Harmonic balancers are pretty exciting when the ring comes off the hub. Once was enough for that. You're a wealth of information on these Fords. I always learn something, and I've been around Fords all my life.
I've built 5 bolt 289 blocks into 331 and used the timing cover oil filler and 260 valve covers.... STEALTH.... except for the super sharp genius that checks the damper.👍
Some great information. Love Ford's inconsistencies. My 67 Mustang is right there on the switch between early 67 and late 67 changes. Makes it fun sometimes getting parts.
thank U so MUCHHH! I had this exact problem here in Brazil with my 302 mustang. It had a ford maverick 280z harmonic balancer and the correct one is 500z. The video really helped me to figure out this bad vibration on the engine.
I've said many many many times..... when you are doing this kind of stuff. Ford will separate the Men from the Boys in a hurry. And it's because of this kind of stuff. Ford you have to Know what you have........ not what you Think you have, or you end up with a lot of returns, or shelves full of (maybe one of these will turn up) parts. Great video as always man!
We've got a teenager who works on it when he's not juggling the other responsibilities on his shoulders. His plan is to use it for his lawn care company.
@AutoRestoMod should be fine, unless he plans on towing a heavy load. Pulling a load isn't the issue. Being able to stop it is where the problem lies LOL! Good luck to him. I sold mine in 1998.
interesting and fun video! I am building a Heinz 57 junkyard mutt 302 ranger and getting everything sorted out has been a hassle. all your information has been helpfull and enteraining BUT it was difficult to extract actionable data from it. perhaps put it on a spreadsheet or table??
I'm using a Professional Products #80046 ,has 3 different bolt patterns and degree etchings and removable weights. If you have a SBF basically it works, Besides many vintage balancers have cracked rubber and can come apart
Somewhere I read that all the 351W were 28oz weight. I was looking for a 28oz flexplate for my 1966 289 with an AOD. The 1990 351W says 164 tooth and 28oz.
I think more people than we thought scratch our heads over balancers. My 390fe has the same problem. 1967 block had a real thin one. Was told it’s also used on the 427. My research put it on the straight 6. Ugh. Lol
Stock, I read all 351w are 28oz. I bought a new an ATK 351 for my 86 bronco and used the stock flex plate and new 28oz balancer. Seems smooth as can be.
This is a long shot but I'm at my wits end with my 70 F-100. I had the original 302 stroked to a 349, added Fi-tech EFI, March pulley system, pro-form aluminum heads and vintage air. I didn't build the engine or install it,( I had it done). when the fella started putting the march pulley system on it he said I would need a 4 bolt harmonic balancer so I ordered it from the march pulley company. After he got everything installed and I picked the truck up and drove it home, it just didn't feel right. After I drove the truck to get the feel of it I noticed a vibration at idle and at about 40-45 mph. I can't do the work on the truck myself because of some health issues. I had another mechanic replace the flex-plate and made sure all the pulley's were lined up and I've still got a vibration. I wish I had never used the march system, It seems like that may have been where the problem started. I don't know a lot about the internals of an engine but I can't drive my truck and I really don't even know where to start. I've had this truck for 34 years and for the last 5 or so years it's just sat in the garage. I'm just needing some info as to where to start trying to figure this mess out. Love watching your videos especially when its about 67-72 F100's. Thank you, Byron A
It's a little hard to diagnose that without actually looking at the truck. What I would want to know from March is which balancer they sent because Ford used 28 Oz imbalance up to 1982. After that, they went to a 50 Oz imbalance. But typically, if you have the wrong balancer on the engine, it's not going to be a vibration it's going to be a shake. Contact me at jford@autorestomod.com and we might be able to work through it.
Good info. Dad bought a 84 Bronco w/o an engine and he put a 69 351w in place of the 302 and drove it for a few years with a terrible vibration. I remember when he changed the flexplate to the 28 Oz and smooth as butter. Me now put together a 302 clevor w/ aussie closed chamber heads using 84 302 HO and found out that the mustang flywheel didn't have all the necessary teeth making no start till I found a f150 flywheel. Can make your head hurt but that is what Goody powders are for.😁
So.... my '73 Mach 1 Mustang with 351C 2V has had a very mild, harmonic vibration since I have owned it, noticed sitting in park, with the engine revved between 2300 and mostly noticed at 2800 RPM. I did replace the harmonic balancer, as the one on it was showing rubber oozing out in places it shouldn't. Anyway, the new balancer matches the old one, and the vibration remains. I have also read the flex plate for small block Fords can have different weights. The engine runs good, is very drivable, and the vibration is hardly noticable. I've been told that if there was a wrong part, either the harmonic balancer, or the flexplate, on the engine, it would be VERY noticable. Your thoughts?
Your rotating assembly is out of balance. Crank, pistons, rods, damper and flexplate all need to match. Commonly it's found when a single piston is replaced and its not matched
i had to line up the pullies on a 302 powered 69 mustang including making one for the new alternator.... its wasnt easy or fun then we got a new second had 2 belt water pump pulling that i had to space forward just over an 1/8 engineers just can't leave shit well enough alone.
I have a 1968 ford 302 out of a Econoline Van and it has a 4 hole harmonic balancer and I put a 1998 ford crown vic front drive system and it fit fine with no problems
Old engines were balanced 28 rear/28 front Newer engines (one piece oil seal) are balanced 50 rear/18 oz. front. If you have a 18 in place of 28 you might not notice it "much" but it's beating up the front main bearing by whipping the crankshaft like a jump rope.
@@blakeneysanders4264 they will all have a balancer/dampner on them. Now if I remember right the 352 is internally balanced so your dampner on the front will be nuetrally balanced.
What would cause the vibration on a 1987 ford 302 and it has the 50 Oz harmonic balancer and the flexplate is 50 Oz and we changed harmonic balancer and changed flex plates again its a new blueprint reman 302
Ford used a 28 oz. balancer on the 220,260, 289 windser engines, however in 1963, Ford built what was called the "Special" engine. This became known as the HIPO 289. This engine has a completely different balance from the standard 289/302 engine. The balancer was a 30.4 oz. unit. Also there was a small balancer behind the timing gear. and the engine had a nickel crankshaft and 3/8" rod bolts. ( the reason for the 30.4 balancer and flywheel which you can identify by a ground area with a hardness test mark. So, actually Ford made 3 differenct balances between 1962 and 1981.
