Why did the Mongols Leave Europe? DOCUMENTARY
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- Опубліковано 19 лют 2024
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Kings and Generals is Unraveling the Mystery: Why Did the Mongols Suddenly Withdraw from Europe in 1242? Dive deep into history's enigma with us as we explore the perplexing reasons behind one of the most baffling military maneuvers of all time. After a year of dominating Eastern Europe, the Mongol army's unexpected retreat sparked intrigue and speculation. Was it political intrigue, environmental challenges, limited goals, or military weakness? Join the debate as we dissect the four major theories, backed by historical evidence and expert analysis. Delve into the secrets of the past and uncover the truth behind the Mongols' puzzling departure from Europe, 800 years later.
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I put it down to general attrition, lack of familiarity with the lands & most of pre industrial Europe being bogs & marshlands.
Germany & the HRE was a very different land before industrialization being far less suited to mounted combat.
Hungary did survive with deep ditches & tall walls even if far worse for wear.
Hungary & Austria that formed as Austro-Hungary was historically known as the Bulwark of Christendom for without them Central & western Europe would have experienced far more foreign invasion.
Poland was swift campaign but not without loses but Hungary was slow tedious affair for the Mongolians were the Hungarians took up the small war as Grand battle proved pointless.
Both Vietnam & Hungary learnt facing the Mongolians directly was effectively pointless due to their mounted ranged mobility.
Terrain & siege was their greatest assets in non conventional small war.
@@arnijulian6241😅😮
Love your videos!💚
hey could you make a vidio on guirilla warfare 😯
It could be also all of them. While death of Khan end invasion. Mongols also faced fierce resistance, they forces were tired after previous conquests and invasion was not yet the main goal. He didn't trust such important mission to be done by someone else, so he called off whole thing.
Batu 1241: My stomach hurts. Let's go home...
Historians centuries later: WHY???
Or maybe the wife back home sent him an angry letter, asking him why he's so obsessed with someone named Bela.
@@stephenbaluran3298lol
@@stephenbaluran3298 Bah! Alexander wouldn't have chickened out.
@@sizanogreen9900 His army did though, unlike the Mongol army
@@aburoach9268true enough I guess xD Didn't help Darius tho.
Interesting. I'd always assumed that the "Great Khan death" theory was settled history.
Can a theory ever be settled without becoming a law or an equivalent ?
@@oleopathic yes it can be settled and can still exist as an theory. A law on the other hand explains a set of observations about a scientific topic like newton' laws.
@@dogukantopal4809 I've never heard of a settled theory. It seems like an oxymoron, wouldn't you say?
@@oleopathic Hypothesis and theory are sometimes mistaken with each other . A proven and settled hypothesis would be a theory and if its concerns different scientific branches all together it would be a law. An example of an "settled" theory would be the Darwin's theory of evolution, it is proven and settled that evolution exists and creatures change over time according to their enviroments. But it mainly concerns a single scientific branch which would be biology therefore it is a theory not a scientific law.
U aint shit lil homie
This is excellent. Historical events rarely have a single, tidy cause. Having multiple theories that don't agree with each other reflects how history actually is as a field of study.
Batu, is a general but notice he does not have an actual Kingdom to rule. When the Khan dies, he his force withdrawal and do a land grab. They go out and secure their own kingdoms for themselves before the new Khan is in place. Notice too Batu doesn't return home for fear of being assassinated.
I mean if you can get paid...
That's why I love it. It's like a puzzle with many pieces. Trying to piece them together to form a coherent picture. Wadeing through the bias and contemporary geo politics of the time whilst doing so. Man I love history :D
Short version: “We don’t know. Thanks for watching.”
You wright
"...but we got you to think. Welcome to real history."
Apparently, escaping to an island was the preferred choice of Kings running from the Mongols. The Khwarizmid Sultan also escaped to an Island in the caspian sea
He never left that island, though, unlike Bela.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣Finally, a little sarcasm on this ridiculous, superficial little video! The Mongol imperial army was unable to capture half of the castles of the Kingdom of Hungary, and the guerrilla strategy of our Hungarian warriors destroyed most of their invasion force even without the king! That's why they wore down in 1242 and 1285! Not because of hoax theories and mirage hypotheses! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@tiboruhrin4080 Here we go with the myths to inflate national feeling that never happened
@@saretgnasoh7351 Cynicism is a pathetically forced counterpoint to sarcasm! However, to answer! 1. The strategic goal of the Mongol imperial army was to occupy the Kingdom of Hungary and enslave its inhabitants!2. Their victory at Pyrrhic with too much blood sacrifice affected their invasion plans because of their loss of life in this battle! 3. This is why they were unable to completely occupy the castle system ruling the Kingdom of Hungary! 4. The local noble force, independent of the royal army, with their guerrilla tactics, which developed into a coherent strategy, so many more times ensnared the Mongol raiders with insufficient local knowledge, who constantly detached themselves from the Mongol main army! This grinds up the main strike force of the Mongol Imperial Army! This is how the glory of the world's empires falls! Pomposity is a bad adviser! See the fall of the Soviet and later Yankee empires in contemporary Afghanistan. Against a goat herder vandalizing with a few thousand ak in Vietnamese slippers! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@thomasrinschler6783 Nor did he have a nobility allergic to imperial arrogance, like Bela in the Kingdom of Hungary!
“Will we see a continuation of the Mongol invasion of Europe on your Wizards and Warriors channel?”
Yes
@@KingsandGeneralsAWESOME!!!
@@KingsandGeneralscould you feature or mention Duke Jean 1 of Brittany he was a cousin to the king
wait they run that channel as well? sick
@@KingsandGeneralsnice!!!
An interesting fact is that there is a Mongolic people that still live in Europe: the Kalmyks. Kalmyks live between the Volga river and the Caucasus in Russia, and its republic Kalmykia is the only place in Europe where Buddhists are the dominant religion group.
