Is Ethanol Bad For Your Car's Engine?
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2018
- Can Ethanol Damage Car Engines? The Truth About Ethanol Fuels
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Will ethanol damage your car's engine? Is E10, E15, or E85 bad for you car? Can your car handle using ethanol/gasoline blends? This video aims to demystify the effects of alcohol fuels on engine wear, looking at Ethanol, Methanol, Unleaded Gasoline, and alcohol fuel blends.
A study was conducted published in SAE which was supported by the US DOE and US Army, which looked at various fuels and their effects on engine internals, such as the cylinder liner, piston rings, cam lobes and cam followers, and valve guides. They also looked at engine oil wear metal content, as well as sludge, varnish, and deposit formation in various engine locations. The results indicate the various effects of alcohol fuels on an engine.
Source - SAE Technical Paper 811199
www.sae.org/publications/tech...
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A lot of folks seem to be focusing on the fact that it's a 20 hour test, rather than the results. Yet at 20 hours it shows significant differences amongst the results. Also, 20 hours at a high load is much more pressure and stress on an engine than what you do commuting, which is nearly constantly at a very low load. This is an accelerated test as far as wear is concerned. If there are discernible differences at 20 hours, you can certainly learn from the study. While many UA-cam channels simply offer "word of mouth" advice, that's all too often received well, I find it surprising so many are so concerned with a peer reviewed, with controlled variables, published article in what is perhaps the world's most renown journal of automotive engineering. Skepticism is a good thing, we should always question things. This means also not drawing conclusions that the study does not state. It does not, however, mean that the study is meaningless simply because you perceive 20 hours to be a short duration. It's quite common in the industry to run accelerated benchmark tests in order to predict long term reliability. If you're putting out new engines every couple years, you simply don't have the time to run those engines (and all of the individual components involved) to 200,000 miles to see how well they do, so instead you use harsh, accelerated tests to predict future reliability. Anyways, rant over haha, I hope everyone's having a wonderful day!
The corrosive effects of Ethanol occur over time, both electrical and chemical wear, this test didn't take into account the effect of the increased amount of water in Ethanol Blends in the real world, or to two stroke motors (really the worst) or state (at least in your video ) which materials the motor was made from (cast Iron Block or aluminum?) so many variables to state conclusively that its just so, when its just not. Yes, in the right conditions, ethanol is both a viable and cleaner burning fuel than Gasoline. That however doesn't take into account the amount of fossil fuels used to grow, harvest, transport, and process the corn into Ethanol. It's a fuel, but don't confuse it with being a "Green" energy alternative.
Didn't sound like a rent, but the thing I can't find is. Ethanol is more corrosive, you have to replace fuel lines but is it more corrosive any where else or is that just it? Thanks for the video I learned a lot from it
Just a random question, is it better for an engine to keep using the standard 5W30 oil after 15 yers and more than 120k km, or switch to 10w40? Mechanics said to put 10W40 now, considering the older engine and the fact that it now burns some oil. Thanks!!
A while back I watched something saying in Brazil I think it is they only have high content ethanol fuel. All their cars run it from old to new and they seem to be ok.
What you call "word of mouth" I call "urban myths". I sometimes think Engineers like ourselves are wasting our breath (so to speak) trying to educate with FACTS. The biggest thing wrong with the internet of things is that it's made every numbskull into an expert.
The most common one is that premium fuel isn't "worth it" (whatever 'it' is?) because all petrol is the same. And how do we know this? Because Bob is a tanker driver and has 'seen' the tankers always being filled from the same outlets at the refinary ..... YOU know the rest of the song ....
Keep the faith Jason
So you're telling me I can't drink and drive, but my car can?
Pretty much
Yes, I remember teh scare that 'ethanol is an aggressive chemical sure to eat your fuel system. Hey, fancy another beer? Ever seen it dissolve anything?
@@pizzablender I've haven't seen any wear on my fuel system or mechanical parts on my 04 grand prix. Been running 3/4 e85 and 1/4 gas and marvel mystery oil.
Yes
Pop can dissolve stuff for sure, not sure about beer. Ethanol isn't going to damage anything if your car was designed to use it. Most modern cars are designed to use up to 15% or 20% ethanol in Canada most of our gas has up to 10% ethanol. Flex Fuel cars can handle higher amounts of ethanol.
The biggest issue with ethanol blend fuels isn’t the rotating assembly of the engine. The issue is rubber and plastic components in fuel supply accessories like carburetors, fuel tanks, fuel pumps, and flexible fuel lines.
E10 is not suited for older engines. All cars build from the mid 2000s are prepared for it though.
Baron von Limbourgh People seem to forgot just how long E10 has been around. My 89 Toyota pickup had its original manual and it was rated for E0-E10. I’d venture to say any car made in the last 30 years can run on E10 just fine. E15, on the other hand, is a different question.
@@daveedwards6727 not all older cars are suited for e10 though. Lots of cars where but it only became law in the mid 2000s.
My e39s from the late 90s all where suited as well. But my 90s clio wasn't.
Guess it depended on the manufacturer.
My 1993 Opel is rated to be allowed to use E10, but after using it for two years I can tell that my mono-point injector or its rubber sealing rings started failing slowly and leaking fuel, until the point where the engine would be flooded on cold starts and not run until waiting the petrol to vaporize. Finally last December it completely died and the petrol finally made it through the piston rings to the oil sump, where it got in the oil filter and so it starved the engine of oil. End of life, piston rods seized. Motor oil smelling strongly like gasoline. Would this never have happened on E95? Who knows, but it's my experience at least.
Agree. Viton rubber seems to be the way forward. I run a number of older vehicles (1924 to 2001) and its just a case of working though the system end to end. Expensive but not impossible and you can be sure not to have leaks etc. None of the cars or bikes seem to have any I'll effects from e10 or similar. Most of mine are setup with a rich AFR. Nothing to report so far :)
As a mechanic during my college years, the concern about ethanol was not what it did to an engine but, what it did to the inside of the rubber fuel lines, that did the most damage to the engine. Ethanol will degrade rubber and, as the rubber begins to disintegrate inside the rubber fuel lines it turns into a gel that comes up the injection or carburetion on older cars. I never saw damage done by ethanol from a mechanical standpoint.But, have seen the damage it’s done through fuel line degradation. Thank you
Awesome/informative video as always. After seeing this, I'm curious about how it affects other stuff related to the engines like fuel lines, gas tanks, fuel pumps, etc. I know for boats it is a big issue with corrosion in aluminum fuel tanks and in fuel line breakdown which you explain around 8:30. It would be cool to see the rate at which it can cause corrosion or damage to these parts.
