For me, Whiterun was important because it was the hub town and there are a LOT of merchants. Location matters more than aesthetics. The ability to easily offload loot is also key.
That's a really good idea. Having NPCs that the party has saved come and join the home town/player base as the game progresses. I've seen this (or something similar to it) done so many times in video games. I'm slapping myself in the head for not realizing this sooner.
I helped a bunch of orcs repair their spaceship once after they kidnapped my ranger. Somehow I ended up hirering them with their spaceship to fight necrons and demons. Felt great! You just need to figure out the motivations for those NPCs. They have to lose everything they could go back to, have a strong sense of owing the players, be interested in what they are doing or can provide, ...
Yes. Trekiros is one of my top favorite D&D YTers. All of his videos are so well done and thought out, as well as always trying to give unique advice or ideas that most others don’t either know or consider
The word that kept coming back to my mind was “hub.” The hub where your adventurers return between adventures. Downtime can be a powerful way for players to get invested in the world, especially as they befriend NPCs who may need help in the future.
One idea I had for the outside world affecting the home base was attacking a religious festival outside of town. I had dozens of commoners there, and when the horde of sahuagin attacked, I told my players that for each commoner they helped escape, I'd create a fully fleshed out NPC who would become part of the town. Dang players saved 17 out of 20, so we have an EXTREMELY fleshed out town with literally dozens of named characters. I barely need to prep anymore because the players just say, "Hey, let's go talk to that guy that runs the egg cart in the market and see if he has any quests for us." And that's what we do that day.
This is interesting for me to think about as the campaign I'm planning right now has both a lot of towns/cities as well as a central hub area the party returns back to between missions.
And if you like the zombies, you can integrate them by having them be guards of the town that tried and failed to take down the necromancer, or long dead relatives to the town’s NPCs you meet. Then, when the party defeats the necromancer, they can be put to rest and one or more of their relatives are inspired to take up guarding the town. Or, the undead don’t die after the necromancer is gone, and now you have fun skeleton guards that protect the town.
Watched this with pleasure, taking notes. Also translated and re-telled all video for my non English speaking husband who is a GM too. We had a lot to discuss after. Thank you!
it was such a nice way to do it instead of the usual begging and guilting that makes you feel exploited. this one felt like a friendly suggestion without pressure, and with the attitude "if you don't sub that's fine, I'll work hard to earn it next time." - instant sub.
This is my first video. I have been working on making my version of D&Ds Nightstone. And filling it with hooks from different people. This was great help
I only regret not watching this video soon! I have to admit I've been getting really jaded with DnD youtube after all these years but you consistently throw interesting stuff and I love ya for it
By far the most welcome feature in my current campaign has been letting my players start a company, hire notable NPCs, and construct a home base. They frankly enjoy it more than all the rest, and genuinely love their ship's crew
You are so right about the towns and villages being the heart of the world. I cannot count how many times I was fighting a big bad and thinking, "I can't let down X NPC..."
I've been pondering what scale of civilization in which to set the start of an adventure I'm working on. I was leaning towards something small, and this has helped me confirm that seems like the right choice. Also the idea of changing that zombie side quest to relate to both the main quest and also affect the town, just brilliant!
Expanding on your last point, letting your players have a teeny tiny amount of direct influence on the development of the town is a great way to introduce strongholds without overwhelming the party. If you just go "The duke awarded you all this hamlet, time to be minor lords now!" then at least some of your party is going to (justifiably) gripe about the sudden lack of dungeon crawling. But if instead during one session the party helps establish a bakery for a friendly NPC, and sends some rare flour their way because it showed up on a random loot table, then suddenly they're generating passive income and seeing firsthand the results of their influence. And the next session they might go out of their way to set up defenses for the surrounding farmlands so they can get more flour, and bit by bit they've made the town their stronghold without ever losing the "feel" of being adventurers!
Yup, totally - I feel like I could have worded it better, but that last point is more about letting the players own a home, rather than the entire town
VIdeo after video you keep delivering high quality content. A lot of stuff you taught like stealth or mass combat or zombie apocylpse I've incorporated into my games, and players loved it! Keep up the good work :D
"If this is the first video you're ever watching you might not bother to subscribe" HA jokes on you I WILL subscribe after the first video because it's a banger!
