After doing some research I realized that a more official term for "clone character" would be "foil". Because apparently it needs to be said (again)... this video contains spoilers for Succession and Red Dead Redemption 2. There is a written 6-second spoiler warning at the beginning of the video. Ho boy can't wait for everyone to react very normally to this one...
Imagine creating and putting all your effort and time into a piece of art, and then when you finally upload it for the world to see, you start to see all the little mistakes you did. From one artist to another, I get you brother 😔
Well I apologize given it was written before. I had it playing in the background while I was cleaning, and wish it had been stated instead of just written. But I get you did your part by writing it. So I apologize I know it’s not on you, if you write it and do your part. But a lot of people just leave videos playing in the background to listen to, while doing other things. So maybe stating it as well, would help in the future. Just a thought
Don't worry, sorry for spoiling it for you. In the future, know that some video essayists do put spoiler/content warnings in writing rather than verbally. Also, RDR2 is absolutely still worth playing, even if you know one aspect of its ending. The story is insane and there's way more that I didn't spoil; definitely still worth playing. For comparison, I've just started watching Game of Thrones for the first time, and despite knowing how it ends I'm still enjoying it simply because it's a great show (well, at the beginning. Supposedly goes downhill later on but I'm prepared for that lol).
You do learn about Lev's mom, all the way back during the building descent before the hospital They get out of the building, take off their masks, and Lev tells Abby about his family and how he and his sister take care of their mom and how it's their duty
Sure but it's still just one very short conversation. I'm hoping in the show we actually get to see her to make that scene of Lev going to back to the island hit harder
Marlene's thought process was explained in the voice logs in TLOU 1. I don't understand what doesn't make sense there. It even comes up in the DLC. She had to be tough as the leader.
Yeah I think he got that wrong in the video , Marlene dosent suddenly have a character ark walking down the hallway , she believes making the vaccine is the right thing to do , her being forceful with joel is also trying to convince herself of her own words and actions , that scene in part 2 never struck me as odd at all .
Jesse is just a ride or die, it’s not about him being Dina’s ex, even he explains that he doesn’t care if Ellie kissed Dina or if they’re together. Idk saying that his whole character is “Patrols and Dina’s ex” feels kinda lazy? If you can’t connect with a character that’s okay but it just feels like that disconnect just prevents you from even looking deeper into him. Like why does Jesse show up? Because he’s been friends with Ellie with years, he went on patrols with Joel and Ellie numerous times over these years so obviously he cares about both of them. But Jesse being there shows how far Ellie is going, he’s someone who’s there and can see that she’s going too far. He’s trying to tell her that their priority should be getting everyone home safe and that they bit off way more than they can chew by being caught in a war between two factions that have been killing each other for years, to the point that neither of them care if who they’re shooting at is even the enemy. Jesse traveled all that way to help, but he’s a leader, and he’s been doing that stuff for long enough to know when to push and when to back off. And no matter what the mission is not more important than his friends that he’s trying to protect. It also added tension for Ellie to see how she feels more with Dina being pregnant and the father of that baby showing up. Also about the Seattle day 1 map section, it’s more of a tutorial and a way to ease in new players. That’s why it’s not that fun on repeat playthroughs. Even that town section in the first game for repeat playthroughs turns into speedrunning into every place and grabbing what you can then leaving. And it’s the same way for the Seattle section, if you know what you’re doing it’s really easy to stock up on materials and take out the limited amount of infected without using much of the materials. I think as an opening segment it’s amazing for new players, it’s an hour of character and relationship building for Dina and Ellie. But on repeat playthroughs you already know the dialogue and cutscenes that it doesn’t matter so it just feels slow and pointless. I think it’s important to step back and look at some of these things from outside the pov of you as someone who’s played the game already and probably more than a couple times, but instead look at it through a first playthrough pov and a new player.
I feel the semi open seattle section in day 1 also serves as a break after how intense and emotional Joel’s death was so you can get about an hour and a half to rest until you get back into the action.
always funny when people draw the “arthur morgan death” comparison when complaining about joel’s death. like, play read dead one, my friend. johnny marathon does NOT get that picture perfect, gentle death either lmao
John’s death was pretty badass on the surface level. Him and Arthur go down swinging - that’s why nobody complained. Realistically though, the whole point of those games was that John and Arthur died in vain, as Abigail still dies out of grief and the son Jack still becomes an outlaw. It’s way more nuanced than “strong man die strongly” lol
Everything in this story is forced, from motivations and story events, to attempts to make you like characters that with a sober mind and taste you wouldn't give a damn about usually.
Lost me at "don't like jesse" 😒 Dude he's the sweetest. Trying to respect Dina while she's being reckless with his child in her belly. While still being a ride or die for ellie up until he finds out there's a baby on the line. Then he pushes back against ellie, prioritizing revenge over the well-being/health of Dina(tommy too kinda). When abby shot him, I was done. She can't be forgiven.
I feel like I was the only person that enjoyed playing as abby more than Ellie. She had greater set pieces throughout the story, and it was interesting to learn her background. People wanted another daddy daughter road trip game with joel and ellie but what wouldve been the point? Naughty dog wanted to tell a totally different story and I loved that.
I dont get you....I mean yeah Ellie was an asshole but with her we at least saw guilt she is going trough....for gods sake she almost threw up when she found out Mel was pregnant...with Abby we NEVER saw that.... she said "good" when Ellie told her Dina is pregnant... my boyfriend called Abby "this big pig" :D and it doesnt make sense that she is soo muscular....seriously how if food is very limited in this world...or did she took steroids? well where did she get those? My boyfriend practices jiu jitsu and he had very hard time believing that Abby could get soo puffed without proper food , training alone isnt enough
Took me three playthroughs to come to the same conclusion. @berleezy clicks on to it quick in his first or second video playing Abby when he exclaims with absolute surprise and shock.. "Abby, kinda coooool, though!!?"
I’m playing through for the first time. Saw all the hate when it started. Yes the story is flawed. No Abby is not a badly written character. And yeah I enjoy hey sections a lot too.
@@HK-gm8pethat’s the thing, Abby may not FEEL guilty, but she sure as hell has consequences for her actions (losing everyone except Lev) then, the Dina point, first of all, she was avenging Mel, and if you don’t agree with her doing that, then you shouldn’t be ok with Ellie killing all of those WLF soldiers (sure they attacked her first but she could’ve easily turned away as soon as she found out Dina was pregnant)
The dissonance in the Abby/Ellie fight was intentional. You're supposed to not want to kill Ellie then you're supposed to realize you have to seeing as she's the boss in the videogame. It's supposed to conflict the player imo.
No shit it’s intentional. Who knew people wouldn’t like being forced to hurt/kill your favorite characters? Just because it’s intentional doesn’t mean it’s good. Look at how many players purposefully let Ellie kill Abby when they start the fight for the first time. It’s an extremely frustrating position to put your fanbase in
@ArgentPendragon tough luck. That's how art works. You aren't guaranteed to like it. Honestly if you were still on the same page as Ellie at that point you were trying not to understand the story. She obviously loses herself as Abby almost loses herself before lev talks her down after that fight.
@@ArgentPendragon Ellie and Joel are prob tied for being my favourite characters of all time. Have been for a decade, now. I've dedicated HUNDREDS OF HOURS of my life to drawing fanart featuring them lol. Even with all this... When I was in that theatre, as much as I didn't want to hurt Ellie, I did what the game asked of me. I felt that INTENSE cocktail of feelings that moment wants to evoke in the player, and I went ahead and did as expected. When I thought that Abby had strangled Ellie, that I might've strangled Ellie to death, my heart actually skipped a beat or two. I still did exactly what the game wanted. Because that's what the game is. It is a linear story that I am supposed to go through and experience. At the end, I didn't want to kill Abby. I've heard of many people letting Ellie die in the hopes that there's a secret ending or not doing the fight cuz they didn't want Ellie to do that. I didn't do any of that. I beat Abby up without a second thought, despite all of my complex feelings (not wanting her to die, wanting Lev to have someone, wanting Ellie to return to her home and abandon this suicidal revenge mission etc)... I beat the snot out of Abby lol. Cuz THAT is what the game is. And me resisting against that (like how some folks do by throwing Abby off a building, letting Ellie kill Abby in the theatre, letting Abby kill Ellie at the beach) would be fruitless. I hated Abby on Day 1, and I too wondered if I should just jump off a building. But I realized that It would only unnecessarily lengthen my time with the game and frustrate me more. It is a linear game. Only way out is through, as they say lol. And I am thankful that some studios are still out here ACTUALLY making narratively challenging games. I am so burnt out on formulaic, safe crap.
If love and hatred come from the same place then maybe someday the people who hated it will be able to see it in a different light. The game is comically over hated & honestly one of the most unique experiences I ever had with a story across any medium. In a weird way the fact that the game brought out such strong emotions out of the people who disagreed with it says a lot about it as an art piece..
I thought it became obvious by now TLOU 2 haters are vocal minority, 10% atmost, which is still huge. It's exactly why it felt like 50% people hated TLOU 2 in the beginning.
I just love that Naughty Dog took risks, we don’t get enough games willing to take risks anymore, studios are being forced more and more to play it safe, why? $, but the safe bet isn’t paying off anymore, we don’t get games like the last of us often.
10:10 With Marlene, there was another line right before that. As Joel was bargaining/in denial about what has to be down, Marlene says something like, "I have already been through this." Which I understood as that she's already gone through the same bargaining/denial/accepting that Ellie has to die. Absolutely loved both of these games.
This was an incredible video. I already loved this game but the parallels between our characters that you pointed out makes it so much better. Well done 👏🏼
I play part 1 at least every 2 years. While I agree part 2 was a monumental achievement, I have no desire to replay it. Maybe I’m soft, but that was one of the heaviest piece of media I’ve ever experienced. It legitimately put me in a dark head space for a few days after the credits rolled.
Lev does mention his mom? Right before Abby goes to the WLF hospital he talks about how he's worried profusely about his mom. And that he wishes he just ran away, so she was never caught up in this. Also saying "She's our mom" when Abby asks if she NEEDS to be taken care of, implying a deep bond between them to the point where it isn't if she NEEDS it Lev believes she deserves it no matter what.
8:56 not trying to diminish your point but I just recently finished replaying part 1 and there are audio tapes with Marlene showing how conflicted she is in allowing ellie to be killed for a vaccine. She's conflicted between her goal as a firefly vs her goal as ellies godmother.
You see in part 2 that Abby's dad isn't exactly sure it would work and doesn't care that it kills Ellie no matter whether he can find a cure or not. You see Marlene isn't thrilled with him and I think she can see he's a little full of himself. My first thoughts were: 1.) He made sure Ellie stayed unconscious from the moment they recovered her and Joel. Didn't even try to give her a say in the process. 2.) If he managed to make a vaccine, could they manufacture it on a massive scale? Their point was to try to bring the world back to how it was before. Look at how much resources they had to dig up just to be able to perform the procedure on Ellie. I doubt they have the resources to manufacture a vaccine on a massive scale I less it's something that could be easily created. He also made sure Joel didn't know what was going on and got annoyed when Marlene wanted to tell him. He knew that if he talked directly with Ellie and Joel, they likely would have asked the questions he didn't want asked.
@@davidb.6681Abby’s dad is 100% sure he can create the cure which is why he thinks sacrificing Ellie is worth it, he wishes he could create the cure without her dying but it’s not possible to.
I also get the feeling when Marlene says those things to Joel in the first game it's also her trying to convince herself that it's the right choice, not just Joel.
@@ZaZaa-g9z Nope. When Marlene is talking to him in he office you can clearly see that's he's not sure it will work. That's the entire point he doesn't want Ellie or Joel involved in the decision. Questions would be asked that he didn't want asked. Marlene herself was starting too ask those questions and it clearly annoyed him that she was asking about specific things. He would have no way of knowing if he could do it unless he does the procedure and gets the part of it out of her brain. He would have to get it out and figure out WHY it makes her immune. X-rays and blood work alone can't tell a person that information in this type of case. He needs the actual piece in her brain. Especially when it's never happened before. Keep in kind its an incurable condition that exists in nature and didn't affect humans. Then it suddenly did. Meaning it mutated and wouldn't work the same way it did in insects. Anything they knew about how not works in insects, wouldn't work the same way now. You completely ignored what else I pointed out. If he did find a cure, how would they have made it on a massive SAVE THE WORLD (the mission of the fireflies) scale when it took them an entire year just to gather what he needed to be able to perform what would actually be a simple procedure to remove it from her brain. Keep in mind that it was going to kill her no matter what so its not something he had to do and make sure she lived. He needed very specific equipment just to remove it and it took them a year to get it all. Unless a cure ended up being something surprisingly simple, they don't have the resources to manufacture a vaccine on a scale large enough to fix the world. Plain and simple FACT Try paying closer attention next time you play it ;)
@@davidb.6681 Jerry had been studying how the cordyceps works in other infected people for 20 years at this point, he already knew how it works even with the mutation, and he knew for sure it would work with Ellie, hence why he thought her sacrifice was worth it. I don’t need to pay better attention, child :)
I'm just wondering how all the people who's brain melted with rage over TLOU2 view other evocative and though-provoking pieces of art and media. Must be pretty simplistic, boring, surface level type of thinking.
Why are TLOU2 fans like this? Unironically saying "if you don't like the story, or even hated it, you must be simplistic, boring, and have a surface level type of thinking?" You guys are the most snobby bunch of "fans" I've ever seen for a game like this, and I hate the sequel even more knowing you guys are attempting to rub shoulders with actual The Last of Us fans. If I ever made a story that attracted people like you, I'd apologize.
I think people’s main issues with the last of us at least my main issue with it is the sudden switch to protagonists at what’s practically the climax of the story, playing a technically meaningless story for eight hours just to see the climax, then being hit with a SECOND climax, and also the tonal whiplash from the first game to the second one. The first game was dark but had very strong themes of love and family, and the seconds is about the cycle of violence and toxic codependency which is just such a what the f from the first game. Joel had to die to progress the story, and I will die on the hill that the last of us 2 has a beautiful story. But there were some crucial storytelling rules broken, and it ended up harming the pacing and feeling of the game.
Well structurally the theater fight would be the end of act 2 and the actual climax would be the fight at Santa Barbara. I get the pacing issues and I even complained about it in the video, but I wouldn't consider that moment the climax.
The VO for Joel said that he was very hesistent about a sequel until he actually read the script and said it's exactly what that sequel needed to be. He said he always asks fans what they would do for Part II that's so much better, and he's never heard anything that captures what they accomplished in the second game. The one thing I think the first game does consistently better is the pacing, but everything else imo is an improvement over the original. Also the open world level was a remnant of the original design of the game, which was to give you full access to Seattle. Honestly I would enjoy if TLOU III did something inspired by FromSoftware, with either a hub system or a central area with interconnected paths. So you can feel a large world but you're limited in each area.
Great video! I agree with lots of what you said and disagree with some of it. The reason why I love the open world section so much is that it feels realistic. A lesser game would have you find the WLFs immediately while this game takes its time to get there. It feels like the calm before the storm. And it allows you to sit with the feeling of losing Joel, that sadness, that anger. I love it but I can see where you’re coming from. Also I love how loyal Jesse is. Dina is there for emotional support while Jesse functions as Ellie’s conscience. That way, we can see just how far Ellie has fallen. But to each their own! And I love how Marlene is written here as it shows a different side. Throughout this game, we see how Ellie is perceived by different people, how Abby is perceived by different people, and our view of both of those characters come from us seeing both sides of these characters. The good, gentle side of them and the bad, aggressive side of them. Marlene is shown in a similar way. Worrying and concerned, but she shows her cold, ruthless side to Joel. Shows more inner conflict. I dug that approach.
TLOU 2 was good like very honest and brutal. However, I wish we could have gotten more out of Ellie and Joel relationship. Other than that, masterpiece
I saw a video recently that reframes TLOU2 as a 5-act tragedy (the example they used was Romeo and Juliet) rather than a 3-act standard story. It really shifted my whole perspective. I’ve really loved the game from day one, but I did question the length and pacing. The ‘reframe’ really opened my eyes into what they could’ve been trying to do.
This was a phenomenal analysis. Agreed with your dislikes and likes and every review of criticism. Showed you knew what you were talking about when most of the people hating don't
23:37 i think youre misunderstanding "drinkers" interpretation. Ellie isnt accepting the lie for joels sake, shes accepting the lie (only momentarily if you count TLoU2) that there is no cure so that she can be at peace and not be guilty that she's not withholding a cure from the whole world. Its still convoluted and an interpretation. Its easy to forget shes just a kid and has immense trust in joel at the end of part1. Its not a stretch to think she was able to convince herself to believe joel in this moment, or at the very least was naive enough to believe him in that moment. But the evidence that as she got older their relationship deteriorated, and that she returned to st marys hospital to prove her suspicions is pretty ample evidence for me that she just accepted joels lie for her own sanity in that moment, not for joels sanity.
