I stayed the entire 25 minutes for a book review of a book that I knew I never wanted to read. Really, well done, Olly. Nice job. I Hope you read something fluffy and cute after it. - 📚MJ
This is probably my favorite video of yours, very well-presented and thought out. I am also thankful that you put a small bit of reading stress to bed for me. Delany's "Dahlgren" is one of my absolute favorite novels, and I have been thinking about "Hogg" for a long time, wondering if I should read it because I love Delany's other work and because I am something of a completist when it comes to my favorite writers, or if I should leave it alone due to its subject matter. I think I'll skip it, based on this review.
I still don't know if I'd actually read this book - again, the question is always "why would I subject myself to this?" But your video was very interesting and definitely gave me a different perspective on it.
I am a huge Delaney fan (I think his book Dhlagren is likely to be seen as one of the great classics) but I could not read this. I tried, but I did not get far. Like you I really struggle to understand why he even wrote it.
I appreciate your videos because I’m interested in disturbing books in theory, but I have no desire to read them in reality. I have nightmares already, I don’t need to read something that’s gonna give me constant new ones.
Kudos to you for writing such an objective and thoughtful review on such extraordinarily difficult subject matter. While I do enjoy books with disturbing or dark topics, I think this is certainly one that I will skip.
This is the kind of book that makes me wish you could sell "used" ebooks, that's the easiest way to get stuff like this but then you're stuck with it forever. I know my e-library is already deeply tainted, but I don't like adding more filth to it.
@@1WEareBUFO1 Buti don't want to own "The Man of the House Meets the Easter Bunny" forever just bc I read it once as a joke. (Yes that's real and yes it's gross lol)
As an airport employee I recommend picking up a pulp, manga, or novella at a local comic book or regular bookstore for your carry on. Something light and easy to read while waiting for take-off. Not a big fan of airport bookshops, since they nothing but Crihton and King.
Fascinating. No idea how looking for a Gene Wolfe audio book brought me to this video, but this was a genuinely interesting watch. The book is absolutely not for me, but I think you raise a lot of interesting points about the motivation. I think there is also a big disconnect between fiction/ fantasy and real life that many find impossible to surmount. This, coupled with the understandable revulsion many feel about extreme topics such as abuse, lead many to say something is bad and wrong because they don't like it and for it to happen in real life would be awful. This doesn't have to be the case. I believe the leading research and experts reiterate that fantasy and fiction do not have causation with real acts, but there is the inability for some to hear this and only to focus on correlation. Anyways, great video and thanks for discussing a book I would never want to read, but find fascinating.
Hi Olly, it was written in 1969 but not published until 1995 after some rewrites so even until recently (1995 is recent to me!) Delaney must have still thought it had important things to say, which I find very interesting. and the word you where looking for is coprophagia - which my spell checker refuses to acknowledge, big fat red line under it even though it is spelt correctly. Now THAT I find very interesting! It's almost as if by denying the word the act cannot exist.
@@CriminOllyBlog I just can't. I watched the movie American Crime which is probably the mildest version of that story and I couldn't take it. I'm not sure why it affects me so badly. Of course it's horrible but I watch/read a lot of horrible stuff lol I just can't do that one.
I was off UA-cam for a bit so I'm coming late to the party here, lol, but I just wanted to say I think you hit the nail on the head about the purpose of this book. Its literary merit lies in the fact that his purpose in writing it was to gain more mainstream acceptance for homosexuality and homosexual erotica in the pornographic "mainstream". He never shied away from erotic content, especially later in his career, and I think his resentment and anger (justified) was festering within him. This book was practically an act of sexual exorcism. It is disgusting, repetitive and filled with transgressive material, but I think it was like a boil he felt he had to lance. You put it perfectly. This is a book more people should be aware of, even if few of them read it. Thanks for devoting your time to it so some of us don't have to, lol. Also, if you like the whole "Cursed film" trope (moving on to your book from the shelves), "Experimental Film" by Gemma Files is a great supernatural detective story involving a lost, supposedly cursed film with a truly creepy folk horror bent. Love the channel!!
Thanks Margaret, and apologies in taking a while to get to this comment. Really glad you thought I got it right in the review. I've heard so many good things about Experimental Film - it's definitely on my list to get to at some point!
Wow.... That was SO interesting.... I am definately gonna pick up that book 😍 Sound like an absolute nightmare to read..... Pheeew..... Thanks.... A LOT ❤️
I’ve always been able to separate the art from the artist, could listen to a Micheal Jackson tune without thinking he’s a kiddy fiddler, which he probably was. I think that disconnect means I can just about read anything without being mortified. The key for me is does the story move, not where it goes particularly. Another great vid. A lot of sci fi writers have very dodgy pasts though..
I am not one of those people that corrects people especially over trivial spelling, pronunciations or periods of time especially if they are only off one or two or more years but I believe the book came out in 1994/1995 and not in 1969 which is considerably and specifically 25 years later than you mentioned which are totally different times and environments in America between 1969 and 1994/1995…But I have read Delany and Dhalgren and Babel-17 are my favorites…Never read this one and not sure I want too…I am not prudish in any way just it will take me being in the right mindset to digest a book with this content…Thank You for the video and keep up the good works 👍🏻
I think the first time I heard about Hogg was in a J.G. Ballard interview where he praised it. I get your read about closeted Delany using the novel to take a swing at cultural norms. It's also interesting that Delany was hiding within a cultural norm of being married (given, an open marriage) to a woman and had a baby daughter when the book was coming together in the 1970s.