Sami are Mongol origin
Kalmyks have very rich history both glorious and sad. Kalmyks played important role in Russian defense against Napoleon. They were also part of soviet army that entered Germany in WWII. Those who were taken hostage by Germans later immigrated to USA, with help of Leo Tolstoy foundation, Tolstoy had Kalmyk ancestors. There are also sad history of Torghud migration aka last great nomadic migration, and Kalmyk exile to Siberia by Stalin.
@@dreddykrugernewSami and Finnic peoples were in northern Europe for thousands of years before the Mongol expansion. True that they have a eastern origin but not as far as mongol or east asian.
@@ballenboy Indo Europeans migrated into Europe thousands of years ago
But they migrated to Europe in 17th century
This Kings and Generals channel is pure wealth.
From what I gathered from multiple sources, the most likely option is that a number of factors made the conquest of western Europe not worth the effort for the mongols, and Batu was smart enough to quit while he was ahead.
For starters, there was a HUGE distance between Europe and the core of the Mongolian empire, which meant that any army that tried to conquer Europe would have essentially been on its own, unable to receive substantial reinforcements. Moreover the amount of resources that could be diverted to attack Europe were limited, since the Mongols had to patrol and control a huge empire already.
In addition to this, Europe proved to be a tough nut to crack. While the mongols achieved significant military successes in Eastern Europe, they didn't really fare well in sieges against stone castles (which they often left alone) and Western Europe had many more stone castles compared to Poland and Hungary. The Mongols certainly had the means to perform successful siege operations (like the did in China) but it would have slowed down considerably, making them lose their main advantage (mobility). Moreover, due to the decentralization of Europe due to the feudal system, they couldn't just strike the enemy capital and cut the snake's head, so to speak, but they'd be stuck sieging castle after castle just to bring down a single region. In addition to this, Western Europe was not suitable at all for their style of warfare, since the hilly and rugged terrain would reduce their mobility and make their cavalry vulnerable.
To summarize, the Mongols would have certainly tried to conquer Europe if they thought that they could do so easily. Invading Poland and Hungary was almost certainly an attempt to establish a beachhead from which they could stage further campaigns into Europe. But after taking a better look at the western part of Europe, not to mention after suffering significant casualties due to the resistance of the locals, Batu most likely realized that trying to proceed further west would have been incredibly hard and would have resulted in a pyrrhic victory at best, so he did the smart thing and turned away.
Mongolian historians argue that Lack of Goals as the main reason. It is agreed that initial purpose of Batu campaign was to subjugate Kipchaks, who fled to eastern europe. And army that was preparing for european expedition mentioned by Carpini, was actually Ugudei's descendants to subjugate Jochi Ulus (Genghis Khan's oldest son), because Jochi descendants didn't approve Uguudei lineage as Great khans. Your points are probably also valid, but bottom line is Mongol Empire never really planned to conquer Europe. As mentioned in the video, Mongolian army raided eastern europe and left, didn't leave a garrison, which makes no sense if European conquest was planned at all.
@@amgalanbaatarbat-erdene6261 Given the size of their invading armies and the fact that they actually probed deeply into europe, I'd argue that the Mongols probably had multiple possible objectives for their campaign: raiding new territories and subjugating the Kipchaks were certainly among them, but I believe that testing Europe's defenses and even conquer it if it was feasible were also objectives of this campaign. The fact that they turned away once king Bela escaped capture and the europeans actually started moving to fight them back support this in my opinion: they had already achieved the "main" objectives of their campaign, and since the "optional" ones were just too difficult they simply called it a day.
@@ValeTheOwl Well put. The Mongols were opportunists that raided and pillaged, and often claimed vassal states wherever they went. However, there were times when it was just not feasible to continue. Batu was in charge, and you're right. I too think he understood this. There were simply too many obstacles to warrant a further advance. The fierce resistance from the locals, the costly battles as of far, the distance from Mongolia, the difficult terrain, and so on. It really shows his brilliance as a leader. Like you said, he quit while ahead
Realms always meet their nemesis! Batu found it in the person of Bela! And in the Hungarian nobility, allergic to imperial pomposity!
I think the greatest issues were diverting resources to conquer Europe. The Mongols would have to march thousands of miles to reach Poland and Hungary from Karakorum. Even for their invasion of the Jin Dynasty in the 1230s, which was closer, it was still a significant logistical hurdle due to the sheer distance and the amount of men they had to put into the field to match the Jin (perhaps 120k Mongols and federated vassals). While China was densely populated with many vast and fertile river valleys, the same cannot be said for the underdeveloped and, as you said, decentralized polities of Europe, which did not have the means to supply such massive armies for prolonged periods of time, even via forage and tribute from the local populace.
Of course, the Mongols were still very inured to hardship and, if we put aside logistical difficulties, everything else was not strange to them. Climate and weather are challenges they had faced before, in the dry and frigid steppes, as well as the snow-peaked and freezing mountains. Indeed, they had braved mountain ranges in several campaigns under Chinggis Khan and Subugatai to operationally turn the defensive lines of their enemies, in addition to hot and barren deserts bereft of water, except for a few oases. People overstate the difficulties that the Mongols would have faced due to terrain, but all of the greatest Mongol campaigns had been done under the most brutal conditions when one studies them in depth. On several occasions, Chinggis and Subugatai had marched through mountain ranges to outflank the Jin, the Xia, and moved through the harsh deserts to catch the Khwarezmians unaware.
Nor would they have particular trouble with European fortifications, as the Jin and Khwarezmians also have many castles and forts, built out of bricks, stone, and reinforced by packed earthworks. The fortifications in the East were just as high quality and dense in quantity, especially in China where almost every town was fortified with earthworks and, in the case of Chinggis Khan's Samarkand Campaign, the Khwarezmians had the Syr Darya Line with a formidable river before their length of fortresses, all of which had to be reduced over several months of campaigning. Even without their primary advantage of mobility in conducting these campaigns, in which they had to be more methodical, the Mongols still managed to overcome their adversaries, who were typically more centralized and powerful than the individual European states.
