work on the GAEL began? Or is it reliant upon the GAEL in your opinion, or something else? Of course, there's no such thing as simultaneous when both are in the handwriting of Phelps... Thanks in advance, I'm just confused, so I ask, Ritner seems unclear on this, if I remember correctly, Dan seems to think the text was first...some still seem to believe the GAEL was a translation tool...
I'm always amazed at the critical details you uncover in your research. Well done as always, Dan.
He has nothing to bring to the table.
You should know about it being someones nap time.
The details that DEBUNKS THE CRAP Dan is presenting can be found in the video ua-cam.com/video/3bm6Npd1Hjw/v-deo.html It's titled ''Book of Abraham debunks anti-LDS lies''.
So true Steve. It's stunning the eye for detail that Vogel has.
Too bad Otteson that Dan is off base.
He made it all up. This is proof that he did.
thanks for this i have been going through this with family members, i quit the church when i was 14 years old and now i am 53 and i would like to see the church crash and burn in my lifetime
sourpus
I’m 53 as well. How fortunate you were able to leave the church at 14. I stopped believing in my early 30’s, thanks to the Internet. Well, in my case they would say better late than never.
Paul Gregersen debunked the info on the above You Tube video Agrippa The Mighty!
Richard Holmes I assume you’re faithful LDS member. Before we discuss the veracity of the church and of the BoA, you ought to answer the following: Say, how do you know your church is true? Is it through the witness of the Holy Spirit? Other religions also have this method. How do you know yours is right but others are wrong?
The video ua-cam.com/video/3bm6Npd1Hjw/v-deo.html DEBUNKS THE ABOVE VIDEO.
The bit about the New England accent of Joseph Smith at 30.40 is an amazing find.
If the Church can ever get past the claims of literal translation is it too generous to place the Book of Abraham in a tradition similar to that of the Jewish midrash?
It doesn't cuz it just like the regular Bible at Genesis Abraham never did any such thing as Abraham went to Egypt and there was touched by Egyptians but he actually touched Egyptians in other words he took advantage of them not the other way around as is clear Smith is making that up and Truth Abraham as always he came to Egypt and he let his wife Sarah get taken by the Pharaoh and then get played and then he left Egypt so in truth he took advantage of the Egyptians not the other way around as is the only is. Midrash and other traditions and bible all over prove the opposite the only thing that's real with Abraham Egypt wise. Again they had to take Smith at his word for instead of testing him and challenging him and refusing him know they had to take him at his word once again this proves Mormons are a satanic luciferian liars and only thing they can do is Gaslight that's their only "defense" and it's not a defense at all.
fantastic work dan!
You're pretty dishonest, aren't you?
Richard Holmes - what do you mean?
It's just that I'm surprised that with as good as your Book of Abraham video is that you'd tell Vogel ''fantastic work''. Your video in just 18 minutes refutes Vogel's above video.
@Ralph Wiggam Well now if it ain't none other than the LIAR! You go around and spread LIES about the church, then say that you used to be in the church to make the LIES more believable.
Dan Vogel said on one of his videos that there were no revivals in Palmyra in 1820. Though if you Google ''Answering the CES Letter the first vision 22 to 23 part 2'' you'll clearly see that there indeed were revivals in Palmyra in 1820.
Dan, I love your videos. May I provide some constructive criticism? Lower your voice register and add voice inflection.
Are you even remotely aware that that anti-Book of Abraham assessment information from Robert Ritner has been proven as stupid as hell?
It would have be /wa.t@`/ (err, not ah) in the example you gave. When non-rhotic accents repair the loss of @` sounds, they do it always before a vowel sound. So "The waters flow south" = /T@"wa.t@z"floU"saUT/ "the watuhz flow south" but "The water is cold" /T@"wa.t@`.r\Iz"ko5d/ "the watuh-r-is cold"
Once again a superbly researched video by Mr Vogel.
love these videos. so good. thank you for making them
Excellent work. I did not need this much detail to know Joseph was a fraud. Still, I enjoy your videos with all the in-depth analysis. Thanks Dan
Vogel is dishonest.
Richard Holmes i guess you must be LDS and see Joseph as. Anointed Prophet who was full of truth. Leave the messenger be, Joseph’s history and his personal conduct speak for itself.
None of the sacred Mormon scripture has even been proven as fraudulent.
Richard Holmes I joined the LDS in 1991 and spent years in the church, family in the church and missions. I left for many reasons, any of them being worthy on their own. I love Mormon people but Dan has open mind, and sounds more truthful than any condescending “Apostle” I have ever heard in the LDS. Be careful, nothing and no one is beyond questioning. If anyone tells you otherwise they are not true seekers of truth but rather empire builders. Truth can stand on its own from anyone like good math, not just from people who neck deep in the organization. Dan simply points out the countless inconsistencies. I for one appreciate his detailed analysis.
I would not suggest listening to Dan, Dan is dishonest. For example the above video, the above video is BASED ON that Egyptological assessment. The Egyptological assessments are that in order for Joseph Smith to be constituted as a true prophet he would had to have a translation that concurred with the Egyptologist's. HOWEVER it was discovered in 2014 that they were not supposed to concur. This IS what DEBUNKED ALL ANTI-BOOK OF ABRAHAM INFO (books, You Tube videos, websites). ALL anti-Book of Abraham info, such as the above video, is saying that Joseph Smith is a false prophet because he didn't translate the Egyptian the same way that the Egyptologist's say, isn't it? Yes, of course. Thereby automatically ALL ANTI-BOOK OF ABRAHAM INFO DEBUNKED! Debunked because the translation from Joseph Smith was never supposed to concur with the Egyptologist's. The translation from Joseph Smith was never supposed to be translated the same way that the Egyptologist's say, in other words.
Why is it that you all still present the wrong way to interpret this revelation/explanation?
In the meantime, where did they stash "Abraham's mummy"? Sh, don't tell anyone that Abraham died in Hebron. I can't wait for the sequel: Isaac, Son of Abraham.
tell us what "determinative translation" means. It is how Joseph Smith did it.
If I take the characters, papyrus and facsimiles and hand to an egyptologist without mentioning anything about the Church and ask to translate or interpret or explain, will the answer matches what JS claimed to be?
I f you examine carefully, you'll see that we are missing the source : ). So, you can't really hand the source of the text to anyone.
@Joe rephrasing my question. If one present what we have now as source, i.e. facsimiles 1, 2 and 3, to an Egypt scholar and expert without mentioning anything about the Church and ask to explain the figures and translate the text therein, will the answer match the JS translation and interpretation?
If it does, amazing the discovery. If it doesn't, what was the purpose of JS behind this?
@@wagnersilvalds Thanks Wagner, these are important questions. If you examine carefully you'll understand that the vignettes (that became the facsimiles) were repurposed for the BoA. This may have happened anciently, either way, the evidence supports that at least 1&3 were interpreted from the BoA text, and that the official explanations were educated guesses based on text translated starting in 1835. This doesn't determine the truth of the BoA. People have been trying to prove it false and true for nearly 200 years, no scholarship has proven it false. This is amazing and supportive, but the best way to find the truth on religious matters is prayerful inquiry. Or, at least, it seems that's how God wants it. : )
@@Joe-ty2jp "repurposed for the BoA"? "This may have happened anciently" Are you trying to assert the hieroglyphics created during the Ptolemaic era was repurposed from earlier times?