Readers should also consider that this book was written in 1973, a time whi h many readers don't understand. It was very different from today, especially when it comes from what was and wasn't a transgression at the time -- such as pornographic films, which were just starting to gain cultural acceptance and were certainly not what they have become in this internet age (they were far more erotic, with stories, and were primarily in movie theaters. The porn of the 70s and early 80s certainly "moved the needle" when it comes to depictions of sex in movies.) I think, too, that understanding the times in which Hogg was written, as well as when 120 Days of Sodom and The Story of the Eye were written, give the stories greater depth and understanding than the superficial "it was gross" analysis. Since Delaney also wrote non-graphic sci-fi and speculative fiction, one might even place Hogg in the speculative fiction category. If I were to delve further into the philosophical aspects of Delaney's era, as well as the writing of Foucault on sexuality, and put it together with my knowledge of the 42nd St -Times Square sexual circus of the 70s and 80s, I might be able to tell you what Delaney was aiming for with this novel. Or one of my porn scholar friends might know. But, these days I dont care to wrap my head around that stuff. Too busy reading about Putin's rise to power. That alone is scary enough!
This is a fascinating discussion. I think you might have something about moving the line in people's minds. And it is a good point I wish more people understood. Why should people care if it is two consenting adults.
I haven't read the book, I had to take a peek about its contents. I'm a lawyer currently practicing Civil Rights Law in NYC however we are a nation turning more violent everyday. I do hold several degrees, one being in psychopathology and practiced a different law previously. I was never a defense lawyer, although those that are don't ever want to handle these cases. I think people read books of this nature to come to terms with evil. They know it exists, but does it really exist on this level? Is it really possible? What drives a person? Rape...how can there be ANY defense? Its not about sex. Rape is about power. This is the most primal example. Torture, bodily fluids and materials are unimaginable to the majority of people but it comes from a dark place in a person's psychological make-up. However it doesn't give the right to commit crimes as other live normal lives and come from heinous backgrounds. I love horror movies and horror books but not with children or animals being hurt or rape, or gratuitous sex. I want a scare but not to be traumatized, I am daily in reality.
First video of yours alive seen, popped up in my feed. No desire to ever read this, not even out of curiosity, but really enjoyed your thoughts and moving on to binge your videos lol
I read Delaney’s absolutely fantastic science fiction books before (albeit VERY hesitantly) picking up Hogg and I couldn’t help but feel as if I was being transported into another world again, but one whose morals were the complete opposite of ours. I’m not sure if this was a coping mechanism on my part lol that was just how I processed it. The world of Hogg was THAT alien to me in terms of how nonchalantly depraved it is.
The difference between gay sex and the rest of the book is that gay sex between two consenting adults isn’t violent. Books like this didn’t normalize it. I sincerely hope none of the rest of the book “becomes a little more normalized.” Violent rape, incest, and pedophilia should never be normalized. It has no place in this world. The author lived with a hellscape in his mind, each story a deep jagged scar. I can’t imagine the damage you do to yourselves reading these books. How can you heal from that?
I am Asher Farlow, I am a Transgressive author. This genre can be meld into pornography, erotica, horror, dystopia, adventure, many many things including grimdark. I am very careful about walking a thin lime between realism and extremism. I do not wish to shock people but to be as raw and real as possible depending on what the situation is I never hold back the content but the wording mustn't ever cross the line into absurdity or evil.
I've read some of Delaney's SciFi, I was actually unaware of Hogg, I don't think I'll be adding it to my TBR. I found your insight interesting, particularly the idea that his reason for writing transgressive stuff was to deliberately push the envelope. I think being so over the top might actually have the opposite effect. Wedding things that were on the cusp of becoming socially acceptable with things that would cause most readers to throw their hands up in disgust, might actually cause society to move the window in the other direction. In contrast something like the work of James Baldwin, another black gay author who wrote a lot about complex bisexual and gay characters with what was then considered explicit scenes would move the window by degrees in the right direction.
@@CriminOllyBlog I generally avoid hardcore horror. I can barely handle reading a book like The Painted Bird, or perhaps I just need a heavy dose of camp to digest anything too graphic. I do love grand guignol Italian giallo films, so maybe it is a matter of taste(lessness). ;)
Went searching online for Throat Sprockets - only two copies in all the world to be found, both priced over $200. Makes me want to read it more! Too bad.
Wow - looks like I was lucky to grab mine when I did then. I find setting up a saved search in eBay is often the best way to get rare books affordably. A cheaper copy usually turns up eventually
Thanks for sharing. I won’t be reading it but it’s interesting to hear about without having to immerse yourself in it. On your random book from the shelf you mentioned ‘cursed film’ which immediately put me in mind of Marisha Pessl’s ‘cursed director’ book Night Film well worth a look if you have the time. Which I’m sure you don’t 😊.
Listening to your review you said that the gay sex is consensual but the sexual violence is reserved for women. Enough women are already victims of sexual violence in the real world writing about it and saying you are pushing the boundaries is despicable
I think that’s a fair point, but the book is really complex and I might have over-simplified the way consent is discussed in the book. Honestly you could make a 4 hour video about Hogg and not cover everything.