To be honest I'm already glad to be doing this well! I have some health issues which only allow me to make one video a month even though this is the closest thing to a full time job I have right now... and UA-cam doesn't look kindly on monthly uploads unfortunately 😅
Another asset for Whiterun is centrality in the region and a good balance of vendors and ease of navigation. Other places with easy layouts either don't have enough vendors or are out in the middle of nowhere. Other places with more vendors have difficult and confusing layouts and are along the egdes of the map.
this made a lot of sense. the thing I hate most in games is having cool places that have no functionality. a location looking nice or epic doesn't matter if you can't interact with it and hopefully even affect its state. and it doesn't necessarily have to be big things, even small things make it feel immersive, like it's there for a purpose and not just for show. like it has a life of its own.
I firmly believes no one actually gives a poop about the story or characters of Skyrim. The reason why players like White Run in Skyrim is that it's located in the center of the world map which means it has good proximity to every other major locations and it's got all your needs (shops, crafting stations, etc.) and they're easy to find and get to.
And also the game just takes you there every time you start a new game. Even though everyone goes to Riverwood first, White Run is Skyrim's "first town"
At the start of my campaign, I used Dungeondraft to make maps, but for three years now, I've been using Inkarnate, and I actually don't really want to go back. True, the former still has useful tools or utilities (like a tool to create water shapes or the ability to import other fonts that work with my language), but the latter is still the best overall. Like you said, there are new tools to create lines and shapes, a whole new sci-fi style, and there will be more to come, I'm sure, before the end of this year. As for other parts of the video, yeah, high-quality content as always. I always liked some sort of hub where players return from time to time and can see how their actions (and inactions) affect the hub and NPC. Main inspiration being hubs in DS1-3, but Hollow Knight and Hades as well. I even think now that if I did some planning ahead, I would change how the campaign I am running would start to make one town a "hub." And for advice, I certainly would use it! Actually, analyzing "what games did and what you can learn from them" is a great thing. It's true that Skyrim is old and it's showing; it's true that some elements in it aren't working properly, but many things in it can and were a good example of "how to do ____"
So. In the dragon age Inquisition game. The house of hades model was followed. But you only got the hub later in the story. It felt souless in some ways. If you do the build you hub. Setting it up so that you still get the white run quests pop up in you path is the best plan.... ++ Be very specific about where you put you fast travel into you hub. Allow the changes to be seen when you move through the hub. + Quests to do the same.
0:32 "the first thing your town needs is a map." I firmly believe your town absolutely does not need a map. You could use a grid to show the scale and distinct areas in a town, and then list the specific locations in each area. Or you can just use the list by itself.
By the way, I don't recommend using Inkarnate with mobile devices such as a tablet. It is designed to be used on a home computer and therefore using it on a mobile device is difficult and pain if not impossible. But otherwise it's a good tool for making maps.
Why is it that in Trekiros' videos next to always there's a point where I think 'of course, why didn't anyone tell me earlier'?! Probably they did and I just didn't listen but anyway ;) Great video, as always!
First video of yours for me. Sub'd! Very well done info. Will check out your others. Also I am GM in a fallout campaign so definitely interested in tools, ideas, etc for that type of non fantasy setting.
I'm curious as to whether there is a similar line of thinking behind the city states and "end-game hubs" in ffxiv in that, depsite how interesting and unique each new area is, players tend to gravitate back to Limsa Lominsa even 10 years later
Really cool video! I think it is cool to see the philosophy vhange between Phandalin, Whiterun and Hades. Where the first wanted to make sure you definetly can notice everything, the second one only told you a sidestory if you stumble upon the NPCs talking and Hades gives you a nudge into the direction - the Contractor is in the center of the house and if you buy something important, the camera moves to that area.
Who knew that making a location that can be realistically lived in actually is the best approach? I really like your idea for the Old Owl Well. It works a lot better than the original encounter. I usually run the central hub of the campaign in a way that the players see their contributions reflected in it. Either by making it their home, or by having them travel through the same area more than once. What I don't like about Phandalin's map is that they failed to actually label the important buildings, like the smithy and the manor on the player map (yet inexplicably the mayor's house is). Also, where is the well? Addtionally, no building is actually shown in detail, only the basement of the manor has its own map. Compare the descriptions of Thundertree. The map of the Old Owl Well you are showing is a fan-made one. The book itself does not have a map of that location, and passes it off as 'only having one or two points of interest, so you can make it yourself'. This theme repeats throughout the books. Another location that doesn't have a map is Connyberry. There are several quests around it, yet it has no map, and absolutely no information about the city's history or people who lived there. It's a joke. Whiterun is the most popular town also in large part because it's the first one you visit. That means people who never visited any other city would have been in there.
