The first time it stalled was most likely a stuck needle. The subsequent times likely due to vapor lock. The tank design is poor. The fuel tank outlet is barely above the level of the carburetor and the fuel line long and routed in such a way that it picks up a lot of heat from the engine and stator. I made a video about a year ago dealing with a similar issue on a Ridgid generator with a Yamaha MZ360 engine. I found that everything ran fine when under load. But once the engine was nice and hot, if I removed the load the fuel demands would drop giving the fuel more time to heat soak in the fuel line and turn into vapor. If you want to reproduce the issue easier, replace the fuel line with Tygon fuel lines so you can see what's going on with vapor bubbles. Run the generator under load for a while to get things nice and hot. Then take the load off and it will stall shortly after. I would suspect the issue will be harder to reproduce this time of year since daytime temps are low. Ideally the pressure from the gravity feed fuel tank should push out the vapor when the needle opens. Because the pressure is so low from this tank, the vapor does not clear. The vapor bubbles are rising toward the tank. At some point the pressure from the bubbles pushing up equals the pressure of the gravity pulling the fuel down and the carb runs dry. Ridgid did put a sticker in the generator stating "Zero Gravity", guess they were not kidding. Generators usually have a flat bottom tank and the fuel outlet close to the carburetor, not on the other side of the generator. More recent Ridgid models have a flat bottom tank with the fuel outlet moved to the front. There was a recall on the model I was working on. Google "Ridgid 461218" to find the notice. Hope that helps.
g`day james i left a link to your video on this generator and same problem before seeing your comment i enjoy your videos i think i have watched them all ..you mustie and tyrell are my favorite small engine fix blokes its a bit early but happy xmas to you and the family...... cheers for all the content
The stuff you learn on this channel for FREE is just priceless! I love how he gets to the ground of problrms to learn whats going on! Thank you Sir !!!
We had a similar problem once in a small engine. It ended up being that the fuel filter was not the recommended for the engine, it was for particles of smaller microns and it ended up slowing the flow. The engine would not shut but it would loose power every 10 minutes or so, then, after a minute or two, as the flow regained volume, the engine would go back to running normally for another 10 minutes and so on. Replaced the filter with the right one and problem was gone. Not saying this is the problem here, it just reminded me of our problem and wanted to let everyone be aware of the possibility.
@German Bellini : I agree 100%. That is probably not the original, factory filter and it is definitely the wrong filter for that application. Mustie described it's inappropriateness for this motor and earlier in the video noted that fuel lines were not the same. Somebody probably thought it would be good to have a filter since bugs were renting room in the tank. The tank is plenty high above the carb. Just like on nearly every other small gas motor Mustie has worked on...he needs to ditch the filter!!! (Or install the "screen" version he described.)
On scooters, mopeds an all angine under 50cc you don't have fuel pump, this paper filter is not good. Change with plastic or metal net filter, problem solved. But in the same time check fuel cap... i have it this problem on one scooter... built vacumm in fuel tank.
It might of been in a unlevel location when the original owner , because of fuel line routing from the factory, and the size of fuel line can be undersized for the demands needed at rated operational specs .
@@jorgecostales8232 I had issuses with a B&S Motor on a small 2kVA Genset. It has the same behaviour . I took the whole damn thing apart but everything was fine. I was really close to give up. I realize at my last try that the rubber petrol hose was vibrating while the engine run. This vibration let the fuel stuck in the line. I replaced the rubber hose against a piece of rigid fuel line. After this the engine run fine without any further trouble. Maybe it could the cause on the genset in the video here as well. I got another bigger genset also with an 2 cyl. B&S engine. This engine got rigdid fuel lines from factory.
Not a 70%, you get a 100%. Love this troubleshooting video. Out of the USAF Maintenance, F101, 102, 106s, and F4’s all needed this detailed troubleshooting and determination. Many pilots survived due to this level of determination. Thanks Mustie.l
This is the kind of invaluable troubleshooting that I have come to enjoy so much from your videos. I know it’s a lot of extra work to show the troubleshooting process, especially with something like this where you don’t have a pretty good idea ahead of time what the problem is, but I really appreciate that you go to all the extra work. Thank you again!
Troubleshooting skills my A. He confirmed early on it was fuel. Saw contaminated fuel and cleaned the fuel system except for the hose to carb connection. A place very prone for crap to get stuck. The exact place where he clamped the hose after the first test and the machine was fixed. Flew right over his head. However the fuel filter not having enough flow is another good theory. Don’t listen to all the nonsense he said about air in the lines and in the fuel filter. There is always a little air in lines and the filter. The excess air in the system only becomes a slight problem when starting the engine. The height and the slight bend in hose is fine.
I don't own a generator but by watching the troubleshooting, I'm learning a lot about the inner workings of one. I guess I'm just a sponge. I love learning how things work. The way you convey what's going on and what you're looking and your thought process is expressed very well. Some guys would just mumble and start fiddling and unintentionally leave you in the dark.
James Condon did one of these on his channel. Same issue, the fuel line was vapor locking when it got hot and ran it out of fuel. Rerouting the fuel line took care of the issue I believe.
I agree with the filter. I'm told that the paper type filter is to be use only with a fuel pump. The red one should be used on gravity feed. Keep up the good work Ron's Small engine Service. Love all your videos
Big DR Field and Brush mowers use the same fuel line setup with the same paper in-line fuel filter. They are also gravity fed from the tank (tank equipped with red screen filter inside). Same level routing to the carb, seems to work fine although I wouldn't do that design.
@@pville5548 the only problem with that is the red "filters" don't do anything and are junk, I run paper filters on all my garden tractors and they all do fine and only one has a mechanical fuel pump, the rest are gravity fed, the red disc filters will let contamination into the carb 100 percent of the time
Hi Mustie, you have quite possibly tried this before but in case you haven't, I was faced with the same problem as you recently regarding junk in the bottom of a fuel tank. This tank also would have been laborious to remove so instead I used a length of clear hose to syphon the dirty fuel and "junk" from the bottom of the tank in a similar fashion to "vacuming " a swimming pool. It worked well, saved a lot of time and the hose being clear meant that I could see the progress I was making! I hope you this idea may be of help to someone else in the same situation. Thanks for another great and as usual, very informative video. I feel that I like many others I have learnt a lot from you! Cheers Robert (Tasmania Australia 🇦🇺)
@@shawndouglass2939 no matey sorry! I have lived here for only 14 years or so and therefore I still have about 40 years until I "might be" considered a local!!👍 Cheers mate
The bug is called an Earwig. And you should put spacers under the fuel tank mounts to get it higher above the motor. As is, if it is oriented the wrong way on even a slight incline, it will starve for fuel. 1 inch spacers will do the job.
I was surprised throughout the whole video he didn’t tip the unit as part of the troubleshooting. I couldn’t figure out why he didn’t, probably he knew it would just die I guess.
And double check that both the wheel diameter and “skid” height on on the bottom front of the frame are to spec which could also tilt the entire unit to the point that fuel flow is hampered.
It's fun to have a coffee and watch someone who knows what they're doing repair things than to watch bandits destroy public property with their vehicles and burglary.
Great video again, I wish you all the success possible. I have worked on small engines for 50 years. ( not bad for being born in '64) I know that fuel filters that have a paper medium starve gravity fuel systems. A screen type filter should be used.
When the carb has a drain, a good way to see the fuel level inside the carb while the engine is running is to put a piece of transparent hose with the other end above the carb and open the drain. The level at the hose will be the same of the bow.
I've seen that kind of a blockage in a semi. A loose wire in the tank went up the fuel line AKA allen wrench, and block the fuel. The bug I Believe came from manufacturing before the fuel tank was put in place.
@@teddypilny9404 Typically, bugs get in when refuelling, usually through a funnel that has been hanging up or laying around in an outbuilding. It is particularly common with garden maintenance stuff like mowers and brush cutters, but anything which is likely to be filled that way is suspect. I always make the first step on troubleshooting such issues a clear fuel line though. It just makes everything so much easier.
We had one (not the same model) at work that did the same thing. We removed the tank assembly and remounted it on top of the bars which gained a little over an inch in drop. That fixed it. We also just make sure to keep it filled regularly during operation so it never gets that low. Great job troubleshooting!
I agree w/ several comments: Just rise fuel tank some 3", (I'd use urethane truck body / frame spacers), and re.route fuel line and / or shield it from generator / engine heat. Most likely it'd work better. BTW: Yamaha 4 stroke engines are quite reliable.
your joking right? that tank height has nothing to do with it. all it needs is a 1/2" drop when the tank is all most empty,, a full tank half a tank, 1/4 tank all give a ton of head presser,, stop and think man..
@@arnoldromppai5395 Liquid head pressure is only about 1/2 psi per foot. When the fuel level is barely higher than the carb, the pressure is practically zero; not nearly "a ton!"
Mustie1, you have taught me sooo much on troubleshooting engines and electrical issues over the past few years. Thank You so much!...... I have had success in finding a few problems and then correcting them . Love your show !
I repaired and owned this same exact generator and I had the same issue with the fuel flow. I was able to solve to problem by rerouting the fuel lines a little lower. The lack of a significant elevation change in combinations with the restriction of the float valve just doesn't fill the bowl fast enough when the fuel pressure decreases when it gets lower in the tank.
Wondering why you never put a small temporary fuel tank on top and feed directly from that. That would eliminate all the potential gravity feeding etc. problems you were suggesting.