I've had to replace fuel lines on my boat from corrosion. Also having to stabilize the fuel tank can be an extra step since it's not used all the time.
The ethanol will eat aluminum carbs on small engines, ESPECIALLY materials produced in China. Small engine tech since 2004. Chinese parts and ethanol make us lots of repair money, unfortunately.
ChrisFix hi
Hello mister Fix!
i have an important question:
How can a camshaft have different wear when using different fuel?
Think about it...
E10 is an absolute nightmare for the motorcycle community. You can NOT let a carbed bike sit for any length of time anymore. It's been especially hard on the vintage stuff. Lots of pitted carb bodies and blown petcocks, both of which are essentially unobtanium today.
I wasn't aware of that SAE study and appreciate you illustrating the findings. Color coding the numbers really helps highlight the extremes in each category.
Happy to hear it!
Motor oil is also reformulated to better withstand the alcohol content of fuels. At least for ACEA spec.
Great point. The parameters they measured seem like a relevant set but would be interesting to see if this study has been replicated by other labs. It also doesn't address potential damage to rubber or plastic components, or the possibility that alcohol-fuel mixes might be more hygroscopic than pure gasoline and lead to increased corrosion.
Why didn't the study go to 2,000 hours run test? How did they go down to so many zeros for wear measurements?
“Ethanol has less energy content”… @ 9:20. I recently found out that sometime in the early 2000’s there was a big push for E10 as way to create a domestic demand for corn (from which ethanol is made). The push for E10 was absolutely not a practical one, it was not a “green” initiative, it was purely a way to stimulate the agriculture economy.
Not surprising. What I don't get why is why farmers are so obsessed with corn. It's not impossible to switch to other crops.
You got that right! Chuck Grassley made all the farmers millionaires.
Not all farmers are millionaires but the corporate farms have made a killing and get richer from the subsidies. The family farms have suffered in comparison.
Always follow the money
I suspect that ethanol is a huge energy waster as opposed to 100 percent gasoline. Why? Because how much fuel and fertilizer is used to grow all that corn? Any studies done on that? If yes, let me know.
As the UK has just gone from E5 to E10 this month (Sept 2021) this was very interesting and quite reassuring to hear. I'm glad this popped up in my suggestion list. Great content. All the best!
Do you drive an older car?
I daily drive a 30 year old Ford, engine wear was never a concern.
Fuel lines and carb internals are going to perish with the increase in ethanol.
I replaced my hard fuel lines to modern lines last year but no modern upgrades for carb internals on the old carbs.
only difference is that here in the uk it is bioethanol as opposed to regular ethanol
My subaru hates e10 and the inlaws subaru barely even runs on it!!!! God know what long term use will do to them but we're not taking the risk!!! Super unleaded only now
@@LostinWales its probably the fuel mapping causing the issues, the engine needs to inject more ethanol to get the same bang as a smaller quantity of normal petrol. Couple that with the issues of old lines, gaskets etc it's just easier to run super now.
E10 has screwed my brothers 2016 honda cbr. It sounds as rough as a clapped out banger now
In Brazil we have Hydrated Ethanol (96% Ethanol) as a fuel option at any gas station and we have cars projected to run with ethanol since the 80s. My car is a flex fuel from 2010 and it's running with ethanol since it was new, it has 160 000 Kilometres (100 000 Miles) and the engine still sounds like new.
Ethanol makes sense in Brazil as you have sugar cane, here it comes from corn
@@juliogonzo2718 wtf lmao 😂😂😂😂
@@bradleypumba it is the sugar in the crop that is fermented to produce the ethanol
@@juliogonzo2718wtf u right lol I thought u were jokeing but nah I looked it up and your for real lmao anyways you learn something new every day
Thanks for this awesome information my Brazilian brother. I’m living in the USA and always wondered why they won’t try that Brazilian Technology here as well…,
But the assumption I have may sound more like a Conspiracy theory though, which is “The Big Oil Industry of America”, forbid such technology to ever start here and deeply take away their profits.
Also i believe Brazil has sugar cane fields that can support your home made fuel, but I’ve heard here in the USA, they don’t have that option, and would have to buy sugar cane from Cuba, but the embargo into Cuba, forbids that.
So I don’t believe America will ever use the Brazilian ethanol fuel system…, unfortunately.
In my experience with the E10 Fuel in Australia, you get a fair drop in fuel economy with E10 fuel which negates the slight dollar saving they give you at the pump for it.
Yap.That´s true. Here in Brazil, ethanol is cheaper but gives a worse fuel economy. Always around a 20 or 30 % less mileage. That´s why brazilian small car are built with bigger fuel tanks.
@@Hernan7929 Out of curiosity, how much are you paying for ethanol vs. gasoline or diesel right now?
If your O2 sensor is working, maximum drop is 3% using E10 (100% has a 30% oxygen content). In Melbourne, E10 is generally 5-6% cheaper than regular petrol, still works out better and it's better for your car, cleaner cyl heads and valves.
@@Hernan7929 When I was using E10 in Australia (BF Falcon XR6), my ute lost power and economy on ULP.
It gained power and economy on PULP.
I got increased power, same as PULP on E10 and worse fuel economy.
But, using E10 it got better Kilometers/miles per $$$ than all other fuels.
The fuel system damage of ethanol is a big issue in the motorcycle and power boating sectors. The tendency for seasonal use means a LOT of older engines out there and the long fuel term storage issues are more problematic. Would love to see any research available on additives that deal with these issues. Perhaps the simplest and ideal option would be to keep Ethanol out of PREMIUM gasoline all together.
