Is New Gucci ALREADY A Fail?! The Future of Gucci...
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- New Gucci has been ruffling some feathers and let's get down to exactly why it's rubbing people up the wrong way, but also what this means for the future of Gucci in general and was it even a good idea to rebrand Gucci this aggressively? Gucci has been on a winning streak under Alessandro Michele but this might be coming to an end...ENJOY!
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It's so tiring, brands hating the fact that people who don't own yachts are buying their products. There's been this insane price increase all over the luxury industry because everyone wants to be Hermes; of course, to some people paying 1K euros for a bag makes sense, paying 2K doesn't. Of course sales are going to be lost. Gucci had its own unique identity under Michele and they sold like crazy; both they and LV had this amazing talent of courting the aspirational client. Most likely, top Kering/LVMH executives aren't really familiar with that category, and in their circles people complain about the peasants being able to afford Gucci and LV. Those kind of people are likely to complain about Gucci being over the top, so they fire AM, hire a new designer and ask him to make Gucci boring. Newsflash: so many other brands are already doing boring, in a more consistent and credible manner. Hence, failure.
Hermes just laughing at these brands trying to be like em
eh I don't think Kering is that stupid. Can't wait to see what happens
The row/Maxmara/Khaite are not at the same HERITAGE level that Gucci is, with a hundreds-year-old history, so if they position themselves right, I think they could swoop their customers with no problem.
So they get their RTW base covered
And those customers have the means to spend on the high exotic/high-end price point too.
AWESOME, new level unlocked.
And likely the SLG/accessories category will stay what it is, aspirational for the young folk
Gucci was established in 1921, MaxMara in 1951. But Gucci was bought by big multinational company and what they want from a brand they buy is constantly growing profit. They don't mind about history or heritage and this is why some brands have become irrecognizable.
Yes! I feel luxury brands are becoming same same, neutral…. Not very ‘unique’. It’s sad really, design is supposed to be fun!
@@qwertyyxoxo Yes you nailed it there. They have to get ahead of the curve conditions have changed massively.
You are a new find and I'm obsessed (a top find of 2023) and your educational videos just speak straight to my luxurious (yet nerdy) heart ❤ 💚🤓👑
I can only imagine the product changes are based on sales data from many past seasons. For instance, it could be that the simple pieces are the true revenue drivers and they are doubling down. Loved the video as always!! xx
What a great video! It’s got me thinking all analytically on luxury fashion marketing strategies first thing on my Monday. Love it
I think this was a super fun and informative video! I love that you dug out the Gucci presentation and told us where we could find it! I went and dug it out myself. I’m not a typical Gucci consumer but i’m attracted to the Jackie bag now that I know it’s supposed to be there best offering. Possibly they’ll focus their quality assurance on there?😅 I do think you’re right though, I definitely have never identified Gucci as a quiet luxury brand and they’re moving themselves from winning at the loud luxury segment into being a newcomer in an already cramped quiet luxury segment, not a wise move.
You are so knowledgable! I love when you do videos like this or when you talk about fashion shows. I don't know anything about any of this stuff- its so fun to learn about!
When luxury spending is on a low it's probably the best time to rebuild. Wouldn't want to change much when spending is high.
I will miss A.M as the designer at Gucci . He brought so much creativity and layers of goodness. We will see where it goes ....❤ Great video !! Thanks
I was ok with Tom Ford's Gucci, I was very fond of the maximilism Gucci. Not sure what to make of the new Gucci, but not a big fan. I hope Gucci finds its footing soon. I already miss the whimsical of Alessandro, though. Who else could make the Babushka look chic. I hope he gets a new job, soon.Totally agree that sunglasses do not tie you to a brand the way a purse does. Sunglasses do not make or break a look. They are optional, noy essential
Yesssss 💖
Their prices have gone up too much to where I would rater spend the same money at a different brand.
The Gucci “tone down” is a huge mistake. They absolutely had the market on “over the top”, “unique aspirational” luxury cornered. And at price points that varied so offered something for a lot of different folks. To move away from that to jump into the boring ass kinda quiet luxury pool with all the other participants IS DUMB. They clearly wanna just fit in with the loads of others. Maybe there are a lot of shoppers out there looking for another Regular Degular over priced for no damn reason blasé brand. Nope not me. Ain’t nobody paying Chanel prices for a Jackie O bag. Chile bye.