They stopped producing the harmonic balencers for the 302 96 ford f150. Is it possible to get away with substituting it with a 95 302 harmonic balencer?
What about the 1996 F-150/Bronco 302, is there any way to add the 4-point tone ring to a 1992-95 balancer? The '96 balancers are not available, the only option is to repair them. If you install the regular balancers from 92-95, you'll have a check engine warning (misfire).
I'd post a picture if I could, another variable Ford threw in there is the EEC-III ignition system. It had a crankshaft position sensor that sensed 4-pointed star points that were on the harmonic balancer in the early 80s(ish) that triggered the ignition system, along with a throttle position sensor on the carburetor. Don't believe me? Google Motorcraft 2150 carburetors with a throttle position sensor.
Here’s my issue. I bought a basket case. The block has an E0 date on it. The balancer appears to be a 50oz. with the thicker outer ring but it has 3 bolt holes for the pulley. It kinda throws me off by connecting with the 3 bolt scenario that you mentioned. It doesn’t have the pie shaped weight. Do I have a 50 oz. ? I’m wanting to use my Fox body flywheel to go with a T-5. I just don’t want to proceed further until I’m sure. I must have an “ish” engine. Help!
The harmonic balancer for the f 150 1996 5.8 Windsor can't find it in the auto parts whith the tone ring, o pulse ring whatever the name is can't get it is discontinued
Hey, what’s up brother my question is, im having a remanufactured 302 built for my for my 91 crown Vic and I asked them to balance it do I need to give them the original harmonic balancer, and flywheel, so that it is in sync with my AOD torque converter? Thank you for the response. Dig the channel by the way. 🇺🇸👍
I'm going to stick with the Fluid Damper that was on my 351C that I just purchased. The flywheel and crank flange has been marked so the engine must have been balanced???
Owning a new build 351w from 1969, would I need to change the harmonic pulley if installing a manual gearbox instead of the c4 automatic?. Is the trick to get a 69 flywheel for the manual?. Thanks, all the way from Denmark 👍👍
Great vid ! Thanks for the clarification. Question: Are the flexplates the same (as in the balance weights) from the early 302 to the post 81-ish models ? I assembled an '87 5.0 ... that after watching your video has the correct 50 oz. balancer. I have a vibration at idle that seems slightly excessive but completely goes away at about 1500 rpm, so am wondering if I somehow have the incorrect year flexplate (?) because I built the final engine from 2 pre 80's 302's and 1 87 hydraulic roller motor.
Ford did throw a rock into this discussion. Today,,, You can buy a Boss 302 (Windsor) with Z heads and 9 to 1 compression, 340 HP. This engine is INTERNALLY BALANCED. NO EXTERNAL WEIGHTS on the balancer or flywheel .
🔔😎 Dampers (balancers 😳) are to reduce torsional twist of the crankshaft as each piston fires. Like twisting your arm. The imbalance weight is to help the reciprocating balance by reducing the crankshaft counterweight's mass. The 50 oz crank does NOT have counterweights on the center journals ( edited... wrong...AND it is to be run with the 351 firing order only... Noted as wrong😁) These variations reduce the crankshaft center like whipping like a jump rope. The rotating vibrational and torsional harmonics of each type crank is very different, besides the imbalance weight. Not all 28 are the same. ALL 351s are 28 oz. though there are damper differences throughout the 351w applications. C and M are another story. 🤔
I guess no one told Ford, std output 5.0 in Crown Vic/Grand Marquis & the Fox T-Bird/Cougar used the std firing order of 15426378. I've owned models of all mentioned, none used the HO/351 13726548 firing order.
@@AutoRestoMod It IS most important to understand that a 221/260 damper used on a 302/331/347 are both 28 oz/in imbalance..... BUT the torsional crank stress is totally different. You better be using what the crank requires.... Or go aftermarket. THAT IS PRETTY IMPORTANT.
I have an 87 Mustang LX with 160k on it...only owner. I'm currently replacing the TC, TC cover, and the balancer while I'm there (still looks decent). What's with the small pin that's in one of the holes of the old balancer? My Haynes manual, which covers 78-93 model years, says to swap any pins from the old balancerto new one. The pin was not budging from the old one at all using a 5 lb sledge and punch, so I bought a cold rolled steel rod and made one using a hacksaw. Was this really necessary? I don't see how that little pin could make any difference.
Jeff since you brought up a 1985 5.0 .They did not have the same firing order as the early 289/302 did. They had a different camshaft. I wish I still had my 1985 Ford Mustang GT that I bought brand new.
i have a '70 302 that i want to backdate to an earlier (ie 289) look. can i swap a three bolt balancer onto it? i figure yes but thought to ask y'all. i want to go with single groove pullies as well. any advice regarding this idea is very welcomed.
When the change to four bolt balancer occured, Ford moved the timing pointer to passenger side(thus timing marks on four bolt will be incorrect). Water pump outlet moved to to driver side, requiring different pump. Alternator & P/S pump brackets also different and do not readily interchange. I've owned numerous '69 & '70 all were configured as stated. Only '70 three bolt I've seen are the GT 350 Shelbys that were reVINed as '70.
I have a 302 from what appears the casting is e7te which looks like a truck 87 block. I'm pretty certain it's not a roller setup though, but I haven't confirmed yet. I am changing over to an AOD. This car had a 3 bolt pulley on it, so I always assumed it was a 28oz. Is it possible to setup an 87 block with 28 oz? I'm just wondering what I'm going to have to deal with here with the flywheel.
@@AutoRestoMod Thanks for the reply. I'm going to take the harmonic off to verify and compare based on the info in your videos to know for sure. I just don't know what they have done. I'll probably have to trade this 28oz flexplate for the 50oz
Does the 260 and 289 and share the same balancer? Trying to find a replacement for my 63 galaxie with a 260 3 bolt). Dormans site only lists the 289 as fitment for their 594-269 part number balancer but it looks exactly the same as mine from the photos?
