Jon my son Casey really enjoyed being able to go with you on this one. He called me and sent pictures, but I thoroughly enjoyed watching your video. New Subscriber. Thanks, very informative.
Casey played a big part in this trip. He procured our campsite so we had somewhere to rest up after our long 9 hour drive in. I told him I would pay him in beer, but I don't think he took enough. I'm very grateful for everything that he did.
It was such an awesome trip! It was a lot to take in, the beauty of Colorado, meeting up with a UA-camr from the other side of the country, meeting up with a guy that makes skid plates. It was such a good time! I love how I'm able to fully appreciate the trip by reliving the trip as I edit these videos.
@@eyeye_agent Once I dialed in preload and the rebound they did great. They do great at low speeds and make a little "squishing/pining" noise hitting potholes at high speeds. I will try to get a review up in the next few weeks.
I'm a function over form kinda guy, and Boxiness to me means storage space. When I look at the rounded the edges of my Honda, I just imagine how much more space the interior would have. I'm not complaining, I believe the Passport is class leading at 100 cu ft of cargo, but I wouldn't mind 140 cu ft!
Agreed, and I have also owned a scion xb for the same reason (I called it "the toaster"), and am one of the odd ducks that like the Ford flex's style. I wish the Gen 2 ridgeline had retained some of the Gen 1 style in the front, but axing the sail pillars was a good move.
Trip of the year! I love seeing you guys realistically tackle these trails and discuss the strengths and weaknesses of doing a route like this in crossovers and more light duty SUVs/trucks. What a blast, looking forward to the rest of the series and the videos by Borderline Explorer and the others. Thanks for sharing!
GrizzlyPath, I think you're right! This trip will be hard to beat! I'm glad I controlled myself from releasing the full episode right away because @borderlineexplorer, @american intake,llc, and @no-lo Designs have some awesome footage they shared. All this extra footage just helps me tell our story that much better!
I always talked about gearing, but I've never actually seen it make that much of a difference. It was cool to see (at @hondapilotoverland 's expense, Thanks! Aaron!)
I was thinking “man… I hope Aaron doesn’t mind that I’m showing his vehicle bog down.” But at the same time, you know what I’m all about, showing the truth and that will benefit the overlanding community. You’re an honest guy as well, and much respect for that 🤜🤛, **some** other youtubers just like to fo the “highlight reel” thing. The last thing I’d want to have happen is have a vehicle that doesn’t have the gearing get into a perilous situation and block a trail.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I agree Jon...part of my channel is about testing the limits of first gen Pilots. They aren't perfect but there is a lot of bang for your buck for $5k ...they are really well suited for carrying a family. They are pretty capable for what they are.
I had a 2004 Honda Pilot EX-L AWD and I didn't realize that its craw ratio was so much worst than my 2020 Passport Elite AWD. Thanks again for another great video.
It's really standard. Even today, crawl ratio's are around 11:1 to 14:1. Another way to look at it is your 2020 Passport has exceptional gearing for a single speed AWD vehicle. That's one of the reasons I bought mine :P
@@JonDZ_Adventuring What are the differences in crawl ratios between the Pilot, Passport and Ridgeline? As well as suspension setups and various clearances? Is there a video or resource where you compare these three sibling vehicles? If not, I think it would make for a great video for those like myself considering which of the three is best for which needs/scenarios to start with…as well as what upgrades would yield the best cost to results for overlanding/off-roading. Thanks! Love the content and am looking forward to learning more from your and others’ experiences.
@@OptimizedSelfNinja good idea! I should make a Video about all this. The Passports all have the ZF9 with taller rear struts. The lower trim Pilots have the 6 speed, the upper trims have the 9 Speed. The 2017-2019 Ridgelines have the 6 speed, the 2020+ have the 9 speed.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Thanks! I'm leaning more towards the Passport or Ridgeline. I'm curious to learn more about how their suspension setups differ and how the longer length of the Ridgeline affects approach and departure angles compared to a Passport, both before and after either is lifted. I also am looking forward to hearing you talk more about rooftop tents, both in terms of which are good, but also how size, weight and placement affect MPG. Like an iKamper or Roof Nest on top of a Passport versus one mounted on a mid-cab height bed rack on a Ridgeline that sits inline with or just slightly above the roof of the cab. So many possibilities and so many adventures to go on! :-)
I did Medano Pass in my Crosstrek along with 2 friends in mostly stock Outbacks... super fun trail & easily the hardest offroading us Texas have ever accomplished. Would love to try Imogene next time!
That was a good trail! Because of the rain, the sand was packed in and it made it very very easy. Honestly, I wish we could have played around in the sand. I did research on the trail before time, and I saw a notice about AWD not being allowed? This is a direct quote from the NPS website: www.nps.gov/grsa/planyourvisit/medano-pass-road.htm "4-Wheel Drive (4WD) vehicles are required on this road. All-Wheel-Drive (AWD) vehicles, mini-SUVs, wagons, and similar vehicles with lower clearance will get stuck in the deep sand or creek crossings." hehe, did we get lucky?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring the sandy portion near the dunes was a ton of fun. We started from the park heading East... We were warned by multiple staff not to proceed unless we knew the risks. If we had bad weather it would have been a very different day...
@@andrewandjelic Wow! Thanks for sharing! Before I went on this trip I watched the youtube channel by Adventurous Way ua-cam.com/video/1x03cq9juLU/v-deo.html I was definitely worried, but the trail ended up being much more different than I could have imagined. I guess we just got really good weather. The water crossings weren't too deep either. Trail conditions can change so drastically, not only from weather but also from just trail traffic. My guess is that because of the recent storms any ruts were probably filled in and that allowed us to get by easy.
Thanks Sam! I'm looking forward to Leavitt Lake, but at the same time I feel super guilty I'll be going to the Lost Coast just days after. If we make sure we do a hike or something and say it's for exercise and my well being, I could probably convince the Wife!
But, you can't leave pavement with a vehicle that isn't body on frame, lifted, on 44s, with lockers, and a driver with a small endowment! Or so says my buddy who needed me to pull his ranger out with my 2017 rtl-t honda.
@@Moab12 those Jeeps made all the difference. If it wasn’t for them, I’m not sure if we would have all **summited** to be honest. When I get around to making the video about Imogene Pass, I’ll make sure to include that. It’s so important to me to be transparent and accurate about what happened.
