Which is faster for gravel: narrow bars or deep wheels?
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2024
- For bike racing, we know narrow bars are faster than wide ones, and we know taller rim are faster than shallow ones. But which one makes more of a difference at real gravel race speeds? I head into the wind tunnel in Indianapolis with Silca to find out.
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0:00 intro
6:21 context & tools
12:31 tipping point
15:52 results
20:13 double but why
22:10 6 takeaways
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Dylan like a statue frozen in time..
He’s been watching too many Dr.K fixed gaze meditation videos, surely 😅
I was starting to think it was a DJ mannequin! 😂
I wasn't sure either!
Consistency is key in cycling.
When you go faster, time slows down. Dlyan has become SO fast, his HR is now measured in Beats per Month.
The narrow bars are all the rage on the road these days and are more aero in the tunnel, but if you watch people riding them in races, their elbows are way out there.
Better idea is to go 'normal' narrow so your elbows don't chicken wing in the wind.
Also very important is comfort. Yes you can get into a very aero position and have wheels that have less rolling resistance, but it both of those are uncomfortable, it is on sustainable and therefore you will be slow.
100%
Thanks for sharing this, Ben, and thanks to Silca for helping make it happen. It is all quite fascinating, even for me, who typically doesn't care much about numbers and analytics! There is so much to consider, but the highlights to me are: 1) Aero is primarily of concern if folks are going 18 mph or higher. 2) when aero is of concern, bars (and resulting body position) will most likely matter more than wheel height/wheel depth. At Mid South, the elite of the elite are maintaining 23 mph average. Heck, I'll put you right up there with the elites when you can average 20 mph. But obviously the bulk of cyclists cannot maintain that speed, even if they try. So in my mind that means there are other considerations for them (let's just call it the vast group of riders that are riding 16 mph or slower) that take on the real priorities. My guess is that rider comfort becomes the most important factor for that vast group. Comfort results in the ability to maintain focus, stay on the bike for longer segments, less physical and mental strain, etc. All super fun to consider. I can imagine a 'Whats fastest for an elite rider vs what's fastest for a slower rider' test of some sort. Cheers and thanks again for sharing! -Mike
Great vid. While testing a non cycling device at the A2 wind tunnel in NC the technician gave me a freebie bit of aero TT advice. He said from what he's seen, the biggest and easiest aero gain is to simply squeeze your shoulders in as tight as you can. Reduce that frontal area and go faster. Makes perfect sense.
That and turtling your head and neck are quick n easy gains - but good luck holding either for 100 miles! What were you testing in A2?
Aero endurance bikes with tall head tubes and maximum stem spacers come to mind.
Easily the best cycling content online: you nail it with each and every upload Ben 👍🏼
19:38 brilliant 😂
Excellent thanks Ben. The most interesting takeaway for me was that for a ‘normal’ gravel rider, someone who inevitably rides at below the 18mph (29kmh) aero speed / benefit threshold, headwind speed is still a major factor. Add 9mph (15kmh) riding speed to a 9mph headwind and you get to the 18mph aero benefit. …and that is not even a windy day.
Clearly aero is a thing, no matter how fast someone rides. …especially relevant, not in terms of winning anything at least in my case :), is that less wattage expended might also equal more than the sum of the parts. IE: less watts expended into a headwind in the first 2hrs of a gravel event is cumulative in terms of human endurance and power and might result in say, a 3-4hr time for the event, rather than a 5hr blowout! ...The exponential increase in aero benefit at higher speeds, presumably also equates to an exponential saving in energy expended over time at lower speeds into a headwind! …so aero is not just about going fast. For the majority of gravel riders it might also be about surviving the event in reasonable shape = more enjoyment, less pain! Cheers
LAUF for the WIN! Who knew? I got it for the extra bit of suspension and had no idea it would be "more aero" than the standard. Your content and attention to detail are FANTASTIC Ben. Thanks for all you do.
