Bluing and Color Case Hardening Winchester 22's
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- Опубліковано 21 лис 2020
- In this episode, we'll show before and after clips of a couple of rough old Winchester 22's that I refinished in class at the Lassen College Gunsmith School. We'll show the quenching process and reveal of several receivers that we case color hardened, including a Winchester Model 1890. We'll also show a Winchester Model 1906 that I caustic blued.
At 11:13, the results had me giggling, delighted with the great appearance. Even more at 14:09.
Thank you so much for sharing this with us, I am looking forward to see how the rifle comes back to life again, the color casing looks beautiful
Preparation is 99% of the job. It is the most important part of the job. It does not matter what the job is. Nice work.
If they offered clear cerakote in 1890, I bet people would have bought it.
First viewing of your channel has me hooked. Both fir the content and the presentation. Respect!!
Your explanation of the process is great, and the end result is fabulous! 🤩
That was great to watch. Your receiver came out spectacular. Looks like an outstanding school.
Thanks for taking us along.
This is enjoyable to watch!
I just found your videos & this stuff fascinates me. I wish I could've learned these things many years ago but I'm getting too old for it now. To think, guys were doing this work-intensive process daily & churning out frames & receivers at a fast pace & with no real safety gear back in the day.
Incidentally, I bought a batch of black powder guns & one ended up being an original 1873 Winchester in .22 short (dated 1886). The color case & blued finishes are gone, of course, but it has a nice patina. I need to get it looked at one day, as it has an area of concern, & not many of these were made. I love the old Winchester lever actions.
It's amazing to me that they were able to produce such high quality guns with the equipment they had to work with.
Those 1873's are pretty scarce. You've got a treasure in that one if it's in decent shape. Most have pretty rough bores from shooting black powder.
Beautiful! Can't wait to see how it turns out.
Super job Mark. Always enjoy the videos. Beautiful looking parts.
Thanks Jim!
I own and love color case hardened rifles, shotguns and revolvers. I have always wondered how it's done. I should have looked into it years ago, but now I'm happy I didn't. Your video and explanation was worth waiting to find out how it's done. Thanks for a great video. And a big thanks for showing all the beautiful scenery around the Cinnabar.
Mark, Had to watch this one again. Your color case hardening came out spectacular. Great video, thanks !
Thanks so much Robert. I'm in the process of setting up the equipment in my shop to color case harden. It's a fascinating process.
Great video Mark. I enjoyed watching your progress on the 06 and the 1890. Will look forward to seeing them completed.
Thanks Mark! It should be pretty fun to get them put together.
excellent video, very happy for you with how these turned out man! i am going to pursue this for myself
Mark I'm on quite the binge of you videos, Ill never blue a gun in my life unfortunately but I enjoy listening to how you, its very humbling, a true gent and I look forward to seeing more of your videos and projects ! Take care
Thanks so much! Glad to hear you're enjoying the channel
That's a one of a kind Mark. Looks amazing.
I am really loving your channel!
Great work! Looks amazing
I love the blued one. Great work on both.
Thanks Mason. I'm going to have to get back to those projects soon and do a follow-up. Too many projects going at once now. Thanks for watching!
Nice shooting sir! Beautiful colors on that receiver.
Thank you Peter!
Wow Great work there Those colors sure do pop out at you .I have an Uberti 1973 in 44-40 with color case hardened receiver But its nothing like that.Keep the videos coming there Great.Cheers
Thanks a bunch Cliff! They say that getting good colors isn't a sure thing or an exact science, so I think I got pretty lucky on my first try. Thanks for watching.
Really enjoying your videos - very helpful and fascinating - thank you! Stay safe.
Thank you very much for watching! I'm glad you like them.
Cool looking case harding.
Superb job.
Outstanding job!👍🏾😀❤️🇺🇸
Thanks Jeffry!
Love these videos! Have learned so much already.
Glad to hear it. Thanks for watching!
That looks absolutely beautiful....great work! I would love to learn how to color case harden.