Great video. I miss my 04 pilot. But she had frame rust. She was laid to rest. But before her passing she requested we get a 2020 4 runner in her place.
Thanks NK! I didn't find this trail to be terrible technical, ground clearance is a good thing, but the main challenge are the steep climbs. Some of the technical obstacles are on the steep climbs which adds to the difficulty, that's why gearing is so important on a trail like this.
Hope you guys had a good time, it was cool meeting you at Poser Rock on Imogene. We were in that green diesel rubicon. Ended up in Moab after like we said. Ran Fins N Things, Hell's Revenge, Elephant Hill, Steel Bender, and Top of the World. Absolutely amazing and can't wait to go back. You were right, Jeeps can pretty much just take whatever line we want. However that doesn't mean it feels great while you are in the thing! 🤣 Did you by chance get footage of BorderlineExplorer spotting me out on to Poser Rock?
Hey! It was nice to meet you too! I'm sure we have footage somewhere. Do you have instagram so we can make this conversation a bit more private? That way we can share email addresses and such, and I could send you the footage. Also, I'll need to give you a shout out when I get around to making the imogene video.
Nice to see. And for perspective... I believe in 2wd and 1st gear, ordinary cars typically have a 10:1 ratio. My 2wd 3rd gen Tacoma has just over 15:1 and is reasonable for softroading applications. 4.88 gears would only boost me to 18:1. I'm pretty happy stock gears/wheel size, tho. "Proper" 4wd low range starts around around, say, 30:1 My big upgrade will be All Terrains and a soft topper.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring No, instead, Toyota gave me an insane 2nd Overdrive gear (6th)! I would rather have had an option for an extra low 1st gear (like 30:1, maybe). I have run into several short stretches in the desert, that I would have liked the option to crawl for a hundred yards thru in extra low. Last 300 yards of the dirt road to Telescope Peak, lookin at U :)
Hi John, keep these videos coming! I wanted to understand the crawl ratio. Is that based on 1st gear? Because if it is, the ZF 9-speed is programed to 'soft' accelerate in 2nd gear. For a 'hard' acceleration, it will take off in 1st gear .... unless you activate SPORT mode. I am wondering if at 16:21 of this video, the Ridgeline would be in SPORT mode, that may have made the climb even easier???? IDK.
Nice! Colorado is on my bucket list. Curious on how the Pilots and Ridgeline performed on Imogene Pass. Wanting to figure out If the limits on my crossover will be surpassed and just want until I'm able to upgrade my vehicle :/
We got up fairly easy. We had to stop for the Gen 1 pilots to let their transmissions cool down, which let our transmissions take a break, but we both went no higher than 215F. We both got up unassisted, the Gen 1 pilots were towed up the last mile or so. The peak on the Ouray side gets steep.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring cool, thanks for the info. Best to take advantage of all the sights to let the transmission cool down then huh? So 4wd/awd is a must for imogene right? I'm in denial that my fwd Rav can tackle it and peaking its impressive limits lol.
@@MC4D. to be honest. Only a few AWDs would make it. For example, Subarus have tried in the past, but have been unsuccessful. I think the new Outback wilderness has a chance of summit one, I’m just not 100% sure. One of the biggest challenges of imogene is the two way traffic. Since the trail is heavily trafficked, there’s a high chance you might have to back up 1/4” on a deadly shelf road, just to let the other vehicles pass. I’ve yet to release the videos about my Colorado trip. I’ll go over ways to avoid traffic jams.
Heck yeah! It sure is! I mounted mine in my cargo carrier. I just bolted it down so it's always there and always ready. The alligator clips reach under the hood and to the battery terminal perfectly. I love the Smittybilt 5.65 CFM air compressor. the 35 foot hose is awesome, it'll reach two car lengths.
Yes, the higher the crawl ratio the better a vehicle will climb and crawl. Currently the highest crawl ratio in a "single speed transfer case" AWD vehicle is currently 21.9:1 in the 2022 Acura MDX. Actually the 2019+ trailhawk renegade/compass have improved differential gearing and they're now geared 21.6:1. Not sure of other countries, Volkswagen has an AWD Truck that's suppose to have impressive single speed gearing.
@@mickjlv5836 first gear is 4.71, axle ratio is 3.73 just need to multiply the transfer case. You’re Disco definitely has a low gear transfer case. www.thecarconnection.com/specifications/land-rover_discovery_2020 Going to do some more searching. In 4 high, your crawl is 17.6:1
Kinda! The Outback wilderness is geared the same as the Subaru Ascent, which is 14.3:1. Not too far off from how your Outback XT is geared, which is 13.3:1
Cool video! I like how it shows AWD ~vs~ 4WD. Curious whether or not if my '07 Ram 2500 would have any problems out there. I live in S.E. Virginia near the beach and thought about taking a drive out there. Engine power and torque shouldn't be an issue as much as my wheel base. I have 34" BFG KO2's on my truck. It does easily on the sandy beaches in OBX, but that looks like a lot of fun. I have no idea what my crawl ratio is, but I'm guessing it to be at least comparable to the Jeep. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
You would have no issues on the trails out here, but on imogene pass, the trails are so narrow that running into oncoming traffic will be a big issue. There’s sections on the Telluride side with blind turns (hard to see ahead) where you’ll go 1/4 mile without a place to pull over. When we did Imogene, I scouted ahead. As I passed spots for our convoy to pull over, I’d radio in “we have 3 spots, 2 of you make your way up”. I’d recommend doing imogene during the middle of the week (as opposed to the busy weekend). The ideal situation is you have someone on a dirt bike to scout ahead. Someone also had a good idea of using a drone to scout the blind turns. Oncoming traffic is the reason the trail could be a nightmare. Luckily I came across 1 truck head on. I saw it I. The distance, so I raced towards him. I got to him just in time. instagram.com/p/CRUN4LZA2gV/?
Great video John! Now I'm not so sure about an overlanding trip I was planning for next year in an 04 honda crv after seeing the pilot ... was planning to hit easy colorado trails a few days and then heading to Utah and Arizona . Plan on camping all the way through the 3 week trip. I cannot find the crappy crawl ratio for my crv anywhere? Any advice?