That Lauf fork bit was my favorite as I was considering getting the fixed fork as an alternative on my Lauf Seigla and now I'm blown away (sorry...) by the 5w SAVING of the fork! I will have to pedal harder to get the saving, but it is very surprising. Love my LAUF even more now
Very interesting! One thing that confuses people often: rotating mass. It only matters if you brake. If not, then the extra energy you spent bringing the deeper wheel up to speed stays and you get it back when you slow down (intertia). But if you're braking constantly then don't get deep wheels: MTB. It's why a bike with deep wheels can feel like it's steam rolling through ondulating terrain.
About 7 or 8 years ago, i switched from the super light (at the time), Mavic climbing wheels, to Enve 4.5s. I then went and hammered my favorite downhill, one that I have the KOM on. Surprise, the Enve's were 4+ mph faster! Granted, my top speed was 52 mph. I never looked back. I then swapped bars a couple of years later from 44s (my shoulder width) to 40s. I was a little worried my breathing would suffer, but too my surprise, again, i could actually breathe better, i think, because i could stretch out further. Then i turned my levers inward a bit. This is a major comfort improvement, and if you haven't tried it, you should. It doesn't take a lot, maybe 5 degrees, but in addition to being more comfortable, you can, again, get even lower. All good!
Super insightful. Thanks for sharing this one! 🙌🏻
Great content! Thanks for testing realistic everyday rider equipment choices. Looking forward to the other tests!
These videos just keep getting better and better.
Great video, love to see the improvements in drag #s between bars and wheels and both.
Thank you very much Ben for all your hard work to present this subject in such an insightful manner.
This content is a masterpiece! Thank you Ben ❤
Great video and info. Now the fun begins, how to convince the wife on all the upgrades I need. 😊
Great episode Ben, thanks a lot!
Very interesting and informative Ben. Thank you.
Hell yeah Lauf fork!!! People need to get on board, the bike rocks
It’s good to see normal cda numbers on a UA-cam video. Most of the time they are .17 or insanely low. Good stuff.
Thanks. My idea with this one was to test ‘normal’ options for gravel. So many different ways to go with it.
Great videos lots of good info. Thanks
Excellent video
Great content! Concerning bar width, you touched briefly on it, but i think what shouldn't be missed is the need to fit your bars to your stature rather than chasing a trendy number. Its unsurprising that the trend has backed off the 46cm bars of 5 years ago....simply because very few riders have that wide of shoulders. Most guys are settling somewhere between 38-42cm which is where normal shoulder wodths land. The video of you on the wider bars shows your arms flaired outward to the hoods (thus exposing your inner arm the the wind) vs. straight forearms on the 42s. For me on the other hand, with 44cm wide shoulders, anything narrower that 44 resultss in my elbows pointing outwards (and thus more forearm exposed). 44s or 46s give me the nice straight forearms...and all day comfort to boot.
Keep up the great content!
"What shouldn't be missed is the need to fit your bars to your stature rather than chasing a trendy number." 100%
Awesome Ben! Tks
I always wondered about that Lauf fork, that was really interesting!
Interesting to hear on the Lauf fork. Happy I ride a seigla!
Very informative, thank you
Excellent! Thx you sir!
Great content
Thanks Ben, great content. I am kind of surprised that the deeper section wheels even saved 8 watts with the 42 mm tires, 8 watts is pretty significant!
Excellent video, Ben! I appreciate all of this info, and look forward to more stuff in this vein. DJ is a fat tire pimp, but it seems primarily related to rolling efficiency on rough surfaces. I'm curious about where the tipping point is with increased aero drag due to the larger frontal area.
Thanks. It was cool to be in a tunnel with Dylan and Josh and others to share ideas and head scratching. I know we would all love to have a magic Bill Nye machine that could measure rolling resistance and aero drag and mechanical efficiency simultaneously. Something you could point at a given course and have it tell you the best bike/wheel/tire/pressure. Still, it is fun to pick apart one little piece at a time and then try to figure out what to do with the data.
Loving the look of that Salsa Warbird with those carbon hoops!!
All you have to do is add a little headwind and your effective air speed is easily 18mph or much more. And due to physics, you'll actually almost always spend more time going into the wind than with it. So aero is still technically more important than Crr. But Crr is definitely slowing a lot of people down because they are riding tires that are too narrow.
Good and interesting video!