11:40 Lev and Abby do have a small conversation about his mom during Day 2. The subtext is that he cares a lot for her. He wanted Yara to stay with their mom to take care of her. Not because she needs it, but because Lev cares for her.
I'll say one thing, this game is perhaps the most evocative piece of media I've ever been confronted with, to the extent that I to this day have a negative emotional response just by recalling its contents. It made me upset, annoyed, bored, frustrated, and (directionlessly) angry, but none of those emotions paid off in any sort of catharsis. There are many stories that are many magnitudes darker and distressing than this game, but those, by and large, managed to make me feel some sense of meaning, some pathos through and following the pain. TLOU2 in its ceaseless, meandering misery only made me numb and I honestly kind of went crazy for a while trying to cope amd isolate the exact cause of the borderline toxic mindset it saddled me up with lol. So yea, not a positive experience, but I'll forever remember it for how compounded negative emotions to the point where they stopped registering as such, never has a game lived so rent free in my head and I still can't say with absolute certaonty whT bothered me to the extent that it did (I got so lost in the sauce of scrutiny that I can't actually recall what put me off originally, totally normal non-obsessive behaviour, I know); I could point to a thousand cons, but it feels like none on its own would be egregious enough to justify my fundamental emotional rejection of this piece. If I had to isolate anything it'd be that it feels borderline didactic in its thematic messaging to the point where it feels like the writers are puppeteering and torturing the character you loved in whatever way required (sense of their actions be damned) to convey the most shallow of morals with the subtlety of a suckerpunch. But it wasn't just one suckerpunch, it was like you were voluntarily playing through your own beatdown. Will watch your vid in its entirety after some sleep and try to more reasonably ruminate on your ideas lol (also Succession bussin and can quite effectively be contrasted to TLOU2 in its rejection of traditional/predictable character development)
This exactly! After everything we go through, we get the ending of "violence bad" which is like who knew. And it's not just "violence bad", its violence bad being spoon fed to you through out the 25 hour game.
@@jaanaenkerro445 Edit: this word-vomit is what a boring two-hour train trip does to a mfer one other aspect that I in hindsight think is probably what made the game not work for me (besides the POV switch which ultimately obliterated any sense of rising tension), itself a product of the clumsy and heavy handed thematic framing, is the fact that almost none of the characters managed to be effectively sympathetic enough for me to dread or care about the predictably terrible fates they were working towards (Abby is actually the most humanly, or relatably, written character, her flaws, conflict, and priorities are defined and continuous throughout, with one decision derailing that consistency in regards to her priorities (keeping Lev safe), but nevermind). Regarding the side-characters, when you respond to the death of a person you've spent _hours_ connecting by rolling your eyes rather than feeling any emotion beyond exasperation, I think something went wrong. I prefer stories where the characters in them manage to convey something in relation to themselves as people during the time they're on screen, but so many TLOU2 character own their place in the plot only to act out the shock-value throw-away death they were seemingly created for (Jesse, Bald Girl, literally all of Abby's friends, Isaac (ostensibly), Tommy (though he gets resurrected as Evil Tommy, so all good), h ell, Even Joel's death was designed to put the plot in motion lol, i.e. inciting incident so that's acceptable despite clumsy execution). You might say that said characters' existences are valuable in that they managed to make the plot progress as it did, but it is exactly their existances being in service to the plot that makes them feel less like humans that died, but rather like devices that got decomissioned after exceeding their use (of course every story needs underdeveloped side-character, but these were given undue screentime to be considered as such imo). This apparent emphasis in the writers' approach to character handling is of course also what led to just so many baffling and incomprehensible instances of decision-making and behaviour that made it very difficult to feel like you were watching empathetic humans acting accordingly, which, unfortunately, finds its most horrific embodiment in our main characters' final confrontation (though it is equally marred by an ineptitude I'll try to dissect later). Anyway, the 'climax', try to follow along; ah yes, the woman who I've killed innumerable people in the hopes of murdering with whom my only interaction following the events that made me want to kill her at all involved her shooting my uncle in the head (blinding him), killing my close and innocent friend, giving my pregnant GF a quadruple concussion, and relishing the idea of consciously killing an unborn baby along with her before, on a whim, deciding that it'd be somehow sensible to give a second chance to the person responsible for killing literally _all_ of her (Abby's) close compatriots in revenge for killing one person (Joel) after just killing having killed two more (Jesse + Tommy, whk was as good as dead before his return as Evil Tommy); (back to Ellie) ah yes, let me, having come here for the sole purpose of killing her, cut her down from her death sentence and for some reason follow her into some shallow waters so we can have a cinematic knife fight to the death that'd ultimately kill whoever won either way, only for me to on an even less substantiated whim decide to spare her as well. Okay, that was the worst run-on sentence possibly ever devised and, more importantly, I don't enjoy this excercise or rationalising human behaviour, because ultimately it is sentiment that rules us, but sentiment as it is reasonably known to materialise in relation to real-world events, seems to be utterly absent in the badly (but fairly, I think) described above events. One would, however, not be unjustified in maintaining that Abby, in her search for redemption by helping Lev managed to develop an understanding of cyclical revenge or retaliation and an understanding of what it takes to end such cycles because her story dragged her through a conflict (that was not much concerned in depicting such a cycle, to be fair, the Scars were purposefully dehumanised to a comical extent), allowing her by some inconceivable magnitude of magnanimity to choose to be that end of the cycle (though she could just as well have ended it by killing everyone there that could choose in turn to perpetuate that cycle as she had no reason to believe they would not do if left alone). In the same vein, one could also maintain that Ellie somehow had remorse for the person she has comitted countless atrocities in search of killing because that very person spared her when she had just as much cause to do what she wants to be able to do in that later moment. The problem is that this to me utterly stretches credulity and there nowhere near enough meat on this headcannon of a bone for my emotional core to bite at. These characters have had essentially no interactions so it's basically unfeasible to gauge their dynamic or even guess at their exact opinions of one another (conjecture about their emotions doesn't carry much weight, so all I have to go on are the circumstances of their individual actions whose implications are too ridiculous to swallow). Also of note besides characters acting in ways antithetical to what common sense and bornal human behaviour would dictate, is the fact that the writers for some reason seemed to want to make Ellie not come across as the truly despicable person that she was throughout her odyssey of atrocity, mainly by making her to some extent not wholly responsible for every one of her cinematic murders (as well as through the flashbacks whose handling ends up genuinely frying my brain), though with Nora's Ellie was the aggressor, they made her as good as dead. However, despite such attempts, the player spent hours on hours comitting exactly those mindless murders that the writers sought to write around, and, as a result, Ellie suddenly growing a never before seen conscience when faced with killing the person she has the most reason to want to kill out of all the people she didn't hesitate to, comes out of absolutely nowhere, like the last 30 hours you spent with her were not spent with her at all, or that she has MPD. I genuinely still don't know why they bothered making those kill scenes so unbelievably silly for what it was worth, unless they just couldn't rule out a sequel where Ellie and Abby become allies or some shit. Of course the first guy is vaguely roughing up Dina, so Ellie can swoop in, of course Vita Girl draws a knife with another knife to her literal throat (yeah, that was dumb, Ellie), of course Nora would rather suffer through repeated pipe to brain injuries, forcing Ellie's hand, rather than idk, lying??, of course preggo lady is wearing a thicc-ass coat, of course Owen, the baby's father, doesn't say she's pregnant to protect her, of course Ellie waves her gun so Owen can do something stupid like grab a gun pointing at his damn wife, of course the pregnant lady pulls a knife on Ellie, pf course Ellie doesn't think not to kill them both despite needing them to find Abby (not relevant: of course she leaves a map to their _exact_ location 🤦♂️). That aside lol, to me the epitomy of ineptitude emblematic to the writers' failure to commit to an approach for framing Ellie's morality (even within their own cut-scenes irrespective of the murderous gameplay, no appeal to leudonarrative dissonance to be made lol) comes with the game's reveal within the convenient flashback that it seems like the writers wanted us to think motivated her retraint (somehow), which revealed that her decision to set off on her pursuit of violence, death, and degradation was not (as the game had misled you into believing) in large part motivated by her desperate desire to quell the unbearble guilt of her final words to Joel being ones that conveyed the exact oposite of how she felt about him (an aspect of the story that went very far to sell and reasonably justify the lengths Ellie went in search of remedying her despair). Instead, it seems that she actually had a nice final chat that makes her entire murderous escapade read as suddenly unsubstantiated, making you think, okay so she's just much more of ruthless murderer than I thought, but no, actually she saves Abby in _spite_ of killing hundreds in response to her emotional recollection, so she's actually learnt to be compassionate and good?? Well no, this is a flashback, meaning that either she responded to it in the way the writers make it seem; that she only in that _final_ moment realised her heart hadn't actually been in it when she'd been killing without hesitation, 'lemme put the brakes on this escapade now before it gets out of hand', making her an utterly unpredictable psycho, or the flashback is just to make the player think there's something more going on than there is, meaning she still commited those atrocities only to just now change her mind without even so much as a flashback to prompt her, making her perhaps even more psychotic than the first iteration, idk honestly. In this convoluted equation that sprung to life via the insertion of a mere flashback it becomes impossible to have any founded idea as to who she even is anymore or what she might do, instead she almost devolves into an incomprehensible force of chaotic unpredicability that I can have no feelings in relation to and cannot fathom to be an understandable character called Ellie.
@@jaanaenkerro445 I genuinely think that if the story was to go any way leading up to the ending, then it'd have been much more impactful (let alone believable and comprehensible) to have Ellie kill Abby in the hopes that it'd disolve her despair, that it'd make the trauma she put herself through somehow worth it, and make her abhorrent behaviour towards Dina in some way justified, only for her to sit in silence next to the corpse of a character that the game managed to make you empathise with whilst she looks at the unconscious body of a child whom she deprived of her only caregiver, finding no solace in this horror she perpetrated. That'd would've decisively sold a message at the very least (rather than trying to dip one finger into two buckets; making the entire thing non-sensical), it would have used the unrelenting horror you had to endure to at least some meaningful extent rather than just dismissing it as borderline filler. Hell, they could've cut the story with her contemplating whether or not to kill Lev, putting her full circle into the position Abby was in when she decided to spare her after killing Joel, or they could still do a sequel where she in some way retraces Joel's experience in coming to terms with her atrocities or seeking to rekindle meaningful connections, idk. If there's one message this story _did_ manage to send home, it's that when you pursue revenge, make sure to finish the job, and unless that wasn't their intention, I'd say good job. Fanfics aside, I would've preferred a lot of things better than Ellie losing her fingers to _literally_ symbolise her loss of a valuable connection to Joel as a direct result of seeking revenge by having her pretend she can never play guitar again (she can, just need to rewire the strings) to then leave her surrogate father's beloved possession to succumb to weather damage so she can dramatically walk of screen... If there is anyone who bothers to read this for that identified some aspect of the story that I might be repressing or talking around or am too tunnelvisioned to see, please do let me know. Why did i spend an hour writing this? 💀
It wasnt until I finished Ellie part Day 1 is my favorite. At first I thought it was weird for it to be so slow but Essentially that Level is literally Ellie's and Dina first date and then they essentially shock the players by the end of that day.
I went back to TLOU2 recently and it's not as bad as I thought it was the first time, but it's still got issues that stop it from being on the same level as the first game. I like Abby, but the way they did her story and some of her dialogue makes it harder to feel sympathy for her. The game should've been a mix of Abby's story and Ellie discovering what Joel did to the Fireflies at the start, then move into Abby killing Joel and Ellie hunting her down, and then either just cut the entire last section with the Rattlers or make it so Ellie and Abby are forced to work together there instead of forcing that pathetic fight. How are you gonna make us play as Abby to feel sympathy for her, then have her eager and glad to kill a pregnant woman? At least Ellie didn't know Mel was pregnant and was obviously traumatized when she discovered what she did, Abby was happy the woman she was about to kill was pregnant. Also, that fight in the theater you should've played Ellie not Abby. Not only would that be what most people want, but it would help their attempt at making her sympathetic more. You start to doubt Ellie's tactics and what she's doing then you go to see Abby as more than just a heartless monster, then you have to fight her, and most would be conflicted at that. Moving on, Jesse, Dina and Tommy deserved better. I know Tommy would be broken from Joel's death, but there's no way the Tommy we've come to know would guilt trip Ellie for not wanting revenge, and why did it take so long to show him in Seattle? He should've joined them way sooner so we could see him more. Same for Jesse and Dina, they both come to Seattle to help Ellie, but either do a different task or get too sick to continue on. Let us see these new characters more so we can like and get attached to them. I already loved Jesse from the beginning, but you can't introduce a new character, have him gone for a while, reintroduce him to the story, make it go away again, then just kill him. I love Dina and Ellie as characters, but I personally can't see them together because we didn't get enough. We just hear about them kissing suddenly, then they go off and get high then get it on. Seattle was the perfect time to build their relationship, but instead they just took Dina out of the story to make a parallel between Dina and Mel.
You bring up some interesting points, and yeah even in the video I agreed that the theater fight should've been played from Ellie's perspective. As for Tommy, I think the reason he guilt tripped Ellie to not wanting revenge was because he was secretly planning on leaving and didn't want Ellie coming with her. It's why he later encourages Ellie to get revenge in the third act of the game, since at that point he physically is unable to. Also, yes, I do wish we could've seen more much more Dina and Jesse. It's too bad they probably won't be in Part 3.
@@robynmateo I see that reasoning for Tommy, I think if it was set up a little better it would've worked, I think it could've been cool if we run into Tommy as he kills those 2 guys in the hotel he tortured for information. Could've been a dark moment for the players and Ellie and Dina. An interesting idea I'm shocked didn't happen since the game did so well is a DLC of Tommy's 3 days in Seattle, Tommy has always been one of my favorite characters so him not really being in both games really sucks. Maybe part 3 could have him some more but considering the state he's in at the end of part 2 I don't see it happening.
It's too bad DLC isn't quite as common for games as they used to be (at least it seems that way for me, I don't play as many games as I used to) because TLOU2 DLC as Tommy would be kinda amazing ngl
Well the only reason she was “eager” to kill Dina is bc she thought Ellie had killed Mel knowing she was pregnant. In that moment she was feeling the same rage Ellie felt at her for killing Joel. We as the player know that Ellie didn’t know Mel was pregnant, but Abby thinks she did. And the whole reason she went after Ellie at the theater was for revenge because of Owen and Mel. And imo, the reason she lets them go is not only Levs little interruption, but bc she knows it won’t do anything for her. It won’t bring her friends back, it won’t make her feel better, it’s just more death. And she knows this now because throughout the game we see that even after she killed Joel, she still wasn’t satisfied, she still had nightmares about her dad plaguing her. She realised that killing him for her and caused more pain to others. So to me it made all the sense that she would want to kill Dina even after learning she was pregnant.
Gotta point out that there’s a whole convo about Lev and his mom once you get out of the elevator building before Abby gets caught by Scars on the way to get medicine for Yara
I disagree with a few of your criticisms for personal reasons, but there's also a few like the one about Marlene that I believe you really missed the mark on. In The Last of Us (all versions) the two following recorders for Marlene explain her mindset in Part I and Part II: Marlene's recorder 1: "it's 5:30PM on... April 28th. I just finished speaking... More like yelling at our head surgeon. Apparently there's no way to extricate the parasite without eliminating the host. Fancy way of saying we gotta kill the fucking kid. And now they're asking for my go ahead. The tests just keep getting harder and harder, don't they? I'm so tired. I'm exhausted and I just want this to end... So be it." Marlene's recorder 2: "Hey Anna... It's been awhile since we spoke. I uh... I just gave the go ahead to proceed with the surgery. I really doubt I had much of a choice, asking me was more of a formality. I need you to know that I've kept my promise all these years... despite everything that I was in charge of, I looked after her. I would've done anything for her, and at times... Here's a chance to save us... all of us. This is what we were after... what you were after. They (Marlene's Boston crew) asked me to kill the smuggler. I'm not about to kill the one man in this facility that might understand the weight of this choice. Maybe he can forgive me. Oh, I miss you, Anna. Your daughter will be with you soon." As for Lev leaving for Haven; while it could've been setup more, it's important for Abby and Lev's development because Lev's parental figure died and Abby seemingly takes on that guardian role after that for Lev, Abby bonds with Lev because it makes her think of her trauma and past. Prior to this she even implies that she believes that she's not doing this for solely selfish reasons like she did in the past to Yara. It also further comments on perspective and dehumanizing the enemy even if you find out it's Tommy quickly in Day 3. (I will criticize the fact that they kind of handwave a reason for them not going back for the boat though) The point of fighting Ellie as Abby is the cognitive dissonance, you're seeing Ellie through Abby's perspective, and I think it's supposed to make you feel a bit unsettled, and it further pushes the idea of not seeing Ellie nor Abby as heroes or villains, but pure survivors. You might very well be willing to let Abby die, but it works for you, if you feel a shred of care for Abby, yet really don't want to kill Ellie and are conflicted then I would argue that it did its job. I don’t want to come off just fanboying for this game, I actually think I have more issues than you do plot-wise and even thematically regarding the Rattler's section, but for me this wasn't it.