An 2004 CRV has a crawl ratio of 11.9:1, but you have 160 hp / 162 tq. Don’t worry, there’s plenty to see in Colorado, you can drive up the Ouray ride and it’s just a simple dirt road until about half way up. Many people will drive up towards Yankee Boy Basin, in fact we saw a 2nd Gen CRV driving up there.
Cool video, but it's spelled Medano pass, & it's actually quite a bit harder to go west to east over it, your doing the first part of it climbing hills in that sand, makes it a little more technical
Thanks, someone pointed out the spelling error already. Going east to west I’m showing a 1800 ft. Climb over 9 miles. Going East to West it’s a 500 ft. Climb in 3/4 mile. Unfortunately, we didn’t have any soft sand when we did Medano pass. There was a light storm a day before we hit this trail and the sand was hard packed.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring if that sand dries out, definitely more of a challenge, I have a 2004 jeep TJ struggled a bit, but I didn't air down, your AWD, would have had some issues, like I said, cool vid, thanks for responding
@@Mountainghost72 thanks for the comments and giving me valuable feedback. When I eventually make the video for Medano Pass I’d like it to be as accurate as possible. I really appreciate comments like these. After coming down from the chunky water crossing portion of the trail, It was hard for me to tell the sandy part was downhill (from East to West). I’ve driven 8 miles up steep grades in a snow drift, wasn’t fun. 12 inches of minimum clearance and a twin clutch rear differential was the only reason I got through. Much of it was 14 inches of center track (so something with lots of clearance plowed through, but I was still scraping on 2 inches between the tracks. When it comes to this soft stuff, it’s so important to avoid high centering. Here a link to my ordeal. It’ll give you a good idea of how some of these newer AWD systems perform. The Midsized Hondas are similar to a Bronco Sport Badlands, we just have better gearing. ua-cam.com/video/G5qHx0DAPGM/v-deo.html
I don't doubt it! Renegades have the exact same ZF9 transmission as the current midsized Hondas. Just shows how much gearing makes a difference! I researched Fins N Things in Moab and saw that the only AWD vehicles that completed the trail were renegrade trailhawks. IMO, Fins N things is much more demanding than Imogene Pass, even though the Jeep badge of honor app rates Fins as a 3-4 and Imogene as a 4-6.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Which is interesting because Jeep says the Renegade TH gets a 21:1 1st gear ratio...so I'd be interested to know if Jeep marketing is rounding up, or if the 1st gear is slightly different vs. Honda's 20:1 1st gear...ultimately doesn't matter to me, but is that marketing at work, or are they slightly different?
@@luchaDor oh! There must have been a recent change. The differentials went from 4.33 to 4.58. The new crawl ratio is actually 21.6:1. They can technically round up to 22:1 if their marketing so pleased. Looks like the change happened in 2019. Car and driver must of had older info back when I did my research. Hmmm, I’d love to get my passport regeared. I wouldn’t want just 21.6:1 though, I’d like to get it at around 25:1. Because I run 2.5” taller tires, I’d be at 22.9:1, which would be perfect!
Very very simple math! You just take the vehicles first gear and multiply it by the final drive ratio (axle ratio). If the vehicle has a low gear transfer case (or cases), multiply that in too! So for example, a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon has a 1st gear of 5.13:1 and a final drive of 4.10:1. Multiple that and it's 21:1. That's just in 2WD of 4WD high! Now, once the 4.0:1 Low gear transfer case is engaged, multiple that in too and you have an astounding 84:1 crawl ratio. It's really simple for my Passport, first gear is 4.71 and final drive is 4.33, multiply it all together and it's 20.4:1
@@JonDZ_Adventuring ok that’s what I thought! I appreciate the example, so that means that my 2021 Sorento S AWD is a 18.3:1, so not the worst on the list of AWDs at least!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring that’s crazy to think I love the bronco sport too, but we needed a little bigger for our family, I am enjoying it so far, you inspired me to try and do all these fun adventures, I’ll be recording what I can, thank you very much!
I had the opportunity, but since my Wife was with me, I just couldn’t bring myself to attempt the USA’s most notorious trail. My AWD colleague @bruceyyyyy did it in his Subaru Outback. It’s all downhill so having the experience to know how to avoid locking up the brakes will help. There’s a technique to it. AWDs will have a lower center of gravity. 4WDs have more wheel articulation and low range to engine brake down. it’s less about off-road capability, and more about careful line choice.
Many AWD vehicles don’t have the gearing to get through this trail, but a 2022 Ford Escape does. Next up, it would need enough ground clearance. I’d recommend about 10 inches. Going up the Telluride is supposed to be easier, we went up the Ouray side.
The main challenge with this trail will be the high elevations and prolonged climbs. I would not recommend this trail in a vehicle that doesn’t have the gearing for it. The Sequoia should do it easily. But keep in mind that the main danger of this trail is that there’s many spots on the telluride side that don’t have any space to pass. You’ll come across areas where you would have to back up 1/4 mile just to pull over. Try to go on a non busy day.
Probably just regular. Axles didn’t get crossed up, so no wheel slip. We both have the Traxda 3.5” lift kit, both have 32.1” tires and we both deleted our rear sway bars. With the bigger tires crawl ratio goes from 20.4:1 to 18.7:1, but still enough to not bog down on an obstacle like that.
if youre doing hardcore stuff why not just get a proper 4WD? i mean with mods you got on your passport would it handle similar to a stock or slightly mod 4wd?
