Fiaz is correct. I like Ezra but he just doesn't seem in touch with actual middle class Americans. It's Bernie's messages of make the rich and corporations contribute their fair share that works.
The problem with Ezra and a majority of the left leaning pundit/consultant class is that they only care about the "minds" half of the "winning hearts and minds" equation. People want someone they can relate to or aspire to be- they wanna hear Bill Clinton say "I feel your pain," they want the abstract "cool" factor of Obama, and yes, they wanna be a billionaire celebrity like Trump. All of these West Wing pilled dorks are incapable of realizing that and they are killing the party and the country because of it. The other thing they can't realize is that you have to have an enemy, you have to have someone you promise to punch and make pay for the fact that the country is screwed up. And if you're the party of "institutionalism" and you had the chance after 2008 to punish the banks and you let millions of people get foreclosed on while you bailed out the banksters and none of them went to jail... well, it becomes very, very hard for anyone to believe you when you say you're going to take on the system.
Ezra has the perspective of your typical liberal, elitist Democrat. He's a very sharp guy, but has near zero understanding of the typical middle America, working class or lower middle class voter. It is this disconnect that explains why Democrats just lost, will continue to lose, and will, time to time eke out a narrow victory.
Exactly. The first 15 minutes of this video were spent by Ezra trying to blame Bernie policies as the reason for the Democrat party election failures. Shakir did a great job of debunking all of Era's views in that short time frame. It's so obvious Ezra is for the establishment. I'm not even sure why I bother with his podcasts anymore. I couldn't make it past the first 15 minutes.
Good Lord, Ezra. Your Manchin argument does not counter the "Democratics have a brand problem" it PROVES it. The Democratic candidates who win, do so by running away from the Democratic Brand.
What a shocker 😵Ezra here can't believe it, he thinks it's only about 'The Democratic Brand" marketing, facade, and also in regards to that, the Biden pardon must have really helped the brand, no 💩 Clowns like this excuse of a journalist is also why people have dropped the democrap party. Then they act all shocked when Trump gets elected. What could have been?! 🤔
@@bentrinker1937 I dont think people are hung up on cold war terminology as much as you think, especially given the cold war has been over for 30 years.
@@commodusleitdorf2726 man, I really wish we could rerun history where we had an entire Fox News and republican media apparatus going after the guy who openly calls himself a socialist. I wish we could see that. You don’t know how wrong you are.
Well, he made the argument that the housing prices were caused by private equity and then Ezra correctly pointed out that they are caused by not allowing housing construction especially in Democrats heavy states.
@@compedium right and that’s when Faiz explains you emphasize the going after the corporate landlords on the campaign trail (who are still part of the problem here) and then once you win, also go after the affluent democrats that are preventing affordable housing from being built in suburbia.
He, his base and issues were off the table… also consider her advisors many ex Obama folks who seem to hate sanders just like their ex boss who would do anything to not have Bernie as a dnc candidate…. They shun him.
Fiaz's analysis is refreshig and this interveiw is just an hour of me yelling at the screen "YOURE NOT GETTING IT EZZRA- UR SO CLOSE PLEASE PLEASE AGHHHH"
No one likes the health care they have. They just fear that whatever it changes to will be worse. Which is a justified fear since it has done nothing but get worse for as long as I have been alive. I did annual enrollment the other day and Cigna has the balls to say that a high deductible health plan is a benefit to me because it encourages me to shop around for a good deal. When I am being rushed to the emergency room, my priority is not calling up the different hospitals to get quotes. Our healthcare system is completely broken in this country. When a global pandemic broke out the first politician to be pushed out of the race was the only one supporting universal healthcare.
@@zuzanazuscinova5209so we should accept the one where people go into bankruptcy because of medical bills? In a country where they check credit history on a warehouse worker? You’re laughable.
Health care is wasteful anyway, to fill up quotas and rack up bills to charge folks. What would be less wasteful is that people would be able to rely on health care to treat their ailments, so they would trust hospitals and utilize them. Instead of having to choose between health and food. @zuzanazuscinova5209
@@zuzanazuscinova5209 who the hell goes to the ER for fun? People only go if they need to, but in our current system people who need to go sometimes don't because of the cost. When I was in college a man was stabbed outside my dorm and instead of paying for an ambulance he walked to the hospital, leaving a trail of blood on the sidewalk. Is that the society we want to live in? I certainly don't.
I caucused for Bernie in 2016 in a somewhat affluent suburb of Minneapolis. As we crowded into that middle school classroom, we debated why we supported either candidate and the energy for a real economic populist for president was very apparent (among almost exclusively 40+ white men and women). It wasn't a complete runaway for Bernie over Hillary, but it was an easy majority among 30+ constituents. When I saw the undemocratic super delegate system play out (and basically give the nomination away to Hillary), I decided I'll never support an establishment Democrat again.
Anecdotally, most people I talk to are anti-corporation; both staunch Reps and Dems. The fact that Dem politicians are not using that disdain is at the very least malpractice and at worst corruption. This can be utilized to propel policies that make the least of our lives better or it can be used to propel us towards authoritarianism. Unfortunately, we are allowing the latter.
Cmon Ezra... I like your level of intellectualism but you gotta get out of your bubble and into the real world where the energy is. There's plenty of evidence showing corporatism has degraded our society and is highly unpopular. Let it continue onward and what will be left?
Klein refuses to engage on the most important issue Shakir presents: the need to confront the powerful. Americans have been acculturated to view contests monochromatically : good versus evil. And the hero has to really HURT the bad guy. For the political situation now, that means not just a full-throated attack on the rich and powerful, but actual perp-walks and convictions of people like Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan Chase, which has five felony convictions since the 2007-8 financial crash. Go after the executives, the people, behind the crimes. Or when private equity executives impose cost cutting on hospitals and nursing homes that result in increased death rates, they should be charged with MURDER. A large part of what liberals hate about Trump -- and that appeals to his base looking for a real fight between good and evil -- is that he is willing to use rhetoric that threatens this type of violent retribution against his opponents.
You are 100% correct. I was about to write a similar response. I believe Obama did tremendous damage to the Democratic brand when he refused to go after Wall Street and didn't bailout homeowners directly (due to moral hazard, cause the little might learn to rely on their government). Also the rotating villains (Manchin, Cinema, Liberman, etc) of the party that it deploys when it wants to kill a populist policy minium wage increase or public option healthcare must be expelled and replaced. The Republicans did this during the Tea Party era, when they when after the Rinos. Democrats now though are a party of institutionalists and rule followers, in a time when the people hate the institutions and the rules. The future I see is bleak.
Americans visiting Europe are amazed at the quality of life that its citizens enjoy: 35 hour work week, paid family leave, free university, efficient public transit, single-payer healthcare, subsidized childcare, on and on. One important reason is that they haven't made "socialism" a boogey man, in fact socialist parties are part of governing coalitions and are continuously advocating for these positions.
Untrue. I'm a European who moved to the US to escape what you have just described. Using public transport is a pain if that's all you can afford. The preference for me is to have a car and good highway system like the US. The free healthcare is many times inefficient and wait times are outrageous. For example , try getting a dentist in Britain. Free education is nice but then again there aren't very many high paying jobs in Europe that education will get you. Sales tax and energy costs are very high. Overall a competent person has a better quality of life in the US. Not to mention WFH is much more acceptable in the US now than in Europe which means you can have a nice house in the suburbs instead of being crammed in a city apartment. There's also very limited availability of subsidized childcare so many people gave to use private anyway.
Sure if you're visiting Western or Nordic Europe and your income is in the bottom 30-40th percentile. The median American home is twice the size of the European one and the US median income income is higher than practically every country in Europe. Even when you adjust for cost of living, welfare programs, and taxes, every country in Europe has a larger percent of their population under the American poverty line than the US itself, with the exception of Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Norway. If you're poor it's usually better to live in parts of western and Northern Europe. If you're middle class and above, life is usually better in the US. Which is why there is net migration TOWARDS the US from the EU, and its the case for every single country in Europe. Skilled and educated Europeans know they make much more in the US than in their own country. Also pretty much all the welfare programs you listed exist in the US, they're just at the state level. Some states decide to have expensive public subsidized programs and some states don't. Outside of India the largest public education university system in the world is California's UC/CSU system. Everything has tradeoffs. European countries tend to favor tradeoffs that favor the poorest part of their population at the cost of those who don't need to depend on government assistance. Meanwhile the US tradeoffs are generally more favorable for those who don't require public subsidized aid, and less favorable to those who do.