Another thing which is more specific to the Mongol commanders themselves were that Chinggis and Subugatai weren't your average Mongol commanders, nor were they like your average commanders in general. Their art of war was unique in that it was extremely ahead of its time and based on large scale operational manoeuvres utilizing many tumen as if they were divisions or corps. This is something Europe would not really develop until the 18th and 19th centuries, but was a huge advantage which very few generals in Medieval times grasped the concept of. Most of the Mongol generals did not even take war to such a high level, but still operated on the usual status quo and this was especially problematic because the generation of Chinggis and Subugatai were the golden generation; their feats were never reproduced after they had died and one can clearly see that by studying the campaigns of Nogai or Tokhtamysh, as well as Temur to a lesser extent (though he did experiment with it in his Indian Campaign, unlike his peers). It would be like if you took Moltke the Elder and placed him as a general in the Medieval Era. He would have absolutely dominated every other commander of that time, just because of his superior understanding of large scale operations, which almost nobody else did back then.
Im still wondering why no one has made a full game solely focused on the Mongol conquests starting from Chinggis Khan uniting the tribes all the way to the death of Mongke Khan. It would make one hell of a game, in my opinion.
I just want a time machine, to go back and observe and maybe play the ambassador of some country so in actual history some German micro kingdom swore an oath to the Mongols and the Khans lol
It would make a great game or trilogy of epics
Eh? KOEI already made that in the 1980s.
@@tobo7580I would prefer to be the ambassador of the Great khan. By the way, he was an Englishman, one of the pro-images of Robin Hood. Quite a remarkable person he was, one of the authors of the Manga Charta, a fellow of St Francis in the Fifth Crusade, a knight of Tapesond Empire. Poet, politician, warrior and womanizer.
Was just thinking Asassins Creed should do it or Ubisoft. Just embrace the mythology, and RPG aspects too. I have no idea what Mongols believed so it would be a cool game.
Play as a Mongol general. Tons of horse combat with large scale battles. Lead your troops into battle. Use the Falcon to give orders.
Would be cool. I'm playing Ragnarok, and just thinking the game is better with the magical abilities.
When I feel bummed out that UA-cam has turned into a platform for A.I.-overloaded generic content, a Kings and Generals notification appears to raise my spirits.
They are the last human holdouts. They must be defended at all costs.
I just can't imagine the logistic and administrative challenges the Mongols were facing. This was the age when you rely on horses for transportation, across the entire Eurasian continent. It is not like Batu could just send a Whatsapp message to the Mongol court and have reinforcements and supplies flying in the next day.
They usually take reinforcements and supplies from the lands that they raid
Mongols were nomads.....
They lived off the land they conquered and occupied they did not need supplies from Mongolia.
Well considering that everyone else also had awful logistics and transfer of information .it wasnt as bad as you think. They had days to think about moves
They kept stuff pretty basic. Whatever they wanted they sent a rider to deliver a message.
It's not a modern mechanized Army. Weaponry and food could be sourced locally. Animals grazed or ate locally acquired hay.
The reason for the Mongol retreat was probably a combination of political, logistical and military difficulties.
After the conquest of lowland Hungary, the Mongols reached the shores of the Adriatic, but the mountainous area in the hinterland of Dalmatia did not have enough pastures, and it was also ideal for guerrilla warfare. Isolated Mongolian detachments were destroyed near Sebenico, the island of Pag, the fortified towns of Trau and Clissa. The death of Ogodei contributed to the final decision to withdraw.
When I learned history in college, I had to write the local effects and happenings of the mongol invasion of 1241. In the hungarian plains it was quite common practice for the people who lived there to flee into the swamps in time of need. They did so during the mongol invasion too, and with one mongol party some local hungarian peasants lured them into the swamps, by saying that they are starving and they are willing to surrender, so they guided them into the middle of the swamp, then set the whole thing on fire. All of them burned and choked there.
I wonder how well Mongols knew about Europe politically. AFAIK, Mongols did usually gather very much intelligence about their target countries before attacking. It would be prudent to assume that Mongols knew Hungarian, Polish and Balkan lands quite well but how well did they know about the capabilities Holy Roman Empire or France in detail?
They learnt some from Italian envoys in Crimea colonies.
I am just speculating, but maybe they didnt deem it neccessary. There is such a thing called "victory disease" when you defeated so many enemies in the past, that you just extrapolate that next one will be easy target as well...
If you recall that the ambassador of Mongols was an English templar and participant of the Fifth Crusade, you will have little doubts on the issue.
Trade treaty with Venitians too
Marco Polo literally served under Kublai Khan while he was in Asia.
My theory, which I almost always use when there are many theories, is "a little bit of everything" and it has never failed me.
This, very much this.While the specific theories may conflict, the core of their arguments do not. There were significant casualties suffered by the Mongols in Poland and Hungary, more than they were likely used to, and with the death of ogedai, it was likely difficult to get reinforcements to continue the campaign since so many were going east to choose the new Khan. Combine that with bad weather, poorer grazing opportunities than were ideal, and he probably just went back to regroup but got bogged down with ruling eastern Europe.
If for nothing else they were at the end of their logistical line, because even the Mongols as the equestrian nomads they were, had their logistical limit. All empires and military campaigns have it, and theirs ended in Hungay and Poland. No military force or army expanded as far as they did on land, a record achievement before the advent of the steam powered and gasoline fuel engines.
Highly rational and unbiased comment here
Awesome Channel with equally awesome content. ANYTHING to do with the Mongols and other peoples of Steppe greatly interests me! Great job as always!