Wait, doesn’t that timeline mean Whiterun existed before Phandelin? I haven’t played either, but it seems like a Whiterun isn’t an evolution from Phandelin, but rather an expression of the difference between medium. I do like the observation of plot hooks each getting their own encounter versus all being rolled into an exposition dump in a single encounter, and that the value of a town grows relative to how much plot driving interaction occurs.
TTRPG design and video game design have a few shared actors, but they've largely developed independently, without looking much at one another. So you often end up with cases like this where designers on one side of the divide end up reinventing the wooden wheel 5 years after someone else on the other side created the first rubber tire. That's one of the things I hope to alleviate with this channel.
Not a criticism but I feel like the whiterun statistic would mostly come down its intention as the first town you come across. First playthrough the emotion is high you’re 0% burned out and it’s one the first major locations. Still loved the advice from the vid but just had the thought
It thought too... Until I remembered the first town you encounter in Skyrim is actually Riverwood, which is nowhere near Whiterun in terms of popularity 😅 But yeah, that does definitely play a role
I taught a class on Town and Module design as a workshop. This guy named Gary Gygax showed up and I showed him how Hommlet basically sucked and the module, but if you take N1 module and you merge these two models together, so events happen, a cult is doing their cultist thang, and so there is very much something interesting going on in Hommlet, turns out a cult connected to the Elemental elder god is doing their cultist best to grow the cult up to the point the forces of Chaos can rise again like the South. Gary learned a lot from that suggestion and said to me "Wow, man, you clearly know how to fix my module. Thank you. I will go and playtest this with Luke my son in a couple weeks as I prep." I responded "you are most welcome goodly sir. Also good job running TSR, you should focus on adventure design and don't try to go to Hollywood. You might get a DnD cartoon TV show, but all the good DnD movies are way in the future so don't spend the money. Hollywood has a way of ruining careers. Gary clapped back "Duly noted, good food for thought to keep in mind, yeah Los Angels is a garbage town full of mostly garbage people I will stick to Lake Geneva. Did you know they have a Playboy Club here. This will be the perfect place to host a Gen Con. I bet I can get TSR to sign on to that. This summer's Gen Con will be the best ever.
Skyrim shows that lore is important. Phandalin has no lore behind the village. The GM gets no information about the village and can't make up stories that fit. In Whiterun the lore shines through. And that makes it easier to come up with interesting quests. And for the GM to answer any question the player has...
I'm starting a campaign I've run for a few years for a new group. It starts in a city and they'll return there, so an urban campaign video would be very interesting! But throughout the video I realised the city is probably not their home base that I should try to apply this stuff to, it's the ship they leave the city in. So I guess my challenge is to make a ship function like a town 🤔
That right there is one of the reasons I enjoyed running a pirate campaign so much. My players felt a real sense of ownership over their ship by customizing it, hiring its crew, repairing it after a battle, etc... They even named it after a thing they did within the story
@@Trekiros Ooh you just helped me figure out something! The first group was never THAT into the ship or the crew, but it's probably because I basically gifted them as part of their on-the-seas quest. So I had to have both ready to go do something else, which means neither were prepared that deeply. Of course they players sensed this and didn't get that invested, or feel any sense of ownership. I might make it a quest for the new group to gather the crew, and think of some customization options for the ship. Thanks man, you get me thinking about this stuff more deeply, which is exactly what I need!
BF 2042’s launch has caused me to adopt a “no more pre-orders” stance to not only the Battlefield franchise but all other video games as well as my other hobbies. Severely disappointing and I haven’t touched 2042 since.
You bandy around the word "generic" too much. There's nothing terribly generic about Whiterun, and I have been to dozens of "not generic" fantasy villages that were ridiculous and tedious. A town means people and buildings -- that's not "generic," that's what a town is.