Maybe it’s my age, but I’m loving the new direction Gucci is going in. I wasn’t into the loud somewhat tackiness these past few years gave us at Gucci. While I love my Jackie bag that came in 2020, I was hard pressed to find anything else really that suited my style. I am an almost lifelong Gucci lover and will always love Gucci but I just feel the gaudiness wasn’t really indicative of Gucci. I mean when I think of Gucci I think of Tom Ford and the sleekness, the richness of the silks and velvets in beautiful colors and the timeless designs that really you could wear now and in the future and it’s still fresh looking where as A.M gave a young, crazy, loud, circus like approach that to me wasn’t Gucci.
This may be off-topic but Gucci has a ton of products. Their website feels like a luxury Target, not in a bad way, just that they have 'too' many products for sale. Now all of these products have to be manufactured and produced which also costs the company money. I think Gucci thinks the more product we make, the more product we will sell. There is a ton of Gucci merchandise available, so much so that the Kering may be manufacturing more product than they're continually selling. The product that doesn't sell they burn or have employees deliberately destroy. I feel like Gucci has some adorable and fun pieces, and they'll always be well known enough to live off the name, but they may have to slightly scale down their operations.
Hello Cassie. Happy & blessed Monday. I love most of Gucci pieces. Yes some of the pieces missed the mark, but they can redeem themselves. Thank u Cassie for this info. Have a great day.💚💚💚.
Wishing you a fabulous week Marilyn! 💖
I'm loving the new croc designs 🐊 but I wish they offered some in mock croc to bring the prices down to earth! 🌎😅💸
I’ll be interested to see what he does with Mens as well. Great thing about Alessandro is he opened up cuckoo fashion to all genders and honestly the best point you made is that NO ONE did what Gucci was doing under him. Now… not so much.
I think Gucci has always had an interesting, quirky and loud identity. The colors and how the sometimes clash with the gaudy prints always threw me off but I gravitated to the more monotone pieces. I actually liked the gg marmont line, but they don’t know when to let a good thing go and it’s just overdone now. I almost feel like there are too many bags and too many options, I think many brands would benefit from scaling back their inventory and focusing on the tried and true classics with a couple new styles a year
as much as i love how fun gucci was, all the things i own from the house are pretty classic. does make me wish i had picked up some colorful pieces❤ idk if it will hurt them but the shows wont be as fun to watch😩
Not a Gucci person. At least the bags, they look old fashioned to me; their logo is tacky (would never buy a blazer or other textile full with "Gs".). YSL is at another level of classic modern style-timeless. And retains better its value if you plan to resell.
Hi Cassie, I think Alessandro was hired by Tom Ford back then so he had been in the brand way before 2015.
ugh i guess it’s a high time to get a gucci bag before the increase👀
Other than the green tote, has our queen Cassie owned a Gucci bag? Would love her feedback on Gucci bag quality Vs other relatively priced bags. Rehab? Never!
I think next year will be a difficult one for most people unless you belong to the Billionaire’s Club. Therefore raising prices and not having an entry level line is a mistake for 2024 ( near future). I myself I’m buying more carefully and my daughter who is starting to look into expensive items has already one of each of the bags girls her age want. Also, I am more inclined to talk to her about investment in herself not in things.
eyeshadow is very beautiful
Thank you!!
Believe it or not. I think this is a smart move for the House of Gucci. They have shifted to appease and attract a younger demographic. Im here for it . Looking forward to see what else they roll out …
Gucci bags are so meh and they're raising the price lol. No one is buying Gucci bags in a recession. They're raising the price to extract more $ out of the guillable higher income market population to make up for the losses in volume of sales overall.
i think Kering's top management doesn't like his design style, maximalism
My god you sow beutyful
New friend here sending may full support. KKUWAN
I think it’s a mistake. I don’t go to Gucci for simplicity or to be quiet. I go to Gucci to make a fabulously over-the-top statement and they always delivered.
Agreed!
I personally disagree I like their classic items like the original 1953 horsebit loafers or the original Jackie bag. Stylish items with no logos that are classic and timeless that is why I go to Gucci. I may be in the minority although occasionally I enjoy a flashy Gucci moment.