Quite a bit indeed
I appreciate that this video is just under the 10 minute mark. Thanks Engeenring Explained! Love your videos, keep up the great work!
Thanks for mentioning the moisture and phase separation issues. It's murder on small carb jets and passages if the gas sits a while. Stabil does nothing for this.
was wondering why all the warnings on lawnmowers and such, that makes sense.
@@JoeHynes284if you're in a state with only ethanol road gas, they do sell straight gas for small engines, but it's about $20 per gallon, by the gallon at home depot & Lowe's.
Gear Whine I have small property so all my stuffs electric but I had always wondered why the ethanol would be an issue not thinking about what you pointed out with the carburetors that’s a good point
Joe schmo
Also, ethanol has a different stoichiometric ratio than gasoline; it needs to be about 30% richer. While a computerized ECU can adjust for different fuel blends, a mechanical carb needs a re-jet or it will run dangerously lean.
I haven't personally had any issues, but I hear what you are saying. I have stored several vehicles with fuel stabilizer for deployments aboard submarines. Just my experience, I'd rather be lucky then good I guess
Ethanol gives "less" fuel economy, but is (atleast where I live, sweden) cheaper. So you have to fill up more but it costs about the same overall. We have e85
Yes! I'm in Sweden currently and it's interesting seeing E85 at all the gas stations.
oh you are, how come you're here? and where in sweden are you?
And its nice to have e85 because we have quite a large old volvo community in sweden, and to get some juice out of those old engines it helps lol
The gov wanted everyone to buy flexfuel cars in Sweden. The cost for e85 have skyrocket and they remove it from alot of gas stations.
ikr suger. Miljömuppar ger en aids
@@EngineeringExplained Hello Jason,
I have stumbled across an older video from Koenigsegg which it covers an a custom build engine.
I was wondering if you have encountered any research on "Combustion Chamber Throttling"
If you have please give us some information.
My guess just by looking at the setup is that it has coils wrapped around the piston and the have controlled current that flows through the cylinder walls in ORDER to control the push/pull movement of the pistons. Thanks for You're time Jason
You nailed this! I own a boat and a business that has multiple pieces of equipment with small carbureted engines. I’ve learned a lot about E10 vs Gasoline. I wish I could have seen this video years ago!
Any chance of you doing a video on how flex fuel kits work? I love your videos! I'm new to learning about cars and your videos explain everything in a way I can understand. Thank you!
I love e85. Been using it for the last 8 years with 0 issues. No fuel problems like everyone mentions. I've converted a couple dodge neons of mine a 01 dodge ram 5.2L and my 08 dodge avenger. All run amazing on e85 and its much cheaper. 👍🏁
Also love E85, petrol is just rubbish compared to E85. I blend it in my outboard from 1983/1984, my moped and some lawnmowers. It's soooooo much difference between petrol and E85 in the lawnmowers when you are breathing in the exhaust the hole time, E85 smells sweet and I don't got shortness of breath, and it's better for the engine 😎 E85 is the future ❤️
I am a marine technician I see the damaging effects of ethanol all the time. It eats apart the inside of fuel lines and primer bulbs. Looks like black sand in the carb bowl, plugs up jets, etc.
I'm still waiting for all these problems. Been using e10 in a 25hp Johnson for 10 years now. Though I use stabilizer in every fillup. Sits 6 months for the winter each year and fires right up in the spring. No problems here.
That’s because it’s not made for 2 stroke engines. Its made for 4 stroke modern engines.
@Rusty Highlander why would I? I said it works great as is with stabilizer of course.
@@afrojojo9475 You answered your own question....
That because the engines you witness have probably done more than 20 hours on ethanol. 🤫
I hadn’t really heard of people worrying about engine wear until your video. I have however heard plenty of people worrying about the fuel system. I’ve also heard of people w/damaged fuel lines.
Here in Brazil we have “flex” cars that can use ethanol or gasoline. Basically every new car her is flex, even BMW or Mercedes.
Our normal gasoline have 25% of ethanol.
We also used to have “ethanol only” cars on 80 or 90s, so you chose a model of car, and than you had to chose if you want it to use ethanol or gasoline. Most of this “ethanol only” cars still alive 30 years later.
Our Corolla now is the first “hybrid flex” car of the world, 16km/l at 0,70 dollar per litter without using fossil fuels, that is pretty good.
Have you got peugeot 406 coupé in Brazil ?
If your car is Japanese and built after 1974 it can run unleaded and 100% ethanol. All it may need is a bit of re-tuning, to increase the air flow.
Some Flex fuel cars have different power and tork according to the fuel that is being used. My car has 101cv with gas and 104cv with ethanol. My sister owns a 2015 VW Fox 1.6 that has 110cv with gas and 120cv with ethanol, some turbo engines also benefits of it, VW 1.0 TSI engines deliver 116cv with gas and 128cv with ethanol.
Another interesting thing is that the fuel filter of flex engines is usually made of plastic and installed in an easy and accessible place because it needs to be replaced in shorter intervals (like 10.000km or 15.000km) and they are very cheap.
Chevrolet Omega 2.0 Alcool: a great engine! Just an Opel OHC, 8-valve, 4 cylinder, 12:1 compression ratio, Bosch motronic 1.5.2 with knock sensor and 130hp! Amazing for a 1993 2 liters 8v engine! The same gasoline engine: 116hp. I own one, wigh 200.000km I rebuild the engine. The pistons, valves was very clean, no carbon deposits. Minimal valves wear. I was surprised... Here in Brazil we have “ hydrous ethanol”, 92% ethanol, leads to more anti-knock power, more compression ratio and more hps!
@Blind Squid I actually test it in my car and ethanol (E95) is a better fuel, more horsepower feels better, but usually it's more cost effective to use gasoline (E25), and yes my car is flex
"Don't do meth" goes for cars as well as for humans.
Good 1, fun tidbit 4 ya. The entire reason we run ethanol is to save the environment. Yet the studies show that the farming practices required to produce it, actually has a higher carbon footprint than just straight gas. Swing and a miss for progressivism, & yet we still do it while knowing better.
Methanol and Ethanol is no the same as far as i know.