Thanks so much! I'll be doing a comprehensive episode on color case hardening when I get set up in my own shop. Keep an eye out for that one in the future.
Hello Mark!! beautiful color case hardening, really fabulously beautiful. And the great thing is that each piece is unique with its colors. I treated my cch weapons with shellac. The colors become deeper and it forms a crystal-hard layer, which can be removed again with acetone or methylalcohol. And that, without affecting the cch. Kind regards, Paul. Like your vid’s😊
Thanks for the tip Paul. And thanks for watching!
@@thecinnabar8442 Dear Mark...I've seen it at Turnbull Rest. It's an old technique. I think modern paints do not suit these types of guns. I am very satisfied with the result. Practice first. Nothing can go wrong. Regards Paul
And Niter Blue The Screws & Trigger and Hammer on That 1890 Winchester it Will Be Amazing 😀😀😀
Thanks Chris! I need to get back to that project and get it finished up. I've got some wood for it and will rust blue the barrel and mag tube. Look for a follow-up episode soon.
@@thecinnabar8442 Can’t Wait To See It 😀👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Absolutely stunning! I’ve really enjoyed your channel, new subscriber here!
Thanks Adam! And thanks for watching and subscribing!
Nice work on that case hardning project. I have purchased a few case hardened items from a company called TurnBull Restorations. Their work is just outstanding. I am glad to see you also use Renaissance Wax on your finished work. I learned about that product long ago. I use it on gloss blue metal finishes, fine wood and of course case hardening. It seems only the real professionals like yourself use the wax. So I feel that much better that I safely use it on my old collectables.
Renaissance Wax was developed by the conservation department of the British Museum as a neutral wax that would provide a good protective layer over an object, but that was possible to remove using a solvent.
Initially the issue was to prevent the dust layer accumulating on metal objects acting as a wick and pulling moisture onto the metal surface creating the conditions for rust pitting. If you look at old metal objects such as armour and fittings, they often show rust lines along the upper surfaces where dust has been allowed to accumulate. Dust consists of a load of organic materials which can support bacterial action if allowed to become moist. The by products of bacterial action is usually acidic and this is what triggers rust. The worst case is where any insect damage such as woodworm has occurred. Wormed wood needs to be removed from the metal as soon as possible and treated. Woodworm excretions are extremely corrosive.
In guns, danger points are gaps in the construction where moisture can wick in to the mechanism via capillery action. Any wood-metal junction is particularly prone to this. All old guns need to be pulled out of their wood every couple of years and any hidden surfaces inspected. Always coat internal surfaces with a neutral wax or grease before replacing the wood. Renaissance wax is ideal for this. Do not use oil on internal wood -metal surfaces as this can attack the wood.
Colour case hardening is very thin and the colours are transient. They are unlikey to survive long on surfaces which are subject to handling or wear. The hard case itself is deeper and will survive, but the colours on the surface are very thin and easily lost. In my opinion, it is better to rust or nitre blue parts that will be subject to wear as this will last longer and is easier and less traumatic to restore. Remember if you are in UK, colour case hardening any pressure bearing parts will nullify the proof on the gun. It needs to be re-submitted to the proof house for testing after carrying out case hardening if you intend to sell the gun.
The results that you've shown here of the case hardening are absolutely beautiful! Part of the beauty is the total randomness and lack of any guarantees, you could in theory do everything totally right, and end up with a disaster of a pattern that may be functionally ok, but just looked crappy. It's worked out really well on this vid. My ULTIMATE pistol would be a case hardened Browning Hi-Power, with gold plated hammer, trigger and controls, and a figured walnut handgrips. Getting that work done would probably at least double the cost from the factory price standard, but WELL worth it for me personally. Doesn't do ANYTHING for function, but it makes a firearm look so much nicer!
I agree. There's just something about a nice color case hardened part. Thanks for watching.
That looks really awesome,looks factory!!
Thanks! I was really pleased since it was my first attempt at case color hardening.
Outstanding.