Maybe. At least the 221/260/early 5 bolt 289 are 28 oz/in flywheels. Don't know about the torsional damping because all 3 use the same crankshaft and rods... And piston weights. Things change with HIPOs and later.
Hey man, always enjoyed your videos...and comedy. What are your thoughts on 347 balancing. Some say its not possible with stock 50 oz balancer and yet i have one in my Fairlane from an 84 Mustang. Tnx.
I picked up a short block 302 , turns out it a 72 302 block with 289 hipo rotating assembly the balancer was off thick one . Question is there any other other balancers or gears that make the hipo , making sure I have all the parts?? Any info would be appreciated.
I have a supposed to be 89 302 . The balancer i removed slide off . It measured 1.394" on the i.d . The crank measures 1.374" ish . I bought a new balancer from advance auto and it measures 1.974". Engine ran good . Help!
Oh boy. Just like you i was trying to do some research on this one myself. Talk about confusing and frustrating. But not really in the way anyone is thinking. Here's what i was thinking. Late model 5.0 probably from a explorer. Remove the GT heads and replace with a mildly ported cast iron or off the shelf aluminum. Because the GT's don't fit a 66 mustang without some serious money headers (which i don't have) mind you i don't even have the funds for aluminum cylinder heads. OK well now we get to the meat of it. Keeping my original C4 but trying to locate a flexplate to fit the 5.0 was frustrating. Maybe i was missing something? But when was able to find something that might work holy moly the amount of money was expensive for it. A balancer for the 5.0 is available if you want to keep using the three bolt style, but once again it's kinda pricey. But i finally found what i was looking for and instead of $300-$400+ it's instead somewhere around $170, Much better. Sorry that i got off topic strictly a backyard car guy, but it does clear up small issue that i was wondering about. Thank you.
#1) Don't fall for the propaganda ... The headers for the P heads are no big deal. MOST Conventional headers need only minor denting to clear 2 spark plugs and then use shorter length sparkplugs. A heat sleeve over those 2 boots prevent wire burning. Install the headers, determine which plugs, put a 5/8 socket on an extension, heat the header tube with a torch, apply socket and dent tube for clearance. Like magic.👍 2) flex plates are readily available for $50. You just need to find somebody that knows what you really want 3) Damper applications are specific to crankshaft applications. Just because one fits doesn't mean it's torsional damping correct, even if it's the correct oz/in imbalance. Aftermarket is always better. $$ I've seen mild 302s repeatedly break 3 factory dampers... Split them down the keyways... Yes they were well torqued, just wrong factory type dampers. Aftermarket cured it.
i'm having trouble with a new scat stroker engine that i put in a 289 with a Luk 451 flywheel(28OZ) and a harmonic balancer from dorman i think (i think its 28OZ) bu t i have vibrations when not driving just reving past 2000rpm . i have bought another 28OZ flywheel from pioneer and it still vibrates. can a dorman balancer been bad balanced and give me these vibrations? my engine runs on 8 cilinders5see this on the spark plugs) nice video thanks
If I buy 81 ish up 351w block w/50oz and buy an internally balanced crank... should I stll run the 50oz imbalanced flex and harmonic balancer. Do they internally balance to that imbalance? Thanks guys. All your videos are fun and educational!!!
How bad would a 95 5.0HO vibrate if it had the 28oz? About 10 years ago When my 95 GT was my moms before she passed it had the harmonic dampener/Balancer replaced, on the original the outer ring became loose and was wobbling, I don't remember which one was installed the 28 or 50, It has a vibration at 4000ish up, it's not terrible but bad enough I avoid high revs. It's not rattling my teeth out but noticably not smooth that I know something is off. I'm a Chevy guy so Fords are a mystery to me.
You would notice the imbalance pretty much across the board. It may have a driveline vibration. My 1990 did. I moved to an aluminum driveshaft and it mitigated it.
@@AutoRestoMod na I crawled in there looks like has the big notch so guess it's the 50oz. It's definitely in the engine or clutch it does it in neutral also. I'm lost, the bad balancer was really bad I crawled under it running on ramps looking for a short on main power wire and I looked up and it was wobbling bad I'd say one good high rpm buzz that outer ring would have flown off, fortunately the vibration made high revs undesirable. Wondering as a shit in dark if it did something like maybe hammered the front bearings causing the higher rpm vibration? Never heard of that but I'm doing shot in dark guesses. but it has great oil pressure... Guess it's yank it out time it has a bad rear main leaks bad over 4.5 quarts. Then I can change out the Pistons too to allow bigger valves I really want the AFR 185 or E street vs having to use 165s.or fly cut the reliefs rather not do it. Thanks for reply...✌️
You forgot to add early sbf had timing marks in different locations depending on lower radiator hose placement.....- and I have a Napa rebuild late 70’s 302 with a larger thicker balancer than normal? There are a lot of Ford “ish” isms ....
Good info: Don’t forget about the 289 hipo which had 50oz imbalance with that “pie shaped” plate behind the damper. Yeah, another “ish” added to the list.
Ok here's one if you can answer it I bought a used 302 when I looked up the block it was 87ish but how do you know the crank year crank info SMW stamp/2MAE/20C That's all I could find thinking it's a 50 oz
Hey guys I am using a 1996 ford explorer 5.0 engines in my project My question is can I run a 1990 - 1993 mustang 5.0 harmic balancer because it is different From the explorer and what fly wheel do I need. I want to use the 90-93 front accessories if I can . thanks
Yup! Old vehicles get molested, changed and people will swear nothing is changed. But if that 1968 car got a 1984 engine in 1986...the new engine is now 36 years old. And if driven, it will be well seasoned. I played the imbalance game in 1986 on a Cougar with a 5.0 HO. That was fun.
How do you know if you have to use the plate that’s between the engine and transmission? Bought a 302 ford engine that came from Jegs. Don’t have any paperwork.
As far as I know there is always a separator plate. The style depends on whether it's an auto or manual trans. The auto trans has the access plate for tightening the converter bolts while the manual trans plate is solid at the bottom.
There are two different plates. You must use the plate that matches your bell housing. Your flywheel or your flex plate must match as well. The 164 tooth bell housing and spacer plate will have the nearest starter bolt farther away from the nearest bell housing bolt. In other words, if you have a 157 tooth ring flywheel or flex plate paired with a 164 bell housing and spacer plate, the starter drive gear will not engage with the ring. The starter will just spin.