@@armstrong2052 Don’t be intentionally dense. If you make the ethanol using waste biomass then its better for the environment, but if you grow sugarcane just to make the ethanol then its bad.
@@adorabasilwinterpock6035 incorrect
@@armstrong2052 yes you are
Thank you for sharing this. You do clearly focus on the engine wear, which the study covers, but as you mention at the end that isn't the problems my vehicles have with ethanol. My small engines are more likely to gum up over winter and my E85/flex car fuel system components are much more expensive than the parts for the non-flex version of the same vehicle.
Great video, which answered a couple questions but I have a number more! Is there anything online that details more of the comparisons between using petrol and ethanol, power, mpg, how an engine needs to be mapped to suit pure ethanol etc. I'm keen on moving my RX to ethanol as opposed to petrol, for sustainable fuel sourcing and emissions reasons, but would like to get more info on how best to apply it to a car such as mine.
Great videos, always an interesting watch. Hope you're keeping safe in these mad times.
Great video as usual. But I can't help but notice the quickjack pump and hoses in the background. I just got one and for my application I love it so far!
What about other 'external ' engine components such as fuel lines , fuel pumps, etc. especially in older cars?
He addressed that 8:00.
How about my alternator, water pump and transmission?
It kills them. Use avgas on pre-catalytic cars.
@@algrayson8965 I was wondering about my steering wheel?
@Boomkikker being serious, here, i do like the sweet corn smell...
It'd be awesome to have a modern version of this study with a direct injected motor- I'd be curious to see if there is any difference vs what I assume was either early fuel injection, or maybe even a carburetted engine. Good video, though!
I would say it would be the same otherwise they would have already done the test
Thanks a lot. These videos are all very enlightening! Have an awesome day!
Thanks Jason, this is very interesting and helpful.
In Thailand, we have E10, E20 and E85 since quite many years. I never had a problem with my Mazdas running these fuels. I tested all of them with the new Mazda 3. Power and acceleration is the same. But fuel consumption with E85 is about 27% higher. E85 is cheaper here, but at the end, the benefit was only about 7% less costs per kilometre. I stayed with E10 because E85 is not available at all gasoline stations and I didn't like to refill so often.
love to see a review on Shell V-max vs the regular shell gasoline and ware plus carbon deposits vs the 2.
I thank you for making this very informative & well done video.
Great video. In Australia I use E10 in my 2004 VYII Holden Adventra LX8 all wheel Drive. The LS1 V8 runs well on this fuel with no issues and has been for the 5 years I have had the car. With the E10 it depends on what service station you get your fuel from as to it’s Octane. I usually go for the United Fuel where the E10 is rated at 95 Octane or Mobil where their E10 is rated at 94 Octane. All others their E10 is rate at 91 Octane.
From what I've always heard the concern is less about metal parts wearing and more about the ethanol attacking the plastic/rubber parts you mentioned at the end. Id be interested in a study looking into the effects on those components
I think newer cars are made with plastic /rubber (silicone maybe?) parts that are more resistant to corrosion since they're aware most gas stations are putting in at least 10% ethanol now, so it shouldn't be a problem unless you have a classic car maybe.
Due to the hygroscopic nature of the fuel its not just in your car, its the older tanks at the service station also.
Alan Mccarthy
Storage tanks collect condensate whether or not the fuel contains ethanol. More water puddles in pure gasoline storage tanks, less in those with alcohol fuels.
@@FrankGutowski-ls8jt less water in tanks with a fuel that absorbs water. Bugger water puddles inside tanks that dont contain a liquid that mixes with water. Makes sense.
Alan Mccarthy
Some commenters suggest ethanol reaches out and grabs water out of the air, whereas it’s just encountering whatever water daily thermal cycling draws into a storage tank. I was surprised by how much water can condense in a humid climate in a container that’s not sealed. I made the mistake of not filling my gas tank and having it less than half full most of the time. It took a sizable dose of isopropyl alcohol to get it dissolved. The water was up to the bottom of the in-tank pump.
I wished they measured the amount of fuel used during the 20 hour run.
There are different grades of some of the fuels so not easy.
alcohols would use 15-30% more fuel than E10 or E0
Ethanol%34 more using than Gasoline, Methanol %120
I really appreciate the research that went into your presentation. Thank you. I rebuilt a 2010 Chevy 2.2 L Ecotec engine with VVT (Variable Valve Timing) last year. It failed due to low compression and, after disassembly , it 0 PSI compression was caused by a build up of material on the intake valve stems exactly where the injectors direct their spray. The engine has 225,000 km on it and everything else was well within spec except the timing chain and its associated parts. The failure was obviously due to the E10 fuel but with that mileage, it is pretty hard to call it a fail.
I am not a mechanic but a retired physicist so my point of view may be a little different.
I do, however, see a large fuel related failure due to ethanol in small engines, lawn mowers and chain saws, where the carburation components fail completely. This is most likely due to the corrosive nature of the ethanol. In the case of small engines, I would strongly recommend the use of non-alcohol fuel, or, at the very least, regular grade fuel that has less alcohol.
I'd love to see the same study done with a natural gas (CNG) engine :)
Please do this
If you look at heads from CNG or LPG cars they are as clean as they day they were installed after 150k. The biggest problem facing your head is un-burnt liquid fuel washing out the oil for the piston bores. This does not happen with gas fuels. Why petrol is still sold is a mystery to me...
@Blind Squid If you started using CNG/LPG to replace petrol the huge change in demand would see its price skyrocket. This is a particularly major problem when these fuels are predominantly used today for residential heating, so millions of cars switching to them would mean millions of people not being able to afford heating their homes in winter.
Also, LPG is already about the same real price as petrol. The difference in the price you pay at the pump is pretty much entirely tax. The only reason petrol is so cheap in the US is precisely because it doesn't pay that extra tax.
@@BigUriel Hi i Must correct you. But using LPG or CNG is not as heavy as you think. If you use Electricity and for that time fill your car. 4-5 kg per hour i can fill at home. For my Renault Menage 1.6 it mean per hour fling I can go 100 kilometers because it consume 4-6 kg Respectably. And it is not bad Millage. If you need average for two cars 200 kilometers per day. You only use 4 hour per day for effective heating. Trust me Electric Car is way more infrastructure Demanding Than CNG or even LPG. LPG is trash of Oil. They quite literally burning them if you do not to drive on it.