I so wish I could be in that shop with you. I've got a few jewels I would love to do the same to. They make me sad to look at them right now. So much work needed. Edit: And most are family heirlooms.
I'm working on setting up my shop for color case hardening now. It might take a while, though, because people keep sending me guns to work on. :)
A close-up at the end would have been much appreciated. Thanks for the vid!
You're very welcome. Thanks for watching and commenting, Scott!
Man, that turned out great!
Thanks, I'm very happy with the way it turned out. I'm going to have to get back to that project real soon
Looks really good Mark! Didn't get to see it in class on Friday. I bought some clear cerakote that you're welcome to if you decide to.
Thanks Brian. I may take you up on that. Happy Thanksgiving!!
A really excellent video, nice to see you having fun! You might try wrapping the part to be colour case hardened in soft iron wire, that retains the carbon for just a little longer when you quench, and gives a tighter colour pattern, you can also try aerating the quench tank for an hour before you quench, that can make a big difference, as you say, you never know what you have until you pull it from the tank, you really need a coat of clear varnish over the CCH to give it a more durable finish, that is what was done originally . The barrel striking is another mystery to some people, I have seen a lot of round barrels that people have just thrown in the lathe chuck and spun with emery cloth to polish, a complete disaster, along the length is the correct way as you know, stay safe, Chris B.
I'm working on getting set up in my shop for case hardening and will be trying several different techniques. Thanks for the great tips Chris!
@@thecinnabar8442 One easy way of oxygenating the quench tank is to use an aeriation block as used in aquariums, you just drop it into the bottom of your tank with an air feed and it fills the water tank with air bubbles, which when used with the soft iron wire wrapped around the piece gives you a much better colour, the water type also affects the colours, as you say, it is more of an art form than a technical undertaking, good luck! Chris B.
Hey Mark! Just wanted to mention my favorite powder for reloading the 25-35 is H 380. Take care and stay healthy!
Thanks Ron. I'll have to check, but I think I've got some of that around here. I haven't used it in quite a while. I may give it a try.
Where are you getting bullets for .25-35?
You can bubble air through the quenching water and vary the patterns on the metal.
Thanks for the tip, Jerry. There are so many variables in CCH, making it so difficult to get right and repeatable. There's the type and ratio of bone and wood charcoal, the time and temperature in the kiln and the temperature and oxygen content of the water. On top of that, the weather conditions play a part. After all those variables, the specific alloys of the different steels used by the gun makers will have an effect. It's an art and a science that the best smiths at CCH have spent enormous time studying and going through trial and error to get it just right. Thanks so much for watching and commenting.
Gotta say, you do have guts. I never do foundry or other fire work in sneakers.
I wouldn't either. Of course, there's a big difference between splashing a little bluing solution or warm quench water, as opposed to molten metal, on leather running shoes.
What a fantastic result. And now for my unsolicited two bits worth of advice from someone who has never refinished a gun.
While Cerakote is a great protective finish, I question applying it to a vintage rifle like your Winchester Model 1890. It seems out of place and out of time. After a slow rust bluing of the barrel, which was the traditional finish on such rifles, applying a product such as Renaissance wax polish seems much more appropriate. It was developed by the British Museum Research Laboratory as a protective finish for metal objects and also other items. I use it after restoring old fountain pens.
Putting Cerakote on an 1890 would be like putting high tech, high performance sports car tires on a professionally restored 1930 Packard Deluxe Eight roadster.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Stephen. I absolutely agree with you about Renaissance wax. I've used it on my high condition, original firearms for years. Remember, however, that this 1890 was just half of a rusty door stop when I started. While I'm really happy with the way it turned out, it's still just a pretty shooter and fantasy piece with 0% original finish.
When I get done with the wood and rust bluing, it will be on display in my shop and travel to gun shows with me. It will most likely be handled extensively by the general public. I'm very interested in knowing if the clear Cerakote will save the case colors from exposure to UV light and "hands-on" inspections. While I really like Renaissance wax, I don't think it would hold up as well. Sadly, unlike automobiles, firearms lose their collector value when restored, so this one seems like a good candidate to try it out on. .