Testing the hypothesis: if it starts to cut out again with a small amount of fuel left, tilt the machine to raise the tank a few inches in relation to the carb to see if the engine then runs OK again.
I’d relocate tank to the upper side of orange rails/bars/pipes, opposed to under mounted like it currently is. By doing this you raise tank 1”+ solves many questions in one easy move
Set the tires on a 2x6. That will raise the fuel tank outlet by 1.5 inches while the carb will still be at the same approximate level. It will also eliminate the fuel line from running uphill.
The fact your problem arose when the fuel pressure decreased by lowering the level of your tank pretty much sums up the problem. I would consider removing the filter and see if that takes care of it. If not, replace the fuel lines to eliminate any chance they are causing a restriction. Thereafter you can even consider raising the tank, if that's possible. You should also identify any source of heat by the lines which could be causing vapor lock. I think you have this figured out. Good luck.
A vacuum pulse operated fuel pump would be better than raising the tank. I'd change the lines and if the problem still exists, I'd just add a pulse pump. They are used in situations when the fuel tank in not in an optimal position.
I probably would have ran it with a external tank to see if we could reproduce it. Completely isolating the suspected tank and line setup. This way if it did go out we could rule that out completely. I like the idea of a clear fuel line too, but I would only do that if the external tank didn't show any issues.
Don't know if it was already answered, but I am guessing that removable module is so you can run it into a house, camper, etc so that the gennie stays outside to prevent accidental carbon monoxide suffocation. A few years back, after a cyclone hit the coast, several people died of this as they had the generator positioned inside their garage to power their fridges, etc. With this generator, that would be eliminated by running that module inside and having the main unit venting gases outside the home. Very clever, will buy 1 of these myself once the house is finished as I am getting a generator switch built into the meter box outside. Also could provide a bit more security, have the main unit behind a cage/fence and locked away and then run the extension module, or even just the extension cabling to the meter box.
Possibly a couple different things contributing to the fuel issue, low elevation tank along with the paper filter. I think you nailed it. I give your diagnoses a 95%. Thanks Mustie, Merry xmas!
Instead of rerouting the fuel lines, I would just raise the tank. The way the line goes up from the fuel tank, made it my first thought of what was wrong. Great video as always.
change out the fuel lines AND get the smaller filter, remove the possibility of a combination of minor problems, Great video as always and very helpfull
I was always under the impression that those filters are only for the bigger engines with the diaphragm fuel pumps as you mentioned. That was my I tail thought. Great vid once again 👍🏼
The thing that is so appealing with your videos Mustie1, is it feels like you are right there with you in the shop, looking over your shoulder and contributing to the repair. So glad you are back from the Covid and not having too much longhaulers! Videos on Wednesday is such a treat! I too have learned so much from this channel! Happy Holidays to everyone especially Mustie1 and family. Thanxz
Looking at the parts breakdown the stock fuel filter is a screen type filter. Someone added that paper filter which I can pretty much guarantee is causing the problem. I've dealt with this on motorcycles before and if there's not enough pressure pushing through the filter it will cause all sorts of weird running issues. Replace that paper filter with the stock one and I bet it will work fine.
@@bittertruth6575 the filters position won't make much difference in this case because it's the amount of head pressure that determines its ability to push through the filter. Velocity is going to be the same everywhere in the hose.
It only has 20 hours on it. I would guess the filter was replaced because of the running issue, likely when the carb was replaced. But I agree, install stock type filter, fill the tank and run until dies. Should make 24 hours with a good load.
@@michaelslattery2121 yeah the running issue was very likely something else. Either the stock filter was clogged or someone took the shotgun approach and replaced a bunch of stuff one of which was that filter which caused the current problem. It's also possible someone replaced the filter as an "upgrade". I've seen that happen before on motorcycles
@@DoRC There is a pressure drop across the filter - the more restrictive, the more pressure drop.. in a gravity feed the pressure is a function on gravity and head and if you drop more across the filter, you have less to push the flow and the flow will be less too.
You finally got around to what I was thinking...the fuel filter. The surging just before it wants to die is a major clue that it's starting to run lean, especially as the fuel level got low. I think that, in conjunction with the paper filter causing extra "drag" and the relatively flat fuel line without much of a drop in distance between the tank and carburetor, combined to starve it for fuel. IMHO
Yes, I have a Deere tractor which uses a similar pleated filter, but only because it has a fuel pump. Plain round filters with little metal screens tend to be better with gravity fed systems.
I was shouting 'fuel filter!' 10 mins in to the video. Just because a filter looks clean does not mean that it is not contaminated (ethanol fuel and water strikes again?). Strange that the filter also allowed so much gunk to pass through. The clips on the filter makes it looks like an OEM fitting but a bad location to have an unsupported filter. I wonder if the engines had problems with water and the factory added the filters later?
I agree with the folks suggesting raising up the gas tank a few inches. To test the theory, why not just put a simple can of gas on top of the existing tank and run a gas line to carb from it. Strap the gas can down with something then let her rip for as long as she'll run. That should let you know soon enough if its due to the line from original tank being too level with carb. Great stuff as always!
I just watched a James Condon video about this type of generator and he pointed out that on newer versions the tank was redesigned so the outlet was closer to the carb instead of the long line that passed over several hot points along with the up/down hills of the line itself.
It's important to note that even a slight tilt backwards (handle is pushed down) would bring the fuel level even lower and the carburetor even higher, perhaps enough that the carb was higher than the fuel level
Your vids are the best i have found probably 8 things and repaired them using knowledge you taught me.2 i kept 3 i gave to family and 3 i sold on for a nice chunk of change.great to see you back and healthy and keep the videos coming
I echo what a few have already said: with the fuel line so close to level, even a small incline the wrong way (driveways usually slope down away from garages) would elevate the carb feed to level or even higher than the tank level. Certainly slow the fuel feed rate.
Just an idea, but when I had similar problems, as soon as the engine started losing power I removed the gas cap and blew into the tank, raising the pressure. This brought the power straight back up confirming the problem as being fuel flow related.
I don't run element style fuel filters on engines without fuel pumps. Just run the small screen style filter. Don't know if someone replaced the filter with the wrong style unless you look to see what style filter it was designed to use.
I agree that clear fuel line is a great idea to be able to see what's going on. @Mustie1 to prove your theory you could simply tilt the generator to give the fuel continuous fall. Then see if it will keep running when the fuel gets low. Keep up the great work. Glad to see you are back to good health.
Similar problem on a yamaha pressure washer. Ended up being the oil level. The oil pump would get oil up into the head, but the oil return holes in the head gasket was too small, so the oil would build up in the valve cover and lower the oil level to below the low oil sensor and kill power to the ignition. Wait a couple minutes, oil gets through the return holes, and back down to the crankcase and covers the low oil sensor, and it gives power to the ignition and the carburator solenoid and now you've got spark and fuel again, until the head fills with oil and kills the carb solenoid(float (bowl will be empty) and ignition. We've also seen that issue from using too thick viscosity oil, takes too long to return to the crankcase. 5-w30 works good on these.
My guess is the paper filter. Fuel additives are oil based. The oil saturates the paper and prevents gravity’s influence for natural flow That is why 2 strokes have strainer filters
Great to see you this morning. I agree with you, a new fuel line, change filter, reroute fuel line, maybe raise the fuel tank an 1"or 2". As always really enjoy watching your program. Take care 👍
I love this diagnostic step by step approach. The comments are rewarding in that they have excellent spelling and punctuation which so many social media posts do not have. That definitely says something about the level of intelligence. Cheers everyone !
I remember yrs ago, a woman brought her car into our shop complaining of it dyeing on her a few times. after checking ignition system, fuel, compression, timing, we could not replicate the problem. I even thought it might be a coil problem when it got hot. after another time dyeing on her we dropped the gas tank and found that she was putting additives in the gas, and the seal from one of the bottles was plugging the fuel take-up
I had the same POS for my teardrop camper. Mine did the exact same thing almost immediate after purchase new, bought mine from Camping World and they tried to fix it several times without success. I finally tore into it and it turned out to be a fuel line issue. Once I got it so it would run without shutting down some turd stole it along with the two fuel cans and the entire metal trailer hitch rack I had it chained to off the back of my trailer.
@@M.TTT. I replaced the rubber line with a 3/8 metal line and replaced the filter and fuel valve with a Briggs and Stratton 612 combination fuel filter assembly. A bit overkill but I needed it to work because I don't camp at places with power hookups. Insurance paid out more than what I had invested in it so I replaced it with a small Honda gen and a roof top solar. I'm a retired jet propulsion engineer so I have a tendency to overbuild everything, at least thats what my wife says anyways.
@@robertheinkel6225 It does okay, it keeps the batteries charged up so I have reading lights at night and I can keep my phone, iPad and laptop charged up. I try not to run the generator that often just because I like the silence of nature. I built my trailer so I have a water storage tank with a reverse osmosis filter on it so I can have fresh potable water at the galley when needed. Water pump requires the generator and drains the batteries pretty quick to fill a thirty gallon tank.
FYI , there are two types of fuel filters . One made for gravy feed , the other to be used with a fuel pump . The filters for a pump are finer , more restrictive . I think if change or remove it the issue will go away . I would also raise the tank at least a 1/2 inch higher . Has the tank been removed for cleaning and lost mounting spacers ? Does it drop in from the top or from underneath ? Put a 1 inch lift under the wheels for testing purposes . It doesn’t look level on camera 👍
100% this. I had this EXACT issue with a ride-on mower a few years ago & it had one of these clear filters fitted. Replaced it with a proper Briggs & Stratton red filter, issue solved!