LPG is a superb fuel IMHO. Been using it for decades. The only thing you 'd better change on a modern car are the spark plugs. You may need another heat grade. Iridium or double platinum types are fine. And LPG is also much more "friendly" for the environment. :-)
Seems they didn't check the gaskets, which can dry out from to much ethanol if your car is not made for it.
The problem with ethanol doesnt lie in the engine block.... it lies with the fuel system and any rubber/man made material it comes into contact with. Additionally, I dont think we should be using fossil fuels to process millions of bushels of corn into inefficient fuel...... One would be better off feeding the rest of the world with the corn surplus and just go with gasoline. The same goes for using electric vehicles, there is absolutely no point in using an EV that get's it's power from a grid that is, for the most part, powered by coal. You are outsourcing pollution, and you are outsourcing it to a more inefficient source than you would if it were from gasoline. You also then have to factor in transmission losses.... conversion losses from heat to mechanical to electrical..... losses in charging... losses in converting all of that back into electricity and mechanical energy..... Its just a waste of time, never mind the poor chinese slaves who mine all that explosive lithium for you with polluting machinery who then ship it on cargo ships that run on diesel.
RedRyder That’s I find it funny when people thought electric is going to be the future lol
Not the focus of the study.
I would love to see a study on Ethanol wear in marine applications. This study has stated /demonstrated higher water content in the oil. I know that many marine gas stations have gone back to pure gasoline probably for this reason.
It's not the water that's the problem.
Slight water content is actually a fantastic thing for your engine. Water is incompressible, but when it's very little, it steams off, removing carbon deposits.
The real issue is marine stuff is very often sold at a price that is significantly higher than automotive parts, but they use the old rubbers to save the manufacturer money (and guarantee return business) and many marine applications use aluminum fuel tanks for weight savings. These are the issues. Crap parts, incompatible chemistries with the fuel tank.
@@jimmio3727 ethanol is crap
Also the 'best use before ' date for E10 is 3 months and E5 6months.
If you want to keep it for longer you'll have to seal the fuel container airtight and preferably use a conserving additive.
Great info...thanks. Any idea(or video)as to whether or not adding acetone to gas increases fuel mileage?
I'd be curious how this same test, performed with modern engines that generally are turbo charged small displacement, would perform. If it would be any different.
Everytime I use 10% ethanol I get at least 1 - 2 mpg less then when I use straight unleaded gas ! And I do track it !
@midnitesquirldog1 lol, over reacting much.
well naturally, ethanol simply has less energy density. Not really much issue except when the gas companies charge the same amount for E10 as 100% Gas, even though ethanol is cheaper thanks to gov subsidies.
@@falconerd343 e10 is about 10% cheaper here. For regular cars it is a perfectly fine alternative imho.
@midnitesquirldog1 Car dealers do NOT love it. I work at a dealer and the jobs we want are quick and easy service intervals, that's where the money is. Head gaskets and mechanical repairs are often a ball ache, take longer than the allotted labour time to complete and come with hidden expenses to the company.
You can get straight 87 octane gas? or are you comparing E10 87 octane to 91 octane premium gas without ethanol?
Thank you 🙏 for sharing your findings with us. Regards from Gordon in the U.K. 👍
Thank you for the explanation. Well said. Keep up the good work.
Ive never really worried about engine wear. I just think it burns out O2 sensors faster, thats what I want to know.
It is true that it's fine for cars. You did mention the main issue, but kind of brushed by it.
Ethanol is very bad for small engines. It's fine to run them with an ethanol blend, but due to the nature of how many small engines are used, they often sit for a decent amount of time without use. The absorption of water and separation is pretty harmful for small engines.
I have never met a company that chooses to use ethanol mix gas for chainsaws and similar equipment. Gas without is often 30% more expensive, but it's judged that the reduced maintenance issues from buying ethanol free makes that cost worth it (buying more new saws, and putting more repairs into already owned saws adds up). The only companies I am aware of that use ethanol mix are extremely unprofessional in other regards as well
I ain't no scientist, but this is the general industry consensus. It's more economical to buy premium gasoline for small engines, vs buying ethanol mix and spending more on repairs and replacement.
Nice video, also you could have mentioned influence of ethanol on rubber seales in engine and fuel system. Is there a test where is compared wear on naturally aspirated engine vs turbo engine with same power output?
Thanks for this video. In the UK, we have just been converted to E10 now.
1) no increase in wear
2) decrease in deposit
3) increased water content in oil
AND
4) different energy Is released by combustion of different fuels. You should not pay the same price at the pump.
@@bundeswehr7676 I don't know where you live, real gas is generally not available where I am: Ontario.
Ruben Borges ...Ok..I live in North East Tennessee. 100% gas is here, you just gotta look for it. Luckily my neighborhood gas station has it...
@@rubenmborgesmusic, you got that right. Had a Ford f150, with 90 liter tank could do 750 km/ tank. Drove doun to Florida did 900 km one tank full. The energy content is different.
Also, I noticed the rip off at the pump, I had 80 km to empty fuel consumption indicating and fill up 98 liters on a 90 liter tank.
They generally take 10 percent, doesn't matter where you fill up in Ontario.
@@rubenmborgesmusic In Canada, almost all regular unleaded fuels are a blend of 10% ethanol and almost all premium unleaded fuels are straight gasoline, without any ethanol.
E10 is cheaper..
How about the energy density of the different fluids and the engine consumption ? Was that tested? You spoke about the reduction but not about a factor of impact
Thanks for the video, clear and concise!
Its 2021 and the UK is going from E5 to E10, this video has so much good info..
I have a 1991 Nissan Hardbody pickup and I noticed that running E10 I would get 17 mpg city, but if I ran E0 (100% gasoline) I get 20mpg city. Which is in line with EPA estimates for the year. Highway mileage experienced a similar drop in mpg.
The worst thing you can do with an older vehicle that has E10 in it is not drive it often.