@@alejandromagana8379I actually found michele’s gucci to be really incredible. Once you get past the logomania and striped bags there are some clothing pieces that you simply just cant find anywhere they look like they came out of a historical production. I think that made it really special - bringing truly elevated and unique pieces to the table
Agreed
@@alejandromagana8379i think both customer segments exist.
The massive popularity in the past 8 years was clearly due to young people living trendy flashy gucci though
Absolutely fascinating that you were able to find Gucci's presentation! Such an intensive look into how they think we shop. I'm curious to see how new Gucci performs against their projections
I thought I’d hit the jackpot when I found it!!
I feel like the vibes are Tom ford gucci! I love the change of direction. I’m a little biased but I felt like Gucci has been a little tacky as of recently and this revamp was needed💕
💖
I was ready to say this exact thing! Good video Cassie!❤
I loved over-the-top haute "tacky" Gucci under Michele and I really, really like the muted DeSarno direction. It's the yin-yang of the brand and I'm ready for the pendulum switch.
🤩🤩🤩
Good point, what an interesting way to put it!
I enjoy the "into the weeds" style videos. Could you make more of them, please and thank you.
I shall 🫡
Cassie, I'm loving your mockneck. I love a fabulous animal print.
Gucci has really toned down and I'm not sure how to feel about it. Their last collection was more quiet luxury than the fabulousness Gucci has been the past 8-9 years. Are they trying to find themselves or going more towards minimalistic style? Personally, I think Gucci should have stayed with the over the top designs, as they were so good with that, while embracing some of the basics with minimalistic style.
I totally agree!!!
Used to be a tried and true Gucci diehard when Michele reined. Now I walk by the store and don’t even step in. It just doesn’t do it for me anymore and I’m completely unimpressed. I think the quiet luxury crowd is loving it. To each their own.
Same here
Same for me! Ever since he left I find zero appeal in the new stuff they bring out. It’s sooo boring now.
Gucci has finally gone back to its roots and are aiming again for the ultra-rich market where brands like Brunello and Loro Piana come into play, I love this approach I absolutely hated the over-the-top colors and logos now they look to aim for subtle luxury which is a niche market now but would sell more as theyll have smart pieces with less marketing and branding all over i hope LV follows suit.
I actually really like Gucci’s new direction, as someone who is always been into loud luxury. In the past 3 years, I’ve also seen myself transition more into “quiet luxury.” I find that it was harder to get dressed when wearing loud pieces and not wanting to repeat outfits. But I can still appreciate loud luxury on others.
Great video. You’re so right about their world building. You can’t just throw a 10k bag in the market and expect ppl to buy when they already future Chanel and Hermes girlies.
don’t get me wrong, I LOVE simplicity, which can be anything like Tom Ford’s sex era to The Row’s quiet minimalism. but, there was something about Michele’s complete 180 maximalist era that was so approachably whimsical that I’m still in love with. this new era in my opinion takes the worst parts of both eras (some EXTREMELY simple looks, and questionable neon green + burgundy runway styling) and combines them into something that lacks emotion and a fantasy world, like what Cassie highlighted in the BOF article
Thanks for another one of your informative deep-dives into a brand. Here is some more tea on Gucci: their new, 800M€ ginormous flagship under construction on Rue de Castiglione, corner Rue St-Honoré, 1 block from Place Vendôme is just sitting there, unfinished. In late October the Paris planning authority withdrew permission to continue. Various reasons have been given such as finding archaeological remains in the basement, building height infractions, and food safety violations for the planned restaurant.. Who knows? But Gucci’s goal to go more upscale in Paris has hit a big snag.
How can you elevate a brand by using bad bunny 🐇 and kendal girl ? I used to love Gucci not anymore…
Those two do the opposite of elevate.
Logomania BF and Quiet Luxury GF
Gucci is no longer fabulous. I've defected to Saint Laurent and loving it! xx
This is one of the points in the video!! I totally understand xx
The rubber bands on the handles turned me off Gucci!
@@ellenmerkle940 never understood their purpose
Oh the Saint Laurent cost difference 😳I agree it’s definitely a superior fashion house…
Gucci was so fun,now is the old decrepit Freda days , that shows Greed can destroy a brand , Alessandro is probably laughing right now now
I"ve honestly really loved the Gucci look this past season. Gucci in the past was wacky and whimsical but it wasn't "sexy". We're getting "sexy" and sleek Gucci which I think is nice. But I hope it doesn't last forever. You're right, Gucci is known for the fun, it should stay that. There's plenty of options (other brands) that are sleek and sexy.