I just worked in one of these last weekend. Found that curved tube at the bottom of the tank blocked. Your right... the tank is hard to clean out. At least it's easy access next time.
I'm surprised you didn't try a different, temporary fuel tank positioned much higher above it, along with some different fuel line. Perhaps the solution is to modify it to position the fuel tank higher up. Good job, as always. I learn so much! Merry Christmas!
Also expected you to pull the tank and give a good clean-out. That nasty bug was definitely large enough to block the flow. What is that red thing in the tank, too?
Don't do this to me... I'm retired. I have enough problems trying to figure out what day it is without you popping up with another video midweek... I thought it was Sunday!
You and James Condon covered this very well and it was on pretty much identical generators. I believe James had warmer weather that pointed toward vapor lock. I like the idea of "re-routing" the fuel lines or perhaps adding spacers to the fuel tank to change the flow of fuel to a more downward path. I can't tell on the video if the design would allow for that option to be added. Either way I believe a lot of this type of generator design with the lower fuel tank can cause this issue.... Or just don't let the fuel get too low !!!
Mustie1 you are absolutely spoiling us with another midweek mustie1 video. You totally just made my day so much better got up this morning threw my back out on top of herniating another disc and pitching my sciatic nerve. Charles needless to say I'm going to be laid up for the day for sure and this just made it that much more tolerable thank you Darren truly truly do appreciate all the work you put in your videos for us and through all the years of growing your channel you're one of the few UA-camrs that I watch faithfully and the big part of it is nothing has changed yeah you have a better shop and you do some builds that you could have done in the past. I like to think you're a really good place and you get to just truly enjoy wrenching in the shop with us guys and gals.
I think that pleaded fabric filter is adding just a little bit too much flow resistance when the fuel level is low enough. I believe the red fuel filters have a relatively fine but free or flowing wire screen inside. If you were to check the fuel flow at a low fuel level, after the fuel filter, I think you'd find that the flow rate would be low enough to starve the engine. Great video, thorough diagnostics, and spot on with identifying the issue! Thanks for sharing
As a last ditch I would make some spacers at the fuel tank mounting points and raise it up roughly an inch. I agree that that is a mariginal design on their part. Nice work Darren !
What about creating some spacers to lift the tank up 2-3" to get more of a drop? Assuming the wires have some slack. Also have to permanently lock off the folding push handle.
I think you're spot on with your diagnosis, looks like a poor design on the tank side, can you rig up your fuel tank to give the fuel flow more gravity/ get the tank higher like you've done before etc?? As always love this chanel! 👌
I’ve said it many times, those pleated paper filters are intended for use with fuel pumps. They don’t work well or even at all on gravity feed fuel systems. Seen it many times. Use a red plastic disc type Briggs fuel filter with the screen. They are designed for gravity feed systems. The height of the fuel tank has nothing to do with it. As long as the fuel level in the tank is higher than he float bowl, gravity will make the fuel flow.
My first instinct was a sticky float needle, but the paper filter could also cause the same effect with a low head of fuel in the tank...I'm also of the opinion, these filters are supposed to be used in vertical fuel lines. Not horizontal as they get an air bubble in them ..🤔🤔🤔😳🇬🇧
I think you are correct but i have had a very similar problem on a diesel tractor. The previous owner had removed the in tank brass sock and when refitting managed to get a little piece of PTFE tape in the tank. Occasionally it would cover the fuel feed outlet. I cleaned the tank out including the small piece of tape and no more problems. An internal tank sock is a good idea, just a brass gauze in all fuel tank systems.
One thing I noticed about the design is that when you move the generator around on its wheels you have to tilt it back which will raise the level of the fuel line relative to the gas tank outlet. I wonder if this could create an airlock when moving it around. This also supports your theory that the fuel line isn't well placed.
I was thinking the same thing. I couldn't tell if the tank is sitting on top of the panel. But I'm thinking 2 or 3 metal rings under the tank would resolve this.
I vote fuel filter. I have a CPE generator that I added one of those paper filters to the fuel line. When the filter was new it ran OK. After a few hours of run time I started having problems with fuel flow. Those paper filters clog easily especially from bad gasoline. They can clog in a few minutes from old or bad gas. I recommend replacing that crap paper filter with a B&S style screen filter, and using a good fuel treatment for you stored gas.
First thing, consult the owners manual to see how the fuel line was run from the factory, I have a Craftsman generator with a fuel shutoff but no fuel filter. Put the fuel lines back how they came to eliminate that issue, it wouldn't have come from the factory with an intermittent/non-working fuel line system. It seems the fuel cap tests ok, that was the first thing I thought of, although running 10-15 minutes seems a bit long for a vapor lock problem.
Sounds like the fuel issue you talked about, with gravity being the enemy in the design. How about blocking the tank up an inch or so? Or moving the mount tabs to the top of the frame rail? That might help increase the pressure on the line, and the last thing is, use a screen filter, which you also mentioned. Good stuff, Darren!
Yea think he mentioned changing out the fuel filter with a red screen hey could make a lift with some 1 inch tubing weld it to frame that would give it the lift BUT that is time consuming I would think .
Lower those feet on the front of the cage. If there is a lot of fuel in the tank then there is better head pressure. It seemed to have more problems when low on fuel (less head pressure). The restrictions in the tank exacerbated the problem.
Just started watching this video. Recently had an issue where the oil level switch would short as soon as it got hot. It would shut down until it cooled off when it would run fine.
It's missing a cover on the fuel side that routes the fuel line and covers up those wires, and the fuel line is too high. It's supposed to be attached to that top bolt on the recoil and run beneath where it's currently run. It's like 1-2 inches too high and it has a different filter on it.
EDIT: I suggest replacing the gas line with a clear plastic braided fuel line and either a new fuel filter, a different sort of fuel filter, or simply no fuel filter. It could just be that the fuel filter is defective. With a clear fuel line, you might be able to see something that isn't visible yet. With a clear fuel line, you'd be able to see if there is any vapor lock in the hose. Also, it might be prudent to remove the fuel tank and shoot it out and make certain it's clean. That bug was an "earwig," they're pretty common. They're harmless but they're ugly. Thanks for the content. Keep up the good work. BS'D
agreed and check the fuel switch aswell. apperently not that uncommon they have flawed designs. the one i had for my boat engine had 3 layers of rubber that had to lineup and after a lil bit of useage the middle rubber moved freely which means the vibrations made it open/close by itself
I agree with you : - with a gravity feedin, the fuel line shouldn't have a high point in the corner and the bottom of the tank should be higher - the drag of the paper filter may add to the poor gravity when the gas is low correction : - shorten the (new ?) line between the carburetor and the red valve could eliminate the high point (1 inch maybe ?) - find a way to raise the tank a bit
Put 4" of clear fuel line after the filter and watch the fuel flow, but get rid of that filter first. It is definately a fuel problem, not electrical. The outlet of the fuel tank doesn't matter, it is the height of the fuel in the tank which when full is a good 4" or more above the carb. No flow problems with that.
Change out that paper fuel filter with a screen type. There isn’t a fuel pump on that engine so that paper filter won’t flow enough fuel. It’s probably right on the boarder to where sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t.
Hi. I v'e got a gen working on that has the same problem . Former owner reckoned it would run for about a hour then stop. They normally start the day with a full tank. I have gone over it checked every thing run it. The only thing I found, it has the fuel tap fitted to the tank with filter inside the tank. While draining to check the filter I removed the filler cap from the tank and the flow greatly increased. This has lead me to one of two things. 1.The filler cap seal spreading over the vent hole. have now made notch in the seal. 2 .The two parts of the filer cap pressing together when cap tighten blocking the vent. I have run for three hours no problems
One of the problems I have seen with this generator is that because the fuel line is at a very low (almost parallel) slope is that if the generator is sitting at an angle the fuel indicator will show inadequate fuel level at about one to one and a half quart. There is more fuel than the indicator shows. It is at an angle thus creating an upward flow for the fuel to travel. Which you know this is not possible. The best thing is to ensure the generator is as level as possible. The generator at an angle of six to ten degrees in either direction can cause low to slow to no gravity feed to the carb. The generator didn’t really act up as you had it at a almost level operation. So if the tank level shows fuel and it gets moved and is sitting at an angle is most likely the cause. Hope this will shed some light to the problem with this generator you are working on. Great video. I love these small engine videos you produce. Thank you.
I had a very similar issue with my Piaggio Ape 50, which is like the smallest 3-wheeled van or in my case, pickup (even with a roll bar) with a 50cc 2-stroke engine (though larger models with larger 2-stroke, 4-stroke or even diesel engines also exist), that you've probably ever seen, they're such funny nano "cars". In fact i think you'd get a kick out of one of those, though i would guess they are pretty rare in your part of the world. :) Anyway, it would also bog down and eventually shut off, and i went through pretty much the same trouble shooting steps as you, and after checking the flow of fuel, i also thought that the flow was decent. At a loss of what to do though, i decided as a last ditch effort to remove the fuel pet, to check the internal filter, even though flow looked fine. After removing and cleaning the pet, and reassembling the whole thing, the engine magically ran fine again and it has been running fine ever since. So even though the flow at a glance looked to be okay, it just barely wasn't good enough, so the float bowl emptied itself slowly, leading to sputtering and eventually shutoff when fuel was low enough. It would start right back up too, and run fine again for a few minutes, because the bowl was filling again in a few seconds when the engine turned off. It was just on the edge of being good enough, but not quite. :)
Man you don't quit! That was an entertaining and informative video. I think you nailed it with that deficient drop in height, and the gas filter location and drag on the gas flow. After that much time trying to figure something out, I am ready for the dynamite. Good job as usual Mustie1!