I can't remember who said it, but someone once said that the distinction between pornography and erotica was that porn also set out to disgust as well as titillate. As for 101 Days of Sodom, it's like much of 18th century French pre-revolutionary porn in that it mixed sex with ideology. There'd be pages of the sexually liberated heroines enjoying themselves in the boudoir, mixed with explanations of revolutionary politics. HOGG is clearly something that Delaney wanted to get out of his system, but I'm not convinced it was advocating for gay acceptance based on its inclusion with the really 'orrible stuff in the rest of the book.
Whenever I want to read books like Hogg, there’s a problem kind of bothers me: English is not my first language. I can read English just fine, but read English gonna take more effort. As a result, the content I read gonna rub much deeper whether I wanted or not. To read a slasher book is one thing, but to read truly disturbing books is totally another. I just can’t find a way to fix this problem (plus books like Hogg won’t get translated into my first language due to the nature of the content😑).
@@CriminOllyBlog It’s like looking things through magnifying glass, or watch something in slow motion or close-ups. Sometimes you just won’t want to watch something that closely. On the other hand, certain descriptions won’t trigger raw emotions for me when it’s in English, like cursing or certain foul language, it will be processed as A word not THE word 😂
Why do you read these books? What is it that attracts to this genre? No criticism, I'm genuinely curious. I tried to read 120 Days of Sodom, but I didn't finish, purely because it was so repetitive I found it boring and tedious. I don't read books about serial killers, because I feel tainted by their stories. I realised years ago, when my sister loaned me a book about Fred and Rose West, and I couldn't get past the first paragraph. (My sister thought that was hilarious). Do you feel that all of the depravity in the books you talk about leave a mark on the reader? Do you think they raise questions and issues that people need to think about? Do you feel this kind of literature has intrinsic value because it makes readers think? I have no idea why your review of de Sade's book came up in my recommended, but I'm so glad it did. I thoroughly enjoy your reviews and listening to your thoughts on the books you read. Thank you xx
Thank you! Really glad you're enjoying the channel. I did make a video about the "why" question a while ago ua-cam.com/video/d9oVHD6PGqM/v-deo.html I'll also be reflecting on it more, and the concept of desensitisation, in a future video
Wow. As someone that balks at even seemingly, well a lot less Godawful scenes, but still the worst something like a James Herbert book has to Offer I couldn’t even imagine reading something like this.
I found this book on Amazon. In the reviews everyone expressed it as nauseating, grotesques and explicit. I really want to buy it but by those reviews I’m afraid.
Have you ever read Coldheart Canyon by Clive Barker? Nowhere near as weird as this book you reviewed, but pretty crazy! Check it out if you haven’t read it! Carol
So, I started this video then stopped it and went to my favorite ebook site and found a copy of Hogg (and later Cows and Story of the Eye) and started reading so I could compare my reaction to yours. I made to about 55% of the book, gave up and am wondering WTF is this book is about,? Where was this story going? Or, is there, in fact, a story there? Is it just to shock and disgust? If so, then I have to agree with Calvin of "Calvin and Hobbes" in that "Just because you've evoked a reaction doesn't mean that you've made a statement."
Oh Olly... I do hope this is the last time you will talk about this book. I wished you had uttered the punchline in the video: It's all right! (Let this be the last time I do those keystrokes!)
When I imagine being gay in a society of people to whom my rather innocent nature is seen as pure evil, I understand the desire to show them what pure evil actually looks like. Perhaps not to move that line but to highlight where it truly lies and where it does not.
A used copy of Heather Lewis’ “Notice” just sold on eBay for $635. I think you’re the cause of the whopping price increase-you should get a commission!
Lordy! Two and a half minutes of listening to waffling and disclaimers and repeated statements it’s a “difficult book” before even getting into it was enough to make me abandon this installment. Either just come out and say what you’re going to say or let it go and move on to another book. I’ll be back for your next video.
I read this book in 11th grade and it was almost tedious in it's grossness so I did have trouble finishing it but anyone who sees it as an easy read is creepy
Yours was a well-reasoned, sound hypothesis about the author’s likely motivation. And thanks for the overview- I feel sufficiently cautioned to absorb the lesson without undergoing the ordeal of consuming the tale.
This book actually seems rather compelling even despite the insanely graphic depictions of sex, violence… seems Delaney had something important he wanted to say. I think you nailed it! He wanted to break apart the Hetero-normative narrative. Good review Olly. Extreme transgression. I’ll probably have to read it before I’m through… don’t know if I can handle it, but the Chandler Morrison novel I’m reading has been super explicit and nasty in parts. I haven’t read 180 days of sodom, and the reason you mentioned here for it not being commendable as literature is precisely why I have avoided it.
@@CriminOllyBlog Ugh yea. I gave up on 120 Days of Sodom pretty early on. If Hogg is a chore 120 Days is prison labor. Also, one thing that I think would've been worth mentioning in your vid is the narrator's passive/willing involvement in the events of the novel. I'm not sure if that makes the novel more or less disturbing. While I wouldn't call it a good book it is thought provoking. In my opinion that alone gives the book value and might even be an argument against it being pornography.
Nice job, however ... I have a bookshelf of Delany, have met him briefly,. He's a brilliant, innovative and poetic writer with a wider range of interest than others. I'm straight, so at some point I could no longer identify with his characters. He grew up comfortably middle class if not higher, and although racism abounded in his formative years, he's cheerful about the larger environment of his upbringing (see his autobiography, The Motion of Light in Water). Hogg came from Delany's mind largely without the prodding of racism's sharp stick.