For what it's worth, I actually will likely buy some of the RTW given it's much more timeless/simple in design (e.g., the tank, the hoodie) and fits my lifestyle, and I never bought anything but Alessandro bags before (and even then, it was the Marmont, which was arguably not that loud/his style)
Sabato de Sarno is literally killing the gucci heritage by making it looking like a cheep Zara collection.
Hi Cassie another informative video, I may be wrong but I feel all of the major houses are trying to be in Hermes lane and they’re all failing they just need to stay in their lane where they thrive.if all brands are in the same quiet luxury and Hermes pricing well the Hermes consumer will just buy from Hermes. From what I see the average Gucci consumer isn’t A. Wanting quiet luxury and B mostly not wanting to spend that kind of money just look at Burberry floundering searching for their new consumer.💚💚💚💚
Gucci has to go back to being over-the-top with a minimalist feel, less trendy with more statement pieces. Something that will say “I put that shit on” 😅. The prices are a problem if they want a younger consumer.
The ancora Gucci looks like Tom Ford. I miss alessandro. I liked the crazy ,70s, retro, over the top creations. Yes I like the new platforms. Yes they are using different materials like sherling and exotic. I want the old tacky 😅😅 if I wanted minimal I'd buy from bottega ,ysl etc
I hear you 🙌🏽💖
I really hope Alessandro starts his own brand, his style is sooo good.
Preach ... when allesandro left I haven't purchased 😢 since... nothing motivates
Burberry Britt Polo went from like $150 to $600. Forget that....
Definitely taken aback by the shift. BUT I have to say I’m LOVING the new travel line. I was waffling between Goyard and LV’s Macassar line for travel when I walked into Gucci a few days back and now im about 85% sure I’ll be a Gucci travel line girl. HAVE YOU SEEN THE PORTER TROLLEY!!!! Lordddd it’s gooood! I’m also obsessed with the Savoy travel line. So beautiful and classic, but i don’t see a ton of people with it like I do with LV which is a huge plus for me. So their focus on travel is a winner for me. I also LOVE the platform loafer. It was the thing that grabbed my attention on the runway. And Gucci has always done a platform SO WELL so it still gives the Gucci vibes I’m here for but in a more tailored way. So interested to see where the brand is sitting this time next year.
Very nteresting Cassie, i love how deep you analuze things, totally investigative mind👏 Now i am not a Gucci girl, i am Chanel girl, or am i 🤔🤪 lately Chanel doesnt excite me as much, but yep i still with Chanel, with now and then dipping my toes into quet luxury some pieces from the row, max mara and RL collection . Gucci it interests me their sandals or sometimes shoes, since they do make shoes moreso TTS . So yep care less if they crash and burn😳🤪😝. And no matter what they do, everything is going to crash. Economy is in a very bad shape. And its only question of time when its all goes down😱 Have a blessed day🙏❤️
I think you would make a good teacher 😅
The prices don’t seem to reflect the ‘entry’ and ‘top’ bags. marmont medium is 2,070gbp Jackie is £2,220. £150 barely makes a difference
I loved the funkiness of the brand. Not into low key
I thought that the runway was a tad boring, so I will be hanging back & waiting to purchase. Not on my radar currently! YSL & Loewe are 😃
It was lacklustre!
I 100% agree that the sunglasses market will NOT draw brand affinity. I don’t think that is a good idea for Gucci, who seeks to draw in the middle class customer base. They need more bags under $2k. Shoes may not even do it…
another well thought and reserached vlog ,,,,gucci and fendi is not fpr everyone they are different they have their own league ..but there are people who can pull them off ..unlike you who can pull off everything.
I definitely can’t pull off everything 🙈🙈
yeass you do@@CassieThorpe
I’m embracing brown. With a new brown Gucci bit bag and new brown booties.
Looking at the comments, it's so interesting because I am finally paying close attention to Gucci after this new shift when I would have never even walked into the store due to sheer sensory overload. The loudness has been toned down just enough for it to be palatable to most consumers but it's still bold enough to distinguish it from other brands. Although it seems to be disappointing old clients, I think this will play off well for them in the long run. They haven't been doing well because their customer base in Asia has shrunk so much since their serpent, bee hype days. To survive as a brand, they HAD TO pivot.