They're well known and common Egyptian funerary texts, with established translations. Any Egyptologist already would be familiar with them (and may have translated them during their studies). Suffice it to say that they have nothing in common with whatever JS claimed them to be. Unfortunately for JS, Egyptian was translated following the discovery of the Rosetta Stone. The irony is that Egyptian would start to be be fully understood right around the time JS wrote his fraud. Champollion produced his first Egyptian grammar in 1836.
So technical and complex that a 'person not intimately familiar with the "Book of Abraham" and the papyrus fragments associated with it that an "ignorant layman: such as myself cannot make head or trail of it,
Are there transcripts of these videos available?
There are the ones that Google generates
The Salt Lake City Spin Doctors working overtime on this Hindenberg
Hi Dan - love your videos, I watch them during long shifts at work. All the best
Facsimile 1 is not an Egyptian funerary scroll.
Too good to say something serious about it ...
Ed Goble over on the MAD board says "I hate when people do UA-cam videos to push the debate. If it's something new do a quick paper. Put it up on Medium if you don't have a place to publish it. Footnotes, endnotes and so forth are important. Videos are fine for summations of stuff or introductions but lousy for cutting edge stuff. At least give us a transcript." Is there a way we could access at least some footnotes?
16:00 is the greatest point!
Hey Dan, thanks for these informative and detailed videos. One thing I was left wondering about is the dating of the GAEL. Presumably Gee needs the translation manuscripts mostly finished in July 1835 because it's difficult to date the GAEL much later than that. What are the main reasons we can date the GAEL so early that Gee is not even trying to push the date later? I know that joseph's history tells us when he was working on it (starting in July), but I would expect Gee to argue that they only "reverse engineered" the first few verses by then, and finished the rest later. Is the fact that so much of the GAEL is in Phelp's writing a forcing function? Also, why does Gee need the whole BoA to be completed in 1835, rather than just 1-2:18, given the translation manuscripts stop there anyway?
I date the beginning of the GAEL in July 1835 and the end in October, when JS’s journal mentioned the unfolding of the ancient astronomy. Gee wants to date entire translation of Abraham to July 1835 and the GAEL as late as possible, early 1836, so that he can argue that the GAEL was a reverse translation of Abraham.
Excellent as usual
I guess it has to do with do you want to by faith or do you want to disbelieve by signs
I appreciate you so much
Hi Dan, Do you think that Abraham 1:1-3 were originally written down on a nonextant paper, and then later copied into the translation book? or was it dictated right into the translation book?
I'm not sure. It's possible either way. Parrish copied Abraham 1:4-2:6 from previously dictated text, but 2:6-18 appears to have been dictated rather than copied.
@@danvogel6802 Thanks Dan, really appreciate your work.
@@danvogel6802 As I mentioned above, you seem to have changed opinions on Abr. 1:1-3, or perhaps I've never understood; but if Abr. 1:1-3 was translated before the GAEL was created, then the GAEL is clearly reliant upon and reverse translated to the BoA, or do you still believe the GAEL came before all of the extant manuscripts?
@@danvogel6802 And, now you have me thinking again, (I too appreciate all your hard work on the BoA (unlike Dehlin or etc. who seemingly manipulate emotions, you at least provide thoughts and evidence), though you seem headed in the wrong direction)...but, if Abr 1:1-3 in manuscript C is copied, then it's a copy, not an original translation document, and the characters are retrofitted, don't you think?
LOL - how do you get so many words from 1-2 little characters?! Something seems off.
At time 16:28 You say that the JSP excludes the Phelps manuscript, but it is there in Volume 4 on page 218. Am I missing something?
I was talking about vol. 5 of the document series in the JSP. Volume 4 of the Revelations and Translation series came out after I made this video. The point I was making was that the editors chose the Frederick G. Williams document, which begins at Abr. 1:4, as the one of the three Abraham texts to include in that volume. They justified that choice because they concluded that it was the earliest of the three, which I argue is wrong.
The concept of reformed Egyptian just makes me laugh
If Joseph Smith rendered a translation matching the one from that of the arrogant Egyptologists, how could the translation be true? This proves Joseph Smith right, the Egyptologists wrong.
Dude, I hope you wake up. It must be hard for you guys, I can't even imagine how much. My heart goes out to you. If you do snap out of this fraud, don't give up on God. He's out there.
@@fernandez3841 What makes you think that God recognizes you as one of his own?
The facsimiles were called Explanations. Also your information is twisted. I mean you don’t ever finish your work on a single accusation.
Like what?
Whether it is an "explanation" or "translation", it doesn't change the fact that it is wrong. Facsimile #3 clearly shows Egyptian characters and Joseph's "explanation" or "translation" and according to Egyptologists (Mormon or not), is wrong.
Google ''Book of Abraham pt 8, Paul Gregersen youtube'' That video pretty much destroys the Egyptologists in about 35:00 minutes.
@@richardholmes7199 As I told you before, Gregersen makes things up based on things Hugh Nibley made up. His presentation is totally useless.
@@danvogel6802 How is his presentation totally useless?
Surah 14. Abraham
47. Never think that Allah would fail his apostles in His promise: for Allah is Exalted in power, - the Lord of Retribution.
48. One day the earth will be changed to a different earth, and so will be the heavens, and (men) will be marshalled forth, before Allah, the One, the Irresistible;
49. And thou wilt see the sinners that day bound together in fetters;-
50. Their garments of liquid pitch, and their faces covered with Fire;
51. That Allah may requite each soul according to its deserts; and verily Allah is swift in calling to account.
52. Here is a Message for mankind: Let them take warning therefrom, and let them know that He is (no other than) One Allah. let men of understanding take heed.
That is far far far more real than Abraham than this s*** is crappy fanfiction of fanfiction that Smith picked up from both Jewish Christian and Muslim lower probably hand down its up and downs mainly Christian small bits of Muslim not Jewish little
Thank you for this great explanation.
You are barking up the wrong tree by trying to argue with John Gee. Dr Gee obviously didn't pay attention to what the Book of Abraham declared any more than you nor Mr. Osborne. We have been carefully watching Paul Gregesens video part 15. Paul has clearly demonstrated from the text itself what all of you obviously missed. In his new video he points out where Abraham was commanded to teach the Egyptians about a Hebrew astronomy ALONE! It says right in the text why the astronomy itself was nothing but an object lesson to teach the Egyptians about Abrahams family which was Israel. In other words, nothing in the entire Book of Abraham was claiming Egyptian anything unless it was counterfeiting Noah. Chapter one clearly says anything Egyptian was pure Idolatry! WHY DO YOU GUYS, ALONG WITH DR. GEE, AND OTHERS IGNORE THIS TEXTUAL FACT?