Suggestion: On your Wizards and Warriors Channel, how about exploring the Dune Universe and in particular THE SARDAUKAR?
I just thought that they realised that, with so many losses, they would be stretched far too thin to conquer, secure and maintain the land. So, they left on a high note, knowing that they had spread fear, and leaving the door open to come back again.
Well, they left just four thousands of Mongols to keep the land between Carpathian mountains and what now is Eastern Khazakhstan. They knew a great political art of conquering locals to their administration. Why couldn't they spend some three hundreds more to rule Hungary?
The Mongols returned and launched a second invasion, but the Hungarians were prepared and defeated them.
@@clayerhun1597 Khulagu attacked Bagdad, not Esztergom. Or do you mean the raid by Nogai? Exactly 20 times smaller in force? I remember Hungarian sources were so proud they succeeded in stopping these incomplete 2 thousand horsemen. Almost as proud as Muslims of their success about Ain Jalut, where 45 thousand Mamluks were victorious over 15 thousand Mongols.
@@sobolzeev Ooof, where did you get these numbers ? No one argues the second invasion of Hungary was conducted with 2000 men. Modern estimates vary but I never saw a number below 20 000 to be claimed. Stefan Krakowski mentions 30 000 men, P. Jackson mentions a considerable force, that might have been comparable in numbers to the one engaged in the first invasion. Contemporary chroniclers advance numbers in the hundred of thousands although these are definitely inflated. So yeah, what's your source for the 2000 men only ?
Also same thing with the Mameluks, estimates for their forcd are 15000 to 20000 not 45 000.
Exactly, they were already defeated in syria amd couldnt conquer the rest of the middle east, they simply reached their limits.
I think there is another option here not being considered. The hordes had just reached Germany. Eastern Europe and Western Europe had very different military technology and tactics. Western Europe heavily relied upon mass Castles and had "Heavy Cavalry". We know that in later conflicts Eastern Europe started to adopt Western European tactics and technology to great success against the Mongols. It's possible Batu was smart enough to understand that going further into Europe was going to be problematic. As in he had insight that later Mongols did not.
I believe it was Poland that got crushed by the Mongols numerous times that a revolutionary King spent his life building castles and hiring/training Heavy Cavalry to try and prepare for their next attack. And when they did they got crushed.
I think the crusades against Saladin showed that the European contingents of heavily armored knights were very effective against the lightly armored forces. Where situations where the crusaders were outnumbered 2:1 or 3:1 the crusaders ended up routing them.
This channel and Wizards and Warriors are my favorite war channels
Awesome video you really did a great job explaining how major world changing events almost never happened in vacuum
I've argued for many years that they couldn't have kept going even if they wanted to. The land they were heading into was only getting more densely populated and less favorable, leaving before giving their enemies a chance to regroup and counter attack was just good sense. They probably planned to try again but never got the chance but I still believe they would have been contained in the Carpathian basin just like the Magyars before them.
They did try again, they invaded Europe 3 times, only the first invasion was successful. In later battles they lost most of their men
@@starfox300 I meant 'They' as in Batu and Subutai who iirc never returned to Europe
My theory is the "hard to take harder to hold" theory.
A combination of well built stone towers capable of dealing horrific casualties before being taken on every other hilltop across the lands and the forests being home to what ammount to armies of guerilla fighters who pick off every other patrol, scout and forrager who ventures into the trees (which is unavoidable) Europe, while its armies in the field could be crushed, there were just too many fortified possitions and too many places for small groups of fighting men to hide and strike from to hold.
These things combined made Europe an unending slog over every damn hill with their rear constantly being harassed by guerilla fighters so the mongols chose to peace TF out.
In every other place the mongols conquered, they faced forces who preferred to fight in the open field and fortified possitions were few and far between, Europe was the opposite. It was unending siege warfare on every hilltop and constantly needing to devote troops to comb every inch of every forest constantly. Fact is, even for a force like the mongols, that wears on them, breaking down their confidence bit by bit, victories become harder and fewer, moralle drops a little more day by day.
Also the territories that had submitted? They were constantly unruly, so one message from back home saying say "hey, the Rus are getting rebellious again and we dont have enough forces to crush them" the mongols were like "... fuck it" and got out of europe.
Almost 100 % agreed. But one more thing to add. They also couldn't crush any solidified empire like China or Persia. Even if they killed 3 Emperors and 5 Kings they would still have to take like 9 morbilion castles and fortifications regardless. The HREs fractured nature would mean that by the time they conquered 10 counties, the first 3 would rebel. After slowly crushing that, 3 others would be rebelling already. Like whack a mole, but with every hit, you lose a part of your finger. For the mongols the HRE would be a mine field. They would spend 10 years conquering what amounts to 5% of their total territory and bearly be able to hold or control it.
Like you said hard to take harder to control. High Risk, low reward.
@@mostgar Except for the empires which you don't know because they crushed them
😂🎉😮🎉😢🎉🎉
I think that you have limited knowledge of Mongol conquests and geography. China and Korea were way more populous and better fortified than Europe during that time. Also Iran and Caucasus have naturally defendable positions all over them.
Really the only reason central Europe wasn't affected is it was just way too far away.
europe isn't that mountainous. mongols conueoroed regions that is far more difficult geographically climatic. i stick to the mainstream opinion that europe was saved because the khan died.
Love the way everything is told, the different theories, why they may be true and why the may not. Would love a series on the mongol conquests
Awesome video, thanks for your hard work creating and sharing these!
I imagine that the elements of all four theories converged. They realized it was going to be a huge pain in the butt to fight deeper into Europe with their depleted armies. In Germany and France, if you throw a rock it'll bounce off three castles before it hits the ground. I can imagine Batu looking West and thinking, "Well, we did spank the Kipchaks, and now Ogedei is dead. Why not take the W we have and come back later?"
