Aikido Kotegaeshi Made Effective In BJJ • Martial Arts Journey
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- Опубліковано 8 лис 2018
- Aikido Kotegaeshi is one of the techniques which I personally see a potential of application against a resisting partner, yet the way it is applied in Aikido is still limited. In this Martial Arts Journey video I am joined by Cane Prevost, one of the top BJJ coaches in SBG Portland as he shares his opinion on how to make Aikido Kotegaeshi effective and functional in BJJ.
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While focusing on Aikido is far from my goal anymore, it is always interesting to come back to it and see how it can be applied. After all, I did spend 14 years practicing it. In this video together with one of the main coaches of SBG Portland Cane Prevost we take a look at Aikido Kotegaeshi, a wrist based take down often trained in Aikido.
Big thank you to coach Cane for the opportunity!
Nothing wrong with experimenting! I am sure you will find yourself doing aikido once again when your MA’s knowledge continues to grow. I mean, hell I took a knife from a guy with a kote gaeshi many yrs ago, it works.
Martial Arts Journey this is what i told you a few times.
Aikido works if you already know how to fight. I know people who have greatly improved their judo by adding aikido to it. And i know of MMA guys who have done the same.
Aikido doesn't work as a base art, but you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD NOT forget what you've learned because by the time you're a blue belt you will have already figured out how to effectively apply aikido techniques in live sparring.
You seem to see this very black and white: aikido either works or it doesn't.
And sonoriginaly you had a bias that aikido is the best, now you've gone half circle and now have that same bias and prejudice against aikido as being useless. You pressure tested it when you had no training and instantly decided it was bullshido and had no hope. If that were how martial arts were then no martial arts would exist. If a boxer gave up after he gets punched a few times there'd be no boxing. If kano gave up because he failed a few throws there'd be no judo. Now if you give up because you, as a beginner, cannot pull of techniques you've only pressured tested a few times then you'll waste your potential.
The reality is that it's a great supplementary art. Keep hold of it because it will give you an advantage later.
Remember judoka pressure test their throws endlessly, for hours, days at a time for years before they get good at one technique. And yet you've just tried them a few times, failed and given up on them completely. Don't throw aikido away yet. To put it bluntly, you're not qualified to say aikido doesn't work. You're a white belt trying black belt techniques, they won't work the first hundred times, but the second hundred they may work sometimes. If i went to judo, practiced 500 uchimata, did uchimata in rrandori, got countered, it is not me who gets to say uvhimata doesn't work because other people knownit does.
Sorry to ramble on i just really want to hammer this home becausenintruly want aikido to work (despite not practicing it personally) and i KNOW for a FACT that it can. But you've given up on it after only sparring a few times. If you gave up on the armbar after sparring twice and not getting it you'd realise that's absurd, well this is the same. It can really help you if you keep this in mind because once you get on equal grounds with an opponent, your knowledge of aikido could very well make all the difference. And if you continue to learn, then you can actually adapt aikido, which is how jujutsu masters used to do it. You think 'i need to apply this kotegaeshi like this as in the kata', no! In jujutsu (and judo, and BjJ since drilling is basically just kata) the practitioners got into lots of fights (or sparring sessions) and so they learned to adapt their kata for real fighting. You need to do the same. Treat aikido like BJj, and treat kata like drilling. You drill a technique 50 times, you pull it off nearly once, so you keep drilling and you keep trying it!
Again sorry for rambling and just repeating the same thing, i just really want my point to be clear. I'm not saying aikido's gonna end all dem BJj guys, what i'm saying is that you've learned a martial art which is a brilliant supplementary art (i've personally wtinessed its power in the hands of someone who already does live sparring) that can add to your skill set. But at this rate you're trying to forget it, which is not gonna help anyone.
Originally you wanted to improve aikido's efficiency. But you only had a few skype lessons in fighting. YOU CAN'T EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO USE AIKIDO THAT QUICKLY! Even if what you ddi was say judo, if you only did kata, then you only have some skype blxing lessons, you would not be able to use it that quickly. You are a novice in fighting, claiming certain styles don't work. When if you were an expert (which i give you my full support in becoming) you will know that the art is incredibly valuable.
One day you'll be a black belt in some martial art, and you'll think back and think 'yeah it made no sense to throw aikido in the trash when i had no qualification in determining that it belonged there'. Learning to fight doesn't take a couple of sparring sessions, it takes much longer. You, to be very frank, do not know hwo to fight and that is why your aikido doesn't work yet. But please, i beg, keep aikido in your memory and muscle memory, because one day you will know how to fight and then you will be able to adapt aikido the way the old masters used to.
jimmy alderson
The biggest flaw of poor kotegeashi-demonstration is the idea, that the wrist deflection sidewards outwards is the way to go. Yeah it can cause damage, but meanwhile the attackers second hand is able to give you good blow if he is not completely unbalanced beforehand or nage is in a safe position. So Rokas idea of kotegaeshi - as so often - violates the central budo principle of not opening yourself for counter-attack when applying a technique. He hasn’t learned this in 14 years and it looks like he won‘t get the idea in the next 14 years too.