You say that this book was written in 1969. Interestingly, the end of June of 1969 was the Summer of the Stonewall riot, a gay bar in NYC's Village and was the beginning of Gay liberation. Thought you might find that important in assessing the time and the author's writing. Your review was fair, I wonder now with this additional information what you may think? Our Shadow Selves walks with us until integrated. I'll not read this one and thank you for the review.
@@CriminOllyBlog If I'm not mistaken, it was happening right outside his window as he wrote. You can certainly feel him working through a lot of anger in the book, almost like "THIS is what they think we are, so here, choke on it", and that goes for some time before it seems to change late in the story. You can almost feel the anger leaving him.
I read it, went in completely blind, and it was horrible. The most disturbing, disgusting book that’s for sure. It really makes you wonder wtf is wrong with the author to write something like this.
Really interesting review, and I stayed through to the end, but I don’t think I’ll read the book. I have read two of his more “normal” science fiction books and didn’t really like them….so I’m not sold on him for his famous stuff anyway yet….I’m still planning on reading one more science fiction book of his at some point, but I’m not into his work yet, regardless of this odd anomaly. You reviewed it brilliantly in this video.
Was watching this in bed last night, my wife on her phone was listening, half way through the video she asked me “what are you watching?” I replied “It’s a review of a book I have just finished”, another 5 minutes or so pass and she asks me, “Why would you read a book like that?”. My response “He made me read it” 😊
I read this book in middle school 😢 Big mistake. My parents didn’t preview my books before I read them because I was well behaved and did well in school.
Hello! I just wanted to thank you for all of your disturbing book reviews. I am pretty easily freaked out by a lot of the topics in these stories, but listening to you talk about them in a calm and honestly pretty soothing way has helped me a lot with my personal fears. Keep making great stuff!
hmmmm...I survived reading The Marquis when I was 12. Not sure this book would leave me unscathed at 70. Too busy trying to find a reason for not sticking my head in the oven as is.😱
I felt the same way with 100 days of sodom. Apparently its supposed to be a comedy but I took it very literally when I was in my 20's and was quite disgusted/horrified with it. When in fact it was written deliberately just to shock people with its vulgarity. I still loath it, regardless. And cannot scrub some of the lines out of my brain.
I'd say political satire more than just regular comedy, but meant to shock all the same, and as with you it definitely took me a couple of years to realize this. The same way I didn't "get" Machiavelli's The Prince originally. Still 120 Days is poorly written, but I get it considering the context of which it was written. So I look at his Juliette and Justine novels as more apropos of his art and message. Would I recommend any of them: no. But I get their existence now.
There are so many "Disturbing" daily events happening....the problem is... will these events be "Normalized" because we're so used to hearing about them ?
I for one don't think they will - I think there is a difference between things society find unacceptable or distasteful and things that are truly wrong. And I think we tend to be able to recognise the difference
We hear about bizzare and awful things every day. What used to shock me...I barely pause. The things that used to happen every year now happen every day. Our children are not safe anywhere, not in school, not on the internet. Not anywhere. We've become so violent...gun violence is so common...children are shooting and being shot...men don't just commit suicide, they take their family with them. Mass shootings are commonplace. We're a society in decline.
@@miapdx503 I wonder sometimes if we have an in built defence mechanism that stops us dwelling too much on the horror of things when they do start feeling commonplace (like mass shootings in the US). It would become overwhelming if each of them affected us as much as they should.
@@miapdx503 All the things you mention are so true. Soon there will be no public schools due to unsafe conditions. I wish I could remain optimistic,but that would be naive. The reality is, it's not getting better. People are afraid to speak up,afraid they will be labeled. Did we really lose touch with right, and wrong ? Violence, and destruction are acceptable because, people are expressing themselves. All violence is wrong. No excuses.
When I first started listening to this review I thought to myself 'Samuel R Delany' that name sounds familiar. Then I realised that I read some of his SF stuff from a speculative fiction class I did in University. I had no idea he'd written something like this. Kinda caught me off guard
I actually prefer hearing about peoples reactions more than the analysis. It's good to have both, but it's also something so personal the way we experience a book. I actually read very little horror nowadays, and haven't read really 'hard' horror like you do a lot, so listening to it is a good way for me without having to read (potentially triggering) books. :) thank yew
Thank you Olly for taking one for the team when it comes to these disturbing books. I do hope you are taking breaks in between to read something a little more pleasant.
A super, thoughtful reveiw. I think Samuel Delany is a fascinating man and you are probably very correct in saying that he was working through things in his writing of this book. Thank you for such an intelligent,rational, non exploitative review.
This is a book I've known only by reputation, and it's unlikely I'll ever try to steel myself to actually find it and read any of it. That said, Delany certainly has a secure position as one of the most esteemed science fiction writers of his generation, so I don't doubt his literary talent and seriousness. I was thinking during this discussion of the philosophy of aesthetics that developed in classical India, involving the concept of 'rasa', which in Sanskrit literally means 'flavor'. The 'rasa' of a work of art is the dominant emotional mood inspired in the witness by the work of art, there being at least eight such recognized moods, namely the erotic, the marvellous, the heroic, the wrathful, the sad, the mirthful, the odious, and the quiescent. A work of art was held to be successful insofar as it aroused at least one of these 'rasas' in the witness. According to these criteria, a work such as 'Hogg' could be held up as an artistic triumph merely by inspiring disgust in the reader, such an aim and reaction being recognized in this system as perfectly legitimate goals by an artist. Art was seen as fundamentally a field for the play of emotions rather than cerebral intellectual realization, and all human emotions were worthy attributes in an artist's palette.