Populism refers to policies that are popular amongst the people. An issue arises though because historically "giving the people what they want" has been used to smuggle some devious BS either explicitly or under the radar - see Hitler as exhibit A. The really borked issue however is that populism can also just refer to popular policies that the majority of the constituency wants as a result of systems that are incompatible with sufficient quality of life - See Sanders. Populism is a bad describing word, it isn't a value judgement. The judgement needs to be made on a case by case scenario and, if it's bad, then call it fascist populism.
I thought he did a good job. Ezra challenged the idea that Bernie Sanders' style of economic populism is the answer to Democrats' problems.... he kept bringing up some key problems: Biden is already quite populist but isn't very popular; even great populist politicians like Sherrod Brown are losing working-class areas; and Joe Manchin actually won by being moderate (shooting ad..), not populist. Ezra Klein's main point seemed to be that while talking about economic fairness sounds great in theory, the real world is messier - you might lose suburban voters if you go too hard against the wealthy, cultural issues like immigration can't just be swept aside, and similar left-wing movements in other countries haven't done very well. Throughout the interview, he kept asking for real evidence that this approach would work for anyone besides Bernie himself. Democrats' challenges can't be solved just by changing how they talk about the economy.
Gee Ezra, I came back into this podcast at 47 minutes and you’re still perplexed about why people didn’t vote for Joe Biden’s policies and Kamala. Embracing traditional liberalism or neoliberalism, or any other form of that, is not going to work. We need a fundamental change and at least steps in that direction, clearly delineated by political candidates. You don’t need to defend the New York Times.
@jimmccall-yo7es the 1990s were 30 years ago. And a large part of his success was from ross perot. The last 3 elections the democrats ran centralist and it only worked when there was a global pandemic and when Biden said he supported things like a public option
Same here. The 2016 primary caused the scales to fall from my eyes in many ways. Only difference is that Bernie also lost my support after he refused to call out the DNC and Clinton campaign for their perversion of justice during that primary. The whole system needs to be dismantled - and it looks like Trump is the man for the job
@@elcadejo44that’s a pretty braindead take, Trump has made it clear he isn’t interested in dismantling the system. He’s only interested in distorting it to better fit him. I understand your reasonings for voting for him, but, given where we currently are, you cannot honestly believe he’s going to dismantle anything for the better And where is your horror for all the vile things Trump did? You’re soooooo upset with Bernie for not calling out Hillary, but you support Trump after Jan 6th? That doesn’t add up sweetie
absolutely? a LOT of trump supporters actually said they'd consider or even vote for bernie because he actually gave a damn about the economy and the working class which a lot of trump supporters are a big part of. A lot of trump supporters legit just care about making money for their families yet dems keep spouting bs after bs.
I remember in 2016 hearing this a lot too. And I can't tell you how many times people said it's a reason not to vote for Bernie - because he attracts Trump voters. Imagine NOT wanting people to vote for you in an election. This is a big reason why the Dems lose. Too many Democrats don't care so much about winning as they care about winning OR LOSING with the people they personally feel comfortable being around. Does anyone think for a moment Trump likes being around the vast majority of people who vote for him? Of fucking course not.
UGHHH Ezra politics 101a most people vote based on how a candidate makes them feel not on perfect policy. For instance a very small thing - when did dems start saying middle class and stop saying working class? Look at bill and jfk speeches, it cuts across: Dems don’t make workers feel like they hear and feel your pain, the answer is status quo, democracy is slow and takes time, being moral police but then playing hypocrites, making everything the anti-Trump party, and not responding to the urgency of the existential crises we’re all terrified of. You’re playing defense on trumps turf and playing right into his hand and your yelling is not even being heard anymore- it means nothing and we’re all sick of it. You need to create a whole new turf.
I thought he did a good job. Ezra challenged the idea that Bernie Sanders' style of economic populism is the answer to Democrats' problems.... he kept bringing up some key problems: Biden is already quite populist but isn't very popular; even great populist politicians like Sherrod Brown are losing working-class areas; and Joe Manchin actually won by being moderate (shooting ad..), not populist. Ezra Klein's main point seemed to be that while talking about economic fairness sounds great in theory, the real world is messier - you might lose suburban voters if you go too hard against the wealthy, cultural issues like immigration can't just be swept aside, and similar left-wing movements in other countries haven't done very well. Throughout the interview, he kept asking for real evidence that this approach would work for anyone besides Bernie himself. Democrats' challenges can't be solved just by changing how they talk about the economy.
@ this is debunked info that pelosi and the institutional dems shove down our throats so keep padding her pockets and bring about real democracy for the people in favor of true progressive policies. Look at 2016 DNC corruption in pulling forward Hilary, Bernie’s polls, interviews on Rogan and Fox News. He’s for the people by the people and REAL so he connects. Biden and the DNC preach moral imperatives and chastise and polarize the right with their woke BS that doesn’t speak to vast majority of voters or their needs meanwhile they’re involved in various scandals, billionaires, superPACs, etc. that have them appear they’re just as bad as Trump and simply different shades of Republican. This dem woke cancel culture excludes and shuts down any sort of discussion of coalition building beyond their own echo chambers and then you wonder why it was a clear cut election? It’s about the emotional not policies - do you connect and are you authentic do I feel like you’re working for me and not the establishment. This was an anti-establishment election where people need transformational change and at the end of the day they ran on the status quo and didn’t speak to majority of Americans at all nor meet them where they’re at (hence the elitist judgment from many former dems)
@ also re: Joe Manchins popularity it goes back to him being anti-establishment and pushing back on dems when not in service of the people. Indisputable fact- president with a 30% approval rating is certainly NOT a populist. This hyperfocus on policies and identity politics you’re espousing is what the dems totally missed and will continue to lose elections until they get it.
Klein “I know the housing market. The main problem is NIMBYism.” Klein, who is as detached from economic hardship and the people on the ground as anyone, in his gleaming modern spaceship office, dutifully fights hard for the things that his upbringing and class have embedded so deeply in his heart and soul, that they appear as another appendage, or as a reflection of himself: Capitalism, Zionism, Credentialism, DNC bubble brain, and his belief that his own complete and thorough mastery via research of things like the housing market reflect nothing less than absolute reality. Kamala Harris lost because she did the Ezra Klein, not because she and Biden did the Bernie Sanders. And Klein’s insistence otherwise reflects blinkered thought and his own hivemind attachment to others of his ilk and class.
I like you, Ezra, but the introduction to this podcast was frustrating and I think it is the reason why people didn't get behind Harris. The media telling us that it is obvious that Biden was the most working-class friendly administration since FDR is not the answer. Being told how to think about something that should seem obvious to me, actually should be obvious. The Democrats will continue to fail if the media doesn't listen then report instead of pushing an agenda that satisfies the left-wing establishment (the Clintons, Harris, etc.) and doesn't grow the coalition across the political spectrum.
It's not "who's on the side of the worker" as much as "who's going to disrupt this system that we all agree we don't like". What we disrupt it with for many voters is a secondary question. They want things smashed. They want change, not the change in name only but actual disruptive change. It sometimes leads them to authoritarian right, but it can equally well lead them to the progressive left. What you can't do is to endlessly moderate it because very few people actually like the way things are.
Yeah, Ezra's just as out of touch as he's ever been. It's really quite incredible to bear witness to the density of one human. What's infuriating is he's definitely not stupid, so it is starting to feel willful.
Actually, they had 3 chances. In the single race they won, it was an all-time squeaker while the country was melting down. But you see, the DNC are smart.
@@picklethepirate Bernie has been saying the same things for DECADES. Unlike Kamala who changed all her policies when she was coronated. I think I know how is the honest one.
People want a party that will serve them - that will deliver the goods, bring home the bacon, and create and sustain a system that makes their lives liveable.
That’s the thing, though. Bernie style politics would work because it’s way easier to bully Democratic Party loyalists and MSNBC-type liberals to vote for a Bernie than it is to bully the working class to vote for a corporate neoliberal. The only hurdle is overcoming the corruption of the DNC by moneyed interests, which Bernie nearly achieved.