@@thecinnabar8442 You certainly have a point. If lots of people are going to handle it, potentially dropping it (ouch!) and generally bumping it around, clear Cerakote is a good choice. And as to whether it will provide UV protection to the color case hardening, now you can find out.
I have an old muzzle loader that was made in Spain in the 1970s and the lock plate and all lock parts are hand forged and color case hardened. The outside of the lock plate is now an off color of grey/blue while the internal parts are still retaining their original color.
So yes the colors fade with use and exposure.
It’s the uv light that makes it loose it’s coloring
Beautiful colors in that 1890! Do you have a video of the finished rifle?
WOW!!!
I think this actually works better with different types of Steel, or differently with different types of Steel...for instance when I was younger I had a Uberti pistol but it was like high carbon steel so that gives it like this really dark kind of black and blue tie dye color but I think if you use a less carbon steel like spring steel or tool steel you'll end up with a more traditional look like mountains and valleys where the mountains are the dark carbon spots, and The Valleys below look like foamy streams and ponds, because it's like less carbon so there's more of an almost like a sea green tint to it but it almost makes the steel look like 3D or see through in certain areas if you do it the right way but with high carbon steel it just makes it look like blue and black tie dye which isn't wrong there's just like a more traditional look that I have desired and I think it's to use lower carbon steel.....which in Firearms, as long as they're like properly annealed and everything is well put together, I don't think you need it to be high carbon steel, I think you could use tool steel or spring steel instead
You know it’s funny I’ve always had this idea that the old case colored hardened finish was superior but it really doesn’t hold up like one would think, curious how the clear Cerakote turned out with the others would be a very cool mix of the old made tougher with modern which isn’t usually the case, I would love to have that old look yet rugged enough I wouldn’t have to baby it like some of my shooter grade collectors. Thank you for your content.
I've been so busy in the shop that I haven't had the chance to wire up the Cerakote oven and coat that receiver. Will do a follow up on that episode and rust blue the barrel and fit stocks to it when I get the chance.
@@thecinnabar8442 I can understand that!
Can you get into how you fill deep pits and gouges? I have a large frame lightning supposedly beyond help pitted pretty bad.
Another great video.
It depends on how deep the pits are and where they are. If they aren't too deep, they can be draw filed out. If they are too deep, they can be filled with tig weld and blended, but not on the barrel. I have seen a video where a guy uses a laser welder to weld up pits on a medium frame Lightning. Laser welders produce much less heat than even a tig welder. I sure wish I could afford one.
Caustic blue was not around when either of those guns were made. Rust blue or an oven blue like Carbonia blue would be the right finish. Carbonia blue is just another charcoal bluing method using a gas oven.
Great video ,, i enjoyed it very much,, but I'm not a big fan of case- Coloring,, it looks ok sometimes, but it can be overly done and a little tacky,, i prefer a good reblue or a good blue finish over case coloring,, thanks again,& i wish you were in the Southeast part of the country I've got an original 94 Marlin 32-20 that needs repairs,, the carrier needs replacing and the lifter too probably,, it's made around the 1900's im guessing...
Thanks Bryant! If it's just simple parts replacement, Marlins are very easy to work on. Check out my last episode on excessive headspace in an 1893 Marlin. I show how easy it is to take one apart. The 1893 and 1894 are very similar in design. Good luck!
@@thecinnabar8442 thank you, again,, i made a mistake,, it's a 94 not a 93,, i typed the year in wrong,, i will watch your video about the marlin head space,, i enjoy your videos...
Maybe a clear coat like Imron would be good protection. It’s a incredibly tough paint used on Fleet vehicles. About 70-80% of all Semi Trucks, commercial jet aircraft and Locomotives use it. Nitro Top Fuel and Funny Car racers commonly use it because it’s not effected by Nitromethane and just about everything else. It can also be color sanded and buffed for a mirror finish. It would be a shame to lose that Color.
Thanks Monty. Great tip!