Just started reading this. Challenging is the word! The only reason I've had for DNFing books in the past was due to them not piquing my interest, but the whole introduction to Hogg was turning my stomach. Wish me luck...
I read "Dhalgren" in the 1980s when I was in my late teens. It is, I believe, Delany's most commercially successful book. I am not sure how it came into my possession, but I still have the paperback. It concerns a wandering schizophrenic protagonist in a ravaged landscape who has random sexual encounters with various women and boys. Eventually he becomes leader of a gang that beats him up initially and has a triangular sexual relationship with a woman and a boy named Denny. It has been compared to Joyce. I cannot say the comparison is warranted but its plausible. I confess to having been turned off by the homoerotic pedophilic content which I had not encountered before. Despite my keen teen interest in sex, I found it very dull. I recall feeling kind of disgusted with myself for finishing it, as if I'd been tricked into wasting my time by a peep show. I recently read long short story by Delany called "The Star Pit" in a sci-fi collection. It was full of intriguing ideas and the writing was superior to some pulp I read with pleasure. It was not trash but not great. "Hogg" is apparently transgressive pornography. Pornography is evil but I find it alluring though ultimately repetitive and boring. Delany is brilliant and an imaginative and unique writer of fiction. Nevertheless, much of what he writes seems to be self-indulgent garbage. I won't read "Hogg". Even the best made pornography degrades its consumers, inflaming the worst in us and gradually depriving us of the joy in sexual relations with another person.
So far it’s the only book by him that I’ve read and I’m genuinely interested to see how the kind that came up with this would treat less extreme subject matter. Although on the face of it Dhalgren seems pretty similar!
A friend insisted I read dahlgren. It was disturbing but little stuck. There's literature that is important but nearly unreadable, and I'll leave this one to the pros...
I learned so much from this video, thank you! :) COWS scars me to this day....I dropped the book off at the Goodwill after reading it because I felt weird having it in my house (Apologies to whatever unfortunate, unsuspecting soul picked that one up on their thrift run lol ) Looking forward to giving Story of the Eye a shot though!
Fascinating. I have no intention of reading Hogg but it’s existence conflicts somewhat with some views I have held for a long time. Firstly I am completely pro freedom of speech. People should be allowed to think and say whatever they believe even if the vast majority of people don’t like it. This is why I currently hate the modern trend to bar people with views different to your own. If you are unable to debate logically opposing views on any matter but to just say I am right and you aren’t and thus can’t speak shows you to be a weak intellectual coward. Secondly the natural consequence of believing in freedom of speech is an opposition to censorship. The opposition of freedom of speech and the piling on of censorship and propaganda are the first steps taken by the worst kind of totalitarian dictatorships. But maybe just maybe there is stuff that crosses a line (if such a line exists). That is why things like Hogg conflict me.
Great points (and sorry for taking so long to reply!). It occurs to me about Hogg that's another interpretation of Hogg - that it's an extreme expression of freedom of speech
21:31 You are the least pretentious UA-camr I’ve seen. You’re very patient and humble. I really appreciate your thorough explanations. You’re brilliant at explaining things in a way that makes it simple for us, without patronising us. 😊
Hogg is the only novel I have read that genuinely rattled my cage. And I consider myself a hardened reader. I'm not expecting a faithful adaptation to the big screen anytime soon or ever. 😂
@@CriminOllyBlog Harvey Weinstein might be a better choice. He is the actual embodiment of a character like Hogg. Tom Hanks would likely faint while you pitched the movie to him. I don't think Woke Hollywood could handle material like this, even though alot of what happens in the book probably takes place in the industry itself.
Not sure I'd want to see this movie. If the adaptation of "American Psycho" would have been true to the source material, it would have been a movie made by "Toetag Pictures" with special FX by Fred Vogel.
@@MrSeedi76 Brett Easton Ellis stole the rat in the tube scenario from De Sade. And I own all the Fred Vogel August Underground films. HOGG trumps them all. Hogg makes Fred Vogel look like Fred Durst 😂
@@acidburns4046 I ordered it yesterday. Not sure I'm "looking forward" to reading it but the review peaked my interest. Been a serious horror fan for 30 years now and watched most of the "disturbing movies" that top the lists (like most Toetag movies - not all however), so... I support people writing extreme literature. The last one that could probably called extreme that I read was "Body Art" by Kristopher Triana. I'm more into extreme movies than books but every now and then I read one.
I wouldn't read this book as I feel the price you pay for transgressive fiction is desensitization, I get that people feel the other way though. I do read dark books, just not of a sexual nature, so I can't get on my high horse too much😁. Thanks for letting me know to avoid this one.
I have never heard of transgressive literature. I'm glad I learned about it. Oh Lord, Ollie. Just what kind of things that are even in people's minds? There was a supreme court justice here in America who was trying a case on pornography. They were trying to define it. They couldn't. He said, I don't know what pornography is, but I know it when I see it. Be careful. Be very careful when reading these kind of books. I know you want to read disturbing books to stretch yourself and to learn to read things that are uncomfortable. But this kind of book changes you. You cannot unread the things in them. Just hearing you speak about the book was very uncomfortable. I listened all the way through because I wanted to hear your complete reaction. I can tell it really affected you. Now go read a good pulp.