I am a 61 year old diabetic who just came home from the hospital with insurance wondering if my high deductible coverage is going to drop on me. Yes, Bernie cared. Everyone else not so much.
As someone who is actually listening to the podcast and not just responding to the (frankly clickbait) title, I just wanted to say that this is an excellent discussion. I've been a Bernie partisan since 2016, and I thought all of Ezra's questions and responses were fair, thoughtful, and yielded an enriching exchange that is rare in our current media landscape. Well done!
Ezra, I love your content, but I do think you’re too close to the housing crisis (wife’s reporting) to be nuanced in this. Most problems are multivalent, but you are not seeing that the NIMBYs are being ginned up by folks that profit from their policies (bankers & builders) We have plenty of housing. We lack housing that we need. Much in the same way that US made trucks have become “muscle-bound” rather than functional, housing is not giving us what we want or need, but what makes a profit at our expense. We are given false choice options like toddlers asked if they want to wear the striped or polka dot socks. As long as empty buildings are a business write off, we will not get proper housing options.
With good management. Yeah definitely. His messages are popular. He is too consistent to really attack him the same way some other politicians could be attacked and it's dangerous to go after him in the way one would Biden or a Harris. And he does very much have that populist air of. I'm tired of this BS and I want to help you people. I actually care about your problems. So yes, if he were properly managed and about 15 years younger definitely.
A charismatic populist of any stripes could win in this environment. Good policy helps but the key is charisma. Almost every democrat is the opposite of that. They can have some success because we are in a two party system but they lack all charisma. There, I solved it, you’re welcome. Dems run a charismatic populist that wants to fight for the working class without blaming other working class people.
"Sanders is just genuinely appalled," Ezra Klein exclaimed as he pondered the discomforts and inconveniences of living in his ivory tower. His exasperation remained a mystery to all those who lacked his superior intellect.
Anecdotal, but every republican I have a substantive conversation with has respect for Bernie, and Bernie alone on the "left." Consistency, plain messaging, and a working-class-forward platform go a long way for people.
@@ben-fe3zy I don't consider them a constituency worth wasting too much energy on, as we learned this year you can dump $1bil into them and get served a loss
Bernie wasn't tested on a national level? He went on Fox News multiple times for town halls and had the crowd, again on Fox News, agreeing with him over the hosts. He would have been fine in a general election.
More than ever, this is the exact reason why this country needs to move towards Ranked-Choice Voting. If we had Ranked-Choice voting in 2016, every Clinton voter would've put Bernie as their 2nd choice, and every Trump voter would've put Bernie as their 2nd choice. Would that have changed the results?? We will never know, and I am not suggesting that. But the post-election conversation would've shifted to this: "Why are Americans so vehemently divided on their 1st choice? But why are they in unanimous agreement on their 2nd choice?"
It’s 2024. The democratic establishment doomed us to this in 2016 and again in 2020. Bernie is too old to run again, so, as much as we love the “I told you so”, it’s not constructive. It’s time to look toward what our future can be, to who the new leaders of America will be
Nah, I told you so is helpful, because we need to be clear about which direction we need to go, and it's Toward Bernie style social democracy , not more Hillary style neoliberalism.
I’m wondering if a politician with name recognition like Beto O’Rourke could begin working with Bernie on the same issues. Maybe he could become his heir apparent. By the time the next presidential election rolls around he could become a legitimate contender.
The host of the show repeatedly refused to "buy" any argument, which can be a point of reflection for the donkey party. This delusional ignorance will cost democrats a lot of elections in the coming future 😢
There is PLENTY of building going on in Chicago, and has been non-stop since the early aughts, with a brief break during the financial crisis. The problem is that it's ALL LUXURY HOUSING. Tens of thousands of affordable housing units have been razed or gut-rehabbed, changing and gentrifying the entire north side and parts of the South Side, driving out lower income people. That fact explains how we in the middle and working class neighborhoods of the far N side rebelled and tossed out Rahm Emmanuel, Lori Lightfoot, and trounced Paul Vallas in favor of a city council majority that no longer heels to the real estate lobby that has forced moderate income people out of neighborhoods like Bronzeville, Pilsen, Bridgeport, Uptown, Edgwater, Rogers Park, Logan Square, Wicker Park, Bucktown, Lakeview, Albany Park, Ravenswood, Lincoln Square, West Town, Ukrainian Village, Near West Side, Humboldt Park, etc. The Working Families Party and DSA candidates won in many of those neighborhoods, as many of us tossed out the developer funded candidates and demanded more AFFORDABLE housing units be built.
Bernie would have had an uphill climb like no other democratic candidate. It would have been similar to McGovern 1972. Most Democratic politicians across the country would do everything to undermine his potential general election campaign, some would even endorse Trump. Virtually all of the media would run against him. Many older Democratic voters still listen to, and/or put trust in the mainstream media. All the big voices would be telling voters that Bernie can’t be trusted one way or another.
Trump has been hated by the media for the last 10 years at least. He has won 2 election. When will y'all realize the media is not seen as reliable anymore? And frankly, those people are right - not because they spread fake news, but because they are very selective about what they air and what they don't.
24:00 interjecting here before I go on, if Joe manchin had delivered on those things then the Democratic brand wouldn't have been as broken and he could have still won. Joe manchin's local redness is tribal, but a rising Democratic brand would have resulted in the opposite New York times map.
Joe Manchin is corrupt af and hated by many. Those who support him are basically voters who support Republican ideals. He is a politician due to cronieism, wealth and pandering to the rich.
What a breath of fresh air Mr. Shakir is. The Harris campaign was so brain dead. So obviously empty, afraid to say anything, aligned with corporations. She sent Marc Cuban out to tell rich people she wasn't going to tax them and expected that we on the left would turn out for her because we had nowhere else to go. She campaigned with Liz Cheney but wouldn't meet with those who care about the people of Gaza. Despite how nauseatingly empty I found her campaign, I nevertheless campaigned for her. But there was no energy because people like me were turned off. We need real Democrats. Candidates who believe in something and are willing to stand for it. If someone ran on adding a public option to the ACA, I think they'd win going away. Try arguing against a public option. Doesn't require anyone to give anything up. "Private companies will be driven out!" they'll say. To which we'll respond, "Oh cry me a river. What's wrong? The super efficiency of the capitalists can't compete with the inefficiencies of big government?" That's just one issue among many. So many possibilities to fire up a constituency and get them out there, knocking on doors, working hard. Please, Democrats, no more empty suits like Harris. No more hypocrites like Biden. Find a young Bernie and don't sabotage the campaign. Get behind a real economic populist. FDR ran on economic populism and won overwhelmingly, four times in a row. At the height of his power, he had 80% majorities in Congress.
I just remember in 2016 feeling so dismayed and ashamed that the minimum wage had not risen since 2009. -If you told me then that in another 8 years ... after further financial disruptions brought on by a global pandemic, and massive inflation of everyday living costs like food and shelter ..... the minimum wage would _still_ be seven dollars and twenty-five cents ....... I just wouldn't believe you. I wouldn't. How could I believe something that sick and un-American?
Is Ezra is just playing Devil's Advocate in this discussion? I've never heard him sound so corporate-apologist, in fact I could swear I've heard him advocate for things like what the guest is saying.
The guy hosting this podcast comes off as annoying, smug, and acts like a know it all. Needs to move out of the city and live in a working class environment for a couple of years and see the United States that so many of us are suffering in.
What Ezra is looking to understand about Bernie is that Bernie is a 'statesman', which a higher quality of politician beyond what exists in congress today - moral compass, a bedrock of principles, the ability to build consensus these qualities are rare to non existent in most of congress - and if you put it all together in one person you get a statesman
Ezra, all your counterpoints and rebuttals are smart, informed, and cutting, but, if you are correct, why is Donald Trump (even after a million COVID deaths, Jan 6th, and criminal convictions) the president elect AGAIN? What ideas do you support that could have changed that?
You cannot quote national economic numbers to people whose *REGIONAL* economy is gone to hell. Every State that went for Trump is an Economic Region in *DECLINE* despite the national Economic numbers, which are largely fueled by international speculation, energy exports, and monetary service and pharmaceutical industries. You can't tell people who live in Rural Areas, whose Roads get worse every year, whose groceries go up, who have never seen a new car in their lives, who are drowning in debt, living paycheck to paycheck... that the economy is great. That plow won't scour.