Just a thought, but how about raising the tank just a little with some washers or spacers to increase the level of the outlet without rerouting lines. Awesome video as always bud. Also what is the deal with that green beast on the red trailer, you gonna do a video on that ? Keep ‘em coming !!
@@edrosa5079 - I thought the same thing. Use a pipe cutter and insert some joiners and the whole frame goes up an inch or two. I'd also get a different fuel filter. I think those are the ones that VGG hates.
I would do two things to start with. First off, setup a remote fuel tank so you remove the height issue out of it. Then I would disable the oil remote shut off switch. Two things that can be done within 30 min. or less.
I was just about put the same thing. It seems to be losing a little bit of prime. I would let it sit now for a day. Let it cool off and go for it again because I think it's catching air somewhere. Lift the tank and send it home.
As for the bugs in the tank, my guess is the first owner ran the tank dry to "winterize" it and took off the cap to let the rest evaporate and get rid of the corrosive vapors and then he ended up with a few curious critters in the tank.
Consider that the original owner probably was using it in warmer weather. The vapor lock John Condon found was during warmer weather. Perhaps it being cold might be part of the issue.
I was wondering why you didn't rig up a temporary tank / fuel line and run it. That would have eliminated the entire fuel delivery system from being the problem.
This is a learning channel for people who don’t have a clue or not , go thru the steps to find the problem and someone learns something or are not afraid of tearing into it because they watched this man expertly find the problem, hopefully. I am a handy person and he taught me how to remove a vw bug engine in a timely manner and what to look for in the problem department. In my opinion his posts are gold and he never ask for anything in return.
I think it was a combination of the bugs occasionally obstructing the pickup tube then the fuel filter adding to it. When the fuel got down to a gallon it could not compensate for the multiple restrictions. Enjoyed the video.
Excuse my ignorance. But could you just elevate the gas tank with some longer bolts & an extra nut between the tank & frame ? Should give enough lift to alleviate the issue.
personally, I would test replacing the fuel line, filter, and raising the height of the fuel tank. Maybe consider re-routing the line if possible. Great video. Lots to ponder on this one
James Condon is probably right about vapor lock when the engine is hot and the outdoor temp is also. When you explained about the low drop from the bottom of the tank to the carburettor my first thought was: "Why doesn't it use a fuel pump?" A permanent fix might be to get a pulse fuel pump and add it to the machine. The last two inches of fuel in the tank would be usable then.
Yea i had the same thought too, when i looked at how compressed its design was i would have thought it had a pump, just because it looks like the bottom of the tank is so close to the float bowl, would be nice to know the model number of that generator and see if theres other consumer reports on rigid generators having this run and die issue, because really it just looks like a design fault.
Hi, Mustie: Great video, as always. I think you nailed it with the diagnosis. The bug you fished out of the tank was an EARWIG. We have lots of them during the summer months here in Pennsylvania. They look really threatening, with their large rear pinchers, but actually, they are just a nuisance. My wife and I squash them......we hate them because they can get into practically anything outdoors. Anyway, I really enjoy your videos - very entertaining and educational. Have a great holiday season.
I did see other generators of the same as this one, and some have a paper fuel filters and others don't. But one thing stood out in all of the others is the fuel line location from the fuel tank to the filter. They show the fuel to be located just as you moved it to the proposed location at time 47:22 in your video. So, yes you are right about the high elevated fuel causing an issue. Hope this helps out. Also raising the tank is a great recommended option from other viewers.
I don't think the routing of the fuel line is how it left the factory. My guess is it would have taken a more direct path to the carburetor than the current setup. Without knowing what the previous two owners did it will be difficult to come to an absolute conclusion but I'm thinking the fuel line took a more direct path and there was no fuel filter.
I did a quick search for that model and it's been redone incorrectly by someone before mustie got at it. It's missing a cover and the fuel line is higher than it's supposed to be. It looks like a simple fix and we might not see the unit again on the channel unless it's just an update or something.
one of our plate tampers at work, when the fuel gets low starts to sputter and run rough, eventually dying, but by low i mean an inch or 2 and not completely empty when it dies, I suspect the vibration causes it so suck some air when the fuel is only an inch or two, and that is not the only small engine i've experienced it with, just the most recent. Great vid, great content.
I have this same model and it has been incredibly reliable. I did the fuel line adjustment because it did the same thing, run and shut off. Once I made that adjustment it never shut off again. It takes care of our home whenever we lose power with no issues.
Maybe worth considering: Some generators (like the ONAN on my RV) will monitor voltage/freq and shut-down if the generator is out of spec for too long. Granted, the ONAN will give out error codes which is helpful. As I watched, the generator started hunting and that could be a governor issue which is mechanical. The fact that it runs for a bit before doing that probably means the governor needs to be inspected (internally in the engine). And I'd be willing to guess if the control module has both a voltage input from the generator section and a control lead to the magnetos, when the generator starts hunting like that, the control module sees the voltage/freq fall too far out of spec and shuts down. (if there's no control to the mags other than an off/gnd switch, that scratches that idea) Just a thought.
Hunting can also be a fuel issue. Too little fuel flow to fill the carb bowl will make it hunt when the bowl gets low. Definitely wrong fuel filter, wrong fuel line routing and maybe vapor lock on this one.
The first time it stalled was most likely a stuck needle. The subsequent times likely due to vapor lock. The tank design is poor. The fuel tank outlet is barely above the level of the carburetor and the fuel line long and routed in such a way that it picks up a lot of heat from the engine and stator. I made a video about a year ago dealing with a similar issue on a Ridgid generator with a Yamaha MZ360 engine. I found that everything ran fine when under load. But once the engine was nice and hot, if I removed the load the fuel demands would drop giving the fuel more time to heat soak in the fuel line and turn into vapor. If you want to reproduce the issue easier, replace the fuel line with Tygon fuel lines so you can see what's going on with vapor bubbles. Run the generator under load for a while to get things nice and hot. Then take the load off and it will stall shortly after. I would suspect the issue will be harder to reproduce this time of year since daytime temps are low. Ideally the pressure from the gravity feed fuel tank should push out the vapor when the needle opens. Because the pressure is so low from this tank, the vapor does not clear. The vapor bubbles are rising toward the tank. At some point the pressure from the bubbles pushing up equals the pressure of the gravity pulling the fuel down and the carb runs dry. Ridgid did put a sticker in the generator stating "Zero Gravity", guess they were not kidding. Generators usually have a flat bottom tank and the fuel outlet close to the carburetor, not on the other side of the generator. More recent Ridgid models have a flat bottom tank with the fuel outlet moved to the front. There was a recall on the model I was working on. Google "Ridgid 461218" to find the notice. Hope that helps.
This is the perfect answer. James' video shows the exact issue that Mustie is having and he has great fix.
g`day james i left a link to your video on this generator and same problem before seeing your comment i enjoy your videos i think i have watched them all ..you mustie and tyrell are my favorite small engine fix blokes its a bit early but happy xmas to you and the family...... cheers for all the content
Great answer!
There’s your dinner, and your answer. Merry Christmas
Great reply. I’m a huge fan. Merry Christmas
The stuff you learn on this channel for FREE is just priceless! I love how he gets to the ground of problrms to learn whats going on! Thank you Sir !!!
We had a similar problem once in a small engine. It ended up being that the fuel filter was not the recommended for the engine, it was for particles of smaller microns and it ended up slowing the flow. The engine would not shut but it would loose power every 10 minutes or so, then, after a minute or two, as the flow regained volume, the engine would go back to running normally for another 10 minutes and so on. Replaced the filter with the right one and problem was gone. Not saying this is the problem here, it just reminded me of our problem and wanted to let everyone be aware of the possibility.
@German Bellini : I agree 100%. That is probably not the original, factory filter and it is definitely the wrong filter for that application. Mustie described it's inappropriateness for this motor and earlier in the video noted that fuel lines were not the same. Somebody probably thought it would be good to have a filter since bugs were renting room in the tank. The tank is plenty high above the carb. Just like on nearly every other small gas motor Mustie has worked on...he needs to ditch the filter!!! (Or install the "screen" version he described.)
On scooters, mopeds an all angine under 50cc you don't have fuel pump, this paper filter is not good. Change with plastic or metal net filter, problem solved. But in the same time check fuel cap... i have it this problem on one scooter... built vacumm in fuel tank.
It might of been in a unlevel location when the original owner , because of fuel line routing from the factory, and the size of fuel line can be undersized for the demands needed at rated operational specs .
@@jorgecostales8232 I had issuses with a B&S Motor on a small 2kVA Genset. It has the same behaviour . I took the whole damn thing apart but everything was fine. I was really close to give up. I realize at my last try that the rubber petrol hose was vibrating while the engine run. This vibration let the fuel stuck in the line. I replaced the rubber hose against a piece of rigid fuel line. After this the engine run fine without any further trouble.
Maybe it could the cause on the genset in the video here as well. I got another bigger genset also with an 2 cyl. B&S engine. This engine got rigdid fuel lines from factory.
