Yes you are liable for injury caused outside of the home invasion on almost every state. You have to be certain of your target and what’s behind it. Knowing the ballistics of your ammo and the penetration is highly important.
"Ball" ammo isn't made for dirt, it's made for opposition military, where the goal is to reduce tissue damage that a hollow-point round would create. Too, one should never get compacent about using HP ammo, because its use can easily lead a DA to conclude you're bloodthirsty. The goal, of course, is to put defenders in a catch 22.
So the person is not protected like police officers are? Police shot innocent people a lot and kill a few but rarely see the Judges for it or spend time behind bars.
I stagger my ammo from hollow point too fmg. This way if a criminal is wearing body armor the hollow point messes up the body armor and the fmg goes through the body armor if you hit close to where you shot on the first shot. But it's getting to the point where it's better to let the criminal kill you and your family instead of defending yourself and your family. Cuz prosecutor's want to throw the home owners in prison for defending there homes. I pray I never have to pull the trigger on someone breaking into my home cuz I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. What kind of message is prosecutor's and judge's sending to criminals out there? That's it's ok to rod, murder, and rape any home owner out there cuz if they defend there homes and lives they'll go to prison for it not the criminals. Right has become wrong and wrong has become right.
If I were injured or killed because a "good guy with a gun" missed the "bad guy with a gun" I would place the blame on the bad guy for creating that situation. Anyone who's ever shot a gun will know how easy it is to miss a target, especially when under stress.
I'd have to disagree. You take the responsibility, picking up a firearm, you are responsible for everything that happens to/with it while in your ownership. Sure, prosecute the criminal, but I'm at least suing the home defender, too.
@@elijahparker7655 I can see your point if you haven't been in stressful defensive situation. Those of us who have tend to see things a bit differently. It's easy to train for accuracy in a controlled environment, but it is hard to maintain accuracy when the threat is shooting back, and even harder when you're walking or running.
@@paulis7319 you make an assumption, sir. I have been. You're talking to someone who also has experience like that. We've been in similar situations. Maybe ask, before you accuse.
This is what the law *should* be. The party breaking a malum in se law should automatically be held liable, criminally and civilly, for any and all outcomes stemming from the event.
My father taught me gun safety at 8 years old. More fathers need to teach their young sons about guns but i understand that people today are from a different mold, not better either.
This is a great video topic and something that all responsible gun owners should be aware of. While defending your home is a fundamental right, it's important to understand that there are legal implications if your bullets end up injuring or killing someone else. It's essential to educate ourselves on the laws surrounding self-defense and to ensure that we are taking all necessary precautions to avoid putting ourselves and others in danger. Appreciate the effort into creating this video and providing valuable information to the community. Keep up the great work!
I made notes of which of the sightlines in my home are safest to shoot down in the event of an intruder for these reasons. I'd like to keep any rounds I fire within my property boundaries even if they miss the target.
Know your target and what’s beyond it. That is one of the four rules to gun safety for a reason as you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your firearm.
That is why I use my 45 acp primarily for home defense or my 300 blkout in subsonic rounds to ensure that any missed shots won’t be able to go through the walls & bricks of our house to effect anyone outside the home we can’t see while defending our property during a home invasion. Generally have 3 mags (sub Sonics, fmj, hollow points) at all times so that depending on what you’re up against you can use the correct ammo to minimize any possible collateral damages.
I live in California. I have my doubts that any bad guy will be held accountable. Prosecutors are looking for their win, not yours and may beat you until you're bankrupt.
CA is a stand-your-ground state only in terms of case law and jury instructions. There is no statute clearly spelling this out. California does, however, have a castle doctrine statute though it isn't referred to as such in the statute.
@@THall-vi8cp This is spot on. It’s a misnomer to say that “CA is a stand your ground state”. We have a castle doctrine law which is very different than a state like TX or FL who has stand your ground laws outside of a home. To say that CA is a typical stand your ground state is going to give people bad legal advice and bad ideas about using lethal self-defense.
Translation: Check your local laws and DA/Prosecutor style/party affiliations. Don’t run around yelling “Omg I’m going to jail! Hit the wrong guy!”. Do talk to your lawyer. Own a gun, find a lawyer you can depend on for the future.
Excellent discussion. Larry Vickers, may he rest in peace, has said, "Fast is fine. Accuracy is final." And was it Wyatt Earp who in his several duels was known for being fast at breaking leather and not the first to have shot? Quite possible to kid yourself standing still in your lane at the range and hitting accurately at, say, 10 yards or more, that you'll be that good in the adrenaline dump. Three suggestions. (1) Find live-fire outdoors training in which you are moving, shooting, moving, and shooting at numerous targets, skipping the no-shoot targets, and doing so against a timer. (2) There are a few training facilities that offer law enforcement grade virtual simulators. Best are the ones in which the trainee wears an electronic vest that delivers a harsh announcement that the trainee has been shot by the perpetrator. And (3) Very hard to find, are force-on-force scenarios using Simunitions, but it gets about as close as one can get to stress inoculation to an actual lethal force-on-force combat. The people who depend on you need you to be the best you can be. One more thing. Jeff Cooper has written something to the effect that you can own a guitar, but that doesn't make you a musician.
The first 4 rules are just the beginning. #5 moving parts. Dont get slide bite, dont touch the hot barrel, and be aware of the recoil path of your firearm. Dont let the scope hit you in the face. Dont pinch your hand when inserting the magazine. Keep others out of your muzzle blast area. #6 use the right ammo. This should help you avoid squibs hangfires, and Kentucky ballistic's catastrophy. Dont use old 50 bmg. dont shoot shotgun slugs through super tight chokes. #7 prevent unauthorized access to your firearms at all times. #8 secure your attachments. Bring bits and a driver. I spent a lot of ammo learning this... Before shooting, Make sure your scope is securely attched to your scope mount, and your scope mount is securely attached to your weapon. Dont assume it stayed tight since your last range trip. If you have an illumination feature, turn it off every time you set down the weapon. #9 if you arent sure ask for help #10 obey the posted range rules . Dont shoot green tip m855 inside. Have fun.