Ok, enough is enough! Medieval tolkier rip off is NOT fantasy! It's just a rip off Fantasy is Howard, Moorcock and Mieville, too! I just cant stand it anymore
Yeah i am definitely gonna throw quest hooks non-stop every time the party enters and leaves the town so they can not accomplished anything by havin 200 different things to think about....surely it's not gonna backfire XD
6:05 Gotta disagree here when it comes to aesthetics. It’s not just the quests - Windhelm and Markarth have a lot of quests in them. Whiterun is likely the most popular city simply because there’s half a dozen different traders all close(within an acceptable running distance least) to a player home. Same reason Riften is highly ranked - lots of useful vendors close together where the Thieve’s Guild is. Dawnstar, Morthal, Winterhold and Falkreath all have low votes because they all only have 1-2 traders - and not great ones at that. Personally, Markarth is one of the worst cities to me because several of the quests there are long and annoying, lots of running between the merchants, and the region outside it is dangerous. 12:40 Immediately thought of The Witcher 3, which gets almost zero attention in this video. Giant map to explore, and towns dot the map, but most of them only have a single trader and little to no other use.
I always appreciate your quality versus quantity this was a fantastic video and I'm going to be recommending it to my daughter for sure. I curate a whole pile of stuff for her, but I'm pretty specific.
wow, just yesterday I was watching Mythic Bastionland and thats exactly how mr McDowall designed main quests there. They are not always related to a city from what I understand but by traveling around the region you slowly uncover each quest in 6 steps. At the end there is a big event that may change the map.
Pretty sure this is the 1st video of yours that I've ever seen. You've hooked me. I subscribed. LOL Seriously, you've packed some great information into this one. I appreciate the tips.
The starting town in my new campaign is being rebuilt from war damage. I plan to have the party be able to donate gold to the town and help them rebuild throughout the campaign. The party will be minor lords/ladies for the town, and will have a bit of control over what gets built.
Hi, first time in your channel, i love it i really want to see about the urban campains,new sub :) (btw im brazilian, the 1-7 still hurt, but you are forgiven)
I love dissecting Bethesda games - they try a LOT of things, so they do a LOT right, and they do a LOT wrong, and as a game designer that gives me a LOT of things to learn from.
I’m very picky with which DM advice content I subscribe to, and while I did not learn anything from this one video, you presented it in such a manner that I know I will in other videos. Look forward to seeing
I had a note on my script that said "Pronounce this Zah, not Zay". I still said "Zay". I am a shame to my flying eyeball construct family.
For me, Whiterun was important because it was the hub town and there are a LOT of merchants. Location matters more than aesthetics. The ability to easily offload loot is also key.
That's a really good idea. Having NPCs that the party has saved come and join the home town/player base as the game progresses. I've seen this (or something similar to it) done so many times in video games. I'm slapping myself in the head for not realizing this sooner.
One of the dnd pc games let you work with a giant spider who could move into your basement.
I helped a bunch of orcs repair their spaceship once after they kidnapped my ranger. Somehow I ended up hirering them with their spaceship to fight necrons and demons.
Felt great!
You just need to figure out the motivations for those NPCs.
They have to lose everything they could go back to, have a strong sense of owing the players, be interested in what they are doing or can provide, ...
Surely I was just waiting for this video to finally create my towns and it was not my laziness
Hope you found some inspiration in there!
As always, I was expecting the usual generic advices, but you gave us a masterclass !
Thank you! I try my best to make the kind of videos I would want to watch 😄
(This is a joke) Then why are you still expecting generic advice by now? 😜
Yes. Trekiros is one of my top favorite D&D YTers. All of his videos are so well done and thought out, as well as always trying to give unique advice or ideas that most others don’t either know or consider
The word that kept coming back to my mind was “hub.” The hub where your adventurers return between adventures. Downtime can be a powerful way for players to get invested in the world, especially as they befriend NPCs who may need help in the future.
You are certainly right about the quality of your videos. Almost every one of them leaves me with inspiration to build out my D&D world
Glad to help!
I did NOT expect Hades to show up in this video about fantasy towns, this guy keeps giving us things we didn't even know we needed yet
One idea I had for the outside world affecting the home base was attacking a religious festival outside of town. I had dozens of commoners there, and when the horde of sahuagin attacked, I told my players that for each commoner they helped escape, I'd create a fully fleshed out NPC who would become part of the town.
Dang players saved 17 out of 20, so we have an EXTREMELY fleshed out town with literally dozens of named characters. I barely need to prep anymore because the players just say, "Hey, let's go talk to that guy that runs the egg cart in the market and see if he has any quests for us." And that's what we do that day.
This is interesting for me to think about as the campaign I'm planning right now has both a lot of towns/cities as well as a central hub area the party returns back to between missions.