I’m a long-time Bernie supporter but it’s worth noting that his state of Vermont is one of the most expensive and least accessible and affordable states for the working class to live. Working class Vermonters: I’d love to be proven wrong. Let’s hear from you!
Probably but we’ll never get the honor of knowing for sure. Sanders is a flawed politician (they all are) but he is more honorable, more consistent than most of his peers. That doesn’t excuse his occasional blunder, everyone looks good in comparison to someone else.
Middle-aged, Mid-West, White, Cis, Male here. Without a doubt Bernie would have won in 2016, 2020 & 2024 if the DNC would have had the wisdom to nominate him. Most of the dudes I know liked Trump & Bernie equally. I only liked Bernie but the point is that, Bernie also attracts a lot of Trump voters and a ton of other types of voters that Trump doesn't. He would have mopped the floor with Trump every single time if he had the DNC backing. The reason the Dems don't nominate Bernie is blatantly obvious to everyone. We aren't stupid. The dems don't nominate Bernie because it would piss off their corporate donors. Not surprised a NY Times podcast pushes back against this notion. The reason Harris lost is because she did not once mention any of the popular programs that Bernie pushed for like M4A, $15 minimum wage & affordable higher education. No, she paraded out Liz Cheney and billionaires to campaign with instead. The DNC is completely out of touch with the American people. They gambled that they could win on the pro-life issue alone. That didn't work either because they had a chance to codify Roe v Wade and they didn't because they wouldn't have that issue to run on then. I guess they also have LGBTQ and guns... Not primary concerns of people that are having trouble paying their bills, afford housing and food. It's too late now anyway. The Dems will never see the inside of the Whitehouse again now that they have told us to peacfully transition to the guy they called a fascist and calls himself a dictator. Their donors don't care.
Ezra seems obsessed with what others think: Faiz is stressing standing by what *you* think is good. That's what connects Bernie, Trump, Joe Manchin, AOC, etc.
Bernie is not talking about a class-based politics, he seems to me to promote more progressive taxation and better services to build a less unequal society and benefit the majority. The independent conviction candidate seems important. Bernie is so clear: "we need to get big money out of politics". As an outside observer the media kept celebrating the billion dollars plus and the deluge of get out the vote ads etc. Message is free.
Fiaz makes a really flawed point here. When he brings up that Google employees are voting for Democrats and UPS employees are voting for Republicans, he (and a lot of other people) is implying that it's because the Democrat party specifically appeals to rich, high-educated people by design AND that if Bernie ran, it wouldn't be the case. He's wrong. This is not about the "working class" vs. the not working class. This is about culture. The vast majority of Google employees are young and live in liberal cities (which skew liberal) and/or in liberal states: California, New York, Austin etc, having gone to liberal colleges in those liberal states where they likely grew up with their liberal family. That's why their voting Democrat and donating Democrat. Also, they have the money to do it! As opposed to the average UPS worker who makes a lot less. These trends exist across most tech companies and are not a product of the Democrat party specifically appealing to richer people. In contrast, UPS workers are much more evenly distributed around the country and UPS typically recruit out the most liberal schools in the most liberal cities in the most liberal states in the country. If anything, Bernie has pandered to the highly educated, richer population the last few cycles by trumpeting student loan debt forgiveness. Talk about out of touch with the working class.
Standing for Bernie's principles and voting for Trump is one of the most moronic thing you can do in your entire life. These voters really are the most crazy useful idiots in the world rn
@@hundredfireifyfor many it's not about the principles for many. It's that there's clearly something different from the rest of their colleagues about them. It's not the same difference in fairness. But they are both different.
A huge coalition of Bernie's supporters shifted to Trump after the DNC fraud of 2016. You can thank the corrupted media and Democrat party for Trump's ongoing success @@hundredfireify
Not everyone .. and that’s the key. A Bernie vote would perhaps have united sides that think they cannot possibly agree on anything. Our deeply polarized conversations need to be re-energized - healed, actually - with a different focus and purpose.
Bernie needed better advice on healthcare. France's healthcare system is consistently rated the best in the world. And it works like our Medicare does: a partnership between public fees and private insurance. Most people can afford a secondary policy, and they buy one. If they can't, the government pays, like our Medi-Medi. So there's no need to "abolish private insurance" to have a workable, affordable health system. Expand Medicare now.
Why are we looking backward at this point? We need something different from the past to take on the moment. I think someone in the mold of a John Fetterman, who can be authentic and clearly indifferent to the establishment is the contrast required for an era of lies, deceit and political correctness.
Fiaz is correct. I like Ezra but he just doesn't seem in touch with actual middle class Americans. It's Bernie's messages of make the rich and corporations contribute their fair share that works.
Strong agreement. Ezra has many blindspots.
Does this mean I have to watch the whole damned thing now?
They blocked him.
They are detestable.
The problem with Ezra and a majority of the left leaning pundit/consultant class is that they only care about the "minds" half of the "winning hearts and minds" equation. People want someone they can relate to or aspire to be- they wanna hear Bill Clinton say "I feel your pain," they want the abstract "cool" factor of Obama, and yes, they wanna be a billionaire celebrity like Trump. All of these West Wing pilled dorks are incapable of realizing that and they are killing the party and the country because of it.
The other thing they can't realize is that you have to have an enemy, you have to have someone you promise to punch and make pay for the fact that the country is screwed up. And if you're the party of "institutionalism" and you had the chance after 2008 to punish the banks and you let millions of people get foreclosed on while you bailed out the banksters and none of them went to jail... well, it becomes very, very hard for anyone to believe you when you say you're going to take on the system.
Ezra has the perspective of your typical liberal, elitist Democrat. He's a very sharp guy, but has near zero understanding of the typical middle America, working class or lower middle class voter. It is this disconnect that explains why Democrats just lost, will continue to lose, and will, time to time eke out a narrow victory.
Exactly.
The first 15 minutes of this video were spent by Ezra trying to blame Bernie policies as the reason for the Democrat party election failures.
Shakir did a great job of debunking all of Era's views in that short time frame.
It's so obvious Ezra is for the establishment. I'm not even sure why I bother with his podcasts anymore. I couldn't make it past the first 15 minutes.
Good Lord, Ezra. Your Manchin argument does not counter the "Democratics have a brand problem" it PROVES it. The Democratic candidates who win, do so by running away from the Democratic Brand.
These conversations are SO critical they should have been happened 10-years ago.
Also, Bernie gets the working class, the entire media does not.
What a shocker 😵Ezra here can't believe it, he thinks it's only about 'The Democratic Brand" marketing, facade, and also in regards to that, the Biden pardon must have really helped the brand, no 💩 Clowns like this excuse of a journalist is also why people have dropped the democrap party. Then they act all shocked when Trump gets elected. What could have been?! 🤔
Half of the working class would be calling Bernie Sanders a socialist.
@@bentrinker1937 I dont think people are hung up on cold war terminology as much as you think, especially given the cold war has been over for 30 years.
@@bentrinker1937The working class cares about who is better for their money. Taxes, jobs, pay, costs.
@@commodusleitdorf2726 man, I really wish we could rerun history where we had an entire Fox News and republican media apparatus going after the guy who openly calls himself a socialist. I wish we could see that. You don’t know how wrong you are.
All I hear from Ezra is cope and denial of Faiz Shakir's correct comments.
Well, he made the argument that the housing prices were caused by private equity and then Ezra correctly pointed out that they are caused by not allowing housing construction especially in Democrats heavy states.
@compedium Exactly, it's. It's not just about messaging
@@compedium right and that’s when Faiz explains you emphasize the going after the corporate landlords on the campaign trail (who are still part of the problem here) and then once you win, also go after the affluent democrats that are preventing affordable housing from being built in suburbia.
Bernie always has my vote
He was very popular with all the people we needed to win over in the exact places we needed them to vote for Harris.
And why wasn't he part of the campaign? Was that Bernie or the Harris team?
Harris campaigned with fucking Liz Cheney. What does that tell you? They HATE Bernie!!
In my opinion it's because he was largely ignored by the Harris team.@@KathrynHaugan
He, his base and issues were off the table… also consider her advisors many ex Obama folks who seem to hate sanders just like their ex boss who would do anything to not have Bernie as a dnc candidate…. They shun him.