The Mongols *did* come back later, and it didn't go well at all... the Poles and Hungarians spent the intervening time building castles everywhere.
There is multiple reasons
They were overstretched, they had internal politics going on, and european warfare wasnt suited for them (Strong castles and forteresses of high quality everywhere, forests everywhere at that time, heavy cavalry/knights + crossbowmen being effective etc....)
more population compared with the steps also helps, is nothing compared with china, but china was centralized making it easier to take in a big atack, europe was full of small kingdoms in florest and mountains with their strong castles and fortified cities. They would need to siege so many castles to take a kingdom, and europe was full of them. They prob could win the war, but at what cost and in how much time?
if you look to the border countries that where invaded, they all had more european style cities and castles and they dint full conquest them, and even so they ended up spending many years taking them, and europe was way worse
They only managed to conquer China because they fully committed a 30 year campaign to take cities and fortifications. They augmented their armies with conquered Han people in Northern China, Turks and others. With Europe they simply did not have the manpower, political unity and resources to carry the scale of operation as in China.
@@grimgoreironhide9985 also the fortifications in China were not of the same quality as european ones
@@alexs2195 Also you have to remember it took a very long time for the Mongols to conquer China. A literal Khan even died during a siege. So I'd reckon they didn't want to waste manpower and time throwing their men against castles. Especially when the empire was so fragmented because of the quarrels of the Mongol princes. Despite the empire's size the Mongols could muster a single big army and Mongke sent the majority of the Mongol army to Baghdad and Song(which eventually got him killed). After Mongke's death the empire was just over. It stopped being a single entity anymore.
Battles in Poland and Hungary were bloody for both sides and despite Mongol victories they haven't conquered lands thus preventing from enlarging recruitment and logistical base.
Then when the Mongols returned and launched a second invasion, the East Europeans were prepared and defeated them.
The ones in Poland were not and "they haven't conquered lands" that's just absurd. They were there to raid and loot, conquering means just putting men into garrisons as they already had most of these lands.
@@clayerhun1597 the second invasion was just a poorly prepared Raid by a divided and weakened golden horde / Incomparable to the battle hardened professional Imperial army of the First invasion, The Fact that K&G did not even mention it above in the video proves it's irrelevance as an argument
A nice way to ignore all the preparations the kingdom of Hungary did that made life very hard for the mongols there.@@aburoach9268
@@aburoach9268 ? Why do you put a mention of KG as the deciding factor in a history debate? Also you're wrong, as they mentioned it, 12:36 and called it an 'invasion'. Sure, the second was just attempt, a much weaker one, facing a more prepared opponent, but calling it 'just a raid' isn't supported.
This documentary is extremely well produced narrated and thought provoking .
I belive a lot depended on single all powerful leaders and their decisions.
Thank you friends.
Recent Hungarian archeological findings have established that, in addition to some major battles and sieges, there were many pockets of resistance - ultimately reducing the number of Mongol troops which, together with the escape of King Bela IV and the survival of Hungarian forces in teritories in unoccupied Hungary (NB. NOT the entire country was occupied, but mostly its lowland central area/Great Plain).
00:12 The Mongols withdrew from Europe for unknown reasons.
02:23 Mongol withdrawal from Europe
04:36 Debate on the mystery continues 800 years later
07:04 The Mongols had different theories for leaving Europe
09:17 Mongols withdrew from Europe due to leadership issues and logistical challenges.
11:34 The Mongols' retreat from Europe in 1242 is controversial and possibly related to environmental factors.
14:00 Mongols faced major military challenges and may have withdrawn due to stretched forces.
16:19 The Mongols' withdrawal from Europe remains a mystery.
I have a question, when the Empire collapsed, large chunks ended up ruling entire regions, the Mughals ruled much of India, the Golden Horde ruled much of Eastern Europe, the Yuan Dynasty ruled China and Korea, and the Ilkhanate controlled Persia, assuming they got further, and conquered the Franks and the HRE would there have been a successor state resembling the Roman Empire?
The Holy Roman Khanate.
Fuck me. The khanate of Rome. We missed out.
@@rubendr6510 Yes, we did. After this Western European Khanate collapsed, could it have stayed together as one polity like China and Russia did? Imagine Germany, France and Italy united under one Khan! Me thinks Genghis would've approved.
"Bro, the food was better in China"
Brilliant as usual 👏🏻
Nicely researched and narrated as always it’s the leaves the question
I very much enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up
Great video keep it up you're doing amazing things 😁👍
I had only ever heard the "political" theory. As far as I knew, the idea that the Mongols left because of the death of the Khan was settled historical fact. Thank you for telling us about this debate.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@tiboruhrin4080nigga tf you laughing for
Thanks for your amazing content
“With no safe place left in Hungary, the royal family finally escaped to Austria to seek help from Duke Frederick, who arrested them, extorted an enormous ransom in gold and forced the king to cede three western counties to Austria.”
Hungary and his European neighbors..
This was SUPER INTERESTING! I love it when you critically engage with evidence!
Just found this channel by accident through Shorts, absolutely crazy that I recognized your voice @offydgg Devin, glad to see you're still around, I remember bingeing most of your series back on your original channel when I was younger. Trippy to hear your voice after so long, glad someone finally recognized your talent for Narration!
Thanks for the great content 👍🙏
Thanks for the good information in this video ⚔️
Newest excavations found hundreds of small fortifications in Hungary, and fierce battles there. I would put my wote to the 4th theory.
Love it from Mongolia 🇲🇳 As Mongol im this videos Mongol soldiers paint anime is so realistic great job guys 👍
Mongolians crack me up. You guys are the only people in the world that pride yourselves on the horrendous atrocities you comitted historically.