Great piece on designing narrative hooks through effective worldbuilding and town design.
And if you like the zombies, you can integrate them by having them be guards of the town that tried and failed to take down the necromancer, or long dead relatives to the town’s NPCs you meet.
Then, when the party defeats the necromancer, they can be put to rest and one or more of their relatives are inspired to take up guarding the town. Or, the undead don’t die after the necromancer is gone, and now you have fun skeleton guards that protect the town.
I needed this so much
great video dude! i’d love to see you cover urban campaigns as i’m trying to build a homebrew one for my friends!
Watched this with pleasure, taking notes. Also translated and re-telled all video for my non English speaking husband who is a GM too. We had a lot to discuss after. Thank you!
Damnit the “I’ll get you next time” got me 😂
😈
it was such a nice way to do it instead of the usual begging and guilting that makes you feel exploited. this one felt like a friendly suggestion without pressure, and with the attitude "if you don't sub that's fine, I'll work hard to earn it next time." - instant sub.
This is my first video. I have been working on making my version of D&Ds Nightstone. And filling it with hooks from different people. This was great help
I only regret not watching this video soon! I have to admit I've been getting really jaded with DnD youtube after all these years but you consistently throw interesting stuff and I love ya for it
The last thing I was expecting to see in a D&D video was a reference to that infamous 7x1. That’s pure cruelty.
Scrolling through that wikipedia page about notable events in 2014, the inner archfey in me was filled with glee when I saw that bullet point
David Luiz “just wanted to bring happiness to his people”, dude. Do you have no heart? 😢
I love that you said "fighting dungeons and exploring dragons". I had to run it back to make sure i heard it right lol
Me too! 😂
By far the most welcome feature in my current campaign has been letting my players start a company, hire notable NPCs, and construct a home base. They frankly enjoy it more than all the rest, and genuinely love their ship's crew
Inkarnate sponsor? Awesome :D
I use Inkarnate to make maps... for money. The 2.0 beta has some cool stuff.
You are so right about the towns and villages being the heart of the world. I cannot count how many times I was fighting a big bad and thinking, "I can't let down X NPC..."
You were right, Trekiros. This is the second of your videos that I've watched and it got me to subscribe! Great content, by the way.
I've been pondering what scale of civilization in which to set the start of an adventure I'm working on. I was leaning towards something small, and this has helped me confirm that seems like the right choice. Also the idea of changing that zombie side quest to relate to both the main quest and also affect the town, just brilliant!
Amazing video! Great insight given with examples from Skyrim. Love Inkarnate too so will defo stay tuned for some content!
Expanding on your last point, letting your players have a teeny tiny amount of direct influence on the development of the town is a great way to introduce strongholds without overwhelming the party. If you just go "The duke awarded you all this hamlet, time to be minor lords now!" then at least some of your party is going to (justifiably) gripe about the sudden lack of dungeon crawling.
But if instead during one session the party helps establish a bakery for a friendly NPC, and sends some rare flour their way because it showed up on a random loot table, then suddenly they're generating passive income and seeing firsthand the results of their influence. And the next session they might go out of their way to set up defenses for the surrounding farmlands so they can get more flour, and bit by bit they've made the town their stronghold without ever losing the "feel" of being adventurers!
Yup, totally - I feel like I could have worded it better, but that last point is more about letting the players own a home, rather than the entire town
Thank you for the city summary
Thank you for braking down this topic. It was really inspiring for my current campaign!
VIdeo after video you keep delivering high quality content. A lot of stuff you taught like stealth or mass combat or zombie apocylpse I've incorporated into my games, and players loved it!
Keep up the good work :D
I appreciate that, thank you!
Great info. Your stuff is always so usable!
We tried the new Bastion rules in our TotDQ campaign, and it really helped us connect to Waterdeep.
Another fantastic video! Always excited to see what you come up with!
Your insights are so important to game design it's scary
"If this is the first video you're ever watching you might not bother to subscribe"
HA jokes on you I WILL subscribe after the first video because it's a banger!
I love your videos, you summarize so well the thoughts of so many dm's
This channel is so cool, I am now attracted to modrons
love nemrod's work
It's mind blowing to me you are not a more popular channel.
To be honest I'm already glad to be doing this well!