Just subscribed. I really enjoy your critical breakdowns on media texts. I've just flicked through some other of your videos too and they're well produced. I hate the UA-cam algorithm and how it hasn't grabbed your content yet. Love from the UK xx
GREAT freaking video. Definitely had a few "damn I didn't think about that" moments. I always loved both even though they killed Joel. I didn't fully understand the negative criticism the 2nd game got.
I will never understand those who say the story is bad in The Last of Us Part 2. It's not only about revenge is bad. It's about how obsession and hatred can turn even the best people we know and love into people we will not recognize. It's about being able to have respectful conversations about our differences and actually become interested in what we view in life and why we are so different from each other. The cut from Ellie's storyline into Abby's is done on purpose by Naughty Dog. First they fill you up with all this hate and you feel the same hate as Ellie after Joel's death and all you want to do is to play the game so you can have your brutal revenge on Abby. Then they do the cut into Abby's part to make you even more mad for playing as Abby. Because all you wanna do is to have your revenge. They basically did that on purpose making you want to put your controller down and not play the game. But if you push through and give her part a chance you will understand that a coin has two sides. I've never had a video game made such a huge impact on me and thats why I think it's one of the best video games ever made. PS. Great video. My favorite part is here 1:02:26 so good!
Its a story about Tramua and self hate. Ellie cant forgive herself for wasting all this time being rightfully pissed of at Joel. Then Abby has nothing going for her who is she, why are her and her friends so stupid to let Ellie go. Abby just tortured joel in front of ellie and still decides to let her go and not expecf Ellie to come after her. They do nothing useful with Abby. You cant give a redemption arc to someone you know nothing about or if they even deserve one
I think it might actually be the pacing that turned folks off and then there was no redeeming it. The plot line could have benefitted from a game or solid DLC in between TLoU and TLoU2. A good story told poorly will only resonate with some. A lot of what people were complaining about plot-wise would have been resolved with a better narrative set up.
TLOU2 is, factually, a rejected pitch for the first game lazily recycled to be the sequel. Neil Druckmann treated TLOU2 not as a sequel to the story, but a do-over to tell the story he originally wanted to tell, but with Abby instead of Joel and Ellie instead of Tess. He did this because he's a failed comic author and knew Abby can not carry a story on her own, so he needs to try and hijack a franchise to try and push her, because people can associate a good franchise with a bad story to prop up that bad story. If it weren't for the name alone, you'd be treating it like the author's other failed work and pointing out how Abby's obsession led to her having friends who'd die for her just to stall someone hunting her, living in luxury where she can bulk out and go to the gym and casually SA people under the influence of alcohol and still be treated as a hero, so her obsession seemed to work out just fine until Ellie entered the plot.
I think the problem with Marlenes inconsistency is a valid complaint to have but I also think it makes a lot more sense when you take into account who she's speaking to in both of those scenes. The way I see it, she is someone whos pretty much down the middle. She sees both sides of this dilemma and she's just upset that she even has to be the one to make the call at all. In the scene with jerry she's talking to someone whos very much on the side of "get the vaccine no matter what it takes" so in my mind it makes sense that she would play to the other side of that argument. Then in the scene with Joel She's clearly trying to convince him that its about the greater good but she's also trying to convince herself. I also think there's a little side of her that feels like she needs to intimidate Joel so he doesn't try to make any rash decisions. I'm sure in Marlenes mind she was just hoping Joel wouldn't wake up until after the surgery was done so that she didn't have to deal with this Joel but rather just a grieving Joel.
I think a couple of reasons they have you play as Abby during the fight with Ellie is 1) to show that Abby can beat Ellie even with the major disadvantage of having no gear (it makes more sense to have the player play the character that wins that fight, imo) and 2) to show how scary Ellie is as an opponent. I actually LOVED playing this fight against Ellie because she was so lethal and terrifying, it was cool to see it from the other side.
I'm a certified Critical Drinker hater, but I semi agree with his take about the ending of Part I. I don't think Ellie knows the trurth, but she clearly suspects something, otherwise she wouldn't have made Joel swear. The fact she is suspicious of Joel is confirmed in Part II when she keeps asking him about it and eventually goes out to see it for herself. I think she is willing to believe Joel at the end of Part I because at that point he is all she has and her biggest fear is being alone, but as time passes and she starts forming meaningful relationships with other people and distancing from Joel she becomes more willing to question him. Anyway, great video!
agree! Also it is absolutely weird the story of "oh yeah they drugged you and set you to operate, but then they were like nah, and gave me this car to just leave without even you waking up, seeing marlene, etc." And the "sad eyes bc of Riley isn't it either. It is a sad moment in general, yeah, but it is totally a look, a movement on her eyes while she's debating what's next before saying "ok"
Eh, with everything has happened since then my view of the game has changed. It's like a youtuber named Bricky said about it "A bunch of good apples being spoiled by those 4-5 bad apples" it's not the worst game by far, but it's still not the greatest.
The only thing I have to say about Abby and her physique isn’t even a criticism, but I just wonder how she’s able to maintain the amount of muscle she does while she’s in Santa Barbara long after she left the WLF. I’m definitely not a gym head or anything like that, but I live on a farm and I’m constantly lifting and moving around, causing me to have a muscular body. My sisters and some of my cousins also live the farm life, and they are in really good shape as well. But they don’t look like Abby. Their arms are muscular, but not big like hers. No doubt a lot of walking and fighting infected is definitely going to keep her in shape, but since she’s not living at the stadium anymore and doesn’t have access to the gym and regular food, I figured she’d would just lose some muscle mass and be more slim. But idk, maybe I’m looking too much into it
If you believe the in-canon explanation, the reason she's more bulky than even the RPG-type big-slow melee-wielding enemies is because she just works out that hard. The *actual* explanation is that Neil Druckmann interfered with the character design. See, he (a straight hetero cis male, all relevant as you'll see) wanted Abby to be "trans friendly" so he compiled a few different women kitbashed together digitally, then had the designers go *off model* to bulk up her arms and tone down feminine characteristics. No trans person was consulted on this, this is just what Neil thinks trans people would identify with. If you want to see why this is bad, take one look at Lev, who was designed *with input* from a trans person, and actually looks like a human. It's like Laurence Olivier playing Othello opposite James Earl Jones, but in an age where they should know better. Same thing kinda happened with Uncharted 4, though not as egregious, where Neil had Laura Bailey play a woman of color, so it's certainly a pattern of his to have Bailey "represent" a minority group, without actually gauging if that minority group wants that representation or if they identify with that.
@@crazyinsane500 No one said Abby was trans, tho. She’s just buff. And if you ain’t know, there are some really muscular woman out there in the world. People call them “Mommies”
@@Xaixiu Correct, Abby is not trans. She was designed to be "trans friendly." A term Neil Druckmann used to mean trans coded . . . Through *his* interpretation of what a trans coded character is like. Hence the Laurence Olivier vs James Earl Jones comparison between Abby vs Lev made in my comment.
I'm not sure how she was designed to be "trans friendly". Seems more like she was designed to be muscular. You don't need to consult trans people to design a cis character.
I find it ironic everyone felt the same rage Ellie did when Joel died but like Tommy they couldn’t let it go so much it destroyed the game for them… can’t say they didn’t pull at the heart strings. I’d say that checks the box for being on the same level of emotional impact of part 1.
I’ve grown to like it throughout the years. Playing it 3 times on grounded made it a more intimate experience. The AI on grounded is on a whole other level. It’s a shame that as far as I know, there hasn’t been a game with enemy AI this good (Cough Star Wars outlaws) I was very very impressed with how they got this beauty of a game running on a BASE PS4. Absolute wizardry.
At its core, I just dislike how the game tries to make Ellie's actions seem equal to Abby's actions. That seems like such a wildly incorrect way to view the story, but its the view the developers had. Its a shame because I liked the characters as characters, but I don't think they were utilized correctly in the story. And while people DEFINITELY blew their hate for the game out of proportion, I feel like a lot of people defaulted to saying the story was good out of obligation. It tried new things, so we must say it succeeded whether it did or not.
@@gavinevans1687 Its not equal because one's revenge isn't like the others. Perhaps I have a negative view of the fireflies, but I never for one second believed they could create a cure. TLOU2 did nothing to convince me that they could; one guy just said he could make the first ever fungal vaccine. In that regard Joel was the hero for stopping yet another Firefly atrociety. However, there's another issue that has nothing to do with my opinion. Joel losing his daughter, and refusing to lose Ellie seemed to put forth a message that a single senseless sacrifice is meaningless. Ellie would have died just like Sarah; for nothing. The narrative is a closed loop there. Or, in TLOU2, Joel didn't make Abby watch him beat her father to death, Abby ruined all of her friend's life due to her quest for revenge and more that I don't feel like writing in a youtube comment section. Despite the writers best efforts, I can't see Abby as anything other than a selfish, murderous lunatic who cares for nothing but her own feelings. Ellie isn't like that, and I'd go so far as to say its despicable for the writers to even try to say they're the same. Why do people give the writers that kind of grace in that regard?
@@luckyducky7819 Both acts of revenge are the exact same. Abby lost her father to Joel, Ellie lost her father figure to Abby. All other information is irrelevant to them. The game makes it clear that a cure was possible, that is what the game tells you. Doesn't matter if you believe it, it's stated as an objective fact and Marlene wouldn't let Ellie die if it weren't for some higher purpose. Joel couldn't let Ellie die... that's why he rescued her. It made sense for a character who has lost so much to act like he did. Whether it was right or wrong is something the game leaves up to the player to discuss. It doesn't have an answer but his actions do have consequences. That's why Abby comes into the picture. Joel's actions were because he couldn't let Ellie die, Abby's goal was to actively kill Joel just like Ellie's goal was to actively kill Abby. Ellie's friends and Abby's friends paid a price as well for their selfish goals. If you don't see Abby as anything other than a "selfish, murderous lunatic who cares for nothing but her own feelings" than that's a you problem. The game fleshes her out as a fully realized individual, someone who can do terrible, evil acts, and someone who can care for and help others. There's a duality, just like Ellie. There's good and evil inside all of us. We Abby do something truly horrific but we also see her do some good and try to be a better person. Ellie was acting like a selfish, murderous lunatic, but the end of the game, we see there's still hope for her to be good again. The two characters are so similar.
@@gavinevans1687 Your first paragraph misses something important: its not irrelevant to the player, and that's the most important thing here. From their perspective, they can be similar and that can also be dead wrong. I'm going to skip over most of your post because there's noting wrong with your opinion, and again I'm not having a debate about this game in the youtube comment section. However, I will say that I find people's opinions about Abby very strange. They try to make her out to seem like more than she is, and in my experience, they vaguely gesture to a bunch of subtle things about her to say he's actually a good person, or even THE good person. I found that reasoning foolish in the past, and I wonder if I'll find it foolish again. Still, there's something you missed about Ellie and Abby: Ellie had to be pushed to kill, Abby relished in it. Killing was easy for her, so I find your talk of Ellie becoming a good person "again" bizarre. She never stopped being a good person, and its sad you even think she did. The writers might have wanted you to, but all of the WLF were horrible people who'd shoot first. Tell me, _why_ do you think Ellie stopped being a good person? Because she killed a pregnant lady? Because I've lost respect for the writers for even putting that scene in the game in the first place. They WANTED Ellie to appear as a bad, or even the worst person, but they egregiously failed. And no amount of vague gesturing to subtle BS about the characters will change that in my eyes. In fact, this game has actually made me despise subtlety as a writing technique. I think some writers use it as a crutch.
@@luckyducky7819 Couldn't disagree more. The player is not a character in the game. Ellie and Abby are the characters, they both lose someone they love, and they respond the same exact way. Abby's entire storyline is that she feels like shit after what she did to Joel. She spent so many years waiting for that moment, she sacrificed so much, and it didn't make her feel better. Her goal of helping Lev and Yara is her trying to redeem herself. Whether or not she succeeds is up to the gamer to decided. Joel was a terrible person until Ellie came into his life, same thing with Abby... she was a terrible person until Lev and Yara came into her life. Abby had to be pushed to kill just as much as Ellie. Yes, Abby tortured Joel but guess what? Ellie tortured Nora, Tommy tortured that one dude, and Ellie would've tortured Abby if she found her in Seattle. Ellie is not a good person for most of the game. She's prioritizing her revenge quest over her girlfriends' well being, she's deceiving her friends, she tortured Nora, and yes she killed a pregnant woman. Why did you lose respect for them putting that scene in the game? The point is that Ellie is becoming selfish and only focused on getting her revenge on Abby. Just like Abby became selfish and only focused on getting her revenge on Joel. The game shows how everyone is capable of both good and evil. It just seems like you don't like the challenging aspects of this story and fine, to each their own. But if you're mad about the game being subtle then it's a you problem. It's not a crutch, it's good writing.
I disagree with the part about Marleen seeming out of character. I think she can have reservations about Ellie dying in front of Jerry (who seems to be her only other equal)while putting on a strong front to Joel and any firefly subordinates to not show weakness after agreeing to go through with the surgery.
cant state how much i agree with a lot of your point, and i also wanna add: i feel like a lot of people angry about tlou2 are specifically angry about joels death, bc they projected this mascuine ideal on him and (wrongly) identify with him, and how dare they have that be ruined by having him be killed by a FEMALE?!?!?!?!? (and im saying wrongly identify with him, bc they often WANT TO identify with their version of their fav ALPHA MALE character, ignoring that joel has been living a relative comfortable life for 5 years now and was around 60 years towards his end.) like i hated his death, bc i identify joel and ellies relation ship with that of me and my own father, but i also ... well i dont wanna say enjoy or like but those words fit the best i guess, bc it fit, it made sense for a character like joel to go like that. and i fucking CRIED. i also wanna point out that i just hate it when people argue against realistic female characters bc " games are escapism" like,,,, sure, and maybe i want to use games to escape from the world where the white cisgender heterosexual man is in the spotlight, and i want to escape from the world where woman are oversexualized and disrespected, so.... i GUESS some games DO in fact work for escapism uh.... these people lack the ability to see the world beyond the tip of their noses.
@@dwaynegarret7771regarding food, good thing the wlf had plenty of it to go around then And idk what you mean by joel forgetting his way of living, if it's in regards to giving away his name, tommy did that, not joel And the insult/you don't understand the world parts of this comment aren't arguments
@@andrejv.2834 I can’t even see my comment anymore, good you can tho. There is not plenty of food. It’s sustainable, not abundant. Which for body building, which is what Abby did, is not feasible. 1° Point Debunked. Yes, Tommy did give their names, but there is more to experience than just naming yourself, why did he go to the center of the room? Even Tommy had his back to the wall, this is illogical to extremes & will always be. The fact they do patrols everyday should keep those instincts in check, yet they vanished. 2° Point Debunked. As I said, can’t even see my comment so I don’t know about insult, but the world part, yes, you don’t understand, neither do I or anyone else. We try to understand & explain logically how it should be, but when an American went to Iraq or Afghanistan, they knew they had a home to go back to family & order in their home. In TLOU’s World, that hope does not exist, there isn’t that certainty of going back to comfort. It’s an environment much darker & vicious than anything we’ve ever had. There’s no safety, no harmony & no hope.
@@dwaynegarret7771 so I can't see your comment either now, anyway "There is not plenty of food. It’s sustainable, not abundant. Which for body building, which is what Abby did, is not feasible" They have a canteen that serves food, no one is going hungry, and abby is the wlf's top assassin, so they probably went out of their way to get her what she needs to get ripped and keep her happy "why did he go to the center of the room? Even Tommy had his back to the wall, this is illogical to extremes & will always be" Because tommy isn't untrustworthy of strangers, even joel isn't by the time he meets sam and henry in part 1 Also they had just saved those strangers' lives and had no reason to think they'd be in danger Also also, not like their positions mattered as they were severely outnumbered, and are also two older dudes going against a bunch of younger guys, and as this isn't part 1 where an old joel can beat up people half his age, they literally had no advantages in this situation, the moment tommy gave out their names it was over for joel And your comment about not understanding the world was in response to the op saying they might want escapism from a world where women are oversexualised (real world), you then started that rant about not understanding how the world works or whatever
calm down, the whole point is that ppl are mad at joels death (a character who is portrayed as strong and stoic) its not that a female killed him, its the fact that someone killed him. game are escapism and the majority of ppl who play games are strait men (omg how evil) so why wouldnt they want slightly unrealistic female characters, there is nothing wrong with that, also nothing wrong with realistic characters like ellie and abby. you are taking ppls criticisms of the games story (which i very much enjoy) and projecting them onto men because of ur own inherent bias and distain for men
I love the first game more for its compactness, but Part 2 is still an excellent sequel that took some great risks, which most don’t even do. It’s the difference between a 10 and a 9.
