WELS has a special place in my heart. I was raised Pentecostal (AG), but I knew I wasn’t, myself, a Pentecostal believer. I was just on my own after college. I had tried going to my girlfriend’s church, which was some non-denominational mega church, but it wasn’t right. My girlfriend insisted I find a church (thank God for such women!), so I just picked up a phone book and started calling local churches. The one place a pastor actually answered the phone was a WELS church down the street from me, so I started going there. It was the first time I was actually catechised, and it was wonderful. I ultimately did not stay with WELS, but it was an important moment in my Christian faith, and I am grateful to God, Pastor Paul, and the congregation of St Peter WELS in Modesto, CA.
@@metapolitikgedanken612 , to begin with, I am grateful to God for the churches I was raised in. My mother taught me to love reading the Bible, and I had some excellent Sunday School teachers who taught me the value of really studying the Bible and taking my faith seriously. I went to an AG college. Overall, it was a good experience. But when I looked into the tongues-as-evidence-of-baptism-in-the-holy-spirit doctrine, for instance, asking professors who sincerely believed it to explain the logic and the theological history, I just couldn’t accept it. I was not overly exuberant in my participation in our chapel worship services ( I sometimes raised my hands, never spoke in tongues, didn’t cry, didn’t always sing every repetition of the chorus, etc.), and thus I got labeled as someone who wasn’t baptized in the Holy Spirit, or not even saved. I came to wonder whether the expression of Pentecostal belief I saw around me was more based in personality than in the work of God. And that made me troubled about communion. If these people around me doubted whether I was even a Christian, then it seemed they didn’t take communion that seriously. Paul seemed to say we should, and that there were pretty dire consequences for taking it “unworthily.” So I wanted to find a church where I could actually believe what they believed, and who would not commune me until they were sure we were in agreement. I wanted a place in which there was no individual performative aspect to worship, where I might be confused as to where my idiosyncratic personality ended and God’s work began. In short, I was looking for liturgy. Anyway, that’s a pretty short answer to a very complex set of struggles I faced in my early twenties, and I’m sure I’m reading at least some of my later history back into my earlier history, but it’s true enough as a rough sketch. Let me know if that answers your question.
@@robertAGC Thanks for sharing. I get that not every church/ministry is intentionally evil, when they are wrong on doctrine or other things.... But I had the 'willfully ignorant' experience as well. I recall one group that practiced speaking in tongues, but they never insisted that this was somehow the threshold for 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit". Others seem to be very adamant about this. And that in an unhealthy way that it all circles around certain gifts of the spirit... And well, there are also some that practice glossolalia without even being Christian, which should be alarming. To me a lot has it's place, but in it's place and not as something overshadowing the gospel and its purpose. There is also the reverse were anything that is isn't in their church tradition is made suspect a priori... Both extremes are rather autistic and a reason to move on. Looking back, I think that I was too patient with of those churches. And perhaps too demanding in other ways...The thing is that a large amount that had potential seem to have lost the plot entirely. It turns around them and not around Christ anymore. On the other hand I think one has to has patient as well. We come from a fallen world and moving into salvation takes time.
Same here!!! Ascension WELS in Harrisburg, PA was an absolutely grounding experience in my faith with Pastor Ben and the Congregation. They are truly invested in your faith journey and fellowship amongst believers in the church. Doctrinal unity amongst all WELS churches is also beautiful in its own right. I am currently going through LCMS confirmation but I would not hesitate going back to WELS should LCMS ever fall away.
I will say that is refreshing to see that there are still people who are capable of discussing things in a mature and civil manner, in contrast to what passes as discourse in much of the social media today.
The thumbnail "The Lutherans who won't pray with you" is perhaps a bit sensational and provocative, but it's not inaccurate. I did want something that draws people in, but I am hoping it doesn't offend my WELS viewers. This is definitely not the "main thing" about who WELS is, but it certainly is a unique aspect of who they are. (And many viewers come to find out what really is unique about these denominations.) If you want to read a short FAQ answer from WELS about this position, you can do so here: wels.net/faq/praying-with-members-of-other-denominations/
@@minionman95 Since when? In 2001, LCMS punished several members of its clergy for participating in an ecumenical prayer service to commerate 9-11, and a host of the Lutheran Hour radio series, which is run by the LCMS was fired for defending the clergy
I was raised WELS and found a home among the ELS. I'm in my last year of seminary and I must say this was a very accurate presentation of official WELS doctrine and practice.
Hi, a very good friend from high school was the President of the ELS seminary until this year, Reverend Gaylin Schmeling. One of his sons might be a teacher in the Seminary. I'm happy to hear you are preparing for the ministry because of the dire need of more pastors. May God bless you and your future ministry.
@@truthisbeautiful7492 it's about not giving a false security, a false testimony by giving assurance to members of groups seen as doctrinally questionable by practicing spiritual unity in prayer and other things. it's to honor the importance of doctrine above practical or emotional questions. because heresy can directly or indirectly affect the Gospel and by that even eternal salvation. many non-lutheran doctrines are considered anti-gospel. it doesn't mean that members of heterodox groups that still believe in the sufficient and atoning sacrifice of Christ aren't going to heaven and thus not in invisible fellowship. it's considered lucky inconsequence, but one can't look into another heart and you never know what effect heresy has. the Gospel is just too crucial and important to allow even indirect attacks on it by lesser doctrines indirectly but maybe in the end effectively contradicting it. in respect of the eternal life of those that observe fellowship actions (including prayer) one refrains from compromising on that.
The position of most confessional Lutherans is that we typically do not refer to confession/absolution as a sacrament, but we won't fight you on it if you do as long as you understand what we mean by sacrament. The Apology of the Augsburg Confession states that the numbering of the sacraments is not an important matter as long as the nature of the sacraments is understood.
@@vngelicath1580 It's just a matter of clarity. Note how the Catechism quote in the video delimits the use of earthly elements, where Confession and Absolution doesn't. So the Confessions speaks of two and three, and then also says the number doesn't matter. For clarity's sake, it's useful to speak of two Sacraments, without denying Confession and Absolution as a mean of grace (but not a Sacrament), just as a matter of definitions. It's just not a fight that we are really purposed to die on.
@@harktheheral The three-fold definition is arbitrary, you can get any result you want if you craft the definition. The historic Augustinian view is "an outward visible sign of an inward spiritual grace"... 'outward visible sign' isn't nearly as narrow as a 'physical/tangible element' The minister himself, or the words spoken by him or the ceremony itself apart from any direct material used.. all qualify as outward visible signs to ground inward spiritual grace. To let the other shoe drop, 'inward spiritual grace' isn't nearly as specific as the forgiveness of sins, but can refer to any gift of God given with/through the Spirit. It's fine to have a stricter definition to distinguish the ceremonial rituals of Christ from that of the Church, but the historic church was never that specific and so it is a Lutheran innovation in the definition of "sacrament."
I go to Saint John WELS.. Fremont Wisconsin.. Established 1854.. Log church til 1908.. Same building built 1908 til today.. In a oak Grove in the country between corn fields.. We are getting a green pastor fresh out of seminary.. 🙏
@@richardfrerks8712 building, age, tradition, ... doesn't count above doctrine. and that you need to understand in detail and be able to explain correctly to your family.
Very informative video. I’m a member of an LCMS congregation. I consider the differences between the WELS and the LCMS minor enough that I would become a WELS member if there were no LCMS congregation present where I live. There is no WELS congregation within 100 miles of my city, and I know a few WELS members who transferred here for work and attend my church and receive the Sacrament. My pastor is happy to minister to them as they would otherwise be doing without.
I was raised WELS and happy for it. Now, after nearly forty-five years since my confirmation, I consider myself a lifelong Lutheran! When on business trips, I seek out one of our sister congregations and when none are available or close enough, I seek out an LCMS. Sometimes I go whatever is closest, but consider it a privilege to worship in a Lutheran congregation, regardless of Synod!
Very good message about WELS. I grew up in WELS, my father was a WELS pastor. I attended WELS grade school, high school and a brief stint at the WELS college. I changed to the LCMS synod because there are no WELS churches in the area that I live. I have found very little difference between the two Synods. Thanks for your information.
Where I live I have to drive 45 minutes to go to wels church, the main reason the two separated is the disagreements on holy communion, and who can be pastors
In my opinion the difference between wels and LCMS is trivial. Wisconsin synod is so obsessed with orthodoxy and purity, it's hard actually to find the gospel. I'm with LCMS
The WELS and LCMS are very similar Lutheran bodies, but share 3 main theological differences of which one of them is their view on church fellowship. The WELS believes in all fellowship is virtually identical including prayer whereas the LCMS believes in altar and pulpit fellowship for reception of communion as a special sort of fellowship only. The WELS also does not permit women sufferage in matters of congregational polity whereas the LCMS does. Lastly, the LCMS believes in divine appointment and institution of the pastoral office whereas the WELS does not draw this distinction of the pastoral office.
Ummm, the LCMS is only itself. Doesn't reccognizae anyone else as Lutheran or even Christian. Everyone is going to hell except them. Evangelical Lutheran Church of America strives to bring in more and more Lutherans and never mind little differences. Trust in Jesus. ELCA took in Christians kicked out of the Missouri Synod. BTW, congrats to narrator for correctly pronoucing Misery Synod.
This is definitely real, confessional Lutheranism. A rarity today. I have always been bothered by the reality that a typical WELS minister won't participate in public prayer with ministers of other denominations, but I have a grudging respect for their commitment to the historic faith that they profess.
But ministers of what other denominations? The ELCA?.. Episcopalians?.. Roman Catholics? Where do you draw the line? Nor do I understand the need to grandstand or make a point of praying with those outside one's own church. Why not just pray for them? Far better option
@@seansweeney8911 praying with others is hardly grandstanding. If I took that attitude, there would be a whole lot of people that I would simply refuse to pray with because they are not Catholics. I get asked to pray with people all the time. Friday I will preach the funeral of someone I knew who wasn't even Catholic, because my presence was requested. That's Ministry and that's prayer, that's Christian outreach. It doesn't mean that we agree with the doctrines and sometimes the philosophy or what an old mentor of mine used to call the thought-theology of some of the denominations we're going to encounter. But I live in the South, if I refuse to pray with Protestants I'm going to be telling a lot of people that they aren't good enough for me to pray with them and for them, because for a lot of folks, your public expression of praying for them and your telling them that "I'm going to pray for you" has to go a little further than simply saying you're going to pray for them. You have to actually do it, and sometimes it's best to actually do it, publicly... If you're in Ministry it's not just a matter of show.
@@DavidOatney It would appear that you are a Catholic; therefore you probably don’t take seriously Christ’s call to ‘come out from among them, and be ye separate’ ( no ecumenism ). Furthermore, if you’re Catholic, do you even recognise the legitimacy of the Protestant ministry? And if you are in fact a Prod, then you’re a right traitor
@@seansweeney8911 actually we do take that call seriously, the only place you're going to come if you're answering that call is toward Holy Mother Church and not away from her. However, we also recognize that we were all once part of the same Church, and in an indirect way we still are. We also recognize the dignity of people who are made in the image and likeness of God, so even if you are Protestant, God loves you, he cares for you, He has the power to save you, Christ died for you just the same. Your theological wrongness doesn't change that, we'll leave God to judge it. I'm not sure what you mean by "legitimacy" when it comes to Protestant ministry. Catholics recognize ordained ministry, Holy Orders, as a sacrament. Some Protestant denominations do, but the majority do not, including Lutherans. So in that sense, we can't recognize the legitimacy of protestant Ministry because they don't recognize the legitimacy of their own Ministry in the way that we would. We do recognize that they are legitimately ordained or set apart for Ministry according to the rules of their own denomination. In certain cases, a Protestant Minister could even preside over a Catholic wedding ceremony, provided the proper dispensations for that are obtained.
@@joykeebler1916 am a WELS member and a historian. Early in the history of the Wisconsin Synod, Missouri Synod leaders helped get her doctrinal house in order. Sadly, they split after Missouri went astray. The two synods are now in doctrinal discussions again. I hope and pray that God, through the WELS, will put the LCMS back on the right path.
ELCA is a pagan coven by now. no, some female pastrix already performed such rituals. it's the enemies of Christianity assembling there plus some paying members that didn't get the memo yet 😂
I went to a wels school growing up even though I was reformed and not a part of their church. The issue with not praying with others is not enforced or really taught. We all prayed together all the time so while it is in their forms no one really follows it and most would outright disagree with it.
I’ve heard stories of WELS pastors not doing group prayers at school shooting because of their stance. I have no issue with you being theologically conservative. I’m ELCA but used to be LCMS. It’s ones own beliefs and that’s fine but why would you not want to be part of your Christian community in prayer during terrible things like mass murder or natural disasters?
it's sad if people are so dishonest and doctrine not relevant in catechesis and daily life. why don't they just convert to lcms but don't put up a very dishonest show?!
😂 why did your pastor do such a bad job? or are you avoiding regular fellowship?! you should contact him and if he's worth his money he'd even visit at home to explain. besides that your church has plenty of literature at northwestern publishing house available for countless topics. I'd recommend "THIS WE BELIEVE - Questions and Answers" for a start.
I grew up in Barnwell County, SC where there are no Lutheran Churches, so Lutherans always seemed just short of Creatures from another planet. I have only visited ELCA churches and know of the existence of the Wisconsin Synod, so this episodes was enlightening. Thank you.
I'm currently at the WELS college for ministry where all called workers (teachers, pastors, and staff ministers) are trained and the specific teaching is that women shouldn't teach classes from scriptural authority like doctrinal classes over men
but look at all the factually female leaders as specialists in synod admin projects, as profs in college, as counselors at wlcfs, ... etc. and why do so many profs get additional or even first degrees lately from not only baptist schools but very often from jesuit schools even? and first any criticism of outer form and institutions was shunned and now wokies from disbanded "church and change" circles dominate synod media and woke language and topics make huge inroads preserve your synod if you want to keep it for another generation! it's urgent
I watched your Lutheran outliers video, and I can honestly say ELDoNA deserves a video of its own rather than simply a mention in passing. I’d be happy to help with research.
@@mikezeke7041 The ELDoNA is a small confessional Lutheran denomination centered in Malone, Texas. There’s only 30 churches so a lot of people haven’t heard of it. I attend an ELDoNA affiliated congregation online as an observer. But I do plan to begin catechesis and become and official member at some point.
😂 and how articulate are you in your disagreements? and which would these be? and what authoritative sources from the Bible could you present for these? or are there other factors to be considered?😊
Thanks again for a great video! As a lifelong WELS member who went to a WELS high school, I can affirm that you accurately portrayed the doctrine of the WELS. While the WELS can seem a little overboard in some doctrines (such as concerning church fellowship and the role of women in the church), they take those more conservative stances to help defend against theologically liberal ideas. While I personally don't have a problem praying with followers of Jesus who are outside of the WELS, I appreciate the fact that the WELS as an organization does not pray with other denominations to help protect against difficult situations where another denomination begins teaching non-Biblical doctrine and the WELS is in partial cooperation with that denominations, if that makes sense. The role of women in church has always been more difficult for me to grapple with, as I love many of my sisters in Christ and have grown in my own faith from the examples of faith present in many WELS women. However, as long as the men are loving and respectful of their sisters in the church (which sinful men will always need to work on), this doctrinal stance has caused little strife within congregations. If anyone has questions about life in the WELS, feel free to reply! Edit: One big thing I wanted to mention about the WELS is that they have one of the best educational tracks for pastors that I know of. You can be sure that every WELS pastor has completed 8 years of college-level education (4 undergrad, 4 graduate) that includes deep dives into theology and the languages of the Bible. While not all pastors are made equal, the vast majority of WELS pastors are extremely knowledgeable in all things Scripture and are a wealth of information. This can lead to some more "academic" sermons, but you can be sure that everything said in those sermons is Biblically accurate.