Maybe she should have had Bernie campaigning for her and not Liz Cheney!!! OMFG 🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦
Fiaz's analysis is refreshig and this interveiw is just an hour of me yelling at the screen "YOURE NOT GETTING IT EZZRA- UR SO CLOSE PLEASE PLEASE AGHHHH"
💯
No one likes the health care they have. They just fear that whatever it changes to will be worse. Which is a justified fear since it has done nothing but get worse for as long as I have been alive. I did annual enrollment the other day and Cigna has the balls to say that a high deductible health plan is a benefit to me because it encourages me to shop around for a good deal. When I am being rushed to the emergency room, my priority is not calling up the different hospitals to get quotes. Our healthcare system is completely broken in this country. When a global pandemic broke out the first politician to be pushed out of the race was the only one supporting universal healthcare.
How many times in your life are you rushed into an emergency room? Socialized medicine does encourage wastefulness. There's no perfect answer.
@@zuzanazuscinova5209so we should accept the one where people go into bankruptcy because of medical bills? In a country where they check credit history on a warehouse worker? You’re laughable.
@@zuzanazuscinova5209have you lived abroad and experienced a different system?
Health care is wasteful anyway, to fill up quotas and rack up bills to charge folks. What would be less wasteful is that people would be able to rely on health care to treat their ailments, so they would trust hospitals and utilize them. Instead of having to choose between health and food. @zuzanazuscinova5209
@@zuzanazuscinova5209 who the hell goes to the ER for fun? People only go if they need to, but in our current system people who need to go sometimes don't because of the cost. When I was in college a man was stabbed outside my dorm and instead of paying for an ambulance he walked to the hospital, leaving a trail of blood on the sidewalk. Is that the society we want to live in? I certainly don't.
Great point, Bernie was never acknowledged by Harris.
He’s a threat.
Because she's racist.
I caucused for Bernie in 2016 in a somewhat affluent suburb of Minneapolis. As we crowded into that middle school classroom, we debated why we supported either candidate and the energy for a real economic populist for president was very apparent (among almost exclusively 40+ white men and women). It wasn't a complete runaway for Bernie over Hillary, but it was an easy majority among 30+ constituents. When I saw the undemocratic super delegate system play out (and basically give the nomination away to Hillary), I decided I'll never support an establishment Democrat again.
Actually over 40 years ago.
Yes. End of video.
Anecdotally, most people I talk to are anti-corporation; both staunch Reps and Dems. The fact that Dem politicians are not using that disdain is at the very least malpractice and at worst corruption. This can be utilized to propel policies that make the least of our lives better or it can be used to propel us towards authoritarianism. Unfortunately, we are allowing the latter.
What’s your gender if I may ask?
Cmon Ezra... I like your level of intellectualism but you gotta get out of your bubble and into the real world where the energy is. There's plenty of evidence showing corporatism has degraded our society and is highly unpopular. Let it continue onward and what will be left?
He has no “intellectualism.” He is an Israeli propagandist working for this most Goebbels of a newspaper.
He's part of the consultant world that benefits directly from corporatism
@ He is also a genocide apologist.
@@ephesians_2_8 IDF is a top 5 military in the world. If they wanted to eliminate Gaza, they would’ve done it in
@ Hasbara.
Klein refuses to engage on the most important issue Shakir presents: the need to confront the powerful. Americans have been acculturated to view contests monochromatically : good versus evil. And the hero has to really HURT the bad guy. For the political situation now, that means not just a full-throated attack on the rich and powerful, but actual perp-walks and convictions of people like Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan Chase, which has five felony convictions since the 2007-8 financial crash. Go after the executives, the people, behind the crimes. Or when private equity executives impose cost cutting on hospitals and nursing homes that result in increased death rates, they should be charged with MURDER. A large part of what liberals hate about Trump -- and that appeals to his base looking for a real fight between good and evil -- is that he is willing to use rhetoric that threatens this type of violent retribution against his opponents.
You are 100% correct. I was about to write a similar response. I believe Obama did tremendous damage to the Democratic brand when he refused to go after Wall Street and didn't bailout homeowners directly (due to moral hazard, cause the little might learn to rely on their government). Also the rotating villains (Manchin, Cinema, Liberman, etc) of the party that it deploys when it wants to kill a populist policy minium wage increase or public option healthcare must be expelled and replaced. The Republicans did this during the Tea Party era, when they when after the Rinos. Democrats now though are a party of institutionalists and rule followers, in a time when the people hate the institutions and the rules. The future I see is bleak.
Americans visiting Europe are amazed at the quality of life that its citizens enjoy: 35 hour work week, paid family leave, free university, efficient public transit, single-payer healthcare, subsidized childcare, on and on. One important reason is that they haven't made "socialism" a boogey man, in fact socialist parties are part of governing coalitions and are continuously advocating for these positions.
Untrue. I'm a European who moved to the US to escape what you have just described. Using public transport is a pain if that's all you can afford. The preference for me is to have a car and good highway system like the US. The free healthcare is many times inefficient and wait times are outrageous. For example , try getting a dentist in Britain. Free education is nice but then again there aren't very many high paying jobs in Europe that education will get you. Sales tax and energy costs are very high. Overall a competent person has a better quality of life in the US. Not to mention WFH is much more acceptable in the US now than in Europe which means you can have a nice house in the suburbs instead of being crammed in a city apartment. There's also very limited availability of subsidized childcare so many people gave to use private anyway.
@@zuzanazuscinova5209the flow goes both ways.
Lower salaries and median purchasing power
@@zuzanazuscinova5209 Which country are you talking about exactly?
Sure if you're visiting Western or Nordic Europe and your income is in the bottom 30-40th percentile. The median American home is twice the size of the European one and the US median income income is higher than practically every country in Europe. Even when you adjust for cost of living, welfare programs, and taxes, every country in Europe has a larger percent of their population under the American poverty line than the US itself, with the exception of Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Norway. If you're poor it's usually better to live in parts of western and Northern Europe. If you're middle class and above, life is usually better in the US. Which is why there is net migration TOWARDS the US from the EU, and its the case for every single country in Europe. Skilled and educated Europeans know they make much more in the US than in their own country.
Also pretty much all the welfare programs you listed exist in the US, they're just at the state level. Some states decide to have expensive public subsidized programs and some states don't. Outside of India the largest public education university system in the world is California's UC/CSU system.
Everything has tradeoffs. European countries tend to favor tradeoffs that favor the poorest part of their population at the cost of those who don't need to depend on government assistance. Meanwhile the US tradeoffs are generally more favorable for those who don't require public subsidized aid, and less favorable to those who do.
The word "populist" referring to Sanders just seems a bit odd from a non-US perspective... His points seems so common sense to me.
what do you think the root word of populism is?
Populism refers to policies that are popular amongst the people.
An issue arises though because historically "giving the people what they want" has been used to smuggle some devious BS either explicitly or under the radar - see Hitler as exhibit A.
The really borked issue however is that populism can also just refer to popular policies that the majority of the constituency wants as a result of systems that are incompatible with sufficient quality of life - See Sanders.
Populism is a bad describing word, it isn't a value judgement. The judgement needs to be made on a case by case scenario and, if it's bad, then call it fascist populism.
Erza is begining to really frustrate me lately.
He's being willfully obtuse around any question related to economic populism.
@@realworldhuman and has always been.
@@realworldhuman water is wet.
I thought he did a good job. Ezra challenged the idea that Bernie Sanders' style of economic populism is the answer to Democrats' problems.... he kept bringing up some key problems: Biden is already quite populist but isn't very popular; even great populist politicians like Sherrod Brown are losing working-class areas; and Joe Manchin actually won by being moderate (shooting ad..), not populist. Ezra Klein's main point seemed to be that while talking about economic fairness sounds great in theory, the real world is messier - you might lose suburban voters if you go too hard against the wealthy, cultural issues like immigration can't just be swept aside, and similar left-wing movements in other countries haven't done very well. Throughout the interview, he kept asking for real evidence that this approach would work for anyone besides Bernie himself. Democrats' challenges can't be solved just by changing how they talk about the economy.
Gee Ezra, I came back into this podcast at 47 minutes and you’re still perplexed about why people didn’t vote for Joe Biden’s policies and Kamala. Embracing traditional liberalism or neoliberalism, or any other form of that, is not going to work. We need a fundamental change and at least steps in that direction, clearly delineated by political candidates. You don’t need to defend the New York Times.