Very interesting! I appreciate the effort that went into making this one. As for the wheels, it is my understanding that tires that are wider than the outer diameter of the wheel negatively affect the potential aerodynamic advantage.
It certainly can. And for road gear, the tire and rim widths are much closer, right? That's a deep rabbit hole, but the short answer is that you don't know the exact specfiics of a particular tire and wheel combo unless you test it. For gravel, we're seeing more wheels get wider to better support the tires' girth structurally and aerodynamically, but if there is a comprehensive study out there like what BRR does for tires and crr, I sure haven't seen it.
Thanks!
Thanks very much!
Good vid👍🏻
love it!
ALSO hope to see you at Boulder Roubaix tomorrow!
It's great to see this kind of content. It's worth noting that using a different tire might have changed the results. For e.g. the lug pattern is different between the two tires. The tire that tested slower appears to have squared off lugs that protrude past the edge of the tire. The disc rotors (and hubs) were also not the same b/w the setups. Things like inflation level might have also played a role (it wasn't mentioned if they were the same PSI); this could have impacted the profile exposed to the air (a more teardrop shape is likely to be more aerodynamic than a square shape even when they are both ~42mm). It is impossible to say how much, or if, these differences played a role, but we're talking about 8W. It's likely that they did.
All those things have the potential for a measurable difference - particularly if you tested without a rider and at higher speed. Same for the difference in shape of the bars and rims, separate from the width/height dimensions. (Tire pressure was the same, for what that's worth!)
The idea was to just give two specific snapshot examples; I hope I conveyed that.
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney I think you conveyed the goal, but I'm not sure that the nuance there will be appreciated by many viewers. You demonstrated that one setup has a lower CdA than other setup. The soundbite is "deeper rims are faster" :).
We don't know why one setup had a lower CdA than the other, we can speculate that it's because of the rim depth (and if could well be), but it's also possible that some other variable that wasn't held constant (or a sum of variables) actually account for the measured difference.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, and for making the content you do. I love what you're doing here👍.
I hear you. Thanks for the discussion!
Very hard to see a small increase in rim depth making 8w difference at the speed measured, especially when rotational drag isn't measured. Much more likely to be an interaction between tire and rim. Maybe you could try to test this on the road.
@TheRidewithBenDelaney
Slight correction at 18:40.
Drag does not go up with the cube of the speed. Drag goes up with the square of the speed/velocity. It's "power required"' that goes up with the cube of the velocity.
Doh! Thank you. 👍
Great content as always. Thanks for the videos! I've asked before but it would be nice if you gave some of the things you do to keep in "ride shape" as an "older rider". Some of us are creeping up in age! 🙂
Thank you. I do remember your earlier request and I have been planning such a video. Is there a particular event or distance you are thinking of, or just more all-around fitness?
So, I'm good with all around fitness, but I guess, things you do to maintain speed at 100 mile distances as you age. We're more or less the same age. Do you do weight training, how much cardio, yoga, etc? I am 50 years old 154 lbs. I freedive, plenty of yoga, weight train, run 5-10K, and bike about 50miles a week... Any other secret sauce I should be doing? I'm all natural (no Testoserone Replacement Therapy) and I take the normal supplements (multivitamin, Omega 3 fish oil, Turmeric, etc.) I've signed up for the Kershaw Gold Rush in South Carolina in September. It's 83 miles with 6000ft of climbing. Just want to prepare properly. Thanks again.
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney No worries. When ever you get some time. I'm interested what you do to keep speed in 100 mile rides. I am very active. 50 years old, 154 lbs. I freedive quite a bit, yoga, weight training, run 5-10k distances, ride my bike around 40 miles/week between gravel and mountain bike. I'm all natural ( no TRT) and take the basic supplements (multivitamin, omega 3 fish oil, turmeric, etc.) I'm pretty well versed on general training and physiology but I'm not too versed on longer endurance work for older riders. I've been riding bikes for about 1.5 years. Fairly new at it. Just wondering to keep competitive. I'm racing the Kershaw Gold Rush in South Carolina in September (83 miles with 6000ft of elevation). Just interested in what you do since we're almost the same age and you're doing quite well in your races. Thanks for any tips and future videos! Peace.