I saw a similar fuel economy loss in my 2004 Dodge Caravan, 2005 Navigator, and 2004 Hyundai XG350L. E10 was consistently 3mpg less than straight unleaded.
which would be in line with the lower BTU ratings of the fuels. Lower BTU - lower energy - have to burn more to make the same horsepower.
That is correct as Ethanol has less energy density per liter/Kg when compared to gasoline.
Yep, I only use non-ethanol in my 93 Honda. It cost a bit more, but the MPG makes it more than worth the slightly extra costs. Not to mention being better on the 25yo fuel system that was never designed for ethanol
My results are similar, about 10% worse fuel economy with E10 compared to 100% gasoline. So that would mean the 10% ethanol in the blend produces ZERO energy, while the 90% gasoline produces all of the energy.
Here in france e85 is a third of the price of regular gasoline. Lots of people a running e85 with : Nothing (they mix or they risk), they remap, they install a flexfuel kit or the do some fueling mods such as injectors.
A guy I know has a citroën saxo vts which has 580 000 km with 300 000 km on e85 with only biggers injectors.
Very informative! But my main problem with E10 fuel is the damage it causes to carbs,rubber,plastic components.dont forget the short shelf life it has(2 months).after that it starts converting into a varnish that ruins carburetors.
Thank you very mutch for making this Video!
Super great info
I'm surprised it's not brought up more but a notable advantage of the ethanol blend is that it lowers the freezing point of the water that gets mixed up in the fuel (believe me, it's in there) so it helps make sure you don't freeze your fuel lines in the winter (cold climate specific advantage). Winter fuel additives used to be a thing in Canada and I don't even see them sold in gas stations anymore now that E10 is the norm.
Instead it will turn into physical obstructions that block orifices in carburetors making your rarely used engines require insane amounts of maintenance
@@ZealothPL who uses a carbureted engine for anything now ?
@@ranger4972 they're pretty common in used motorcycles that rarely get ridden and require insane amount of maintenance thanks to ethanol fuels fouling up their carburetors.
Evidently you don't mow your lawn or use a snow blower
@@edblevins681 I live in the city. I have a shovel, snow tires and an electric mower.
When I purchase gasoline I want gasoline not filler. If I wanted ethanol I should be getting a price reduction on sub par fuel. Think about it, the fuel refiners are making a killing on these blended fuels selling them as gasoline, it has nothing to do with the environment but their bottom lines.
Blame the corn lobby. An unholy union of hippy environmentalists and corn states with 2 senators each. There you go.
@@lashlarue7924 Never mind that making ethanol from corn is not really saving the environment.
Thank you for the informative video. As always enjoyed all your videos. What about methanol injection? Will the amounts of methanol be big enough to cause wear and oil dilution?
Very informative, this! I find it quite interesting that ethanol does not cause any noticeably adverse effects on the internals of a car engine, and this is from the established research of 1981. I remember a lot of scare-stories involving gasohol back in the day, and I was expecting to see the same thing with the mandatory reinstatement of gasohol. But it is good to know that gasohol will not actually cause any noticeable damage to an engine's innards (well, unless the -hol is METHanol, that is). Of course, then that begs the questions about overall energy efficiency and any adverse effects on the fuel-delivery systems, and this video does confirm those concerns: Ethanol does not produce the same BTUs gasoline does (ergo, from an energy-output perspective, less efficient as a fuel), and its alcohol nature can corrode carburetors.
So, bottom line for me is, I am actually doing my car (which is as old as I am) a service overall by identifying and utilizing pure-gasoline outlets...but in a pinch, using occasional gasohol will not strand me.
From personal testing some years ago I found that the price for e10 needed to be about 3 cents cheaper than unleaded (at Aussie $ 1.25/litre) to make up for the efficiency loss. But there is normally only a 1c difference in the price.
All you need to do is increase the amount of oxygen in the mix.
If you fill something with E10 that is used on a regular basis it’s no big deal. It’s the things that are used sparingly like collector cars and small equipment (especially 2 cycle) that gets wrecked when the ethanol breaks down and attracts moisture into the fuel system and it gets a big gulp of water when you start it.
The issue with 2 strokes and E10, is a weird one.
If you premix, which most of us do, you have a
mixture of 3 things, oil, ethanol, and gasoline.
Now, let's add water. Almost instantly, we get
a phase shift, the oil and gas will separate out
from the water and alcohol. BOTH will run the
engine, but only one will provide lubrication.
steve
If the Ethyl alcohol in the petroleum blend, "absorbs" water from humid air, then that absorbed water will burn as it becomes tempered alcohol. Like 80proof booze vs 60proof. Both still will get you there, but 60proof or "Scotch and Water" will take you longer than straight Scotch at the same volume. I used to have a lot more problems on Mobile Bay with a lawnmower and pure gasoline. Mow and put it up on 1/4 tank, humidity gets in, condenses, gasoline isolates it to a bottom layer, damned thing won't start next week.
So Ethanol that has not already been saturated with water, will mix with humidity better than gasoline. If your tank is vented and gravity fed (small motorcycle or mower) then the rule is keep it full till end of season then store it completely dry. If you have a petcock then it is easy to drain through the reserve setting.
If humidity gets into your tank above the fill line, it will condense when the temperature drops. Thus you notice water in your fuel in the hot day, cool nights months. Physics and chemistry, vs anecdotal guessing.
Obvious solution: drive your collector car more often! :-)
Enthusiasts Garage
Ethanol does not break down. Ever see a bottle of 25 yr old Scotch? Ethanol does not attract more water to a fuel tank than pure gasoline. It dissolves more water because it is both hydrophilic and soluble in gasoline.
Muskoka Mike
Too bad you deleted the FYI about alcohol vs ethanol. You must have confused one name with methanol or possibly denatured alcohol. Anyway, don’t quit your day job. You’re no chemist.
I have a 25 year old bottle of Southern Comfort with a pour spout. None has evaporated. Alcohol does not decompose by oxidization or polymerization in the presence of oxygen.
Dude, you're an awesome teacher as well, and this video helped me a lot (you have no idea), I'm a beginner in researches and I've done one about IC engines working with alternative fuels, and this document that you're using as a reference was all that I need. Thank you so much, and keep with this channel, the channel that every engineer should watch.