Contemplating membership. Wonderful pastor, but his 'CCT foundations course' videos are corny & dated. Wondering how strict they are on members who attend LCMS while traveling? WELS are spread thin here. And on those who may doubt the literal "24 hr" creation days and a young earth, no dinosaurs. Thanks
@@kevinkassil6038While traveling it's not always possible to find a WELS church and most would encourage attendance at LCMS along with an encouragement to check what is said against scripture. However, another new option would be to attend service online. Several WELS churches offer online service that could be attended during travel.
@@kevinkassil6038😂😂 what issues do you have with the literal 24 hours? you don't believe in an almighty God? darwinism has so many holes in it also from an academic viewpoint
I have very little interest in any of the novelties from the last 150 years. The old synodical conference was fundamentally sound and reflects my current confession.
Most of their theology is consistent with what all Lutherans would affirm. I think that differences occur due to where the line should be drawn in defining what they refer to as literalistic interpretations of the Bible. For example, they say that literalistic approaches ignore context and the use of symbolic language, but many Lutherans from other denominations would say that this is exactly what they are doing when they insist that the earth was created in 144 hours and is only a few thousand years old, and no other views on this matter are consistent with Christianity. Their belief that they alone have the only correct interpretation of all of scripture seems to be the basis for why they believe that they shouldn't pray or worship with others outside of the WELS.
The LCMS, the other major confessional Lutheran fellowship in the United States, also holds to and requires a belief in a literal six day creation. The LCMS does not require belief in what is called Young Earth Creationism, but there is little point in subscribing to a view of the Earth as being hundreds of millions of years old while rejecting evolution and holding to a literal creation week.
@@RepublicofE exactly, and that literal week interpretation is very important to us in terms of the Exegesis of the text. I don't hold a firm position on earth age because I simply don't feel the need to speculate on it, but will gladly hold to the literal week, since it is what the syntax of the Scriptures in question seem to point to
@@matthewbless3335 so I guess you also believe in the ages of persons and numbers of soldiers in battles, etc? They always seemed absurd to me, or poetic license if you will. Not really "real".
Taking your statement into consideration, WELS on the topic of Christian fellowship sounds ‘worse’ let alone not to far off from Catholics who believe that only the Roman Catholic Church (those who are in submit to the Bishop of Rome) is the “one holy catholic and apostolic church” and no other denomination is part of that “one holy catholic and apostolic church.”
@@voxveritas333 I'm not really sure I have much reason not to, I suppose, but it depends on the genre in the text. For instance, the numbers in Revelation are, of course, deeply symbolic. In the Genesis text, it's written syntactically as a historical text, and it is nowhere contradicted that it should be read as such, so as an exegete, I have no choice other than to take it at face value
As a little bit of contemporary relevancy, I'd like to point out that the only significant presence of confessional Lutheranism in Ukraine, as well as the largest example of Eastern Rite Lutheranism, is a WELS ecumenical partner denomination.
There is a small denomination affiliated with Missouri as well. I can't remember the name unfortunately off the top of my head, but I do know some missionaries who were over there, not sure what they're doing now though
@@matthewbless3335 Although like the WELS the LCMS also has ecumenical partner church bodies around the world. There are two LCMS partner denominations in Russia and I believe they are Eastern Rite. However they are pretty small compared to the WELS Ukraine partner.
@@RepublicofE can't be AALC, because they're in the ILC with us. Not sure what I was thinking of. Either way, I do know we have Missouri Synod missionaries in the country for sure.
As a WELS member I wouldnt say private confession is unknown it is not mandatory. It is, however encouraged to privately confess our sins both to our pastor and our brothers in Christ.
I have a short attention span, so I lost you a quarter of the way through. But, this is excellent. If I were to have the opportunity to explain to someone my church, I would point this to them. It's a heavy duty explanation, perfectly articulated, but phew! Makes your brain swirl .
😂😂😂 it's a discipline question. and your choices of recreational media consumption create issues with the attention span. it's anyway providing you only with blasphemy. so what did you gain and why not try a change. the muslims call us Christians the "book believers". So, it fits our faith to be a bit more cerebral and quite literate! Christ is called the WORD of God! not the theater of God
My mother was LCA [?] and when she retired, the closest Lutheran church was Missouri Synod. No problems. It was an area with many retired folks, looking for a Lutheran church. She took communion there, and kidnapped me one Sunday for communion. No questions about about passing the test to become Missouri Synod. I liked the Pastor. What does it say about the big shots playing politics over who is the more correct Lutheran? Sounds like the Pharisees to me.
😂😂😂 you seem to hate God's Word and its emphasis on honoring every word of it. which boils down to what is called doctrine. so sad all these people attending for outward and emotional reasons while despising openly the original reason and doctrinal content of a church and its beliefs
They are one of the more conservative Lutheran Church. I really like that a lot. I visited their Dix Hills, Long Island, New York. Very nice Church, very Christian, wonderful church.
As a former WELS member of 20 years, I found this video to be accurate, but I would consider it a starting point for WELS congregations you would encounter in real life. Some are very much as described here, but driven by church decline in general many tend to be a bit gimmicky, try to appear trendy, and try a bit too hard to "do God a favor." Many have gone so far as to appear non-denominational to increase curb appeal (even dropping "Lutheran" from their shingle). They would argue that the name "Lutheran" has been so abused by the likes of the ELCA that they are better off without it, but the same could be said of the term "Christian." They used to be quite homogeneous, but they appear more like the LCMS in increasing heterogeneity, but the big difference is that the WELS tends to be "low church" in worship compared to the LCMS. It's a sad tale for both church bodies; I often lament that if they would just be the church instead of trying to "help God" all the time, and let God help them, things would be better overall. Still, they are the best thing going in my opinion for solid orthodox Christianity.
I think similarly to the more conservative Lutheran denominations. I'm still on the fence about infant baptism though. They might kick me out over my view on the creation week as well.
Again, wonderfully done with 1 small correction , pertaining to pronunciation of the city of Meqoun , it is pronounced Mec-kwon not mee-kon. It is a few miles north of Milwaukee, WI. 😎
because lcms adhers to liberal heresy and practice and wasn't able to return to the old shared ways once given in the Synodical Conference a tale of two synods - northwestern publishing house
Baptist doctrine is considered a heretic attack on the free Gospel! you need to do something instead of being the weak recipient of forgiveness via the channel of the Sacraments and everything is only seen as symbolic in your tradition. basically an early form of Bible criticism in seemingly"holy" garments. that's abhorrent to us Lutherans. not possible to have that at the Lord's table where Christs very body and blood are miraculously present in, with and under bread and wine. Don't you know that many got bodily sick, some even died according to the Bible for not discerning the body and blood correctly but anyhow unworthily stepping forward to the Lord's Supper? That's what the apostle said in God's Word! Should they not warn you and take care of your safety and not allow every heretic untested to the Lords table just over some fuzzy ecumenical feelings? that would be lacking love for first the Word of God (mainly also the Gospel part in it!) and secondly your own bodily safety! are you asking for such an inconsiderate and sloppy attitude in church?! it's God's Word and Christs own body and blood and your fellow sinners for whom he died on the cross! Discernment!
Some confusion may be produced with the discussion of the Mark of the Beast right after the discussion of the Antichrist. It is my understanding that historic Lutheran orthodoxy has never connected "the Beast" or his mark to the Antichrist. The treatment of the Antichrist and the Beast as the same entity was something invented by millenial revivalists to my knowledge.
@@Avery_F I'm afraid I'm not sophisticated enough in Lutheran escatology to really answer your question in depth. All I know is that Lutherans reject the idea of the Antichrist being a man or being who establishes rule over the Earth to repress Christianity everywhere. Lutherans consider the Antichrist to be somebody who would have a legitimate office within the church herself to establish hegemony of false teaching, which is why Lutherans point to the Papacy as the Antichrist rather than a political leader of a non-church nature. On the Power of and Primacy of the Pope is a good text to consult for a brief summary of this. Importantly, the primary text from which the Lutheran understanding of the Antichrist is drawn is not Daniel or Revelation, but 2 Tessalonians.
I'm not a Lutheran, but if I had to be: I think I'd fit better with the LCMS then WELS. WELS refusing to allow prayer with other Christian denominations is a bit too much for my liking, as well as the strangeness of seeing only one office of the Church when I'm convinced that the Scripture does teach of 2 (Elder and Deacon) explicitly ordained offices for the Church. WELS is a bit strange to me, but I would be willing to commune with them, although they seem unwilling to commune with me.
It is the LCMS that only sees one office of the church (Pastor) - WELS has staff ministers (deacons) and teachers as called workers as well. If you're willing to commune with someone who you aren't in doctrinal agreement with, you are right not to go to either LCMS or WELS, as they both practice Close (not Closed) communion.
@@larrythompson866 I mean according to this video on the LCMS: they do recognize Deacons as distinct from the Pastor/Bishop of a local Church: ua-cam.com/video/Xy7WuLuIXig/v-deo.html I don't commune with people where I have major doctrinal disagreements, but I am willing to recognize and take communion with Christians whom disagree with me on secondary issues. I am also more than happy to pray to Christ with those same people who worship the Lord our God, even if they come from a denomination different to my own for secondary disagreements.
Let me explain the prayer thing, and I hope others see my comment. WELS do not support ecumenical prayer, meaning, if you're a Protestant, prayer with Catholics, or even Jews or Muslims. This is just Biblical, as the Scriptures say to have no prayer with unbelievers or distorters of the faith. The Bible promises that such prayers go unreceived and unanswered by God. Prayer with other born again Christians might by permitted by much of the Wisconsin Synod, I'm not sure. If you yourself would only ever engage in that type of prayer, with born again Christians in whatever your own church may be or such believers outside of it, then you probably have nothing to fear from WELS. I'm not totally clear on whom they restrict inter faith prayer to, aside from Catholics and non Christians, and I'm equally unclear as to what your limits for interfaith prayer are
@@seansweeney8911 everyone not in full doctrinal fellowship. because any heresy usually in the end attacks the gospel. and that's eternal life. so before not hurting other Christian feelings it's rather important to emphasize they first need to get the entirety of their set of doctrines straight. hurt feelings can be mended, eternal life is of higer urgency and importance. therefore bear no false witness by pretending everything is fine and proceeding to shared spiritual life like normal.
I was baptized WELS, grew up WELS, went to WELS grade schools and high school, was confirmed and married in a WELS church. I admire the insistence on biblical foundation for church doctrine, and I think they have the doctrine of Justification nailed down. But the issue of the souls of dead babies caused me to leave the church for the LCMS. There comes a point where the thirst for purity turns into legalism and the trees are obscured by the forest. My Jesus willingly surrendered His position in heaven and willingly took on humanity, willingly lived among us, and willingly gave Himself up as the only possible perfect sacrifice to redeem us from our lost condition. He conquered sin and the devil and returned to heaven triumphant. And He did all that out of perfect love and grace. My perfect loving Jesus is not skipping the souls of dead infants across the lake of fire to spend eternity in screeching torment. And my pure doctrinal stance on the matter is the totality of the scriptures. The legal approach leaves me cold, as if Christianity were an exercise in pursuit of a law degree. My experience left me cold. The WELS is a head church, struggling to find its heart, let alone reaching out with its hands. My experience with the LCMS has been a breath of fresh air. Much of what I found lacking in the WELS I have been blessed to find there. I still have issues with confessional Lutheranism, but I have resigned myself that I will probably never find a church that aligns perfectly with my beliefs. For now, I have a happy home.
I was baptized, grew up in, and confirmed in the ELCA. I came from the other side of things, where today’s ELCA is almost an “anything goes” church. To turn your phrase, it may be a heart church that has lost its head. While I appreciate that they want to welcome others to Christ, they’ve done so by twisting or even ignoring scripture instead of laying out what God wants of us. I, too, am now an LCMS member, and I, too, have found it a breath of fresh air.
I realize I may be unintentionally poking a hornet’s nest here, but something you said resonated with me. I used to be a Presbyterian, then a LCMS member. I started to notice eventually that it does seem that no church ever matches 100% what I or anyone else believes, like you said. That started me thinking that maybe that’s why there are so many denominations. And maybe it’s not about what I think is correct. That train of thought ultimately led me to the realization that Jesus actually started a visible Church. And therefore I am now Catholic. Just food for thought. God bless!
3:10 "Hinders God's saving desire to win hearts to himself" I always find phrases like this weird - how can an all-powerful being be hindered in anything, especially hindered in even desire. I can't be the only one who notices stuff like this. Why is omnipotence so conditional?
Because we have the power to actually hinder people from wanting to hear more about what God has to say. it is we who are in the way. God did not create us to be robots and so he allows us to do what we do down here and even get away with it at times.(only not in the end).
@@sspashleymae24 I read a study claiming all humans have a common ancestor 4000 years ago based on math models. Which is obvious nonsense. Evolution is super well documented but you refuse to see the evidence.
@@napoleonfeanor😂 you can't document things that happened many years before you lived. you can only infer by scientific tools. the theory of evolution is not core MINT science but more like history of biology and geology etc. history is always a blurry department among other academia. especially where we don't have written accounts. it's even older than prehistoric questions that are discussed here. Do you believe in a God at all? Does he have properties like being almighty or being capable of revealing himself accurately to us concerning topics? If so, you wouldn't be allowed to claim any limitations on his statements in revelations to us. The Bible seems to fit that shoe. No one has proven common descent so far, all lifeforms bridging to other ones, like archaeopteryx have turned out as kind of paleological cul de sacs and not the missing links postulated by Darwin. you can't develop cells or cell cores and all their intricate cellular or molecular machines over millions of years, nothing there's is dispensable. you need the full set from the get go for a viable cell that is replicable. the Miller experiment was useless. it produced only a useless mix of "anti-life" molecules and needed a very elaborate laboratory setting to have that unviable outcome. real organisms require a different type of molecules. everything is so much on the hypothetical, on the theory level. but Miller is still paraded around as the big breakthrough it isn't. So every other research and funny anthropological ideas. it's actually quite some quack quota, although quite elitist circles. the jury is still out on that matter and as we have now way more data, high powered microscopes, etc. than in Darwins times, ... it actually looks meek for classic common descent, molecular evolution etc. Why else did academia early on switch to "synthetic evolution" as the main thing taught? Darwin was mainly on the hypothetical journey. his Galapagos finches? mere intra-species micro evolution, adaption to environmental circumstances, maybe even only playing out of several different preexisting genetic options. there's genetic switches about which Darwin didn't know a thing. Genes? not a word in his texts. Mendel though was a Christian again. Mendel rules todays industry and academia. Finches? irrelevant. like different breeds of dogs. you can rebreed them back to their wolf-like ancestors.
@chrise-ih4ix silly copy pasta from evangelicals who take everything literally and have no idea about actual biology. Evolution has long been observed in real life,too.
In the 1990s and early 2000s, there were a lot of Lutherans who switched from the LCMS to the WELS due to liberal trends within the LCMS. It's likely that there are a lot of WELS members who privately disagree with their doctrine of prayer fellowship, but who joined because they were seen as a more conservative alternative to the LCMS.
Liberal trends? What liberal trends? It is true that WELS is the more conservative of the two, but LCMS cab hardly be considered liberal, in fact, it calls itself 'fundamentalist' even though this term is not normally associated with Lutheranism
@@Michael-bk5nz I've never heard of the LCMS referring to itself as fundamentalist. Where are you getting that? Keep in mind that in confessional Lutheranism anything that tends toward ecumenicism is also considered liberalizing. Watering down of the doctrine of closed communion and other practices that make a church seemingly more friendly to closet evangelicals would be an example.
@@Michael-bk5nz again, no we don't. We use the term Confessional, not "fundamentalist." I'm not sure where you're getting your info from, but it's incorrect.