I have some health issues which only allow me to make one video a month even though this is the closest thing to a full time job I have right now... and UA-cam doesn't look kindly on monthly uploads unfortunately 😅
Another asset for Whiterun is centrality in the region and a good balance of vendors and ease of navigation. Other places with easy layouts either don't have enough vendors or are out in the middle of nowhere. Other places with more vendors have difficult and confusing layouts and are along the egdes of the map.
"Exploring" Dragons? 🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨🤨
ayoooooo
this made a lot of sense. the thing I hate most in games is having cool places that have no functionality. a location looking nice or epic doesn't matter if you can't interact with it and hopefully even affect its state. and it doesn't necessarily have to be big things, even small things make it feel immersive, like it's there for a purpose and not just for show. like it has a life of its own.
I firmly believes no one actually gives a poop about the story or characters of Skyrim. The reason why players like White Run in Skyrim is that it's located in the center of the world map which means it has good proximity to every other major locations and it's got all your needs (shops, crafting stations, etc.) and they're easy to find and get to.
And also the game just takes you there every time you start a new game. Even though everyone goes to Riverwood first, White Run is Skyrim's "first town"
Thats such bs
I disagree. Well… The NPCs are pretty shallow, but I do enjoy the stories, aesthetic, and charm.
I enjoy all of Trekiros videos
looks like you got me on the first viewing. glad i found you.
Damn, that 7-1 still hurts
At the start of my campaign, I used Dungeondraft to make maps, but for three years now, I've been using Inkarnate, and I actually don't really want to go back. True, the former still has useful tools or utilities (like a tool to create water shapes or the ability to import other fonts that work with my language), but the latter is still the best overall. Like you said, there are new tools to create lines and shapes, a whole new sci-fi style, and there will be more to come, I'm sure, before the end of this year.
As for other parts of the video, yeah, high-quality content as always. I always liked some sort of hub where players return from time to time and can see how their actions (and inactions) affect the hub and NPC. Main inspiration being hubs in DS1-3, but Hollow Knight and Hades as well. I even think now that if I did some planning ahead, I would change how the campaign I am running would start to make one town a "hub."
And for advice, I certainly would use it! Actually, analyzing "what games did and what you can learn from them" is a great thing. It's true that Skyrim is old and it's showing; it's true that some elements in it aren't working properly, but many things in it can and were a good example of "how to do ____"
Great job buddy!
Thanks!
@@Trekiros BTW, I'm mentioning you in an upcoming video. Should be available this weekend or early next week. I have several I'm finishing up.
@@welovettrpgs Oh, I'm curious what you're cooking up
I'd love to see a video on city campaigns
First video I've seen. Hooked me in and subbed!
So.
In the dragon age Inquisition game.
The house of hades model was followed.
But you only got the hub later in the story.
It felt souless in some ways.
If you do the build you hub.
Setting it up so that you still get the white run quests pop up in you path is the best plan....
++ Be very specific about where you put you fast travel into you hub.
Allow the changes to be seen when you move through the hub. + Quests to do the same.
0:32 "the first thing your town needs is a map."
I firmly believe your town absolutely does not need a map. You could use a grid to show the scale and distinct areas in a town, and then list the specific locations in each area. Or you can just use the list by itself.
By the way, I don't recommend using Inkarnate with mobile devices such as a tablet. It is designed to be used on a home computer and therefore using it on a mobile device is difficult and pain if not impossible. But otherwise it's a good tool for making maps.
3:39 as a Brazilian i feel personally attacked xD
I've only touched Inkarnate a handful of times. I might give it a look over again since there's some city maps I need to get done.
Why is it that in Trekiros' videos next to always there's a point where I think 'of course, why didn't anyone tell me earlier'?! Probably they did and I just didn't listen but anyway ;) Great video, as always!
This was a great video
Lets go get good advice and have a good time doing it
First video of yours for me. Sub'd! Very well done info. Will check out your others.
Also I am GM in a fallout campaign so definitely interested in tools, ideas, etc for that type of non fantasy setting.
I'm curious as to whether there is a similar line of thinking behind the city states and "end-game hubs" in ffxiv in that, depsite how interesting and unique each new area is, players tend to gravitate back to Limsa Lominsa even 10 years later
Really cool video!
I think it is cool to see the philosophy vhange between Phandalin, Whiterun and Hades. Where the first wanted to make sure you definetly can notice everything, the second one only told you a sidestory if you stumble upon the NPCs talking and Hades gives you a nudge into the direction - the Contractor is in the center of the house and if you buy something important, the camera moves to that area.