9:06 Marlene being conflicted in the first game isn't even subtext, it's literal text in the very scene with Joel you reference. "I get it, but whatever it is you think you're going through right now is nothing to what I have been through. I knew her since she was born. I promised her mother I would look after her." "Then why are you letting this happen?" "Because this isn't about me or even her. There is no other choice here."
I’d like to add a 4th reason to Abby being muscular building off a comment you made. She’s extremely intimidating and anyone hunting her down must be a crazy person.
No, Ellie doesn't believe Joel at the end of the first game. She's just accepting that Joel is lying to her. She's not sure to what extent, but knows she isn't gonna get anything out of him and needs to drop it. Even Ashley Johnson said that when she did the scene, her interpretation of Ellie's "Ok" was: "Ok, you're lying to me, and our relationship isn't what I thought it was. I've gotta figure out how to deal with that on my own."
Not sure why my other comment isn't showing up, but you can Google what Neil Druckman said about the ending, and it's very similar to what Ashley said. No one who worked on the game interprets it as Ellie believing Joel. That's supported in the 2nd game by the fact that Ellie doesn't believe Joel. Lol That's why she has to go find out for herself and why they had grown distant after the first game.
@robynmateo Well, sure. Druckman did say it's open to interpretation, regardless of his intentions with it, and he supports people having different interpretations, so I guess this is pretty much the definition of agree to disagree. Maybe I came on too strong by saying no, your interpretation is wrong. So I apologize. That's just not how I interpreted the ending and not how the writer or actor who portrayed it intended it.
i think a lot (most) of the hate around this game comes in the form of overlooking details or misunderstanding plot points/themes and would even go as far as to say many of yr criticisms also fall under that umbrella. all said, great video, looking forward to more
Okay So I just wanted to say I liked this video A lot. I'm a massive fan of the games in general So I always appreciated hearing amore positive view on it for once. That being said there was a a few things that I felt needed to be mentioned at the beginning of the video that I just wanted to voice. Not really trying to convince you or anyone else otherwise, I'm just bringing in my point of view to the table. So about the part where ya hated the Open world section at the beginning of Seattle. I always looked at it more of kind of realistic situation, cause the previous scene makes you want to go in guns blazing but much like reality you kind of have to go through the mundane tasks of preparation. I mean even the game itself plays off of Ellie's emotions in this section. She's getting impatient, she just want's to find the people that started this, but she is having to be forced to slow down. It's a more subtle way of bringing reality into the game I think. More so than it is an opportunity for Naughty Dog to show of. As far as the switch up with Marlene between the two games. i always thought that the reason why we are seeing two sides is because in the first game we are seeing it from Joels Perspective. Strictly from his perspective. But even then if you listen to the tapes that you find at the end of the first game. Marlene does have some sorrow that comes with this situation. it always felt like that she was hesitant of doing it, but even in those tapes she mentions/ hints at the fact that it probably would've been done with or without her permission because that's just how desperate everyone, especially the doctors are. So when you compare that to the Marlene we see in part II. It makes sense and it does follow along with her character. If you look at just the cutscenes alone then yea it gets confusing but when you are taking the time to read her journal as well as listen to the tapes. It's on point with her character. Again awesome video and everything else I can agree with you on.
Interesting, I recently thought about why they decided for you having to play Abby (and even having to try Killing Ellie) and my explanation was, that they wanted the player to feel the hatred that Ellie is harbouring. Now I find your video and you basically describe the same thought, but going much deeper with the interesting concept of clone characters and metaphors. Thanks for taking the time in the video to elaborate those concepts and views! Though you could argue, while Joel and Abby both are protector kind of persons, Abby is somewhat a clone character of Ellie, or vice versa: Their most beloved person got killed, which fills them with anger, hatred and lust for revenge. PS: So maybe naugthy dogs goal is achieved, just instead that the gamers who hated (!) the game didn't go on a physical revenge hunt, but used todays ways of expressing this through social media. 😅
The last of us 1 gameplay its mid but the Story is amazing, the last of us 2 story is good(didnt like too much havib to play as Abbie) and the gameplay is amazing, i dont understand How people say its a bad game, must be fortnite players or sum
Judging by the comments I'm definitely in the minority lol. Idk Jesse never seemed interesting to me, but that must just be me I guess. I will say that the open world section is a lot of fun to explore (it's also really cool to drive into downtown Seattle and realize how accurate the game was).
your complaint about the dissonance of you fighting ellie as abby is literally the point. the point of that fight, like LOTS of the game is to do something you do not agree with, getting the feeling of “shit i should NOT be doing this”. then again you get the same feeling fighting abby as ellie, thats why they are both so frail in the last fight, it all feels wrong. anyone sane would also have had the same feeling playing the last portion of the first game rescuing ellie. that whole massacre is supposed to make you feel bad for doing it. even if most gamers are psycopaths and that flew straight thru their heads
Finished the video and it was excellent. This was the game that showed me how shallow internet critics can actually be. It's completely 100% fine to hate the game if you hate that Joel died, but at least own it. Instead, they try to convince you the game has bad writing when it's actually incredibly well thought out and some of the best of it's medium.
-Overuse of Deux ex machina -Highly hypocritical -Poorly executed Whatever the video has to say, i will not change my pov of the game because what i stated is uniquevocably true. AND I'M NOT one of those that dislike the game because they killed Joel, neither because they killed him the way they did, i like when a game, movie, series, has the balls to take risks, but because of how highly pretentious it was while simultaneously miserably failing to deliver its message properly. Can you imagine if TLOU part 2 was about ABBY ONLY, how great i would've been? NO JOEL OR ELLIE in the trailer, just her and new characters, we control her from the beginning and we learn that she wants to avenge her father's death, we grow fond of her and her friends with no unnecessary hypocrisy (like when the game wants you to feel bad for what you did but it basically forces your to do some actions to advance in the story) and then, at the end of the game, at the very end, we found the guy that killed her father, AND IT HAPPENS TO BE JOEL, how MINDBOGGLINGLY GOOD IT WOULD'VE ACTUALLY BEEN, there you would've had truly conflicted feelings, the game would've REALLY managed to express it's imessage, while having an EPIC plot twist.
I think it’s good overall but I think both sides feed each other. I don’t think it’s close to being better than the first one, it isn’t the best story of revenge and redemption but it’s good. It also isn’t complete shite, the gameplay is fun and the story is compelling. I do think killing Joel was a mistake because they couldn’t replace him with any character as interesting as him. I think Abby could’ve been but I don’t think we have enough time with her for her change from a solider to a parent to lev. We had the entire 10-12 hour game over a few months to see Joel’s change. We instead have 6 hours taking place over 3 days. I think the idea for the same is great and interesting but maybe doesn’t work for the last of us. My personal issue is after Joel’s death, I really didn’t care about any of the characters, I feel Like the game is stretched too thin. We don’t spend enough time with Jesse, Dina, Abby, lev, yara, manny, Owen or the pregnant one. The game takes place over several years technically but I think again it’s too spread thin. We spent 80% of the game over 4 days. Then skip several months and have several flashbacks through different years. A lot of the levels kinda lead to nothing like how the video mentions the first part of game looking for gas and where Ellie plays guitar for Dina. I think Abby should’ve been more compelling/ consistent. I sympathise with her backstory but because I like Joel and Ellie I really don’t give a damn about Jerry. I could ramble about what the game direction should’ve been but In short I think it should’ve been about Abby being part of the last fireflies seeking to find Ellie to make a cure, I think if she was suppose to kill Joel ot should’ve been later in the game after giving him a chance to leave maybe after severally injuring him in the prologue. I think people would’ve enjoyed her character more, liking her character isn’t important but understanding and enjoying what she does is. I think she should’ve been a clear antagonist. We can have development and see her side but her main goal should be constantly opposing to Ellie’s. I didn’t like Abby because she was kinda wishy washy, she’s no offence a bit boring. After she kills Joel she has nothing left really, which is in part tied to how revenge gets you noting but I don’t think we need some orphan to be given a suragote parent in Abby. I think they should’ve given her a clear moral responsibility she feels she has. She wants to complete her father work but in trying to do she faces constant moral dilemmas, does she kill Joel? Do to Ellie but Joel did her? How would Ellie feel? Would she go through with it if given a second chance?
First of, whatever I'm going to say, congrats on actually getting your opinion out without being a dick about it, especially on the mine field that this game's discourse is. I want to say that because, I don't want to come of as a hater of your video, or you. Absolutely not my type of interaction. Now just to be clear on where I stand on the game's appreciation, I didn't like the game at all. I thought it was a pointless exercise in misery that managed to take twice the length of the first episode to say less than half. It's for me the prime example of a game that way less than the sum of his part. Also, I'm team Abby, I didn't relate to Ellie's plight at all. And I don't think killing Joel, in a gruesome matter, was an issue either. Makes perfect sense emotionally and narratively for how that character was portrayed. Now that being said, I am a bit disappointed I just watch an hour long video titled "The Last of Us 2 is Good, Actually" that tries to tell me why in the last about 10-15 min, but focuses for 35 min on the worst, most nitpicky and most bad faith arguments against the game that you can find out there. You have great videos being positive about that game : HelloFutureMe and LadyKnightTheBrave both made great thematic analysis. I disagree with how successful the game is with what they put forward, but their arguments are not pushing against low bro "plotholes" that in the grand scheme of things don't matter. You have SoSaysJay who recently put out a video about the stealth system of the game (unfair of me to say because you release yours before, but just an example of an actual defense of the game). These videos, even when I disagree with their conclusions, are doing a good job expressing why "The Last of Us 2 is Good, Actually". And NakeyJakey made a great and hilarious charge against the game and Naughty Dogs' game design in general. And in terms of more balanced critic of the nitpicky type, you should watch Macabre Storytelling for example. What baffles me a bit, is that your final point is not a bad one for a meta understanding of the game, I kind of like it. But it comes after 35 min of poor rebuttal of bad arguments...why do that? I think I would have enjoyed the video way more if you focused on that metaphor/parallel part and expended that idea for like 30 minutes and just dropped the response to 4yo comments made mostly by bigots (we need to stop giving credits to homophobes, mysogynists and transphobes by treating their arguments as worthy of an anwser). And just to answer to the question of the flashback being a metaphor for letting Abby go (or the other way around)...the issue is not here, and I think you also are missing the forest for the tree. I am a hundred percent certain that any player with a lick of media literacy is not blind to that juxtaposition. The issue is not that this is more than "Oh Joel wouldn't want me to avenge his death". The issue is that the game didn't earn that moment, emotionally or narratively, and just threw the flashback in at the worst possible moment to try and justify not having Ellie kill Abby. It can feel plot-devicy despite the possible meta-intention that you put forward.
I will say I wasn’t so attached to Joel like most people so the death didn’t bother me much, that being said I enjoyed the gameplay of the second game, as well as big spectacle moments. But the story is flawed. It’s structured very poorly in my opinion. For example you get to the half way point of the game and then it loses all momentum and shifts back to square one with Abby. Overall I’d give it a 6/10
Ah yes what a masterpiece! I particularly enjoyed the scene where Ellie ended two people and then her, Tommy & Jesse all failed to pick up the map which clearly outlined all the places they'd visited whilst in Seattle and identified the location of their base and left it laying on the floor next to the lifeless bodies ready for Abby to find. That's the best idea Druckmann & Gross could come up with to move the story along! Just one example of the many edgy teen's first project on a script writing course at a community college level writing littered throughout this "masterpiece". There are certainly masterful aspects of the game, the photo realistic graphics, the quality of the animations, the environmental design, the voice acting, the soundtrack etc but the narrative structure, pacing, plot holes & amateurish writing really let it down. The people who try to pretend that it's so deep and misunderstood and anyone who doesn't connect with it must lack emotional intelligence are just as bad as those who hate it simply because Abby has muscles.
You watch the video? I never claimed anyone who didn't connect with it lacked emotional intelligence or were bad people, and even said there were valid reasons not to like the game. I literally even said that the goal of the video wasn't to get you to like the game, but to get you to better understand it.
@@robynmateo Yes I watched the video. I didn't say that you personally claimed people who didn't like the game lacked emotional intelligence, I was pointing out that that is a common criticism thrown out by one side in the toxic discourse surrounding this title and it's just as annoying as the other side who only dislike it due to Abby's character design. Most people don't need help to better understand this game, in fact it's almost insultingly basic in the way it deals with it's themes and left many of us eye rolling our way through it. Apologies if my comment felt like a personal attack, it wasn't intended that way.
Very religious imagery. Ellie having a wound on her side and she’s almost a God like figure. 100% she represents Jesus Christ but in a twisted way. She’s the savior of the world.
I dont get the complain about the open world area? It was fun and what you mean by „waste of time“ the gane is only bout 24 hours long and it wasnt fast enough for you?
always down to watch another video about this game thanks for contributing to the positive community built agaisnt all the negativity. best game of all time!!
Wrong. Ellie doesn't believe Joel but theres currently nothing she can do about it other than say ok. She doubts thats true they just gave up & that all of this was for nothing. Hence y yrs later she felt the urge to investigate herself & kept poking & asking about the cure & fireflies. If she believed him she would've dropped it completely & moved on. I Another thing, i find it funny how idiots say joel dod nothing wrong 😂. Hes a stranger trying to force adopt a lil girl to replace the 1 he lost. Nowadays people call that a pedophile or creep, but with joel its sweet & loveable 😂. Nah joel (btw i do love him as a character) is weird! He did bandit evil actions when younger with tommy & never apologized to him for it, drags Ellie into being his surrogate daughter & then knows her dream & goals & selfishly takes that from her hurting her ass alot mentally as she got older & found out the truth. Joel is a dick & got what was coming to him from Abby for all that bad karma he put out there. Man made it his life goal to make enemies 😂 & hurt people that cared for him. But people to dumb to see that. He aint bad or evil but he still a dickhead & tends to have no remorse for actions in the past thus when those past actions spun the block joel knew yeah my times up & just accepted it 🤷🏿♂️.
The story is an 8.5 just wish Abby was a stronger character narrative wise that game is her own story as much as it is Ellie's and we know zilch about her or her friends. We know why Abby hates Joel but not any of her friends one of them spat on him and for what
I liked TLOU1 but would not play TLOU2 because of what they did to Joel. TLOU2 was released in a really bad time. This game is in Seattle. There were the Seattle riots. It was a time we needed heroes. It would be even more depressing to play a game where they kill off a hero. As of today, I will not play it because I've been made aware of Neil Druckmann. In the last Uncharted he wanted to kill off Nathan Drake. The staff and Amy Hennig fought against that is the reason why that did not happen.
After doing some research I realized that a more official term for "clone character" would be "foil".
Because apparently it needs to be said (again)... this video contains spoilers for Succession and Red Dead Redemption 2. There is a written 6-second spoiler warning at the beginning of the video.
Ho boy can't wait for everyone to react very normally to this one...
You feel like a creator that will get extremely popular at one point I'm sensing it.
Imagine creating and putting all your effort and time into a piece of art, and then when you finally upload it for the world to see, you start to see all the little mistakes you did.
From one artist to another, I get you brother 😔
Well I apologize given it was written before.
I had it playing in the background while I was cleaning, and wish it had been stated instead of just written.
But I get you did your part by writing it. So I apologize
I know it’s not on you, if you write it and do your part.
But a lot of people just leave videos playing in the background to listen to, while doing other things.
So maybe stating it as well, would help in the future. Just a thought
Don't worry, sorry for spoiling it for you. In the future, know that some video essayists do put spoiler/content warnings in writing rather than verbally.
Also, RDR2 is absolutely still worth playing, even if you know one aspect of its ending. The story is insane and there's way more that I didn't spoil; definitely still worth playing. For comparison, I've just started watching Game of Thrones for the first time, and despite knowing how it ends I'm still enjoying it simply because it's a great show (well, at the beginning. Supposedly goes downhill later on but I'm prepared for that lol).
Time to watch an hour long youtube video essay by a barely known youtuber that will more likely than not change my view on life. Cheers mate
And he ruined a fucking game ending on the main character
He will never be a big UA-camr
Pissed this even popped up in my suggestions and I clicked it
@@rachelcamden9346 Saying all that because you're a pissy person and he made a video you didn't like.
You do learn about Lev's mom, all the way back during the building descent before the hospital
They get out of the building, take off their masks, and Lev tells Abby about his family and how he and his sister take care of their mom and how it's their duty
It would’ve been nice to get a specific memory from Lev, but that’s just me being nitpicky
Sure but it's still just one very short conversation. I'm hoping in the show we actually get to see her to make that scene of Lev going to back to the island hit harder
Marlene's thought process was explained in the voice logs in TLOU 1. I don't understand what doesn't make sense there. It even comes up in the DLC. She had to be tough as the leader.