That is the wrong filter to use on a gravity fed fuel tank. That filter is used on mowers with fuel pumps.
Not a 70%, you get a 100%. Love this troubleshooting video. Out of the USAF Maintenance, F101, 102, 106s, and F4’s all needed this detailed troubleshooting and determination. Many pilots survived due to this level of determination. Thanks Mustie.l
At this point I would get rid of the filter.
This is the kind of invaluable troubleshooting that I have come to enjoy so much from your videos. I know it’s a lot of extra work to show the troubleshooting process, especially with something like this where you don’t have a pretty good idea ahead of time what the problem is, but I really appreciate that you go to all the extra work. Thank you again!
I can see the problem is made in China recopy it but never isn't quite right
I also enjoy, and learn, seeing how different people think while trouble shooting.
Troubleshooting skills my A. He confirmed early on it was fuel. Saw contaminated fuel and cleaned the fuel system except for the hose to carb connection. A place very prone for crap to get stuck. The exact place where he clamped the hose after the first test and the machine was fixed. Flew right over his head. However the fuel filter not having enough flow is another good theory.
Don’t listen to all the nonsense he said about air in the lines and in the fuel filter. There is always a little air in lines and the filter. The excess air in the system only becomes a slight problem when starting the engine. The height and the slight bend in hose is fine.
@@bobhandymen2578 I don't think this is a copy from China. Yamaha, definitely Japan.
I don't own a generator but by watching the troubleshooting, I'm learning a lot about the inner workings of one. I guess I'm just a sponge. I love learning how things work. The way you convey what's going on and what you're looking and your thought process is expressed very well. Some guys would just mumble and start fiddling and unintentionally leave you in the dark.
James Condon did one of these on his channel. Same issue, the fuel line was vapor locking when it got hot and ran it out of fuel. Rerouting the fuel line took care of the issue I believe.
Yea I saw it to , James Condon knows his stuff !
You basically created a spoiler for the video.
@@mph5896 still worth watching to go thru the steps of eliminating what it might be. I thought for sure it would be a bee.
My generator has the filter in the tank.That one looks like the home oner added it. Had a lawn tractor once that I did the same with the same result.
condon... what a very unfortunate name
I agree with the filter. I'm told that the paper type filter is to be use only with a fuel pump. The red one should be used on gravity feed. Keep up the good work Ron's Small engine Service. Love all your videos
This one is fine. Just needs more height on the tank for better pressure.
@@Will-sc3hw Wrong, requires a red filter with metal screen. I have the same generator stock, and it has the red filter.
You tell him Ron. Backtracking from what enthusiastic previous owners have done and failed generally shows non-factory modifications.
Big DR Field and Brush mowers use the same fuel line setup with the same paper in-line fuel filter. They are also gravity fed from the tank (tank equipped with red screen filter inside). Same level routing to the carb, seems to work fine although I wouldn't do that design.
@@pville5548 the only problem with that is the red "filters" don't do anything and are junk, I run paper filters on all my garden tractors and they all do fine and only one has a mechanical fuel pump, the rest are gravity fed, the red disc filters will let contamination into the carb 100 percent of the time
Hi Mustie, you have quite possibly tried this before but in case you haven't, I was faced with the same problem as you recently regarding junk in the bottom of a fuel tank. This tank also would have been laborious to remove so instead I used a length of clear hose to syphon the dirty fuel and "junk" from the bottom of the tank in a similar fashion to "vacuming " a swimming pool. It worked well, saved a lot of time and the hose being clear meant that I could see the progress I was making!
I hope you this idea may be of help to someone else in the same situation. Thanks for another great and as usual, very informative video. I feel that I like many others I have learnt a lot from you!
Cheers Robert
(Tasmania Australia 🇦🇺)
Hey, you ever run into Marcus House, in your neck of the woods??😊
@@shawndouglass2939 no matey sorry! I have lived here for only 14 years or so and therefore I still have about 40 years until I "might be" considered a local!!👍 Cheers mate
I think adding temporarily adding adding a piece of clear fuel line between the filter and carb might quickly tell the story .
The bug is called an Earwig. And you should put spacers under the fuel tank mounts to get it higher above the motor. As is, if it is oriented the wrong way on even a slight incline, it will starve for fuel. 1 inch spacers will do the job.
I was surprised throughout the whole video he didn’t tip the unit as part of the troubleshooting. I couldn’t figure out why he didn’t, probably he knew it would just die I guess.
And double check that both the wheel diameter and “skid” height on on the bottom front of the frame are to spec which could also tilt the entire unit to the point that fuel flow is hampered.
We called them pinchers when I was a child. Yes, its an earwig.
Thank you for keep doing these video's , you are a great distraction from all the rubbish going on in this world of madness , keep up the great work
It's fun to have a coffee and watch someone who knows what they're doing repair things than to watch bandits destroy public property with their vehicles and burglary.
You can tell by the way it dies ii is Fuel.
@@robertshelton3796 you guys can get a new phone for you guys
Great video again, I wish you all the success possible.
I have worked on small engines for 50 years. ( not bad for being born in '64) I know that fuel filters that have a paper medium starve gravity fuel systems. A screen type filter should be used.
When the carb has a drain, a good way to see the fuel level inside the carb while the engine is running is to put a piece of transparent hose with the other end above the carb and open the drain. The level at the hose will be the same of the bow.
oh yes that's what i always do on motorcycles to check the float hight while engine is runnin
Water distillers (or anything with a water tank) often have a tube outisde / alongside the tank to see the level like that. Smart!
You are a patient man!
I've seen that kind of a blockage in a semi. A loose wire in the tank went up the fuel line AKA allen wrench, and block the fuel. The bug I Believe came from manufacturing before the fuel tank was put in place.
@@teddypilny9404 Typically, bugs get in when refuelling, usually through a funnel that has been hanging up or laying around in an outbuilding. It is particularly common with garden maintenance stuff like mowers and brush cutters, but anything which is likely to be filled that way is suspect.
I always make the first step on troubleshooting such issues a clear fuel line though. It just makes everything so much easier.
We had one (not the same model) at work that did the same thing. We removed the tank assembly and remounted it on top of the bars which gained a little over an inch in drop. That fixed it. We also just make sure to keep it filled regularly during operation so it never gets that low. Great job troubleshooting!
I agree w/ several comments: Just rise fuel tank some 3", (I'd use urethane truck body / frame spacers), and re.route fuel line and / or shield it from generator / engine heat. Most likely it'd work better. BTW: Yamaha 4 stroke engines are quite reliable.
The spacer idea would remedy the poor design quit well...
your joking right? that tank height has nothing to do with it. all it needs is a 1/2" drop when the tank is all most empty,, a full tank half a tank, 1/4 tank all give a ton of head presser,, stop and think man..
@@koningbolo4700 there is nothing wrong with the design .. stop being a follower of dumb comments
@@arnoldromppai5395 The whole generator looks 'kludge'
@@arnoldromppai5395 Liquid head pressure is only about 1/2 psi per foot. When the fuel level is barely higher than the carb, the pressure is practically zero; not nearly "a ton!"
Mustie1, you have taught me sooo much on troubleshooting engines and electrical issues over the past few years. Thank You so much!...... I have had success in finding a few problems and then correcting them . Love your show !
1
I repaired and owned this same exact generator and I had the same issue with the fuel flow. I was able to solve to problem by rerouting the fuel lines a little lower. The lack of a significant elevation change in combinations with the restriction of the float valve just doesn't fill the bowl fast enough when the fuel pressure decreases when it gets lower in the tank.
probly changes by altitude also i bet eh?
Wondering why you never put a small temporary fuel tank on top and feed directly from that. That would eliminate all the potential gravity feeding etc. problems you were suggesting.
I was thinking the same thing.also I would have put 1 inch risers under the gas tank and called it a day .that has to be the problem
Testing the hypothesis: if it starts to cut out again with a small amount of fuel left, tilt the machine to raise the tank a few inches in relation to the carb to see if the engine then runs OK again.
Tilt the machine it will die from the low oil shut off
good idea, that would have shown it was fuel delivery.
Angle !! move gas tank..
the fuel line isn't where it was designed to be. It's too high.
This
I’d relocate tank to the upper side of orange rails/bars/pipes, opposed to under mounted like it currently is. By doing this you raise tank 1”+ solves many questions in one easy move
Set the tires on a 2x6. That will raise the fuel tank outlet by 1.5 inches while the carb will still be at the same approximate level. It will also eliminate the fuel line from running uphill.
Over fill the tires with air or get oversized tires for it
The fact your problem arose when the fuel pressure decreased by lowering the level of your tank pretty much sums up the problem. I would consider removing the filter and see if that takes care of it. If not, replace the fuel lines to eliminate any chance they are causing a restriction. Thereafter you can even consider raising the tank, if that's possible. You should also identify any source of heat by the lines which could be causing vapor lock. I think you have this figured out. Good luck.
A vacuum pulse operated fuel pump would be better than raising the tank. I'd change the lines and if the problem still exists, I'd just add a pulse pump. They are used in situations when the fuel tank in not in an optimal position.
I probably would have ran it with a external tank to see if we could reproduce it. Completely isolating the suspected tank and line setup. This way if it did go out we could rule that out completely. I like the idea of a clear fuel line too, but I would only do that if the external tank didn't show any issues.
the fuel line isn't in the factory position. It's been redone and routed too high where the fuel shut off valve is.