@@nathanhollingsworth413 Actually that may not be totally true, generally the average person buys critical defense ammo or similiar from the store, most law enforement (at least around my area) uses critical duty or similiar, I had no idea they used something different, I asked a cop friend and he confirmed it, the reason I asked him was because I bought 600 rounds of critical duty ammo and it says for law enforcement use only.
@@werberderber6209 Critical Defense was designed specifically for compact / sub-compact pistols (i.e., short barrels commonly used for personal defense) where as Critical Duty is designed for Full sized pistols (i.e. common standard duty / service pistols). The bullets themselves although somewhat different, are still very similar and the Critical Duty cartridges are loaded with a low flash powder to reduce muzzle flash so to help mitigate night time flash blindness. Regardless of that though, both are rounds designed to expand and dump all their energy in the body which goes back to what the original commenter states about the prosecutor asking because its a true damned if you do, damned if you don't if you have an anti-gun type prosecutor trying to convict you. No matter what ammo you use, they will use it against you.
@@werberderber6209 EDIT: Sorry, accidently replying to the wrong comment. I was thinking that I was replying to a reply to a different comment unrelated to this Critical Duty / Defense thread.
What about in a hotel room? Had a situation a month ago where someone called my room with a BS story on why i had to open the door. Acted like management. Saw through the peep hole it was at least one with a mask. Could have been more hiding and ready. I didn’t open the door and i had time to think and prepare mentally for it. Called front desk and they sent someone up. Dude left with no incident. I didn’t feel like going through law and stuff like that so went unreported. Alls i could think about was going through law suits and possible public exposure from this. What if i had to shoot and it went through the wall opposite of my rooms door? What if it’s drywall? Could be stone but idk that. That’s all i could think about.
Pausing at 1:30 because I want to check my answer. Anyway, if you are lawfully using lethal force (and that’s a whole discussion right there) and your bullet misses the intended target and hits and kills an innocent party, the person who caused you to use lethal force should be charged with felony murder. That said, you can be charged for almost anything in almost any situation. It’s best to put in the time and effort necessary to be able to hit what you’re shooting at.
I still remember a story from one of those first 48 type crime shows, where a guy in Detroit was illegally carrying, he and his friend run from gunfire and the 'good guy' (illegal carrying) shoots behind his shoulder in self defense as he runs. The friend went missing and later is found dead. The police had to inform him that it wasn't a 9mm bullet in his friend like that 'bad guy' was shooting, it was a .25 auto like the 'good guy' was shooting over his shoulder. The 'good guy' was sobbing and wanted to be locked up for it, but he was not charged with anything, the 'bad guy' who never landed a shot, was charged with murder.
Thanks for sharing your advice. Based on my concealed carry training I take responsibility for every round discharged from my handgun. It is something to take very seriously. Wait for a clean shot at the target and pull the trigger only when a good sight picture is acquired. A miss is likely to result in unintended consequences.
6:26 "...really cheap hollow point ammunition that is not good. It's not going to expand." Paul Harrell did a video on this. Basically, hollow point expansion is dependent on velocity. There are other factors, but velocity is key. Different bullet construction gives different results. It depends on velocity more than price. Watch the video, then test your ammo choice.
There is a lot of things people don't know, it's crazy how much the average gun owner doesn't know. But all you can do is inform them, glad y'all have these daily videos. However before i get more into the video about a projectile that hits someone who isn't your target, then yes you can be charged, it also depends on the state and local law. So go through the laws in your state and local area. Knowledge is power
@06:20 I glad you said that. Not all JHP are reliable expanders. Example, I used to load Montana Gold JHP ( nothing wrong with their bullets ) in a 45acp and I went out to the everglades with a few 50gal plastic drums of waters and never recovered any bullet. I should have just shot FMJ and had the same outcome. I load these at 800-1000fps and had zero recovered bullet. The only positive was I got a work out grabbing water to fill the 3 dozens or so of 50gal drums for my impromptu testing 😊
Oh heck yeah they can! You don't need to be a lawyer for this one! As an armed citizen *YOU* are responsible and held accountable for _EACH and EVERY_ bullet that comes out of your gun when you pull the trigger. Also, keep in mind that in some jurisdictions unless we're talking someone trying to commit intentional arson against your property with people inside of said property; you don't even legally have the right to shoot in defense of your property. Honestly, it is scary how many viewers have no clue what the laws are regarding the use of their legally owned firearms. I educated myself back before the Internet even literally existed. Nowadays it is so much easier to educated oneself, but clearly a significant number don't even bother.
@USCCA NOW HEAR THIS: If that very sad situation ever happened to me. (God forbid) I would fire any lawyer who was unable to convince a jury. That the damage from a round I fired was 100% the responsibility of the person that caused the round to be fired. I am 59 years old, and I have been carrying a firearm for over 20+ years. I hope I go to my grave never having had to take a life. My intention is to never have to. But if a criminal FORCES may hand. The ramifications rest souly on the criminal intent and the perpetrator with that intention. I will assume ZERO NONE NADA RESPONSIBILITY, PERIOD. It was a shot I hoped that I would never be FORCED to take. If I was on the jury of the righteous Intended shooter, i would find NOT guilty. NO MATTER WHAT THE LAW IS. Law is NOT even close to being on the same level as JUSTICE. NOW: if I sat on the jury for the criminal who set in motion, these chain of events. I would not only find that criminal guilty of little Suzies' death. ( DESPITE THE CRIMINAL NEVER EVEN TOUCHING THE FIREARM.) I would push for the harshest penalties imaginable. I would also push the jury for a written recommendation from the jury to the judge, not only about criminal sentences. But i would push for a formal decision of the jury. For the judge to find the criminal is civilly liable. For all his current and future wealth to go to the family of little suzy.
I have always been taught, and have as an instructor taught that you own every bullet that comes out of you firearm from trigger pull until final stoppage of the projectile. THIS IS WHY TRAINING IS ESSENTIAL
Every round has a lawyer attached to it, this should be common sense. This is the biggest reason you always see the discussion of over penetration in and around gun communities.