Annesi Sensei shows a solution to the above mentioned flawed execution here: ua-cam.com/video/2d9GFj63eIE/v-deo.html and also here: ua-cam.com/video/fYvh92fAl7w/v-deo.html
@@amuthi1 dude, you are a tool. Nobody cares about your faulty techniques. Go train with real fighters for a while and you will see how wrong you are.
I’ve actually been using the wrist lock a lot for breaking someone’s grip while they are defending the armbar. It’s a very powerful technique especially when your training partner is very strong. Once you break that grip with the wrist lock the armbar is easy to finish.
I have used it to break grips too, most usefully to escape a guillotine choke.
I've used it to sweep from guard and from being full-mounted, to gain side control from standing, to go from standing to full mount... it's all in the practitioner's ability to not think rigidly.
A common variation to this in hapkido is making more contact (much like what is said in the video) by simultaneously putting a leg behind the oppontent to sweep once the pain puts them off balance.
Yeah, techniques like this are used in some schools of Japanese jujutsu too.
Thank you for those videos man they are so informative, even to someone who knows a lot about martial arts, there is a lit to learn from your videos, I think that's because you question everything and try to find out why it works and why other things don't work and try to find out what makes a technique good and how to fix problems and so we get a deeper understanding of martial arts and self defense
Nikyo with wrist control when your attacker has a grip on your gi in bjj. Works beautiful
Kote gaeshi exists in Japanese Jujitsu as well. However, we don't treat it as a throw but a pure wrist lock. The idea is to do the rotation to the ground only after the Uke is out of balance already. You can do that by pulling the hand joint towards you using your middle finger and thump while pushing the Uke's fingers away from you. This creates a lot of pain in the wrist, forcing the Uke to bend down, breaking the body structure.
That said, I had a teacher who likes to spend a whole hour during training on just this technique every now and then, and it takes years of practice to get it to work reliably even in a static situation. I spent that time, and even I don't think that I could apply it in a fully dynamic interaction, since you need a very precise grip on the hand (which tends to be the fastest moving part of the body).
The BJJ interpretation from Kotegaeshi... OMG! This is the coolest video I ever seen on your channel.
Changed AIKIDO techniques are always you try to do the things，I'm really admire you！
Kotegaeshi was always my favorite aikido throw
it always seemed to be one of the staples when i practiced aikido
Learned this throw threw aikido but found a very similar move in jjj (maybe even identical)
What are you talking about? You’re shaggy, you make triangle chokes by just looking at your opponents
I am so interested to see more of this!!!!! Please make more.
I love the conversation for finding the best ways to make Aikido more applicable...
Actually came over to your channel just now because I was wondering what you thought the most likely moves in Aikido were to be translated into mma or street fighting that you plan to keep as you go, because I'm honestly still hopeful to see you make Aikido more viable in martial arts, I honestly believe the best way to do that is working stamina like crazy and learning all of the techniques to survive until the point in the fight where your opponent slows below 75% practice speeds through sprawling, dodging, countering to waste their energy and save yours as well as fients and teaps to keep spacing and avoid tie ups... And you are going to still need to be around 100% or pop off an adrenal burst and induce some tachypsychia.
You will definitely need the bjj though because it's so common whenever someone can't take the punches needs a cuddle and it can really sap your wind and strength if you aren't comfortable with it or know how to avoid the ground or escape when needed and if you ever do pull off any Aikido in fights you will probably still have to use some bjj to "finish" your opponent anyway because shit always gets messy and can hardly ever go as perfectly as we plan.
Just watched a vid at MMA Shredded and Jeff Chan was letting people on the street swing at him with boxing gloves until they were winded and throwin in slomotion and he had all his juice still because of good head movement and proper defense and spacing, guys like Lerdsilla, Silva, or Lomenchenko use this as another trick up their sleeves to open the door for some straight up wizard lookin shit by gassing their opponents out.
I think Muay Thai Scholar is a great channel to check out towards this end too because the collection of sweeps and teaps are unmatched and those are excellent tools for muting attacks with minimal effort and keeping a safe range.
Have you ever heard of Willie Pep?
@@superawesomejeff nope, just checked him out though and the unorthodox in and out he's got is definitely worth looking into more, thanks man.
Dude I've watched your videos off and on for a few years now. I must say it takes a lot of guts to do what you have done. You are not ashamed of wearing that white belt on a video either good for you. Don't think of the time you may have wasted but the time you gained. I started bjj at the age of 39. I love it. Wish I had started when I was a kid but didn't. So I am happy I have the rest of my life with bjj. I also do some Japanese jujitsu (karate) training on the side so I am not a bjj snob either.
Thank you! Such great advice too!
Seen bunch of people who started as kids. Now they are burned out and have a ton of injuries. Not all of them. But it could of been you. Enjoy the journey
In Japan you wear a white belt until 1st Kyu!
First I think the way kotegaeshi done in training is already good enough for application but then I watch how bruce bookman apply kotegaeshi on jab. Then I think, 'oww the way in the dojo set the technique up is lacking'. Then I see this video, 'oww, even if ouw approach to apply the technique is good but the technique itself is not going to work smoothly'. Then I compiled my observation.