Yeah I think he got that wrong in the video , Marlene dosent suddenly have a character ark walking down the hallway , she believes making the vaccine is the right thing to do , her being forceful with joel is also trying to convince herself of her own words and actions , that scene in part 2 never struck me as odd at all .
Exactly, I was going to say this...
I think he got it wrong
Jesse is just a ride or die, it’s not about him being Dina’s ex, even he explains that he doesn’t care if Ellie kissed Dina or if they’re together. Idk saying that his whole character is “Patrols and Dina’s ex” feels kinda lazy? If you can’t connect with a character that’s okay but it just feels like that disconnect just prevents you from even looking deeper into him. Like why does Jesse show up? Because he’s been friends with Ellie with years, he went on patrols with Joel and Ellie numerous times over these years so obviously he cares about both of them. But Jesse being there shows how far Ellie is going, he’s someone who’s there and can see that she’s going too far. He’s trying to tell her that their priority should be getting everyone home safe and that they bit off way more than they can chew by being caught in a war between two factions that have been killing each other for years, to the point that neither of them care if who they’re shooting at is even the enemy. Jesse traveled all that way to help, but he’s a leader, and he’s been doing that stuff for long enough to know when to push and when to back off. And no matter what the mission is not more important than his friends that he’s trying to protect. It also added tension for Ellie to see how she feels more with Dina being pregnant and the father of that baby showing up.
Also about the Seattle day 1 map section, it’s more of a tutorial and a way to ease in new players. That’s why it’s not that fun on repeat playthroughs. Even that town section in the first game for repeat playthroughs turns into speedrunning into every place and grabbing what you can then leaving. And it’s the same way for the Seattle section, if you know what you’re doing it’s really easy to stock up on materials and take out the limited amount of infected without using much of the materials. I think as an opening segment it’s amazing for new players, it’s an hour of character and relationship building for Dina and Ellie. But on repeat playthroughs you already know the dialogue and cutscenes that it doesn’t matter so it just feels slow and pointless. I think it’s important to step back and look at some of these things from outside the pov of you as someone who’s played the game already and probably more than a couple times, but instead look at it through a first playthrough pov and a new player.
I feel the semi open seattle section in day 1 also serves as a break after how intense and emotional Joel’s death was so you can get about an hour and a half to rest until you get back into the action.
@@Lifetime10154 yeah also that for sure, there’s a lot of emotions still when you first get there
always funny when people draw the “arthur morgan death” comparison when complaining about joel’s death. like, play read dead one, my friend. johnny marathon does NOT get that picture perfect, gentle death either lmao
"Johnny marathon" lmao
John’s death was pretty badass on the surface level. Him and Arthur go down swinging - that’s why nobody complained. Realistically though, the whole point of those games was that John and Arthur died in vain, as Abigail still dies out of grief and the son Jack still becomes an outlaw. It’s way more nuanced than “strong man die strongly” lol
I will fight to the death defending this game and it's critical place in media
TLOU 1 and 2 are more than just a masterpiece. I don't understand how people can hate one of the best Story Games out there.
The stort is not vert good, thats why
@@toastmalone1853omg you’re so right!!!
Everything in this story is forced, from motivations and story events, to attempts to make you like characters that with a sober mind and taste you wouldn't give a damn about usually.
TLOU2 is perfection
@@toastmalone1853why? Be specific and make it good.
And do it without being political.
Lost me at "don't like jesse" 😒
Dude he's the sweetest. Trying to respect Dina while she's being reckless with his child in her belly. While still being a ride or die for ellie up until he finds out there's a baby on the line. Then he pushes back against ellie, prioritizing revenge over the well-being/health of Dina(tommy too kinda).
When abby shot him, I was done. She can't be forgiven.
Foreal he’s one of my favs in the game. I did not want him to go. And when it happened I was more invested.
I feel like I was the only person that enjoyed playing as abby more than Ellie. She had greater set pieces throughout the story, and it was interesting to learn her background. People wanted another daddy daughter road trip game with joel and ellie but what wouldve been the point? Naughty dog wanted to tell a totally different story and I loved that.
Same here. I have about 10 play thru and I like Abby’s play/story the more I play.
I dont get you....I mean yeah Ellie was an asshole but with her we at least saw guilt she is going trough....for gods sake she almost threw up when she found out Mel was pregnant...with Abby we NEVER saw that.... she said "good" when Ellie told her Dina is pregnant... my boyfriend called Abby "this big pig" :D and it doesnt make sense that she is soo muscular....seriously how if food is very limited in this world...or did she took steroids? well where did she get those? My boyfriend practices jiu jitsu and he had very hard time believing that Abby could get soo puffed without proper food , training alone isnt enough
Took me three playthroughs to come to the same conclusion. @berleezy clicks on to it quick in his first or second video playing Abby when he exclaims with absolute surprise and shock.. "Abby, kinda coooool, though!!?"
I’m playing through for the first time. Saw all the hate when it started. Yes the story is flawed. No Abby is not a badly written character. And yeah I enjoy hey sections a lot too.
@@HK-gm8pethat’s the thing, Abby may not FEEL guilty, but she sure as hell has consequences for her actions (losing everyone except Lev) then, the Dina point, first of all, she was avenging Mel, and if you don’t agree with her doing that, then you shouldn’t be ok with Ellie killing all of those WLF soldiers (sure they attacked her first but she could’ve easily turned away as soon as she found out Dina was pregnant)
The dissonance in the Abby/Ellie fight was intentional. You're supposed to not want to kill Ellie then you're supposed to realize you have to seeing as she's the boss in the videogame. It's supposed to conflict the player imo.
No shit it’s intentional. Who knew people wouldn’t like being forced to hurt/kill your favorite characters? Just because it’s intentional doesn’t mean it’s good. Look at how many players purposefully let Ellie kill Abby when they start the fight for the first time. It’s an extremely frustrating position to put your fanbase in
@ArgentPendragon tough luck. That's how art works. You aren't guaranteed to like it. Honestly if you were still on the same page as Ellie at that point you were trying not to understand the story. She obviously loses herself as Abby almost loses herself before lev talks her down after that fight.
@@ArgentPendragon Ellie and Joel are prob tied for being my favourite characters of all time. Have been for a decade, now. I've dedicated HUNDREDS OF HOURS of my life to drawing fanart featuring them lol.
Even with all this... When I was in that theatre, as much as I didn't want to hurt Ellie, I did what the game asked of me. I felt that INTENSE cocktail of feelings that moment wants to evoke in the player, and I went ahead and did as expected. When I thought that Abby had strangled Ellie, that I might've strangled Ellie to death, my heart actually skipped a beat or two. I still did exactly what the game wanted.
Because that's what the game is. It is a linear story that I am supposed to go through and experience.
At the end, I didn't want to kill Abby. I've heard of many people letting Ellie die in the hopes that there's a secret ending or not doing the fight cuz they didn't want Ellie to do that. I didn't do any of that. I beat Abby up without a second thought, despite all of my complex feelings (not wanting her to die, wanting Lev to have someone, wanting Ellie to return to her home and abandon this suicidal revenge mission etc)... I beat the snot out of Abby lol. Cuz THAT is what the game is.
And me resisting against that (like how some folks do by throwing Abby off a building, letting Ellie kill Abby in the theatre, letting Abby kill Ellie at the beach) would be fruitless. I hated Abby on Day 1, and I too wondered if I should just jump off a building. But I realized that It would only unnecessarily lengthen my time with the game and frustrate me more.
It is a linear game. Only way out is through, as they say lol. And I am thankful that some studios are still out here ACTUALLY making narratively challenging games. I am so burnt out on formulaic, safe crap.
Good? It’s probably one of the best game ever made.
Don’t let the general public hear you say that
@@Doggystyledaydreamwho cares they’re all shitty anyways
yup
@@Doggystyledaydreamfr lol you'll get crucified
If love and hatred come from the same place then maybe someday the people who hated it will be able to see it in a different light. The game is comically over hated & honestly one of the most unique experiences I ever had with a story across any medium. In a weird way the fact that the game brought out such strong emotions out of the people who disagreed with it says a lot about it as an art piece..
I thought it became obvious by now TLOU 2 haters are vocal minority, 10% atmost, which is still huge. It's exactly why it felt like 50% people hated TLOU 2 in the beginning.
I just love that Naughty Dog took risks, we don’t get enough games willing to take risks anymore, studios are being forced more and more to play it safe, why? $, but the safe bet isn’t paying off anymore, we don’t get games like the last of us often.
10:10 With Marlene, there was another line right before that. As Joel was bargaining/in denial about what has to be down, Marlene says something like, "I have already been through this."
Which I understood as that she's already gone through the same bargaining/denial/accepting that Ellie has to die.
Absolutely loved both of these games.
This was an incredible video. I already loved this game but the parallels between our characters that you pointed out makes it so much better. Well done 👏🏼
I play part 1 at least every 2 years. While I agree part 2 was a monumental achievement, I have no desire to replay it. Maybe I’m soft, but that was one of the heaviest piece of media I’ve ever experienced. It legitimately put me in a dark head space for a few days after the credits rolled.
When there's spoilers for TLOU2, Succession and Red Dead Redemption 2, you know it's going to be good.
Lev does mention his mom? Right before Abby goes to the WLF hospital he talks about how he's worried profusely about his mom. And that he wishes he just ran away, so she was never caught up in this. Also saying "She's our mom" when Abby asks if she NEEDS to be taken care of, implying a deep bond between them to the point where it isn't if she NEEDS it Lev believes she deserves it no matter what.
8:56 not trying to diminish your point but I just recently finished replaying part 1 and there are audio tapes with Marlene showing how conflicted she is in allowing ellie to be killed for a vaccine. She's conflicted between her goal as a firefly vs her goal as ellies godmother.
You see in part 2 that Abby's dad isn't exactly sure it would work and doesn't care that it kills Ellie no matter whether he can find a cure or not. You see Marlene isn't thrilled with him and I think she can see he's a little full of himself.
My first thoughts were:
1.) He made sure Ellie stayed unconscious from the moment they recovered her and Joel. Didn't even try to give her a say in the process.
2.) If he managed to make a vaccine, could they manufacture it on a massive scale? Their point was to try to bring the world back to how it was before. Look at how much resources they had to dig up just to be able to perform the procedure on Ellie. I doubt they have the resources to manufacture a vaccine on a massive scale I less it's something that could be easily created.
He also made sure Joel didn't know what was going on and got annoyed when Marlene wanted to tell him. He knew that if he talked directly with Ellie and Joel, they likely would have asked the questions he didn't want asked.
@@davidb.6681Abby’s dad is 100% sure he can create the cure which is why he thinks sacrificing Ellie is worth it, he wishes he could create the cure without her dying but it’s not possible to.
I also get the feeling when Marlene says those things to Joel in the first game it's also her trying to convince herself that it's the right choice, not just Joel.
@@ZaZaa-g9z Nope.
When Marlene is talking to him in he office you can clearly see that's he's not sure it will work. That's the entire point he doesn't want Ellie or Joel involved in the decision. Questions would be asked that he didn't want asked. Marlene herself was starting too ask those questions and it clearly annoyed him that she was asking about specific things.
He would have no way of knowing if he could do it unless he does the procedure and gets the part of it out of her brain. He would have to get it out and figure out WHY it makes her immune. X-rays and blood work alone can't tell a person that information in this type of case. He needs the actual piece in her brain. Especially when it's never happened before. Keep in kind its an incurable condition that exists in nature and didn't affect humans. Then it suddenly did. Meaning it mutated and wouldn't work the same way it did in insects. Anything they knew about how not works in insects, wouldn't work the same way now.
You completely ignored what else I pointed out. If he did find a cure, how would they have made it on a massive SAVE THE WORLD (the mission of the fireflies) scale when it took them an entire year just to gather what he needed to be able to perform what would actually be a simple procedure to remove it from her brain. Keep in mind that it was going to kill her no matter what so its not something he had to do and make sure she lived. He needed very specific equipment just to remove it and it took them a year to get it all.
Unless a cure ended up being something surprisingly simple, they don't have the resources to manufacture a vaccine on a scale large enough to fix the world.
Plain and simple FACT
Try paying closer attention next time you play it ;)
@@davidb.6681 Jerry had been studying how the cordyceps works in other infected people for 20 years at this point, he already knew how it works even with the mutation, and he knew for sure it would work with Ellie, hence why he thought her sacrifice was worth it.
I don’t need to pay better attention, child :)
I'm just wondering how all the people who's brain melted with rage over TLOU2 view other evocative and though-provoking pieces of art and media. Must be pretty simplistic, boring, surface level type of thinking.
Why are TLOU2 fans like this? Unironically saying "if you don't like the story, or even hated it, you must be simplistic, boring, and have a surface level type of thinking?"
You guys are the most snobby bunch of "fans" I've ever seen for a game like this, and I hate the sequel even more knowing you guys are attempting to rub shoulders with actual The Last of Us fans. If I ever made a story that attracted people like you, I'd apologize.
Couldn't have said it better. Thank you.@@luckyducky7819
I think people’s main issues with the last of us at least my main issue with it is the sudden switch to protagonists at what’s practically the climax of the story, playing a technically meaningless story for eight hours just to see the climax, then being hit with a SECOND climax, and also the tonal whiplash from the first game to the second one.
The first game was dark but had very strong themes of love and family, and the seconds is about the cycle of violence and toxic codependency which is just such a what the f from the first game.
Joel had to die to progress the story, and I will die on the hill that the last of us 2 has a beautiful story. But there were some crucial storytelling rules broken, and it ended up harming the pacing and feeling of the game.
Well structurally the theater fight would be the end of act 2 and the actual climax would be the fight at Santa Barbara. I get the pacing issues and I even complained about it in the video, but I wouldn't consider that moment the climax.
The VO for Joel said that he was very hesistent about a sequel until he actually read the script and said it's exactly what that sequel needed to be. He said he always asks fans what they would do for Part II that's so much better, and he's never heard anything that captures what they accomplished in the second game. The one thing I think the first game does consistently better is the pacing, but everything else imo is an improvement over the original. Also the open world level was a remnant of the original design of the game, which was to give you full access to Seattle. Honestly I would enjoy if TLOU III did something inspired by FromSoftware, with either a hub system or a central area with interconnected paths. So you can feel a large world but you're limited in each area.
Great video! I agree with lots of what you said and disagree with some of it. The reason why I love the open world section so much is that it feels realistic. A lesser game would have you find the WLFs immediately while this game takes its time to get there. It feels like the calm before the storm. And it allows you to sit with the feeling of losing Joel, that sadness, that anger. I love it but I can see where you’re coming from. Also I love how loyal Jesse is. Dina is there for emotional support while Jesse functions as Ellie’s conscience. That way, we can see just how far Ellie has fallen. But to each their own! And I love how Marlene is written here as it shows a different side. Throughout this game, we see how Ellie is perceived by different people, how Abby is perceived by different people, and our view of both of those characters come from us seeing both sides of these characters. The good, gentle side of them and the bad, aggressive side of them. Marlene is shown in a similar way. Worrying and concerned, but she shows her cold, ruthless side to Joel. Shows more inner conflict. I dug that approach.
TLOU 2 was good like very honest and brutal. However, I wish we could have gotten more out of Ellie and Joel relationship. Other than that, masterpiece
I saw a video recently that reframes TLOU2 as a 5-act tragedy (the example they used was Romeo and Juliet) rather than a 3-act standard story. It really shifted my whole perspective.
I’ve really loved the game from day one, but I did question the length and pacing. The ‘reframe’ really opened my eyes into what they could’ve been trying to do.
This was a phenomenal analysis. Agreed with your dislikes and likes and every review of criticism. Showed you knew what you were talking about when most of the people hating don't
23:37 i think youre misunderstanding "drinkers" interpretation. Ellie isnt accepting the lie for joels sake, shes accepting the lie (only momentarily if you count TLoU2) that there is no cure so that she can be at peace and not be guilty that she's not withholding a cure from the whole world. Its still convoluted and an interpretation. Its easy to forget shes just a kid and has immense trust in joel at the end of part1. Its not a stretch to think she was able to convince herself to believe joel in this moment, or at the very least was naive enough to believe him in that moment. But the evidence that as she got older their relationship deteriorated, and that she returned to st marys hospital to prove her suspicions is pretty ample evidence for me that she just accepted joels lie for her own sanity in that moment, not for joels sanity.
I mean its pretty clear ellie knew joel lied at the end of part 1, but not that she knows what joel did
One of the best games I’ve ever played.
11:40 Lev and Abby do have a small conversation about his mom during Day 2. The subtext is that he cares a lot for her. He wanted Yara to stay with their mom to take care of her. Not because she needs it, but because Lev cares for her.