My brother bought me a copy of Bertín Roueche’s Feral on your recommendation because he knows how much I like The Birds. Read it on a flight to New Hampshire this weekend. Great recommendation!
16:12 Would you say it’s shocking for the sake of being shocking? As in, do you think this author just thought “what are the most taboo and hideous things in life? Let’s chuck them in”? Or do you think there’s an actual storyline that’s well thought out and clever, with a reason for the level of depravity?
Yeah it occurred to me after posting the review that I didn't even talk about the story. There kind of is one, but it's largely there to tie the acts of violence together. And yes, I do think he went out of his way to be shocking
“Iwouldn’t want to share a cup of tea with anyone who got aroused while reading it.” What a perfect blurb for the front of the book ha ha.
Someone should tell the publisher
Im not sure why you'd want to share the tea, couldn't you have your own cup of tea? Is it necessary to share?
@@jamesgornall5731 I phrased it badly lol - I meant take tea with them
😂😂I laughed at that too. I said back to the screen. “You don’t know me!”😅
@@JennidavismakeupHouston LOL!
I stayed the entire 25 minutes for a book review of a book that I knew I never wanted to read. Really, well done, Olly. Nice job. I Hope you read something fluffy and cute after it. - 📚MJ
So true!
Thanks MJ - it was 3 times the length I normally aim for in review videos, but I didn't feel it was a book that could be talked about casually
@@CriminOllyBlog Agreed. 👏🏻
Me as well
I accidentally own five copies of Hogg. It's such a wacky situation to be in.
😂😂😂 how the hell did you manage that?
Lmao what in the WORLD 😂
Never buy a book bundle at a convicted criminal's estate sale
This is probably my favorite video of yours, very well-presented and thought out. I am also thankful that you put a small bit of reading stress to bed for me. Delany's "Dahlgren" is one of my absolute favorite novels, and I have been thinking about "Hogg" for a long time, wondering if I should read it because I love Delany's other work and because I am something of a completist when it comes to my favorite writers, or if I should leave it alone due to its subject matter. I think I'll skip it, based on this review.
Thank you so much for saying that! I definitely want to try some of his other books and Dhalgren seems like the one to go for
I still don't know if I'd actually read this book - again, the question is always "why would I subject myself to this?" But your video was very interesting and definitely gave me a different perspective on it.
Glad you found the video interesting - it definitely is a book that one subjects oneself to rather than simply reads
I am a huge Delaney fan (I think his book Dhlagren is likely to be seen as one of the great classics) but I could not read this. I tried, but I did not get far. Like you I really struggle to understand why he even wrote it.
I do really need to try his SF!
I appreciate your videos because I’m interested in disturbing books in theory, but I have no desire to read them in reality. I have nightmares already, I don’t need to read something that’s gonna give me constant new ones.
That's a very good reason for not reading them. Glad my videos help you experience them safely
Really excellent review Olly, fascinating. Definitely don't plan to read this but I really enjoyed listening to your thoughts
Thank you so much, Crystal
Kudos to you for writing such an objective and thoughtful review on such extraordinarily difficult subject matter. While I do enjoy books with disturbing or dark topics, I think this is certainly one that I will skip.
Thank you! And yes skipping it is almost certainly a good idea
I felt your explanation was absolutely solid and I very much agreed for why this book would exist. Thank you for your time!
You're very welcome!
This is the kind of book that makes me wish you could sell "used" ebooks, that's the easiest way to get stuff like this but then you're stuck with it forever. I know my e-library is already deeply tainted, but I don't like adding more filth to it.
Yeah you can just completely delete them I guess
Lmao. Ebooks aren't real, they can't hurt you
@@1WEareBUFO1
Buti don't want to own "The Man of the House Meets the Easter Bunny" forever just bc I read it once as a joke. (Yes that's real and yes it's gross lol)
As an airport employee I recommend picking up a pulp, manga, or novella at a local comic book or regular bookstore for your carry on. Something light and easy to read while waiting for take-off. Not a big fan of airport bookshops, since they nothing but Crihton and King.
Fascinating. No idea how looking for a Gene Wolfe audio book brought me to this video, but this was a genuinely interesting watch. The book is absolutely not for me, but I think you raise a lot of interesting points about the motivation. I think there is also a big disconnect between fiction/ fantasy and real life that many find impossible to surmount. This, coupled with the understandable revulsion many feel about extreme topics such as abuse, lead many to say something is bad and wrong because they don't like it and for it to happen in real life would be awful. This doesn't have to be the case. I believe the leading research and experts reiterate that fantasy and fiction do not have causation with real acts, but there is the inability for some to hear this and only to focus on correlation. Anyways, great video and thanks for discussing a book I would never want to read, but find fascinating.
Thank you! Glad you found it interesting. Also, yay Gene Wolfe!
Gene Wolfe is the best
Hi Olly, it was written in 1969 but not published until 1995 after some rewrites so even until recently (1995 is recent to me!) Delaney must have still thought it had important things to say, which I find very interesting. and the word you where looking for is coprophagia - which my spell checker refuses to acknowledge, big fat red line under it even though it is spelt correctly. Now THAT I find very interesting! It's almost as if by denying the word the act cannot exist.