1. You can't apply your technique if you can't make them go to your game(setting up the technique by body positioning)
2. You can't apply any grappling technique if you afraid to hug your opponent. This is what I think is lacking on aikido, krav maga, or other standing-small joint manipulation martial art.
Thank to you. Keep train, be open minded, & search for universal truth
That was a very nice new kotegaeshi sweep very nice
the Kotegaeshi needs to be by the persons hip. You had it too far away from your body. The proper set up is to go really close, almost your right hip to his hip, go for the Kotegaeshi and keep it below his belt. When you push forward, go deep into his side and reap the leg.
I like that. Vee Arnis Jutsu has a concept called the "floating hand". Basically you have to start beating on your opponent and getting his to panic before you pull off a wrist takedown like that. Shock and stun them so they don’t know you’ve put the wrist lock on.
The thing is - kotegaeshi is taught in BJJ in traditional schools. The main differentiating characteristic between how it's taught in BJJ and how it's taught in Aikido is the grip: It's a double-handed thumbless grip where the uke's hand is GLUED to the nage's chest. The grip makes it a lot harder for the uke to rip his hand free, and also makes it easier for the nage to transmit power into the throw.
Studying more about kuzushi before trying to use aikido techniques. Sheesh.
The Aikido kotegashi IS effective if you can extend the arm - this is taught as the attacker extending his kI (energy).
A fighter would definitely not allow you to but I have extended people when we were standing and tussling, and I saw a way to extend his arm while moving my body in a good position to make it effective.
BJJ is great. Aikido is great. But they have different applications.
The Aikido kotegashi is VERY EFFECTIVE in disarming a person. It is common in hapkido Krav Maga and other hybrid styles. It is just the way the wrist and arm work and can be used to control or disarm - though not as smooth and beautiful as in an Aikido demonstration!
I can’t see a policeman, for example, getting himself tied up with a single person like BJJ does, except in particular situations. . They have to remain standing while they deal with people and cops do use Aikido techniques to handle out of control perps and combatants.
But a fight with a prepared and trained opponent, on a mat with nothing and no one else to consider, is an entirely different situation! .
I understand that he wants to improve his fighting skills, but that’s not the sole purpose of physical control in martial arts...
He has said as much, but I think he judges Aikido a bit too much on what it’s not designed to do.
He has mentioned that as well, but I just think he is just focusing on fighting at the moment, in his “Martial Arts Journey”. And after all, there is almost ALWAYS a fight winner and loser!
Well, police officers usually suck at fighting.
In reality, multiple police officers get themselves tied up with a single person like that.
Connor Wiebe I don’t know what pussy ass cops you are talking about, but I have seen cops at work in NYC, Honolulu, Tokyo and now Philadelphia PA...
They WILL hand you an ass whipping using MANY styles!
Have you ever heard of George Floyd?!🙄
Aikido doesnt design to be connected long enough with the opponent sir. Kotegaeshi used to throw opponent while still be aware for another attack to come. Aikido originally comes from aiki jujitsu, so they do have similar movement. Japanese jujitsu almost have all basic brazilian jujitsu moves, called ne waza
I teach that kote gaeshi is in the same "chain" as ude gaeshi, also called: ude garame, Americano, key lock or versions of shiho nage. In competition it is very hard to get, since you should be concerned about safety. I've gotten kote gaeshi, in playing ( randori or rolling), when they great around the waist from behind. Connection and isolation of the joint. Brother, find answers.
on rare occasion I will use kote gaeshi as a setup for o soto gari in BJJ. I can't drop them with the kote gaeshi, but they lean over enough to plant their weight on the same-side foot (same side as the attacked wrist). I'm not sure this is realistically practical though because in an MMA setting I'd be being punched by the other hand.
More often than not I use ude garami, you can drop someone with that, but you have to bring their arm all the way parallel to the ground. You really have to commit to it. I get that from the knees sometimes and it works pretty well. It's one of those techniques that I wouldn't go for unless it just presented itself to me by chance. On the plus side, it's extremely easy to tap people just by keeping the grip once they're on the ground.
Now I actually have got a few guys with nikkyo/kote kudaki from the knees. I think there may be real potential for that in sport BJJ because of the constant desire for people to grab your lapel. It's easy to get out of, but I guess it's obscure enough that most BJJers just don't see it. It's kind of ironic, because I always thought nikkyo would be one of the least useful techniques in basic aikido.
very interesting !
Uke=receives technique; Nage=performs technique
Aikido being re-engineered by people who don't actually practice it... Ok. Fair enough. Certainly the aspects of Aikido that O-Sensei took from Jujitsu may be understood from a Jujitsu perspective. I think I saw a video in which these guys watched a couple of clips of one style of Aikido, a more open and flowing style. I wonder how much they have researched or practiced Aikido.
To be fair I get where they are coming from and I appreciate their perspective. BJJ is a formidable martial art. However, in learning Aikido, two facets of training are usually stressed. The first is that we try to place ourselves in the centre of movement blending with our opponents momentum so as to create opportunities to speedily end the confrontation: peacefully; or lethally. And lethality is in fact taught.