What this means is this, trying to show discrepancies about Joseph Smith getting anything Egyptian wrong is ridiculous and a complete waist of everyone's time! The text clearly says God told Abraham to teach about Abrahams posterity ALONE!.
Cant any of you guys read? watch Gregersen's newest video through, its right in front of your face!
Joseph Smith said he only added the facsimiles to the Book of Abraham in order to demonstrate how false gods are fashioned. "Abraham 1:14" Egyptians counterfeiting Gospel truths in order to alter everyone's true understanding. See Abraham chapter one. In other words all Smith was doing is reversing what the Egyptians counterfeited and got wrong back into what God intended. God told him to only teach the Egyptians about his seed which is Israel.
Trying to find parallels to Abraham in order to prove how Smith knew nothing about Egyptian by digging up copied similar sources is simply pure speculation without any real evidence. Harold Bloom the famous Jewish Scholar said it was an impossibility that Smith could have copied names and places that were discovered in the dead sea scrolls over a hundred years later. likewise Oleshem is documented name today that no living scholar knew of in 1840. The Book of the giants discovered in the dead sea scrolls document that Smith knew of many things in the Book of Enoch that no man on earth had yet discovered until the dead sea scrolls.
The critics all ignore these real LIVING facts.
The story about Ahijah is only one of many impossibilities that not only identified an exact characters ancient name but even described the very role he played in Enoch's life story. Joseph Smith obviously wasn't just making things up just because Osborne spends years of his life searching for any long shot similarity that he can discover just so he can call it a perfect match! All yellow journalists do that same thing everyday and always call it truth. Gregersen has connected the real Abraham story by contrasting the Egyptian falsehoods with Hebrew outcomes using exact mathematical connections that cannot be shown to be manipulated. He has demonstrated it to correlate the very same matched history as we see in Daniel chapter two and in Revelation 13:18. The same 666 combines into two separate timelines without a heart beat of deceptive ways to achieve it. GREGERSEN HAS DESTROYED DAN VOGELS THEORIES BY DEMONSTRATING EXACTLY WHY THEIR HAD TO BE A LONG SCROLL.
Excellent video! Thank you
great work dan
I wouldn't place a bet on that.
He be right I don't have enough knowledge but why tear down somebody else's faith why not tell why he has faith in Christ just saying
Actually the god that's standing behind or at the foot of the lion bed is actually Anubis, the drawing depicted of the figure does not have to hands in front of its face, isis is flying above the man's stomach it was another false god and there's another bird by the man's head and the birds head is a man's head clearly depicting that that is another god of some sort. It is not a pagan servant standing there try to kill someone with a knife, it's actually a full on mummification going on. Even the mummification of a mummy's leg sticks out when they were being mummified and their arm was up in front of them it's a picture sun every single mummification hieroglyph in Egypt I've seen it. Even the civilizations of Mormonism don't even exist I Josephson has said that the native Americans were ancestors of the lamanites, they went and checked the bones of the lamanites and the lamanites and the native Americans are not even the same people that was a lie. I'm in the Bible there are ancient civilizations that have existed evidence to prove that they existed just like the Bible has said and we have actually checked it to make sure it was true and the Bible is true, and we have found evidence of the Bible being true so the Bible is 100% accurate. Not only is it 100% accurate is 100% factual because we have all the evidence to prove what we have found from the Bible. But the book of Mormon Joseph Smith talks about the civilization to everything I can't remember what ancient civilizations in the Americas and half of those civilizations didn't even exist they didn't exist at all actually. He also stuck his Stone instead of a hat to get money nobody knew that, until his wife and his father-in-law found out and he said yes I was lying the whole time just to find where to get some money at. And he made multiple contradictions with the book of Mormon and he contradicted the Bible as well. I'll give you an example, he says that there are multitude of gods and there was another god that created God the Father, Isaiah 45:5 says there are no other gods before me nor are there any other gods after me God is saying this there are no other gods before me nor are there any other gods after me I am the only one, there's a contradiction right there because Joseph Smith said that there was a goddess wife with sex with God the Father to create Jesus and Satan that's not the case either that was a lie. The Bible makes it very clear that God is triune that there are three persons in all three of those persons are one God, now I did not say that there are three gods I said there is one God who exists eternally as three persons Father Son and Holy Spirit. So he made another contradiction here he said that Satan and Jesus are brothers, if Jesus is God in the flesh and he created the devil who is a fallen angel and they wouldn't be brothers that was wrong. He also said that kids who are born cannot commit sin, that was a lie, because in the Bible says you are born into sin yes I will admit thatbabies don't have the capability of understanding who Jesus is or know who he is yet that is true but they are born into sin because they will sin when they get older and start to have the knowledge of him. Now I'm going to explain the Trinity to you all and what Christians believe.
The word “trinity” is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the other persons of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says “I” and “You” when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, and who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods but one God. There are three individual subsistences or persons. The word “subsistence” means something that has a real existence. The word “person” denotes individuality and self-awareness. The Trinity is three of these though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the Trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.
The Trinity
God is three distinct, simultaneous persons
Each person is divine
There is only one God
Many theologians admit that the term “person” is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God, there are not three entities nor three beings. God is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.
Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
Each of the three persons is related to the other two but each is distinct from the others.
The word “trinity” is not found in the Bible, but this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word “bible” is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words “omniscience,” which means “all-knowing,” “omnipotence,” which means “all-powerful,” and “omnipresence,” which means “present everywhere” are not found in the Bible either; but we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn’t true because the word isn’t in the Bible is an invalid argument.
Is there subordination in the Trinity?
There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity regarding order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).
This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead is not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son, but this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in his divinity but inferior in his humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband; but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me,” (John 6:38). Of course, Jesus already is King; but the analogy shows that because someone is sent, it doesn’t mean they are different from the one who sent him.
Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way; but this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and the servant, we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human.
Is the Trinity confusing?
Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp, but this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self-revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts that are difficult to understand-especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God’s essence and nature is not possible. What we have done, however, is derived from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.
It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God’s word to their own reasoning and end in error. The following verses are often used to demonstrate that the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical:
Matt. 28:19, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”
Hi @Dan Vogel, how's my favorite BofA critic? I've been so busy, and thought it best to review this before attempting to continue our conversations (I admit I skipped some parts, as always). Either I never understood, or you've edited some of your opinions (which is understandable, as I'm editing my questions now, and I'm sure you've grown over time, and I'm sure Nibley would edit some of his and Gee, if they weren't in print, etc.) So are you of the opinion that Abr. 1:1-3 in Phelps's hand was dictated before work on the GAEL began? This is great news for truth seekers : ). If so, could you possibly be agreeing with Gee and Muhlestein, etc. that the GAEL is reliant upon the BoA?
One thing I respect about you is you may be willing to change your mind in the face of evidence. Hoping : ).
for 17 July 1835, reads: “The remainder of this month, I was continually engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arrangeing a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients.”
Vogel, Dan. Book of Abraham Apologetics: A Review and Critique (p. 52). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.
Dan isn't going to reply to your question because he wants you to buy his book and read chapter 3.