Ezra just cannot get his bosses's boot out of his own mouth, not even for a second. Embarrassing!
"Why the boot may be tastier than you think"
No you guys dont understand *real* centerism hasn't been tried yet, we swear it'll work next time. One more chance, bro please, I swear it'll work /s
You’re not on Reddit no need for the s
If by centrism you're referring to neoliberalism which Bill Clinton brought into the Democratic party, you're correct.
^^Bingo.
@@PhilsmahsmchjsbI don't have enough faith in the youtube comment section to pick up on sarcasm lol
@jimmccall-yo7es the 1990s were 30 years ago. And a large part of his success was from ross perot. The last 3 elections the democrats ran centralist and it only worked when there was a global pandemic and when Biden said he supported things like a public option
I voted for Trump twice and wrote in Bernie in 2016. Bernie would have easily had my vote in 20 and 24.
I'm interested in hearing more of your perspective. Can you give more detail of why?
Same here. The 2016 primary caused the scales to fall from my eyes in many ways. Only difference is that Bernie also lost my support after he refused to call out the DNC and Clinton campaign for their perversion of justice during that primary. The whole system needs to be dismantled - and it looks like Trump is the man for the job
You are irrelevant
@@elcadejo44that’s a pretty braindead take, Trump has made it clear he isn’t interested in dismantling the system. He’s only interested in distorting it to better fit him. I understand your reasonings for voting for him, but, given where we currently are, you cannot honestly believe he’s going to dismantle anything for the better
And where is your horror for all the vile things Trump did? You’re soooooo upset with Bernie for not calling out Hillary, but you support Trump after Jan 6th? That doesn’t add up sweetie
Same. I’ve voted Trump 3 times and would’ve voted for him over Trump all 3 times given the choice.
A man cannot understand something if his salary depends on not understanding it - Ezras plight
absolutely? a LOT of trump supporters actually said they'd consider or even vote for bernie because he actually gave a damn about the economy and the working class which a lot of trump supporters are a big part of. A lot of trump supporters legit just care about making money for their families yet dems keep spouting bs after bs.
I remember in 2016 hearing this a lot too. And I can't tell you how many times people said it's a reason not to vote for Bernie - because he attracts Trump voters.
Imagine NOT wanting people to vote for you in an election.
This is a big reason why the Dems lose. Too many Democrats don't care so much about winning as they care about winning OR LOSING with the people they personally feel comfortable being around.
Does anyone think for a moment Trump likes being around the vast majority of people who vote for him? Of fucking course not.
Bernie won the majority of districts in Wisconsin, but yet, who did the super delegates vote for?
UGHHH Ezra politics 101a most people vote based on how a candidate makes them feel not on perfect policy.
For instance a very small thing - when did dems start saying middle class and stop saying working class? Look at bill and jfk speeches, it cuts across:
Dems don’t make workers feel like they hear and feel your pain, the answer is status quo, democracy is slow and takes time, being moral police but then playing hypocrites, making everything the anti-Trump party, and not responding to the urgency of the existential crises we’re all terrified of.
You’re playing defense on trumps turf and playing right into his hand and your yelling is not even being heard anymore- it means nothing and we’re all sick of it. You need to create a whole new turf.
I thought he did a good job. Ezra challenged the idea that Bernie Sanders' style of economic populism is the answer to Democrats' problems.... he kept bringing up some key problems: Biden is already quite populist but isn't very popular; even great populist politicians like Sherrod Brown are losing working-class areas; and Joe Manchin actually won by being moderate (shooting ad..), not populist. Ezra Klein's main point seemed to be that while talking about economic fairness sounds great in theory, the real world is messier - you might lose suburban voters if you go too hard against the wealthy, cultural issues like immigration can't just be swept aside, and similar left-wing movements in other countries haven't done very well. Throughout the interview, he kept asking for real evidence that this approach would work for anyone besides Bernie himself. Democrats' challenges can't be solved just by changing how they talk about the economy.
@ this is debunked info that pelosi and the institutional dems shove down our throats so keep padding her pockets and bring about real democracy for the people in favor of true progressive policies. Look at 2016 DNC corruption in pulling forward Hilary, Bernie’s polls, interviews on Rogan and Fox News. He’s for the people by the people and REAL so he connects.
Biden and the DNC preach moral imperatives and chastise and polarize the right with their woke BS that doesn’t speak to vast majority of voters or their needs meanwhile they’re involved in various scandals, billionaires, superPACs, etc. that have them appear they’re just as bad as Trump and simply different shades of Republican. This dem woke cancel culture excludes and shuts down any sort of discussion of coalition building beyond their own echo chambers and then you wonder why it was a clear cut election?
It’s about the emotional not policies - do you connect and are you authentic do I feel like you’re working for me and not the establishment. This was an anti-establishment election where people need transformational change and at the end of the day they ran on the status quo and didn’t speak to majority of Americans at all nor meet them where they’re at (hence the elitist judgment from many former dems)
@ also re: Joe Manchins popularity it goes back to him being anti-establishment and pushing back on dems when not in service of the people.
Indisputable fact- president with a 30% approval rating is certainly NOT a populist. This hyperfocus on policies and identity politics you’re espousing is what the dems totally missed and will continue to lose elections until they get it.
@compedium it's the populist message not policy
I’m not 100% sure that Bernie would’ve won, but I also can’t think of any viable alternative for the Democrats going forward.
There isn't anyone.
@ I mean his messaging, not necessarily the man himself.
I'm sure they will prop up some corporate goon, lose, and then scold the base for not doing their job and voting for who they were told to vote for.
Ezra is just willfully ignorant. He just cannot fathom any perspective outside of his worldview.
Dude grew up in Irvine, Ca. He has never worked a real job in his life.
Klein “I know the housing market. The main problem is NIMBYism.” Klein, who is as detached from economic hardship and the people on the ground as anyone, in his gleaming modern spaceship office, dutifully fights hard for the things that his upbringing and class have embedded so deeply in his heart and soul, that they appear as another appendage, or as a reflection of himself: Capitalism, Zionism, Credentialism, DNC bubble brain, and his belief that his own complete and thorough mastery via research of things like the housing market reflect nothing less than absolute reality.
Kamala Harris lost because she did the Ezra Klein, not because she and Biden did the Bernie Sanders. And Klein’s insistence otherwise reflects blinkered thought and his own hivemind attachment to others of his ilk and class.
Spot on.
I like you, Ezra, but the introduction to this podcast was frustrating and I think it is the reason why people didn't get behind Harris. The media telling us that it is obvious that Biden was the most working-class friendly administration since FDR is not the answer. Being told how to think about something that should seem obvious to me, actually should be obvious.
The Democrats will continue to fail if the media doesn't listen then report instead of pushing an agenda that satisfies the left-wing establishment (the Clintons, Harris, etc.) and doesn't grow the coalition across the political spectrum.
💯
It's not "who's on the side of the worker" as much as "who's going to disrupt this system that we all agree we don't like". What we disrupt it with for many voters is a secondary question. They want things smashed. They want change, not the change in name only but actual disruptive change. It sometimes leads them to authoritarian right, but it can equally well lead them to the progressive left. What you can't do is to endlessly moderate it because very few people actually like the way things are.
Ezra sounds pretty much like a corporate stooge frankly
It's almost like he works for the NYT.
Before even listening to this, the answer to the question posed in the title is, yes. It was yes in 2020 too.
And 2016
Yeah, Ezra's just as out of touch as he's ever been. It's really quite incredible to bear witness to the density of one human. What's infuriating is he's definitely not stupid, so it is starting to feel willful.
I'm a Trump voter. But I'm good if Bernie was the Dem candidate and won.
Duh! You people screwed our one and only chance.
Aww you actually believe Bernie was honest? Adorable!!!
Actually, they had 3 chances. In the single race they won, it was an all-time squeaker while the country was melting down. But you see, the DNC are smart.
@@picklethepirate Bernie has been saying the same things for DECADES. Unlike Kamala who changed all her policies when she was coronated. I think I know how is the honest one.
56:35 "are w really so different"
YES, YOU ARE THE OPPOSITIONAL FORCE THAT NEEDS TO BE REMOVED 😂
I listened to all of this. Yes, I think Bernie would have won.