As a resident of Washington it breaks my heart and infuriated me that I can’t be a USCCA member in this state. I’m worried about why WA state wants to disarm people so badly
@@tlakins I didn't get much sleep last night, so it took me a minute to get what you were saying. If you don't like the neighborhood MOVE. I live in Nevada now. The more this state turns blue, the more I want to move back home to Missouri.
What will break your heart more is if you were allowed to be a member and made monthly payments the USCCA would NOT cover you in the event anyway. Read their policy.
Fragment style ammo doesn't penetrate through walls and hit strangers yet it's the ammo that gun grabbers like to ban first. It's like they want random deaths to occur.
it also tends to be terrible defense ammo as it tends to appear to detonate at surface levels of tissue and not go deep enough to hit vitals but it does make for a very impressive and painful looking crater. Many testers have proven that any ammo that's worth it to use for defense is going through all common construction materials.
@@Talishar Your speaking of a very specific type and brand of ammo. The government wouldn't be too worried about it and banning it if that were true for all of it.
@USCCA *serious question!* Will my USCCA coverage cover me, even if acting in what is assumed lawful self-defense, but I am charged by police. Because I've heard that USCCA will NOT cover me if I am charged, and even demand repayment of any services.
@@peterv1318 it was the reason I avoided the NRA's policy, and got USCCA, because years ago, I believe they originally stated they would cover even if charged. Those terms may have changed around the time their plans and maximum coverage rates changed. With no response, it's looking like I'm going to be looking elsewhere. It'd be far too easy for USCCA to screw me, when it's far too easy for police to falsely charge me.
4:21 As a citizen in California, how do I go about finding this training which keeps home defense and our version of Castle Doctrine in check? Said description prosecutors who do not conceive home owners to be gun owners, are also easy to find in the general population here..
I have a .22 hand gun. I shoot hollow points all the time with it. I guarantee you even being a hollow point those little bullets dont expand. Tried many times with the gel test. Great penetration but no expansion. I get about 14 inches into a gel ballistic block so I know that little .22 has the capability of shooting right through a person and keep on traveling. Wicked little rounds.
You don’t know California Jurors, lol? They are the ones to worry about if your case goes to court. Something the Sheriff of our county warned us about as he issued our CCWs.
That would be the trifecta of a bad dream: a home invasion, me having to defend myself, and then hitting an unintended target. Thanks for the banter, guys. It makes training even more important to me that ever.
On one side, you are responsible for every bullet. On the other, I've seen enough videos on here of defensive ammo going through multiple drywall layers with lethal force, where you could hit your target and potentially have over penetration that causes property damage or bodily harm to a bystander. I would hate to think the charges would hit the homeowners rather than be tacked on the criminal's charges. Would still feel incredibly horrible regardless.
You are absolutely right! Much of the ammunition people are using today is actually too powerful for home defense, and can easily go right through walls and intruders, and kill innocent bystanders at quite a distance. Out in the country it's not such a big problem, but in a city it's a big risk. People need to think about this.
Both should be charged. "Know your target and what lies beyond it" is standard. If I'm pulling my gun I know it's going to hit and zero chance of collateral damage to bystanders. If I accidentally hit someone I'd put the cuffs on myself, if I was the one who got it then I'm pressing charges.
The ammunition you use in self defense is important. For instance if you use Hornady Critical Duty ammo, it is designed to be more powerful and will more likely pass through and may strike bystanders where Hornady Critical Defense is designed for maximum expansion at a lower power level to stop within body mass so is less likely to pass through.
The best weapon for home defense (disclaimer, I read while serving as in law enforcement) is a 410 with an 18 inch barrel using #4 buckshot. It will knock a person down without passing through walls and such. That’s what I read. Never had to try it. Just what I read.
Jacketed hollow point with a an aluminum rod in the center is my go to round for the 9x18, the round hits, expands and the rod keeps anything from blocking the hollow from doing it's job...
I was taught that doesn’t matter the situation, you need to be aware of your backstop. Don’t assume that all the bullets fired from your firearm will hit the intended target and what’s behind that target in case that I missed.
Liberty civil defense. If you hit the bad guy it doesn’t go through. People say it only goes 7 to 8 inches deep yes but it looks like a cheery bomb went off at that 7 to 8 inch mark. People say they killed 250 pound hogs one shot with this 9mm ammo.
For what its worth, a few retired police friends suggested a 12g shotgun with a firing order of 2 bird shot, 2 buck shot and finally 2 slugs. Hopefully none of us ever have to deply it.
@@joedutton3413 Get some training! Only idiots mix loads. You have no idea beforehand which load you need when. Professionals load buckshot only and have slugs separately if needed, such as on the side.
@@charliefoxtrot5001 first off i use magazines and drums so to load one as i would like in case its needed is my thing. If i need to stop an intruder this will do it. Btw I’ve probably trained longer than you have been breathing.
@@joedutton3413 UA-cam has either hidden your original post or you deleted it. Anyway, mixing ammo in the same magazine (tubular, box, drum, etc.) is for amateurs. If you do not know why, then you lack training. It is as simple as that.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERY SINGLE ROUND FIRED, EVEN THE ONES THE GO THROUGH YOUR INTENDED TARGET,AND CONTINUES ON TO HIT AND OR Damage DONE TO ANYTHING ELSE, Including People..
Yes you are accountable so be tactical always look beyond becouse if you are justified and some one elder dies you are liable and you have to live with your decision
It also depends on whether or not you have a badge. We all know skidish cops who mag dump indiscriminately would never be responsible for collateral casualties.
So on the use hallow point not fmj or ball ammo what would happen if you have no choice but to use fmj/ball ammo due to ccw laws in your area like in sanfran ca or passing through said area and you're carrying hallow points?
There are so many variables out there that there is basically no right answer. One firearm carries hollow points, the other carries ball. These decisions are made on performance. But everyone has things to say till they come up on a situation. Then it's not the firearm but ones mental control. I have run into this situation and as I have mentally gone through situations as much as one goes to the shooting range, I made the right decision for me in that particular situation. One does not have much time to think in many situations requiring one to shoot. My basic mantra is to not shoot. Until forced to and I have never been put in that situation thankfully.