@@kentthalman4459 I don't think Dan is all about sales, do you? I believe he'll respond soon, just needs a bit of time. Of course, you know JS probably didn't write the above, more likely Phelps's point of view, but still, BoA translation began in early July, the alphabets/GAEL, as your quote shows, were reverse translated or engineered to existing BoA text : ). Is there anything else in chapter 3 that we might learn from? What other concept struck you most? Thanks for talking to me, have a great day.
@@Joe-ty2jp Sales? No, but you're attempting exchange a chapter's worth of content in a chat. And yes, that quote above is out of JS's journal, not Phelps.
"the alphabets/GAEL, as your quote shows, were reverse translated or engineered to existing BoA text" as I already explained from quoting snippets of chapter 3 JS's journal entry and the contents of the GAEL show that it isn't.
@@kentthalman4459 Thanks again for sharing Kent, since this is a question for Dan I'll continue my conversation with you on my conversation with you :). I think Dan will respond, they're simple questions and wont take much of his time; unless he's not ready to make a decision either way, then he'll have to think on it. And that's understandable. In our (yours and mine) conversation we can continue to discuss that the journal (generally not written by JS, when you watch Dan's videos you'll notice he hints at this) does say translation began in early July, with Phelps as scribe, etc. It also says JS was "engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham..." we also know JS was involved because he scribed an alphabet, some which is "translated to the BoA," and which shows signs of listening, etc. However, the GAEL includes Phelps's hand, format, spelling, linguistic confidence, etc. But, if it makes it easier to learn together we may assume JS dictated the GAEL from his hat, or Phelps wasn't really involved, etc. as you seem to have suggested...? If you have a second insight from chapter 3 I'd love to hear a brief summary in our conversation below : )...
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping a to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Yes you have the right to worship and believe in whatever words you so choose....I just fail to understand why you would choose to believe in words that were so clearly fraudulently composed ? Doing so just perpetuates the fraud that is Joseph Smith and doing so, that is, perpetuating that fraud onto your own children is simply wrong. However as the New Testament is a similiar fraud I suppose the Mormons are just keeping in the christian " tradition" of fraud.
I find it incredible that in this age of unlimited access to information and scholarship, so many otherwise intelligent people still cling to a religion so thoroughly debunked!
I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell, too. Just another part of Joseph's Myth.
I'll throw the Golden gate in free
Not LDS IT'S church of LSD
Yep
Talk of Joseph’s myth....
The Egyptologists were debunked in 2014.
Excellent. Reality: the antidote to fantasy
In response to Vogel's videos, I'm now running into Mormons who claim that JS took a back seat to working with WW Phelps in trying to reverse engineer the translation. It's bizarre that a claimed seer who has the power to translate would defer to Phelps in the process of translating.
Hi Kent, if you've read Sam Brown or others, you know JS often took advice from Phelps, and that Phelps is the one who gave certain translations etc. (Mormon = more good, etc.) JS had a gift for translating the sacred, but he let Phelps do the "science" so, perhaps these people are speaking more from a response to evidence?
@@Joe-ty2jp No, Phelps never claimed to be a seer or knowledgeable about Egyptian hieroglyphics. All witnesses and their associates state that JS was the translator, no one else. In their letters to family and friends, the scribes wrote that JS translated the papyrus with no mention of Phelps. Phelps wasn't even around when JS translated the reformed Egyptian, which was a far far bigger project, 525 pages (12X bigger translation project) compared to just 42. The notion that JS was a big enough of a seer for the BoM but needed help for the BoA is simply an invention of apologists. Using Phelps as a scapegoat is nothing more than an attempt to remove JS from the manuscript. Such an assertion directly contradicts statements from early members claiming that the reason for JS's reduced reliance on seer stones was because he actually became a greater seer over the years, not a diminished one.
@@Joe-ty2jp "let Phelps do the "science" no, JS never relinquished "the science" but rather took full ownership of it. JS started it with the Caractor Document (Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic) written for Charles Anthon, then built on that effort with the Adamic Language, and then over to the GAEL. The GAEL itself contains carryover from JS's work on the Adamic language, which means that he asserted that those languages were related. There is zero doubt that these assertions originated from JS himself, not Phillips, and that he retained his mantel as translator. Beyond JS's journal entries about translating the alphabet, a fourth of the GAEL contains the Adamic language that he carried over from earlier work. The GAEL itself bears little resemblance to the translation documented in the Abraham Manuscripts, which is why scholars know that it came before the BoA translation. Church history is full of JS claiming that he could translate languages, there's no reason to believe that he relinquished that claim.
@@kentthalman4459 Thanks for sharing Kent. I think I agree with much of that; JS was the translator of the BoA, it's likely that, in 1835, he used his seer stone for the BoA, or at least had his face in his hat, as described by Lucy, etc. As Dan points out, the GAEL is a different project. When Phelps says it's a "translation" he seems to mean it's a reverse engineering project, a reverse "translation." It's a GAEL, that's why it's not all BoA material, but the BoA was the catalyst for this attempt; as you know, Phelps dissected several characters "to the BoA" in the GAEL. The history indicates that translation of the BoA began in early July, with Phelps present as scribe. Work on the GAEL began in late July. Dan seems to lean towards this truth at the end of his video, but in the rest of the video he seems to stick with GAEL first models; hoping he'll clarify. And, JS likely viewed Phelps as having "superior wisdom" in all science and languages, they described the GAEL project as "research." Again, "...if you've read Sam Brown or others, you know JS often took advice from Phelps, and that Phelps is the one who gave certain translations etc. (Mormon = more good, etc.) JS had a gift for translating the sacred, but he let Phelps do the "science" so, perhaps these people are speaking more from a response to evidence?
@@Joe-ty2jp The fact that JS had his head in his hat while he dictated the BoA is just as irrelevant as the BoM is to the creation of the Caractor Document, meaning, it isn't. BTW, was the Caractor Document created before the BoM was translated? Did JS show any curiosity after translating the plates build an alphabet or lexicon from them? I do find it interesting that John Gee disputes the notion that we know that a rock was used for the BoA, but we can see from the three alphabets that JS was disposed to creating them. The three lexicons are obviously like documents even to the point that the GAEL has a portion of JS's Adamic lexicon in it. Those alphabet books are far more alike than attempting to tie the GAEL to the Abraham Manuscripts which is quite different. No one has demonstrated how the GAEL could have possibly been derived from the manuscripts in any way, no one. In contrast, the first and third lexicons demonstrate JS applying "science" to his translation process. You can choose to ignore those artifacts but truth seekers won't. And as I showed in the other chat, JS states in his July entry of his own journal that he's working on the GAEL, not WW. You can choose to ignore JS's journal, but it still exists.