Ha! I love the idea of your spell check keeping you pure
@@CriminOllyBlog I find it disturbing in a way I can't really articulate and it feels like it has resonance with the book you have just read.
I think you did a wonderful job dissecting a very difficult book to discuss. And one I don't think I can actually read.
Thank you! But yeah I wouldn't recommend reading it!
@@CriminOllyBlog that, Cows and The Girl Next Door are on my I don't think so list lol
@@bluwillowsoaps Yeah Cows I definitely wouldn't both with. TGND is horrific but does feel somewhat worthwhile
@@CriminOllyBlog I just can't. I watched the movie American Crime which is probably the mildest version of that story and I couldn't take it. I'm not sure why it affects me so badly. Of course it's horrible but I watch/read a lot of horrible stuff lol I just can't do that one.
@@bluwillowsoaps yeah it is an absolutely appalling case
I was off UA-cam for a bit so I'm coming late to the party here, lol, but I just wanted to say I think you hit the nail on the head about the purpose of this book. Its literary merit lies in the fact that his purpose in writing it was to gain more mainstream acceptance for homosexuality and homosexual erotica in the pornographic "mainstream". He never shied away from erotic content, especially later in his career, and I think his resentment and anger (justified) was festering within him. This book was practically an act of sexual exorcism. It is disgusting, repetitive and filled with transgressive material, but I think it was like a boil he felt he had to lance. You put it perfectly. This is a book more people should be aware of, even if few of them read it. Thanks for devoting your time to it so some of us don't have to, lol.
Also, if you like the whole "Cursed film" trope (moving on to your book from the shelves), "Experimental Film" by Gemma Files is a great supernatural detective story involving a lost, supposedly cursed film with a truly creepy folk horror bent.
Love the channel!!
Thanks Margaret, and apologies in taking a while to get to this comment. Really glad you thought I got it right in the review.
I've heard so many good things about Experimental Film - it's definitely on my list to get to at some point!
Great job. That took a lot of courage and strength of character.
Thank you!
@@CriminOllyBlog You're certainly welcome.
Wow.... That was SO interesting.... I am definately gonna pick up that book 😍 Sound like an absolute nightmare to read..... Pheeew..... Thanks.... A LOT ❤️
Hope you make it through it
Thank you a great review Olly , you explained very well. It helps me along the way if I finish this book Hogg .
Glad it was helpful!
@@CriminOllyBlog 🙂
Interesting to listen to your take on the content. I hope the tea helped ☕️… I need to lie down having just watched your video 🥺
Thank you! And yes, tea always helps!
I’ve always been able to separate the art from the artist, could listen to a Micheal Jackson tune without thinking he’s a kiddy fiddler, which he probably was. I think that disconnect means I can just about read anything without being mortified. The key for me is does the story move, not where it goes particularly. Another great vid. A lot of sci fi writers have very dodgy pasts though..
Thank you! Glad you found the video useful. And yeah it's very often necessary to separate the creator from the content
I am not one of those people that corrects people especially over trivial spelling, pronunciations or periods of time especially if they are only off one or two or more years but I believe the book came out in 1994/1995 and not in 1969 which is considerably and specifically 25 years later than you mentioned which are totally different times and environments in America between 1969 and 1994/1995…But I have read Delany and Dhalgren and Babel-17 are my favorites…Never read this one and not sure I want too…I am not prudish in any way just it will take me being in the right mindset to digest a book with this content…Thank You for the video and keep up the good works 👍🏻
You’re right that it was published in 94/95. I think the majority of it was written in 1969 though
I was not aware of that fact…Thank You…
Keep up the good works 👍🏻
I think the first time I heard about Hogg was in a J.G. Ballard interview where he praised it. I get your read about closeted Delany using the novel to take a swing at cultural norms. It's also interesting that Delany was hiding within a cultural norm of being married (given, an open marriage) to a woman and had a baby daughter when the book was coming together in the 1970s.
That is an interesting point. I hadn't even consider that side of his personal life, although I did know he was married
Readers should also consider that this book was written in 1973, a time whi h many readers don't understand. It was very different from today, especially when it comes from what was and wasn't a transgression at the time -- such as pornographic films, which were just starting to gain cultural acceptance and were certainly not what they have become in this internet age (they were far more erotic, with stories, and were primarily in movie theaters. The porn of the 70s and early 80s certainly "moved the needle" when it comes to depictions of sex in movies.)
I think, too, that understanding the times in which Hogg was written, as well as when 120 Days of Sodom and The Story of the Eye were written, give the stories greater depth and understanding than the superficial "it was gross" analysis. Since Delaney also wrote non-graphic sci-fi and speculative fiction, one might even place Hogg in the speculative fiction category. If I were to delve further into the philosophical aspects of Delaney's era, as well as the writing of Foucault on sexuality, and put it together with my knowledge of the 42nd St -Times Square sexual circus of the 70s and 80s, I might be able to tell you what Delaney was aiming for with this novel. Or one of my porn scholar friends might know. But, these days I dont care to wrap my head around that stuff. Too busy reading about Putin's rise to power. That alone is scary enough!
This is a fascinating discussion. I think you might have something about moving the line in people's minds. And it is a good point I wish more people understood. Why should people care if it is two consenting adults.