@@aweboatanithey respect their ancestors and their history, is it so strange? I am of Turko-Tatar origin and I understand Mongolians very well, although I do not like them
@@Karabulut96 yes it is strange. I respect my ancestors and history too, but I don't pride myself in my people's participation in the slave trade or situations where they sacked and burned cities or slaughtered Jewish people during the black plague.
@@aweboatani yeah but your ancestors were simply not as good at committing atrocities as the Mongols because you left survivors to complain and make you feel guilty to this day…..
Based
I think castles were probably a key factor in Poland and Hungary’s survival as they ensured that, despite Mongol victories in the field, any conquest would degenerate into a war of sieges and attrition (since in order to rule the country the mongols would have had to have taken many if not most or all of them). This would not have suited the mongols as not only would they have had to stop their massive horse herds for weeks or months on end for every siege (possibly eating all the forage), but the small and highly defendable castle proved to be remarkably difficult for them to crack. So if they wanted to conquer they would have to invest years and countless lives in a war of attrition with no guarantee of success and I don’t think they were willing to. Better to just take what money you could and retreat to your already vast empire.
Scared Pottah?
-random german to Batu Khan, 1242 a.D.
Lithuania did throw out Mongols from Eastern Europe at Battle of Blue Waters in 1362.
In fact, it is not a battle between two armies. The Mongols came to collect tributes, and their force number was small less than 1,000 men, but the Poles and Lithuanians refused to pay the tributes and fought and expelled the mongols
@@user-ic5ie9rj7v Grand Duchy of Lithuania invaded Kiev. Which was not annexed yet. Lithuanians were not paying tribute around Vilnius and Belarus region of GDL.
Very interesting and well-informed - thank you.
Wonderful episode
Really appreciate your mongol history content - from South Korea
They came to Europe and saw that China had way more stuff worth risking their lives for
You're right that the ecological explanation makes no sense - not only because of the reason which you've outlined, but their Hunic ancestors were actually, au contraire, quite fond of the Hungarian plains and the optimal ecosystem which it offered for horseback riding.
Also- citation on Subutai's biography? Cheers awesome content!
This was a good one! The Mongol videos are what first pulled me into this channel.
Glad the Shamanism angle was included, however brief. Those were times of true believers in that sort of thing being the norm.
I am a big fan of your channel and any thing to do with the "Great Khan!!"
This video is actually a very well measured historical account.
Fantastic work to the wonderful people at Kings and Generals.
I've noticed that the video quality has improved considerably.
I've always been interested in the Mongols, so this is a very welcome development.
What about population density? Perhaps the Mongols tried to occupy Hungary but found the structures of government they had used over people they conquered in the steppes didn't work so well in Hungary with its dense population and close neighbours, and they concluded occupying Europe would be more difficult than they had planned, so Batu retreated to what he knew he could hold: the steppe. A kind of add-on to the military weakness theory
Europe started building fortresses(and fortoficated bridges) since 814-1100 when Arabs, Vikings and Magyars attacked them and these saved them unlike another places of the world(except Japan).
@@laistvan2 Do you think the Chinese and e.g. the Assassins did not build fortresses?
@@eljanrimsa5843 Conquering a fortress for every 1000 inhabitants or 1 for every 100.000 makes a big difference. Just because there are less defenders doesnt make the siege much faster, almost all sieges in history are won by attricion. Where most people would make the sensible choice to surrender for a better outcome, Europeans have had the habit of resisting to the bitter end in case of sieges.
@@jemoedermeteensnor88 In the conquest of the Khwarazmian Empire alone the Mongols laid siege and conquered Samarkand and Bukhara, cities bigger and richer and better defended than any city in Europe at the time, and laid siege and destroyed two other cities Otrar and Gurganj so completely that only ruins in the desert remained. They killed around a million people each in their bloodiest conquests in Merv and Nishapur, also two cities which never regained their former size and importance.
@@eljanrimsa5843 But bigger cities are just worse to defend often. Rome practicly surrendered in a week while being by far the largest city in the world at that time. Also at Samarkland they fought on the open field and not at the city walls. Just because someone is not fit to command an army, doesnt mean no one is.
I love the way of Your presentation 😍 animation is realistic ✅
The Ecological Theory might fit why the Mongols never Finland. We never had grasslands, only forests. On the other hand it may also been due to economical reasons: there just weren't much to rob in poor Finland.
They have been neither North-Russia long but mostly steppe-zone and they were defeated also in Vietnam swamps...
Are you guys gonna make a video about manor lords when that game releases?
Another great Vid thx KnG
One interesting thing I've heard but can't confirm is that the composite/reflex bows of the nomadic people were unsuitable for much of Europe, since frequent rains/humidity damages them, so they're much better used in drylands.
Compelling analysis even better than your battle oriented programs. Thanks!
Got really excited thinking this was part of the alternative history series 😭😭
They tried lutefisk and fled in abject terror.
It didn't take months for them to deliver a message. Mongols could deliver a message from Mongolia to Eastern Europe in 10-14 days using the "Yam" system. The death of Ogodei Khan message got delivered to them pretty quick.
that feels like a quality analysis. worth paying in my opinion
A few decades later the Mongols did come back and were decisively defeated by Poland and Hungary. So... was their intent different in the 1240s than it was in the 1280s? What changed that would cause the Mongols to come back and try again in 40 years when Europe was better prepared to face them?
2 entirely different cases, those in 1280 were neighboring Cumans in fact, not the old imperial host.
after subotais and jebe's death, they werent the elite they used to be@@greatsarmatae
They pushed onwards at even greater challanges. How many times they suffered major casualties yet returned against Mamluks? Delhi? Vietnamese?
In Vietnam there was an even harder ecology, more casualties yet definitely tried more times at it than Europe.
In Europe they didnt even suffer a decisive defeat unlike other examples.
Long story short we will never know what their reasoning was.
@@randomuruk7230
You need to check the chronology.