@@matthewbless3335 I don't know that the national denomination uses the term, but I attended several LCMS churches from 1981-1993 and I met several members who did not object to that term being used to describe LCMS beliefs due to the position in support of young Earth creationism (an idea that originated among 7th Day Adventists and was popularized by an LCMS pastor in 1963)
@@RepublicofE It like the WELS preaches the “one true church” doctrine similar to the Catholics and Orthodox, although the former prays with other denominations. If a Christian affirmed the apostles creed, and believes that the Bible is the word of God for all people, then they are a Christian. The WELS gives off cultish vibes
I don’t understand Lutherans who don’t make the sign of the Cross. The catechism says repeatedly, “…make the sign of the cross and say.” Are you afraid of the Baptists or Reformed or what? ;)
You should do a breakdown of the christian sects and relgions from the Handbook of Denominations and show where the beginning of Christianity started. A great book done by secular unbiased Historians who were not religious.
how is a secular person unbiased? you seem to be a scientism cultist. Secularism is an aggressive pseudoreligion in severe competition with Christianity. BTW: WELS is closest to the origins. Why? Because the Lutheran reformation was back then the movement focused most intense on justifying everything from the ancient church fathers for their romish opponents and the emperor. Besides of course proving everything from the Holy Scripture first, which started the whole thing from the get go. And confessional Lutheranism mainly and mostly defines itself by clinging explicitly to the confessional Lutheran Creeds formulated during that epoch five centuries ago as compiled in the Book of Concord. So, as others have done before: you can call them the true Catholic Apostolic church. Minus the romish and medieval part of course. Also Lutherans produced church historians like Pelikan, Bente. Other denominations respect their works a lot.
good! God's Word warns that many fell ill, some even died for partaking unworthily and really not understanding what they have in front of them. It's the Lords very blood and body, correctly to be discerned by those who participate. it's not an emotional happening, it's Gods son present under bread and wine and dangerous. God is jealous the Bible says. You should thank them for not risking your bodily health as the Bible warns. Instead they honor the Gospel, God's Word and your safety. Who knows what funny unbiblical things you were taught in a church not adhering to the full teachings of the Bible as they're compiled diligently in the Book of Concord! Who knows what deep misconceptions popular culture deeply and effectively instilled in your belief system over the span of your religious biography so far! You want them to risk your health and God's wrath over that?
Oh and for these Baptists who say well the thief! The thief. Wrong. At that time the Lord had not yet fulfilled his mission (Nicene creed) and the great commission had not been given yet. So there. Baptism is a must. Water and the word always go together-faith.
I don't understand how Lutherans can claim the papacy as the antichrist, as in the majority of verses referencing the antichrist state in no uncertain terms that the antichrist would deny Jesus as the Christ, something which the Papacy very obviously does not do. The only defense I've heard is that the antichrist of Paul's letters is completely different and not at all related to the antichrist of Revelations, but that seems like a baseless assertion that would only be made if you held to a position that contradicts scripture and you aren't willing to drop it so you desperately look for any excuse
the pope declared himself to bring doctrine instead of Christs Words. There you have it. with bringing unevangelical works righteousness he also replaced the right worship of God in the temple, in the place of worship. also Christology wasn't unaffected You need to read Thessalonians, too! it's all there.
Me neither. I could only suppose they don't know how to read or brought this to inspire fear in order to legitimize themselves. Saint Paul talks about a great apostasy followed by the apparition of the Antichrist when the end of the world is near. He would be one man claiming to be God while rejecting the true one and demanding to be worshipped. It goes in hand with what Saint John says in Revelations about the beast: it would be worshipped, blaspheme against God, operate wonders, establish a worldwide government and persecute Christians. God will give him power to make war for 42 months, Christ himself will defeat him and then comes the Final Judgement. Most theologians and doctors of the Church agree the beast and the Antichrist are the same person. Those are signs of the end. However, some protestants insist that the Pope is the Antichrist, which is ridiculous. According to them, the Antichrist isn't one man, but hundreds of them (?). Well, there is no Great Apostasy going on, there have been Popes for almost 2000 years, and yet none of them has established a world government, he isn't worshipped by most of humanity, isn't persecuting Christians, doesn't claim to be God and Christ still hasn't returned to defeat him/them 😂😂😂 I guess it's easier to maintain a ludicrous "theology" like this than just admitting they were wrong.
@@raphaelportelinha1738 The beast is an absolute separate (though often collaborating) entity. It rather reflects authoritarian regimes. "42 months" and other numbers, colors, horses, things and persons are so obviously apocalyptic symbols like the psalmists poetry. That's nothing like e.g. the literal 24 hours of the 6 day creation which gives other linguistic impressions and was drafted in the style of an Egyptian court official that meticulously noted down historical events. Apocalyptic text portions, the books of wisdom etc. completely deviate for obvious reasons from that language. Therefore amillenalism is the only reasonable eschatological exegesis of the Bible for sincere believers. (Dispensationalism was financed and promoted by extremely shady unbelievers like Jekyll Island figure Untermyer, Darby got inspired as a lawyer (!) not as a theologian by old jesuit heresies he found in the dark corners of the local library, Scofield was a criminal in his earlier life, all no figures to be taken seriously among Christians but who made it among US pop "christianity"!) The pope system (not a single isolated pope!) indeed abolished the clear biblically founded worship for new inventions, claims indeed to act like God when speaking ex cathedra, persecuted the possession and distribution of Gods Word among unauthorized lay people, fought against the biblical doctrine of salvation etc.. By that all biblical marks of the antichrist are given. The theatralic emphasis on 42 weeks, the mixing with the outwardly visible governmental beast system and all these overtly literalistic "interpretations" (rather eisegesis!) were all very helpful to pull the wool over the eyes of the audience concerning a realistic amillenalist view on the pope. But I guess you're all just butthurt and need to impress your priests and bishops for some favors. 😂
We in WELS may not pray with you, but we would be happy to pray FOR you! Its very important that this practice has nothing to do with any opinion of ours about your eternal salvation.
I understand and agree. There is no need for WELS Lutherans or anyone else to worship outside of their own church. Ecumenical prayer is wrong, and why some liberals have an incessant desire for it anyway I don't understand
As I watching the video, at 17:14 it was interrupted by an advertisement, which shows a woman at a laptop, saying, "I'm sorry, but I have to say no." It was purely coincidental, and the ad was for a grammar correction service, but I thought it was funny, coming right after the information that in the WELS church, women may have no authority over men.
I'm happy to no more have any arbitrary female emotions from some postmodern worship leaders interfere with my church life and religious experience. it allows me to focus on the core questions and have it all effectively soak in for the benefit of my soul. can't complain
When people ask what i practice for a denomination and I say Lutheran they always ask if I’m apart of the Wisconsin evangelical Lutheran synod and I say no. I tell them I’m apart of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I lived in Wisconsin my entire life doesn’t mean that I am a member of WELS.
I'm confused... 6:23 "...every person...born...inherits a corrupt sinful condition..." and "...born in sin..." yet at 7:00 "...God declared all people of all time 'not guilty' of the crime of sin." Which is it? Can't be both, can it?
Wow! I belong to a relatively small denomination. We will pray with any other christian denomination regardless if we agree with the order of their prayer. It doesn’t help THE CHURCH to be so divisive.
@@aspenenglish4976😂 your feelings don't trump God's doctrine and Christ clear emphasis on diligence with the totality of all of his words! you need me to quote those Bible verses for you?😂
So pretty much a Lutheran from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod would feel home in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. I think I'd feel home in the WELS, just as I do in the LCMS
@@timnewman1172 Many do. It depends on the personality of the congregation of that LCMS member. Ever since SEMINEX, the LCMS has had division within. It's what drove many LCMS congregations to break away and become WELS. There is a sad irony to all of this; In the early days of the Wisconsin Synod, it was the Missouri Synod exposing God's Truth to them that turned them away from becoming more liberal. Sadly, in the 1950s and 60s, the trend in SOME LCMS leadership and congregations was to become more liberal. After many years, this was why the WELS broke fellowship with the LCMS. We still have dialogue over what separates us, and we continue to pray that we can be in fellowship once again.
When I was very young (mid 1960's), our family belonged to a WELS church (it was the only Lutheran church in town). Our family eventually left the church, and with some other families started an American Lutheran Church (now part of the ELCA) congregation. One of the reasons was that the pastor was a member of the John Birch Society and would give lectures on the evils of Communism to the Sunday school classes.
Every district of the LCMS has experienced numerical decline in the past decade - from a 4 percent decline in some places to over 25 percent in others. The counties where the Synod is strongest across the country also tend to be the counties where population is decreasing.2
WELS ministers will say a prayer FOR anyone. They will not however pray with those not in "prayer fellowship", at least not according to official denomination policy. That it does happen in some cases anyway is inevitable.
@@ReadyToHarvest I’m WELS. Why would I pray with someone who sees the Word of God differently? I’ll pray for someone, but not to the Lord with a individual who doesn’t have the same doctrinal faith as me. We’re potentially not praying to the same God anyway. If a person believes let’s say, that their own decision is what made them saved, then we are not in agreement on a core fundamental Christian doctrine. Let’s say that a person believes that Jesus is God and man but only believes he was half God, half man, we wouldn’t be in fellowship either. My uncle is a seventh day Adventist and we are not in agreement on many things. It’s safe and wise to pray with those who are one with you in the Spirit.
The Eternal Security of the believer I hope that every one that reads this will understand that our God is able to keep what we have committed unto Him against that day and that He is able to keep us from falling away. This is just a few things that show once saved always saved or eternal life in Jesus for all that believe on Him as Lord and savior. #1 If you are saved.....You are a Son of God Joh 1/12; Heb 12/6-8; Eph 2/1-3; Joh8/44; Joh 5/26; 1Joh 5/11-12; Joh 3/16 #2 If you are saved.....You are Sealed Eph 4/30; Jude 1/1; Rom 8/9 #3 If you are saved.....You are Succoured 2Cor 6/2; Rom 8/29-30; Eph 1/5; Rom 8/23; 1Joh 3/2; Php 3/20 #4 If you are saved.....You are Sited in heavenly places. Eph 2/6; 2Cor 5/17 #5 If you are saved.....You are Sheltered in His hand. Joh 10/27-30; 1Pet 1/5 #6 If you are saved.....You are sanctified 1Pet 1/1-2; 1The 4/1-4; 2The 2/13; Heb 10/10-14 #7 If you are saved.....You are Saved by Grace Acts 15/1-11; Eph 2/4-5; Eph 2/8-9; 2Tim 1/9 #8 If you are saved.....You are kept by the power of God Rom 1/16; 1Cor 1/18; 1Cor 1/24; 1Cor 2/5; 2Cor 6/7; 2Cor 13/4; 2Tim 1/8; 1Pet 1/5 #9 If they shall fall away? For it is impossible! by two immutable things, God made promise and confirmed it by an oath and it is impossible for God to lie! So then we have an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Heb 6/1-20 This is just a little of what that Bible has to show us on the Eternal Security of the believer. Pro 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding. If you seek and love the truth of God's word then look for: "Sovereign Grace Doctrine" On UA-cam and Facebook, where I am Preaching the Gospel form the King James Bible to this lost and dying world.
As a Presbyterian, I do not believe in OSAS, But I do believe in Perseverance of the saints. I believe that Jesus meant it when He said that He is the good shepherd, and that those that the Father has given Him He will "lose not one" and If atonement were not limited, and all declared innocent, that what you would have is universalism.
@@slamdancer1720 I believe the word of God and if you read it you will know, as it says "lose not one" is the same as OSAS, and as it says "we are kept by the power of God" and that power is in Jesus and his atoning blood, Jesus paid all our sin dept, our sins are washed away, never more to be remembered.
@@sovereigngracedoctrine5774 no, osas is something different, but that comment was more tword the those that believe that you can lose or give up your salvation.
The discussion here is even more interesting than the video. It seems people are relaying their decisions on which branch of Lutheranism to follow, based on which conforms best to their beliefs. The point of primacy is that person's pre-existing beliefs, rather than openness to the Holy Spirit, to guide the choice, and obediently adopt the beliefs that the choice demands. Not sure this puts you in a good place ...
ordained a Baptist ..I ended my career as a servant in the ELCA(organist)....consider myself to be a believer in sacraments rather than ordinances that I was trained in(I was a pastor and graduated from a ABC seminary)...LUTHERAN practice of the LORD'S SUPPER is spot on(IMHO) but videos like this are so silly to me...LUTHERAN doctrines are far too long and complex...(as are most mainline denominations)...have any protestant denominations ever heard the expression.... the devil is in the details???
and that expression actually means you're required to focus diligently onto the details as to avoid having him sit there. not what you wanted to hear but what that idiom actually means in its context. and that's a German background. ELCA is not a Lutheran church but a pagan coven mainly.😂
I left the WELS when their hymns came out as gender-neutral , and the Nicene Creed replaced "who for us MEN and our salvation" with a term not intended by our Church Fathers,especially Luther !!
I am Christian, Lutheran, South African. I love the liturgy but this theological verbosity puts me off. It's like we are going to have to present a theology PhD thesis to argue our way at the second coming. Pheeew!
What the Pharisees did. Too much concern about the correct interpretation of the Law, and Jesus did rebuked them for it. So how did Jesus reduce it all to one sentence? I remember Luther driving himself crazy trying to do the right thing, and his realization over what the path was. But I'm sure he got boggeled down in turf wars with others.
Nah! it's merely replying to all the current social and religious issues prevalent that encounter every pastor that receives guests into his flock. actually, it's what even his confirmands from multigenerational member families ask him because of pop culture, social media and peer influence. but you formal traditionalst love to avoid that despite all implications on the doctrine in catechesis, sermon and church practice but rather enjoy another Latin canticle from the posh and effeminate choir. have fun.
@@SandfordSmytheJesus never rebuked focus on doctrine. to the contrary: we should heed "all my words" as he literally said. Teach them to keep them in the Great Mission Command! He exposed their doctrinal additions, creative misinterpretations and contradiction to the actual and revealed doctrine instead. What a sloppy exegesis from you! but I guess it serves your inner urges best like all of liberal theology does 😂
It IS unfortunate that Joshua chose just one WELS practice (incorrectly quoted in some parts) in order to grab people's attention, because that is often what people remember in the future. I HIGHLY encourage Ready to Harvest and other interested parties to speak with a WELS Pastor directly instead of relying on only website information. This will give you a more fair, balanced assessment of WELS practices.
"I HIGHLY encourage Ready to Harvest and other interested parties to speak with a WELS Pastor directly instead of relying on only website information" Might I encourage you to first advocate for WELS to better represent what you think their position is on their own website then, instead of calling it 'unfortunate' that people take the church's own website at its word?
Fellowship is not easy to summarize in a few simple statements. The focus of the WELS principles is on corporate worship and how to maintain doctrinal purity. How that plays out in the daily lives of individuals requires a longer explanation. That is why I defer to a pastor who is better to prepared to explain it. I would have preferred a title that draws attention in a more positive way to what some Lutherans are willing to do to maintain the purity of the Gospel (the reason for fellowship principles).
So they believe in original sin and Calvinist total depravity thus God must choose you for salvation. Yet you can lose your salvation? God must not be a good judge of character. By they way this isn't a remark on eternal security it's just pointing out a contradiction. Just like infant baptism which is not a thing. You can only be baptized after you're saved after making a full confession of faith and only by full immersion. Also communion does not forgive sins that's roman catholic tradition of the eucharist which is completely unbiblical.
both logical answers are for one unbiblical and further lead to terrible effects when strictly applied. it's one of the mysteries and it's important that you mainly honor the Word and stick to the Gospel center! tell me: you can give a logical explanation of, let's say ... * eternity * creatio ex nihilo * Trinity * God's person and nature * Christ's incarnation * his miracles * the Resurrection * the Ascension * the Holy Spirit * your conversion * Heaven * ... Riddle me those with mere reason and we continue talking predestination after that, Mr. Rationalist! 😂 Biblical faith is not Aristoleanism! It's faith, we can't choose which parts.