I have about 5 videos about why I no longer drive a 4WD. I use to drive a FJ cruiser. You have to think about all the driving that has to be done between destinations. I had to drive 900 miles to get to Colorado. Did I need a 4WD to get to the peak of imogene pass? No. Did my Passport struggle getting to the top? No. My Passport is also my favorite daily driver. Great mix of performance, onroad handling, comfort, luxury. Not sure if you’re aware, but the Passport does 0-60 in 5.8 seconds stock, and gets up to 27-29 mpg highway. With my mods now I’m getting 21-23 highway at 70 mph. Btw, the trails in this video are by no means “hardcore”. What are you driving?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I have an evo for going fast fj for driving in the sandbox and element for everyday lol I've taken my fj to moab don't have the balls or experience nor 4x4 friends yet to try the more technical bits but I'm trying to learn how to read the road everytime I go out and tbh fj wasn't too bad driving all the way to moab from so cal
LOL! There was crappy weather though! He used his Honda Pilot to block the wind, his tent survived. HOWEVER, Casey @mike_honchos_honda has this giant roof top tent. The wind was so fierce that it blew up the bottom part off the RTT and made a "TACO" out of it while he was still in it. HAahahahahahah, sorry! I know it's not funny, but it kinda is. Poor dude had to climb down and sleep in his vehicle until the winds died down. WAIT... you have cell reception on the PCT?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring in town with a fucked up foot. My pack weighs 8 lbs but I sent it a little too hard & now I have a walking issue lol. Both of those dudes need better shelter. Rooftop tent is also probably best for koa camping. I feel like the 4x4 & overlanding crowd always pick bad tentsites that have too much wind, just for the pics. I always try to camp in the low country at night. Trees make a huge difference with the wind & rain. I know it’s hard to avoid wind that high up above tree line but you could’ve probably picked a better site or planned your timing better tbh 🤷♂️ I feel like once you have a solid 1000+ nights camping, you start being really anal about campsite selection 🤣
Wait until you see my Pop up tents full "bad weather" setup. I have a 20x30 tarp that covers the whole tent. On the windy night I was able to set rock on all 14 of the guy lines that hold the tarp taught.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring thx John! Maybe join you guys some day!?. I've done offloading in American west on mcycles in past. Time to try suv or 4x4.....but for now, living vicariously through your channel and others you've recommended.
I actually tried to buy a Tacoma, but I’m just too big for one. Toyota should have made the cabin taller and should replace the Corolla like seating position with a real truck seating position. 4 runner is just too old for me. It’s like the 2008 FJ cruiser I use to drive. Til today, there still isn’t a vehicle that’s just right for me. All Midsized Trucks are too small, except for the Ridgeline, but if I’m buying a truck, I’d want it with a 50:1+ crawl ratio and front and rear lockers. Maybe I just need to move onto a Ford F-150. The Bronco is promising, but I don’t want a turbo.
Is this overlanding or car camping? Overlanding is just a # for marketing ( tryingto sell you a bunch of overpriced crap you don't need). It is definitely just car camping, I've been doing it ever since I can remember and we just called it car camping.
Haha! I made a video that agrees with what you said. Early on, marketing companies tried to create this “elite” image of overlanding. Many people still believe you need expensive gear and even more importantly a high tier 4WD that’s triple locked and cost $65K. Many of us found out that we don’t need all the gear that’s on an Xpedition Overland episode.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I mean if you have money to blow then go for it but the term overlanding is literally a term for marketing purpose to sell you a bunch of crap you don't really need. The easiest way is to start with essentials (what you already have) and make it work and buy stuff as you need or want. I personally have been doing this all my life and I know I want a proper 4x4 but in all honesty people don't really even need it most of the time, they just wanna look cool. Most trails even have an easy side where you can do it in a freaking crv
Jon my son Casey really enjoyed being able to go with you on this one. He called me and sent pictures, but I thoroughly enjoyed watching your video. New Subscriber. Thanks, very informative.
Casey played a big part in this trip. He procured our campsite so we had somewhere to rest up after our long 9 hour drive in. I told him I would pay him in beer, but I don't think he took enough. I'm very grateful for everything that he did.
This turned out great! So nostalgic! 😁
It was such an awesome trip! It was a lot to take in, the beauty of Colorado, meeting up with a UA-camr from the other side of the country, meeting up with a guy that makes skid plates. It was such a good time! I love how I'm able to fully appreciate the trip by reliving the trip as I edit these videos.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I agree, it is a lot of work to document and film our adventures, but in the end it is worth the effort! Keep up the great work!
@HondaPilotOverland any reviews on those FlatOut Suspension?
@@eyeye_agent Once I dialed in preload and the rebound they did great. They do great at low speeds and make a little "squishing/pining" noise hitting potholes at high speeds. I will try to get a review up in the next few weeks.
I would say you guys are overlanding. Another well put video.
Nice overview Jon! Can't wait for the feature. Cracks me up the hand-drone got lots of use this trip.
#handdrone :)
btw, I need some of your real drone footage for these upcoming trail videos :P
@@JonDZ_Adventuring we also needa exchange SD card and the Midland. Footage is all organized and processed. Ready for transfer.
I love the way the old pilot looks. The boxiness is so nice. I mean - I like my passport too- but mo’ boxy mo’ better.
I'm a function over form kinda guy, and Boxiness to me means storage space. When I look at the rounded the edges of my Honda, I just imagine how much more space the interior would have. I'm not complaining, I believe the Passport is class leading at 100 cu ft of cargo, but I wouldn't mind 140 cu ft!
Agreed, and I have also owned a scion xb for the same reason (I called it "the toaster"), and am one of the odd ducks that like the Ford flex's style. I wish the Gen 2 ridgeline had retained some of the Gen 1 style in the front, but axing the sail pillars was a good move.
@@jg8263 I always liked the way the flex looked as well.
I love your videos! I just bought a used 2019 Honda Passport Touring and I'm loving it so far!
Congrats!
Trip of the year! I love seeing you guys realistically tackle these trails and discuss the strengths and weaknesses of doing a route like this in crossovers and more light duty SUVs/trucks. What a blast, looking forward to the rest of the series and the videos by Borderline Explorer and the others. Thanks for sharing!
GrizzlyPath, I think you're right! This trip will be hard to beat! I'm glad I controlled myself from releasing the full episode right away because @borderlineexplorer, @american intake,llc, and @no-lo Designs have some awesome footage they shared. All this extra footage just helps me tell our story that much better!
I love these vids man. I can watch em all day.
Thanks Thomas! I wish I could make them all day long, I'm really behind on my content. haha!
Thank you for sharing looks fun and beautiful scenery 🤘🏻
Man this is on my bucket list, such amazing views
It’s worth it. If I could do this trip over again, I’d spend more time on Imogene pass. Lots to explore out there.
15:30 I feel that so much. That was some of my experience in Colorado. The engine and lack of good gearing just leaves it dead in the water.
I always talked about gearing, but I've never actually seen it make that much of a difference. It was cool to see (at @hondapilotoverland 's expense, Thanks! Aaron!)