For more information - ua-cam.com/video/ORNYUyHg3pY/v-deo.html
Kerry Muhlestein embarrasses himself by showing that he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to the Book of Abraham and related documents such as the Egyptian Alphabets, the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL), and Book of Abraham Translation Manuscripts. It is clear that he does not understand these documents or their relationships to one another. He also argues against a straw man since his assumption is that critics claim that the three Alphabets and Grammar book were used to produce the Book of Abraham. Informed critics do not make that claim. In fact, my recent book "Book of Abraham Apologetics" spends a great deal of time showing that although the Alphabets and Grammar were created before a majority of the translation, they were only minimally used, which is a problem for the apologists like John Gee and Kerry Muhlestein who argue that the translation came first and the Alphabets and Grammar were reverse engineered from that translation. He also oddly argues that in secular translations, translation comes first before creating a grammar. He doesn't realize that the characters in the Alphabets and Grammar come from places other than JSP XI, which is the source for the characters in the margins of the translation documents. Is Muhlestein ready to give up the reverse-translation theory? If you watch my videos, you will see why Muhlestein is woefully ignorant about the JS Egyptian papers.
@@danvogel6802 Doesn't know or is lying? Muhlestein's assertions are so over the top its quite hard to believe that he's being genuine. The video of Muhlestein talking about Abraham's name being quoted on facsimile 1 is so dishonest in the most basic way it's very difficult to believe that its because he's confused. Far more likely that Muhestein is lying for the Lord.
“Sold by his widow” lol which one there was 30
If the presidents of the church were true prophets then they would have no need of apologists to “explain” the characters, they would get revelation from “God”, but we know it’s all a con anyhow
Hmmm, I'm not sure that Prophets are supposed to be omniscient, but, as Einstein pointed out, if the BoA were really a fraud, it would only take one apostate or one video to have proven that.. 100 years ago :).
@@Joe-ty2jp Videos in general were pretty impressive back in 1923.
Acts 5:39
usually all I have to say is, "Would you believe a teenager told you that God appeared before them and told them to create the correct religion?" I get stuttering and uh's...
If you ask a missionary if their scriptures have ever changed they will say they were edited for grammar and punctuation. At least that's the answer I have gotten. But now I see that it was changing as it was being dictated. Did God change His mind while he was inspiring it? Doesn't make any sense. That's why I follow Islam. It's books have never changed. It has no contradictions in it.
Here is more on the trinity, and just remember I'm not saying there are three Gods I never said that. The doctrine of the Trinity is this: there is one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other person; that is, the Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. But, each is fully divine in nature. Each person is not a god which would make three gods. Instead, the totality of all three persons comprises the one God. Again, the Trinity does not teach that there are three gods. The Trinity is monotheistic since it is the doctrine that only one God exists in all space and time. Christians believe there are no partners with God because we believe there is only one God in all existence. At first, some may look at this teaching and be confused by it. How can God be three persons in one God? This is a good question because it is a bit difficult to grasp. But that is what we would expect, isn’t it, when we encounter God? Would we not expect to find some things about God’s infinite nature a bit beyond our comprehension? This is not unreasonable. However, we must not make the mistake of saying something as ridiculous as, “It doesn’t make sense. Therefore it is true.”
Following is a brief chart that helps clarify how the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at through the Bible.
One of the questions I ask the anti-Trinitarians is “Can you please show me how the Trinity is illogical??” Usually, they respond with something like, “It just doesn’t make sense,” or “It simply can’t be.” But making such statements doesn’t prove or disprove anything. The question is “How is it illogical?” I have yet to hear a logical explanation.
It isn’t against logic for God to be three persons. It may be difficult to understand, and some may not like it; but it isn’t illogical. For it to be illogical, there must be some rule of logic that is violated that makes it impossible for God to exist as a Trinity. For example, to say that one god is really three gods is illogical because the quantity of one is not the same quantity as three; and since they (one and three) are mutually exclusive as to quantity in this situation, to say one god is three gods is illogical. But that isn’t what the Trinity is anyway. Remember, it is not that three gods are one god as some critics mistakenly say. The Trinity is three divine persons who comprise the one God. Furthermore, there is no logical reason why God cannot be three persons.
Trinitarianism is monotheistic. That means that it is a doctrine that teaches the existence of a single being who is God and that there is only one God in all existence. This is sometimes ignored or not known when people (Muslims, Mormons, and other false religions) criticize the Trinity by asserting that the Trinity teaches three gods. But, it does not. As is stated above, the Trinity is a monotheistic theological position.
Mormons and other false religions need to properly understand what they criticize. Most often, they do not. They typically fail to understand what the Trinity really is, make a false caricature of it, and attack the false representation. Then, when we correct them and say that is not what the Trinity is, they often say we don’t know what we are talking about. Mormons need to do their homework.
Finally, when Mormons state that the Trinity isn’t logical, it is up to them to demonstrate how. They need to produce logical statements in sequential form that demonstrates the impossibility of the Trinity. If they are not able to do it, then they should stop making the claim.
You have convicted your own self,u have proven just how confused you are . The trinity doctrine came from the Catholic church. Can you understand that,if not do a little research ! You are just as confused as the Mormons, if not more .
Here are several comparisons from Christianity and Mormonism. Obviously the book of Mormon is not going to agree with the Bible as a matter of fact the contradicted and here are the contradictions that I'm telling you that the book of Mormon makes.
Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it and see if it will stand the test,” (Brigham Young, May 18, 1873, Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 46).
What does Mormonism teach? Well, here are some of the basics, plain and simple.
God came from another planet
God is a man with a body of flesh and bones
There is a mother goddess
God and his goddess wife are married
You can become gods
Following is a comparison between Christian doctrine and Mormon doctrine. It will become very obvious that Mormonism does not agree with the Bible. In fact, Mormonism uses the same words found in Christianity, but it redefines them. So, with a proper understanding of what Mormonism really teaches, you will be able to see past those definitions into the real differences between Christianity and Mormonism.
The difference is the difference between eternal life and damnation.
Note: When we say “person” in the context of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we do not mean that they are individuals as we people are individuals. Instead, it is meant in the theological sense where a person is seen as one who says “you,” “your,” “me,” “mine,” etc. A person speaks, has a will, recognizes one’s self and others.
Topic
Christian
Mormon
GODThere is only one God. (Isaiah 43:11; 44:6, 8; 45:5). “And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light.” (Book of Abraham 4:3).God has always been God. (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15). “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345).God is a spirit without flesh and bones. (John 4:24; Luke 24:39). “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s,” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:22; Compare with Alma 18:26-27; 22:9-10).
“Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).TRINITYThe Trinity is the doctrine that there is only one God in all the universe and that He exists in three eternal, simultaneous persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35, 1984).JESUSJesus was born of the virgin Mary. (Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23). “The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood-was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
“Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers” (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).Jesus is the eternal Son. He is the second person of the Trinity. He has two natures. He is God in flesh and man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2;9) and the creator of all things (Col. 1:15-17).Jesus is the literal spirit-brother of Lucifer, a creation (Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).
Mormonism distinguishes between the Holy Spirit (God’s presence via an essence) and the Holy Ghost (the third god in the Mormon doctrine of the trinity).
“He [the Holy Ghost] is a being endowed with the attributes and powers of Deity, and not a mere force, or essence,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 144).SALVATIONSalvation is the forgiveness of sin and deliverance of the sinner from damnation. It is a free gift received by God’s grace (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 6:23) and cannot be earned. (Rom. 11:6).Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . .
“The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins,” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).Salvation (forgiveness of sins) is not by works. (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:5; Gal. 2:21). “As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements - ‘obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'” (Articles of Faith, p. 79).BIBLEThe inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16). It is authoritative in all subjects it addresses. “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly…” (8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church).
This is only a sample of many of the differences between Christianity and Mormonism. As you can see, they are quite different doctrines. God cannot be uncreated and created at the same time. There cannot be only one God and many gods at the same time. The Trinity cannot be one God in three persons and three gods in an office known as the Trinity, etc. These teachings are mutually exclusive.
This is important because faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. Is the Mormon god the real one? Or, is the God of historic and biblical Christianity the real one?
Mormonism is obviously not the biblical version of Christianity. It is not Christian, and Mormons serve a different god than Christians - a god that does not exist. Paul talks about this in Gal. 4:8, “when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.” Only the God of the Bible exists. There are no others. Mormonism puts its faith in a non-existent god.
@Brian Nielsen there's no real Gods like Odin or Thor here.
Mormons have no mother or goddess they only have a hell mother a woman from another planet Immortal they don't have any gods don't have any goddess any any any in any sense of the word. Jesus is not jehovah and jehocah is Father no argument.
Please stop using Isaiah 40 to 45 or 46 other passages like for example Isaiah chapter 14 words equal or perhaps Deuteronomy or Daniel or 2nd Thessalonians please stop using Isaiah that's a crappy trinitarian error Mormons are satanic broad cult that are still trinitarian more satanic Lies they say "god head" when they have No god any any any they have no head either its completely meaningless and more so.
"Ki-Abra-oam-Zub-Zool-Oan" Ha! Ha! Ha! Every time I hear you read this out loud I laugh so hard I can't breathe!
The KEP are not translation notes, and were not written by Joseph Smith. That seems like an insurmountable problem.
Did you watch? One of the Egyptian Alphabets is in the handwriting of Joseph Smith. Besides, we know he employed scribes to write as he dictated. None of the revelations are in his handwriting either. Did you not see where I discuss the two passages in the History of the Church where Joseph Smith is said to have begun an Alphabet as well as a Grammar in July 1835? They are not translation notes of the Book of Abraham directly, but they are translations nonetheless.
@@danvogel6802 I regret leaving such a terse reply. The KEP includes a great many disparate documents and any attempt to group them under one umbrella is fraught with the danger of being misleading. Sure, Joseph Smith authored some small part of the documents, 2 items, if memory serves, and it could be argued that the rest are a product of transcription, but there are several problems with that theory. Truth has an explanatory aspect, and theories which don't adequately explain the known facts shouldn't be treated with much deference. Theories run the risk of being largely the product of imagination, when they don't conform to the known facts.
According to the journal of William Appleby, the writings of Abraham and Joseph were taken from a male mummy.
“Saw the Rolls of Papyrus and the writings thereon, taken from off the bosom of the Male Mummy, having some of the writings of ancient Abraham and of Joseph that was sold into Egypt. The writings are chiefly in the Egyptian language, with the exception of a little Hebrew. "
None of the extent scroll fragments contain any Hebrew, and William is not the only witness to mention that the Book of Abraham contained Hebrew inscriptions. Hebrew is quite distinct from Egyptian. Any theory should account for the Hebrew inscriptions. Two of the four mummies were male, Hor and Amenhotep.
According to Oliver Cowdery, the Abraham scroll had red ink.
“The record of Abraham and Joseph, found with the mummies, is beautifully written in papyrus with black, and a small part, red ink or paint, in perfect preservation.”
Perfect preservation? Red ink? Is he referring to the Hor scroll? It doesn't sound like it. The Hor scroll doesn't have any red ink, and contains huge gaps where pieces have fallen off.
According to Charlotte Haven, another witness, the scroll from which the Book of Abraham was taken was a long scroll.
"Then she[Lucy Mack Smith] turned to a long table, set her candle-stick down, and opened a long roll of manuscript, saying it was "the writings of Abraham and Isaac, written in Hebrew and Sanscrit," and she read several minutes from it as if it were English."
Is the Hor manuscript a long scroll? Could any Book of Breathings or Sensen text be considered a long scroll? No, on all accounts. Charlotte is describing something else altogether than what critics have claimed to be the source for the Book of Abraham.
Back to the KEP. So the question becomes, why are Egyptian symbols, taken from the Hor parchment, presented side by side with text from the Book of Abraham, if the Book of Abraham was not taken from the Hor parchment? One theory, that is a better explanation than the one offered by critics, is that they were attempting to translate the Hor inscriptions using their knowledge of the already translated Book of Abraham inscriptions. The ideas represented by the Egyptian characters are found in the ensuing "translation", along with many others. Unfortunately, this theory fails for its inability to account for the non-Egyptian symbols, which comprise the bulk of the symbols. In fact, none of the "Egyptian" numbers are Egyptian at all, being taken from Sanscrit and Arabic. The critic's theories are no better, failing to account for these non-Egyptian symbols. Perhaps the best theory to date is Schryver's theory of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers being an attempt to create a cypher to encrypt revelations. The use of Masonic cypher symbols in the KEP is an important piece of evidence. Shryver presents compelling evidence that the KEP were created AFTER the Book of Abraham was translated by revelation. Joseph Smith's earliest reference to the "Egyptian Alphabet" already recognizes the Book of Abraham as a finished work.
@@robertrosskopf4641 If you would simply watch the videos, you would see that none of what your wrote matters.
@@danvogel6802 I watched it again. What am I missing? Your theory doesn't explain the list of items I supplied. Start with the paper about Egyptian numbers, and explain it.
@@robertrosskopf4641 Where is Dan Vogel?
I may not be the brightest of scholars but your image shown at 7:28 and explained as the great Osiris looks nothing like the glyph presented by Smith. Not to mention the fact that the interpretation you use as the old man with the staff being "great" is not correct. It actually means "aged one". That and the man in the original glyph is clearly not holding a full staff and he is not bending over. If the man is meant to be holding a staff and not bending over then it means "official" or authority". If he is holding a shorter object which seems more accurate then it should be better interpreted as the Semitic symbol for "force" or "effort". and the other image looks absolutely nothing like the symbol for Osiris, but rather looks identical to the Semitic symbol for "fire" which is written as the Aleph 'x' and the Shin 'E' connected at the top. this glyph would be more accurate being interpreted as "a priest or someone of official authority used force to burn or light something on fire". not trying to trying to defend what someone else's interpretation might have been but clearly your explanation and interpretation are off the mark. the symbol for Osiris has always been drawn as what looks like a mitten with a head on it and the "Ex" symbol looks nothing like a mitten with a head. poor translations are damaging your credibility. and this is only 7 minutes into your 45 minute attempt to debunk that which even you clearly don't understand. my interpretation may not be perfect but it has to be far closer than yours.