Let’s get ready to dive in!
is it me or is the mic switching volumes? great video despite it !
Mistakes happen. Where did you notice it?
@@KingsandGenerals it was quite prevalent during the whole video i think it might be on my end. i just noticed a change when closing a program. :)
They learnt that they were approaching the land that would spawn the legend that is "Ronnie Pickering" and decided to cut their losses
y' kno whoi'am?
No, that is a bad explanation. In fact, they did better: made one of the men of this land their ambassador.
Just remembered the alternative mongol invasion History they made on Wizards and Warriors. What happened to that?
@@YuuSHiiiN it's not over, they plan to continue it, they're just spicing things up, to then the Reveal the true Imperial might of the mongols By sending another Huge Army group under Hulagu to support Batu's force, Instead of sending hulagu to the middle east Or at least that's my speculation
Mongols hated being static or complacent, sitting upon a conquered land to chill. They were always on the move, it was one of the aspects of their success. Indling in Hungary surrounded by enemies who are camped in strategic castles would give chances of preparation to their enemies and also after a while the tale that they are unstoppable would quickly start to break.
He just feels homesick! He misses mum's inner mongolia hotpot badly.
Can you imagine if you had to travel all the way back to the heartlands of Mongolia.. Start From the frontiers of Europe.. Knowing that for the next few weeks or months of continuous riding it would take to get back “home” in a reasonable amount of time..
Oww
But that is exactly what they do....
I think the Mongols could have conquered Europe if they really wanted, but like the Song who held out against the Mongols for 44 years it would have taken lots of time, resources, manpower and concerted effort, something they didn't have since Europe was at the far end of their Empire compared to China and political instability was already starting to set in.
They probably wouldn't have, as Europe had so many soldiers if you combined all kingdoms.
Also in the 2nd and 3rd invasion the Mongols had no chance even against Poland and Hungary
Quite intriguing. The idea of the "Great Khan death" had always seemed to me to be an established fact.
I think the biggest knowledge hole consists of what the Mongol decision-makers felt and thought about the Mongol Empire, its neighbors, and so on at the time of the Mongol retreat from Hungary in 1942. The timing of the Mongol retreat from Hungary in 1942 also makes this question more challenging. The point of time when Ogodei died was also the same point in time in which the Mongol Empire was experiencing a transition between being a single-throne empire and the breakup of the empire into four independent polities. Up to this time, the Mongol Empire was still held by a "glue" consisting of commanders and administrators appointed by Genghis, such as Sudodei. But once these officials faded from history, there was not much glue left to keep the empire in one piece.
You should do why the Timurids failed to last long
Another two mysteries about the Mongols:
1 What stopped the Mongols from actually trying their luck in the Indian subcontinent?
2 How far the Mongols can go into Africa if they managed to get through the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt and Syria?
They lost against delhi sultanate in india
@@user-uj2tk2tv3z I know that. But what I meant was what stopped them from launching another campaign, of course.
@@lerneanlion maybe they didn't wanted to risk further loses
They didn't like hot climate. They lost against Japan, Vietnam, Delhi, Mameluks and within 100 year disintegrated and almost disappeared from most part of Europe.
So very interesting❤
very noic
IIRC the 4-month travel time barrier was already debunked years ago. Plano-Carpini was WALKING across the steppes, and making lots of pit stops to gather intel. Alexander Nevsky made a round trip from Novgorod to Karakorum in less than 7 months in 1248, and he did this with a full entourage.
In any case, the idea that Ogedei died suddenly came from a particularly lurid story of him falling ill from alcohol poisoning after a debauched drinking bout with his companions. The more likely scenario is that he had fallen ill a few months before. This is visible from Chinese and Persian accounts on the rise of Toregene and her son Guyuk because both Persian and Chinese chroniclers generally agree that Toregene's main rival Moge Khatun (another of Ogodei's wives) is said to have started her regency in September or October of 1241, months before the generally accepted date of Ogodei's death. It is possible that the Mongol armies in Europe were already alerted that their Khagan was dying in the winter of 1241-1242 and were just waiting for spring to start their retreat.
One potential reason the entire army was withdrawn probably had something to do with the situation during Ogodei's own rise to power. At the time, thanks to Mongol custom, Tolui inherited his father's lands (Mongolia itself) and immediate vassals, causing him to end up with control of nearly 80% of the empire's military manpower base at the time. This situation only got corrected in 1232 after Tolui's death released those vassals from his control and allowed them to swear fealty to Ogodei. Most likely the Mongols simply wanted to ensure that the imperial army would be directly inherited by the khagan and not held under a rival prince.
I believe that what mongols did to the middle East and eastern Europe it totally destroyed everything and as mongols didn't much invade west Europe so they had the upper hand in developing their education and then renaissance bcoz the fall of political power of middle East it benefited western Europe and no much destruction of any historical work which also help them to keep there culture
@@maverick7291 ok your wrong coz the Arabs kept the ancient greek knowledge preserved bcoz the Christian in Europe at that time the pope saw the greek study as a source of paganism and you can see they gave a stiff resistance against the renaissance scientist and in 400s ce they destroyed lots of studies in Alexandria remove paganism . In bagdad they invented algorithm,optics and many more and also Arabic numerals that we use and also from 800 to 1200 until mongols they were dominant politically and to that you had to have nice technology in warfare as today usa has or the great Britain's as I mean nice institution like Oxford , Cambridge,Harvard or mit so what you are saying just on the basis of today what happened to the middle East not in the view of history
@@maverick7291 ok what about the fourth crusade the Latin sacked Constantinople and ancient greek Mathematician hespacia who was murdered by Christian mob and during renaissance Galileo was murdered and Kepler ran for his life from the catholic during the 30 years war and the Spanish inquisition killed the early modern medical doctors as study of human being was a sin and see the Arabs conquered the lands and they ruled for nearly 400 years including Spain what do you think any nomadic culture can defeat Byzantine and sassanid Empire both as they were the super power during that time and what are you saying is in context of modern days but from 700-1700 it was near East the most political and military dominated the middle East , North Africa , India, central Asia , some parts of Russia and Balkans and East Europe and it all possible because they had the nice institution and at that time west had also strong knight but couldn't maintain the dominant power and later got killed so what are you saying is on the basis of your narrow minded view of today middle East conditions
@@maverick7291and the first university was setup in Damascus in Syria by the Arabs so see the history and talk later and btw during the medieval era European saw and respected the middle eastern people and saw as there equal read history and read about the Jesuit missionaries writing is you don't believe me and see the monarchy remarks on that time on the middle East
@@maverick7291 al Azhar University Egypt 970 Ad and Fatima bint Muhammad Al-Fihriya Al-Qurashiya in Morocco in 9th century
@@maverick7291 yeah certainly usa was there in 9th century and Russia China Mexico Brazil were there to recognise it🤣🤣
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if it turned out they left only because they simply got bored?