@@SidneyJohnson-p2n That is not true. Communion in the LCMS is closed. Even if you are LCMS and plan to visit another LCMS and want to take communion, you must furnish a letter from your home church in advance, or at the very least speak to the pastor before you may partake.
Sounds to me as if the exclusionist view about Truth and salvation essentially means WELS is to be considered a separate religion from all other self-proclaimed Christian sects or denominations. Plain and simple.
“And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.” 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 RSV How is this “clearly fulfilled” by the Papacy? Ridiculous. The Pope is not the anti-Christ, give that a rest…
You're mangling verses together. It can be said that there are 'two divisions' of Antichrist, the false church that precedes him ( spiritual ), and a human male who will be the final Antichrist ( more governmental ). His church, already on earth, has certainly been fulfilled in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, which is merely a slightly more modern manifestation of that old unbroken line of pagan idolatry, with its cultic practices of statue and Mary worship. That is the expressly religious aspect of the Antichrist; the Church of Rome furthermore could easily be merged with Islam and other creeds, including Protestant ones, by the time of Christ's return, looking at Pope Francis' ecumenical endeavours, meaning one world religion. The verse you cited refers to a lone man predicted by the Bible, 'the lawless one'.. that today happens to be the Pope, who literally exalts himself above God, as the Bible likewise prophesied someone would. So yes, the Pope is indeed the very Antichrist.. however, he is the 'religious antichrist', as opposed to what I would call the 'corporate', or political, Antichrist, who will rise, probably fairly soon if you examine world events, and rule all the Earth, possibly in conjuncture with the Pope, assuming he himself is not doing it. This more political Antichrist, who would still have a strong religious element, will likely emerge from the EU or UN, may be Jewish, will enforce his mark of the beast most likely through a microchip, and will rule all the world tyrannically. It's a terrifying prospect, but as always faithful Christians need not fear. But you're wrong when you insist the Pope is not the Antichrist, for he and his abominable seat are. It's just that before long it will not be confined to the Pope
These words are how all Lutherans (and many others) have identified the pope as Antichrist: "he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." For the "temple of God" is identified elsewhere by Paul as the Church. Therefore Antichrist (says Paul) will appear to be a great man in the Church but will secretly bring in all kinds of idolatry while calling himself "God on earth" (which is what the pope's titles really mean). And every article of faith produced by the popes has been nothing but idolatry (and other sins against God and man).
If we could not see the difference between Jesus and the authoritarian denominations, including Rome and Orthodox, some of us couldn't bear to be Christians. But Jesus is who He is, therefore we can believe and trust Him. I was glad to see quite a few people standing up to refute such things as Word-Faith, the televangelists, the NAR, etc. They called themselves "discernment ministries". In spite of the fact that I knew we are all responsible to discern truth from error, I celebrated them, and spent quite a bit of my online time at their sites, listening to their videos, etc. Then I noticed something that disturbed me, which itself required discernment to see, that it wasn't the teaching of the Bible. Almost all of them said that we have *no experience of the Holy Spirit.* Where Jesus said there was something He called *hearing His voice,* the discernment people said that no one hears Jesus's voice. They said that we hear His voice through the Bible, alone, but what they didn't put into so many words, was that they were saying that we understand God's word in the Bible, _mediated by fleshly reasoning, alone._ They denied _any_ experience of God, including the inner experience of *conviction/reproof,* the *comfort* of the *Comforter,* His *guiding us into all truth,* the *Holy Spirit saying "Abba, Father"* within us, causing us to say "Abba, Father" to God. They denied this inner experience of the Holy Spirit, through *denying the "still, small voice"* as an experience of believers. Since we are not prophets, we haven't been promised a still, small voice. But they neglected to say that Elijah wasn't promised one, either, but that this was where he found God, when he was looking for him: not in the whirlwind, but in a still small voice. The fact is that Christians have identified this still, small voice, given to Elijah, with their own experience of the Holy Spirit, since there has been a church. The discernment "stars" gathered together on each other's channels, to talk and scoff about how ridiculous and _unclean_ it is, to say that such as we, have any "experience" of the Holy Spirit, since they'd already (with one voice) identified "experience" as the villain in all of the heresies. But that's what the Bible says, and they are stonewalling it. Most of these online discernment guys, men and women, identify as Lutherans. Some identify as Baptists. Not long ago, one of the "heroes" who presents as a Baptist, claimed that homosexuality, unlike sins like covetousness, with which it is so often mentioned in the Bible, isn't completely cleansed, even after the Cross: even when the blood of Christ is applied. It supposedly still leaves a "stain". But he could have just kept on reading, and he would have read: "...of such (covetous; homosexuals, etc) were some of you; but ye are cleansed..." Or, "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as wool. Though you be red like crimson, you shall be white as snow." Beware of even the discernment community. We are each, personally responsible for discerning, and if we need to ask of God because we lack wisdom, that is what we are told to do. How would we know that God had imparted some wisdom to us, if we had no experience of it? We are responsible for testing the spirits to see if they are of God..If we had no experience of the Holy Spirit, there would be no reason to test the spirits! And of course, we test the teachings, and their spirits, together, by comparing with the word of God. What does God say about it? That is the truth. No theologian is telling the truth, who scoffs at the word of God.
independent fundamental baptist here, all lowercase, part of no movement, per say. I 100 percent endorse this comment and view. God still tells me where I’m wrong AND how to get right. He’s worth every whipping…
@@chrise-ih4ix And I"m sure no one could make you hear anything of substance, no matter what they said. If you don't want to hear the "voice of the Son of God", as Jesus said, you sure won't hear anything that we say. After all, ours is just human testimony. It's like a belly button: everyone's got one. But when we testify to the word of God, if we testify correctly, this is what the Holy Spirit bears witness to: His own word. God's truth. To the degree that we testify of Him, and not just our own thinking, He will bear witness to it. If you want the Holy Spirit to not bear witness to human hearts, you have to invent another god, not the Bible's God. I'm grateful that God does not obey the wishes of people who don't want Him to reveal Himself to mankind. Here is where He divides between those He reveals God to and those He wobt: not some kind of gnostic revelation to an elite, but the Father hides His truth from the worldly wise and prudent, the wise-in-theur-own-eyes, abd reveals His truth to the babes, the ones who are willing to know Him personally. And the w&p can overcome being left out, simply by seeking Him with their whole hearts. He will reveal Himself to anyone who approaches Him in sincerity.
@@chrise-ih4ix John 5:25 KJV - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 10:3 KJV - To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. John 10:27 KJV - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Hebrews 4:7 KJV - Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. Revelation 3:20 KJV - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. John 14:26 KJV - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 15:26 KJV - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 16:7 KJV - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:13 KJV - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Romans 8:15 KJV - For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6 KJV - And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
I got excommunicated (in a non-biblical manner) from Rock of Ages Church in Nashville, Tennessee for asking too many questions about the antisemitic writings of Martin Luther (which the denomination has never condemned).
I messaged a friend from way back who went to WELS seminary, and he said that he doesn't shy away from reckoning that with regret but still continues on in the Luther tradition regardless. I asked my dad, who used to be a Lutheran pastor, and he seemed confused like he didn't know about it.
LCMS has condemned Luther's antisemitic writings - clearly stated on their website. It seems to be that confessional Luther's consider Luther's writings to be as infallible as scripture. - ex LCMS after 27 years and the trauma they caused my autistic son.
I left the WELS church. Just couldn’t buy into the contradictory behaviors allowed and not allowed. The point he made where if someone is gay they are shunned from the church because sin is sin (all sin is equal) but the church will turn a blind eye to adultery, using the Lords name in vain, stealers, abandoning their parents, coveting, the list goes on. I don’t jive with Christian’s that pick and choose which sins they allow and don’t allow.
The WELS does NOT condone ANY sin. We welcome all repentant sinners. It is UNREPETANT sinners that continue in their sin that are shunned. We ALL sin. The difference is in how we react to our sin.
The rejection of what they call Decision theology is unbiblical. Hence churches like this grow by procreation not by proclamation. The convert to Christ is called on to repent which means that this church which teaches that the sinner is passive in salvation is wrong. Paul went from house to house, teaching repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 20:20-21. Sounds like a bunch of elitists.
3:10 floored me. That some Christians could say the words "hinders God" is incredible, that this sect believes certain physical means are necessary for God's grace. Of course most Christians hold the sacraments, but clearly they're symbolic, their absence cannot "hinder" an omnipotent God
@@maxkerr1777 "Rejecting baptism as unbelief" doesn't make any sense to me. Belief is belief, you either believe or you don't. Whether you're baptized or not doesn't prove that you believe. Baptism is a sacrament, like the Eucharist, it's important symbolically but not for our salvation.
@@chegadesuade I hear you. They'd agree salvation is by grace through faith alone. But they connect faith to baptism. It isn't just symbolic to them, God actually does something in baptism. So rejecting baptism is like rejecting the gospel to them. That's just how it registers in their minds. It's something I've had to wrestle with and coming from a WELS background something I am very conscientious about talking with believers who don't think in those terms...
@@maxkerr1777 Thank you for going more in-depth on this subject with me, it's a subject that I really struggle with as a Christian. Many Bible teachers I highly respect also feel that baptism is necessary. I'm not familiar with the WELS point of view in particular, but I think you explained it well. My question is simple: What about all those Christians who've lived and died without even the chance to receive baptism? Is baptism really necessary, if a person repents and believes all the same? Jesus said to go out and baptize the world, but did he ever suggest that someone who dies without baptism is beyond God's grace?
@@chegadesuade Definitely they're saved. Salvation depends on belief in the triune God, who Jesus is, and what he has done. Jesus commanded baptism though, so if you have the opportunity to be baptized why wouldn't you? Perhaps you'd agree with that statement. No one is beyond God's grace.
You hear decision theology and prosperity gospel all the time in the narthex from WELS members. You even hear millennialism from members. We'd be better off to tell members not to listen to "evangelical" preachers than run away from gays.
so, we need now gay pastors also in the WELS contrary to Bible, Creeds and Doctrinal Statements? Why don't you just go full ELCA or some fake LCMS compromise and show some tolerance towards traditionalists staying among themselves and exercising their First Amendment?! good grief (no condoning of decision theology, prosperity gospel or millennialism either. And too cowardly to expose your fellow members to some direct admonition in the narthex and maybe ultimately some well deserved church discipline to save some at least?!) what's going on in WELS?! either zero doctrine or libtardism
I wonder if they ever actually read the answers they provide in the q&a's with a thought to how cherry picked their adherence to scripture seems to someone that isn't a member of their group.
@@chrise-ih4ix It's hard for people to see things from other perspectives. We get so miopic. misty's comment highlighted the fact that most people aren't aware of the Lutheran hermeneutic so it gives the impression of cherry-picked Scriptures. Even more so with pastors who've been raised with a singular approach to Scripture. We use a lot of insider language and don't see the perspective of outsiders. So to members of other churches their answers seem cherrypicked. This goes for all Christian fellowships in my experience. I think the benefit of this channel is to broaden your horizons to meet people where they're at
WELS has a special place in my heart. I was raised Pentecostal (AG), but I knew I wasn’t, myself, a Pentecostal believer. I was just on my own after college. I had tried going to my girlfriend’s church, which was some non-denominational mega church, but it wasn’t right. My girlfriend insisted I find a church (thank God for such women!), so I just picked up a phone book and started calling local churches. The one place a pastor actually answered the phone was a WELS church down the street from me, so I started going there. It was the first time I was actually catechised, and it was wonderful. I ultimately did not stay with WELS, but it was an important moment in my Christian faith, and I am grateful to God, Pastor Paul, and the congregation of St Peter WELS in Modesto, CA.
AMI am q
Thanks Robert. What were your issues with the Pentecostals and the other Churches.
@@metapolitikgedanken612 , to begin with, I am grateful to God for the churches I was raised in. My mother taught me to love reading the Bible, and I had some excellent Sunday School teachers who taught me the value of really studying the Bible and taking my faith seriously.
I went to an AG college. Overall, it was a good experience. But when I looked into the tongues-as-evidence-of-baptism-in-the-holy-spirit doctrine, for instance, asking professors who sincerely believed it to explain the logic and the theological history, I just couldn’t accept it. I was not overly exuberant in my participation in our chapel worship services ( I sometimes raised my hands, never spoke in tongues, didn’t cry, didn’t always sing every repetition of the chorus, etc.), and thus I got labeled as someone who wasn’t baptized in the Holy Spirit, or not even saved. I came to wonder whether the expression of Pentecostal belief I saw around me was more based in personality than in the work of God. And that made me troubled about communion. If these people around me doubted whether I was even a Christian, then it seemed they didn’t take communion that seriously. Paul seemed to say we should, and that there were pretty dire consequences for taking it “unworthily.”
So I wanted to find a church where I could actually believe what they believed, and who would not commune me until they were sure we were in agreement. I wanted a place in which there was no individual performative aspect to worship, where I might be confused as to where my idiosyncratic personality ended and God’s work began. In short, I was looking for liturgy.
Anyway, that’s a pretty short answer to a very complex set of struggles I faced in my early twenties, and I’m sure I’m reading at least some of my later history back into my earlier history, but it’s true enough as a rough sketch. Let me know if that answers your question.
@@robertAGC Thanks for sharing. I get that not every church/ministry is intentionally evil, when they are wrong on doctrine or other things.... But I had the 'willfully ignorant' experience as well. I recall one group that practiced speaking in tongues, but they never insisted that this was somehow the threshold for 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit". Others seem to be very adamant about this. And that in an unhealthy way that it all circles around certain gifts of the spirit... And well, there are also some that practice glossolalia without even being Christian, which should be alarming. To me a lot has it's place, but in it's place and not as something overshadowing the gospel and its purpose. There is also the reverse were anything that is isn't in their church tradition is made suspect a priori... Both extremes are rather autistic and a reason to move on. Looking back, I think that I was too patient with of those churches. And perhaps too demanding in other ways...The thing is that a large amount that had potential seem to have lost the plot entirely. It turns around them and not around Christ anymore. On the other hand I think one has to has patient as well. We come from a fallen world and moving into salvation takes time.
Same here!!! Ascension WELS in Harrisburg, PA was an absolutely grounding experience in my faith with Pastor Ben and the Congregation. They are truly invested in your faith journey and fellowship amongst believers in the church. Doctrinal unity amongst all WELS churches is also beautiful in its own right. I am currently going through LCMS confirmation but I would not hesitate going back to WELS should LCMS ever fall away.
I will say that is refreshing to see that there are still people who are capable of discussing things in a mature and civil manner, in contrast to what passes as discourse in much of the social media today.
The thumbnail "The Lutherans who won't pray with you" is perhaps a bit sensational and provocative, but it's not inaccurate. I did want something that draws people in, but I am hoping it doesn't offend my WELS viewers. This is definitely not the "main thing" about who WELS is, but it certainly is a unique aspect of who they are. (And many viewers come to find out what really is unique about these denominations.) If you want to read a short FAQ answer from WELS about this position, you can do so here: wels.net/faq/praying-with-members-of-other-denominations/
It is something WELS has in common with LCMS
As things transpire, could you cover more details on the UMC split?
@@Michael-bk5nz LCMS does pray with and for other people outside of their denomination.
@@minionman95 Since when? In 2001, LCMS punished several members of its clergy for participating in an ecumenical prayer service to commerate 9-11, and a host of the Lutheran Hour radio series, which is run by the LCMS was fired for defending the clergy
@@Michael-bk5nz no it's not.
I was raised WELS and found a home among the ELS. I'm in my last year of seminary and I must say this was a very accurate presentation of official WELS doctrine and practice.