Scott, I don’t pretend to be an Egyptologist. I’m merely
reporting how Egyptologists have represented and translated these characters. I
obtained the standardized image from Edward H. Ashment, “Joseph Smith’s
Identification of ‘Abraham’ in the Papyrus JS 1, the ‘Breathing Permit of Hôr,’”
Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 33, no. 4 (Winter 2000): 123, where he
also stated that the two characters represent a man’s name “
You have to read and studied egyptology that means more real University tried Denver if you live in Utah go to Colorado and Denver or try Nevada or try Arizona places that have a real Chrysler as well as honest and godly scholarship and professors who studied egyptology not Utah worth Lucifer ISM and Satanism where there is no Israel or Egypt or anything for that matter but Babel
Joseph Smith never said that the Book of Abraham was translated from the pictures. That was made up after his death. He received the words from God. I don't know about Egyptian material. I am no scholar. I do know that the Book is real.
Did you learn nothing from the video?
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. In History of the Church Volume 2, Chapter 16, Page 236 Joseph Smith writes, “I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham”. You can find the source here: byustudies.byu.edu/content/volume-2-chapter-16
Michael Wells, how do you know Joseph received the words of the Book of Abraham from God?
No you don't know it's real and you know it's not real by looking at it fake it's been proven a fake a long time ago even buy it straight forward content it's fraud don't believe it question it challenge it and expose it
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 he doesn't know and even you should understand that being in the cold that you were they aren't they don't know they're just repeating the same life they're cold feeds them like a like a dead brace brainwash robot who's deceived doesn't even notice it it doesn't want to look at the truth I can't see themselves in the mirror critically or even honestly they're brainwashed dead robots the same lie again and again in other words it's just fake it till you make it that's what some Asian I've come up with and I've confirmed with these Colts repeat the same dribble lies again and again and thinking it's going to be possible when it's not in other words full as many people as you can. Anyone can say I know when they don't know that's just a fallback life cheating word prove your words don't just say things without giving evidence cuz when you say you know but you don't you're lying and when you can't prove it you don't know that means you're lying
“When they are learned they think they are wise”. The book by Hugh Nibley is a good response to this. If you are truly open minded and interested in both sides, instead of using this as a forum for dissing the church, you will check this out. For those reading this who are still members, this is why God constantly reminds us that we cannot “trust in the arm of flesh”, meaning that we can’t base our testimony on so-called physical evidence; instead we base it on spiritual experiences, which can’t be disproved by science. It is also important to remember that science is alive and constantly changing. We continually learn new things, and old ideas are exchanged for new. Continue to keep an open mind...don’t close it off because of what our current views of science and history seem to tell us. This is the only way you can really learn the truth. Also respect the beliefs of others. Don’t waste time dissing the church and trying to prove the church false. Remember, whatever you believe, the truth will eventually be known. It’s a waste of energy arguing about it.
Agreed
Did you watch the videos? They respond to Nibley and other apologists.
Michael Richards, the problem with spiritual experiences is that lots of people have them. If two different people have contradictory spiritual experiences, it is very difficult to tell who is right. Muhammad had spiritual experiences, for example, but his experiences are completely incompatible with the revelations of Joseph Smith. The process of revelation, as a practical matter, is impossible to distinguish from use of a person's imagination.
Pretty clear that you didn't actually watch the video.
Something I've been told worth considering I think isn't necessarily HOW he was able to render a nearly flawless Book of Abraham along with accurate depictions from the vignette as much as it us he DID. Thaf's a conundrum. Because there can't be two realities. I can't pretend to know what process was applied but it seems reasonable from HIS perspective it WAS a record of Abraham. He couldn't have yielded a true record from the papayus unless he had translational gift.
Christopher Foote or he just made it up, just like the golden plates written in reformed Egyptian. He did have a great imagination and could tell stories!
Christopher Foote flawless? What are you talking about? Dan Vogel proves there are literally ENDLESS flaws and puts the flaws right to your face. You have to purposely ignoring ALL the flaws and literally lie to yourself to come up with your convoluted statement ... Hello!! Wake up Mormons!! You are in a cult and you don’t even know it!
@@ShineBrightly I take exception to the statement simply because people make mistakes that somehow proves an entire religion false. As if the measure of truth is necesssrily perfection. As if that's the requirement. Actually Dan Vogel at least as far as I can tell isn't on a crusade to prove or to disprove anything. As best as I can tell his intentions are to enlighten within the context of his perspective. Let me tell you something about perspective. It varies from person to person. And if you are certain the entire religion is a lie perpetuated by a charlatan that's still only an opinion. Not a fact. Actually it doesn't bother me all that much, either way. If you knew anything at all about it it would maybe (and admittedly only maybe) convince you further to the authenticity. As he (Joseph Smith, himself) was told he would be known either for good (faithful adherents to the gospel) or bad (detractors). Throughout history.
Hmmmm. That's interesting. Isn't it? Not simply for good. But for bad. Spoken of. Not guilty of.
Actually there will be a separation the wicked from the righteous before the great and terrible day of the Lord. Celebrate your victory! Time is running short after all.
But you are assuredly mistaken if you think by tearing down the church established by Christ himself you are going to receive an inheritance. At least not one divine. Go ahead! Make a mockery of it. Do everything you can to destroy it. It will all be counted against you to your own peril in the day of judgement. The Church isn't on trial. God won. Victory is his. The celebration you are participating in is one of the vanquished. You lost. Satan knows he lost. He's miserable as fuck and misery loves company!
Christopher Foote do you hear yourself? You literally said in your first post ... the book of Abraham is “nearly flawless”. ...
NOW you basically admit that ... Well, actually it is flawed ... but then start throwing convoluted excuses for all the proven flaws ... basically saying ... “so what?.. nobody is perfect ... so therefor, the Mormon church is still true anyway ... even though the Mormon leaders are proven deceives .... What the??
Which one is it brother? You are so invested in your own indoctrinated world view that you can literally lie to yourself about how “perfect” your religion is. But when faced with the reality that Mormonism is MASSIVELY FLAWED - Mormonism is full of documented, verified and proven lies and deceptions.
When you are faced with that fact ... suddenly you can switch gears and basically say .. “just because there are major flaws doesn’t mean the Mormon church isn’t true.”
One minute its “nearly flawless” (near perfection). The next minute. ... well that’s not really the case. There are tons of flaws ... but so what? You literally are lying to yourself in REAL time and you don’t even realize it. So so sad.
Here is the REAL truth brother. Anyone actually honest with themselves and with God knows... Jesus Christ would never tell his “only true church” to literally whitewash, cover up, deceive and outright lie about its real history, doctrines and finances... Jesus Christ would never tell his “only true church” to straight up LIE! NEVER!
The Mormon deceptions and lies are documented, verified and proven... that is a simple fact. That “simple fact” proves Mormonism is a total sham.
Unless you don’t believe in honesty and integrity and TRUTH. Unless you actually believe Jesus Christ would tell his “only true church” to whitewash, cover up, deceive and outright lie about its REAL HISTORY.... Proving you are willing to straight up lie to yourself and to God in order to protect your own indoctrinated world view about Mormonism.