People want a party that will serve them - that will deliver the goods, bring home the bacon, and create and sustain a system that makes their lives liveable.
Democrats are too smart to understand this.
The real issue is for Bernie style politics is that guys like Ezra won't vote for it and prefer Trump.
That’s the thing, though. Bernie style politics would work because it’s way easier to bully Democratic Party loyalists and MSNBC-type liberals to vote for a Bernie than it is to bully the working class to vote for a corporate neoliberal. The only hurdle is overcoming the corruption of the DNC by moneyed interests, which Bernie nearly achieved.
Yes
I am a 61 year old diabetic who just came home from the hospital with insurance wondering if my high deductible coverage is going to drop on me. Yes, Bernie cared. Everyone else not so much.
As someone who is actually listening to the podcast and not just responding to the (frankly clickbait) title, I just wanted to say that this is an excellent discussion. I've been a Bernie partisan since 2016, and I thought all of Ezra's questions and responses were fair, thoughtful, and yielded an enriching exchange that is rare in our current media landscape. Well done!
Ezra, I love your content, but I do think you’re too close to the housing crisis (wife’s reporting) to be nuanced in this. Most problems are multivalent, but you are not seeing that the NIMBYs are being ginned up by folks that profit from their policies (bankers & builders) We have plenty of housing. We lack housing that we need. Much in the same way that US made trucks have become “muscle-bound” rather than functional, housing is not giving us what we want or need, but what makes a profit at our expense. We are given false choice options like toddlers asked if they want to wear the striped or polka dot socks. As long as empty buildings are a business write off, we will not get proper housing options.
Ezra is an elitist snob. Thats why his side didn't win. Until he comes back down to Earth, he will continue to lose.
It's who he is
People like Ezra need to find new careers.
@@xclampazzo lol. Ezra is not loved in this comments section. It's curious
Dude grew up in Irvine, Ca. He has never lived on planet earth , or worked a real job in his life.
Bernie wins Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Nevada. So YES Bernie would've won
In 2016 he freaking won Oklahoma, Alaska, Nebraska, Idaho, etc the vast majority of the deep red midwest. It's a no-brainer,
Please replace Ezra Klein, he does not have anything to say
With good management. Yeah definitely. His messages are popular. He is too consistent to really attack him the same way some other politicians could be attacked and it's dangerous to go after him in the way one would Biden or a Harris. And he does very much have that populist air of. I'm tired of this BS and I want to help you people. I actually care about your problems. So yes, if he were properly managed and about 15 years younger definitely.
Yes to Bernie & yes to Faiz.
A charismatic populist of any stripes could win in this environment. Good policy helps but the key is charisma. Almost every democrat is the opposite of that. They can have some success because we are in a two party system but they lack all charisma. There, I solved it, you’re welcome. Dems run a charismatic populist that wants to fight for the working class without blaming other working class people.
Ro Khanna is my bet.
That's absolutely right. Charisma is the key.
Ezra Klein finding a way to swallow the whole boot in this interview. What a corporate stooge.
"Sanders is just genuinely appalled," Ezra Klein exclaimed as he pondered the discomforts and inconveniences of living in his ivory tower. His exasperation remained a mystery to all those who lacked his superior intellect.
Anecdotal, but every republican I have a substantive conversation with has respect for Bernie, and Bernie alone on the "left." Consistency, plain messaging, and a working-class-forward platform go a long way for people.
I have had the same experience
I suppose the question then is.... Will the college educated,"centrists", vote for him (or now, someone like him). If so, the problem is the party
@@ben-fe3zy I don't consider them a constituency worth wasting too much energy on, as we learned this year you can dump $1bil into them and get served a loss
@hohuho420 exactly, it is not worth sacrificing 2/3's of the electorate for a few thousand suburban votes.
@@jonathanpuigvert7468 agreed
Ezra is so out of touch. Next
Bernie wasn't tested on a national level? He went on Fox News multiple times for town halls and had the crowd, again on Fox News, agreeing with him over the hosts. He would have been fine in a general election.
More than ever, this is the exact reason why this country needs to move towards Ranked-Choice Voting.
If we had Ranked-Choice voting in 2016, every Clinton voter would've put Bernie as their 2nd choice, and every Trump voter would've put Bernie as their 2nd choice. Would that have changed the results?? We will never know, and I am not suggesting that. But the post-election conversation would've shifted to this:
"Why are Americans so vehemently divided on their 1st choice? But why are they in unanimous agreement on their 2nd choice?"
I cannot begin to fathom why ranked-choice voting ballot measures failed so tremendously this year
interview Thomas franks
It’s 2024. The democratic establishment doomed us to this in 2016 and again in 2020. Bernie is too old to run again, so, as much as we love the “I told you so”, it’s not constructive. It’s time to look toward what our future can be, to who the new leaders of America will be
We need to get rid of people that went with her, He got 2nd place in the last primary. We need change not the same failure.
Nah, I told you so is helpful, because we need to be clear about which direction we need to go, and it's Toward Bernie style social democracy , not more Hillary style neoliberalism.
I’m wondering if a politician with name recognition like Beto O’Rourke could begin working with Bernie on the same issues. Maybe he could become his heir apparent. By the time the next presidential election rolls around he could become a legitimate contender.
The host of the show repeatedly refused to "buy" any argument, which can be a point of reflection for the donkey party. This delusional ignorance will cost democrats a lot of elections in the coming future 😢
There is PLENTY of building going on in Chicago, and has been non-stop since the early aughts, with a brief break during the financial crisis. The problem is that it's ALL LUXURY HOUSING. Tens of thousands of affordable housing units have been razed or gut-rehabbed, changing and gentrifying the entire north side and parts of the South Side, driving out lower income people. That fact explains how we in the middle and working class neighborhoods of the far N side rebelled and tossed out Rahm Emmanuel, Lori Lightfoot, and trounced Paul Vallas in favor of a city council majority that no longer heels to the real estate lobby that has forced moderate income people out of neighborhoods like Bronzeville, Pilsen, Bridgeport, Uptown, Edgwater, Rogers Park, Logan Square, Wicker Park, Bucktown, Lakeview, Albany Park, Ravenswood, Lincoln Square, West Town, Ukrainian Village, Near West Side, Humboldt Park, etc. The Working Families Party and DSA candidates won in many of those neighborhoods, as many of us tossed out the developer funded candidates and demanded more AFFORDABLE housing units be built.
Bernie would have had an uphill climb like no other democratic candidate. It would have been similar to McGovern 1972. Most Democratic politicians across the country would do everything to undermine his potential general election campaign, some would even endorse Trump. Virtually all of the media would run against him. Many older Democratic voters still listen to, and/or put trust in the mainstream media. All the big voices would be telling voters that Bernie can’t be trusted one way or another.
Trump has been hated by the media for the last 10 years at least. He has won 2 election.
When will y'all realize the media is not seen as reliable anymore? And frankly, those people are right - not because they spread fake news, but because they are very selective about what they air and what they don't.
24:00 interjecting here before I go on, if Joe manchin had delivered on those things then the Democratic brand wouldn't have been as broken and he could have still won. Joe manchin's local redness is tribal, but a rising Democratic brand would have resulted in the opposite New York times map.
Embracing Bernie ism is about rejecting democratic hypocrisy
Joe Manchin is corrupt af and hated by many. Those who support him are basically voters who support Republican ideals. He is a politician due to cronieism, wealth and pandering to the rich.
What a breath of fresh air Mr. Shakir is. The Harris campaign was so brain dead. So obviously empty, afraid to say anything, aligned with corporations. She sent Marc Cuban out to tell rich people she wasn't going to tax them and expected that we on the left would turn out for her because we had nowhere else to go. She campaigned with Liz Cheney but wouldn't meet with those who care about the people of Gaza. Despite how nauseatingly empty I found her campaign, I nevertheless campaigned for her. But there was no energy because people like me were turned off.
We need real Democrats. Candidates who believe in something and are willing to stand for it. If someone ran on adding a public option to the ACA, I think they'd win going away. Try arguing against a public option. Doesn't require anyone to give anything up. "Private companies will be driven out!" they'll say. To which we'll respond, "Oh cry me a river. What's wrong? The super efficiency of the capitalists can't compete with the inefficiencies of big government?"