Love these intellectual brand analyses with background context, future strategy outlook, and numbers on performance+pricing. I too, like to get into the technical weeds of luxury fashion, and it’s so refreshing to find someone else who has the same level of intellectual fascination about this field - everyone I try to talk to about this either glazes over in the eyes or dismisses luxury fashion as a triviality. Haha wouldn’t it be lovely (and lively!) to discuss if we had more geographic proximity! 😄 But keep up these special topic analyses videos, would love to see more! 🎓👗👛👜
Quiet or loud: I’m happy “Luxury” brands are dying & more mid-range very high quality brands like Coach are thriving. Even the 6-7 figure makers are STRUGGLING in almost every country and opting out of this. Brands are either becoming so basic that ppl opt for a good quality, affordable basic OR the styles are so ostentatious and not practical(and I’m not just talking about everyday use) that ppl wouldnt dare spend their money on something so useless and impractical. Not to mention quality is taking a nose dive straight to hell…
I under your point of View, But in my opinion Tom Ford Gucci made the most sense. Alessandro was showing the same 70's look to people who was born in the 90's and thought he was reinventing the wheel of fashion. Who is going to buy a $5000 jacket that look like it was created by Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey circus. Tom Ford made Iconic Pieces that you could have in your closet for decades..( The Red Velvet suit)
What collections? Collection is an illusion for art fans. Go to any of the stores, Burberry still has A TON of old stock, including that TB print, Gucci has been selling same bags that came even before Alessandro. Sure, they are trying the hype, but classics will always sell well, the rest will be a spur of the moment and that is it. Personally, while I did have some Alessandro items, they never worked for me as well as some of the boring things did, and I don't experiment anymore. This stuff plays into it well. Now, will I buy gucci, when I can get the same thing for next to nothing, just to get the logo? No.
IMO Gucci has finally become wearable again. I wasn't interested in walking around like a parrot. Those gray jumpers and jackets will be sold out in minutes.
I think that Gucci is going hard for Gen Z, everything has to be minimalistic and perfect to show on TikTok. I personally don`t like that Gen Z way of life but I won`t be surprised if Gucci is going to be successful with that strategy
Timely video Cassie!! I just bought the Gucci Heart bag over the weekend as my Christmas present and I am hoping they release a pink metallic version for lunar new year/valentines 🩷 I also hope they don’t veer too far into the quiet luxury realm because I go to Gucci specifically for the loud/weird/quirky pieces. There was some interesting finishes, iridescent leathers, lots of colourful shearling, and a really good range of entry bags that are less than $2000 in the monogram canvas. Well all have to keep our eyes on Gucci over the coming months
Gucci had no option but to change radically. The market that previously existed has shrunk. Young people who were their major brand market have largely moved over on to either no logo or low statement. China which was their biggest market has changed radically and the status symbols and whacky youthful defiance just doesn't fly anymore.
It's not going to thrive in these circumstances and it has to have a redirection.
Over time it will survive but Gucci has been a marketing phenomenon and that market has changed. It's trying to get ahead of the curve instead of slowly declining. The shift to exotic skins makes sense because it's quiet luxury the brand isn't plastered all over it. The Jackie bag, the hobo are classics and this makes sense too.
I would rather bring back Gucci by Tom Ford. It felt like luxury from the materials to the aesthetic. It was dark, sexy and decadent. With Alessandro Michele there were some stunning pieces dotted into the circus but outside of that the aesthetic was more like Helen Keller in a thriftstore.
I rather look like I combine business with pleasure. Gucci is like a fresh cymbidium orchid in a vase on a glass table next to a line of coke. Dangerous and sexy.
Alessandro Michele was rather like one of those glittery succulents left from Christmas at Walmart sale section or dusty fake flowers in a mexican souvenir ashtray.
It looks completely boring. I was so happy about the marmont loafer and purchased a number of colours, the menswear that could easily double as womenswear. It was exciting under Michele. Now I look at the current offering and it offers no inspiration. Who is still buying the dionysus ?
There's a fine line between adventurous and ridiculous. Wearing a leopard print catsuit is adventurous and fun. Adding fuzzy cat ears makes it look ridiculous. In the past year or two Michele has been adding the fuzzy cat ears trying to outdo himself.