Lethality cannot be practiced. In training a degree of co-operation is required so as not to damage the uke. Having said that, it is often difficult to get a committed attack from the uke - this takes a long time to learn. Years of being slammed into the mat in fact. And accidents happen. I have had both shoulders dislocated - one stayed out for 5 days. That happens when, both uke and nage are not in co-ordination, co-operating as it is sometimes perceived. However, during training I was always shown how to kill, while also being shown a non-lethal conclusion. Killing movements, at the level I was able to achieve, where controlling movements of the uke's head/neck and some strikes (fist, elbow, knee, feet).
To further explain peaceful conclusion. These were mainly joint locks. Many of these were taken and adapted from Judo and Jujitsu. I can vouch for the authenticity of their practice, when done well and their lack of effectiveness when done incorrectly. Training is required.
Aikido take-downs were taken and adapted from both Judo and Aikido. Aikido weapons training was also comprehensive, borrowing from Kendo.
Why does Aikido not go the ground completely? It usually does not, with an expectation of multiple attackers, but it can do. Shiko is the practice of moving effectively between attackers, while on your knees. Technique may be performed from Shiko almost as effectively as from the standing position. Most pins are performed from the knees allowing a fluid movement to a central position between multiple attackers, using Shiko.
Seriously people. There are differing styles of Aikido. Some are more fluid than others. Some exert more complete joint control. All are capable of lethality. Unless you have trained in Aikido and experienced the differences in techniques that come from training in different styles (nothing official though there is division in this martial art, but they are reality), you cannot understand Aikido.
You are doing yourself a disservice in dismissing Aikido , with no first hand knowledge of it. You are putting rocks in your head, and it's hard to come back from that. Aikido is a very recent traditional Japanese martial art that is extremely rounded and effective. It is a practice seldom completely mastered. And it is still evolving.
Take a breath. Go to your dojo and train in whatever martial art you do. Try to perfect it. Try to learn from everything you see without having to judge. Be open.
Hi, Rokas, what's up? Based by the way I learned the kotegaeshi, You can try to aplly this technique going down towards your knees and doing a tenkam. I think is effective this way.
I like your videos!
In catch as catch can wrestling there is the same/similar holds but applied in a different way. Personally I think the hold here can’t be done right without the opponents elbow far enough away from the body for you to be able to lower the opponent into leaning forward with the wrist lock pressuring them down. That means this won’t work against anyone who has tight elbows. I like to get the grip, push and then pull their arm out of position and down, then apply pressure downward on the wrist lock and hold it to my body to avoid them extending their arm straight. When someone is leaning they can’t move forward, or block being turned by the lock & they are easy to turn over, which is a takedown. The Americana ( or top wrist lock in CACC) is the same thing. If you just twist the wrist you may just break the arm at the elbow or forearm without a takedown that’s why I do it differently so I can use it. I chain this with the armpit armbar.
By moving forward I mean you can’t step or use your legs and are basically tripped already. I use this everyday in sparring along with leg,body, head etc. Takedowns. It all works.
The point that is being missed here, and is missed in most discussions of techniques in all of these martial arts that stemmed from daitoryu aiki-jujutsu (which includes judo, aikido, BJJ, and others) such as kotegaeshi is that in practical application, this technique is not intended as a throw. It is intended to be applied quickly, without the hesitation to allow your uke to follow, and results not in them being thrown, but having their wrist broken. It is taught that way (as a throw) in aikido to match Ueshiba's philosophy, and in other styles because it allows the training of the body mechanics without maiming or injuring a succession of practice partners!
But just like in many Asian martial arts, things that were taught a certain way for pedagogical reasons (like starting punches with hands on hips) then must give way once the mechanics are learned to more advanced, realistic movements. But they don't, instead becoming locked into this beginner's methodology. So now karate black belts are still practicing basic punches with their hands starting on their hips, and aikido people are still going slowly enough and pausing long enough to allow uke to keep up.
And as long as a martial art is taught this way, it has no practical application.
I have hit Kote Gaeshi but it was because it was a quick grab as they reached for a collar. It will never be a reliable go to technique but in certain instances it can work. If I miss it I have at least stopped them from a collar grip and made them have to rethink their approach to getting that grip.
The key to any of these locks is to apply then dynamically (amongst a series of atemi and positioning/balance taking techniques) and to apply them balistically - to break rather than to throw or control.
The locks exist in systems from almost every culture because they work but Aikido (and I'm speaking as a very experienced Aikido black belt) turns a silk purse into a pig's ear.
Dude this is interesting. I hope you can practice it and implement in in a spar
I agree that kotegaeshi is pretty difficult to apply in BJJ context, I think I did the traditional throw one time during stand up while "rolling". If the person is in your guard you might be able to apply the move as part of a throw to unbalance the person and end up on top. One aikido move which I have found you can adapt and apply effectively in BJJ is sankyo. It can be sneaky because most BJJ people aren't used to it.
Particularly i like that two on one position for setup , keep control of the wrist ( like aikido) and use 2 on 1 (like wrestling ), make the opponent turn(fake to setup) wait the momentum and kote gaeshi, but its a question of timing and precision, the beautiful science of martial arts.
A lot of the techniques from aikido would be functional if trained realistically. Some throws have some crossover with judo and I also have used shiho nage in sparring before.
Can you send us a video of you doing it with restiance
There is plenty of evidence for it if you watch shodokan aikido highlights.