@@JonDZ_Adventuring lol, your welcome 😂
I was thinking “man… I hope Aaron doesn’t mind that I’m showing his vehicle bog down.” But at the same time, you know what I’m all about, showing the truth and that will benefit the overlanding community. You’re an honest guy as well, and much respect for that 🤜🤛, **some** other youtubers just like to fo the “highlight reel” thing. The last thing I’d want to have happen is have a vehicle that doesn’t have the gearing get into a perilous situation and block a trail.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I agree Jon...part of my channel is about testing the limits of first gen Pilots. They aren't perfect but there is a lot of bang for your buck for $5k ...they are really well suited for carrying a family. They are pretty capable for what they are.
Can’t wait for the vids of the rest of the trip. Gotta somehow tag along with you & the Borderline guys one day. Stay safe
I just want to edit the imogene video now, but I have some other videos to finish up. I need to start pumping out my content!
Great adventure, Jon!
Thanks Carl! This was a trip to remember!
I had a 2004 Honda Pilot EX-L AWD and I didn't realize that its craw ratio was so much worst than my 2020 Passport Elite AWD. Thanks again for another great video.
It's really standard. Even today, crawl ratio's are around 11:1 to 14:1. Another way to look at it is your 2020 Passport has exceptional gearing for a single speed AWD vehicle. That's one of the reasons I bought mine :P
@@JonDZ_Adventuring What are the differences in crawl ratios between the Pilot, Passport and Ridgeline? As well as suspension setups and various clearances? Is there a video or resource where you compare these three sibling vehicles? If not, I think it would make for a great video for those like myself considering which of the three is best for which needs/scenarios to start with…as well as what upgrades would yield the best cost to results for overlanding/off-roading. Thanks! Love the content and am looking forward to learning more from your and others’ experiences.
@@OptimizedSelfNinja good idea! I should make a
Video about all this. The Passports all have the ZF9 with taller rear struts. The lower trim Pilots have the 6 speed, the upper trims have the 9
Speed. The 2017-2019 Ridgelines have the 6 speed, the 2020+ have the 9 speed.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Thanks! I'm leaning more towards the Passport or Ridgeline. I'm curious to learn more about how their suspension setups differ and how the longer length of the Ridgeline affects approach and departure angles compared to a Passport, both before and after either is lifted.
I also am looking forward to hearing you talk more about rooftop tents, both in terms of which are good, but also how size, weight and placement affect MPG. Like an iKamper or Roof Nest on top of a Passport versus one mounted on a mid-cab height bed rack on a Ridgeline that sits inline with or just slightly above the roof of the cab.
So many possibilities and so many adventures to go on! :-)
*crawl. *worse
Does your phone really not have spell check??
Great demonstration at the end. Thank you. Convinced me I want a Jeep :-)
I did Medano Pass in my Crosstrek along with 2 friends in mostly stock Outbacks... super fun trail & easily the hardest offroading us Texas have ever accomplished. Would love to try Imogene next time!
That was a good trail! Because of the rain, the sand was packed in and it made it very very easy. Honestly, I wish we could have played around in the sand. I did research on the trail before time, and I saw a notice about AWD not being allowed?
This is a direct quote from the NPS website: www.nps.gov/grsa/planyourvisit/medano-pass-road.htm
"4-Wheel Drive (4WD) vehicles are required on this road. All-Wheel-Drive (AWD) vehicles, mini-SUVs, wagons, and similar vehicles with lower clearance will get stuck in the deep sand or creek crossings."
hehe, did we get lucky?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring the sandy portion near the dunes was a ton of fun. We started from the park heading East... We were warned by multiple staff not to proceed unless we knew the risks. If we had bad weather it would have been a very different day...
@@andrewandjelic Wow! Thanks for sharing! Before I went on this trip I watched the youtube channel by Adventurous Way ua-cam.com/video/1x03cq9juLU/v-deo.html
I was definitely worried, but the trail ended up being much more different than I could have imagined. I guess we just got really good weather. The water crossings weren't too deep either.
Trail conditions can change so drastically, not only from weather but also from just trail traffic. My guess is that because of the recent storms any ruts were probably filled in and that allowed us to get by easy.
Great video Jon !
Thanks Sam! I'm looking forward to Leavitt Lake, but at the same time I feel super guilty I'll be going to the Lost Coast just days after. If we make sure we do a hike or something and say it's for exercise and my well being, I could probably convince the Wife!
Great stuff bro!
Thank you!
But, you can't leave pavement with a vehicle that isn't body on frame, lifted, on 44s, with lockers, and a driver with a small endowment! Or so says my buddy who needed me to pull his ranger out with my 2017 rtl-t honda.
Hahahahah 100% truth!
Doesn’t hurt when you have a Gladiator And Wrangler tagging along 😆. Just teasing! Awesome video - Gladiator Rubicon owner
@@Moab12 those Jeeps made all the difference. If it wasn’t for them, I’m not sure if we would have all **summited** to be honest. When I get around to making the video about Imogene Pass, I’ll make sure to include that. It’s so important to me to be transparent and accurate about what happened.
It can be done, but the vehicles WILL NOT last long doing this all the time
Great video.
I miss my 04 pilot. But she had frame rust. She was laid to rest. But before her passing she requested we get a 2020 4 runner in her place.
Nicely done, Jon. I like how you compared each vehicle and pointed out their strengths and weaknesses.
Thanks NK! I didn't find this trail to be terrible technical, ground clearance is a good thing, but the main challenge are the steep climbs. Some of the technical obstacles are on the steep climbs which adds to the difficulty, that's why gearing is so important on a trail like this.
Hope you guys had a good time, it was cool meeting you at Poser Rock on Imogene. We were in that green diesel rubicon.
Ended up in Moab after like we said. Ran Fins N Things, Hell's Revenge, Elephant Hill, Steel Bender, and Top of the World. Absolutely amazing and can't wait to go back. You were right, Jeeps can pretty much just take whatever line we want. However that doesn't mean it feels great while you are in the thing! 🤣
Did you by chance get footage of BorderlineExplorer spotting me out on to Poser Rock?
Hey! It was nice to meet you too! I'm sure we have footage somewhere. Do you have instagram so we can make this conversation a bit more private? That way we can share email addresses and such, and I could send you the footage. Also, I'll need to give you a shout out when I get around to making the imogene video.
my instagram username is the same as this UA-cam username
Nice to see. And for perspective...