Who knew that making a location that can be realistically lived in actually is the best approach? I really like your idea for the Old Owl Well. It works a lot better than the original encounter. I usually run the central hub of the campaign in a way that the players see their contributions reflected in it. Either by making it their home, or by having them travel through the same area more than once.
What I don't like about Phandalin's map is that they failed to actually label the important buildings, like the smithy and the manor on the player map (yet inexplicably the mayor's house is). Also, where is the well? Addtionally, no building is actually shown in detail, only the basement of the manor has its own map. Compare the descriptions of Thundertree.
The map of the Old Owl Well you are showing is a fan-made one. The book itself does not have a map of that location, and passes it off as 'only having one or two points of interest, so you can make it yourself'. This theme repeats throughout the books. Another location that doesn't have a map is Connyberry. There are several quests around it, yet it has no map, and absolutely no information about the city's history or people who lived there. It's a joke.
Whiterun is the most popular town also in large part because it's the first one you visit. That means people who never visited any other city would have been in there.
Ngl i saw the modron and hit the sub button 👏👏👏
Early Incarnate user too!
Wait, doesn’t that timeline mean Whiterun existed before Phandelin? I haven’t played either, but it seems like a Whiterun isn’t an evolution from Phandelin, but rather an expression of the difference between medium. I do like the observation of plot hooks each getting their own encounter versus all being rolled into an exposition dump in a single encounter, and that the value of a town grows relative to how much plot driving interaction occurs.
TTRPG design and video game design have a few shared actors, but they've largely developed independently, without looking much at one another. So you often end up with cases like this where designers on one side of the divide end up reinventing the wooden wheel 5 years after someone else on the other side created the first rubber tire.
That's one of the things I hope to alleviate with this channel.
@@Trekiros You make good metaphor, sir!
Not a criticism but I feel like the whiterun statistic would mostly come down its intention as the first town you come across. First playthrough the emotion is high you’re 0% burned out and it’s one the first major locations. Still loved the advice from the vid but just had the thought
It thought too... Until I remembered the first town you encounter in Skyrim is actually Riverwood, which is nowhere near Whiterun in terms of popularity 😅
But yeah, that does definitely play a role
Inkarnate is S tier.
I taught a class on Town and Module design as a workshop. This guy named Gary Gygax showed up and I showed him how Hommlet basically sucked and the module, but if you take N1 module and you merge these two models together, so events happen, a cult is doing their cultist thang, and so there is very much something interesting going on in Hommlet, turns out a cult connected to the Elemental elder god is doing their cultist best to grow the cult up to the point the forces of Chaos can rise again like the South.
Gary learned a lot from that suggestion and said to me "Wow, man, you clearly know how to fix my module. Thank you. I will go and playtest this with Luke my son in a couple weeks as I prep." I responded "you are most welcome goodly sir. Also good job running TSR, you should focus on adventure design and don't try to go to Hollywood. You might get a DnD cartoon TV show, but all the good DnD movies are way in the future so don't spend the money. Hollywood has a way of ruining careers.
Gary clapped back "Duly noted, good food for thought to keep in mind, yeah Los Angels is a garbage town full of mostly garbage people I will stick to Lake Geneva. Did you know they have a Playboy Club here. This will be the perfect place to host a Gen Con. I bet I can get TSR to sign on to that. This summer's Gen Con will be the best ever.
Please make a video about urban campaigns. I'd like yo run something in a fantasy Rome but I don't know ehere to start.
Excelent!
Skyrim shows that lore is important. Phandalin has no lore behind the village. The GM gets no information about the village and can't make up stories that fit. In Whiterun the lore shines through. And that makes it easier to come up with interesting quests. And for the GM to answer any question the player has...
Will the web page print the maps you make out and mail them to you?
3:39 why do you have to remember this?? lmao
Do you get to the cloud district very often? Oh, what am I saying, of course you don't.
Ironically, the least interesting part of Whiterun... because we aren't given reasons to go there very often
Nazeem was right all along
I'm starting a campaign I've run for a few years for a new group. It starts in a city and they'll return there, so an urban campaign video would be very interesting! But throughout the video I realised the city is probably not their home base that I should try to apply this stuff to, it's the ship they leave the city in. So I guess my challenge is to make a ship function like a town 🤔
That right there is one of the reasons I enjoyed running a pirate campaign so much. My players felt a real sense of ownership over their ship by customizing it, hiring its crew, repairing it after a battle, etc...