So so sad.
@@ShineBrightly I don't remember saying anything about Abraham. Actually you are making a lot if assumptions. I could personally care less about anything in particular you might say about the doctrine. If you don't want to believe in it you probably shouldn't. Doesn't bother me . Not in the slightest. Nor will it likely upset me in the future. Either.
What exactly is your problem? Not that I really care but I'm a peach of a guy so what exactly is it you're having difficulty with? Believing it? I guess you aren't required to believe any of it. Again not upsetting me.
Actually it would appear the problem you have is trusting someone might have a better more thorough more comprehensive understanding about something it seems clear you know little about. It's not about Smith. It's about you believing you're smarter. Well you're not. Sorry.
I'm nit particularly smart but I'm smarter than you are. Get over it.
It's almost like listening to people nowadays explain their pronouns and what they mean lmao. Xi/xer/xim/ximi/za/zer/=xe/xeer/xium/zaa/zae/zaer=dumdass
but we wuz nephites lol
well..... reminds me of the modern daze religion of CO2 induced climate change.
Or modern daze worship of the Einstein meme...
Or the etc etc et cetera....
Or the Official Pandemic Narrative.
i don't really want the details or an armchair commentary to Smith's dictation, I just wanted to know what Smith translated ugh
He didn't translate anything. He only pretended to translate. Does that help?
@@danvogel6802 My request was what he so translated your opinion is your own. I don't have pretences to give my opinion until I know what the heck Smith wrote. I.e the work of the person in question not that of the person who studied him but didn't know him.
@@emeraldt4981 You make no sense. What you are saying is not wise but foolish.
@@danvogel6802 twas looking for Smith's writing not someone else's extended exposition. i'm not mormon and i don't care what anyone's opinion is of anyone. Everyone has their own mind to judge for themselves. Got it? Pretty much what i said up there. I wasn't looking for your opinion kapish?
@@emeraldt4981 The title of this channel is "Mormon Origins Explained." You do know the meaning of "explained," right?
You are barking up the wrong tree by trying to argue with John Gee. Dr Gee obviously didn't pay attention to what the Book of Abraham declared any more than you nor Mr. Osborne. We have been carefully watching Paul Gregesens video part 15. Paul has clearly demonstrated from the text itself what all of you obviously missed. In his new video he points out where Abraham was commanded to teach the Egyptians about a Hebrew astronomy ALONE! It says right in the text why the astronomy itself was nothing but an object lesson to teach the Egyptians about Abrahams family which was Israel. In other words, nothing in the entire Book of Abraham was claiming Egyptian anything unless it was counterfeiting Noah. Chapter one clearly says anything Egyptian was pure Idolatry! WHY DO YOU GUYS, ALONG WITH DR. GEE, AND OTHERS IGNORE THIS TEXTUAL FACT?
What this means is this, trying to show discrepancies about Joseph Smith getting anything Egyptian wrong is ridiculous and a complete waist of everyone's time! The text clearly says God told Abraham to teach about Abrahams posterity ALONE!.
Cant any of you guys read? watch Gregersen's newest video through, its right in front of your face!
Joseph Smith said he only added the facsimiles to the Book of Abraham in order to demonstrate how false gods are fashioned. "Abraham 1:14" Egyptians counterfeiting Gospel truths in order to alter everyone's true understanding. See Abraham chapter one. In other words all Smith was doing is reversing what the Egyptians counterfeited and got wrong back into what God intended. God told him to only teach the Egyptians about his seed which is Israel.
Trying to find parallels to Abraham in order to prove how Smith knew nothing about Egyptian by digging up copied similar sources is simply pure speculation without any real evidence. Harold Bloom the famous Jewish Scholar said it was an impossibility that Smith could have copied names and places that were discovered in the dead sea scrolls over a hundred years later. likewise Oleshem is documented name today that no living scholar knew of in 1840. The Book of the giants discovered in the dead sea scrolls document that Smith knew of many things in the Book of Enoch that no man on earth had yet discovered until the dead sea scrolls.
The critics all ignore these real LIVING facts.
The story about Ahijah is only one of many impossibilities that not only identified an exact characters ancient name but even described the very role he played in Enoch's life story. Joseph Smith obviously wasn't just making things up just because Osborne spends years of his life searching for any long shot similarity that he can discover just so he can call it a perfect match! All yellow journalists do that same thing everyday and always call it truth. Gregersen has connected the real Abraham story by contrasting the Egyptian falsehoods with Hebrew outcomes using exact mathematical connections that cannot be shown to be manipulated. He has demonstrated it to correlate the very same matched history as we see in Daniel chapter two and in Revelation 13:18. The same 666 combines into two separate timelines without a heart beat of deceptive ways to achieve it. GREGERSEN HAS DESTROYED DAN VOGELS THEORIES BY DEMONSTRATING EXACTLY WHY THEIR HAD TO BE A LONG SCROLL.
Gregersen has no answer for why the hieroglyphics on the Abraham manuscripts match the beginning of the papyrus. None.
Interesting. Scientific proof from a layman who distances himself from a professor of Egyptology (Prof. Kerry Muhlestein from BYU). Hard to make a case on opinions and speculations.
I'm not sure what you mean, but my analysis has nothing to do with Muhlestein's opinions about Egyptology. This has to do with his poor understanding of Joseph Smith documents and early Mormon history.
Muhlstein is a pseudo fraud apologetic idiot he's not a scientist or an egyptologist he's a pseudo fraud with an agenda he's hired by your Colt to lie just like your stupid little farm cult is controlled by your cult to defend your satanic cult the endlessly fails only can do is gas line you smoke screens and think no one's going to catch him on it sorry but s*** don't fly Peter
You can't trust BYU they're not even a real University is a fraud sham with no information reliably and you can even talk to non Moe's go there will tell you that the education they want is not even half as much as they expected. You have a better chance learning from a Baptist Seminary College then you would with this crap from hell.
🤣🤣😂😂😁😁😉😉🤣🤣 !
Because Egyptologists don’t agree? Egyptologist are amongst the most shady and lying people in the planet. Everyone knows that xD
The Egyptologists have been proven wrong, the anti-Mormon pukes won't admit to it though. Google ''Book of Abraham pt 8, Paul Gregersen youtube'' That video destroys the Egyptologists in about 35:00 min.
How so how do they not agree that's the biggest strongman attack I've heard yet and actually if I if I remember right it's your Colts that don't agree on how you should practice your cold and you guys lie left and right like you're stupid little presents keep contradicting each other just like Smith contradicted himself every year of his life
@@richardholmes7199 when will you give up all your lies dude
@@richardholmes7199 ua-cam.com/video/dkMCDVMrVK8/v-deo.html
@@richardholmes7199 egyptologist can't even get touched but yet you lie about them left and right to cover your ass but that doesn't work as s*** don't fly your lies are going to get torn down and proven to be against you offended and shown to be true and always been right Michael people like myself who understand the facts of your Colt and that Egypt ology is facts and Truth well your Colt is Intuit scam and fraud here you don't know what you're talkin about Buddy.