I have a SW sd9mm for some reason this pistol does not like hallow points. It jams up every other round. The mouth of the hallow points jam's right into the end of the ramp / slide . Does anyone have any advice ❓❓
U.S.C.C.A. contract does NOT cover if the subject is ARRESTED even for bogus charges to sop to the mob. And, the subject may have to payback any expenses already paid. It might only cover Civil Lawsuits.
There’s one thing you can do for people that watch your UA-cam videos that would help gun owners immensely. Basically, every time your attorney, Tom, utters the words “check your local listings“ it makes your videos useless. None of us can understand what the heck our local listings say because we are not attorneys. How about YOU check each states’ local listing and provide your viewers with that information. You obviously have attorneys in each state which could read the law and provide the information to your staff who would, inturn, create an Excel spreadsheet by state, and enter a Y for yes, or an N for no, after each state. This would tell your viewers if the subject being discussed applied, or did not apply, to the state they were currently living in. Then post the list at the end of your video. It certainly would make your viewers watch till the end. This would help gun owners understand and obey the law, as well as increase USCCA membership. How about taking a major step in helping your viewers understand their “local listing” law instead of throwing their hands up in frustration every time they hear those totally useless words.
NY doesn't allow hollow point so how does your default nse stand up if you hit a perp and that bullet goes through and hits so.e one else? Does the govt and the criminal now pick up the tab?
In some states yes, in some states no, in some states it depends on whether you were being blatantly reckless. I’m sure personal injury lawsuits are a near guarantee if you harm an innocent bystander, and win or lose, going through a lawsuit sucks.
Not here. You are responsible for every round you fire and can be held criminally liable for the injury or death of an innocent third party during the use of defense and deadly force
Hahahahahaha @ that question😂😂. The innocent person suppose to just be like "im bleeding out but at least they protected their personal belongings. I'll cover my own medical expenses" 😂😂😂
If you shoot at and hit the bad guy, but the bullet passes through him and hits someone else, you may not be charged criminally. But there may be civil issues you need to deal with.
It depends on what state you reside in. Liberal DA’s, police and prosecutors will say something totally different than red states. I’m in a blue state and I can see a stark difference than red states when it comes to gun related charges for very very similar gun cases
Your WEAPON - YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE! It is incredibly INAPPROPRIATE to use words which describe POLITICAL AFFILIATION and stance ,and such as it is both illogical, unacceptable,and irrelevant .
Want more Tom Grieve Content? Check out his channel here: www.youtube.com/@AttyTomGrieve
Yes you are liable for injury caused outside of the home invasion on almost every state. You have to be certain of your target and what’s behind it. Knowing the ballistics of your ammo and the penetration is highly important.
But the Pres told me to buy a shotgun - are there hollow point slugs? 😅🤔
"Ball" ammo isn't made for dirt, it's made for opposition military, where the goal is to reduce tissue damage that a hollow-point round would create. Too, one should never get compacent about using HP ammo, because its use can easily lead a DA to conclude you're bloodthirsty. The goal, of course, is to put defenders in a catch 22.
So the person is not protected like police officers are? Police shot innocent people a lot and kill a few but rarely see the Judges for it or spend time behind bars.
I stagger my ammo from hollow point too fmg. This way if a criminal is wearing body armor the hollow point messes up the body armor and the fmg goes through the body armor if you hit close to where you shot on the first shot. But it's getting to the point where it's better to let the criminal kill you and your family instead of defending yourself and your family. Cuz prosecutor's want to throw the home owners in prison for defending there homes. I pray I never have to pull the trigger on someone breaking into my home cuz I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. What kind of message is prosecutor's and judge's sending to criminals out there? That's it's ok to rod, murder, and rape any home owner out there cuz if they defend there homes and lives they'll go to prison for it not the criminals. Right has become wrong and wrong has become right.
I’ve always been taught that I’m responsible for every bullet that is fired from my gun.
Couldn’t say it any better
Same here, brother.
Absolutely, you have to account for every shot you fire
@@jerryreed9163 Not if you're a pig cop. They get a free pass on killing people.
Same here.
"Every bullet you fire may have an attorney attached to it."- Clint Smith
That's how I remember it.
Words to live by.
you are right just remove the (MAY).
yes so correct . Criminally you might not be charged, but civil liability is much easier to win.
@@jumpercable20 And replace it with (WILL)!!
In my CCW class, the 3rd cardinal rule was, "Be aware of the situation behind your target."
Should have been the 4th
Same here, know your target and what's beyond it.
You can’t always know what’s beyond a boundary or the trajectory the bullets may take..
@@speedlimit6869 Exactly, that's why you don't choose to engage if you choose carry!
Real life things move quickly. It’s difficult to identify a potential hazard behind the line of fire while focusing on the bad guy.
If I were injured or killed because a "good guy with a gun" missed the "bad guy with a gun" I would place the blame on the bad guy for creating that situation. Anyone who's ever shot a gun will know how easy it is to miss a target, especially when under stress.
I'd have to disagree. You take the responsibility, picking up a firearm, you are responsible for everything that happens to/with it while in your ownership. Sure, prosecute the criminal, but I'm at least suing the home defender, too.
@@elijahparker7655 I can see your point if you haven't been in stressful defensive situation. Those of us who have tend to see things a bit differently. It's easy to train for accuracy in a controlled environment, but it is hard to maintain accuracy when the threat is shooting back, and even harder when you're walking or running.
@@paulis7319 you make an assumption, sir. I have been. You're talking to someone who also has experience like that. We've been in similar situations. Maybe ask, before you accuse.
This is what the law *should* be. The party breaking a malum in se law should automatically be held liable, criminally and civilly, for any and all outcomes stemming from the event.
It has to be both but to a lesser degree for an accidental hit
My father taught me gun safety at 8 years old. More fathers need to teach their young sons about guns but i understand that people today are from a different mold, not better either.