@@chaos_omega ok
Chaos Omega shodokan kind of proved that aikido is bullshit though doesn’t it? It just looks like two spastics doing really shit judo. Against resisting opponents aikido is an ugly, weak martial art. Learn judo.
@@chaos_omega ok thank you. Also could you show us something you did using Akido sparring with a greco roman wrestler or a folk style wrestler so I can learn from you???
I can land kotegaeshi alot, you dont always get the throw, however works well to bait or distract, can also work wrist manipulations from different positions like in my guard and whatnot, like everything it has its place
Look up Fredson Paixao. He’s a bjj guy who was known for devastating wristlocks in competition. A lot of the wristlocks used what looks like aikido concepts to me though he was just a bjj guy who knew how to attack the wrist really well
Makes sense!
I've begun completely converting all of my studies over to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I've pretty much found that Ikebana is useless for self defense on the street. However, I'm currently looking into salvaging a few techniques from my studies in Chado and Kodo. I bet BJJ could turn even these impractical martial arts into something of value.
@Sean Francis Waters Lancaster I'm being sarcastic regarding folks who only find value in "street effectiveness". Ikebana (flower arranging), chado (tea ceremony), and kodo (incense appreciation) are often classed as Japanese martial arts since they were associated with the Samurai class. Even though they are not necessarily street effective, they are still worth studying for their mindfulness aspect.
There's a sneaky wristlock that I found you can do on the ground from a top position. I don't know if it has a name or anything but if you sense your partner's wrist is bent you can trap their elbow and apply the lock with body weight. More experienced people probably won't allow their wrists to be in such awkward positions to begin with but I have got more than a couple of taps with it.
take ori
Some people are making complaints about this demonstration without taking into consideration that the demonstration is not supposed to include any setup or be integrated into a flow of 2 or 3 different techniques. It's divorced from reality of course because it's just a demonstration.
Kote gaesh isn't a pain compliance technique unless you're going to bash the wrist with a strike, it's a body control technique and it's circular and not linear which cancels out the guys ability to step around it. You do a figure 8 and switch from kote gaeshi to kote heneri or maybe tenkai kote gaeshi. The better you are at it and the more energy the attacker puts into it determines how small your circles are. The guy actually contradicts himself later in the video and doesn't realize it.
How can you NOT spin out of the foot grab just because the grip was farther out? Doesn't seem like it would matter.
Interesting, personally when I have tried this one standing on a resisting opponent, the problem is my face is open to attack. And if I break off to deflect the punch I lose the lock
agree. usually opponents have a second arm and two legs to attack...
I wonder about that too. Like when the BJJ guy is showing a move at 3:30, what if at that second, the Aikido guy decides to punch him in the face with his right fist?
Already is functional. Like everything, it’s about timing and opportunity. Also very good when already on the ground.
What about sankyo? Of all the aikido moves I found that the most promising interns of actual application.
Use it as a setup and play with the forced reaction. Opens up a wrestling leg attack. Usually we get it off of an opponent’s grip.
Koteroshi is great for when you caught people off guard. It's not like every single attacker is always thinking of that particular move. It has worked for me with resisting opponents before. I preffer sankyo though
kote geashi can be done from a arm lock by doing a arm drag. it does not always have to be done from the wrist.
I am you are trying things out. Try pull their hand in close as possible your center first then rotate. That will work
Rockas ...why dont you hop to a karate dojo & make a video break down, on how ineffective BJJ was in the Brian ortega vs Holloway fight?...
I think you can do better yourself just from clinch wrestling setups Rokas! Try it without any striking first
Again who was teaching you Aikido? Everything your BJJ teacher showed you I learned from my Aikido teacher. Kotegashi is not about the wrist by itself. You have to take the center exactly how your BJJ teacher showed he dropped his weight and used his hips to get you in a position where he could then exploit your wrist. Also when he explained moving the lever point and grabbing the hand or foot that’s Sankyo. You never trained Aikido with a teacher who allowed Uke to reverse a technique if Nage left an opening for it? Proper Kotegashi always only happen after you drop your center to off balance Uke first. If you don’t do that then you can’t complete the wrist throw.
I agree with the joint lock needing to engage the opponents core.. Good kotegashi doesn’t start with a wrist twist. It starts with compressing into the wrist enough that the arm locks into the core. Only when the opponents core is affected (or displaced), then you can start the twist. Otherwise twisting too soon means too much slack to take up, and that’s what opponent will use to move to a better position.
Never the less I like the modified version shown here, which isn’t fail proof either. Some prerequisites gotta be prepped before I invest 2 hands on one arm while opponent is standing.
BINGO
So instead of kind of bashing aikido (which is kind of what happens a lot here even if it’s not intended) I think it would be a lot cooler if you did a video series where you try to improve aikido by mixing it with concepts from other grappling arts.
Kickboxing/muaybthai/boxing plus bjj with joint manipulation and wrestling illegal hooking you got a dangerous arsenal
This technique originates from japanese/samuraj jiu jitsu and it just amazes me that both of you seem so unfamiliar with it and how to execute it. There is both a setup and footwork that accompanies it.
soooooo good. Awesome!