Is there a confessional basis for the not praying position in contrast to the Missouri Synod?
Hi, a very good friend from high school was the President of the ELS seminary until this year, Reverend Gaylin Schmeling. One of his sons might be a teacher in the Seminary. I'm happy to hear you are preparing for the ministry because of the dire need of more pastors. May God bless you and your future ministry.
@@philobailey5627 thank you for the encouragement. I know Gaylin Schmeling and his son very well.
The WELS church here in Springfield MO had Arlan Schmeling as Pastor back in 1991. Could he be the father of Gaylin Schmeling?
@@truthisbeautiful7492 it's about not giving a false security, a false testimony by giving assurance to members of groups seen as doctrinally questionable by practicing spiritual unity in prayer and other things.
it's to honor the importance of doctrine above practical or emotional questions.
because heresy can directly or indirectly affect the Gospel and by that even eternal salvation.
many non-lutheran doctrines are considered anti-gospel.
it doesn't mean that members of heterodox groups that still believe in the sufficient and atoning sacrifice of Christ aren't going to heaven and thus not in invisible fellowship.
it's considered lucky inconsequence, but one can't look into another heart and you never know what effect heresy has.
the Gospel is just too crucial and important to allow even indirect attacks on it by lesser doctrines indirectly but maybe in the end effectively contradicting it.
in respect of the eternal life of those that observe fellowship actions (including prayer) one refrains from compromising on that.
The position of most confessional Lutherans is that we typically do not refer to confession/absolution as a sacrament, but we won't fight you on it if you do as long as you understand what we mean by sacrament. The Apology of the Augsburg Confession states that the numbering of the sacraments is not an important matter as long as the nature of the sacraments is understood.
The confessions do number it as the third sacrament in more than one place so I don't get the hesitancy.
@@vngelicath1580 It's just a matter of clarity. Note how the Catechism quote in the video delimits the use of earthly elements, where Confession and Absolution doesn't. So the Confessions speaks of two and three, and then also says the number doesn't matter.
For clarity's sake, it's useful to speak of two Sacraments, without denying Confession and Absolution as a mean of grace (but not a Sacrament), just as a matter of definitions.
It's just not a fight that we are really purposed to die on.
@@harktheheral The three-fold definition is arbitrary, you can get any result you want if you craft the definition. The historic Augustinian view is "an outward visible sign of an inward spiritual grace"... 'outward visible sign' isn't nearly as narrow as a 'physical/tangible element'
The minister himself, or the words spoken by him or the ceremony itself apart from any direct material used.. all qualify as outward visible signs to ground inward spiritual grace.
To let the other shoe drop, 'inward spiritual grace' isn't nearly as specific as the forgiveness of sins, but can refer to any gift of God given with/through the Spirit. It's fine to have a stricter definition to distinguish the ceremonial rituals of Christ from that of the Church, but the historic church was never that specific and so it is a Lutheran innovation in the definition of "sacrament."
I go to Saint John WELS.. Fremont Wisconsin.. Established 1854.. Log church til 1908.. Same building built 1908 til today.. In a oak Grove in the country between corn fields.. We are getting a green pastor fresh out of seminary.. 🙏
@@richardfrerks8712 building, age, tradition, ... doesn't count above doctrine. and that you need to understand in detail and be able to explain correctly to your family.
Ray: as a WELS evangelist, your research was "spot on".
Very informative video. I’m a member of an LCMS congregation. I consider the differences between the WELS and the LCMS minor enough that I would become a WELS member if there were no LCMS congregation present where I live.
There is no WELS congregation within 100 miles of my city, and I know a few WELS members who transferred here for work and attend my church and receive the Sacrament. My pastor is happy to minister to them as they would otherwise be doing without.
Best channel on Church and denomination polity there is. Worthy of a seminary course.
I just joined a WELS church. I grew up elca, and found myself straying from it, I feel like a found home
Thankyou for the fair and accurate depiction of WELS positions.
I was raised WELS and happy for it. Now, after nearly forty-five years since my confirmation, I consider myself a lifelong Lutheran!
When on business trips, I seek out one of our sister congregations and when none are available or close enough, I seek out an LCMS. Sometimes I go whatever is closest, but consider it a privilege to worship in a Lutheran congregation, regardless of Synod!
Very good message about WELS. I grew up in WELS, my father was a WELS pastor. I attended WELS grade school, high school and a brief stint at the WELS college. I changed to the LCMS synod because there are no WELS churches in the area that I live. I have found very little difference between the two Synods. Thanks for your information.
Where I live I have to drive 45 minutes to go to wels church, the main reason the two separated is the disagreements on holy communion, and who can be pastors
@@kwhitewinter7088more issues than just that
In my opinion the difference between wels and LCMS is trivial. Wisconsin synod is so obsessed with orthodoxy and purity, it's hard actually to find the gospel. I'm with LCMS
The WELS and LCMS are very similar Lutheran bodies, but share 3 main theological differences of which one of them is their view on church fellowship. The WELS believes in all fellowship is virtually identical including prayer whereas the LCMS believes in altar and pulpit fellowship for reception of communion as a special sort of fellowship only. The WELS also does not permit women sufferage in matters of congregational polity whereas the LCMS does. Lastly, the LCMS believes in divine appointment and institution of the pastoral office whereas the WELS does not draw this distinction of the pastoral office.
Ummm, the LCMS is only itself. Doesn't reccognizae anyone else as Lutheran or even Christian. Everyone is going to hell except them.
Evangelical Lutheran Church of America strives to bring in more and more Lutherans and never mind little differences. Trust in Jesus.
ELCA took in Christians kicked out of the Missouri Synod. BTW, congrats to narrator for correctly pronoucing Misery Synod.
I prefer the Missouri synod over the Wisconsin synod
@@scottmueller2871Correct application of the Bible should supercede preference. I pray the LCMS roots out their false doctrine.
@@trumpiekeith8531 the wels church has a lot of corruption it's all about money and people who have money
Please elaborate more curious to your answers ?
This is definitely real, confessional Lutheranism. A rarity today. I have always been bothered by the reality that a typical WELS minister won't participate in public prayer with ministers of other denominations, but I have a grudging respect for their commitment to the historic faith that they profess.
But ministers of what other denominations? The ELCA?.. Episcopalians?.. Roman Catholics? Where do you draw the line? Nor do I understand the need to grandstand or make a point of praying with those outside one's own church. Why not just pray for them? Far better option
@@seansweeney8911 praying with others is hardly grandstanding. If I took that attitude, there would be a whole lot of people that I would simply refuse to pray with because they are not Catholics. I get asked to pray with people all the time. Friday I will preach the funeral of someone I knew who wasn't even Catholic, because my presence was requested.
That's Ministry and that's prayer, that's Christian outreach. It doesn't mean that we agree with the doctrines and sometimes the philosophy or what an old mentor of mine used to call the thought-theology of some of the denominations we're going to encounter.
But I live in the South, if I refuse to pray with Protestants I'm going to be telling a lot of people that they aren't good enough for me to pray with them and for them, because for a lot of folks, your public expression of praying for them and your telling them that "I'm going to pray for you" has to go a little further than simply saying you're going to pray for them. You have to actually do it, and sometimes it's best to actually do it, publicly... If you're in Ministry it's not just a matter of show.
@@DavidOatney It would appear that you are a Catholic; therefore you probably don’t take seriously Christ’s call to ‘come out from among them, and be ye separate’ ( no ecumenism ). Furthermore, if you’re Catholic, do you even recognise the legitimacy of the Protestant ministry? And if you are in fact a Prod, then you’re a right traitor
@@seansweeney8911 actually we do take that call seriously, the only place you're going to come if you're answering that call is toward Holy Mother Church and not away from her. However, we also recognize that we were all once part of the same Church, and in an indirect way we still are. We also recognize the dignity of people who are made in the image and likeness of God, so even if you are Protestant, God loves you, he cares for you, He has the power to save you, Christ died for you just the same. Your theological wrongness doesn't change that, we'll leave God to judge it.
I'm not sure what you mean by "legitimacy" when it comes to Protestant ministry. Catholics recognize ordained ministry, Holy Orders, as a sacrament. Some Protestant denominations do, but the majority do not, including Lutherans. So in that sense, we can't recognize the legitimacy of protestant Ministry because they don't recognize the legitimacy of their own Ministry in the way that we would. We do recognize that they are legitimately ordained or set apart for Ministry according to the rules of their own denomination. In certain cases, a Protestant Minister could even preside over a Catholic wedding ceremony, provided the proper dispensations for that are obtained.
I don't. The idea that the Bible is the inerrant word of God is proven wrong with a simple reading of the Bible. It's a total cop out.
Born and raised WELS - excellent research. Finding the "women communing women" requires some deep digging indeed!
I’m ordained in the Presbyterian Church in America and I enjoy your videos. The Lord be with you.
The difference between a WELS church and an ELCA church is so vast you almost wonder if they are even worshiping the same god.
This is why WELS doesn't pray with them.
WELS has always been sound in doctrine
@@joykeebler1916 am a WELS member and a historian. Early in the history of the Wisconsin Synod, Missouri Synod leaders helped get her doctrinal house in order. Sadly, they split after Missouri went astray.
The two synods are now in doctrinal discussions again. I hope and pray that God, through the WELS, will put the LCMS back on the right path.
ELCA is a pagan coven by now.
no, some female pastrix already performed such rituals.
it's the enemies of Christianity assembling there plus some paying members that didn't get the memo yet 😂
That's because we don't. ELCA clearly worship the same things as global material cult
I went to a wels school growing up even though I was reformed and not a part of their church. The issue with not praying with others is not enforced or really taught. We all prayed together all the time so while it is in their forms no one really follows it and most would outright disagree with it.
I’ve heard stories of WELS pastors not doing group prayers at school shooting because of their stance.
I have no issue with you being theologically conservative. I’m ELCA but used to be LCMS. It’s ones own beliefs and that’s fine but why would you not want to be part of your Christian community in prayer during terrible things like mass murder or natural disasters?
@@reubensvlogchannel8565Why? Because we don't agree with false doctrine. ELCA is problematic because they hold so many unbiblical doctrines.
it's sad if people are so dishonest and doctrine not relevant in catechesis and daily life.
why don't they just convert to lcms but don't put up a very dishonest show?!
Thank you so much for sharing this video. I've been a member of a WELS church for years, but never really understood it.
😂 why did your pastor do such a bad job? or are you avoiding regular fellowship?!
you should contact him and if he's worth his money he'd even visit at home to explain.
besides that your church has plenty of literature at northwestern publishing house available for countless topics. I'd recommend "THIS WE BELIEVE - Questions and Answers" for a start.
I grew up in Barnwell County, SC where there are no Lutheran Churches, so Lutherans always seemed just short of Creatures from another planet. I have only visited ELCA churches and know of the existence of the Wisconsin Synod, so this episodes was enlightening. Thank you.
Love this channel. I would be interested in your take on the Swedish and/or Finnish Apostolic Lutheran Church
I'm currently at the WELS college for ministry where all called workers (teachers, pastors, and staff ministers) are trained and the specific teaching is that women shouldn't teach classes from scriptural authority like doctrinal classes over men
but look at all the factually female leaders as specialists in synod admin projects, as profs in college, as counselors at wlcfs, ... etc.
and why do so many profs get additional or even first degrees lately from not only baptist schools but very often from jesuit schools even?
and first any criticism of outer form and institutions was shunned and now wokies from disbanded "church and change" circles dominate synod media and woke language and topics make huge inroads
preserve your synod if you want to keep it for another generation! it's urgent
I watched your Lutheran outliers video, and I can honestly say ELDoNA deserves a video of its own rather than simply a mention in passing. I’d be happy to help with research.
What is that??
@@mikezeke7041
The ELDoNA is a small confessional Lutheran denomination centered in Malone, Texas. There’s only 30 churches so a lot of people haven’t heard of it.
I attend an ELDoNA affiliated congregation online as an observer. But I do plan to begin catechesis and become and official member at some point.
@Dora Ashby didn't the ELDONA recently break apart?
I disagree with WELS on a number of points, but I'm impressed by the articulateness with which they define their positions.
😂 and how articulate are you in your disagreements? and which would these be? and what authoritative sources from the Bible could you present for these?
or are there other factors to be considered?😊
@@chrise-ih4ix You "liked" your own comment?
@@chrise-ih4ix and he gives no explanation. Ha ha.
Another great report. Thanks for the video. 👍
Thanks again for a great video! As a lifelong WELS member who went to a WELS high school, I can affirm that you accurately portrayed the doctrine of the WELS.
While the WELS can seem a little overboard in some doctrines (such as concerning church fellowship and the role of women in the church), they take those more conservative stances to help defend against theologically liberal ideas. While I personally don't have a problem praying with followers of Jesus who are outside of the WELS, I appreciate the fact that the WELS as an organization does not pray with other denominations to help protect against difficult situations where another denomination begins teaching non-Biblical doctrine and the WELS is in partial cooperation with that denominations, if that makes sense.
The role of women in church has always been more difficult for me to grapple with, as I love many of my sisters in Christ and have grown in my own faith from the examples of faith present in many WELS women. However, as long as the men are loving and respectful of their sisters in the church (which sinful men will always need to work on), this doctrinal stance has caused little strife within congregations.
If anyone has questions about life in the WELS, feel free to reply!
Edit: One big thing I wanted to mention about the WELS is that they have one of the best educational tracks for pastors that I know of. You can be sure that every WELS pastor has completed 8 years of college-level education (4 undergrad, 4 graduate) that includes deep dives into theology and the languages of the Bible. While not all pastors are made equal, the vast majority of WELS pastors are extremely knowledgeable in all things Scripture and are a wealth of information. This can lead to some more "academic" sermons, but you can be sure that everything said in those sermons is Biblically accurate.
Contemplating membership. Wonderful pastor, but his 'CCT foundations course' videos are corny & dated. Wondering how strict they are on members who attend LCMS while traveling? WELS are spread thin here. And on those who may doubt the literal "24 hr" creation days and a young earth, no dinosaurs. Thanks
@@kevinkassil6038While traveling it's not always possible to find a WELS church and most would encourage attendance at LCMS along with an encouragement to check what is said against scripture. However, another new option would be to attend service online. Several WELS churches offer online service that could be attended during travel.
@@kevinkassil6038😂😂 what issues do you have with the literal 24 hours?
you don't believe in an almighty God?
darwinism has so many holes in it also from an academic viewpoint
I have very little interest in any of the novelties from the last 150 years. The old synodical conference was fundamentally sound and reflects my current confession.
Most of their theology is consistent with what all Lutherans would affirm. I think that differences occur due to where the line should be drawn in defining what they refer to as literalistic interpretations of the Bible. For example, they say that literalistic approaches ignore context and the use of symbolic language, but many Lutherans from other denominations would say that this is exactly what they are doing when they insist that the earth was created in 144 hours and is only a few thousand years old, and no other views on this matter are consistent with Christianity. Their belief that they alone have the only correct interpretation of all of scripture seems to be the basis for why they believe that they shouldn't pray or worship with others outside of the WELS.
The LCMS, the other major confessional Lutheran fellowship in the United States, also holds to and requires a belief in a literal six day creation.
The LCMS does not require belief in what is called Young Earth Creationism, but there is little point in subscribing to a view of the Earth as being hundreds of millions of years old while rejecting evolution and holding to a literal creation week.
@@RepublicofE exactly, and that literal week interpretation is very important to us in terms of the Exegesis of the text. I don't hold a firm position on earth age because I simply don't feel the need to speculate on it, but will gladly hold to the literal week, since it is what the syntax of the Scriptures in question seem to point to
@@matthewbless3335 so I guess you also believe in the ages of persons and numbers of soldiers in battles, etc? They always seemed absurd to me, or poetic license if you will. Not really "real".