Don't know if it was already answered, but I am guessing that removable module is so you can run it into a house, camper, etc so that the gennie stays outside to prevent accidental carbon monoxide suffocation. A few years back, after a cyclone hit the coast, several people died of this as they had the generator positioned inside their garage to power their fridges, etc. With this generator, that would be eliminated by running that module inside and having the main unit venting gases outside the home. Very clever, will buy 1 of these myself once the house is finished as I am getting a generator switch built into the meter box outside. Also could provide a bit more security, have the main unit behind a cage/fence and locked away and then run the extension module, or even just the extension cabling to the meter box.
Possibly a couple different things contributing to the fuel issue, low elevation tank along with the paper filter. I think you nailed it. I give your diagnoses a 95%. Thanks Mustie, Merry xmas!
Would they recall them? All models sold have same issues?
Probably wasn't manufactured with a paper filter.
@@twinkie27271 What I thought too. Bet Mustie could get an owners manual to see if it is a stock filter or not.
You could change the fuel line and put clear fuel hose on it the exact same length. See what it does.
Excellent work,, do you own that now!? 😁
Instead of rerouting the fuel lines, I would just raise the tank. The way the line goes up from the fuel tank, made it my first thought of what was wrong. Great video as always.
change out the fuel lines AND get the smaller filter, remove the possibility of a combination of minor problems, Great video as always and very helpfull
I was always under the impression that those filters are only for the bigger engines with the diaphragm fuel pumps as you mentioned. That was my I tail thought. Great vid once again 👍🏼
The thing that is so appealing with your videos Mustie1, is it feels like you are right there with you in the shop, looking over your shoulder and contributing to the repair. So glad you are back from the Covid and not having too much longhaulers! Videos on Wednesday is such a treat! I too have learned so much from this channel! Happy Holidays to everyone especially Mustie1 and family. Thanxz
I’ll drink to that!
Ditto.
Hi mistle I live in the 🇬🇧 and love you videos I've learnt much watching you wrench and pass on you knowledge to others thanks.
Looking at the parts breakdown the stock fuel filter is a screen type filter. Someone added that paper filter which I can pretty much guarantee is causing the problem. I've dealt with this on motorcycles before and if there's not enough pressure pushing through the filter it will cause all sorts of weird running issues. Replace that paper filter with the stock one and I bet it will work fine.
Yup paper fuel filters really only work with engines that have a fuel pump. Should have a screen type filter.
@@bittertruth6575 the filters position won't make much difference in this case because it's the amount of head pressure that determines its ability to push through the filter. Velocity is going to be the same everywhere in the hose.
It only has 20 hours on it. I would guess the filter was replaced because of the running issue, likely when the carb was replaced.
But I agree, install stock type filter, fill the tank and run until dies. Should make 24 hours with a good load.
@@michaelslattery2121 yeah the running issue was very likely something else. Either the stock filter was clogged or someone took the shotgun approach and replaced a bunch of stuff one of which was that filter which caused the current problem. It's also possible someone replaced the filter as an "upgrade". I've seen that happen before on motorcycles
@@DoRC There is a pressure drop across the filter - the more restrictive, the more pressure drop.. in a gravity feed the pressure is a function on gravity and head and if you drop more across the filter, you have less to push the flow and the flow will be less too.
You finally got around to what I was thinking...the fuel filter. The surging just before it wants to die is a major clue that it's starting to run lean, especially as the fuel level got low. I think that, in conjunction with the paper filter causing extra "drag" and the relatively flat fuel line without much of a drop in distance between the tank and carburetor, combined to starve it for fuel. IMHO
Yes, I have a Deere tractor which uses a similar pleated filter, but only because it has a fuel pump. Plain round filters with little metal screens tend to be better with gravity fed systems.
The scorched spark plug backs up the lean running hypothesis too.
I was shouting 'fuel filter!' 10 mins in to the video. Just because a filter looks clean does not mean that it is not contaminated (ethanol fuel and water strikes again?). Strange that the filter also allowed so much gunk to pass through. The clips on the filter makes it looks like an OEM fitting but a bad location to have an unsupported filter. I wonder if the engines had problems with water and the factory added the filters later?
I agree with the folks suggesting raising up the gas tank a few inches. To test the theory, why not just put a simple can of gas on top of the existing tank and run a gas line to carb from it. Strap the gas can down with something then let her rip for as long as she'll run. That should let you know soon enough if its due to the line from original tank being too level with carb. Great stuff as always!
Could just lean it, run it on a hill so the back fuel tank is an inch or so higher
I just watched a James Condon video about this type of generator and he pointed out that on newer versions the tank was redesigned so the outlet was closer to the carb instead of the long line that passed over several hot points along with the up/down hills of the line itself.
it would be interesting to see what will happen if you hook up an external fuel source, that set up higher than the original tank
It's important to note that even a slight tilt backwards (handle is pushed down) would bring the fuel level even lower and the carburetor even higher, perhaps enough that the carb was higher than the fuel level
Your vids are the best i have found probably 8 things and repaired them using knowledge you taught me.2 i kept 3 i gave to family and 3 i sold on for a nice chunk of change.great to see you back and healthy and keep the videos coming
I echo what a few have already said: with the fuel line so close to level, even a small incline the wrong way (driveways usually slope down away from garages) would elevate the carb feed to level or even higher than the tank level. Certainly slow the fuel feed rate.
Just an idea, but when I had similar problems, as soon as the engine started losing power I removed the gas cap and blew into the tank, raising the pressure. This brought the power straight back up confirming the problem as being fuel flow related.
Re-route crankcase vent to the tank. It will keep it pressurized. The small hole in the gas gap will keep it from over pressurizing.
I don't run element style fuel filters on engines without fuel pumps. Just run the small screen style filter. Don't know if someone replaced the filter with the wrong style unless you look to see what style filter it was designed to use.
yup, same
I agree that clear fuel line is a great idea to be able to see what's going on. @Mustie1 to prove your theory you could simply tilt the generator to give the fuel continuous fall. Then see if it will keep running when the fuel gets low.
Keep up the great work. Glad to see you are back to good health.
i thought about the angle thing as well. imagine the problem being that the tires are flat! what amazing design and engineering :D
Similar problem on a yamaha pressure washer. Ended up being the oil level. The oil pump would get oil up into the head, but the oil return holes in the head gasket was too small, so the oil would build up in the valve cover and lower the oil level to below the low oil sensor and kill power to the ignition. Wait a couple minutes, oil gets through the return holes, and back down to the crankcase and covers the low oil sensor, and it gives power to the ignition and the carburator solenoid and now you've got spark and fuel again, until the head fills with oil and kills the carb solenoid(float (bowl will be empty) and ignition. We've also seen that issue from using too thick viscosity oil, takes too long to return to the crankcase. 5-w30 works good on these.
My guess is the paper filter.
Fuel additives are oil based.
The oil saturates the paper and prevents gravity’s influence for natural flow
That is why 2 strokes have strainer filters
LOL oil based LOL
Many two strokes don't even have a filter. Just a sediment bowl.
@@sedsberg77 This is a 4 stroke though.
@@twt000 Yes, but it's still gravity fed. Even 2T with separate oil pump (pure gas) often has just the sediment bowl.
Hmm, I wonder where gasoline comes from?😂
Great to see you this morning. I agree with you, a new fuel line, change filter, reroute fuel line, maybe raise the fuel tank an 1"or 2". As always really enjoy watching your program. Take care 👍
I love this diagnostic step by step approach.
The comments are rewarding in that they have excellent spelling and punctuation which so many social media posts do not have. That definitely says something about the level of intelligence.
Cheers everyone !
I remember yrs ago, a woman brought her car into our shop complaining of it dyeing on her a few times. after checking ignition system, fuel, compression, timing, we could not replicate the problem. I even thought it might be a coil problem when it got hot. after another time dyeing on her we dropped the gas tank and found that she was putting additives in the gas, and the seal from one of the bottles was plugging the fuel take-up
I had the same POS for my teardrop camper. Mine did the exact same thing almost immediate after purchase new, bought mine from Camping World and they tried to fix it several times without success. I finally tore into it and it turned out to be a fuel line issue. Once I got it so it would run without shutting down some turd stole it along with the two fuel cans and the entire metal trailer hitch rack I had it chained to off the back of my trailer.
jeez, that blows. Did you just replace the line or ran it better? Was the hitch locked in?
@@M.TTT. I replaced the rubber line with a 3/8 metal line and replaced the filter and fuel valve with a Briggs and Stratton 612 combination fuel filter assembly. A bit overkill but I needed it to work because I don't camp at places with power hookups. Insurance paid out more than what I had invested in it so I replaced it with a small Honda gen and a roof top solar. I'm a retired jet propulsion engineer so I have a tendency to overbuild everything, at least thats what my wife says anyways.
How well does the solar panel work for you?
@@robertheinkel6225 It does okay, it keeps the batteries charged up so I have reading lights at night and I can keep my phone, iPad and laptop charged up. I try not to run the generator that often just because I like the silence of nature. I built my trailer so I have a water storage tank with a reverse osmosis filter on it so I can have fresh potable water at the galley when needed. Water pump requires the generator and drains the batteries pretty quick to fill a thirty gallon tank.
Thank you for allowing us watch you work and to gain some of your knowledge
This is actually a common problem with these generators, they run out of fuel when the fuel gets low in the tank.