Hey Ben, Off topic but found the channel looking at your litespeed review. Wondering if you would review the flint, it has similar GEO and would be a good carbon vs ti test. Great content
Dylan Johnson on his new Felt bike!!!
Got to see Dylan crush the field at Hot Springs NC the best part was watching him assend a cracy diffcult climb as i finished the short course
A lot of gravel rides end up into a pretty good headwind at some point. All of the sudden, even us slow folks benefit from aero tweaks. 👌🏻
Thank you for the video! You seem to be the one to ask, what bike should I get, the Lauf Seigla, Cervelo Aspero, or Canyon Grail(all lowest model)?
This is a great video. Awesome content again!
Tom Boonen raced with a Prevail helmet in 2012. Was the Evade not out yet? I always thought he lost some watts and could have won by even more.
The differences were much bigger than I expected given the test speed.
I only got into gravel and road riding a couple of years ago . I've gone from 440 mm to 420 mm and I'm now on 400mm flared bars. These equate to 38cm on the hoods and 45cm on the drops. I'm faster now but thats probably more due to my improved fitness. The 400mm flared bars are certainly more comfortable than 440mm straight bars.
I would like to see someone wear a giant shark fin in a wind tunnel test
what happens if you delete your 2 front teeth? Definitely more aero....
@MrChumps1 more aero or more whistling? 🤷♂️
Regarding the bar width how does comfort and handling affect the equation? 🚴♀️✨✨
22:50 Ben, I was curious when you swapped the stock Grail cockpit for the 40cm width Pro cockpit what you thought of the stability change? The 46cm wide stock bars on my Grail feel way too wide (I'm used to 42 or 44), and if and when the Pro cockpit is available I'd like input on what it feels like. Thx!
i got a new bike. it has a narrower cockpit and its also a little deeper. makes me way more compact on the bike. the difference is truely huge.
I like to ride all surfaces, trail riding on my mountain bike being my favorite. I can say, getting your air pressure wrong is much more noticeable trail riding. For road, I ride 28mm in the middle to upper fifties for my weight of 185lbs. My gravel air pressure on 45mm Ramblers is around 40 as I mostly ride paved, but will go down to the low 30's on chunky gravel. All my bikes are setup tubeless. I do have one question about wind tunnel testing, do they change the wind angle around to see what effect this has on the aerodynamics, like between 90 deg to 0 deg and see how this effects rider time. If you are being blown off a straight line, this will effect your finishing time, as you will travel a longer distance. I believe, all else being the same, wind drag increases by a factor of 4 every time you double the wind speed, definitely not linear.
Cool, Ben, thanks. And you might get even faster with a Skycycle X-2. 😀
Nice t-shirt! VW
The gains from narrower bars are much larger than what the GCN folks saw in the wind tunnel. Makes you wonder.
Did they test on a number of riders and a wide selection of bars, or just one rider like I did? The data will absolutely vary based on the rider and the bar specifics.
Just one rider, their presenter Ollie. I realize it will vary based on the rider, but your savings just seemed like a lot compared to what others have seen in the wind tunnel. Bike Radar did a test as well (one rider) and saw ~2 watts going from 40 cm to 36 cm.
@@fikretatalay I would guess that the 46 is so well outside the flow of the rest of my body that getting back inside that with a 42 was why the difference was so big. If it was already inline, then going narrower… who knows? Would have to test it.
the pack brings up some interesting dynamics, does it test slower that's it job done or tweet the placement or look at a lumbar solution? front load etc? good to have but the comfort of racing goes out the window when you don't have water.
would have been nice to see how much more you could save with a 42mm aero bar... thx for the video
Why not both? May seem simple but both options are going ro be a benefit so why choose?
Ben great video. Wondering when you do MidSouth or Unbound, are you riding mtb shoes/cleats (2 hole) or road shoes/cleats? Or does it depend on the course? Thanks in advance!