EVERY damper, new or used, the timing mark should be verified by a piston stop. Why? What if the crank keyway is off a little... And the damper keyway is off a little... And the ring is off a little 🤔🤔🤔 There might be a 5* error in timing.... Even if the ring has not slipped. Hhhmmmmm.
Hey guys I’m running 90 5.0 motor in my 66 ford mustang it has to be 50 oz 3bolt crankshaft pulley damper also have to change your water pump an timing cover to a 66 order a new oil dipstick make sure u order a cut off plate for your mechanical fuel pump If your running a electric fuel pump like I am, also oil pan has to be from a 66 so it can clear steering leakage hope I can help any one u guys out 🤝 also Go to CJ pony ask for guy name Jerry he knows his stuff got me all hooked up I’ll post a video of mine once I’m done also, I’m running a four barrel carburetor part number is 1407 and running my edelbrock intake manifold part number is 2121 with a set of GT 40 P heads four bar also have Shorty headers. Can’t forget about that E303 cam as well. Also boarded out to a 308 stock crankshaft
Just gotta mention it.... The 28 and 50 oz/in balance is for the flywheel ends only. Actually the dampers themselves are NOT 28 or 50 but must coordinate to match each type crankshaft. Ive forgotten but one is like 16 and the other 24. THAT vibration diffrence is not as noticeable as the flywheel end mistake**** Another reason to watch what you have. Ever see a Mopar expert put a 318 torque converter on a 360? Holy shxt. 😱😱😱
Aside from the Boss 351, 351HO and the 351Cobra Jet, the Cleveland stayed with the same twenty-eight ounce imbalance throughout the life of the engines.
260's and 289's do not have the same balancers... And to add on, the 1962/3 260Ci (using 221 connecting rods) are 24.5 oz while the 1964 260's are 26.2 oz because Ford used the 289 rods. The earlier 289Ci used then 28oz balancing.
Harmonic balancers are pretty exciting when the ring comes off the hub. Once was enough for that. You're a wealth of information on these Fords. I always learn something, and I've been around Fords all my life.
Try putting a 260 damper on a 347 ....
YeeeeHaaaaw!!!!
351w never made the switch to 50oz, stayed 28 all the way through.
Yes.
The post '69ish water pumps had a longer snout with deeper dish pulleys so the correct pulleys have to be used to have any chance of belt alignment.
Radiator hose is on the driver's side.... And then there's the reverse rotation.....
Oh look, even MORE mud! LOL
I've built 5 bolt 289 blocks into 331 and used the timing cover oil filler and 260 valve covers....
STEALTH....
except for the super sharp genius that checks the damper.👍
Some great information. Love Ford's inconsistencies. My 67 Mustang is right there on the switch between early 67 and late 67 changes. Makes it fun sometimes getting parts.
Indeed
thank U so MUCHHH! I had this exact problem here in Brazil with my 302 mustang. It had a ford maverick 280z harmonic balancer and the correct one is 500z. The video really helped me to figure out this bad vibration on the engine.
Glad it helped
I'm from Brazil also, doing a 351w to make my Landau a little more agile 😂
This video helped a lot
Thank you for the great info
You are welcome
I've said many many many times..... when you are doing this kind of stuff. Ford will separate the Men from the Boys in a hurry. And it's because of this kind of stuff. Ford you have to Know what you have........ not what you Think you have, or you end up with a lot of returns, or shelves full of (maybe one of these will turn up) parts.
Great video as always man!
I had a '61 Ranchero when I was a teenager. The car in the background reminded me of it.
We've got a teenager who works on it when he's not juggling the other responsibilities on his shoulders. His plan is to use it for his lawn care company.
@AutoRestoMod should be fine, unless he plans on towing a heavy load. Pulling a load isn't the issue. Being able to stop it is where the problem lies LOL! Good luck to him. I sold mine in 1998.
interesting and fun video!
I am building a Heinz 57 junkyard mutt 302 ranger and getting everything sorted out has been a hassle.
all your information has been helpfull and enteraining
BUT
it was difficult to extract actionable data from it.
perhaps put it on a spreadsheet or table??
a better recap
two styles of 28oz both are four bolt pulleys
one style 50 oz allways 3 bolt pulley
is this correct???
I'm using a Professional Products #80046 ,has 3 different bolt patterns and degree etchings and removable weights. If you have a SBF basically it works, Besides many vintage balancers have cracked rubber and can come apart
Even new vintage style dampers can be wrong for the damping.
Somewhere I read that all the 351W were 28oz weight. I was looking for a 28oz flexplate for my 1966 289 with an AOD. The 1990 351W says 164 tooth and 28oz.
Yes. The 351 was a 28 oz.
1989 Crown Victoria police car with 351W 👍👍👍👍 at your local parts store $50
Pioneer FRA-205, bought it for 4R70W ! Pay attention to flywheel offset. Basically ford used 2 differents, only one will fit the 289.
Great explanation sir. Thanks for clearing all that up.
Q: What about the timing marks locations?
Also the affect on pulley locations? To go along with left or right input water pumps
That is another thing entirely. Ford changed it several times. BUT that would make a good video!
Did you make a video about timing marks?
I think more people than we thought scratch our heads over balancers. My 390fe has the same problem. 1967 block had a real thin one. Was told it’s also used on the 427. My research put it on the straight 6. Ugh. Lol
I wanted to hit the 221-351 since it is a lot more current for most owners.
Stock, I read all 351w are 28oz. I bought a new an ATK 351 for my 86 bronco and used the stock flex plate and new 28oz balancer. Seems smooth as can be.
Yes. they are all 28oz.