They did a spectrometric oil analysis on the oil. The same thing i used to collect an oil sample for every time i parked the F-15 i crew chiefed from both Pratt &Whitney PW100-F100 fighter jet engines.
I used e85 for the first time in my flex fuel Ford ranger. I was surprised to see that my check engine light for my O2 sensor had shut off. Also I can feel a dramatic difference in throttle response. I haven't tried it in the winter yet, but so far I'm sticking with e85 24/7.
The short guide to ethanol: More power, less mileage, won't start in winter.
Your ecu has to run with e85 to "learn" the fuel... Just give it a few days, or mix it with gas and increase e85 along time
I'd like to see the same comparison done with a year's worth of cold starts and short trips. I'd bet that'd be an eyebrow raiser!
Have been using E10 for the last twelve years in our Suzuki Alto mostly short trips has only done 50,000kl. in that time no problems at all.
Canadian Mohawk 90 grade with ethanol kept my spark plugs way cleaner in my old oil burner 390 Ford wagon in which I was running 20/50 oil. I changed the plugs often and the difference was astounding. A little bit of ethanol definitely eats cylinder deposits.
Best review i have seen on these fuels, 👍👍
Great video as always, but honestly I thought we'd put this to bed years ago; even the people who say it'll damage the car are usually talking about fuel hoeses and pumps and such. But yeah, modern cars like 99% on the road are fine, which is why they can sell it everywhere.
What I'd really like is an environment impact vid of E10, because seemingly even governments can't agree on whether the real world impact of E10 is lower or higher pollution and "bad" emissions - some say that because the E10 emits less CO2 total emissions are cleaner, others that that's offset by the lower fuel economy and people seem to quote different examples of how switching to ethanol fuels in a region either improved or worsened emissions there. In fact there's so much politics behind it it's pretty hard to google a definitive.
Great question and something worth looking into further!
Great video, let's not forget what Ethanol does to rubber hoses and full-tanks on bikes. I only run ethanol free gas in my cars and bikes.
Where do you buy pure gasoline?
Some stations advertise it ( at least in my area ). Around here, the 91 octane is *sometimes* pure gas, other stations its the 85 - so you have to read the pump.
In my neck of the woods it's advertised as "recreational fuel", intended for small engine vehicles and marine use. I use it in my lawn equipment as it is supposed to help keep the small carb bits from getting clogged with gunk.
What?
You probably shouldn't be sniffing gas.
Great explanation, analysing engine wear is the best approach out there.... great work....
E10 and E15 also prevent detonation (pinging) in older cars. I drive a 1964 Rover 2000 TC that stock is 11:1 compression ratio. When unleaded fuels were first mandated (1970s) even the highest octane rated fuels pinged until I found one station in my area that had E20 and that did the trick.
Perhaps you could do a video on the impact of alcohol on different old (carbureted) and new (injected) engine fuel systems? I notice when pulling apart small engine carbs the regular e10 gas leaves a lot of gunk in the fuel bowl and passages.
Gasoline mixtures go bad. Gas caps must vent or fuel cannot flow into the carburetor, and as everyone should know, oxidation (exposed to oxygen) destroys everything. This is why humans can't breathe straight oxygen for very long, as it literally destroys the lungs given enough time.
There are stabilizers to prevent this from happening so fast, but ideally, you want to burn that fuel within a week and run the engine until the tank and carburetor bowl is dry. Hope this helps!
My understanding is the issue with ethanol is that it's hygroscopic (attracts water) and engines more than 10 years old might be adversely affected.
I see no reason to risk it.
Edit: That's pretty much exactly what he said, lol. 😎👍
I have see a lot of problems in mostly carb engines running on e10.
Mostly rubber seals and with cars or bikes that don,t drive a lot problems with water in the feul. I run e0 102 octaan or e5 98 octaan no lower on old rides
great video and highly educational! Can you do you about E15 gas? It's coming out like wildfire in the Midwest and the debates are raging harder than ever! The public needs Facts!
Great explanation. Would you be able to do a video on how flex fuel works and how you can benefit from power gains as a lot of people are using flex fuel kits including the effect it has on pulling timing. as well methanol injection used to cool the intake rather then as a fuel and how you can benefit from both used in conjunction as I see them both used together alot with alot
Of great gains on turbo direct injection cars
Thanks love your videos
It would be interesting to see the test results today with a modern synthetic motor oil. Newer oils will handle the ethanol/methanol better and not break down as easily.
I wish there was a similar study comparing natural gas (CNG) and gasoline.
Quite an interesting set of data. Here in the UK we have just transitioned over to E10, unless you buy premium fuel which is still E5.
reason I'm looking into this is because I run old vehicles, not sure my old Landy or my Sunbeam Rapier is gonna like it
Read somewhere that a mechanic had an increase in carburettor problem's when ethanol was introduced to the market due to the water content. But thanks for the information.
Here in Brazil we have 3 fuel options: 92% hydrated ethanol, gasoline with 27% ethanol and premium gasoline with 25% ethanol. Most of the flex fuel cars run with more HP when running with full ethanol (some with 10% more power) and the price is 60% to 70% of the basic gasoline. But the car with ethanol does something about 75% of the mpg then running with gasoline.
and E25 is VERY EXPENSIVE
Ethanol isn't as energy dense as gasoline, so it's normal it gets used up a bit faster.
E20 in the US was tested and shown to decrease MPG by 7.7%. I alternate E10 and fullgas on my 2013 Accord all the time and the noramlly don't see a difference of 1 mpg, and I normally get 39-41 on either. (yesterday was 42.5). Ethanol has 67% the energy content of gasoline. If 10% of your tank is ethanol, you'd get the 90% of energy of the full gas portion and the 6.7% in the 10% ethanol, total 96% or so total energy... that's about a 3-4% drop in total energy, and at 40 mpg, a drop of 1 mpg would be 2.5%, so it's splitting hairs. I go through almost a full 17 gallon tank every 8 days or so... mostly highway miles in suburban setting in UT county, Utah - that's where Provo is, just south of Salt Lake City...