That's just one issue among many. So many possibilities to fire up a constituency and get them out there, knocking on doors, working hard. Please, Democrats, no more empty suits like Harris. No more hypocrites like Biden. Find a young Bernie and don't sabotage the campaign. Get behind a real economic populist. FDR ran on economic populism and won overwhelmingly, four times in a row. At the height of his power, he had 80% majorities in Congress.
I just remember in 2016 feeling so dismayed and ashamed that the minimum wage had not risen since 2009. -If you told me then that in another 8 years ... after further financial disruptions brought on by a global pandemic, and massive inflation of everyday living costs like food and shelter ..... the minimum wage would _still_ be seven dollars and twenty-five cents ....... I just wouldn't believe you. I wouldn't. How could I believe something that sick and un-American?
Is Ezra is just playing Devil's Advocate in this discussion? I've never heard him sound so corporate-apologist, in fact I could swear I've heard him advocate for things like what the guest is saying.
He was given his script.
The guy hosting this podcast comes off as annoying, smug, and acts like a know it all. Needs to move out of the city and live in a working class environment for a couple of years and see the United States that so many of us are suffering in.
Elites talking about the working class is always such a laugh
They have all the answers... Thats what I've always been told. 😂
Yeah! It's like they want to talk about the working class so they can win the vote. Got no soul in it. Bernie has soul.
34:00 good of ezra to correct himself and say “democratic coalition.” I immediately thought, since when were NIMBYs supporting bernie!?
The environmentals do and they are behind most laws that make building illegal.
In what world is Jim Crow Joe the most 'left' Democrat in the modern era 8:35??? Ezra bffr...
Short answer
YES
What Ezra is looking to understand about Bernie is that Bernie is a 'statesman', which a higher quality of politician beyond what exists in congress today - moral compass, a bedrock of principles, the ability to build consensus these qualities are rare to non existent in most of congress - and if you put it all together in one person you get a statesman
Bernie is great. I voted for RFK. Would have voted for Bernie in a heart beat.
How old are you if I may ask?
@@BenMelman-x9r 39
Yes!
Ezra, all your counterpoints and rebuttals are smart, informed, and cutting, but, if you are correct, why is Donald Trump (even after a million COVID deaths, Jan 6th, and criminal convictions) the president elect AGAIN? What ideas do you support that could have changed that?
lol
You cannot quote national economic numbers to people whose *REGIONAL* economy is gone to hell. Every State that went for Trump is an Economic Region in *DECLINE* despite the national Economic numbers, which are largely fueled by international speculation, energy exports, and monetary service and pharmaceutical industries. You can't tell people who live in Rural Areas, whose Roads get worse every year, whose groceries go up, who have never seen a new car in their lives, who are drowning in debt, living paycheck to paycheck... that the economy is great. That plow won't scour.
I do not know why this is even was entertained. There seems to be confusion with Bernie's post election argument and Bernie as a candidate in 2024.
3 books: Tyranny of Merit by Michael J Sandel; Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek; Don't Get Above Your Raisin by Bill C Malone.
Grateful Shein provides affordable glam clothing outside what can be found at used clothing stores, which literally is, a mixed bag.
I would have voted for Bernie Sanders over any other candidate.
NYT still trying to be relevant?
🌠 Bernie is still the one 🌠
I’m a long-time Bernie supporter but it’s worth noting that his state of Vermont is one of the most expensive and least accessible and affordable states for the working class to live. Working class Vermonters: I’d love to be proven wrong. Let’s hear from you!
Probably but we’ll never get the honor of knowing for sure. Sanders is a flawed politician (they all are) but he is more honorable, more consistent than most of his peers. That doesn’t excuse his occasional blunder, everyone looks good in comparison to someone else.
Middle-aged, Mid-West, White, Cis, Male here. Without a doubt Bernie would have won in 2016, 2020 & 2024 if the DNC would have had the wisdom to nominate him. Most of the dudes I know liked Trump & Bernie equally. I only liked Bernie but the point is that, Bernie also attracts a lot of Trump voters and a ton of other types of voters that Trump doesn't. He would have mopped the floor with Trump every single time if he had the DNC backing. The reason the Dems don't nominate Bernie is blatantly obvious to everyone. We aren't stupid. The dems don't nominate Bernie because it would piss off their corporate donors. Not surprised a NY Times podcast pushes back against this notion. The reason Harris lost is because she did not once mention any of the popular programs that Bernie pushed for like M4A, $15 minimum wage & affordable higher education. No, she paraded out Liz Cheney and billionaires to campaign with instead. The DNC is completely out of touch with the American people. They gambled that they could win on the pro-life issue alone. That didn't work either because they had a chance to codify Roe v Wade and they didn't because they wouldn't have that issue to run on then. I guess they also have LGBTQ and guns... Not primary concerns of people that are having trouble paying their bills, afford housing and food. It's too late now anyway. The Dems will never see the inside of the Whitehouse again now that they have told us to peacfully transition to the guy they called a fascist and calls himself a dictator. Their donors don't care.
Sanders was referring to Repubs not addressing wealth inequality, not just some Dems.
Ezra seems obsessed with what others think: Faiz is stressing standing by what *you* think is good.
That's what connects Bernie, Trump, Joe Manchin, AOC, etc.
Hey Ezra, why don't you also just have Bernie on so you can discuss these things with him directly?
Uh, Duh..
Bernie is not talking about a class-based politics, he seems to me to promote more progressive taxation and better services to build a less unequal society and benefit the majority. The independent conviction candidate seems important. Bernie is so clear: "we need to get big money out of politics". As an outside observer the media kept celebrating the billion dollars plus and the deluge of get out the vote ads etc. Message is free.
Fiaz makes a really flawed point here. When he brings up that Google employees are voting for Democrats and UPS employees are voting for Republicans, he (and a lot of other people) is implying that it's because the Democrat party specifically appeals to rich, high-educated people by design AND that if Bernie ran, it wouldn't be the case. He's wrong. This is not about the "working class" vs. the not working class. This is about culture. The vast majority of Google employees are young and live in liberal cities (which skew liberal) and/or in liberal states: California, New York, Austin etc, having gone to liberal colleges in those liberal states where they likely grew up with their liberal family. That's why their voting Democrat and donating Democrat. Also, they have the money to do it! As opposed to the average UPS worker who makes a lot less. These trends exist across most tech companies and are not a product of the Democrat party specifically appealing to richer people. In contrast, UPS workers are much more evenly distributed around the country and UPS typically recruit out the most liberal schools in the most liberal cities in the most liberal states in the country. If anything, Bernie has pandered to the highly educated, richer population the last few cycles by trumpeting student loan debt forgiveness. Talk about out of touch with the working class.
Bernie came in 2nd place in 2 primaries. Can we move past this?
Everyone who actually knows the answer to this question voted for Trump.
Standing for Bernie's principles and voting for Trump is one of the most moronic thing you can do in your entire life. These voters really are the most crazy useful idiots in the world rn
Truth
@@hundredfireifyfor many it's not about the principles for many. It's that there's clearly something different from the rest of their colleagues about them. It's not the same difference in fairness. But they are both different.
A huge coalition of Bernie's supporters shifted to Trump after the DNC fraud of 2016. You can thank the corrupted media and Democrat party for Trump's ongoing success @@hundredfireify
Not everyone .. and that’s the key. A Bernie vote would perhaps have united sides that think they cannot possibly agree on anything. Our deeply polarized conversations need to be re-energized - healed, actually - with a different focus and purpose.
Obviously yes 😂
Bernie needed better advice on healthcare. France's healthcare system is consistently rated the best in the world. And it works like our Medicare does: a partnership between public fees and private insurance. Most people can afford a secondary policy, and they buy one. If they can't, the government pays, like our Medi-Medi. So there's no need to "abolish private insurance" to have a workable, affordable health system. Expand Medicare now.
I wouldn’t have voted for Bernie Sanders.
Gonna be harder to safely stand up to Goliath with Trump literally weaponizing his audience.
If we can't win, at least I can be right about why.
Answer: yes.
Why are we looking backward at this point? We need something different from the past to take on the moment. I think someone in the mold of a John Fetterman, who can be authentic and clearly indifferent to the establishment is the contrast required for an era of lies, deceit and political correctness.
We'll never know, will we? Why speculate over something that didn't happen?