This is a long shot but I'm at my wits end with my 70 F-100. I had the original 302 stroked to a 349, added Fi-tech EFI, March pulley system, pro-form aluminum heads and vintage air. I didn't build the engine or install it,( I had it done). when the fella started putting the march pulley system on it he said I would need a 4 bolt harmonic balancer so I ordered it from the march pulley company. After he got everything installed and I picked the truck up and drove it home, it just didn't feel right. After I drove the truck to get the feel of it I noticed a vibration at idle and at about 40-45 mph. I can't do the work on the truck myself because of some health issues. I had another mechanic replace the flex-plate and made sure all the pulley's were lined up and I've still got a vibration. I wish I had never used the march system, It seems like that may have been where the problem started. I don't know a lot about the internals of an engine but I can't drive my truck and I really don't even know where to start. I've had this truck for 34 years and for the last 5 or so years it's just sat in the garage. I'm just needing some info as to where to start trying to figure this mess out. Love watching your videos especially when its about 67-72 F100's. Thank you, Byron A
It's a little hard to diagnose that without actually looking at the truck. What I would want to know from March is which balancer they sent because Ford used 28 Oz imbalance up to 1982. After that, they went to a 50 Oz imbalance. But typically, if you have the wrong balancer on the engine, it's not going to be a vibration it's going to be a shake. Contact me at jford@autorestomod.com and we might be able to work through it.
Good info. Dad bought a 84 Bronco w/o an engine and he put a 69 351w in place of the 302 and drove it for a few years with a terrible vibration. I remember when he changed the flexplate to the 28 Oz and smooth as butter. Me now put together a 302 clevor w/ aussie closed chamber heads using 84 302 HO and found out that the mustang flywheel didn't have all the necessary teeth making no start till I found a f150 flywheel. Can make your head hurt but that is what Goody powders are for.😁
Man, I bet your soft drink would go flat by the time you got to work.
Chevys are no better.
Those guys just want us to think that they are.
So.... my '73 Mach 1 Mustang with 351C 2V has had a very mild, harmonic vibration since I have owned it, noticed sitting in park, with the engine revved between 2300 and mostly noticed at 2800 RPM. I did replace the harmonic balancer, as the one on it was showing rubber oozing out in places it shouldn't. Anyway, the new balancer matches the old one, and the vibration remains. I have also read the flex plate for small block Fords can have different weights. The engine runs good, is very drivable, and the vibration is hardly noticable. I've been told that if there was a wrong part, either the harmonic balancer, or the flexplate, on the engine, it would be VERY noticable. Your thoughts?
Might just be poorly balance "crank" at rebuild. Damper/ flex plate imbalance is VERY noticeable.
Your rotating assembly is out of balance. Crank, pistons, rods, damper and flexplate all need to match.
Commonly it's found when a single piston is replaced and its not matched
Hot Rod and John B are correct.
i had to line up the pullies on a 302 powered 69 mustang including making one for the new alternator.... its wasnt easy or fun then we got a new second had 2 belt water pump pulling that i had to space forward just over an 1/8 engineers just can't leave shit well enough alone.
Nope. It's the "legacy effect". They have to put their mark on stuff.
Later 50oz explorer balancers had an intergrated crank pully with tone ring on it.
Yes.
Crank trigger ignitions
I have a 1968 ford 302 out of a Econoline Van and it has a 4 hole harmonic balancer and I put a 1998 ford crown vic front drive system and it fit fine with no problems
The Damper was possibly replaced.
Still has the ford part number on it from 1968
I've never seen any four bolt 302 in '68. What 289 used in '68(its last year) was same as 302(its first year).
Old engines were balanced 28 rear/28 front
Newer engines (one piece oil seal) are balanced 50 rear/18 oz. front.
If you have a 18 in place of 28 you might not notice it "much" but it's beating up the front main bearing by whipping the crankshaft like a jump rope.
is there a difference on the FEs
Yes some are internal balance (352, 360, 390, 427) others are external (428) not including FT series.
@@stephenhotzjustdriveit My 352 has a balancer on the crank or is that something different and I am confused
@@blakeneysanders4264 they will all have a balancer/dampner on them. Now if I remember right the 352 is internally balanced so your dampner on the front will be nuetrally balanced.
Oh okay thanks for the information on that, that's helpful.
@@stephenhotzjustdriveit Thank you for correctly calling it a damper.
Clear and concise-ish.
Does the rubber go bad in all of them
Is replacement different?
Rubbers deteriorate regardless of brand name. $40 gets a new damper.
Agreed
I was all excited to run out to my garage and check my Falcon to see which one I have and then I remembered that I put it in storage last weekend.
Dang. Looks like a prime time for a storage trip.
What would cause the vibration on a 1987 ford 302 and it has the 50 Oz harmonic balancer and the flexplate is 50 Oz and we changed harmonic balancer and changed flex plates again its a new blueprint reman 302
Ford used a 28 oz. balancer on the 220,260, 289 windser engines, however in 1963, Ford built what was called the "Special" engine. This became known as the HIPO 289. This engine has a completely different balance from the standard 289/302 engine. The balancer was a 30.4 oz. unit. Also there was a small balancer behind the timing gear. and the engine had a nickel crankshaft and 3/8" rod bolts. ( the reason for the 30.4 balancer and flywheel which you can identify by a ground area with a hardness test mark. So, actually Ford made 3 differenct balances between 1962 and 1981.
True. Good points
Had a 72 351CJ had a large balancer, still 28oz, yet way bigger than the normal engines.
The timing marks moved around too.
Indeed they did
Thanks for the info very helpful
They stopped producing the harmonic balencers for the 302 96 ford f150. Is it possible to get away with substituting it with a 95 302 harmonic balencer?
What about the 1996 F-150/Bronco 302, is there any way to add the 4-point tone ring to a 1992-95 balancer? The '96 balancers are not available, the only option is to repair them. If you install the regular balancers from 92-95, you'll have a check engine warning (misfire).
I'd post a picture if I could, another variable Ford threw in there is the EEC-III ignition system. It had a crankshaft position sensor that sensed 4-pointed star points that were on the harmonic balancer in the early 80s(ish) that triggered the ignition system, along with a throttle position sensor on the carburetor. Don't believe me? Google Motorcraft 2150 carburetors with a throttle position sensor.
Here’s my issue. I bought a basket case. The block has an E0 date on it. The balancer appears to be a 50oz. with the thicker outer ring but it has 3 bolt holes for the pulley. It kinda throws me off by connecting with the 3 bolt scenario that you mentioned. It doesn’t have the pie shaped weight. Do I have a 50 oz. ? I’m wanting to use my Fox body flywheel to go with a T-5. I just don’t want to proceed further until I’m sure. I must have an “ish” engine. Help!