The US Navy once said a a ethanol gasoline blend was ideal ,then recanted when the separation problems came up. Way before 1980 . But a 20 hour test is not realistic. Take a 1,000 hour test with periods of cooldow to full temperature and load and get a real indication of wear in the bottom end as well as the top cylinder area. CAT says Moo.
There was a test on youtube not sure if I can find it, 400,000 kms on E10, it was a 4wd, nothing beyond normal wear, and the engine was superclean, they opened it on the video. If I find it I will link it.
You can get around these problems by using wider fuel lines. Same solution works for bio-deasel at low temperatures.
Best Ethanol / Methanol Fuel Review ever!!! Excellent analysis and figures supported by real studies done back in 1981. Brilliant!
Great information Sir! I own and daily drive a 1993 Chevy pickup and all I have access to is 10% ethanol fuels. Is there a product that can neutralize ethanol side effects on my old fuel system? I currently run Lucas UCL every fill up but I don’t know if it’s a fighter against ethanol side effects???
Great video! Now that regular unleaded gasoline is $2.20 higher per gallon than E85 here in Southern California it’s totally worth it to buy. The E85 has 105 octane so it runs better and keeps engine clean even though it’s about 15% less fuel efficient. You should do a update to this video now that gasoline prices are soaring.
higher octane does not equal more power lol, especially on a stock tuned car. octane number is a measurement of detonation resistance.
Only for californian fools
That was very interesting to watch as usuual, thank you! And well, Cars in Brazil have been runing pure ethanol since the 70's. Our gasoline is @ 27% currently, but that should be increased soon - poor us with non-flex cars.
É verdade, broder! Erro de char
Allegedly E27. It's very common to run an OBDII tool to find it running on over 35% ethanol mixture...
I’m no mechanical engineer, but usually cars running high ethanol content tend to be performance tuned to their fuel. Majority of them are fitted with an oil management system like a catch can set up.. so moisture would be separated before returning back in the engine via intake.
Excellent presentation! Thank you 🙏
A test showing power differences between the fuels as well as mpg difference would be interesting.
Well, here in Brazil, you have a better millage with gasoline, but it's really more expensive than e100. And i think every car here gets more power with e100, the VW Polo jumps from 116hp to 128hp...
Were these tests performed using carbureted or fuel-injected engines? Were the carburetors jetted (adjusted) to run near stoichiometric for the different fuels? Running an engine too rich or too lean will have a large effect on engine wear.
In a study published in 1981? I doubt they bothered to test a fuel injected system.
It's an americam study they probably used carburators till 2010. Mid range RPM probably also means about 1500rpm.
And just to be clear using only one engine makes the whole study irrelevant because:
Version 1, the same engine for all test: the wear prozess is not linear so you got cross influences from the testing order.
Version 2, same kind of engine, but different engine: You probably got more influences from the different production qualities of the engines than the fuels.
So just do it right and use the average of a minimum of three engines for each fuel, or just stop publishing useless research papers!
I didn't look at the study directly, but when I googled "2.3L 4 cylinder 1981" it pointed me to the Ford "Lima" engine. It was carbeurated until 1984.
Absolutely right I enjoy watching you you're very smart young matches that's good work
This study was to check effect on lubricants and wear
Did they check BSFC /efficiency and the effect on fuel comsumption and emmissions.
I'm a small engine technician (had many engines aparts over the years) I have noticed engines run on ethanol blend fuel have thicker build up of carbon than engines that haven't been run on ethanol blend fuel.
Carbon is sticking to the piston crowns badly at least on the air cooled carberated engines witch can causing issues overtime.
I have older flat head engine maintenance manuals saying to pull the head of and clean out the carbon build up. (around every 200 hours)
That being said nobody does that and the prossess is made more difficult with introduction of OHV heads so I suggest running a cleaner threw small engines (around 200 hours) to prevent excessive carbon build up😉
Willy Cooke That is because you forgot to tune your car to ethanol usage. We use a electronic injector instead of carburettor though, so it allows for engine tuning.
A Couple of things that come to mind. #1, there needs to be testing done on the long term affects of ethanol on the entire fuel system ( on both newer and older vehicles). Injector seals and O rings and the gas tanks themselves. I am betting that the ethanol still erodes seals and O rings big time. I would also bet that at some point biological growth of some sort will start to happen in the gas tanks. Those can be VERY expensive issues to deal with. Personally, I just feel that ethanol was implemented in the same way that say modern wind mills and electric cars were, very haphazardly and without all the facts. While what they tell you looks great on the surface, when you look at the big picture suddenly things aren't so great.
See USPS's fleet. There won't be a longer term study than just simply looking at that.
Interesting info. How many times did they perform the same test/study and got the same results?
I would be curious to see the harm that can be caused from running E85 in a normal scenario. Not because of the abuse but because I’ve always heard the e85 has a tendency to gum up if left sit for to long. I would think that even in newer vehicles designed for E85 over time for a car that isn’t driven every day. You would get more internal damage from E85 partially clogging a fuel injector and creating a lean condition in one or more cylinder.
Good video tho. It’s good to test all scenarios to get the full aspect.
When I bought a new Mini, I was told to use high-octane ethanol free gasoline, so I did. I kind of got in a habit of buying ethanol free gas even though I traded that car in years ago. Oklahoma has become almost all QT's and all the new stores have a pure gas choice. Anyway, why can't we just use our extra corn for more bourbon. LUL!
I use the QT red handle, as well. They need a 91 option though, as they only have the 87 octane ethanol-free option.
@@howdareyu Ford recommends 87 octane for my vehicle. There's several videos on why a person should use recommended octane. Shell is where I filled up my Mini.
In Brazil cars have been running with ethanol since de oil crises in 70's, it's a more eficcient fuel, ethanol here is hydrate fuel with 4% of water and 96% of ethanol, and gasoline has at least 27% ethanol.
Ethanol is anything but efficient!
@@doorguner01 But is emission free
A machinist I worked with in the past told me about how engines that did not achieve full operating temperatures tended to gum up the valves, and cause premature engine failures.
Do you have a library -- with an index -- of your videos that we can look up a specific topic?