FYI , there are two types of fuel filters . One made for gravy feed , the other to be used with a fuel pump . The filters for a pump are finer , more restrictive . I think if change or remove it the issue will go away . I would also raise the tank at least a 1/2 inch higher . Has the tank been removed for cleaning and lost mounting spacers ? Does it drop in from the top or from underneath ? Put a 1 inch lift under the wheels for testing purposes . It doesn’t look level on camera 👍
100% this. I had this EXACT issue with a ride-on mower a few years ago & it had one of these clear filters fitted. Replaced it with a proper Briggs & Stratton red filter, issue solved!
Don't feed me gravy
Mmmm. Gravy.
White gravy or brown gravy?
I want a gravy filter
I just worked in one of these last weekend. Found that curved tube at the bottom of the tank blocked. Your right... the tank is hard to clean out. At least it's easy access next time.
I'm surprised you didn't try a different, temporary fuel tank positioned much higher above it, along with some different fuel line. Perhaps the solution is to modify it to position the fuel tank higher up. Good job, as always. I learn so much! Merry Christmas!
My thought as well.. bad design by the mfr. Tank too low. Add about 1" spacer under tank mounts to improve if possible or add a $10 pulse fuel pump.
was expecting this too
Ditto!!!!
I agree, raise the tank and change the paper filter to the Red filter.
Also expected you to pull the tank and give a good clean-out. That nasty bug was definitely large enough to block the flow. What is that red thing in the tank, too?
Don't do this to me... I'm retired. I have enough problems trying to figure out what day it is without you popping up with another video midweek... I thought it was Sunday!
What a great response! Very funny 😂
You and James Condon covered this very well and it was on pretty much identical generators. I believe James had warmer weather that pointed toward vapor lock. I like the idea of "re-routing" the fuel lines or perhaps adding spacers to the fuel tank to change the flow of fuel to a more downward path. I can't tell on the video if the design would allow for that option to be added. Either way I believe a lot of this type of generator design with the lower fuel tank can cause this issue.... Or just don't let the fuel get too low !!!
I agree with rerouting the fuel line. I suggest you raise the fuel tank a few inches and see if that changes the fuel supply to the carburetor
Mustie1 you are absolutely spoiling us with another midweek mustie1 video. You totally just made my day so much better got up this morning threw my back out on top of herniating another disc and pitching my sciatic nerve. Charles needless to say I'm going to be laid up for the day for sure and this just made it that much more tolerable thank you Darren truly truly do appreciate all the work you put in your videos for us and through all the years of growing your channel you're one of the few UA-camrs that I watch faithfully and the big part of it is nothing has changed yeah you have a better shop and you do some builds that you could have done in the past. I like to think you're a really good place and you get to just truly enjoy wrenching in the shop with us guys and gals.
I think that pleaded fabric filter is adding just a little bit too much flow resistance when the fuel level is low enough. I believe the red fuel filters have a relatively fine but free or flowing wire screen inside. If you were to check the fuel flow at a low fuel level, after the fuel filter, I think you'd find that the flow rate would be low enough to starve the engine.
Great video, thorough diagnostics, and spot on with identifying the issue! Thanks for sharing
As a last ditch I would make some spacers at the fuel tank mounting points and raise it up roughly an inch. I agree that that is a mariginal design on their part. Nice work Darren !
What about creating some spacers to lift the tank up 2-3" to get more of a drop? Assuming the wires have some slack. Also have to permanently lock off the folding push handle.
I like your site and I was a repair man too. And I still do it sometime thank you
I think you're spot on with your diagnosis, looks like a poor design on the tank side, can you rig up your fuel tank to give the fuel flow more gravity/ get the tank higher like you've done before etc??
As always love this chanel! 👌
I’ve said it many times, those pleated paper filters are intended for use with fuel pumps. They don’t work well or even at all on gravity feed fuel systems. Seen it many times. Use a red plastic disc type Briggs fuel filter with the screen. They are designed for gravity feed systems. The height of the fuel tank has nothing to do with it. As long as the fuel level in the tank is higher than he float bowl, gravity will make the fuel flow.
Also paper filters turn to mush if you use them with 2-stroke mix.
@@martinwade9421 was that unit a 4 stroke
Yep I put a paper one on my lawnmower one time, and then I took it right back off lol.
@@johnsmith-ce2tq is sure is, it have oil in the crank case thats the give away, 2 stroke dont have that
@@arnoldromppai5395 it has valves - that’s the giveaway.
My first instinct was a sticky float needle, but the paper filter could also cause the same effect with a low head of fuel in the tank...I'm also of the opinion, these filters are supposed to be used in vertical fuel lines. Not horizontal as they get an air bubble in them ..🤔🤔🤔😳🇬🇧
I have seen plenty of those fuel filters used in horizontal applications though. I normally remove them rather than replace.
Yo yo good morning brother.. looking forward to seeing you on my live this week
That style fuel filter is for engines with a fuel pump. You need the red one with the fine screen element
I think you are correct but i have had a very similar problem on a diesel tractor. The previous owner had removed the in tank brass sock and when refitting managed to get a little piece of PTFE tape in the tank. Occasionally it would cover the fuel feed outlet. I cleaned the tank out including the small piece of tape and no more problems. An internal tank sock is a good idea, just a brass gauze in all fuel tank systems.
One thing I noticed about the design is that when you move the generator around on its wheels you have to tilt it back which will raise the level of the fuel line relative to the gas tank outlet. I wonder if this could create an airlock when moving it around. This also supports your theory that the fuel line isn't well placed.
Hi, good point.👍
I would see if I could raise the fuel tank by putting some shims under mounts. Raising it an inch or so would make a difference.
Exactly, if the fuel tank was raised up about an inch the unit would still be compact and look okay.
I was saying the same thing to the screen : )
I was thinking the same thing. I couldn't tell if the tank is sitting on top of the panel. But I'm thinking 2 or 3 metal rings under the tank would resolve this.
Yepp. Vote to this
I vote fuel filter. I have a CPE generator that I added one of those paper filters to the fuel line. When the filter was new it ran OK. After a few hours of run time I started having problems with fuel flow. Those paper filters clog easily especially from bad gasoline. They can clog in a few minutes from old or bad gas. I recommend replacing that crap paper filter with a B&S style screen filter, and using a good fuel treatment for you stored gas.
First thing, consult the owners manual to see how the fuel line was run from the factory, I have a Craftsman generator with a fuel shutoff but no fuel filter. Put the fuel lines back how they came to eliminate that issue, it wouldn't have come from the factory with an intermittent/non-working fuel line system. It seems the fuel cap tests ok, that was the first thing I thought of, although running 10-15 minutes seems a bit long for a vapor lock problem.
Sounds like the fuel issue you talked about, with gravity being the enemy in the design. How about blocking the tank up an inch or so? Or moving the mount tabs to the top of the frame rail? That might help increase the pressure on the line, and the last thing is, use a screen filter, which you also mentioned.
Good stuff, Darren!
Yea think he mentioned changing out the fuel filter with a red screen hey could make a lift with some 1 inch tubing weld it to frame that would give it the lift BUT that is time consuming I would think .
That’s my thought as well. Bring the tank up an inch or so and the issue would likely go away.
Lower those feet on the front of the cage. If there is a lot of fuel in the tank then there is better head pressure. It seemed to have more problems when low on fuel (less head pressure). The restrictions in the tank exacerbated the problem.
Just started watching this video. Recently had an issue where the oil level switch would short as soon as it got hot. It would shut down until it cooled off when it would run fine.
It's missing a cover on the fuel side that routes the fuel line and covers up those wires, and the fuel line is too high. It's supposed to be attached to that top bolt on the recoil and run beneath where it's currently run. It's like 1-2 inches too high and it has a different filter on it.
EDIT:
I suggest replacing the gas line with a clear plastic braided fuel line and either a new fuel filter, a different sort of fuel filter, or simply no fuel filter. It could just be that the fuel filter is defective. With a clear fuel line, you might be able to see something that isn't visible yet. With a clear fuel line, you'd be able to see if there is any vapor lock in the hose. Also, it might be prudent to remove the fuel tank and shoot it out and make certain it's clean.
That bug was an "earwig," they're pretty common. They're harmless but they're ugly.
Thanks for the content.
Keep up the good work.
BS'D
agreed and check the fuel switch aswell. apperently not that uncommon they have flawed designs.
the one i had for my boat engine had 3 layers of rubber that had to lineup and after a lil bit of useage the middle rubber moved freely which means the vibrations made it open/close by itself
I thought you only use that kind of fuel filter when motor has a fuel pump.
I agree...take that paper filter out of the equation. I have an older Harley sportster and it had one on it. Caused some fuel delivery issues.
Back in the day fuel lines were all metal.........
Wild guess at the start, possibly the oil pressure sensor. Also, overfilled oil may have gas dilution.
I agree with you :
- with a gravity feedin, the fuel line shouldn't have a high point in the corner and the bottom of the tank should be higher
- the drag of the paper filter may add to the poor gravity when the gas is low
correction :
- shorten the (new ?) line between the carburetor and the red valve could eliminate the high point (1 inch maybe ?)
- find a way to raise the tank a bit
Put 4" of clear fuel line after the filter and watch the fuel flow, but get rid of that filter first. It is definately a fuel problem, not electrical. The outlet of the fuel tank doesn't matter, it is the height of the fuel in the tank which when full is a good 4" or more above the carb. No flow problems with that.
Easy Solution. Give it to James Condon here on youtube He is the King of generators !!!!