So If I have a 50 oz harmonic balancer I need to match it with a 50 oz flywheel? I'm planning to swap my AOD to a 6 speed T56 magnum
The harmonic balancer for the f 150 1996 5.8 Windsor can't find it in the auto parts whith the tone ring, o pulse ring whatever the name is can't get it is discontinued
So, to be specific, what does it take to mount a 351C, to a 4R70w?
I work on a 65 that has an E0 block that has a 50oz "80, also 50 oz blocks have one piece rear main seals. So ish is about right, lol.
Ford did SO much of that it gives me a facial tic. Think this is bad? go order rear wheel cylinders for an F-Series.
Hey, what’s up brother my question is, im having a remanufactured 302 built for my for my 91 crown Vic and I asked them to balance it do I need to give them the original harmonic balancer, and flywheel, so that it is in sync with my AOD torque converter? Thank you for the response. Dig the channel by the way. 🇺🇸👍
I'm going to stick with the Fluid Damper that was on my 351C that I just purchased. The flywheel and crank flange has been marked so the engine must have been balanced???
Owning a new build 351w from 1969, would I need to change the harmonic pulley if installing a manual gearbox instead of the c4 automatic?. Is the trick to get a 69 flywheel for the manual?. Thanks, all the way from Denmark 👍👍
Great vid ! Thanks for the clarification.
Question:
Are the flexplates the same (as in the balance weights) from the early 302 to the post 81-ish models ? I assembled an '87 5.0 ... that after watching your video has the correct 50 oz. balancer. I have a vibration at idle that seems slightly excessive but completely goes away at about 1500 rpm, so am wondering if I somehow have the incorrect year flexplate (?) because I built the final engine from 2 pre 80's 302's and 1 87 hydraulic roller motor.
1981ish Ford went to a 50oz imbalance on the 302. 351 remained 28oz.
I recently bought a 1995 Ford Mustang with a 5.0 L how do I know what flywheel to put on it?
Ford did throw a rock into this discussion. Today,,, You can buy a Boss 302 (Windsor) with Z heads and 9 to 1 compression, 340 HP. This engine is INTERNALLY BALANCED. NO EXTERNAL WEIGHTS on the balancer or flywheel .
Agreed but this is more about yesterday than today lol.
🔔😎
Dampers (balancers 😳) are to reduce torsional twist of the crankshaft as each piston fires. Like twisting your arm. The imbalance weight is to help the reciprocating balance by reducing the crankshaft counterweight's mass.
The 50 oz crank does NOT have counterweights on the center journals ( edited... wrong...AND it is to be run with the 351 firing order only... Noted as wrong😁) These variations reduce the crankshaft center like whipping like a jump rope. The rotating vibrational and torsional harmonics of each type crank is very different, besides the imbalance weight. Not all 28 are the same.
ALL 351s are 28 oz. though there are damper differences throughout the 351w applications.
C and M are another story. 🤔
I guess no one told Ford, std output 5.0 in Crown Vic/Grand Marquis & the Fox T-Bird/Cougar used the std firing order of 15426378. I've owned models of all mentioned, none used the HO/351 13726548 firing order.
Didn't want to get off into the details of what imbalance is, honestly that is being saved for a Short since it is a good topic generally.
@@tombryant1104
Correct. I was thinking HOs.
Thanks for noting.
@@AutoRestoMod
It IS most important to understand that a 221/260 damper used on a 302/331/347 are both 28 oz/in imbalance.....
BUT the torsional crank stress is totally different.
You better be using what the crank requires....
Or go aftermarket.
THAT IS PRETTY IMPORTANT.
I have an 87 Mustang LX with 160k on it...only owner. I'm currently replacing the TC, TC cover, and the balancer while I'm there (still looks decent). What's with the small pin that's in one of the holes of the old balancer? My Haynes manual, which covers 78-93 model years, says to swap any pins from the old balancerto new one. The pin was not budging from the old one at all using a 5 lb sledge and punch, so I bought a cold rolled steel rod and made one using a hacksaw. Was this really necessary? I don't see how that little pin could make any difference.
Not knowing what year the motor is. Will the casting numbers answer which weights are required. The motor come without either flywheel or balancer.
You should be able to determine roughly when the engine was made from them. "Ish"
i wish you would have covered cleveland. I think its the same as a the 70ish ones.
Jeff since you brought up a 1985 5.0 .They did not have the same firing order as the early 289/302 did. They had a different camshaft. I wish I still had my 1985 Ford Mustang GT that I bought brand new.
You are correct. That is another video!
Lightweight crank/ one piece seal and W firing order is good thing.
But not cross compatible/ interchangeable.
Std 5.0 up through 1991 used the original 15426378 firing order.
i have a '70 302 that i want to backdate to an earlier (ie 289) look. can i swap a three bolt balancer onto it? i figure yes but thought to ask y'all. i want to go with single groove pullies as well. any advice regarding this idea is very welcomed.
When the change to four bolt balancer occured, Ford moved the timing pointer to passenger side(thus timing marks on four bolt will be incorrect). Water pump outlet moved to to driver side, requiring different pump. Alternator & P/S pump brackets also different and do not readily interchange. I've owned numerous '69 & '70 all were configured as stated. Only '70 three bolt I've seen are the GT 350 Shelbys that were reVINed as '70.
Yes by using a 3 bolt 302 damper. Don't use a 289/260/221 dampers. Obviously all the accessories must match up.
@@hotrodray6802 ok, i wondered about that very thing.
@@tombryant1104 thanks for the heads up. i wondered about the brackets.
Great info - thanks
I have a 302 from what appears the casting is e7te which looks like a truck 87 block. I'm pretty certain it's not a roller setup though, but I haven't confirmed yet. I am changing over to an AOD. This car had a 3 bolt pulley on it, so I always assumed it was a 28oz. Is it possible to setup an 87 block with 28 oz? I'm just wondering what I'm going to have to deal with here with the flywheel.
According to our friends over at CVF Racing: The change over year is generally 1969 for passenger cars and 1977 for pick-up trucks and Broncos.