This is a great video topic and something that all responsible gun owners should be aware of. While defending your home is a fundamental right, it's important to understand that there are legal implications if your bullets end up injuring or killing someone else. It's essential to educate ourselves on the laws surrounding self-defense and to ensure that we are taking all necessary precautions to avoid putting ourselves and others in danger. Appreciate the effort into creating this video and providing valuable information to the community. Keep up the great work!
I made notes of which of the sightlines in my home are safest to shoot down in the event of an intruder for these reasons. I'd like to keep any rounds I fire within my property boundaries even if they miss the target.
The thumbnail make me think the video was about whether it was legal or not to carry on your hip while grilling hot dogs LMAO 🤣🤣
It’s the ol no grilling and killing rule.
Me too
Me too😂😂😂😂
Know your target and what’s beyond it. That is one of the four rules to gun safety for a reason as you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your firearm.
That is why I use my 45 acp primarily for home defense or my 300 blkout in subsonic rounds to ensure that any missed shots won’t be able to go through the walls & bricks of our house to effect anyone outside the home we can’t see while defending our property during a home invasion. Generally have 3 mags (sub Sonics, fmj, hollow points) at all times so that depending on what you’re up against you can use the correct ammo to minimize any possible collateral damages.
I live in California. I have my doubts that any bad guy will be held accountable. Prosecutors are looking for their win, not yours and may beat you until you're bankrupt.
California knowingly released murderers from prison in 2020.... It's clear what Sacramento is doing.
Keep in mind California is a stand your ground state , so you don’t have to retreat.
@GOONG _Z i just found out about that and i live here. Its crazy!
CA is a stand-your-ground state only in terms of case law and jury instructions. There is no statute clearly spelling this out.
California does, however, have a castle doctrine statute though it isn't referred to as such in the statute.
@@THall-vi8cp This is spot on. It’s a misnomer to say that “CA is a stand your ground state”. We have a castle doctrine law which is very different than a state like TX or FL who has stand your ground laws outside of a home. To say that CA is a typical stand your ground state is going to give people bad legal advice and bad ideas about using lethal self-defense.
Translation: Check your local laws and DA/Prosecutor style/party affiliations.
Don’t run around yelling “Omg I’m going to jail! Hit the wrong guy!”. Do talk to your lawyer. Own a gun, find a lawyer you can depend on for the future.
It"s not party afilliation. It's about power and political ambitions.
Excellent discussion. Larry Vickers, may he rest in peace, has said, "Fast is fine. Accuracy is final." And was it Wyatt Earp who in his several duels was known for being fast at breaking leather and not the first to have shot? Quite possible to kid yourself standing still in your lane at the range and hitting accurately at, say, 10 yards or more, that you'll be that good in the adrenaline dump. Three suggestions. (1) Find live-fire outdoors training in which you are moving, shooting, moving, and shooting at numerous targets, skipping the no-shoot targets, and doing so against a timer. (2) There are a few training facilities that offer law enforcement grade virtual simulators. Best are the ones in which the trainee wears an electronic vest that delivers a harsh announcement that the trainee has been shot by the perpetrator. And (3) Very hard to find, are force-on-force scenarios using Simunitions, but it gets about as close as one can get to stress inoculation to an actual lethal force-on-force combat. The people who depend on you need you to be the best you can be. One more thing. Jeff Cooper has written something to the effect that you can own a guitar, but that doesn't make you a musician.
The first 4 rules are just the beginning.
#5 moving parts. Dont get slide bite, dont touch the hot barrel, and be aware of the recoil path of your firearm. Dont let the scope hit you in the face. Dont pinch your hand when inserting the magazine. Keep others out of your muzzle blast area.
#6 use the right ammo. This should help you avoid squibs hangfires, and Kentucky ballistic's catastrophy. Dont use old 50 bmg. dont shoot shotgun slugs through super tight chokes.
#7 prevent unauthorized access to your firearms at all times.
#8 secure your attachments. Bring bits and a driver. I spent a lot of ammo learning this... Before shooting, Make sure your scope is securely attched to your scope mount, and your scope mount is securely attached to your weapon. Dont assume it stayed tight since your last range trip. If you have an illumination feature, turn it off every time you set down the weapon.
#9 if you arent sure ask for help
#10 obey the posted range rules . Dont shoot green tip m855 inside.
Have fun.
Prosecuter: "Why did you shoot my client with deadly hollow points?" Me: "Because the box read *SELF DEFENSE AMMO* on it.
My answer is . “Because it’s the same ammo the local sheriffs dept uses
@@nathanhollingsworth413 Actually that may not be totally true, generally the average person buys critical defense ammo or similiar from the store, most law enforement (at least around my area) uses critical duty or similiar, I had no idea they used something different, I asked a cop friend and he confirmed it, the reason I asked him was because I bought 600 rounds of critical duty ammo and it says for law enforcement use only.
@@werberderber6209 Critical Defense was designed specifically for compact / sub-compact pistols (i.e., short barrels commonly used for personal defense) where as Critical Duty is designed for Full sized pistols (i.e. common standard duty / service pistols). The bullets themselves although somewhat different, are still very similar and the Critical Duty cartridges are loaded with a low flash powder to reduce muzzle flash so to help mitigate night time flash blindness.
Regardless of that though, both are rounds designed to expand and dump all their energy in the body which goes back to what the original commenter states about the prosecutor asking because its a true damned if you do, damned if you don't if you have an anti-gun type prosecutor trying to convict you. No matter what ammo you use, they will use it against you.
@@CJ-ty8sv You might be right, I will have to go back and investigate again.
@@werberderber6209 EDIT:
Sorry, accidently replying to the wrong comment. I was thinking that I was replying to a reply to a different comment unrelated to this Critical Duty / Defense thread.
What about in a hotel room? Had a situation a month ago where someone called my room with a BS story on why i had to open the door. Acted like management. Saw through the peep hole it was at least one with a mask. Could have been more hiding and ready. I didn’t open the door and i had time to think and prepare mentally for it. Called front desk and they sent someone up. Dude left with no incident. I didn’t feel like going through law and stuff like that so went unreported. Alls i could think about was going through law suits and possible public exposure from this. What if i had to shoot and it went through the wall opposite of my rooms door? What if it’s drywall? Could be stone but idk that. That’s all i could think about.