Rokkas, bro , I’m known in BJJ for my wristlocks and Judo for my standing armbars . I won a World Masters Judo Bronze Medal match with a standing pressing armbar . ( Ude Hishigi Ude gatami ) . Hit me up and I will send you a video on effective wristlocks .
Not defending Aikido as a complete martial art, but.. Aikido is often misrepresented by trying to demonstrate the techniques in situations that just are not appropriate. In general, outside of some static grabs and hugs, Aikido is best suited for an opponent who is attacking with a lot of momentum and force. This is where it shines and often comes across as sleight of hand/body with good results. Body positioning and timing are priorities for this art to be effective. And if techniques are countered, a decent practitioner should be able to flow/adjust into a different technique.
Its right，time for you to figure out how to connect his whole body with the small movement like 小手返し，its hard，i hope you can go to meet 木下良一 sensei，and then see if its possible to grab the whole body without irimi
The goal of kote gaeshi is not to throw or tap anybody out. It was meant to break a person's wrist. So obviously you would set it up with an atemi. The only reason the person is thrown is for safety. In real life you just break it. Them falling is only a by product of the move
Actually, he is using sankyo hand lock at first, not kotegaeshi
U cant just do kotogaiji laike thst u have to either be fast or know the movment better u either have to do the 2 tisabaki or u can do it aofonsei wich is even better and much faster style or variation in the setup before doing kotogaiji
No connection with uke? Not how I'm taught and shown and practice, you can control and break structure really nicely from kote geishi and kote ori, and remove grabs/grips...I keep saying but if you're in the UK, please come visit my instructor, if you ask about wrist locks he'll show you instead of utterly changing the subject like this guy 😎 Pain compliance must be secondary in locks, if you haven't broken the attackers structure they're not anywhere near as effective.
They aren't very effective against someone with good balance, a strong core, and a background in competitive grappling either. The battle for structure is not easy to win against someone skilled. Why dovso many Aikidoka insist that these techniques work at a high level? Even O sensei sparred and competed in Sumo and Judo when he was younger. Why do people forget that?
Pain compliance is a training tool that works for learning and which should then be set aside. For fighting, just break bones.
1. уметь надо делать котэ-гаэси, как и всё остальное. Как тут уже сказали, техника котэ-гаэси в айкидо - это не только поворот запястья. Поворот запястья -это, по сути, конечная фаза броска, которому должен предшествовать вывод из равновесия. 2. приём должен быть неожиданным для оппонента, как и другие приёмы айкидо. 3. существуют и другие траектории проведения этого приёма, которые не дадут возможности уйти оппоненту так, как было продемонстрировано на видео. уж за 14-то лет нельзя этого не знать, правда?
The kotegaeshi does not have connection because the BJJ instructor does not know how to connect it. When he did his version of full body connection to make the wrist thing work, an MMA instructor would point out the Rokas's right fist would have a field day with the BJJ instructoe's face. So that solution don't work.
I think everyone on here would respect Rockas if he was just man enough to accept that he was not a good practicioner of Aikido & is not worthy of representing it.
Just admit it...& say you like BJJ Better & thats ok. Bjj is awesome...
But to sit here like you mastered aikido & make these Mickey mouse videos & question everything, discredits your 14 yr training & credibility overall.
Totally agree I questions this guy. To me it seem he learn a few moves and suck at it get a master or experience person
It also comes down to the BJJ guy not having a good enough knowledge of small joint manipulation to see more and better possibilities for its application in BJJ. I've used kotegaeshi in grappling plenty, with adequate to good results, both standing and on the ground. I'm no master of grappling, either, but I've had enough practice in both disciplines to not be so rigidly close-minded about it.
Good connection and adding weight....everything I learned and teach about properly applying kotegaeshi. You did not have to fly across the world to have such a revelation. Regardless, thanks for bringing it up and sharing the video.
actually, he did. because nobody teaches it this way other than you, and apparently this guy
@@stefan-t-- What data are you using to support the claim that nobody teaches kotegaeshi using good connection and adding weight other than 2 people on the planet?
@@jamesowens9710 he's calling you arrogant. How were based on your lack of comprehension I would add a couple adjectives
@@danieldunlap4077 Somehow you missed the sarcasm. Personally, I think it arrogant to make claims about everybody on the planet based on a 4 minute UA-cam video. I'm crazy like that.
James Owens yes, I’m sure every aikido school has people practicing this move from closed guard, right? Bullshitter.
So why not use that wristlock as a joint break technique instead of a takedown? Even if your opponent can fully move, you only need a second to break his wrist if you grab his wrist and jank it forcefully while stepping back. It can be quick enough to break his wrist with time to react to his counterattack. Worce case scenario you take a hit you can recover from while your opponent cant use one of his limbs against you. Who cares if he doesnt move along with the wristlock and doesnt cooperate? Youre aiming to break his wrist
You know kotegaeshi isn't just turning the wrist right?
wait WHAT?!??!
I was shown to pass hips with the opponent and close the distance with my body and at that range they rotate over your hip.
@@elenchus If you understood the technique, it has little to do with turning the wrist.