I believe in 2wd and 1st gear, ordinary cars typically have a 10:1 ratio.
My 2wd 3rd gen Tacoma has just over 15:1 and is reasonable for softroading applications. 4.88 gears would only boost me to 18:1. I'm pretty happy stock gears/wheel size, tho.
"Proper" 4wd low range starts around around, say, 30:1
My big upgrade will be All Terrains and a soft topper.
2WD Tacos don’t have a low gear transfer case? A friend of mine has a 2nd Gen prerunner. 2WD but has a rear locker and 2 low
@@JonDZ_Adventuring No, instead, Toyota gave me an insane 2nd Overdrive gear (6th)!
I would rather have had an option for an extra low 1st gear (like 30:1, maybe). I have run into several short stretches in the desert, that I would have liked the option to crawl for a hundred yards thru in extra low. Last 300 yards of the dirt road to Telescope Peak, lookin at U :)
Hi John, keep these videos coming! I wanted to understand the crawl ratio. Is that based on 1st gear? Because if it is, the ZF 9-speed is programed to 'soft' accelerate in 2nd gear. For a 'hard' acceleration, it will take off in 1st gear .... unless you activate SPORT mode. I am wondering if at 16:21 of this video, the Ridgeline would be in SPORT mode, that may have made the climb even easier???? IDK.
Nice! Colorado is on my bucket list.
Curious on how the Pilots and Ridgeline performed on Imogene Pass. Wanting to figure out If the limits on my crossover will be surpassed and just want until I'm able to upgrade my vehicle :/
We got up fairly easy. We had to stop for the Gen 1 pilots to let their transmissions cool down, which let our transmissions take a break, but we both went no higher than 215F. We both got up unassisted, the Gen 1 pilots were towed up the last mile or so. The peak on the Ouray side gets steep.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring cool, thanks for the info.
Best to take advantage of all the sights to let the transmission cool down then huh?
So 4wd/awd is a must for imogene right? I'm in denial that my fwd Rav can tackle it and peaking its impressive limits lol.
@@MC4D. to be honest. Only a few AWDs would make it. For example, Subarus have tried in the past, but have been unsuccessful. I think the new Outback wilderness has a chance of summit one, I’m just not 100% sure. One of the biggest challenges of imogene is the two way traffic. Since the trail is heavily trafficked, there’s a high chance you might have to back up 1/4” on a deadly shelf road, just to let the other vehicles pass.
I’ve yet to release the videos about my Colorado trip. I’ll go over ways to avoid traffic jams.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I really appreciate the info!
I wanna know more about the ridgeline. Great Video.
The Nolodesign's Ridgeline will be featured in atleast 3 more episodes. I have other episodes to edit before I get to these Colorado adventures.
5:56 are you using the smittybuilt compressor ? I’m trying to to figure out a way to mount mine under my hood to save some space lol
Heck yeah! It sure is! I mounted mine in my cargo carrier. I just bolted it down so it's always there and always ready. The alligator clips reach under the hood and to the battery terminal perfectly. I love the Smittybilt 5.65 CFM air compressor. the 35 foot hose is awesome, it'll reach two car lengths.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I’m gonna put a quick connect at the end of it and run more hose so I can air up 2 tires at a time!
I can't wait for more info on that 2021 ridgeline. I'm glad it has the 5 spoke KMC's on it, I originally wanted those but now I have second thoughts!
His Ridgeline is awesome! I'm 90% sure I'm going to look into swapping out my suspension with that of the Ridgeline. I'm jealous of all the clearance.
So the higher the crawl ratio the better climbing at higher elevations?
Is 20:1 the highest seen in AWD vehicles?
Yes, the higher the crawl ratio the better a vehicle will climb and crawl. Currently the highest crawl ratio in a "single speed transfer case" AWD vehicle is currently 21.9:1 in the 2022 Acura MDX. Actually the 2019+ trailhawk renegade/compass have improved differential gearing and they're now geared 21.6:1. Not sure of other countries, Volkswagen has an AWD Truck that's suppose to have impressive single speed gearing.
Loved this mate! Can’t wait for the other vids! Hey btw where can I find out the crawl ratio for my car stock? Is there a site you use?
Car and driver, but your Land Rover Discovery is tricky. I’ll try to find what the ratio is on its low gear transfer case
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Jon you are the man! ❤️🙏🏾
@@mickjlv5836 first gear is 4.71, axle ratio is 3.73 just need to multiply the transfer case. You’re Disco definitely has a low gear transfer case.
www.thecarconnection.com/specifications/land-rover_discovery_2020
Going to do some more searching. In 4 high, your crawl is 17.6:1
@@mickjlv5836 FOUND IT!!!!! Low gear transfer case is 2.93:1 making your Discovery have a 51.5:1 crawl ratio! Pretty beefy!
@@mickjlv5836 source: www.motortrend.com/news/1703-does-the-new-land-rover-discovery-live-up-to-name/
Have you updated your gear ratio chart with the Outback Wilderness? I’m curious
Kinda! The Outback wilderness is geared the same as the Subaru Ascent, which is 14.3:1. Not too far off from how your Outback XT is geared, which is 13.3:1
Cool video! I like how it shows AWD ~vs~ 4WD. Curious whether or not if my '07 Ram 2500 would have any problems out there. I live in S.E. Virginia near the beach and thought about taking a drive out there. Engine power and torque shouldn't be an issue as much as my wheel base. I have 34" BFG KO2's on my truck. It does easily on the sandy beaches in OBX, but that looks like a lot of fun. I have no idea what my crawl ratio is, but I'm guessing it to be at least comparable to the Jeep. Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
You would have no issues on the trails out here, but on imogene pass, the trails are so narrow that running into oncoming traffic will be a big issue. There’s sections on the Telluride side with blind turns (hard to see ahead) where you’ll go 1/4 mile without a place to pull over. When we did Imogene, I scouted ahead. As I passed spots for our convoy to pull over, I’d radio in “we have 3 spots, 2 of you make your way up”.
I’d recommend doing imogene during the middle of the week (as opposed to the busy weekend). The ideal situation is you have someone on a dirt bike to scout ahead. Someone also had a good idea of using a drone to scout the blind turns. Oncoming traffic is the reason the trail could be a nightmare.