@@AutoRestoMod Thanks for the reply. I'm going to take the harmonic off to verify and compare based on the info in your videos to know for sure. I just don't know what they have done. I'll probably have to trade this 28oz flexplate for the 50oz
My 62 221 has an ODD 3 groove pully with a tiny balancer. Comes up to 28oz. But the flywheel doesn't have any key to clock it
Does the 260 and 289 and share the same balancer?
Trying to find a replacement for my 63 galaxie with a 260 3 bolt). Dormans site only lists the 289 as fitment for their 594-269 part number balancer but it looks exactly the same as mine from the photos?
Yep.
Maybe.
At least the 221/260/early 5 bolt 289 are 28 oz/in flywheels.
Don't know about the torsional damping because all 3 use the same crankshaft and rods... And piston weights.
Things change with HIPOs and later.
I have a 5.0L from a 2000 explorer to use in a '40 ford. I need to run just the water pump and alternator. Has anyone done this? I'm lost right now.
Which balancer is used on 66 an up 289 ford engines 2 varrel carb.
Hey man, always enjoyed your videos...and comedy.
What are your thoughts on 347 balancing. Some say its not possible with stock 50 oz balancer and yet i have one in my Fairlane from an 84 Mustang.
Tnx.
Well, then I guess it is. I prefer something like a Fluidampr for better balance control. It is what I plan to use in the '64 Falcon.
Yes I plan on changing it for one of those as well. Even though it'll cost me close to a grand CND, it's worth it.
Depends on who made the crank.
I picked up a short block 302 , turns out it a 72 302 block with 289 hipo rotating assembly the balancer was off thick one . Question is there any other other balancers or gears that make the hipo , making sure I have all the parts?? Any info would be appreciated.
Can you do galaxie videos
Yes. There are a few changes to the 390FEs too. And we'll jump back on the Galaxie next week.
I have a supposed to be 89 302 . The balancer i removed slide off . It measured 1.394" on the i.d . The crank measures 1.374" ish . I bought a new balancer from advance auto and it measures 1.974". Engine ran good . Help!
So if I have a 164 tooth flywheel
What once balancer do I go with
Oh boy. Just like you i was trying to do some research on this one myself. Talk about confusing and frustrating. But not really in the way anyone is thinking.
Here's what i was thinking.
Late model 5.0 probably from a explorer. Remove the GT heads and replace with a mildly ported cast iron or off the shelf aluminum. Because the GT's don't fit a 66 mustang without some serious money headers (which i don't have) mind you i don't even have the funds for aluminum cylinder heads.
OK well now we get to the meat of it. Keeping my original C4 but trying to locate a flexplate to fit the 5.0 was frustrating. Maybe i was missing something? But when was able to find something that might work holy moly the amount of money was expensive for it.
A balancer for the 5.0 is available if you want to keep using the three bolt style, but once again it's kinda pricey.
But i finally found what i was looking for and instead of $300-$400+ it's instead somewhere around $170, Much better.
Sorry that i got off topic strictly a backyard car guy,
but it does clear up small issue that i was wondering about.
Thank you.
#1) Don't fall for the propaganda ... The headers for the P heads are no big deal. MOST Conventional headers need only minor denting to clear 2 spark plugs and then use shorter length sparkplugs. A heat sleeve over those 2 boots prevent wire burning. Install the headers, determine which plugs, put a 5/8 socket on an extension, heat the header tube with a torch, apply socket and dent tube for clearance. Like magic.👍
2) flex plates are readily available for $50. You just need to find somebody that knows what you really want
3) Damper applications are specific to crankshaft applications. Just because one fits doesn't mean it's torsional damping correct, even if it's the correct oz/in imbalance. Aftermarket is always better. $$
I've seen mild 302s repeatedly break 3 factory dampers... Split them down the keyways... Yes they were well torqued, just wrong factory type dampers. Aftermarket cured it.
Good point Ray.
i'm having trouble with a new scat stroker engine that i put in a 289 with a Luk 451 flywheel(28OZ) and a harmonic balancer from dorman i think (i think its 28OZ) bu t i have vibrations when not driving just reving past 2000rpm . i have bought another 28OZ flywheel from pioneer and it still vibrates. can a dorman balancer been bad balanced and give me these vibrations? my engine runs on 8 cilinders5see this on the spark plugs) nice video thanks
If I buy 81 ish up 351w block w/50oz and buy an internally balanced crank... should I stll run the 50oz imbalanced flex and harmonic balancer. Do they internally balance to that imbalance? Thanks guys. All your videos are fun and educational!!!
50oz from front to back. Both the Harmonic and the Flex Plate or Flywheel need to be 50oz.
with the transmission still in the car how dose one tell if you have a 28 or 50 oz c4 automatic flex plate I see the weight welded on? 157 tooth
The harmonic balancer is on the front of the engine
will 3 bolt and early 4 bolt balancers interchange
Thay also changed the fiering order on the 81 ish engens
Yep.
Veeeeerry interesting, now I have a headache.
Made mine hurt too.
I'm work a 69/70 mustang with 351c engine ,it has 3 holes & no groves ?
How bad would a 95 5.0HO vibrate if it had the 28oz? About 10 years ago When my 95 GT was my moms before she passed it had the harmonic dampener/Balancer replaced, on the original the outer ring became loose and was wobbling, I don't remember which one was installed the 28 or 50, It has a vibration at 4000ish up, it's not terrible but bad enough I avoid high revs. It's not rattling my teeth out but noticably not smooth that I know something is off. I'm a Chevy guy so Fords are a mystery to me.
You would notice the imbalance pretty much across the board. It may have a driveline vibration. My 1990 did. I moved to an aluminum driveshaft and it mitigated it.
@@AutoRestoMod na I crawled in there looks like has the big notch so guess it's the 50oz. It's definitely in the engine or clutch it does it in neutral also. I'm lost, the bad balancer was really bad I crawled under it running on ramps looking for a short on main power wire and I looked up and it was wobbling bad I'd say one good high rpm buzz that outer ring would have flown off, fortunately the vibration made high revs undesirable. Wondering as a shit in dark if it did something like maybe hammered the front bearings causing the higher rpm vibration? Never heard of that but I'm doing shot in dark guesses. but it has great oil pressure... Guess it's yank it out time it has a bad rear main leaks bad over 4.5 quarts. Then I can change out the Pistons too to allow bigger valves I really want the AFR 185 or E street vs having to use 165s.or fly cut the reliefs rather not do it. Thanks for reply...✌️
What is the difference in the balance of the std 1966 289 balancer and the 1966 289 hipo balancer?