Just think logically you're not allowed to injure or kill somebody that is innocent it's morally wrong stop thinking like a jackass
Always use the security lock in a motel room. Do not open the door unless you know the knocker. You have paid for privacy.
Pausing at 1:30 because I want to check my answer. Anyway, if you are lawfully using lethal force (and that’s a whole discussion right there) and your bullet misses the intended target and hits and kills an innocent party, the person who caused you to use lethal force should be charged with felony murder. That said, you can be charged for almost anything in almost any situation. It’s best to put in the time and effort necessary to be able to hit what you’re shooting at.
I still remember a story from one of those first 48 type crime shows, where a guy in Detroit was illegally carrying, he and his friend run from gunfire and the 'good guy' (illegal carrying) shoots behind his shoulder in self defense as he runs. The friend went missing and later is found dead. The police had to inform him that it wasn't a 9mm bullet in his friend like that 'bad guy' was shooting, it was a .25 auto like the 'good guy' was shooting over his shoulder. The 'good guy' was sobbing and wanted to be locked up for it, but he was not charged with anything, the 'bad guy' who never landed a shot, was charged with murder.
Exactly.
Thanks for sharing your advice. Based on my concealed carry training I take responsibility for every round discharged from my handgun. It is something to take very seriously. Wait for a clean shot at the target and pull the trigger only when a good sight picture is acquired.
A miss is likely to result in unintended consequences.
6:26 "...really cheap hollow point ammunition that is not good. It's not going to expand." Paul Harrell did a video on this. Basically, hollow point expansion is dependent on velocity. There are other factors, but velocity is key. Different bullet construction gives different results. It depends on velocity more than price. Watch the video, then test your ammo choice.
Because what expands when fired from one gun may not expand when fired from another length barrel.
Yup, and most are tested using carbine length barrels to achieve proper velocity to expand.
Paul's videos are very informative.
There is a lot of things people don't know, it's crazy how much the average gun owner doesn't know. But all you can do is inform them, glad y'all have these daily videos. However before i get more into the video about a projectile that hits someone who isn't your target, then yes you can be charged, it also depends on the state and local law.
So go through the laws in your state and local area. Knowledge is power
Thanks for navigating us through all the "depends" to help us be better educated.
@06:20 I glad you said that.
Not all JHP are reliable expanders. Example, I used to load Montana Gold JHP ( nothing wrong with their bullets ) in a 45acp and I went out to the everglades with a few 50gal plastic drums of waters and never recovered any bullet.
I should have just shot FMJ and had the same outcome. I load these at 800-1000fps and had zero recovered bullet. The only positive was I got a work out grabbing water to fill the 3 dozens or so of 50gal drums for my impromptu testing 😊
criminal: never fires pointed wepan, walks.......Citizen: fires in self defense, charged. Change my mind
Hell, they've walked for murdering people.
NAILED IT
Oh heck yeah they can! You don't need to be a lawyer for this one! As an armed citizen *YOU* are responsible and held accountable for _EACH and EVERY_ bullet that comes out of your gun when you pull the trigger. Also, keep in mind that in some jurisdictions unless we're talking someone trying to commit intentional arson against your property with people inside of said property; you don't even legally have the right to shoot in defense of your property. Honestly, it is scary how many viewers have no clue what the laws are regarding the use of their legally owned firearms. I educated myself back before the Internet even literally existed. Nowadays it is so much easier to educated oneself, but clearly a significant number don't even bother.
I fully expect that "in depends" clip in every vid going forward now
Lol. Tom loves saying that, we don’t know why 😅
@USCCA
NOW HEAR THIS:
If that very sad situation ever happened to me. (God forbid)
I would fire any lawyer who was unable to convince a jury. That the damage from a round I fired was 100% the responsibility of the person that caused the round to be fired.
I am 59 years old, and I have been carrying a firearm for over 20+ years. I hope I go to my grave never having had to take a life. My intention is to never have to. But if a criminal FORCES may hand.
The ramifications rest souly on the criminal intent and the perpetrator with that intention.
I will assume ZERO NONE NADA RESPONSIBILITY, PERIOD.
It was a shot I hoped that I would never be FORCED to take.
If I was on the jury of the righteous Intended shooter, i would find NOT guilty. NO MATTER WHAT THE LAW IS.
Law is NOT even close to being on the same level as JUSTICE.
NOW: if I sat on the jury for the criminal who set in motion, these chain of events. I would not only find that criminal guilty of little Suzies' death. ( DESPITE THE CRIMINAL NEVER EVEN TOUCHING THE FIREARM.)
I would push for the harshest penalties imaginable. I would also push the jury for a written recommendation from the jury to the judge, not only about criminal sentences. But i would push for a formal decision of the jury. For the judge to find the criminal is civilly liable. For all his current and future wealth to go to the family of little suzy.
I have always been taught, and have as an instructor taught that you own every bullet that comes out of you firearm from trigger pull until final stoppage of the projectile.
THIS IS WHY TRAINING IS ESSENTIAL
Every round has a lawyer attached to it, this should be common sense. This is the biggest reason you always see the discussion of over penetration in and around gun communities.
As a resident of Washington it breaks my heart and infuriated me that I can’t be a USCCA member in this state. I’m worried about why WA state wants to disarm people so badly
Wow. I didn't know that. Sorry man.
Washington doesn't want anyone to be able to resist what they do _next._
That's what U-haul and Ryder vans are for. I used to live in Washington state. Now live in gun friendly South Dakota.
@@tlakins I didn't get much sleep last night, so it took me a minute to get what you were saying. If you don't like the neighborhood MOVE. I live in Nevada now. The more this state turns blue, the more I want to move back home to Missouri.
What will break your heart more is if you were allowed to be a member and made monthly payments the USCCA would NOT cover you in the event anyway. Read their policy.
Living in California we are at a disadvantage to begin with! But I know I am responsible for every round I shoot
Fragment style ammo doesn't penetrate through walls and hit strangers yet it's the ammo that gun grabbers like to ban first. It's like they want random deaths to occur.