Ok but this sounds an awful lot like Hedi’s first collection at Celine….
Granted, Hedi’s career was at a different place coming in than Sebato’s, but other than that you could easily be talking about the transition from Phoebe instead of Alessandro, from both the creative and commercial side. That first
Celine collection was not particularly well received and look where they are at now. Think we need to give Sebato another season or two to build the world of his Gucci to get a full idea of the vision.
This is also maybe a good time to mention that basically ever Alessandro collection looked the same, thematically speaking. You could mix any looks into any of the other collections and not take a second look. Now I loved those looks and collections, dont get me wrong, but gets a bit old after a while, especially from the commercial side.
When I think of Gucci, I think of loud. That’s what I love about Gucci. The pieces I love and wear a lot are louder - GG cardigans or bags with monogram and red and green. If I want something simpler, Gucci is not my choice. So I’m interested to see what happens here.
Quiet luxury will be the death of craftsmanship… there’s only so many ways to make a plain trench coat, a blazer and a crisp white shirt… Fashion is becoming boring.
Small side comment, Alessandro was designer for Gucci for 20+ years, he was just promoted to Creative Director in 2015 👍🏻
7:20 no Slimane, but Vaccarello :), but I noticed that as well, seems like the shoemaking last is exactly the same
New Gucci is meh yes it’s commercial but its nothing special, and i think alot of brands are pricing out costumers more and more .
Also about the glasses as an entry level why do they think glasses count as an entry level its just as you said they dont feel like it is and what’s more interesting is that lvmh also just acquired a glass manufacturer or something of that sort and they also are moving to the direction of glasses as an “entry level item” allegedly 🧑🏻💻
I STOPPED SHOPPING AT GUCCI , COMPLETE FAILURE WITH SABATO
I wish they hired another creative director like Dior they have 2 creative director Gucci is a big Brand they everything they did is becoming over saturated if they hired 2 creative director we gonna see 2 different era style fashion
This is a good point!
I think people are underestimating the effect of all the price increases and the frequency of them. Some of us are out or disgusted for a season.
7:26 - did you mean Anthony Vaccarello? Hedi hasn't been at YSL for circa 7 years now
I think you're bang on with the sunglasses not engendering a love for the brand... i think they're making a big mistake!!
Simple, and simple and exotic will always work.
Great and super interesting discussion Cassie!!!!!!! As always on point. Agreeing on all points. I have never been interested in Gucci but I acknowledged them for what they did. But now it’s just like you say. Washed out Gucci not really standing out from the other quiet luxury brands you mentioned…
Look, when your big release is a pair of sneakers/trainers you know you’ve reached peak ratchet.
Gucci is the brand of gangs and drugdealers. They’re the brand that gets you robbed in the city. I regret my gg marmont belt forever but atleast I didnt get a bag 😂
Excellent deep dive on Gucci as it relates to their market segment. Love your channel. Thank you. ❤
Has anyone else put 1+1 higher profits and lower quality control issues in right in front of our eyes.
I love your channel.... terrible without allesandro no magic 🎉 anymore ... and today was gucci first men show since the departure of allesandro... and very very lack luster
I think the excitement is gone along with Allesandro Gucci has become so mediocre.
Me , I went to Gucci for the Dionysus and their horse-bite line…. Lol I love the new line tbh
I think the article was spot on. To me, Gucci was a brand with a strong presence. I didn't always like what they did, but I always thought they were "designer" in the sense that someone actually thought about the product and didn't just slap a logo on a rectangle bag. (Or worse, not even a logo, just a rectangle bag.) There are so many places to get that "could have been from Walmart, could have cost someone's rent" look that there's no incentive to go Gucci. Also, there's no shortage of young professionals looking to prove themselves financially successful with status symbols, so I would think the new money market should be quite lucrative, if less respectable or whatever.
Gucci went from interesting and fab to boring and drab. Shame!
in case you didnt know, i keep learning on every video! i really like your analysis and how you connect the dots and everything.. keep it up Cassie because your channel is a priority to me
Anthony Vaccarello is with Saint Laurent
New Gucci is not exciting at all.
recession inflation insecurity + capitalism = kills creativity
Just watched The Row video and I wonder if that is what it is chasing.