Luckily I came across 1 truck head on. I saw it I. The distance, so I raced towards him. I got to him just in time.
instagram.com/p/CRUN4LZA2gV/?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Y'all use HH radios. Do others use a CB? I have a CB in my trucks, both pickup and 18 wheeler. The CB has much better range.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Cool clip. Same username as here with comment left. Thanks!
Great video John! Now I'm not so sure about an overlanding trip I was planning for next year in an 04 honda crv after seeing the pilot ... was planning to hit easy colorado trails a few days and then heading to Utah and Arizona . Plan on camping all the way through the 3 week trip. I cannot find the crappy crawl ratio for my crv anywhere? Any advice?
An 2004 CRV has a crawl ratio of 11.9:1, but you have 160 hp / 162 tq. Don’t worry, there’s plenty to see in Colorado, you can drive up the Ouray ride and it’s just a simple dirt road until about half way up. Many people will drive up towards Yankee Boy Basin, in fact we saw a 2nd Gen CRV driving up there.
Good to hear John! I guess I will give it a go. I do have some decent mods on my little rig.
@@henrym1854 good luck! Have fun! Feel free to message me on Instagram for any points of interest or with any questions
Thanks John, appreciate it.
Cool video, but it's spelled Medano pass, & it's actually quite a bit harder to go west to east over it, your doing the first part of it climbing hills in that sand, makes it a little more technical
Thanks, someone pointed out the spelling error already. Going east to west I’m showing a 1800 ft. Climb over 9 miles. Going East to West it’s a 500 ft. Climb in 3/4 mile. Unfortunately, we didn’t have any soft sand when we did Medano pass. There was a light storm a day before we hit this trail and the sand was hard packed.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring if that sand dries out, definitely more of a challenge, I have a 2004 jeep TJ struggled a bit, but I didn't air down, your AWD, would have had some issues, like I said, cool vid, thanks for responding
@@Mountainghost72 thanks for the comments and giving me valuable feedback. When I eventually make the video for Medano Pass I’d like it to be as accurate as possible. I really appreciate comments like these.
After coming down from the chunky water crossing portion of the trail, It was hard for me to tell the sandy part was downhill (from East to West). I’ve driven 8 miles up steep grades in a snow drift, wasn’t fun. 12 inches of minimum clearance and a twin clutch rear differential was the only reason I got through. Much of it was 14 inches of center track (so something with lots of clearance plowed through, but I was still scraping on 2 inches between the tracks. When it comes to this soft stuff, it’s so important to avoid high centering.
Here a link to my ordeal. It’ll give you a good idea of how some of these newer AWD systems perform. The Midsized Hondas are similar to a Bronco Sport Badlands, we just have better gearing.
ua-cam.com/video/G5qHx0DAPGM/v-deo.html
Will that 2021 ridge line black Honda emblem on the front work with our 2019 passports? Also the grill?
I'm not sure. The Grill definitely won't work. The 2021 Ridgelines Grill is all new and is a different boxier shape.
Interesting that there aren't videos of Renegades going Imogene Pass, I know several guys (with Renegades) that have done it...Black Bear, Ophir, etc.
I don't doubt it! Renegades have the exact same ZF9 transmission as the current midsized Hondas. Just shows how much gearing makes a difference! I researched Fins N Things in Moab and saw that the only AWD vehicles that completed the trail were renegrade trailhawks. IMO, Fins N things is much more demanding than Imogene Pass, even though the Jeep badge of honor app rates Fins as a 3-4 and Imogene as a 4-6.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Which is interesting because Jeep says the Renegade TH gets a 21:1 1st gear ratio...so I'd be interested to know if Jeep marketing is rounding up, or if the 1st gear is slightly different vs. Honda's 20:1 1st gear...ultimately doesn't matter to me, but is that marketing at work, or are they slightly different?
@@luchaDor oh! There must have been a recent change. The differentials went from 4.33 to 4.58. The new crawl ratio is actually 21.6:1. They can technically round up to 22:1 if their marketing so pleased.
Looks like the change happened in 2019. Car and driver must of had older info back when I did my research.
Hmmm, I’d love to get my passport regeared. I wouldn’t want just 21.6:1 though, I’d like to get it at around 25:1. Because I run 2.5” taller tires, I’d be at 22.9:1, which would be perfect!
Looks fun! What equation do you use to find the crawl ratio of awd systems?
Very very simple math! You just take the vehicles first gear and multiply it by the final drive ratio (axle ratio). If the vehicle has a low gear transfer case (or cases), multiply that in too!
So for example, a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon has a 1st gear of 5.13:1 and a final drive of 4.10:1. Multiple that and it's 21:1. That's just in 2WD of 4WD high! Now, once the 4.0:1 Low gear transfer case is engaged, multiple that in too and you have an astounding 84:1 crawl ratio.
It's really simple for my Passport, first gear is 4.71 and final drive is 4.33, multiply it all together and it's 20.4:1
@@JonDZ_Adventuring ok that’s what I thought! I appreciate the example, so that means that my 2021 Sorento S AWD is a 18.3:1, so not the worst on the list of AWDs at least!
@@GRAVIITYGAMING 18.3:1 is actually better than a Bronco Sports 17.9:1. Crazy that it has a "4 low" button, huh? All it does is lock it into 1st gear.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring that’s crazy to think I love the bronco sport too, but we needed a little bigger for our family, I am enjoying it so far, you inspired me to try and do all these fun adventures, I’ll be recording what I can, thank you very much!
‘Deploy’ the tarp!!!
Male cow. Interesting... this video is dope
Jon any thoughts on doing Black Bear Pass in an AWD Honda?
I had the opportunity, but since my Wife was with me, I just couldn’t bring myself to attempt the USA’s most notorious trail. My AWD colleague @bruceyyyyy did it in his Subaru Outback. It’s all downhill so having the experience to know how to avoid locking up the brakes will help. There’s a technique to it. AWDs will have a lower center of gravity. 4WDs have more wheel articulation and low range to engine brake down. it’s less about off-road capability, and more about careful line choice.
Could the 22 ford escape do something like this? Or whould it be too much stress?