I'm almost always on XT pedals and RX8 gravel shoes (2-bolt). I spend a lot of time on foot at events - filming and talking to people and (hopefully not but sometimes) having to walk during the race itself. Here's a video on that topic: ua-cam.com/video/jRMEprtMubs/v-deo.html
I made a few small adjustments to my bike fit and slammed my handlebars… it’s stupid how much of a difference it’s made in my average speed doing long flat solo rides. I’d love to go to 38cm bars from my 41cm
Yo bajé de 42/44 a 38 y la ganancia de velocidad en descenso, solo por inercia, es evidente.
@bendelaney I see there was a photographer. Did anyone check your arm bend angle and torso angle to ensure they were the same when testing different parts? Obviously you're very aware of how it would affect things, you even mentioned it! But still, perception n reality n all that. And it at least LOOKS like you were a bit more upright in the first test.
No, it was just up to the knucklehead sitting on the bike to try to replicate the position as best as possible. I had a few visual checkpoints, but nothing mechanical. One of the many fun wrinkles of tunnel testing.
@@TheRidewithBenDelaneymy problem with the narrow bar movement is that I don't believe the aero claims hold up in the real world. I regularly witness riders on super narrow bars flaring their elbows out at which point I wonder what the point is. Probably 46 to 42 gives some benefit (depending on the riders shoulder width) but beyond that the body will assume the position that's comfortable which means keeping the upper arms in more or less the same place.
Ben asks: “at what speed does total resistance become aero dominated?” First of all it depends on road service and grade.
But more importantly, the first question to ask is: which changes have an aero benefit, but a rolling resistance (or other) penalty?”
After all, if you find a change that has an aero benefit but no penalty anywhere, like a faster jersey, there is no question, you just use it.
A point not noted in your video is that rolling resistance of the whole system (bike + rider) is greatly impacted by tire pressure. On a smooth surface, rolling resistance decreases with increased tire pressure. However, on rough and bumpy gravel surfaces, rolling resistance increases with higher tire pressures due to vibrations transferring up from the road surface that are absorbed by your body. I use the Silca tire pressure calculator to determine the optimum tire pressure for my rides and races.
Wait what? @3:00 "the lauf fork is 5W faster"? The true grit suspension fork?!
Yup. That is what we all said!
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney wait until Lauf finds out... Marketing that fact in 3....2.....1.....
Lauf customer here, quite happy 🙂
46 to 42 will help much more than going from 42 to 38. keep that in mind for roadies.
Being longer underway on a certain course with low speed still makes lower aero drag substancial.
Quite revealing, about bar width!
How many watts do you save by having an exceptionally beautiful garage?
All of them. I have a whole drawer just full of saved watts.
In skydiving, the difference in a relaxed body compared to a stiff body makes an extreme difference in how a body will fly. Granted cycling is at much lower speeds but I can't help but think about how a stiff body on a bike in the tunnel differs from a relaxed one.
I had never thought about skydiving like that, but that makes sense. Another big factor not measured here - pedaling! Which of course is what you are doing outside. But that introduces so much noise it is typically kept out of the tunnel. Some brands have pedaling mannequins though, to replicate that motion - but by definition that isn’t measuring a malleable human body.
Hey hope you can help me, i'm on a giant contend 3, rim brake claris grupo, and want to retire that bike for the strava set up, and buy a new bike. Now, the question. For a 5k€ budget, what bike should i get? i'm thinking of a bike like the new rose backroad ff with rival and one pair of wheels for road and gravel, or, a winspace agile or the new Van Rysel rcr, with a higher spec grupo and wheels. What is your opinion, what bike should i go for?
Get one with the widest tire space you can find. Lauf Sigla holds up to a 57mm tire. The Felt Dylon is on is nearly the same.
i don't think that i need that much clerance, there aren't many gravel roads around me, it's something that i want to have, but it isn't a must. I want a more of do it all bike. But, thanks for the feedback@@ZenEndurance
This one always seems weird to me. Im 6'3" and not small, and I run 46s (Cowbell). Anything narrower may or may not be more aero, but I find I can't breathe right with narrower bars, so any potential aero impacts are wiped out by the inability to breathe and keep putting out power.
And that is something that a wind tunnel can’t measure but it obviously quite important! I have seen a number of pros leave a wind tunnel with an aggressive position and then revert later based on feeling, be that ergonomics or handling.