Taking your statement into consideration, WELS on the topic of Christian fellowship sounds ‘worse’ let alone not to far off from Catholics who believe that only the Roman Catholic Church (those who are in submit to the Bishop of Rome) is the “one holy catholic and apostolic church” and no other denomination is part of that “one holy catholic and apostolic church.”
@@voxveritas333 I'm not really sure I have much reason not to, I suppose, but it depends on the genre in the text. For instance, the numbers in Revelation are, of course, deeply symbolic. In the Genesis text, it's written syntactically as a historical text, and it is nowhere contradicted that it should be read as such, so as an exegete, I have no choice other than to take it at face value
As a little bit of contemporary relevancy, I'd like to point out that the only significant presence of confessional Lutheranism in Ukraine, as well as the largest example of Eastern Rite Lutheranism, is a WELS ecumenical partner denomination.
There is a small denomination affiliated with Missouri as well. I can't remember the name unfortunately off the top of my head, but I do know some missionaries who were over there, not sure what they're doing now though
@@matthewbless3335 You're probably thinking of the AALC.
@@matthewbless3335 Although like the WELS the LCMS also has ecumenical partner church bodies around the world.
There are two LCMS partner denominations in Russia and I believe they are Eastern Rite. However they are pretty small compared to the WELS Ukraine partner.
@@RepublicofE can't be AALC, because they're in the ILC with us. Not sure what I was thinking of. Either way, I do know we have Missouri Synod missionaries in the country for sure.
A rare treat to read such an interest tidbit in a UA-cam comments section
Very well researched.
They sound Based. I like them already
As a WELS seminarian, I appreiate this comment.
why don't you ask one of their local pastors to sit down for a talk about their church and worship services?
Try to make a review on Russian Old Believers :)
As a WELS member I wouldnt say private confession is unknown it is not mandatory. It is, however encouraged to privately confess our sins both to our pastor and our brothers in Christ.
I have a short attention span, so I lost you a quarter of the way through. But, this is excellent. If I were to have the opportunity to explain to someone my church, I would point this to them. It's a heavy duty explanation, perfectly articulated, but phew! Makes your brain swirl .
😂😂😂 it's a discipline question. and your choices of recreational media consumption create issues with the attention span. it's anyway providing you only with blasphemy. so what did you gain and why not try a change.
the muslims call us Christians the "book believers".
So, it fits our faith to be a bit more cerebral and quite literate!
Christ is called the WORD of God! not the theater of God
My mother was LCA [?] and when she retired, the closest Lutheran church was Missouri Synod. No problems. It was an area with many retired folks, looking for a Lutheran church. She took communion there, and kidnapped me one Sunday for communion. No questions about about passing the test to become Missouri Synod. I liked the Pastor. What does it say about the big shots playing politics over who is the more correct Lutheran? Sounds like the Pharisees to me.
😂😂😂 you seem to hate God's Word and its emphasis on honoring every word of it.
which boils down to what is called doctrine.
so sad all these people attending for outward and emotional reasons while despising openly the original reason and doctrinal content of a church and its beliefs
They are one of the more conservative Lutheran Church. I really like that a lot. I visited their Dix Hills, Long Island, New York. Very nice Church, very Christian, wonderful church.
Once again, good job. April 21. 2022
As a former WELS member of 20 years, I found this video to be accurate, but I would consider it a starting point for WELS congregations you would encounter in real life. Some are very much as described here, but driven by church decline in general many tend to be a bit gimmicky, try to appear trendy, and try a bit too hard to "do God a favor." Many have gone so far as to appear non-denominational to increase curb appeal (even dropping "Lutheran" from their shingle). They would argue that the name "Lutheran" has been so abused by the likes of the ELCA that they are better off without it, but the same could be said of the term "Christian." They used to be quite homogeneous, but they appear more like the LCMS in increasing heterogeneity, but the big difference is that the WELS tends to be "low church" in worship compared to the LCMS. It's a sad tale for both church bodies; I often lament that if they would just be the church instead of trying to "help God" all the time, and let God help them, things would be better overall. Still, they are the best thing going in my opinion for solid orthodox Christianity.
I think similarly to the more conservative Lutheran denominations.
I'm still on the fence about infant baptism though.
They might kick me out over my view on the creation week as well.
Thanx, Joshua 🌹🌹🌹🌹
Another great lesson
Again, wonderfully done with 1 small correction , pertaining to pronunciation of the city of Meqoun , it is pronounced Mec-kwon not mee-kon. It is a few miles north of Milwaukee, WI. 😎
been there?
Good summary and informational. I'm still Baptist though, by some of same scriptures WELS uses for their views. 🤷♂
Why did the WELS break off altar and pulpit fellowship with LCMS?
because lcms adhers to liberal heresy and practice and wasn't able to return to the old shared ways once given in the Synodical Conference
a tale of two synods - northwestern publishing house
To the REPLY of simply "heresy", please provide specific example(s) of such, e.g., the LCMS allowing women to vote in Voters Meetings, etc. Thank you.
Is this the denomination that the guy from Lutheran Satire belongs to?
No, Lutheran Satire pastor is LCMS.
The Lord's supper is closed or only given to those in fellowship with Wels? Could Baptists and Presbyterians be included in that fellowship list?
No, WELS only fellowships with a certain set of Lutheran denominations. The only other one in the US is the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS)
Baptist doctrine is considered a heretic attack on the free Gospel!
you need to do something instead of being the weak recipient of forgiveness via the channel of the Sacraments and everything is only seen as symbolic in your tradition.
basically an early form of Bible criticism in seemingly"holy" garments.
that's abhorrent to us Lutherans.
not possible to have that at the Lord's table where Christs very body and blood are miraculously present in, with and under bread and wine.
Don't you know that many got bodily sick, some even died according to the Bible for not discerning the body and blood correctly but anyhow unworthily stepping forward to the Lord's Supper?
That's what the apostle said in God's Word!
Should they not warn you and take care of your safety and not allow every heretic untested to the Lords table just over some fuzzy ecumenical feelings?
that would be lacking love for first the Word of God (mainly also the Gospel part in it!) and secondly your own bodily safety!
are you asking for such an inconsiderate and sloppy attitude in church?! it's God's Word and Christs own body and blood and your fellow sinners for whom he died on the cross! Discernment!
Wounderful!
😊
Some confusion may be produced with the discussion of the Mark of the Beast right after the discussion of the Antichrist.
It is my understanding that historic Lutheran orthodoxy has never connected "the Beast" or his mark to the Antichrist. The treatment of the Antichrist and the Beast as the same entity was something invented by millenial revivalists to my knowledge.
Daniel 7, Revelation 13. Who else could it be? Serious question, just want your view.
@@Avery_F I'm afraid I'm not sophisticated enough in Lutheran escatology to really answer your question in depth.
All I know is that Lutherans reject the idea of the Antichrist being a man or being who establishes rule over the Earth to repress Christianity everywhere. Lutherans consider the Antichrist to be somebody who would have a legitimate office within the church herself to establish hegemony of false teaching, which is why Lutherans point to the Papacy as the Antichrist rather than a political leader of a non-church nature.
On the Power of and Primacy of the Pope is a good text to consult for a brief summary of this.
Importantly, the primary text from which the Lutheran understanding of the Antichrist is drawn is not Daniel or Revelation, but 2 Tessalonians.
And just like that, your answer disappeared. Thanks, friend.
I'm not a Lutheran, but if I had to be: I think I'd fit better with the LCMS then WELS.
WELS refusing to allow prayer with other Christian denominations is a bit too much for my liking, as well as the strangeness of seeing only one office of the Church when I'm convinced that the Scripture does teach of 2 (Elder and Deacon) explicitly ordained offices for the Church.
WELS is a bit strange to me, but I would be willing to commune with them, although they seem unwilling to commune with me.
It is the LCMS that only sees one office of the church (Pastor) - WELS has staff ministers (deacons) and teachers as called workers as well. If you're willing to commune with someone who you aren't in doctrinal agreement with, you are right not to go to either LCMS or WELS, as they both practice Close (not Closed) communion.
@@larrythompson866 I mean according to this video on the LCMS: they do recognize Deacons as distinct from the Pastor/Bishop of a local Church: ua-cam.com/video/Xy7WuLuIXig/v-deo.html
I don't commune with people where I have major doctrinal disagreements, but I am willing to recognize and take communion with Christians whom disagree with me on secondary issues. I am also more than happy to pray to Christ with those same people who worship the Lord our God, even if they come from a denomination different to my own for secondary disagreements.
Let me explain the prayer thing, and I hope others see my comment. WELS do not support ecumenical prayer, meaning, if you're a Protestant, prayer with Catholics, or even Jews or Muslims. This is just Biblical, as the Scriptures say to have no prayer with unbelievers or distorters of the faith. The Bible promises that such prayers go unreceived and unanswered by God. Prayer with other born again Christians might by permitted by much of the Wisconsin Synod, I'm not sure. If you yourself would only ever engage in that type of prayer, with born again Christians in whatever your own church may be or such believers outside of it, then you probably have nothing to fear from WELS. I'm not totally clear on whom they restrict inter faith prayer to, aside from Catholics and non Christians, and I'm equally unclear as to what your limits for interfaith prayer are
@@seansweeney8911 everyone not in full doctrinal fellowship. because any heresy usually in the end attacks the gospel. and that's eternal life.
so before not hurting other Christian feelings it's rather important to emphasize they first need to get the entirety of their set of doctrines straight.
hurt feelings can be mended, eternal life is of higer urgency and importance.
therefore bear no false witness by pretending everything is fine and proceeding to shared spiritual life like normal.
I was baptized WELS, grew up WELS, went to WELS grade schools and high school, was confirmed and married in a WELS church.
I admire the insistence on biblical foundation for church doctrine, and I think they have the doctrine of Justification nailed down. But the issue of the souls of dead babies caused me to leave the church for the LCMS. There comes a point where the thirst for purity turns into legalism and the trees are obscured by the forest. My Jesus willingly surrendered His position in heaven and willingly took on humanity, willingly lived among us, and willingly gave Himself up as the only possible perfect sacrifice to redeem us from our lost condition. He conquered sin and the devil and returned to heaven triumphant. And He did all that out of perfect love and grace. My perfect loving Jesus is not skipping the souls of dead infants across the lake of fire to spend eternity in screeching torment. And my pure doctrinal stance on the matter is the totality of the scriptures.
The legal approach leaves me cold, as if Christianity were an exercise in pursuit of a law degree. My experience left me cold. The WELS is a head church, struggling to find its heart, let alone reaching out with its hands.
My experience with the LCMS has been a breath of fresh air. Much of what I found lacking in the WELS I have been blessed to find there.
I still have issues with confessional Lutheranism, but I have resigned myself that I will probably never find a church that aligns perfectly with my beliefs. For now, I have a happy home.
I was baptized, grew up in, and confirmed in the ELCA. I came from the other side of things, where today’s ELCA is almost an “anything goes” church. To turn your phrase, it may be a heart church that has lost its head. While I appreciate that they want to welcome others to Christ, they’ve done so by twisting or even ignoring scripture instead of laying out what God wants of us. I, too, am now an LCMS member, and I, too, have found it a breath of fresh air.
I realize I may be unintentionally poking a hornet’s nest here, but something you said resonated with me. I used to be a Presbyterian, then a LCMS member. I started to notice eventually that it does seem that no church ever matches 100% what I or anyone else believes, like you said. That started me thinking that maybe that’s why there are so many denominations. And maybe it’s not about what I think is correct. That train of thought ultimately led me to the realization that Jesus actually started a visible Church. And therefore I am now Catholic. Just food for thought. God bless!
@@bethanyann1060 Thank. You.
The doctrine is right. Unfortunately the practice has been contaminated with populist evangelicalism.
What church did you go to? I was at Cross of Christ in Coon Rapids, MN.
I beleive the WELLS seminary is in Watertown Wisconsin
It is in Mequon, though it was in Watertown when it was founded.
I could never understand the idea that God could save unborn children but as soon as they're out of the womb an unbaptized baby goes to hell.
3:10 "Hinders God's saving desire to win hearts to himself"
I always find phrases like this weird - how can an all-powerful being be hindered in anything, especially hindered in even desire. I can't be the only one who notices stuff like this.
Why is omnipotence so conditional?
Because we have the power to actually hinder people from wanting to hear more about what God has to say. it is we who are in the way. God did not create us to be robots and so he allows us to do what we do down here and even get away with it at times.(only not in the end).
👍👍🙏 Conservative is the best way to go.
It is inconceivable to me how people can deny evolution and see the 6 days description as literal.
Evaluation is mathmaticatly almost impossible. It is a good way to see small changes in species, though.
@@sspashleymae24 I read a study claiming all humans have a common ancestor 4000 years ago based on math models. Which is obvious nonsense. Evolution is super well documented but you refuse to see the evidence.
@@napoleonfeanor😂 you can't document things that happened many years before you lived.
you can only infer by scientific tools. the theory of evolution is not core MINT science but more like history of biology and geology etc.
history is always a blurry department among other academia.
especially where we don't have written accounts.
it's even older than prehistoric questions that are discussed here.
Do you believe in a God at all? Does he have properties like being almighty or being capable of revealing himself accurately to us concerning topics? If so, you wouldn't be allowed to claim any limitations on his statements in revelations to us. The Bible seems to fit that shoe.
No one has proven common descent so far, all lifeforms bridging to other ones, like archaeopteryx have turned out as kind of paleological cul de sacs and not the missing links postulated by Darwin.
you can't develop cells or cell cores and all their intricate cellular or molecular machines over millions of years, nothing there's is dispensable. you need the full set from the get go for a viable cell that is replicable. the Miller experiment was useless. it produced only a useless mix of "anti-life" molecules and needed a very elaborate laboratory setting to have that unviable outcome. real organisms require a different type of molecules. everything is so much on the hypothetical, on the theory level. but Miller is still paraded around as the big breakthrough it isn't. So every other research and funny anthropological ideas. it's actually quite some quack quota, although quite elitist circles.
the jury is still out on that matter and as we have now way more data, high powered microscopes, etc. than in Darwins times, ... it actually looks meek for classic common descent, molecular evolution etc.
Why else did academia early on switch to "synthetic evolution" as the main thing taught?
Darwin was mainly on the hypothetical journey.
his Galapagos finches? mere intra-species micro evolution, adaption to environmental circumstances, maybe even only playing out of several different preexisting genetic options. there's genetic switches about which Darwin didn't know a thing. Genes? not a word in his texts.
Mendel though was a Christian again. Mendel rules todays industry and academia.
Finches? irrelevant. like different breeds of dogs. you can rebreed them back to their wolf-like ancestors.
@@napoleonfeanor ua-cam.com/video/7-1nXb5uH8Q/v-deo.html Darwins Dilemma - Illustra Media. they have a lot more.
@chrise-ih4ix silly copy pasta from evangelicals who take everything literally and have no idea about actual biology. Evolution has long been observed in real life,too.
In the 1990s and early 2000s, there were a lot of Lutherans who switched from the LCMS to the WELS due to liberal trends within the LCMS.
It's likely that there are a lot of WELS members who privately disagree with their doctrine of prayer fellowship, but who joined because they were seen as a more conservative alternative to the LCMS.
Liberal trends? What liberal trends? It is true that WELS is the more conservative of the two, but LCMS cab hardly be considered liberal, in fact, it calls itself 'fundamentalist' even though this term is not normally associated with Lutheranism
@@Michael-bk5nz I've never heard of the LCMS referring to itself as fundamentalist. Where are you getting that?
Keep in mind that in confessional Lutheranism anything that tends toward ecumenicism is also considered liberalizing. Watering down of the doctrine of closed communion and other practices that make a church seemingly more friendly to closet evangelicals would be an example.
@@Michael-bk5nz again, no we don't. We use the term Confessional, not "fundamentalist." I'm not sure where you're getting your info from, but it's incorrect.