They even named it after a thing they did within the story
@@Trekiros Ooh you just helped me figure out something! The first group was never THAT into the ship or the crew, but it's probably because I basically gifted them as part of their on-the-seas quest. So I had to have both ready to go do something else, which means neither were prepared that deeply. Of course they players sensed this and didn't get that invested, or feel any sense of ownership.
I might make it a quest for the new group to gather the crew, and think of some customization options for the ship.
Thanks man, you get me thinking about this stuff more deeply, which is exactly what I need!
let's gooooooo
Ahh! The anime girl jumpscare at 7:30 xD
3:41
Not the brazil vs germany 😭😭😭
No sir, you have not seen medieval villages in real life.
BF 2042’s launch has caused me to adopt a “no more pre-orders” stance to not only the Battlefield franchise but all other video games as well as my other hobbies. Severely disappointing and I haven’t touched 2042 since.
I am Brazilian and I want to ask, why is it necessary to mention the 7-1? It triggers us.
@@eduardomacedo9815 sorry for your loss.
You bandy around the word "generic" too much. There's nothing terribly generic about Whiterun, and I have been to dozens of "not generic" fantasy villages that were ridiculous and tedious. A town means people and buildings -- that's not "generic," that's what a town is.
He was a generic guy, you know, eyes near the top, feet at the bottom.
he describes 2 dnd villages then talks about skyrim forever...
move on.
Ok, enough is enough!
Medieval tolkier rip off is NOT fantasy!
It's just a rip off
Fantasy is Howard, Moorcock and Mieville, too!
I just cant stand it anymore
Yeah i am definitely gonna throw quest hooks non-stop every time the party enters and leaves the town so they can not accomplished anything by havin 200 different things to think about....surely it's not gonna backfire XD
6:05 Gotta disagree here when it comes to aesthetics. It’s not just the quests - Windhelm and Markarth have a lot of quests in them. Whiterun is likely the most popular city simply because there’s half a dozen different traders all close(within an acceptable running distance least) to a player home. Same reason Riften is highly ranked - lots of useful vendors close together where the Thieve’s Guild is. Dawnstar, Morthal, Winterhold and Falkreath all have low votes because they all only have 1-2 traders - and not great ones at that.
Personally, Markarth is one of the worst cities to me because several of the quests there are long and annoying, lots of running between the merchants, and the region outside it is dangerous.
12:40 Immediately thought of The Witcher 3, which gets almost zero attention in this video. Giant map to explore, and towns dot the map, but most of them only have a single trader and little to no other use.
I always appreciate your quality versus quantity this was a fantastic video and I'm going to be recommending it to my daughter for sure. I curate a whole pile of stuff for her, but I'm pretty specific.
Great video! And my first time seeing your channel, and i still subscribed! But you knew that would happen when you said i wouldnt ;) 😂
wow, just yesterday I was watching Mythic Bastionland and thats exactly how mr McDowall designed main quests there. They are not always related to a city from what I understand but by traveling around the region you slowly uncover each quest in 6 steps. At the end there is a big event that may change the map.
Pretty sure this is the 1st video of yours that I've ever seen. You've hooked me. I subscribed. LOL Seriously, you've packed some great information into this one. I appreciate the tips.
The starting town in my new campaign is being rebuilt from war damage. I plan to have the party be able to donate gold to the town and help them rebuild throughout the campaign. The party will be minor lords/ladies for the town, and will have a bit of control over what gets built.
Hi, first time in your channel, i love it i really want to see about the urban campains,new sub :) (btw im brazilian, the 1-7 still hurt, but you are forgiven)
I had this playing in the background while playing Hades and was very confused before I shot up from my chair.
Very interesting indeed, I might need to remake a fair bit of my town for my players seeing as I've realised they don't have any ties to it
Your videos are pure gold. Thanks for your amazing job!
Fighting dungeons and exploring dragons? 🤣
Nah the 2014 pic was foul 💀💀
First time viewer; Great video!
Never played Skyrim but you sold it to me well
I love dissecting Bethesda games - they try a LOT of things, so they do a LOT right, and they do a LOT wrong, and as a game designer that gives me a LOT of things to learn from.
I’m very picky with which DM advice content I subscribe to, and while I did not learn anything from this one video, you presented it in such a manner that I know I will in other videos. Look forward to seeing