Gorgeous, good idea with the cerrocoat, (sp), always have a ginea pig to use. New to your channel, did you do a video showing the final results on this?
Thanks
Daniel
Not yet! I've gotten so busy with customer guns that I rarely get the chance to work on my own guns since I opened the shop.
@@thecinnabar8442 Hope to stop by your shop some day, Do you sell beef too? Buying some grass fed steaks would be heaven.
3:37 I think you mean parallel.
Love to know what temp you were heating the furnace to and ratios of media used. I had heard of some folks using pieces of leather in their mix as well as bone and charcoal. Did you reline the barrel?
At the school, we were using 1,300 degrees and 25% bone charcoal. Everybody who does CCH has their own recipe found through trial and error. Rarely will they share. I stay away from using leather, because it can liquify and destroy the finish where it touches metal.
@@thecinnabar8442 Thank you for the warning about leather.
Hello Mark, do you know what ratio the carbon to bone is for this process?
How is the bone incorporated into the carbon? Is it powdered and mixed in?
Fascinating and enjoyable video, thank you!
Those who do CCH professionally arrive at the ratio through trial & error and keep it a closely guarded secret. For this class, I believe we used 25% bone charcoal to 75% wood charcoal. Both are ground charcoal mixed together.
@@thecinnabar8442 Very cool, thank you for your reply!
How did it turn out brother? You ever get it complete?
Is that a blue gem ?
I'm curious, the colors on your 1890 appear to have a different pattern than the other two receivers ( which look to be either Stevens or H&R guns). The case hardening process was the same for all three receivers Is there a reason for the different color patterns? Is it perhaps because the Winchester had a forged frame and the other two guns may have been castings?
Great question! Even metallurgists don't fully understand why the colors form the way they do in the process. You can do everything the exact same way with two identical guns and get quite different results. One of the students packed two parts of the same old double barreled shotgun in two different crucibles and heated and quenched them in the same batch and got a different look on them - one had a much more brassy appearance than the other. There are a myriad of variables that will effect the colors and sometimes they will come out with a dull appearance and no interesting colors at all. The best old time gunsmith I know told me you can do everything exactly the same every time and sometimes it'll come out beautiful and sometimes you'll get less color than an old dun mule.
I'm told that in the early days, the Colt factory had a chart that had different recipes (time, temp, charcoal mix, etc) depending on several variables such as temperature and humidity. Unfortunately, that information has been lost to history, so we have to do the best we can through trial and error (and a little alchemy) to find just the right combination that works most of the time.
You're likely right that the differences in the metals had an effect on appearances, but there were other variables as well. If you noticed it was a stormy, rainy day when the first two were quenched and a nice day when I quenched mine. On the day between, several of the projects came out with very little color at all. If I do much color case hardening, I will surely keep detailed notes of the conditions and the results of each batch.
@@thecinnabar8442 great video interesting on the bluing and color case finish can't say as I'd be overly fond of a fun mule or any other mule as far as that goes lol I am a horseman tho been a cowboy my entire life
Is the blue on the case hardening from the water?
Красивого мало в том что получились у Вас по сравнению с Лари Потерфилдом из мидвея! Вам нужно аэрировать воду ! Тогда цвета будут интереснее. И вопрос закалки ? На сколько тверда получается деталь ? Вы проверяли на твёрдость ?
Thanks for the tips Roman! Some people continue to aerate during the quench and some turn it off prior to quenching. When I start color case hardening in my shop, I will experiment with both methods. We did not test for hardness. The goal was to get the best colors possible and an increase in hardness is an added benefit, but not necessary. Thanks for watching!
I'm a little late watching this, but I'd never put cerakote on an old firearm like that, clear or not. The way the finishes wear on old guns is a lot more graceful than what happens to any of the modern stuff.
Remove quill from 16b mill
It's an antique. Not worth the time involved imo. It's like putting a nice paint job on a model T.
That thumbnail photo goes along ways to explaining 100 year old rifles being found, leaning up against a tree, out west