Because then they can go "See! See! We need to ban all guns! They are too dangerous for regular people!".
it also tends to be terrible defense ammo as it tends to appear to detonate at surface levels of tissue and not go deep enough to hit vitals but it does make for a very impressive and painful looking crater. Many testers have proven that any ammo that's worth it to use for defense is going through all common construction materials.
@@Talishar Your speaking of a very specific type and brand of ammo. The government wouldn't be too worried about it and banning it if that were true for all of it.
New Jersey has entered the chat.
@@BigJon410 - New Jersey outlawed hollow points saying they go through bullet proof vests.
Even if the DA doesn’t press criminal charges, your neighbor can go after you in civil litigation.
Maybe, maybe not.
@USCCA *serious question!* Will my USCCA coverage cover me, even if acting in what is assumed lawful self-defense, but I am charged by police.
Because I've heard that USCCA will NOT cover me if I am charged, and even demand repayment of any services.
I been hearing this also. That scares me! Because 80% of the time you will be charged.
@@peterv1318 it was the reason I avoided the NRA's policy, and got USCCA, because years ago, I believe they originally stated they would cover even if charged. Those terms may have changed around the time their plans and maximum coverage rates changed. With no response, it's looking like I'm going to be looking elsewhere. It'd be far too easy for USCCA to screw me, when it's far too easy for police to falsely charge me.
4:21
As a citizen in California, how do I go about finding this training which keeps home defense and our version of Castle Doctrine in check? Said description prosecutors who do not conceive home owners to be gun owners, are also easy to find in the general population here..
IMO, there is no “it depends” there will always be a prosecutor trying to make a name for themselves.
I have a .22 hand gun. I shoot hollow points all the time with it. I guarantee you even being a hollow point those little bullets dont expand. Tried many times with the gel test. Great penetration but no expansion. I get about 14 inches into a gel ballistic block so I know that little .22 has the capability of shooting right through a person and keep on traveling. Wicked little rounds.
Imagine someone's mood dictating whether or not you spend time in prison😭
You don’t know California Jurors, lol? They are the ones to worry about if your case goes to court. Something the Sheriff of our county warned us about as he issued our CCWs.
"The ultimate 'It depends' ". LOVE IT!
This is way we need stand your ground laws in all states
Frangible is great for apartments and townhomes where there are multiple dwellings.
This is why I really like the Glaser Safety Slugs.
I use to carry those..I heard I'm not allowed to use those anymore
For defense ammo I use Hornaday JHP. At the range Federal FMJ.
I’m going with yes.
I've always told people "every bullet that leaves the barrel has a lawyer attached to it." So make sure you're accurate.
The person invading your home should be charged with any damage done by you when they forced you to defend yourself from them.
I am a STRONG believer in gun control ( hitting what you are aiming at)
That would be the trifecta of a bad dream: a home invasion, me having to defend myself, and then hitting an unintended target. Thanks for the banter, guys. It makes training even more important to me that ever.
On one side, you are responsible for every bullet. On the other, I've seen enough videos on here of defensive ammo going through multiple drywall layers with lethal force, where you could hit your target and potentially have over penetration that causes property damage or bodily harm to a bystander. I would hate to think the charges would hit the homeowners rather than be tacked on the criminal's charges. Would still feel incredibly horrible regardless.
You are absolutely right! Much of the ammunition people are using today is actually too powerful for home defense, and can easily go right through walls and intruders, and kill innocent bystanders at quite a distance. Out in the country it's not such a big problem, but in a city it's a big risk. People need to think about this.
Both should be charged. "Know your target and what lies beyond it" is standard. If I'm pulling my gun I know it's going to hit and zero chance of collateral damage to bystanders. If I accidentally hit someone I'd put the cuffs on myself, if I was the one who got it then I'm pressing charges.
Please check your Hollow point ammunition to make sure it will expand in your length barrel!
i have a 1858 Remington and i make the ball very soft lead or it shoots 45 long colt which in the civil war was the worse in wounds
As a LEO we were trained that we are responsible for every bullet fired. I'm a USCCA member just in case IT DEPENDS. Train, train, train.
The 4th rule in basic firearms rules says know your target and what's beyond your target.
And you know this under a fight or flight situation? Easy said.
Yes absolutely, you own that bullet and any damage that it does
The ammunition you use in self defense is important. For instance if you use Hornady Critical Duty ammo, it is designed to be more powerful and will more likely pass through and may strike bystanders where Hornady Critical Defense is designed for maximum expansion at a lower power level to stop within body mass so is less likely to pass through.
The best weapon for home defense (disclaimer, I read while serving as in law enforcement) is a 410 with an 18 inch barrel using #4 buckshot. It will knock a person down without passing through walls and such. That’s what I read. Never had to try it. Just what I read.
Jacketed hollow point with a an aluminum rod in the center is my go to round for the 9x18, the round hits, expands and the rod keeps anything from blocking the hollow from doing it's job...
What brand
I was taught that doesn’t matter the situation, you need to be aware of your backstop. Don’t assume that all the bullets fired from your firearm will hit the intended target and what’s behind that target in case that I missed.
Think 90 gr for 9mm might just be good for public carrying. I’d be more afraid to hit more than the bad guy
Liberty civil defense. If you hit the bad guy it doesn’t go through. People say it only goes 7 to 8 inches deep yes but it looks like a cheery bomb went off at that 7 to 8 inch mark. People say they killed 250 pound hogs one shot with this 9mm ammo.
For what its worth, a few retired police friends suggested a 12g shotgun with a firing order of 2 bird shot, 2 buck shot and finally 2 slugs. Hopefully none of us ever have to deply it.
I use OO and slugs every other one. If your going to shoot , shoot to kill believe me if they have a gun they wont hesitate to shoot and kill you.
@@joedutton3413 Get some training! Only idiots mix loads. You have no idea beforehand which load you need when. Professionals load buckshot only and have slugs separately if needed, such as on the side.
@@charliefoxtrot5001 first off i use magazines and drums so to load one as i would like in case its needed is my thing. If i need to stop an intruder this will do it. Btw I’ve probably trained longer than you have been breathing.