No it would be stupid
There's a more plausible explanation that I came across at Quora: as the Mongols traversed Germany and Austria, they bumped into CASTLES, thousands of them. This was unseen elsewhere, not even in China. They realized they faced a major strategic challenge of having to capture them in a shortest possible time, which could NEVER be achieved: first, that would pin down and lock their forces in siege warfare leading to the lack of maneuver, second, thousands of miles from home bases, they would certainly lack food and starve, and finally, their foes would not sit back passively awaiting defeat but would certainly make alliances and try to strike back. Mongols' unparalleled warfare realism was something you can't deny them, so they must have sure realized they couldn't win this war. But because they were good war strategists, too, they made sure their enemies were confused and puzzled concerning their actual plans and objectives.
Indirectly, the aforementioned about castles was proved by what happened in Hungary following Bella's return: he undertook a major construction of CASTLES across all of Hungary to get prepared for a new Mongol invasion! This worked brilliantly 50 years later when Nogay invaded with his horde and was defeated
It is a common misconception, but in reality European castles were no better than muslim forts, which fell promptly - and nothing compared to the Chinese fortresses and walled cities. The main thing is that, simply, Mongols didn't care much about Europe as the centre of the world was definitely China: this is where fights concentrated, lasting close to a century before the Song finally submit. They could easily take those castles by using Chinese & Persian engineers and siege techniques, but didn't care enough to do so.
@@idum7177 I disagree, although the latter part of your comment is partially true. China was the center of the universe alright, but the Mongol realms were semi independent, all over the place, and their khans were eager to take the throne of the Great Khan in Karakorum most of all, and to that end they needed adequate resources of their own to fight brothers and uncles in the other realms who were likewise willing to claim the Karakorum throne. There was no point whatsoever risking the already available resources, except that the bets are they could be multiplied.
So, to mislay the army in a fight with doubtful gains would have been most unwise. I'm sure Batu's army would have been stuck somewhere amid Austria for months, but they should have set Hungary as their primary feeding base, at the very least. Then, it is up to speculation whether Batu would turn out to be an Attila before Catalaunian plains or Emir al Rahman before the battle of Tours in 732.
Lastly, Chinese town fortresses were fundamentally different from what European castles appeared. The Chinese fortresses were primarily huge strongholds numbering half a million people, with sizeable garrisons. However, the Mongols had no problem besieging one huge town for a year - that would take down any resistance in all the province altogether. Essentially, the Chinese towns were meant to be passive, in the hope the adversary would give up on it. But in Europe, the Mongols would have had no chance in view of the 3 points I laid out above. To conquer further West, they would have to found a permanent base close by such as Hungary. I wouldn't even dwell on whether Hungary was suited for such a base
@@nallyvaico Passive? The Chinese were masters in water engineering and the sieges involved things like diverting and counter-diverting rivers. This was a different league to what was technically possible in Europe at the time.
@@idum7177 Muslim forts were mainly just a high wall, they didnt incorporate a moat, they almost never had a second or a third layer of defence. So if the wall ever gets breached they were automaticly lost. They also never took advantage of the terrain, they might have build it on a hill, but hardly ever on a mountain with a small passage leading to it. Also muslim forts walls were designed so you had a big disadvantage against someone on the wall, while European forts were designed to be an adventegous position for the defender when someone would get on the wall. The only advantage the muslim castles had was the earlier use of round towers instead of square.
While I'm delighted to see so much content on the Mongol Empire, I think it would be good to return to the period of the great migrations/the last days of the Western Roman Empire and especially the politics and battles fought by the Hunnic Empire from the arrival of the Huns in eastern Europe until the fall of the sons of Attila.
The Europeans learned how to fight the mongols. Mongols didn’t have siege equipment and high masonry walls offered some protection
Bro it’s definitely Ogedei dying, come on..
One theory states that the compound bows that the Mongols carried, were delaminating as they entered wet environments. They were made of components of horse bone and horse sinew, bound together with a horse-based glue. they required a year to cure before they could be used. The presence of wet environments in both eastern Europe and Southeast China made using the bow problematic.
16:23 Batu should totally be played by Keanu Reeves in a Mongolian film
Maybe batu felt the mongol civil war is imminent after ogedai 's death, some mongols would have regularly shared insider info on what is going on in the far east by using falcons as messenger birds.
But they retreated before they heard the news.
@@shadowmaydawn no
And Batu settled down in Astrakhan and never went back to Mongolia neither Hungary 🤔
@@LL-ft6ed 9:50
They even destroyed cities in today montenegro and reached Adriatic but no one mentioned this that they went that far south
They went further than that. They met a Muslim army at Ain Jalut and got the shit kicked out of them.
@@joebloggs5318 im talking about europe but hey they did not have to worry about logistics