I'll say one thing, this game is perhaps the most evocative piece of media I've ever been confronted with, to the extent that I to this day have a negative emotional response just by recalling its contents. It made me upset, annoyed, bored, frustrated, and (directionlessly) angry, but none of those emotions paid off in any sort of catharsis. There are many stories that are many magnitudes darker and distressing than this game, but those, by and large, managed to make me feel some sense of meaning, some pathos through and following the pain. TLOU2 in its ceaseless, meandering misery only made me numb and I honestly kind of went crazy for a while trying to cope amd isolate the exact cause of the borderline toxic mindset it saddled me up with lol. So yea, not a positive experience, but I'll forever remember it for how compounded negative emotions to the point where they stopped registering as such, never has a game lived so rent free in my head and I still can't say with absolute certaonty whT bothered me to the extent that it did (I got so lost in the sauce of scrutiny that I can't actually recall what put me off originally, totally normal non-obsessive behaviour, I know); I could point to a thousand cons, but it feels like none on its own would be egregious enough to justify my fundamental emotional rejection of this piece. If I had to isolate anything it'd be that it feels borderline didactic in its thematic messaging to the point where it feels like the writers are puppeteering and torturing the character you loved in whatever way required (sense of their actions be damned) to convey the most shallow of morals with the subtlety of a suckerpunch. But it wasn't just one suckerpunch, it was like you were voluntarily playing through your own beatdown.
Will watch your vid in its entirety after some sleep and try to more reasonably ruminate on your ideas lol (also Succession bussin and can quite effectively be contrasted to TLOU2 in its rejection of traditional/predictable character development)
Sometimes in life, we don’t get closure.
This exactly! After everything we go through, we get the ending of "violence bad" which is like who knew. And it's not just "violence bad", its violence bad being spoon fed to you through out the 25 hour game.
@@jaanaenkerro445
Edit: this word-vomit is what a boring two-hour train trip does to a mfer
one other aspect that I in hindsight think is probably what made the game not work for me (besides the POV switch which ultimately obliterated any sense of rising tension), itself a product of the clumsy and heavy handed thematic framing, is the fact that almost none of the characters managed to be effectively sympathetic enough for me to dread or care about the predictably terrible fates they were working towards (Abby is actually the most humanly, or relatably, written character, her flaws, conflict, and priorities are defined and continuous throughout, with one decision derailing that consistency in regards to her priorities (keeping Lev safe), but nevermind). Regarding the side-characters, when you respond to the death of a person you've spent _hours_ connecting by rolling your eyes rather than feeling any emotion beyond exasperation, I think something went wrong. I prefer stories where the characters in them manage to convey something in relation to themselves as people during the time they're on screen, but so many TLOU2 character own their place in the plot only to act out the shock-value throw-away death they were seemingly created for (Jesse, Bald Girl, literally all of Abby's friends, Isaac (ostensibly), Tommy (though he gets resurrected as Evil Tommy, so all good), h ell, Even Joel's death was designed to put the plot in motion lol, i.e. inciting incident so that's acceptable despite clumsy execution). You might say that said characters' existences are valuable in that they managed to make the plot progress as it did, but it is exactly their existances being in service to the plot that makes them feel less like humans that died, but rather like devices that got decomissioned after exceeding their use (of course every story needs underdeveloped side-character, but these were given undue screentime to be considered as such imo). This apparent emphasis in the writers' approach to character handling is of course also what led to just so many baffling and incomprehensible instances of decision-making and behaviour that made it very difficult to feel like you were watching empathetic humans acting accordingly, which, unfortunately, finds its most horrific embodiment in our main characters' final confrontation (though it is equally marred by an ineptitude I'll try to dissect later).
Anyway, the 'climax', try to follow along; ah yes, the woman who I've killed innumerable people in the hopes of murdering with whom my only interaction following the events that made me want to kill her at all involved her shooting my uncle in the head (blinding him), killing my close and innocent friend, giving my pregnant GF a quadruple concussion, and relishing the idea of consciously killing an unborn baby along with her before, on a whim, deciding that it'd be somehow sensible to give a second chance to the person responsible for killing literally _all_ of her (Abby's) close compatriots in revenge for killing one person (Joel) after just killing having killed two more (Jesse + Tommy, whk was as good as dead before his return as Evil Tommy); (back to Ellie) ah yes, let me, having come here for the sole purpose of killing her, cut her down from her death sentence and for some reason follow her into some shallow waters so we can have a cinematic knife fight to the death that'd ultimately kill whoever won either way, only for me to on an even less substantiated whim decide to spare her as well. Okay, that was the worst run-on sentence possibly ever devised and, more importantly, I don't enjoy this excercise or rationalising human behaviour, because ultimately it is sentiment that rules us, but sentiment as it is reasonably known to materialise in relation to real-world events, seems to be utterly absent in the badly (but fairly, I think) described above events. One would, however, not be unjustified in maintaining that Abby, in her search for redemption by helping Lev managed to develop an understanding of cyclical revenge or retaliation and an understanding of what it takes to end such cycles because her story dragged her through a conflict (that was not much concerned in depicting such a cycle, to be fair, the Scars were purposefully dehumanised to a comical extent), allowing her by some inconceivable magnitude of magnanimity to choose to be that end of the cycle (though she could just as well have ended it by killing everyone there that could choose in turn to perpetuate that cycle as she had no reason to believe they would not do if left alone). In the same vein, one could also maintain that Ellie somehow had remorse for the person she has comitted countless atrocities in search of killing because that very person spared her when she had just as much cause to do what she wants to be able to do in that later moment. The problem is that this to me utterly stretches credulity and there nowhere near enough meat on this headcannon of a bone for my emotional core to bite at. These characters have had essentially no interactions so it's basically unfeasible to gauge their dynamic or even guess at their exact opinions of one another (conjecture about their emotions doesn't carry much weight, so all I have to go on are the circumstances of their individual actions whose implications are too ridiculous to swallow).
Also of note besides characters acting in ways antithetical to what common sense and bornal human behaviour would dictate, is the fact that the writers for some reason seemed to want to make Ellie not come across as the truly despicable person that she was throughout her odyssey of atrocity, mainly by making her to some extent not wholly responsible for every one of her cinematic murders (as well as through the flashbacks whose handling ends up genuinely frying my brain), though with Nora's Ellie was the aggressor, they made her as good as dead. However, despite such attempts, the player spent hours on hours comitting exactly those mindless murders that the writers sought to write around, and, as a result, Ellie suddenly growing a never before seen conscience when faced with killing the person she has the most reason to want to kill out of all the people she didn't hesitate to, comes out of absolutely nowhere, like the last 30 hours you spent with her were not spent with her at all, or that she has MPD. I genuinely still don't know why they bothered making those kill scenes so unbelievably silly for what it was worth, unless they just couldn't rule out a sequel where Ellie and Abby become allies or some shit. Of course the first guy is vaguely roughing up Dina, so Ellie can swoop in, of course Vita Girl draws a knife with another knife to her literal throat (yeah, that was dumb, Ellie), of course Nora would rather suffer through repeated pipe to brain injuries, forcing Ellie's hand, rather than idk, lying??, of course preggo lady is wearing a thicc-ass coat, of course Owen, the baby's father, doesn't say she's pregnant to protect her, of course Ellie waves her gun so Owen can do something stupid like grab a gun pointing at his damn wife, of course the pregnant lady pulls a knife on Ellie, pf course Ellie doesn't think not to kill them both despite needing them to find Abby (not relevant: of course she leaves a map to their _exact_ location 🤦♂️).
That aside lol, to me the epitomy of ineptitude emblematic to the writers' failure to commit to an approach for framing Ellie's morality (even within their own cut-scenes irrespective of the murderous gameplay, no appeal to leudonarrative dissonance to be made lol) comes with the game's reveal within the convenient flashback that it seems like the writers wanted us to think motivated her retraint (somehow), which revealed that her decision to set off on her pursuit of violence, death, and degradation was not (as the game had misled you into believing) in large part motivated by her desperate desire to quell the unbearble guilt of her final words to Joel being ones that conveyed the exact oposite of how she felt about him (an aspect of the story that went very far to sell and reasonably justify the lengths Ellie went in search of remedying her despair). Instead, it seems that she actually had a nice final chat that makes her entire murderous escapade read as suddenly unsubstantiated, making you think, okay so she's just much more of ruthless murderer than I thought, but no, actually she saves Abby in _spite_ of killing hundreds in response to her emotional recollection, so she's actually learnt to be compassionate and good?? Well no, this is a flashback, meaning that either she responded to it in the way the writers make it seem; that she only in that _final_ moment realised her heart hadn't actually been in it when she'd been killing without hesitation, 'lemme put the brakes on this escapade now before it gets out of hand', making her an utterly unpredictable psycho, or the flashback is just to make the player think there's something more going on than there is, meaning she still commited those atrocities only to just now change her mind without even so much as a flashback to prompt her, making her perhaps even more psychotic than the first iteration, idk honestly. In this convoluted equation that sprung to life via the insertion of a mere flashback it becomes impossible to have any founded idea as to who she even is anymore or what she might do, instead she almost devolves into an incomprehensible force of chaotic unpredicability that I can have no feelings in relation to and cannot fathom to be an understandable character called Ellie.
@@jaanaenkerro445 I genuinely think that if the story was to go any way leading up to the ending, then it'd have been much more impactful (let alone believable and comprehensible) to have Ellie kill Abby in the hopes that it'd disolve her despair, that it'd make the trauma she put herself through somehow worth it, and make her abhorrent behaviour towards Dina in some way justified, only for her to sit in silence next to the corpse of a character that the game managed to make you empathise with whilst she looks at the unconscious body of a child whom she deprived of her only caregiver, finding no solace in this horror she perpetrated. That'd would've decisively sold a message at the very least (rather than trying to dip one finger into two buckets; making the entire thing non-sensical), it would have used the unrelenting horror you had to endure to at least some meaningful extent rather than just dismissing it as borderline filler. Hell, they could've cut the story with her contemplating whether or not to kill Lev, putting her full circle into the position Abby was in when she decided to spare her after killing Joel, or they could still do a sequel where she in some way retraces Joel's experience in coming to terms with her atrocities or seeking to rekindle meaningful connections, idk. If there's one message this story _did_ manage to send home, it's that when you pursue revenge, make sure to finish the job, and unless that wasn't their intention, I'd say good job. Fanfics aside, I would've preferred a lot of things better than Ellie losing her fingers to _literally_ symbolise her loss of a valuable connection to Joel as a direct result of seeking revenge by having her pretend she can never play guitar again (she can, just need to rewire the strings) to then leave her surrogate father's beloved possession to succumb to weather damage so she can dramatically walk of screen...
If there is anyone who bothers to read this for that identified some aspect of the story that I might be repressing or talking around or am too tunnelvisioned to see, please do let me know. Why did i spend an hour writing this? 💀
It wasnt until I finished Ellie part Day 1 is my favorite. At first I thought it was weird for it to be so slow but Essentially that Level is literally Ellie's and Dina first date and then they essentially shock the players by the end of that day.
One part of the ending I really didn't like was Ellie losing 2 of her fingers so she cant play guitar properly anymore
I went back to TLOU2 recently and it's not as bad as I thought it was the first time, but it's still got issues that stop it from being on the same level as the first game. I like Abby, but the way they did her story and some of her dialogue makes it harder to feel sympathy for her. The game should've been a mix of Abby's story and Ellie discovering what Joel did to the Fireflies at the start, then move into Abby killing Joel and Ellie hunting her down, and then either just cut the entire last section with the Rattlers or make it so Ellie and Abby are forced to work together there instead of forcing that pathetic fight. How are you gonna make us play as Abby to feel sympathy for her, then have her eager and glad to kill a pregnant woman? At least Ellie didn't know Mel was pregnant and was obviously traumatized when she discovered what she did, Abby was happy the woman she was about to kill was pregnant. Also, that fight in the theater you should've played Ellie not Abby. Not only would that be what most people want, but it would help their attempt at making her sympathetic more. You start to doubt Ellie's tactics and what she's doing then you go to see Abby as more than just a heartless monster, then you have to fight her, and most would be conflicted at that.
Moving on, Jesse, Dina and Tommy deserved better. I know Tommy would be broken from Joel's death, but there's no way the Tommy we've come to know would guilt trip Ellie for not wanting revenge, and why did it take so long to show him in Seattle? He should've joined them way sooner so we could see him more. Same for Jesse and Dina, they both come to Seattle to help Ellie, but either do a different task or get too sick to continue on. Let us see these new characters more so we can like and get attached to them. I already loved Jesse from the beginning, but you can't introduce a new character, have him gone for a while, reintroduce him to the story, make it go away again, then just kill him. I love Dina and Ellie as characters, but I personally can't see them together because we didn't get enough. We just hear about them kissing suddenly, then they go off and get high then get it on. Seattle was the perfect time to build their relationship, but instead they just took Dina out of the story to make a parallel between Dina and Mel.
You bring up some interesting points, and yeah even in the video I agreed that the theater fight should've been played from Ellie's perspective. As for Tommy, I think the reason he guilt tripped Ellie to not wanting revenge was because he was secretly planning on leaving and didn't want Ellie coming with her. It's why he later encourages Ellie to get revenge in the third act of the game, since at that point he physically is unable to.
Also, yes, I do wish we could've seen more much more Dina and Jesse. It's too bad they probably won't be in Part 3.
@@robynmateo I see that reasoning for Tommy, I think if it was set up a little better it would've worked, I think it could've been cool if we run into Tommy as he kills those 2 guys in the hotel he tortured for information. Could've been a dark moment for the players and Ellie and Dina. An interesting idea I'm shocked didn't happen since the game did so well is a DLC of Tommy's 3 days in Seattle, Tommy has always been one of my favorite characters so him not really being in both games really sucks. Maybe part 3 could have him some more but considering the state he's in at the end of part 2 I don't see it happening.
It's too bad DLC isn't quite as common for games as they used to be (at least it seems that way for me, I don't play as many games as I used to) because TLOU2 DLC as Tommy would be kinda amazing ngl
@@robynmateo Feels like these days DLC is used to finish an unfinished game instead of adding onto a finished game.
Well the only reason she was “eager” to kill Dina is bc she thought Ellie had killed Mel knowing she was pregnant. In that moment she was feeling the same rage Ellie felt at her for killing Joel. We as the player know that Ellie didn’t know Mel was pregnant, but Abby thinks she did. And the whole reason she went after Ellie at the theater was for revenge because of Owen and Mel. And imo, the reason she lets them go is not only Levs little interruption, but bc she knows it won’t do anything for her. It won’t bring her friends back, it won’t make her feel better, it’s just more death. And she knows this now because throughout the game we see that even after she killed Joel, she still wasn’t satisfied, she still had nightmares about her dad plaguing her. She realised that killing him for her and caused more pain to others. So to me it made all the sense that she would want to kill Dina even after learning she was pregnant.
Gotta point out that there’s a whole convo about Lev and his mom once you get out of the elevator building before Abby gets caught by Scars on the way to get medicine for Yara
I disagree with a few of your criticisms for personal reasons, but there's also a few like the one about Marlene that I believe you really missed the mark on. In The Last of Us (all versions) the two following recorders for Marlene explain her mindset in Part I and Part II:
Marlene's recorder 1: "it's 5:30PM on... April 28th. I just finished speaking... More like yelling at our head surgeon. Apparently there's no way to extricate the parasite without eliminating the host. Fancy way of saying we gotta kill the fucking kid. And now they're asking for my go ahead. The tests just keep getting harder and harder, don't they? I'm so tired. I'm exhausted and I just want this to end... So be it."
Marlene's recorder 2: "Hey Anna... It's been awhile since we spoke. I uh... I just gave the go ahead to proceed with the surgery. I really doubt I had much of a choice, asking me was more of a formality. I need you to know that I've kept my promise all these years... despite everything that I was in charge of, I looked after her. I would've done anything for her, and at times...
Here's a chance to save us... all of us. This is what we were after... what you were after. They (Marlene's Boston crew) asked me to kill the smuggler. I'm not about to kill the one man in this facility that might understand the weight of this choice. Maybe he can forgive me. Oh, I miss you, Anna. Your daughter will be with you soon."
As for Lev leaving for Haven; while it could've been setup more, it's important for Abby and Lev's development because Lev's parental figure died and Abby seemingly takes on that guardian role after that for Lev, Abby bonds with Lev because it makes her think of her trauma and past. Prior to this she even implies that she believes that she's not doing this for solely selfish reasons like she did in the past to Yara. It also further comments on perspective and dehumanizing the enemy even if you find out it's Tommy quickly in Day 3. (I will criticize the fact that they kind of handwave a reason for them not going back for the boat though)
The point of fighting Ellie as Abby is the cognitive dissonance, you're seeing Ellie through Abby's perspective, and I think it's supposed to make you feel a bit unsettled, and it further pushes the idea of not seeing Ellie nor Abby as heroes or villains, but pure survivors. You might very well be willing to let Abby die, but it works for you, if you feel a shred of care for Abby, yet really don't want to kill Ellie and are conflicted then I would argue that it did its job.
I don’t want to come off just fanboying for this game, I actually think I have more issues than you do plot-wise and even thematically regarding the Rattler's section, but for me this wasn't it.