I have found that going to narrower bars requires an adjustment period, and time to learn how to be able to breath in the narrower position. 20 watts is a huge savings if one can learn to be comfortable, but it does take effort to do so, just as holding a flat back position takes training. For gravel racing, closing gaps solo, and taking turns pulling in a group are where the aero gains really matter, so, hopefully I only have to hold that ideal aero position for shorter periods of time.
@@TheRidewithBenDelaney Watching road pros on TV, the narrower the bar the more they flare their elbows. Sure, in a wind tunnel riders can keep a 90* bend of their elbows and keep them inline, but in the real world that's a very hard position to maintain. Gravel is even worse -- riders seem to forget they have drops on their bars even on the flats.
thank you for the excellent content! Helps me unwind after a hard day at work to think about bicycles and how I can improve when I do get to ride. Also thanks for the Silca discount code. I used it to buy the chain waxing system and wow, it makes everything super easy. I just took my chain off, degreased it a bit, then hit it with boiling water to get the old wax and dirt off and then put it into the melted wax. When it came out, the chain was perfectly waxed. Smooth coat of wax over the whole chain without clumps or lumps anywhere. This makes it so easy. I was topping off with the Silca drip wax but I may just go to more frequent hot waxes.
How do you make sure your upper body is in the exact same position for each test?
Does speed of wind have effect. Say your going 15 mph into a 10 mph headwind are you effectively needing aero for 25 mphs then?
100% (presuming that it is a dead-on headwind)
Take away number 4 all day......seems it's always windy lately, at least where I live....
I’d love to see the aerodynamic difference of the same person at different body weights. As a friend of mine said “fat is not aero”.
I wonder if narrower bars not only mean more aerodynamic but also more power.
Great video, are new gravelkings working for you?
It’s funny, the first “miles” I put on them were there in the tunnel, “riding” the rollers in a static position. And there was a huge difference in feel with those at 40psi with the thick Cannonballs at 40. Just less jarring vibration. I have not been a big fan of past GravelKings but perhaps I will like this new one, which has a new carcass as well as just the new tread pattern.
Handlebar width should match your suit jacket size.
there becomes a limit to aerodynamic benefit on micro sized handlebars versus handling as well…… average joe rocking out on 30cm bars better have some serious handling skills. 😊
Why do they spin the wheels but not spin the legs?
The wheels to measure the drag caused by the spinning spokes. The legs would be great to measure while pedaling - that is what we do, right? - but the scale in that tunnel is sensitive to motion so they have found they get better readings when the riders stay still.
Someone needs to test number plate positions. I want to know if it’s worth it to make race promoters mad by bending it around the head tube or whatever spot seems faster.
There are tests available for this. Can’t remember where, but I’ve seen them.
From the footage, it looks like you weren’t testing with your eyes down the road. I hope you did actually test with your eyes up
Good eyes! I did look ahead. I used a bar ahead in the tunnel as a mark, with my eyes up but my neck mostly straight. Not sure how closely that matches my position outside, but I think it is pretty close. And I felt that was more repeatable than a level head. 🤷♂️ Mant big brands use a mannequin because people move and can easily create more noise than the small variables that are sometimes being tested.
Ben you're so tall are you sure your head wasn't above the wind channel? LOL
So, like… AERO IS EVERYTHING ?
23 mph on gravel while I’m legitimately proud if I can average 18 on the road.
Bloke in the background 😂
Is dylan really testing 19cm bars!? Looks like a meme lol
Km/h
ben please leave the quotes up a little longer, i'm only halfway done reading before the text disappears
Good feedback, thanks.
I just pauze all the time 😊
Just witnessed a VNR, a very nice (wind tunnel) run
I love this "marginal gains" content!
Love your work, but 'taller wheels' is an out-of-character odd way to put it
both🙄
What about a CamelFRONT? Will gravel racers start wearing those "trout-head" helmets too? Gravel started out being the anti establishment thing...only to follow the rest of the sport down the "You are what you ride." and "Speed costs money. How fast can you afford to go?" rabbit hole. Same s__t, different day.
Kinda like your comments! 😅