@@deadmanmouse2463 using kote gaeshi to do something like an o goshi? it's an interesting idea. When I've tried using it in full resistance I found that even when I did get it, it just made them bend over--the range of motion of my own hands was limiting me. So I tried a few things, one was kneeling and bringing their hand to the ground, one was using that as a setup for o soto gari, and finally, just switching to ue ude garami.
@@elenchus your exactly correct boss. I have had more success this way but it still only binds strong people and fails to throw them.
First to see this yayya
Congrats :)
Why not just do judp?
This is my teacher. He shows here pretty much what your BJJ teacher did. He explains the danger of being up too high and trying to do the wrist throw too early. Way too easy for Uke to resist or reverse. Also leaves you wide open. First get behind a lower than Uke. Then you’ll hear him say that his goal is taking the elbow not the wrist. Then the lever is long enough. I understand your dilemma with the effectiveness of the Aikido you learned but obviously from this video there are different more martial and effective versions that can be learned. ua-cam.com/video/Orwvq1JeA9A/v-deo.html
Here's a better example of how to apply kote gaeshi against a resistant opponent, from Dan the Wolfman in an actual MMA fight: ua-cam.com/video/7Oo2Sa8BHzs/v-deo.html at the 1:45 time mark.
I respect BJJ when it comes to large joint locks from the ground. They're very creative there. When it comes to small joint locks, it's just not their area of expertise. They're right that small joint techs usually don't seem practical. But that's because it takes a different mindset to pull them off.
Now, even if you're good at small joint manipulations, in practice to make them work against resistance means you have to also use some kind of strike (percussive or pushing force) to destabilize the uke and take their attention away from the immediate lock, just like in wrestling with most throws you to set them up with some of push-pull action. Ueshiba Sensei said that aikido is 90% atemi.
There's a good DVD by Rory Miller that would help you learn how to implement the locks faster. ua-cam.com/video/Fn61ilzrN8Y/v-deo.html
Try koichi tohei kotegaeshi
i dont do kotegaeshi in this direction (not side direction, but in direction of the ground in the back of Uke). Kotegaeshi is use when Uke go back is arm (or his punch) (after a hit for example), you should use the mouvement (uke back is own arm), to pull his arm back in the same way and do kotegaeshi. the mouvement is in "harmony", not contrain Uke to go side, if you do this Uke will react and go in the opposite direction.
Or kotegaeshi are use to open a way to do an atemi
ua-cam.com/video/KoH4qjWKTfM/v-deo.html%3D175
All control with pain are useless, in fight when your life (or life of your wife, your children or whatever) is in danger. Against a fighter with "anger", with goal to win. Pain is useless, so kotegaeshi with pain, is useless.
3:27, guy has a free right hand, it's not like he can go for his eyes or anything...
Rokas, that was not kotegaeshi. You should know it's much more than just twisting the wrist.
Theres no need for that you cant turn around when someone is doing kotegaishi on you (and he know what he is doing) If you turn youll break you arm.
This video and what is shown is great, but it's just not about that. The way the parallel is drawn between the two circumstances is totally wrong. These things are just gonna be used in totally different situations. Regardless its nice to see peope testing stuff and trying new or "new" things
Sorry the paralel is not wrong, i just think it cannot connect the two
I'm sure there is rules and all but his modification, Opens his face up to attack.
Almost everything leaves you open to something.
Dan Kelly yep that is very true.
There are a lot of counters in the comments, however:
More leverage, more connection is going to better, becuase it is about having some control. Why use something less likely to work? If you can't get there the other person is not going to play ball. That is why striking exists.
If you have to preface it with "he hasn't set up it correctly", but he was asked to see the context within his knowledge and he was unable to find a realistic set up.
The idea that the person just comes in like that and with two hand one would have enough control is delusional. The reality is you would struggle to get the grip, and if you did by that point they have more option than you, becuase you are using two on one with no real control of their body.
Yes I get that it is supposed to work with he footwork and the movement of the other person, *but that whole sneario is artificial*. People do no move like that and they don't react in that way when someone would attempt it.
Doing "hard" Aikido in jeans and t-shirt doen't make the set-up any more realistic. The delusion is in obsessing over infective principles let alone techniques.
Let me just say to everyone because this is a common debate . Akido can work buttt the problem is a lot of martial artist need to have functional skills in the clinch. Because that guy trains with a uncooperative opponet in bjj he has the functional skills to make it work. When you don't have the mma and bjj for a solid foundation and you are doing Akido with no foundation its difficult to make close range styles such as Siliat and Akido work all by itself. Like he said the connection is missing. Just like Silat it can work but you need functional clich skills in Greco Roman Wrestling to make it work because Greco helps you develop connection with over hooks and under hooks then you can use the sweeps in Silat because you will have them connected and demoblelized so then you off balance them for a sweep.Become functional with progressive restiance then you will have the skills to make non functional arts work. How did he just show that with out being taught by some grandmaster reason being bjj does hand fighting and controlling the risk and posture thats why he can show him a functional modified version of Ruckus Akido technique.
Anthony Allen so aikido can’t work, because no aikido schools train any of that shit.
Nobody said “boxing could work, if you do X Y Z.” Because boxing does work.
If you’re saying aikido could work, you’re already saying it doesn’t.