Many AWD vehicles don’t have the gearing to get through this trail, but a 2022 Ford Escape does. Next up, it would need enough ground clearance. I’d recommend about 10 inches. Going up the Telluride is supposed to be easier, we went up the Ouray side.
My jeep cherokee traillhawk has a 56 to 1 Dont know if id be fine or not
@@pliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii that’s almost twice the crawl ratio as a 4Runner. You’ll be Okie.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Ive done some small overlanding but nothing cool like you guys do
Do I dare try these trails in the 2018 outback. Or.. wait until next summer when I get the sequoia
The main challenge with this trail will be the high elevations and prolonged climbs. I would not recommend this trail in a vehicle that doesn’t have the gearing for it. The Sequoia should do it easily. But keep in mind that the main danger of this trail is that there’s many spots on the telluride side that don’t have any space to pass. You’ll come across areas where you would have to back up 1/4 mile just to pull over. Try to go on a non busy day.
no male cow... it's a bull.
Came here looking for these comments. Haha. Male cow had me laughing. They hang out with the male hens, and male does
what mode was the ridgeline on when he climbed that ?
Probably just regular. Axles didn’t get crossed up, so no wheel slip. We both have the Traxda 3.5” lift kit, both have 32.1” tires and we both deleted our rear sway bars. With the bigger tires crawl ratio goes from 20.4:1 to 18.7:1, but still enough to not bog down on an obstacle like that.
2013-2020 Nissan pathfinder with a VCT can do it.
Ding da ding ding bong bong bong 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Hahahhaahaha
4:40 song plzzz
if youre doing hardcore stuff why not just get a proper 4WD? i mean with mods you got on your passport would it handle similar to a stock or slightly mod 4wd?
I have about 5 videos about why I no longer drive a 4WD. I use to drive a FJ cruiser. You have to think about all the driving that has to be done between destinations. I had to drive 900 miles to get to Colorado. Did I need a 4WD to get to the peak of imogene pass? No. Did my Passport struggle getting to the top? No. My Passport is also my favorite daily driver. Great mix of performance, onroad handling, comfort, luxury. Not sure if you’re aware, but the Passport does 0-60 in 5.8 seconds stock, and gets up to 27-29 mpg highway. With my mods now I’m getting 21-23 highway at 70 mph. Btw, the trails in this video are by no means “hardcore”. What are you driving?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I have an evo for going fast fj for driving in the sandbox and element for everyday lol I've taken my fj to moab don't have the balls or experience nor 4x4 friends yet to try the more technical bits but I'm trying to learn how to read the road everytime I go out and tbh fj wasn't too bad driving all the way to moab from so cal
The dude with a pop up tent ha obviously never camped in shitty weather 🤣 laughing my ass off from the PCT in Washington lol
LOL! There was crappy weather though! He used his Honda Pilot to block the wind, his tent survived. HOWEVER, Casey @mike_honchos_honda has this giant roof top tent. The wind was so fierce that it blew up the bottom part off the RTT and made a "TACO" out of it while he was still in it. HAahahahahahah, sorry! I know it's not funny, but it kinda is. Poor dude had to climb down and sleep in his vehicle until the winds died down. WAIT... you have cell reception on the PCT?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring in town with a fucked up foot. My pack weighs 8 lbs but I sent it a little too hard & now I have a walking issue lol. Both of those dudes need better shelter. Rooftop tent is also probably best for koa camping. I feel like the 4x4 & overlanding crowd always pick bad tentsites that have too much wind, just for the pics. I always try to camp in the low country at night. Trees make a huge difference with the wind & rain. I know it’s hard to avoid wind that high up above tree line but you could’ve probably picked a better site or planned your timing better tbh 🤷♂️ I feel like once you have a solid 1000+ nights camping, you start being really anal about campsite selection 🤣
@@MmmmmmmmmmmMm15 I’m convinced that the weather report only has a 50% of being right 😖.
Wait until you see my Pop up tents full "bad weather" setup. I have a 20x30 tarp that covers the whole tent. On the windy night I was able to set rock on all 14 of the guy lines that hold the tarp taught.
Whoo, first! 😎
very impressive!
Do you have an App that does this? haha
@@JonDZ_Adventuring 😂 Nope! Notifications squad! 😎 👌
PS: No such thing as a male cow😆😆😆 - it’s a “Bull”….. Bulls have “Ds” and Cows have, well, I’ll let u figure that part out!💁🏽♂️
Haha! Thanks! What's a male lady bug?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring that - I 🤷🏾😂🤣😂. Maybe “Lady-Killer” ??
So jealous .... from locked down ontario in chinada
Hoping you'll get some freedom soon!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring thx John! Maybe join you guys some day!?. I've done offloading in American west on mcycles in past. Time to try suv or 4x4.....but for now, living vicariously through your channel and others you've recommended.
Elevation is irrelevant, your vehicles are fuel injected!
All of you should just buy a Tacoma or 4runner
I actually tried to buy a Tacoma, but I’m just too big for one. Toyota should have made the cabin taller and should replace the Corolla like seating position with a real truck seating position. 4 runner is just too old for me. It’s like the 2008 FJ cruiser I use to drive. Til today, there still isn’t a vehicle that’s just right for me. All Midsized Trucks are too small, except for the Ridgeline, but if I’m buying a truck, I’d want it with a 50:1+ crawl ratio and front and rear lockers. Maybe I just need to move onto a Ford F-150. The Bronco is promising, but I don’t want a turbo.
Is this overlanding or car camping? Overlanding is just a # for marketing ( tryingto sell you a bunch of overpriced crap you don't need).
It is definitely just car camping, I've been doing it ever since I can remember and we just called it car camping.
Haha! I made a video that agrees with what you said. Early on, marketing companies tried to create this “elite” image of overlanding. Many people still believe you need expensive gear and even more importantly a high tier 4WD that’s triple locked and cost $65K. Many of us found out that we don’t need all the gear that’s on an Xpedition Overland episode.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I mean if you have money to blow then go for it but the term overlanding is literally a term for marketing purpose to sell you a bunch of crap you don't really need. The easiest way is to start with essentials (what you already have) and make it work and buy stuff as you need or want. I personally have been doing this all my life and I know I want a proper 4x4 but in all honesty people don't really even need it most of the time, they just wanna look cool. Most trails even have an easy side where you can do it in a freaking crv