@@joedutton3413 UA-cam has either hidden your original post or you deleted it. Anyway, mixing ammo in the same magazine (tubular, box, drum, etc.) is for amateurs. If you do not know why, then you lack training. It is as simple as that.
Never mix ammo like that. 00 buck is what most military and law enforcement use. Slugs are for breaking down doors.
I was always taught be aware of beyond your target you are responsible for every bullet fired from your gun.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERY SINGLE ROUND FIRED, EVEN THE ONES THE GO THROUGH YOUR INTENDED TARGET,AND CONTINUES ON TO HIT AND OR Damage DONE TO ANYTHING ELSE, Including People..
Yes you are accountable so be tactical always look beyond becouse if you are justified and some one elder dies you are liable and you have to live with your decision
6:21 I agree if I had to pull any mag out with ball ammo in it that’s it’s a problem seriously
that is why I always said Remember Bullets will keep going till it hit something or Runs out of Energy. so always Remember that.
Yes, learned that at CCW class
I recommend Pilgrim Ammunition! Designed specifically for self-defense situations!!
It all depends on who your DA in your area. If it's Bragg and your the Innocent, your screwed. If your the Criminal, your scott free.
It also depends on whether or not you have a badge. We all know skidish cops who mag dump indiscriminately would never be responsible for collateral casualties.
Don't overlook the civil trial from the surviving family.
Thank you for specifically bringing up the M1 Garand!
Would it be better to carry FMJ with a 380? I'm currently using Critical Defense
I haven’t watched yet, but my guess is reckless endangerment. Edit to add It Depends.
Very informative discussion. Thank you.
ULTIMATE DEPENDS UNLEASHED
LEOs must held equally criminally accountable as well
So on the use hallow point not fmj or ball ammo what would happen if you have no choice but to use fmj/ball ammo due to ccw laws in your area like in sanfran ca or passing through said area and you're carrying hallow points?
Civilly liable, not criminally liable, for manslaughter
Your subtitles..... charges can be FILLED? *filed
There are so many variables out there that there is basically no right answer. One firearm carries hollow points, the other carries ball. These decisions are made on performance. But everyone has things to say till they come up on a situation. Then it's not the firearm but ones mental control. I have run into this situation and as I have mentally gone through situations as much as one goes to the shooting range, I made the right decision for me in that particular situation. One does not have much time to think in many situations requiring one to shoot. My basic mantra is to not shoot. Until forced to and I have never been put in that situation thankfully.
So, no .45-70 inside the house. Got it.
Finally a good question!
Thank you Tom
I have a SW sd9mm for some reason this pistol does not like hallow points. It jams up every other round. The mouth of the hallow points jam's right into the end of the ramp / slide . Does anyone have any advice ❓❓
Little suzy down the street had it coming also . LoL 😂
Tom is a rock star for folks who believe in Freedom.! Cowabunga.!!
Good job bringing ammo in the picture.
Ive found that a sword works great chasing someone of your property. Every bullet should be well placed to avoid problems
U.S.C.C.A. contract does NOT cover if the subject is ARRESTED even for bogus charges to sop to the mob. And, the subject may have to payback any expenses already paid. It might only cover Civil Lawsuits.
There’s one thing you can do for people that watch your UA-cam videos that would help gun owners immensely. Basically, every time your attorney, Tom, utters the words “check your local listings“ it makes your videos useless.
None of us can understand what the heck our local listings say because we are not attorneys.
How about YOU check each states’ local listing and provide your viewers with that information.
You obviously have attorneys in each state which could read the law and provide the information to your staff who would, inturn, create an Excel spreadsheet by state, and enter a Y for yes, or an N for no, after each state. This would tell your viewers if the subject being discussed applied, or did not apply, to the state they were currently living in.
Then post the list at the end of your video. It certainly would make your viewers watch till the end.
This would help gun owners understand and obey the law, as well as increase USCCA membership.
How about taking a major step in helping your viewers understand their “local listing” law instead of throwing their hands up in frustration every time they hear those totally useless words.
Life is tough. It is even tougher when you are st, I mean ignorant.
This isn't a PhD thesis on gun law. Part of being a responsible gun owner is taking personal responsibility. 🙄
Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it.
When you say check your local listing, what does that mean who do I check with ?
For home defense just use a tactical shotty. You won’t have to worry too much about rogue rounds.
NY doesn't allow hollow point so how does your default nse stand up if you hit a perp and that bullet goes through and hits so.e one else? Does the govt and the criminal now pick up the tab?
In some states yes, in some states no, in some states it depends on whether you were being blatantly reckless. I’m sure personal injury lawsuits are a near guarantee if you harm an innocent bystander, and win or lose, going through a lawsuit sucks.
Guess I better make sure the bad guy gets in my house so no bullets fly anywhere else.
Not here. You are responsible for every round you fire and can be held criminally liable for the injury or death of an innocent third party during the use of defense and deadly force
Even, if in some case you escape legal responsibility.. you have a moral responsibility.
Hahahahahaha @ that question😂😂. The innocent person suppose to just be like "im bleeding out but at least they protected their personal belongings. I'll cover my own medical expenses" 😂😂😂
If you shoot at and hit the bad guy, but the bullet passes through him and hits someone else, you may not be charged criminally. But there may be civil issues you need to deal with.
True, you may not go to prison but the cost of defending yourself Civilly could have you and your family living under a bridge.
One thing I learned is don't use FMJ for self defense I recommend hornaday critical defense if you have a 9mm. My 9 is loaded with that
It depends on what state you reside in. Liberal DA’s, police and prosecutors will say something totally different than red states. I’m in a blue state and I can see a stark difference than red states when it comes to gun related charges for very very similar gun cases
Your WEAPON - YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE! It is incredibly INAPPROPRIATE to use words which describe POLITICAL AFFILIATION and stance ,and such as it is both illogical, unacceptable,and irrelevant .
Political ambitions are more dangerous than party affiliations.
I taught you are responsible for the bullet until it comes to a complete stop. So whatever the bullet goes through you are responsible for.