54:40 The zebra’s not a cat. Sorry for the self plug, this was a good video!
ua-cam.com/video/Kqv-SxperHo/v-deo.html
Just subscribed. I really enjoy your critical breakdowns on media texts. I've just flicked through some other of your videos too and they're well produced. I hate the UA-cam algorithm and how it hasn't grabbed your content yet. Love from the UK xx
GREAT freaking video. Definitely had a few "damn I didn't think about that" moments. I always loved both even though they killed Joel. I didn't fully understand the negative criticism the 2nd game got.
I will never understand those who say the story is bad in The Last of Us Part 2.
It's not only about revenge is bad. It's about how obsession and hatred can turn even the best people we know and love into people we will not recognize.
It's about being able to have respectful conversations about our differences and actually become interested in what we view in life and why we are so different from each other.
The cut from Ellie's storyline into Abby's is done on purpose by Naughty Dog. First they fill you up with all this hate and you feel the same hate as Ellie after Joel's death and all you want to do is to play the game so you can have your brutal revenge on Abby.
Then they do the cut into Abby's part to make you even more mad for playing as Abby. Because all you wanna do is to have your revenge. They basically did that on purpose making you want to put your controller down and not play the game. But if you push through and give her part a chance you will understand that a coin has two sides.
I've never had a video game made such a huge impact on me and thats why I think it's one of the best video games ever made.
PS. Great video. My favorite part is here 1:02:26 so good!
Its a story about Tramua and self hate. Ellie cant forgive herself for wasting all this time being rightfully pissed of at Joel. Then Abby has nothing going for her who is she, why are her and her friends so stupid to let Ellie go. Abby just tortured joel in front of ellie and still decides to let her go and not expecf Ellie to come after her. They do nothing useful with Abby. You cant give a redemption arc to someone you know nothing about or if they even deserve one
I think it might actually be the pacing that turned folks off and then there was no redeeming it. The plot line could have benefitted from a game or solid DLC in between TLoU and TLoU2. A good story told poorly will only resonate with some. A lot of what people were complaining about plot-wise would have been resolved with a better narrative set up.
TLOU2 is, factually, a rejected pitch for the first game lazily recycled to be the sequel. Neil Druckmann treated TLOU2 not as a sequel to the story, but a do-over to tell the story he originally wanted to tell, but with Abby instead of Joel and Ellie instead of Tess.
He did this because he's a failed comic author and knew Abby can not carry a story on her own, so he needs to try and hijack a franchise to try and push her, because people can associate a good franchise with a bad story to prop up that bad story.
If it weren't for the name alone, you'd be treating it like the author's other failed work and pointing out how Abby's obsession led to her having friends who'd die for her just to stall someone hunting her, living in luxury where she can bulk out and go to the gym and casually SA people under the influence of alcohol and still be treated as a hero, so her obsession seemed to work out just fine until Ellie entered the plot.
I think the problem with Marlenes inconsistency is a valid complaint to have but I also think it makes a lot more sense when you take into account who she's speaking to in both of those scenes. The way I see it, she is someone whos pretty much down the middle. She sees both sides of this dilemma and she's just upset that she even has to be the one to make the call at all. In the scene with jerry she's talking to someone whos very much on the side of "get the vaccine no matter what it takes" so in my mind it makes sense that she would play to the other side of that argument. Then in the scene with Joel She's clearly trying to convince him that its about the greater good but she's also trying to convince herself. I also think there's a little side of her that feels like she needs to intimidate Joel so he doesn't try to make any rash decisions. I'm sure in Marlenes mind she was just hoping Joel wouldn't wake up until after the surgery was done so that she didn't have to deal with this Joel but rather just a grieving Joel.
I think a couple of reasons they have you play as Abby during the fight with Ellie is 1) to show that Abby can beat Ellie even with the major disadvantage of having no gear (it makes more sense to have the player play the character that wins that fight, imo) and 2) to show how scary Ellie is as an opponent. I actually LOVED playing this fight against Ellie because she was so lethal and terrifying, it was cool to see it from the other side.
I'm a certified Critical Drinker hater, but I semi agree with his take about the ending of Part I. I don't think Ellie knows the trurth, but she clearly suspects something, otherwise she wouldn't have made Joel swear. The fact she is suspicious of Joel is confirmed in Part II when she keeps asking him about it and eventually goes out to see it for herself. I think she is willing to believe Joel at the end of Part I because at that point he is all she has and her biggest fear is being alone, but as time passes and she starts forming meaningful relationships with other people and distancing from Joel she becomes more willing to question him.
Anyway, great video!
agree! Also it is absolutely weird the story of "oh yeah they drugged you and set you to operate, but then they were like nah, and gave me this car to just leave without even you waking up, seeing marlene, etc." And the "sad eyes bc of Riley isn't it either. It is a sad moment in general, yeah, but it is totally a look, a movement on her eyes while she's debating what's next before saying "ok"
Eh, with everything has happened since then my view of the game has changed. It's like a youtuber named Bricky said about it "A bunch of good apples being spoiled by those 4-5 bad apples" it's not the worst game by far, but it's still not the greatest.
The only thing I have to say about Abby and her physique isn’t even a criticism, but I just wonder how she’s able to maintain the amount of muscle she does while she’s in Santa Barbara long after she left the WLF.
I’m definitely not a gym head or anything like that, but I live on a farm and I’m constantly lifting and moving around, causing me to have a muscular body. My sisters and some of my cousins also live the farm life, and they are in really good shape as well. But they don’t look like Abby. Their arms are muscular, but not big like hers.
No doubt a lot of walking and fighting infected is definitely going to keep her in shape, but since she’s not living at the stadium anymore and doesn’t have access to the gym and regular food, I figured she’d would just lose some muscle mass and be more slim. But idk, maybe I’m looking too much into it
If you believe the in-canon explanation, the reason she's more bulky than even the RPG-type big-slow melee-wielding enemies is because she just works out that hard.
The *actual* explanation is that Neil Druckmann interfered with the character design. See, he (a straight hetero cis male, all relevant as you'll see) wanted Abby to be "trans friendly" so he compiled a few different women kitbashed together digitally, then had the designers go *off model* to bulk up her arms and tone down feminine characteristics. No trans person was consulted on this, this is just what Neil thinks trans people would identify with.
If you want to see why this is bad, take one look at Lev, who was designed *with input* from a trans person, and actually looks like a human. It's like Laurence Olivier playing Othello opposite James Earl Jones, but in an age where they should know better.
Same thing kinda happened with Uncharted 4, though not as egregious, where Neil had Laura Bailey play a woman of color, so it's certainly a pattern of his to have Bailey "represent" a minority group, without actually gauging if that minority group wants that representation or if they identify with that.
But Abby's not trans
@@crazyinsane500 No one said Abby was trans, tho. She’s just buff. And if you ain’t know, there are some really muscular woman out there in the world. People call them “Mommies”
@@Xaixiu Correct, Abby is not trans.
She was designed to be "trans friendly." A term Neil Druckmann used to mean trans coded . . . Through *his* interpretation of what a trans coded character is like.
Hence the Laurence Olivier vs James Earl Jones comparison between Abby vs Lev made in my comment.
I'm not sure how she was designed to be "trans friendly". Seems more like she was designed to be muscular. You don't need to consult trans people to design a cis character.
this is the best tlou video essay I've seen, this perfectly rebuts the no faith criticisms that I hate
I loved part 2 just as much if not more then part 1, both games are masterpieces as far as I’m concerned
I find it ironic everyone felt the same rage Ellie did when Joel died but like Tommy they couldn’t let it go so much it destroyed the game for them… can’t say they didn’t pull at the heart strings. I’d say that checks the box for being on the same level of emotional impact of part 1.
I will not abide Jesse slander
I’ve grown to like it throughout the years.
Playing it 3 times on grounded made it a more intimate experience. The AI on grounded is on a whole other level. It’s a shame that as far as I know, there hasn’t been a game with enemy AI this good (Cough Star Wars outlaws)
I was very very impressed with how they got this beauty of a game running on a BASE PS4. Absolute wizardry.
At its core, I just dislike how the game tries to make Ellie's actions seem equal to Abby's actions. That seems like such a wildly incorrect way to view the story, but its the view the developers had. Its a shame because I liked the characters as characters, but I don't think they were utilized correctly in the story.
And while people DEFINITELY blew their hate for the game out of proportion, I feel like a lot of people defaulted to saying the story was good out of obligation. It tried new things, so we must say it succeeded whether it did or not.
how isn’t Ellie’s actions equal to Abby’s actions? They both went on the same self destructive revenge quest after losing someone they loved.
@@gavinevans1687 Its not equal because one's revenge isn't like the others. Perhaps I have a negative view of the fireflies, but I never for one second believed they could create a cure. TLOU2 did nothing to convince me that they could; one guy just said he could make the first ever fungal vaccine. In that regard Joel was the hero for stopping yet another Firefly atrociety.
However, there's another issue that has nothing to do with my opinion.
Joel losing his daughter, and refusing to lose Ellie seemed to put forth a message that a single senseless sacrifice is meaningless. Ellie would have died just like Sarah; for nothing. The narrative is a closed loop there.
Or, in TLOU2, Joel didn't make Abby watch him beat her father to death, Abby ruined all of her friend's life due to her quest for revenge and more that I don't feel like writing in a youtube comment section.
Despite the writers best efforts, I can't see Abby as anything other than a selfish, murderous lunatic who cares for nothing but her own feelings. Ellie isn't like that, and I'd go so far as to say its despicable for the writers to even try to say they're the same. Why do people give the writers that kind of grace in that regard?
@@luckyducky7819 Both acts of revenge are the exact same. Abby lost her father to Joel, Ellie lost her father figure to Abby. All other information is irrelevant to them. The game makes it clear that a cure was possible, that is what the game tells you. Doesn't matter if you believe it, it's stated as an objective fact and Marlene wouldn't let Ellie die if it weren't for some higher purpose.
Joel couldn't let Ellie die... that's why he rescued her. It made sense for a character who has lost so much to act like he did. Whether it was right or wrong is something the game leaves up to the player to discuss. It doesn't have an answer but his actions do have consequences. That's why Abby comes into the picture. Joel's actions were because he couldn't let Ellie die, Abby's goal was to actively kill Joel just like Ellie's goal was to actively kill Abby. Ellie's friends and Abby's friends paid a price as well for their selfish goals.
If you don't see Abby as anything other than a "selfish, murderous lunatic who cares for nothing but her own feelings" than that's a you problem. The game fleshes her out as a fully realized individual, someone who can do terrible, evil acts, and someone who can care for and help others. There's a duality, just like Ellie. There's good and evil inside all of us. We Abby do something truly horrific but we also see her do some good and try to be a better person. Ellie was acting like a selfish, murderous lunatic, but the end of the game, we see there's still hope for her to be good again. The two characters are so similar.
@@gavinevans1687 Your first paragraph misses something important: its not irrelevant to the player, and that's the most important thing here. From their perspective, they can be similar and that can also be dead wrong.
I'm going to skip over most of your post because there's noting wrong with your opinion, and again I'm not having a debate about this game in the youtube comment section.
However, I will say that I find people's opinions about Abby very strange. They try to make her out to seem like more than she is, and in my experience, they vaguely gesture to a bunch of subtle things about her to say he's actually a good person, or even THE good person. I found that reasoning foolish in the past, and I wonder if I'll find it foolish again.
Still, there's something you missed about Ellie and Abby: Ellie had to be pushed to kill, Abby relished in it. Killing was easy for her, so I find your talk of Ellie becoming a good person "again" bizarre. She never stopped being a good person, and its sad you even think she did. The writers might have wanted you to, but all of the WLF were horrible people who'd shoot first. Tell me, _why_ do you think Ellie stopped being a good person? Because she killed a pregnant lady? Because I've lost respect for the writers for even putting that scene in the game in the first place.
They WANTED Ellie to appear as a bad, or even the worst person, but they egregiously failed. And no amount of vague gesturing to subtle BS about the characters will change that in my eyes. In fact, this game has actually made me despise subtlety as a writing technique. I think some writers use it as a crutch.
@@luckyducky7819 Couldn't disagree more. The player is not a character in the game. Ellie and Abby are the characters, they both lose someone they love, and they respond the same exact way.
Abby's entire storyline is that she feels like shit after what she did to Joel. She spent so many years waiting for that moment, she sacrificed so much, and it didn't make her feel better. Her goal of helping Lev and Yara is her trying to redeem herself. Whether or not she succeeds is up to the gamer to decided. Joel was a terrible person until Ellie came into his life, same thing with Abby... she was a terrible person until Lev and Yara came into her life.
Abby had to be pushed to kill just as much as Ellie. Yes, Abby tortured Joel but guess what? Ellie tortured Nora, Tommy tortured that one dude, and Ellie would've tortured Abby if she found her in Seattle. Ellie is not a good person for most of the game. She's prioritizing her revenge quest over her girlfriends' well being, she's deceiving her friends, she tortured Nora, and yes she killed a pregnant woman. Why did you lose respect for them putting that scene in the game? The point is that Ellie is becoming selfish and only focused on getting her revenge on Abby. Just like Abby became selfish and only focused on getting her revenge on Joel. The game shows how everyone is capable of both good and evil.
It just seems like you don't like the challenging aspects of this story and fine, to each their own. But if you're mad about the game being subtle then it's a you problem. It's not a crutch, it's good writing.
I disagree with the part about Marleen seeming out of character. I think she can have reservations about Ellie dying in front of Jerry (who seems to be her only other equal)while putting on a strong front to Joel and any firefly subordinates to not show weakness after agreeing to go through with the surgery.
I hate being in the minority where I think the game is actually good but it's nowhere near a masterpiece that the first game was
TLOU2 is probably one of my favorite video games to come out in the last four years
cant state how much i agree with a lot of your point, and i also wanna add:
i feel like a lot of people angry about tlou2 are specifically angry about joels death, bc they projected this mascuine ideal on him and (wrongly) identify with him, and how dare they have that be ruined by having him be killed by a FEMALE?!?!?!?!? (and im saying wrongly identify with him, bc they often WANT TO identify with their version of their fav ALPHA MALE character, ignoring that joel has been living a relative comfortable life for 5 years now and was around 60 years towards his end.) like i hated his death, bc i identify joel and ellies relation ship with that of me and my own father, but i also ... well i dont wanna say enjoy or like but those words fit the best i guess, bc it fit, it made sense for a character like joel to go like that. and i fucking CRIED.
i also wanna point out that i just hate it when people argue against realistic female characters bc " games are escapism" like,,,, sure, and maybe i want to use games to escape from the world where the white cisgender heterosexual man is in the spotlight, and i want to escape from the world where woman are oversexualized and disrespected, so.... i GUESS some games DO in fact work for escapism uh.... these people lack the ability to see the world beyond the tip of their noses.
@@dwaynegarret7771regarding food, good thing the wlf had plenty of it to go around then
And idk what you mean by joel forgetting his way of living, if it's in regards to giving away his name, tommy did that, not joel
And the insult/you don't understand the world parts of this comment aren't arguments
@@andrejv.2834 I can’t even see my comment anymore, good you can tho. There is not plenty of food. It’s sustainable, not abundant. Which for body building, which is what Abby did, is not feasible. 1° Point Debunked.
Yes, Tommy did give their names, but there is more to experience than just naming yourself, why did he go to the center of the room? Even Tommy had his back to the wall, this is illogical to extremes & will always be. The fact they do patrols everyday should keep those instincts in check, yet they vanished.
2° Point Debunked.
As I said, can’t even see my comment so I don’t know about insult, but the world part, yes, you don’t understand, neither do I or anyone else. We try to understand & explain logically how it should be, but when an American went to Iraq or Afghanistan, they knew they had a home to go back to family & order in their home.
In TLOU’s World, that hope does not exist, there isn’t that certainty of going back to comfort. It’s an environment much darker & vicious than anything we’ve ever had. There’s no safety, no harmony & no hope.
@@dwaynegarret7771 so I can't see your comment either now, anyway
"There is not plenty of food. It’s sustainable, not abundant. Which for body building, which is what Abby did, is not feasible"
They have a canteen that serves food, no one is going hungry, and abby is the wlf's top assassin, so they probably went out of their way to get her what she needs to get ripped and keep her happy
"why did he go to the center of the room? Even Tommy had his back to the wall, this is illogical to extremes & will always be"
Because tommy isn't untrustworthy of strangers, even joel isn't by the time he meets sam and henry in part 1
Also they had just saved those strangers' lives and had no reason to think they'd be in danger
Also also, not like their positions mattered as they were severely outnumbered, and are also two older dudes going against a bunch of younger guys, and as this isn't part 1 where an old joel can beat up people half his age, they literally had no advantages in this situation, the moment tommy gave out their names it was over for joel
And your comment about not understanding the world was in response to the op saying they might want escapism from a world where women are oversexualised (real world), you then started that rant about not understanding how the world works or whatever
calm down, the whole point is that ppl are mad at joels death (a character who is portrayed as strong and stoic) its not that a female killed him, its the fact that someone killed him. game are escapism and the majority of ppl who play games are strait men (omg how evil) so why wouldnt they want slightly unrealistic female characters, there is nothing wrong with that, also nothing wrong with realistic characters like ellie and abby. you are taking ppls criticisms of the games story (which i very much enjoy) and projecting them onto men because of ur own inherent bias and distain for men
I love the first game more for its compactness, but Part 2 is still an excellent sequel that took some great risks, which most don’t even do. It’s the difference between a 10 and a 9.
that's the problem they misguided the story with the whole cycle of revenge narrative then do a whole 180 at the end giving Ellie the finger
The first time i started to feel like Ellie went too far was when she kills Mel
9:06 Marlene being conflicted in the first game isn't even subtext, it's literal text in the very scene with Joel you reference.