The HiPo and indeed the Boss 302 harmonic ring is larger for greater damping effect at high RPM.
You forgot to add early sbf had timing marks in different locations depending on lower radiator hose placement.....- and I have a Napa rebuild late 70’s 302 with a larger thicker balancer than normal? There are a lot of Ford “ish” isms ....
Good info:
Don’t forget about the 289 hipo which had 50oz imbalance with that “pie shaped” plate behind the damper. Yeah, another “ish” added to the list.
HIPO had a30.4 oz. imbalace, not 50 oz..
Ok here's one if you can answer it I bought a used 302 when I looked up the block it was 87ish but how do you know the crank year crank info SMW stamp/2MAE/20C That's all I could find thinking it's a 50 oz
Hey man my 96 f150 5.0 has the 4 ping harmonic balancer anf i guess they dont make them no more so what can i do
So ot a regular harmonic with a star shaped thing on the back
Hey guys I am using a 1996 ford explorer 5.0 engines in my project
My question is can I run a 1990 - 1993 mustang 5.0 harmic balancer because it is different
From the explorer and what fly wheel do I need.
I want to use the 90-93 front accessories if I can . thanks
Funny!!! My 79 F150 302 after some engine tear down, I found it to have a 81 engine with a 50 oz vibration damper. It was verified by damper dudes.
Yup! Old vehicles get molested, changed and people will swear nothing is changed. But if that 1968 car got a
1984 engine in 1986...the new engine is now 36 years old. And if driven, it will be well seasoned. I played the imbalance game in 1986 on a Cougar with a 5.0 HO. That was fun.
And can they be interchanged?
The 260 is different, as is the 302.
How do you know if you have to use the plate that’s between the engine and transmission? Bought a 302 ford engine that came from Jegs. Don’t have any paperwork.
As far as I know there is always a separator plate. The style depends on whether it's an auto or manual trans. The auto trans has the access plate for tightening the converter bolts while the manual trans plate is solid at the bottom.
MANDATORY
It holds the starter. 😳
Thanks
Keep this up Ray Imma make you and admin so you can answer these and allow me to drink my morning coffee in peace. 😄
There are two different plates. You must use the plate that matches your bell housing. Your flywheel or your flex plate must match as well. The 164 tooth bell housing and spacer plate will have the nearest starter bolt farther away from the nearest bell housing bolt. In other words, if you have a 157 tooth ring flywheel or flex plate paired with a 164 bell housing and spacer plate, the starter drive gear will not engage with the ring. The starter will just spin.
Windsor harmonic dampers could have 3 different sets of timing marks. Not all aftermarket dampers have all three sets.
Agreed.
EVERY damper, new or used, the timing mark should be verified by a piston stop.
Why?
What if the crank keyway is off a little... And the damper keyway is off a little... And the ring is off a little 🤔🤔🤔 There might be a 5* error in timing.... Even if the ring has not slipped. Hhhmmmmm.
Do I detect a little frustration? Maybe need a little rest?
It's called Fordstration. It makes me the kinda tired that rest can't fix. LOL
So…every year was a transition year? 🤕
221 to 302 are small block. The 351 is really the only one Ford called Windsor.
Hey guys I’m running 90 5.0 motor in my 66 ford mustang it has to be 50 oz 3bolt crankshaft pulley damper also have to change your water pump an timing cover to a 66 order a new oil dipstick make sure u order a cut off plate for your mechanical fuel pump
If your running a electric fuel pump like I am,
also oil pan has to be from a 66 so it can clear steering leakage hope I can help any one u guys out 🤝 also Go to CJ pony ask for guy name Jerry he knows his stuff got me all hooked up I’ll post a video of mine once I’m done also, I’m running a four barrel carburetor part number is 1407 and running my edelbrock intake manifold part number is 2121 with a set of GT 40 P heads four bar also have Shorty headers. Can’t forget about that E303 cam as well. Also boarded out to a 308 stock crankshaft
Just gotta mention it....
The 28 and 50 oz/in balance is for the flywheel ends only.
Actually the dampers themselves are NOT 28 or 50 but must coordinate to match each type crankshaft.
Ive forgotten but one is like 16 and the other 24.
THAT vibration diffrence is not as noticeable as the flywheel end mistake****
Another reason to watch what you have.
Ever see a Mopar expert put a 318 torque converter on a 360?
Holy shxt. 😱😱😱
What about Cleveland?
Aside from the Boss 351, 351HO and the 351Cobra Jet, the Cleveland stayed with the same twenty-eight ounce imbalance throughout the life of the engines.
@@AutoRestoMod excellent, thank you
see i bin hearing different i heard 82 and newer was 28oz not a 50oz
260's and 289's do not have the same balancers... And to add on, the 1962/3 260Ci (using 221 connecting rods) are 24.5 oz while the 1964 260's are 26.2 oz because Ford used the 289 rods. The earlier 289Ci used then 28oz balancing.
Thanks for the clarification.
I have a question.... if someone knows the answer I'd appreciate it....
Jford@autorestomod.com
Bloody hell how confusing is this??
Good job those. Thanks
Terrifyingly. Unlike GM, Ford changed stuff seemingly perpetually.
Dealing with this now lol
I want to add to your "ISSH" You forgot the 1st gen Ford Bronco V-8 it ran 3 bolt all the way till 1977
😲 never seen one
Honestly didn't know that!
The last thing we need is an unbalanced Jeff Ford.
Too late.
413x398 is right.
Clear as mud ISH!!! LOL
HA!
Check your dipstick
Feels good to me.
I thought this was a family show. 😂😂😂
He doesn’t have a drinking problem YET!! Keep working on FORD with FORD it’s coming…….
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Ford went to a lighter weight crank with the 50 ounce imbalance.
Yes.
Mass confusion.....hehehe!
I see what you did there!
102k EZ