@@jaymiddleton1782 wow you're missing the whole point. The question is how functional is Akido? Regularly it isnt only if tou have a foundation in a range such as bjj because it offers connection. If a person do not have skill in that delivery system they will have a hard time making it work against a skilled practioneer whom train in MMA and BJJ thats all im saying
@@anthonyallen3328 I am saying I don't think what he's doing here is "making aikido functional."
Aikido is a concepts based martial art. What's going on here is, he is performing an aikido technique in isolation from the concepts of aikido. If I can do an aikido technique from closed guard it's not because I'm making aikido functional it's because Im doing jits.
So what he's doing here isn't making aikido functional, he's just doing MMA. Otherwise we might as well just call it all Kung Fu (which I would prefer anyway). And if you say "making it functional" then there's the implication that currently, it is not functional.
@@jaymiddleton1782 You are correct its not functional BY ITSELF. It has to have a foundation of well rounded clinch and some ground skills to give it connection so it can be used in some situations. That was my point. A lot of these traditional styles do not have the strong mma foundation to be able to keep a fully resisting combat athlete off of them . When you ask a traditional artist does this defend against an mma practioneer they answer how often will you incounter an mma fighter. So there answer is nooooo. Its just for a common attack . Any style of combat you train should defend against unskilled and skilled no excuses. That's my point its not the technique that is the problem its the lack of a functional training method that makes Akido difficult to use all by itself with no other functional skills to go along with it.
He asked a bjj wrestler to do a jjj lock. Like come on now
I think maybe part of your problem is you dont train real if you would have applied the technique correctly and with some force the jujitsu guy maybe would have gave you some props i have watched some of your videos and i just really think you need to train real and you will be able to use akido in real life situations.
Nice. First flew on my guard and do not hit my balls with your knee :-D and then, kotegaeshi needs more body connection, but do not use your right hand to support left left hand or to choke me to eyes or punch ... :-D
Yea like like that.
Kotegaeshi will work. After breaking the nose with a punch or stomping the knee. Aikido lost track when it lost real Atemiwaza.
So now, it is Japanese Jiujitsu?
Why do i hear Joe Rogan at 3:01
OMG, is this really him? If so how is there not a video with him??
You are learning Grasshopper : )
BJJ comes from Japanese Jujutsu. Japanese Jujutsu has been around way longer than Aikido. Japanese Jujutsu has "Kotegaeshi"(outward wrist lock) and it has worked forever. I train BJJ & JJJ. It has always worked for me. Respectfully, it is the way most Aikido practitioners perform it. No real overbalancing or striking to make it work. No real discovery here. Sorry...
So YOU tried kotegaeshi ONCE in a COMPETITION and it wasn't working for you, so you decided it's ineffective and needs a BJJ player to fix. What he said about connecting the technique to the centre/rest of the body makes sense... What is sad is that YOU didn't understand that, nor did you know how to make that connection through kotegaeshi happen. Please, just stop telling the world you had anything to do with aikido. Stop trying to "fix" it. The principles of aikido aren't broken or ineffective just because you don't understand them.
Kotegaeshi for Bjj is Hand cow
m.ua-cam.com/video/j_s2rZR7IkQ/v-deo.html
I don't think the problem lies in the technique itself.
I think it depends on the context.
That was bullshit. Problem with how Kotegaeshi is taught in many Aikijo is lack of atemi, lack of second stage set up. Frankly Aikido is often taught by people with lack of exoerienced credentials in what they are doing. Kids wuth less than 15 or 20 years experience in what they are doing and dint know enough answers
Jizoan Zendo 10,000 hours to master a skill, or sincere training for 10 years.
You saw Rokas had trained for 14 years, then decided 15 years is the minimum.
Rokas wasn’t shit at aikido - aikido is just shit. Show me the videos of you using it on a resisting opponent.
@@jaymiddleton1782 ua-cam.com/video/4f2vjSNa22k/v-deo.html
The biggest flaw of poor kotegeashi-demonstration is the idea, that the wrist deflection sidewards outwards is the way to go. Yeah it can cause damage, but meanwhile the attackers second hand is able to give you good blow if he is not completely unbalanced beforehand or nage is in a safe position. So Rokas idea of kotegaeshi - as so often - violates the central budo principle of not opening yourself for counter-attack when applying a technique. He hasn’t learned this in 14 years and it looks like he won‘t get the idea in the next 14 years too.
@@infozencentre there are no resisting opponents in that video. The distasteful truth is that most aikido practitioners couldn't take out a two-year white belt in BJJ in a grappling match.
@@hopked it completely depends on who you are taught by, and how you learn and apply. BJJ is only as good as the person doing it too, so's a handgun
See proper kotegaeshi and beautiful dysbalancing at: ua-cam.com/video/7KhjBXFvp5c/v-deo.html watch untill 2:19 min. This guy seems to know so much more what he is doing.
Bjj judo aikido hapkido is all jujitsu bottom line jujitsu is just super big art just like Kung Fu people took and revised the art and stamped it with a new name
Your kogegaeshi entrance into the technique was horrible.
WTF is happening here?
In order to make an Aikido technique “functional”, you have to turn it into a BJJ technique. 😆