@@matthewbless3335 I don't know that the national denomination uses the term, but I attended several LCMS churches from 1981-1993 and I met several members who did not object to that term being used to describe LCMS beliefs due to the position in support of young Earth creationism (an idea that originated among 7th Day Adventists and was popularized by an LCMS pastor in 1963)
@@RepublicofE It like the WELS preaches the “one true church” doctrine similar to the Catholics and Orthodox, although the former prays with other denominations. If a Christian affirmed the apostles creed, and believes that the Bible is the word of God for all people, then they are a Christian.
The WELS gives off cultish vibes
A Lutheran.affirm Luther and the bible guides my path...
I don’t understand Lutherans who don’t make the sign of the Cross. The catechism says repeatedly, “…make the sign of the cross and say.” Are you afraid of the Baptists or Reformed or what? ;)
and then? 😂
Some do, some don't. It can vary inside a congregation.
In my church, we never did the sign of the cross because that was something showy that the Catholics do lol.
You should do a breakdown of the christian sects and relgions from the Handbook of Denominations and show where the beginning of Christianity started. A great book done by secular unbiased Historians who were not religious.
I think he is doing his own take on this issue.
how is a secular person unbiased? you seem to be a scientism cultist.
Secularism is an aggressive pseudoreligion in severe competition with Christianity.
BTW: WELS is closest to the origins. Why?
Because the Lutheran reformation was back then the movement focused most intense on justifying everything from the ancient church fathers for their romish opponents and the emperor.
Besides of course proving everything from the Holy Scripture first, which started the whole thing from the get go.
And confessional Lutheranism mainly and mostly defines itself by clinging explicitly to the confessional Lutheran Creeds formulated during that epoch five centuries ago as compiled in the Book of Concord.
So, as others have done before: you can call them the true Catholic Apostolic church. Minus the romish and medieval part of course.
Also Lutherans produced church historians like Pelikan, Bente. Other denominations respect their works a lot.
I was denied communion at a WELS church.
good! God's Word warns that many fell ill, some even died for partaking unworthily and really not understanding what they have in front of them.
It's the Lords very blood and body, correctly to be discerned by those who participate.
it's not an emotional happening, it's Gods son present under bread and wine and dangerous.
God is jealous the Bible says.
You should thank them for not risking your bodily health as the Bible warns.
Instead they honor the Gospel, God's Word and your safety.
Who knows what funny unbiblical things you were taught in a church not adhering to the full teachings of the Bible as they're compiled diligently in the Book of Concord!
Who knows what deep misconceptions popular culture deeply and effectively instilled in your belief system over the span of your religious biography so far!
You want them to risk your health and God's wrath over that?
do sedevacantism!! Groups like CMRI, IMBC, RCI, etc.
Oh and for these Baptists who say well the thief! The thief. Wrong. At that time the Lord had not yet fulfilled his mission (Nicene creed) and the great commission had not been given yet. So there. Baptism is a must. Water and the word always go together-faith.
I don't understand how Lutherans can claim the papacy as the antichrist, as in the majority of verses referencing the antichrist state in no uncertain terms that the antichrist would deny Jesus as the Christ, something which the Papacy very obviously does not do.
The only defense I've heard is that the antichrist of Paul's letters is completely different and not at all related to the antichrist of Revelations, but that seems like a baseless assertion that would only be made if you held to a position that contradicts scripture and you aren't willing to drop it so you desperately look for any excuse
The last anti-Christ will be believed to be the Messiah.
the pope declared himself to bring doctrine instead of Christs Words. There you have it.
with bringing unevangelical works righteousness he also replaced the right worship of God in the temple, in the place of worship.
also Christology wasn't unaffected
You need to read Thessalonians, too!
it's all there.
@@joycegreer9391 says who?!😂
Me neither. I could only suppose they don't know how to read or brought this to inspire fear in order to legitimize themselves. Saint Paul talks about a great apostasy followed by the apparition of the Antichrist when the end of the world is near. He would be one man claiming to be God while rejecting the true one and demanding to be worshipped. It goes in hand with what Saint John says in Revelations about the beast: it would be worshipped, blaspheme against God, operate wonders, establish a worldwide government and persecute Christians. God will give him power to make war for 42 months, Christ himself will defeat him and then comes the Final Judgement. Most theologians and doctors of the Church agree the beast and the Antichrist are the same person. Those are signs of the end.
However, some protestants insist that the Pope is the Antichrist, which is ridiculous. According to them, the Antichrist isn't one man, but hundreds of them (?).
Well, there is no Great Apostasy going on, there have been Popes for almost 2000 years, and yet none of them has established a world government, he isn't worshipped by most of humanity, isn't persecuting Christians, doesn't claim to be God and Christ still hasn't returned to defeat him/them 😂😂😂
I guess it's easier to maintain a ludicrous "theology" like this than just admitting they were wrong.
@@raphaelportelinha1738 The beast is an absolute separate (though often collaborating) entity. It rather reflects authoritarian regimes.
"42 months" and other numbers, colors, horses, things and persons are so obviously apocalyptic symbols like the psalmists poetry. That's nothing like e.g. the literal 24 hours of the 6 day creation which gives other linguistic impressions and was drafted in the style of an Egyptian court official that meticulously noted down historical events. Apocalyptic text portions, the books of wisdom etc. completely deviate for obvious reasons from that language.
Therefore amillenalism is the only reasonable eschatological exegesis of the Bible for sincere believers.
(Dispensationalism was financed and promoted by extremely shady unbelievers like Jekyll Island figure Untermyer, Darby got inspired as a lawyer (!) not as a theologian by old jesuit heresies he found in the dark corners of the local library, Scofield was a criminal in his earlier life, all no figures to be taken seriously among Christians but who made it among US pop "christianity"!)
The pope system (not a single isolated pope!) indeed abolished the clear biblically founded worship for new inventions, claims indeed to act like God when speaking ex cathedra, persecuted the possession and distribution of Gods Word among unauthorized lay people, fought against the biblical doctrine of salvation etc..
By that all biblical marks of the antichrist are given.
The theatralic emphasis on 42 weeks, the mixing with the outwardly visible governmental beast system and all these overtly literalistic "interpretations" (rather eisegesis!) were all very helpful to pull the wool over the eyes of the audience concerning a realistic amillenalist view on the pope.
But I guess you're all just butthurt and need to impress your priests and bishops for some favors. 😂
We in WELS may not pray with you, but we would be happy to pray FOR you! Its very important that this practice has nothing to do with any opinion of ours about your eternal salvation.
I understand and agree. There is no need for WELS Lutherans or anyone else to worship outside of their own church. Ecumenical prayer is wrong, and why some liberals have an incessant desire for it anyway I don't understand
We in the WELS will pray in private with other Christians, if they are open to dialogue.
As I watching the video, at 17:14 it was interrupted by an advertisement, which shows a woman at a laptop, saying, "I'm sorry, but I have to say no." It was purely coincidental, and the ad was for a grammar correction service, but I thought it was funny, coming right after the information that in the WELS church, women may have no authority over men.
The church doesn't say that, the Bible does.
I'm happy to no more have any arbitrary female emotions from some postmodern worship leaders interfere with my church life and religious experience.
it allows me to focus on the core questions and have it all effectively soak in for the benefit of my soul.
can't complain
When people ask what i practice for a denomination and I say Lutheran they always ask if I’m apart of the Wisconsin evangelical Lutheran synod and I say no. I tell them I’m apart of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. I lived in Wisconsin my entire life doesn’t mean that I am a member of WELS.
You might want to consider leaving your church if it’s a super liberal ELCA church. Unless you are doing Reconquista, but that’s a longer story
I'm confused... 6:23 "...every person...born...inherits a corrupt sinful condition..." and "...born in sin..." yet at 7:00 "...God declared all people of all time 'not guilty' of the crime of sin."
Which is it? Can't be both, can it?
One describes our natural state, one describes the work Jesus completed.
We can be both, through Christ. We are born into total depravity due to our sinful blood, but through Christ we are made new through his blood.
Did the 142 Differences between JW and Christians change, which .
never
I take it that WELS are not so big on Romans 14.
Wow! I belong to a relatively small denomination. We will pray with any other christian denomination regardless if we agree with the order of their prayer. It doesn’t help THE CHURCH to be so divisive.
It does not help the Church to "agree to disagree". It hinders the truth that the Church is supposed to teach.
@@johnhouchins3156 that’s how I feel. We all believe Jesus is the messiah so let’s just love one another.
@@aspenenglish4976😂 your feelings don't trump God's doctrine and Christ clear emphasis on diligence with the totality of all of his words!
you need me to quote those Bible verses for you?😂
So pretty much a Lutheran from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod would feel home in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. I think I'd feel home in the WELS, just as I do in the LCMS
No, you would not.
@@timnewman1172 They're not extremely different, but WELS is rather more pious. The ELCA would be a culture shock to both
@@timnewman1172 Many do. It depends on the personality of the congregation of that LCMS member. Ever since SEMINEX, the LCMS has had division within. It's what drove many LCMS congregations to break away and become WELS. There is a sad irony to all of this; In the early days of the Wisconsin Synod, it was the Missouri Synod exposing God's Truth to them that turned them away from becoming more liberal. Sadly, in the 1950s and 60s, the trend in SOME LCMS leadership and congregations was to become more liberal. After many years, this was why the WELS broke fellowship with the LCMS. We still have dialogue over what separates us, and we continue to pray that we can be in fellowship once again.
@@margorice1 congrats to your effeminate church life!
must make great young leaders for society and the next generation of pastors 😂
When I was very young (mid 1960's), our family belonged to a WELS church (it was the only Lutheran church in town). Our family eventually left the church, and with some other families started an American Lutheran Church (now part of the ELCA) congregation. One of the reasons was that the pastor was a member of the John Birch Society and would give lectures on the evils of Communism to the Sunday school classes.
This pastor was right
@@Alexander_Fuscinianus The Communists have infiltrated every aspect of American society.
Makes sense, communism is evil.
Sounds like an awesome pastor.
that pastor sounds great
Every district of the LCMS has experienced numerical decline in the past decade - from a 4 percent decline in some places to over 25 percent in others. The counties where the Synod is strongest across the country also tend to be the counties where population is decreasing.2
😂
Anyone else think that the LCMS seems more conservative/confessional/real Lutheran than WELS does at this point?
Judging by current events lcms is going theologically liberal...
Which LCMS? Unfortunately it's a wide range of people, some very confessional and others rank heretics. That's the problem with congregationalism.
@@schmi146 we left an lcms because of a drift towards theological liberalism...
It varies widely by congregation. Either could have a very faithful or very contemporary church.
Become WELS. 😉
Umm….if a pastor is asked to pray for someone they will even if you’re not a member they’ll say a prayer for you if you meet with them.
WELS ministers will say a prayer FOR anyone. They will not however pray with those not in "prayer fellowship", at least not according to official denomination policy. That it does happen in some cases anyway is inevitable.
@@ReadyToHarvest I’m WELS. Why would I pray with someone who sees the Word of God differently? I’ll pray for someone, but not to the Lord with a individual who doesn’t have the same doctrinal faith as me. We’re potentially not praying to the same God anyway. If a person believes let’s say, that their own decision is what made them saved, then we are not in agreement on a core fundamental Christian doctrine. Let’s say that a person believes that Jesus is God and man but only believes he was half God, half man, we wouldn’t be in fellowship either. My uncle is a seventh day Adventist and we are not in agreement on many things. It’s safe and wise to pray with those who are one with you in the Spirit.
@@villarrealmarta6103 Yes, that sounds consistent with WELS teaching.
@@ReadyToHarvestand with NT theology.
The Eternal Security of the believer
I hope that every one that reads this will understand that our God is able to keep what we have committed unto Him against that day and that He is able to keep us from falling away. This is just a few things that show once saved always saved or eternal life in Jesus for all that believe on Him as Lord and savior.
#1 If you are saved.....You are a Son of God
Joh 1/12; Heb 12/6-8; Eph 2/1-3; Joh8/44; Joh 5/26; 1Joh 5/11-12; Joh 3/16
#2 If you are saved.....You are Sealed
Eph 4/30; Jude 1/1; Rom 8/9
#3 If you are saved.....You are Succoured
2Cor 6/2; Rom 8/29-30; Eph 1/5; Rom 8/23; 1Joh 3/2; Php 3/20
#4 If you are saved.....You are Sited in heavenly places.
Eph 2/6; 2Cor 5/17
#5 If you are saved.....You are Sheltered in His hand.
Joh 10/27-30; 1Pet 1/5
#6 If you are saved.....You are sanctified
1Pet 1/1-2; 1The 4/1-4; 2The 2/13; Heb 10/10-14
#7 If you are saved.....You are Saved by Grace
Acts 15/1-11; Eph 2/4-5; Eph 2/8-9; 2Tim 1/9
#8 If you are saved.....You are kept by the power of God
Rom 1/16; 1Cor 1/18; 1Cor 1/24; 1Cor 2/5; 2Cor 6/7; 2Cor 13/4; 2Tim 1/8; 1Pet 1/5
#9 If they shall fall away? For it is impossible! by two immutable things, God made promise and confirmed it by an oath and it is impossible for God to lie! So then we have an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 6/1-20
This is just a little of what that Bible has to show us on the Eternal Security of the believer.
Pro 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
If you seek and love the truth of God's word then look for:
"Sovereign Grace Doctrine"
On UA-cam and Facebook, where I am Preaching the Gospel form the King James Bible to this lost and dying world.
As a Presbyterian, I do not believe in OSAS, But I do believe in Perseverance of the saints. I believe that Jesus meant it when He said that He is the good shepherd, and that those that the Father has given Him He will "lose not one" and If atonement were not limited, and all declared innocent, that what you would have is universalism.
@@slamdancer1720 I believe the word of God and if you read it you will know, as it says "lose not one" is the same as OSAS, and as it says "we are kept by the power of God" and that power is in Jesus and his atoning blood, Jesus paid all our sin dept, our sins are washed away, never more to be remembered.
@@sovereigngracedoctrine5774 no, osas is something different, but that comment was more tword the those that believe that you can lose or give up your salvation.
The discussion here is even more interesting than the video. It seems people are relaying their decisions on which branch of Lutheranism to follow, based on which conforms best to their beliefs. The point of primacy is that person's pre-existing beliefs, rather than openness to the Holy Spirit, to guide the choice, and obediently adopt the beliefs that the choice demands. Not sure this puts you in a good place ...
ordained a Baptist ..I ended my career as a servant in the ELCA(organist)....consider myself to be a believer in sacraments rather than ordinances that I was trained in(I was a pastor and graduated from a ABC seminary)...LUTHERAN practice of the LORD'S SUPPER is spot on(IMHO) but videos like this are so silly to me...LUTHERAN doctrines are far too long and complex...(as are most mainline denominations)...have any protestant denominations ever heard the expression.... the devil is in the details???
and that expression actually means you're required to focus diligently onto the details as to avoid having him sit there. not what you wanted to hear but what that idiom actually means in its context. and that's a German background.
ELCA is not a Lutheran church but a pagan coven mainly.😂
I left the WELS when their hymns came out as gender-neutral , and the Nicene Creed replaced "who for us MEN and our salvation" with a term not intended by our Church Fathers,especially Luther !!
where's that? when happened that?
where did you go instead
I don’t agree with their theology, but good on them for resisting ecumenism
and what would be wrong with the theology?
@@chrise-ih4ix Protestantism
I am Christian, Lutheran, South African. I love the liturgy but this theological verbosity puts me off. It's like we are going to have to present a theology PhD thesis to argue our way at the second coming. Pheeew!
What the Pharisees did. Too much concern about the correct interpretation of the Law, and Jesus did rebuked them for it. So how did Jesus reduce it all to one sentence? I remember Luther driving himself crazy trying to do the right thing, and his realization over what the path was. But I'm sure he got boggeled down in turf wars with others.