Change out that paper fuel filter with a screen type. There isn’t a fuel pump on that engine so that paper filter won’t flow enough fuel. It’s probably right on the boarder to where sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t.
Hi. I v'e got a gen working on that has the same problem . Former owner reckoned it would run for about a hour then stop. They normally start the day with a full tank. I have gone over it checked every thing run it. The only thing I found, it has the fuel tap fitted to the tank with filter inside the tank. While draining to check the filter I removed the filler cap from the tank and the flow greatly increased. This has lead me to one of two things. 1.The filler cap seal spreading over the vent hole. have now made notch in the seal. 2 .The two parts of the filer cap pressing together when cap tighten blocking the vent. I have run for three hours no problems
One of the problems I have seen with this generator is that because the fuel line is at a very low (almost parallel) slope is that if the generator is sitting at an angle the fuel indicator will show inadequate fuel level at about one to one and a half quart. There is more fuel than the indicator shows. It is at an angle thus creating an upward flow for the fuel to travel. Which you know this is not possible. The best thing is to ensure the generator is as level as possible. The generator at an angle of six to ten degrees in either direction can cause low to slow to no gravity feed to the carb. The generator didn’t really act up as you had it at a almost level operation.
So if the tank level shows fuel and it gets moved and is sitting at an angle is most likely the cause. Hope this will shed some light to the problem with this generator you are working on.
Great video. I love these small engine videos you produce. Thank you.
I was thinking the same. The generator was likely out-of-level when the previous owner experienced the problem.
I had a very similar issue with my Piaggio Ape 50, which is like the smallest 3-wheeled van or in my case, pickup (even with a roll bar) with a 50cc 2-stroke engine (though larger models with larger 2-stroke, 4-stroke or even diesel engines also exist), that you've probably ever seen, they're such funny nano "cars". In fact i think you'd get a kick out of one of those, though i would guess they are pretty rare in your part of the world. :)
Anyway, it would also bog down and eventually shut off, and i went through pretty much the same trouble shooting steps as you, and after checking the flow of fuel, i also thought that the flow was decent. At a loss of what to do though, i decided as a last ditch effort to remove the fuel pet, to check the internal filter, even though flow looked fine. After removing and cleaning the pet, and reassembling the whole thing, the engine magically ran fine again and it has been running fine ever since.
So even though the flow at a glance looked to be okay, it just barely wasn't good enough, so the float bowl emptied itself slowly, leading to sputtering and eventually shutoff when fuel was low enough. It would start right back up too, and run fine again for a few minutes, because the bowl was filling again in a few seconds when the engine turned off. It was just on the edge of being good enough, but not quite. :)
Man you don't quit! That was an entertaining and informative video. I think you nailed it with that deficient drop in height, and the gas filter location and drag on the gas flow. After that much time trying to figure something out, I am ready for the dynamite. Good job as usual Mustie1!
Just a thought, but how about raising the tank just a little with some washers or spacers to increase the level of the outlet without rerouting lines. Awesome video as always bud. Also what is the deal with that green beast on the red trailer, you gonna do a video on that ? Keep ‘em coming !!
yeah thats sounds like a good idea even if he can get it a inch higher i reckon that should defo sort his issues out.
i was thinking the same thing some tubing raise it 2 inches see what happens
@@edrosa5079 - I thought the same thing. Use a pipe cutter and insert some joiners and the whole frame goes up an inch or two. I'd also get a different fuel filter. I think those are the ones that VGG hates.
I would do two things to start with. First off, setup a remote fuel tank so you remove the height issue out of it. Then I would disable the oil remote shut off switch.
Two things that can be done within 30 min. or less.
I was just about put the same thing. It seems to be losing a little bit of prime. I would let it sit now for a day. Let it cool off and go for it again because I think it's catching air somewhere. Lift the tank and send it home.
As for the bugs in the tank, my guess is the first owner ran the tank dry to "winterize" it and took off the cap to let the rest evaporate and get rid of the corrosive vapors and then he ended up with a few curious critters in the tank.
Also the previous owner said he ran it without the cap to rule out the cap vent so that's where I was thinking the bugs could have got in.
The bug was an earwig by the way.
It's called an earwig. We never had them in North America 30 years ago but now they are everywhere and they get into everything.
Consider that the original owner probably was using it in warmer weather. The vapor lock John Condon found was during warmer weather. Perhaps it being cold might be part of the issue.
I was wondering why you didn't rig up a temporary tank / fuel line and run it. That would have eliminated the entire fuel delivery system from being the problem.
I had the exact same notion.
This is a learning channel for people who don’t have a clue or not , go thru the steps to find the problem and someone learns something or are not afraid of tearing into it because they watched this man expertly find the problem, hopefully. I am a handy person and he taught me how to remove a vw bug engine in a timely manner and what to look for in the problem department. In my opinion his posts are gold and he never ask for anything in return.
Fuel line was my first idea . . . still watching . . . That's a very small port on the tank.
You could add a couple of washers on the fuel tank to raise it maybe an inch, that’s probably enough to solve the fuel flow issue.
I think it was a combination of the bugs occasionally obstructing the pickup tube then the fuel filter adding to it. When the fuel got down to a gallon it could not compensate for the multiple restrictions. Enjoyed the video.
Excuse my ignorance. But could you just elevate the gas tank with some longer bolts & an extra nut between the tank & frame ? Should give enough lift to alleviate the issue.
if it turns out to be fuel starvation add a vacuum fuel pump to it like the ones on a lot of riding mower engines. cheap and a simple install.
personally, I would test replacing the fuel line, filter, and raising the height of the fuel tank. Maybe consider re-routing the line if possible. Great video. Lots to ponder on this one
Agree, blow out the fuel lines or replace, and get a factory fuel filter. Go from there.
Great videos, try flipping the fuel line around so that the filter is 6" away from the tank, looks like that would level out the line.
James Condon is probably right about vapor lock when the engine is hot and the outdoor temp is also. When you explained about the low drop from the bottom of the tank to the carburettor my first thought was: "Why doesn't it use a fuel pump?"
A permanent fix might be to get a pulse fuel pump and add it to the machine. The last two inches of fuel in the tank would be usable then.
Yea i had the same thought too, when i looked at how compressed its design was i would have thought it had a pump, just because it looks like the bottom of the tank is so close to the float bowl, would be nice to know the model number of that generator and see if theres other consumer reports on rigid generators having this run and die issue, because really it just looks like a design fault.
Hi, Mustie: Great video, as always. I think you nailed it with the diagnosis. The bug you fished out of the tank was an EARWIG. We have lots of them during the summer months here in Pennsylvania. They look really threatening, with their large rear pinchers, but actually, they are just a nuisance. My wife and I squash them......we hate them because they can get into practically anything outdoors. Anyway, I really enjoy your videos - very entertaining and educational. Have a great holiday season.
We got those damn EARWIGS up here in Ontario, Canada as well. They surely are a nuisance.
@@petershane8929 we had a real infestation in mainly one bathroom of our church this summer near Ottawa.
I did see other generators of the same as this one, and some have a paper fuel filters and others don't. But one thing stood out in all of the others is the fuel line location from the fuel tank to the filter. They show the fuel to be located just as you moved it to the proposed location at time 47:22 in your video. So, yes you are right about the high elevated fuel causing an issue. Hope this helps out. Also raising the tank is a great recommended option from other viewers.
I don't think the routing of the fuel line is how it left the factory. My guess is it would have taken a more direct path to the carburetor than the current setup. Without knowing what the previous two owners did it will be difficult to come to an absolute conclusion but I'm thinking the fuel line took a more direct path and there was no fuel filter.
I did a quick search for that model and it's been redone incorrectly by someone before mustie got at it. It's missing a cover and the fuel line is higher than it's supposed to be. It looks like a simple fix and we might not see the unit again on the channel unless it's just an update or something.
one of our plate tampers at work, when the fuel gets low starts to sputter and run rough, eventually dying, but by low i mean an inch or 2 and not completely empty when it dies, I suspect the vibration causes it so suck some air when the fuel is only an inch or two, and that is not the only small engine i've experienced it with, just the most recent. Great vid, great content.
I have this same model and it has been incredibly reliable. I did the fuel line adjustment because it did the same thing, run and shut off. Once I made that adjustment it never shut off again. It takes care of our home whenever we lose power with no issues.
I have this one as well. How did you adjust the fuel line? I usually just loosen the gas cap but would like a better fix?
Maybe worth considering: Some generators (like the ONAN on my RV) will monitor voltage/freq and shut-down if the generator is out of spec for too long. Granted, the ONAN will give out error codes which is helpful.
As I watched, the generator started hunting and that could be a governor issue which is mechanical. The fact that it runs for a bit before doing that probably means the governor needs to be inspected (internally in the engine).
And I'd be willing to guess if the control module has both a voltage input from the generator section and a control lead to the magnetos, when the generator starts hunting like that, the control module sees the voltage/freq fall too far out of spec and shuts down. (if there's no control to the mags other than an off/gnd switch, that scratches that idea)
Just a thought.
can that be fixed easily or is the unit junk
Hunting can also be a fuel issue. Too little fuel flow to fill the carb bowl will make it hunt when the bowl gets low. Definitely wrong fuel filter, wrong fuel line routing and maybe vapor lock on this one.
I think I might try shortening the front feet by 1/2 in or so to lower the fuel line to the carb. Bigger rear tires would have the same effect.