"I get it, but whatever it is you think you're going through right now is nothing to what I have been through. I knew her since she was born. I promised her mother I would look after her."
"Then why are you letting this happen?"
"Because this isn't about me or even her. There is no other choice here."
I’d like to add a 4th reason to Abby being muscular building off a comment you made. She’s extremely intimidating and anyone hunting her down must be a crazy person.
No, Ellie doesn't believe Joel at the end of the first game. She's just accepting that Joel is lying to her. She's not sure to what extent, but knows she isn't gonna get anything out of him and needs to drop it. Even Ashley Johnson said that when she did the scene, her interpretation of Ellie's "Ok" was: "Ok, you're lying to me, and our relationship isn't what I thought it was. I've gotta figure out how to deal with that on my own."
Ok, but Ashley Johnson didn't write Part 1. She also didn't write Part 2.
Not sure why my other comment isn't showing up, but you can Google what Neil Druckman said about the ending, and it's very similar to what Ashley said. No one who worked on the game interprets it as Ellie believing Joel. That's supported in the 2nd game by the fact that Ellie doesn't believe Joel. Lol That's why she has to go find out for herself and why they had grown distant after the first game.
@@NickSmith-qp2yu Death of the author babey
@robynmateo Well, sure. Druckman did say it's open to interpretation, regardless of his intentions with it, and he supports people having different interpretations, so I guess this is pretty much the definition of agree to disagree. Maybe I came on too strong by saying no, your interpretation is wrong. So I apologize. That's just not how I interpreted the ending and not how the writer or actor who portrayed it intended it.
i think a lot (most) of the hate around this game comes in the form of overlooking details or misunderstanding plot points/themes and would even go as far as to say many of yr criticisms also fall under that umbrella. all said, great video, looking forward to more
This was one of the best analyses of TLOU2 that I have ever seen. Keep doing what you're doing.
Okay So I just wanted to say I liked this video A lot. I'm a massive fan of the games in general So I always appreciated hearing amore positive view on it for once.
That being said there was a a few things that I felt needed to be mentioned at the beginning of the video that I just wanted to voice. Not really trying to convince you or anyone else otherwise, I'm just bringing in my point of view to the table.
So about the part where ya hated the Open world section at the beginning of Seattle. I always looked at it more of kind of realistic situation, cause the previous scene makes you want to go in guns blazing but much like reality you kind of have to go through the mundane tasks of preparation. I mean even the game itself plays off of Ellie's emotions in this section. She's getting impatient, she just want's to find the people that started this, but she is having to be forced to slow down. It's a more subtle way of bringing reality into the game I think. More so than it is an opportunity for Naughty Dog to show of.
As far as the switch up with Marlene between the two games. i always thought that the reason why we are seeing two sides is because in the first game we are seeing it from Joels Perspective. Strictly from his perspective. But even then if you listen to the tapes that you find at the end of the first game. Marlene does have some sorrow that comes with this situation. it always felt like that she was hesitant of doing it, but even in those tapes she mentions/ hints at the fact that it probably would've been done with or without her permission because that's just how desperate everyone, especially the doctors are. So when you compare that to the Marlene we see in part II. It makes sense and it does follow along with her character. If you look at just the cutscenes alone then yea it gets confusing but when you are taking the time to read her journal as well as listen to the tapes. It's on point with her character.
Again awesome video and everything else I can agree with you on.
Interesting, I recently thought about why they decided for you having to play Abby (and even having to try Killing Ellie) and my explanation was, that they wanted the player to feel the hatred that Ellie is harbouring.
Now I find your video and you basically describe the same thought, but going much deeper with the interesting concept of clone characters and metaphors. Thanks for taking the time in the video to elaborate those concepts and views!
Though you could argue, while Joel and Abby both are protector kind of persons, Abby is somewhat a clone character of Ellie, or vice versa: Their most beloved person got killed, which fills them with anger, hatred and lust for revenge.
PS: So maybe naugthy dogs goal is achieved, just instead that the gamers who hated (!) the game didn't go on a physical revenge hunt, but used todays ways of expressing this through social media. 😅
The last of us 1 gameplay its mid but the Story is amazing, the last of us 2 story is good(didnt like too much havib to play as Abbie) and the gameplay is amazing, i dont understand How people say its a bad game, must be fortnite players or sum
I loved the pacing, I’ve never heard anyone say they didn’t care for Jessie & the open world segment doesn’t need to move the story to be interesting
Judging by the comments I'm definitely in the minority lol. Idk Jesse never seemed interesting to me, but that must just be me I guess. I will say that the open world section is a lot of fun to explore (it's also really cool to drive into downtown Seattle and realize how accurate the game was).
your complaint about the dissonance of you fighting ellie as abby is literally the point. the point of that fight, like LOTS of the game is to do something you do not agree with, getting the feeling of “shit i should NOT be doing this”. then again you get the same feeling fighting abby as ellie, thats why they are both so frail in the last fight, it all feels wrong.
anyone sane would also have had the same feeling playing the last portion of the first game rescuing ellie. that whole massacre is supposed to make you feel bad for doing it. even if most gamers are psycopaths and that flew straight thru their heads
Finished the video and it was excellent. This was the game that showed me how shallow internet critics can actually be. It's completely 100% fine to hate the game if you hate that Joel died, but at least own it. Instead, they try to convince you the game has bad writing when it's actually incredibly well thought out and some of the best of it's medium.
Why did Joel kill Marlene? 🤔 I've been thinking about it.
he didnt like her i guess
He literally says “you’ll only come after her”
@@gavinevans1687 do you see my point?
@@painebatke9144 no. He killed most of the fireflies, why wouldn’t he kill Marlene?
@@gavinevans1687 he is being cautious, right?
You're wrong. It's great, actually
-Overuse of Deux ex machina
-Highly hypocritical
-Poorly executed
Whatever the video has to say, i will not change my pov of the game because what i stated is uniquevocably true.
AND I'M NOT one of those that dislike the game because they killed Joel, neither because they killed him the way they did, i like when a game, movie, series, has the balls to take risks, but because of how highly pretentious it was while simultaneously miserably failing to deliver its message properly.
Can you imagine if TLOU part 2 was about ABBY ONLY, how great i would've been? NO JOEL OR ELLIE in the trailer, just her and new characters, we control her from the beginning and we learn that she wants to avenge her father's death, we grow fond of her and her friends with no unnecessary hypocrisy (like when the game wants you to feel bad for what you did but it basically forces your to do some actions to advance in the story) and then, at the end of the game, at the very end, we found the guy that killed her father, AND IT HAPPENS TO BE JOEL, how MINDBOGGLINGLY GOOD IT WOULD'VE ACTUALLY BEEN, there you would've had truly conflicted feelings, the game would've REALLY managed to express it's imessage, while having an EPIC plot twist.
It would certainly be interesting, but I don't think the metaphor would work if half of it was presented in a different game.
I just played both in 2024, my review is rather short 😂
Totally agree. Masterpiece.
I think it’s good overall but I think both sides feed each other. I don’t think it’s close to being better than the first one, it isn’t the best story of revenge and redemption but it’s good. It also isn’t complete shite, the gameplay is fun and the story is compelling. I do think killing Joel was a mistake because they couldn’t replace him with any character as interesting as him. I think Abby could’ve been but I don’t think we have enough time with her for her change from a solider to a parent to lev. We had the entire 10-12 hour game over a few months to see Joel’s change. We instead have 6 hours taking place over 3 days. I think the idea for the same is great and interesting but maybe doesn’t work for the last of us. My personal issue is after Joel’s death, I really didn’t care about any of the characters, I feel
Like the game is stretched too thin. We don’t spend enough time with Jesse, Dina, Abby, lev, yara, manny, Owen or the pregnant one. The game takes place over several years technically but I think again it’s too spread thin. We spent 80% of the game over 4 days. Then skip several months and have several flashbacks through different years. A lot of the levels kinda lead to nothing like how the video mentions the first part of game looking for gas and where Ellie plays guitar for Dina. I think Abby should’ve been more compelling/ consistent. I sympathise with her backstory but because I like Joel and Ellie I really don’t give a damn about Jerry. I could ramble about what the game direction should’ve been but In short I think it should’ve been about Abby being part of the last fireflies seeking to find Ellie to make a cure, I think if she was suppose to kill Joel ot should’ve been later in the game after giving him a chance to leave maybe after severally injuring him in the prologue. I think people would’ve enjoyed her character more, liking her character isn’t important but understanding and enjoying what she does is. I think she should’ve been a clear antagonist. We can have development and see her side but her main goal should be constantly opposing to Ellie’s. I didn’t like Abby because she was kinda wishy washy, she’s no offence a bit boring. After she kills Joel she has nothing left really, which is in part tied to how revenge gets you noting but I don’t think we need some orphan to be given a suragote parent in Abby. I think they should’ve given her a clear moral responsibility she feels she has. She wants to complete her father work but in trying to do she faces constant moral dilemmas, does she kill Joel? Do to Ellie but Joel did her? How would Ellie feel? Would she go through with it if given a second chance?
First of, whatever I'm going to say, congrats on actually getting your opinion out without being a dick about it, especially on the mine field that this game's discourse is. I want to say that because, I don't want to come of as a hater of your video, or you. Absolutely not my type of interaction.
Now just to be clear on where I stand on the game's appreciation, I didn't like the game at all. I thought it was a pointless exercise in misery that managed to take twice the length of the first episode to say less than half. It's for me the prime example of a game that way less than the sum of his part. Also, I'm team Abby, I didn't relate to Ellie's plight at all. And I don't think killing Joel, in a gruesome matter, was an issue either. Makes perfect sense emotionally and narratively for how that character was portrayed.
Now that being said, I am a bit disappointed I just watch an hour long video titled "The Last of Us 2 is Good, Actually" that tries to tell me why in the last about 10-15 min, but focuses for 35 min on the worst, most nitpicky and most bad faith arguments against the game that you can find out there. You have great videos being positive about that game : HelloFutureMe and LadyKnightTheBrave both made great thematic analysis. I disagree with how successful the game is with what they put forward, but their arguments are not pushing against low bro "plotholes" that in the grand scheme of things don't matter. You have SoSaysJay who recently put out a video about the stealth system of the game (unfair of me to say because you release yours before, but just an example of an actual defense of the game). These videos, even when I disagree with their conclusions, are doing a good job expressing why "The Last of Us 2 is Good, Actually".
And NakeyJakey made a great and hilarious charge against the game and Naughty Dogs' game design in general. And in terms of more balanced critic of the nitpicky type, you should watch Macabre Storytelling for example.
What baffles me a bit, is that your final point is not a bad one for a meta understanding of the game, I kind of like it. But it comes after 35 min of poor rebuttal of bad arguments...why do that? I think I would have enjoyed the video way more if you focused on that metaphor/parallel part and expended that idea for like 30 minutes and just dropped the response to 4yo comments made mostly by bigots (we need to stop giving credits to homophobes, mysogynists and transphobes by treating their arguments as worthy of an anwser).
And just to answer to the question of the flashback being a metaphor for letting Abby go (or the other way around)...the issue is not here, and I think you also are missing the forest for the tree. I am a hundred percent certain that any player with a lick of media literacy is not blind to that juxtaposition. The issue is not that this is more than "Oh Joel wouldn't want me to avenge his death". The issue is that the game didn't earn that moment, emotionally or narratively, and just threw the flashback in at the worst possible moment to try and justify not having Ellie kill Abby. It can feel plot-devicy despite the possible meta-intention that you put forward.
I will say I wasn’t so attached to Joel like most people so the death didn’t bother me much, that being said I enjoyed the gameplay of the second game, as well as big spectacle moments. But the story is flawed. It’s structured very poorly in my opinion. For example you get to the half way point of the game and then it loses all momentum and shifts back to square one with Abby. Overall I’d give it a 6/10
Ah yes what a masterpiece! I particularly enjoyed the scene where Ellie ended two people and then her, Tommy & Jesse all failed to pick up the map which clearly outlined all the places they'd visited whilst in Seattle and identified the location of their base and left it laying on the floor next to the lifeless bodies ready for Abby to find. That's the best idea Druckmann & Gross could come up with to move the story along! Just one example of the many edgy teen's first project on a script writing course at a community college level writing littered throughout this "masterpiece". There are certainly masterful aspects of the game, the photo realistic graphics, the quality of the animations, the environmental design, the voice acting, the soundtrack etc but the narrative structure, pacing, plot holes & amateurish writing really let it down. The people who try to pretend that it's so deep and misunderstood and anyone who doesn't connect with it must lack emotional intelligence are just as bad as those who hate it simply because Abby has muscles.
You watch the video? I never claimed anyone who didn't connect with it lacked emotional intelligence or were bad people, and even said there were valid reasons not to like the game. I literally even said that the goal of the video wasn't to get you to like the game, but to get you to better understand it.
@@robynmateo Yes I watched the video. I didn't say that you personally claimed people who didn't like the game lacked emotional intelligence, I was pointing out that that is a common criticism thrown out by one side in the toxic discourse surrounding this title and it's just as annoying as the other side who only dislike it due to Abby's character design. Most people don't need help to better understand this game, in fact it's almost insultingly basic in the way it deals with it's themes and left many of us eye rolling our way through it. Apologies if my comment felt like a personal attack, it wasn't intended that way.
Not only is it good, it's a masterpiece
The Last of Us is one of the best games ever made. The Last of Us Part II is GOTY ❤
Very religious imagery. Ellie having a wound on her side and she’s almost a God like figure. 100% she represents Jesus Christ but in a twisted way. She’s the savior of the world.
I dont get the complain about the open world area? It was fun and what you mean by „waste of time“ the gane is only bout 24 hours long and it wasnt fast enough for you?
I guess like, I feel that while it was fun it didn't really add much to the game as a whole. Like, the game is already 24 hours long.
always down to watch another video about this game thanks for contributing to the positive community built agaisnt all the negativity. best game of all time!!
The game's gameplay is emaculate
a bit pointless trying to have a good faith argument about tlou 2 coz the other side is way too stupid to have a constructive conversation
Wrong. Ellie doesn't believe Joel but theres currently nothing she can do about it other than say ok. She doubts thats true they just gave up & that all of this was for nothing. Hence y yrs later she felt the urge to investigate herself & kept poking & asking about the cure & fireflies. If she believed him she would've dropped it completely & moved on.
I
Another thing, i find it funny how idiots say joel dod nothing wrong 😂. Hes a stranger trying to force adopt a lil girl to replace the 1 he lost. Nowadays people call that a pedophile or creep, but with joel its sweet & loveable 😂.
Nah joel (btw i do love him as a character) is weird! He did bandit evil actions when younger with tommy & never apologized to him for it, drags Ellie into being his surrogate daughter & then knows her dream & goals & selfishly takes that from her hurting her ass alot mentally as she got older & found out the truth.
Joel is a dick & got what was coming to him from Abby for all that bad karma he put out there. Man made it his life goal to make enemies 😂 & hurt people that cared for him. But people to dumb to see that. He aint bad or evil but he still a dickhead & tends to have no remorse for actions in the past thus when those past actions spun the block joel knew yeah my times up & just accepted it 🤷🏿♂️.
The story is an 8.5 just wish Abby was a stronger character narrative wise that game is her own story as much as it is Ellie's and we know zilch about her or her friends. We know why Abby hates Joel but not any of her friends one of them spat on him and for what
It really is
Yes but story isn't what it was in the first game.
Underrated asf
My favorite game ever
It always has been!
W vid
You released this on the day I got it lol
i liked it :)
I still hate number 2
"The Last of Us 2 is Good, Actually"
-No it's not.
I liked TLOU1 but would not play TLOU2 because of what they did to Joel. TLOU2 was released in a really bad time. This game is in Seattle. There were the Seattle riots. It was a time we needed heroes. It would be even more depressing to play a game where they kill off a hero. As of today, I will not play it because I've been made aware of Neil Druckmann. In the last Uncharted he wanted to kill off Nathan Drake. The staff and Amy Hennig fought against that is the reason why that did not happen.