Nah! it's merely replying to all the current social and religious issues prevalent that encounter every pastor that receives guests into his flock. actually, it's what even his confirmands from multigenerational member families ask him because of pop culture, social media and peer influence.
but you formal traditionalst love to avoid that despite all implications on the doctrine in catechesis, sermon and church practice but rather enjoy another Latin canticle from the posh and effeminate choir. have fun.
@@SandfordSmytheJesus never rebuked focus on doctrine. to the contrary: we should heed "all my words" as he literally said. Teach them to keep them in the Great Mission Command!
He exposed their doctrinal additions, creative misinterpretations and contradiction to the actual and revealed doctrine instead.
What a sloppy exegesis from you!
but I guess it serves your inner urges best like all of liberal theology does 😂
FIRST TO LIKE AND COMMENT!
Coo 🪔 truth
It IS unfortunate that Joshua chose just one WELS practice (incorrectly quoted in some parts) in order to grab people's attention, because that is often what people remember in the future. I HIGHLY encourage Ready to Harvest and other interested parties to speak with a WELS Pastor directly instead of relying on only website information. This will give you a more fair, balanced assessment of WELS practices.
What are the ways that the WELS prayer fellowship doctrine was misrepresented?
"I HIGHLY encourage Ready to Harvest and other interested parties to speak with a WELS Pastor directly instead of relying on only website information"
Might I encourage you to first advocate for WELS to better represent what you think their position is on their own website then, instead of calling it 'unfortunate' that people take the church's own website at its word?
Fellowship is not easy to summarize in a few simple statements. The focus of the WELS principles is on corporate worship and how to maintain doctrinal purity. How that plays out in the daily lives of individuals requires a longer explanation. That is why I defer to a pastor who is better to prepared to explain it.
I would have preferred a title that draws attention in a more positive way to what some Lutherans are willing to do to maintain the purity of the Gospel (the reason for fellowship principles).
So they believe in original sin and Calvinist total depravity thus God must choose you for salvation. Yet you can lose your salvation? God must not be a good judge of character. By they way this isn't a remark on eternal security it's just pointing out a contradiction. Just like infant baptism which is not a thing. You can only be baptized after you're saved after making a full confession of faith and only by full immersion. Also communion does not forgive sins that's roman catholic tradition of the eucharist which is completely unbiblical.
both logical answers are for one unbiblical and further lead to terrible effects when strictly applied.
it's one of the mysteries and it's important that you mainly honor the Word and stick to the Gospel center!
tell me: you can give a logical explanation of, let's say ...
* eternity
* creatio ex nihilo
* Trinity
* God's person and nature
* Christ's incarnation
* his miracles
* the Resurrection
* the Ascension
* the Holy Spirit
* your conversion
* Heaven
* ...
Riddle me those with mere reason and we continue talking predestination after that, Mr. Rationalist! 😂
Biblical faith is not Aristoleanism! It's faith, we can't choose which parts.
They are alot stricter than the elca
Missouri synod is even stricter than elca we welcome everybody to come to communion
@@SidneyJohnson-p2n That is not true. Communion in the LCMS is closed. Even if you are LCMS and plan to visit another LCMS and want to take communion, you must furnish a letter from your home church in advance, or at the very least speak to the pastor before you may partake.
Sounds to me as if the exclusionist view about Truth and salvation essentially means WELS is to be considered a separate religion from all other self-proclaimed Christian sects or denominations. Plain and simple.
😂😂😂
I am a lutheran and I welcome everyone to prayers 🙏
Would you pray with a Catholic to Mary?
@@CornCod1 Lutherans do believe Mary prays for them, and all who live on the earth...
They do not believe she "hears" prayers, however.
But what does that mean? Where if anywhere do you draw the line for ecumenical prayer? Would you worship with Muslims?
@@timnewman1172 Not so fast there...
@@johnhouchins3156 look it up...
“And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.”
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 RSV
How is this “clearly fulfilled” by the Papacy? Ridiculous. The Pope is not the anti-Christ, give that a rest…
You're mangling verses together. It can be said that there are 'two divisions' of Antichrist, the false church that precedes him ( spiritual ), and a human male who will be the final Antichrist ( more governmental ). His church, already on earth, has certainly been fulfilled in the form of the Roman Catholic Church, which is merely a slightly more modern manifestation of that old unbroken line of pagan idolatry, with its cultic practices of statue and Mary worship. That is the expressly religious aspect of the Antichrist; the Church of Rome furthermore could easily be merged with Islam and other creeds, including Protestant ones, by the time of Christ's return, looking at Pope Francis' ecumenical endeavours, meaning one world religion. The verse you cited refers to a lone man predicted by the Bible, 'the lawless one'.. that today happens to be the Pope, who literally exalts himself above God, as the Bible likewise prophesied someone would. So yes, the Pope is indeed the very Antichrist.. however, he is the 'religious antichrist', as opposed to what I would call the 'corporate', or political, Antichrist, who will rise, probably fairly soon if you examine world events, and rule all the Earth, possibly in conjuncture with the Pope, assuming he himself is not doing it. This more political Antichrist, who would still have a strong religious element, will likely emerge from the EU or UN, may be Jewish, will enforce his mark of the beast most likely through a microchip, and will rule all the world tyrannically. It's a terrifying prospect, but as always faithful Christians need not fear. But you're wrong when you insist the Pope is not the Antichrist, for he and his abominable seat are. It's just that before long it will not be confined to the Pope
These words are how all Lutherans (and many others) have identified the pope as Antichrist: "he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." For the "temple of God" is identified elsewhere by Paul as the Church. Therefore Antichrist (says Paul) will appear to be a great man in the Church but will secretly bring in all kinds of idolatry while calling himself "God on earth" (which is what the pope's titles really mean). And every article of faith produced by the popes has been nothing but idolatry (and other sins against God and man).
@@Josh_Antikainen and is considered change of worship
Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America.
what's with that? nobody needs that anyway
If we could not see the difference between Jesus and the authoritarian denominations, including Rome and Orthodox, some of us couldn't bear to be Christians. But Jesus is who He is, therefore we can believe and trust Him.
I was glad to see quite a few people standing up to refute such things as Word-Faith, the televangelists, the NAR, etc. They called themselves "discernment ministries". In spite of the fact that I knew we are all responsible to discern truth from error, I celebrated them, and spent quite a bit of my online time at their sites, listening to their videos, etc.
Then I noticed something that disturbed me, which itself required discernment to see, that it wasn't the teaching of the Bible. Almost all of them said that we have *no experience of the Holy Spirit.* Where Jesus said there was something He called *hearing His voice,* the discernment people said that no one hears Jesus's voice. They said that we hear His voice through the Bible, alone, but what they didn't put into so many words, was that they were saying that we understand God's word in the Bible, _mediated by fleshly reasoning, alone._ They denied _any_ experience of God, including the inner experience of *conviction/reproof,* the *comfort* of the *Comforter,* His *guiding us into all truth,* the *Holy Spirit saying "Abba, Father"* within us, causing us to say "Abba, Father" to God. They denied this inner experience of the Holy Spirit, through *denying the "still, small voice"* as an experience of believers. Since we are not prophets, we haven't been promised a still, small voice. But they neglected to say that Elijah wasn't promised one, either, but that this was where he found God, when he was looking for him: not in the whirlwind, but in a still small voice. The fact is that Christians have identified this still, small voice, given to Elijah, with their own experience of the Holy Spirit, since there has been a church. The discernment "stars" gathered together on each other's channels, to talk and scoff about how ridiculous and _unclean_ it is, to say that such as we, have any "experience" of the Holy Spirit, since they'd already (with one voice) identified "experience" as the villain in all of the heresies. But that's what the Bible says, and they are stonewalling it. Most of these online discernment guys, men and women, identify as Lutherans.
Some identify as Baptists. Not long ago, one of the "heroes" who presents as a Baptist, claimed that homosexuality, unlike sins like covetousness, with which it is so often mentioned in the Bible, isn't completely cleansed, even after the Cross: even when the blood of Christ is applied. It supposedly still leaves a "stain". But he could have just kept on reading, and he would have read: "...of such (covetous; homosexuals, etc) were some of you; but ye are cleansed..." Or, "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as wool. Though you be red like crimson, you shall be white as snow."
Beware of even the discernment community. We are each, personally responsible for discerning, and if we need to ask of God because we lack wisdom, that is what we are told to do. How would we know that God had imparted some wisdom to us, if we had no experience of it? We are responsible for testing the spirits to see if they are of God..If we had no experience of the Holy Spirit, there would be no reason to test the spirits! And of course, we test the teachings, and their spirits, together, by comparing with the word of God. What does God say about it? That is the truth. No theologian is telling the truth, who scoffs at the word of God.
independent fundamental baptist here, all lowercase, part of no movement, per say. I 100 percent endorse this comment and view. God still tells me where I’m wrong AND how to get right. He’s worth every whipping…
blah blah blah I hear.
nothing of substance
@@chrise-ih4ix And I"m sure no one could make you hear anything of substance, no matter what they said. If you don't want to hear the "voice of the Son of God", as Jesus said, you sure won't hear anything that we say. After all, ours is just human testimony. It's like a belly button: everyone's got one. But when we testify to the word of God, if we testify correctly, this is what the Holy Spirit bears witness to: His own word. God's truth. To the degree that we testify of Him, and not just our own thinking, He will bear witness to it. If you want the Holy Spirit to not bear witness to human hearts, you have to invent another god, not the Bible's God. I'm grateful that God does not obey the wishes of people who don't want Him to reveal Himself to mankind. Here is where He divides between those He reveals God to and those He wobt: not some kind of gnostic revelation to an elite, but the Father hides His truth from the worldly wise and prudent, the wise-in-theur-own-eyes, abd reveals His truth to the babes, the ones who are willing to know Him personally. And the w&p can overcome being left out, simply by seeking Him with their whole hearts. He will reveal Himself to anyone who approaches Him in sincerity.
@@chrise-ih4ix John 5:25 KJV - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 10:3 KJV - To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
John 10:27 KJV - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Hebrews 4:7 KJV - Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Revelation 3:20 KJV - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
John 14:26 KJV - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 KJV - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:7 KJV - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:13 KJV - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Romans 8:15 KJV - For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:6 KJV - And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
I got excommunicated (in a non-biblical manner) from Rock of Ages Church in Nashville, Tennessee for asking too many questions about the antisemitic writings of Martin Luther (which the denomination has never condemned).
I messaged a friend from way back who went to WELS seminary, and he said that he doesn't shy away from reckoning that with regret but still continues on in the Luther tradition regardless. I asked my dad, who used to be a Lutheran pastor, and he seemed confused like he didn't know about it.
LCMS has condemned Luther's antisemitic writings - clearly stated on their website. It seems to be that confessional Luther's consider Luther's writings to be as infallible as scripture. - ex LCMS after 27 years and the trauma they caused my autistic son.
What kind of trauma?
I left the WELS church. Just couldn’t buy into the contradictory behaviors allowed and not allowed.
The point he made where if someone is gay they are shunned from the church because sin is sin (all sin is equal) but the church will turn a blind eye to adultery, using the Lords name in vain, stealers, abandoning their parents, coveting, the list goes on. I don’t jive with Christian’s that pick and choose which sins they allow and don’t allow.
The WELS does NOT condone ANY sin. We welcome all repentant sinners. It is UNREPETANT sinners that continue in their sin that are shunned. We ALL sin. The difference is in how we react to our sin.
The rejection of what they call Decision theology is unbiblical. Hence churches like this grow by procreation not by proclamation. The convert to Christ is called on to repent which means that this church which teaches that the sinner is passive in salvation is wrong. Paul went from house to house, teaching repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, Acts 20:20-21. Sounds like a bunch of elitists.
Don't even need to watch. Liked
Your aseptic treatment of religion has this atheist subscribing to you.
now you merely need to subscribe to the doctrine and we're good 😂
@@chrise-ih4ix "...we're good"
Who is the "we" you mention?
@@BeachsideHank actually a good question
As a child, I was taught to stay away from Wisconsin Synod Lutherans. Now I know why. Sheesh.
Haha same
I will bully them into submission
Why? I have a lot of WELS friends, and they are awesome.
Because WELS is the best?
If ever there was a comment that needed further explanation, it would be this one. I'm intensely curious!
3:10 floored me. That some Christians could say the words "hinders God" is incredible, that this sect believes certain physical means are necessary for God's grace. Of course most Christians hold the sacraments, but clearly they're symbolic, their absence cannot "hinder" an omnipotent God
Unbelief hinders God's will that everyone be saved, doesn't it? They see rejecting baptism as unbelief. That's just where they're coming from.
@@maxkerr1777 "Rejecting baptism as unbelief" doesn't make any sense to me. Belief is belief, you either believe or you don't. Whether you're baptized or not doesn't prove that you believe. Baptism is a sacrament, like the Eucharist, it's important symbolically but not for our salvation.
@@chegadesuade I hear you. They'd agree salvation is by grace through faith alone. But they connect faith to baptism. It isn't just symbolic to them, God actually does something in baptism. So rejecting baptism is like rejecting the gospel to them. That's just how it registers in their minds. It's something I've had to wrestle with and coming from a WELS background something I am very conscientious about talking with believers who don't think in those terms...
@@maxkerr1777 Thank you for going more in-depth on this subject with me, it's a subject that I really struggle with as a Christian. Many Bible teachers I highly respect also feel that baptism is necessary. I'm not familiar with the WELS point of view in particular, but I think you explained it well. My question is simple: What about all those Christians who've lived and died without even the chance to receive baptism? Is baptism really necessary, if a person repents and believes all the same? Jesus said to go out and baptize the world, but did he ever suggest that someone who dies without baptism is beyond God's grace?
@@chegadesuade Definitely they're saved. Salvation depends on belief in the triune God, who Jesus is, and what he has done. Jesus commanded baptism though, so if you have the opportunity to be baptized why wouldn't you? Perhaps you'd agree with that statement. No one is beyond God's grace.
You hear decision theology and prosperity gospel all the time in the narthex from WELS members.
You even hear millennialism from members. We'd be better off to tell members not to listen to "evangelical" preachers than run away from gays.
What church in the WELS have you heard this from?
so, we need now gay pastors also in the WELS contrary to Bible, Creeds and Doctrinal Statements?
Why don't you just go full ELCA or some fake LCMS compromise and show some tolerance towards traditionalists staying among themselves and exercising their First Amendment?! good grief
(no condoning of decision theology, prosperity gospel or millennialism either. And too cowardly to expose your fellow members to some direct admonition in the narthex and maybe ultimately some well deserved church discipline to save some at least?!)
what's going on in WELS?! either zero doctrine or libtardism
Love me some Jordan B. Cooper
He's part of the AALC, which is in fellowship with Missouri.
@@matthewbless3335 ah, I thought he was wels lol
@@matthewbless3335 how are they doing?
@@mikezeke7041 AALC? They're solid. Small though
Cooper is gay.
I wonder if they ever actually read the answers they provide in the q&a's with a thought to how cherry picked their adherence to scripture seems to someone that isn't a member of their group.
They don't. the pastors who write those live in a bubble.
@@maxkerr1777 hmm
@@maxkerr1777what do you mean exactly?
😂 as to not cherry pick: which are the ones you deem as cherry picked and which biblical proof can you quote for your position?
@@chrise-ih4ix It's hard for people to see things from other perspectives. We get so miopic. misty's comment highlighted the fact that most people aren't aware of the Lutheran hermeneutic so it gives the impression of cherry-picked Scriptures. Even more so with pastors who've been raised with a singular approach to Scripture. We use a lot of insider language and don't see the perspective of outsiders. So to members of other churches their answers seem cherrypicked. This goes for all Christian fellowships in my experience. I think the benefit of this channel is to broaden your horizons to meet people where they're at