Yeah, there are far more important things to worry about in the world than what 2 grown ups do in their bedroom
I haven't read the book, I had to take a peek about its contents. I'm a lawyer currently practicing Civil Rights Law in NYC however we are a nation turning more violent everyday. I do hold several degrees, one being in psychopathology and practiced a different law previously. I was never a defense lawyer, although those that are don't ever want to handle these cases. I think people read books of this nature to come to terms with evil. They know it exists, but does it really exist on this level? Is it really possible? What drives a person? Rape...how can there be ANY defense? Its not about sex. Rape is about power. This is the most primal example. Torture, bodily fluids and materials are unimaginable to the majority of people but it comes from a dark place in a person's psychological make-up. However it doesn't give the right to commit crimes as other live normal lives and come from heinous backgrounds.
I love horror movies and horror books but not with children or animals being hurt or rape, or gratuitous sex. I want a scare but not to be traumatized, I am daily in reality.
Completely agree
First video of yours alive seen, popped up in my feed. No desire to ever read this, not even out of curiosity, but really enjoyed your thoughts and moving on to binge your videos lol
Thank you! Most of my other videos are about books people might actually want to read!
@@CriminOllyBlog I have put a few on my to read list already!
I read Delaney’s absolutely fantastic science fiction books before (albeit VERY hesitantly) picking up Hogg and I couldn’t help but feel as if I was being transported into another world again, but one whose morals were the complete opposite of ours. I’m not sure if this was a coping mechanism on my part lol that was just how I processed it. The world of Hogg was THAT alien to me in terms of how nonchalantly depraved it is.
I'm around 30% through Hogg on the kindle. It's beyond ridiculous so far. ..I've laughed out loud a few times. Its just sick.😫
Yeah it really is pretty horrible
@@CriminOllyBlog 40% now. Lol. It's interesting........kind of. Ha ha
The difference between gay sex and the rest of the book is that gay sex between two consenting adults isn’t violent. Books like this didn’t normalize it. I sincerely hope none of the rest of the book “becomes a little more normalized.” Violent rape, incest, and pedophilia should never be normalized. It has no place in this world. The author lived with a hellscape in his mind, each story a deep jagged scar. I can’t imagine the damage you do to yourselves reading these books. How can you heal from that?
Completely agree that those things shouldn't be normalised.
I am Asher Farlow, I am a Transgressive author. This genre can be meld into pornography, erotica, horror, dystopia, adventure, many many things including grimdark. I am very careful about walking a thin lime between realism and extremism. I do not wish to shock people but to be as raw and real as possible depending on what the situation is I never hold back the content but the wording mustn't ever cross the line into absurdity or evil.
I've read some of Delaney's SciFi, I was actually unaware of Hogg, I don't think I'll be adding it to my TBR. I found your insight interesting, particularly the idea that his reason for writing transgressive stuff was to deliberately push the envelope. I think being so over the top might actually have the opposite effect. Wedding things that were on the cusp of becoming socially acceptable with things that would cause most readers to throw their hands up in disgust, might actually cause society to move the window in the other direction. In contrast something like the work of James Baldwin, another black gay author who wrote a lot about complex bisexual and gay characters with what was then considered explicit scenes would move the window by degrees in the right direction.
That's an interesting take and I do see what you mean. His approach is definitely the opposite of Baldwin's
Where does that line end, I wonder. Interesting topic.
That is an interesting question!
@@CriminOllyBlog I generally avoid hardcore horror. I can barely handle reading a book like The Painted Bird, or perhaps I just need a heavy dose of camp to digest anything too graphic. I do love grand guignol Italian giallo films, so maybe it is a matter of taste(lessness). ;)
@@ReginasHauntedLibrary Giallos do at least make everything else look beautiful
Went searching online for Throat Sprockets - only two copies in all the world to be found, both priced over $200. Makes me want to read it more! Too bad.
Wow - looks like I was lucky to grab mine when I did then. I find setting up a saved search in eBay is often the best way to get rare books affordably. A cheaper copy usually turns up eventually
@@CriminOllyBlog Good idea. I’ll try that, thanks.
Thanks for sharing. I won’t be reading it but it’s interesting to hear about without having to immerse yourself in it. On your random book from the shelf you mentioned ‘cursed film’ which immediately put me in mind of Marisha Pessl’s ‘cursed director’ book Night Film well worth a look if you have the time. Which I’m sure you don’t 😊.
Thanks Robert! I've read Night Film and really loved it!
Listening to your review you said that the gay sex is consensual but the sexual violence is reserved for women. Enough women are already victims of sexual violence in the real world writing about it and saying you are pushing the boundaries is despicable
I think that’s a fair point, but the book is really complex and I might have over-simplified the way consent is discussed in the book. Honestly you could make a 4 hour video about Hogg and not cover everything.
@@CriminOllyBlog Hi Olly! :) Would you consider making another video discussing said complexities? Just scratch the surface of some of them?
@@TearBlossom Gosh, I think I'd have to read the book again to do that justice and not sure I have the stomach for that
Interesting video... I am not sure I want to read Hogg... I am really interested in reading Throat Sprockets, but so far I couldn't find a copy ...
Thanks, Thomas - Hogg is definitely not a book to go into lightly!
Hope you're able to find a copy of Throat Sprockets
I can't remember who said it, but someone once said that the distinction between pornography and erotica was that porn also set out to disgust as well as titillate. As for 101 Days of Sodom, it's like much of 18th century French pre-revolutionary porn in that it mixed sex with ideology. There'd be pages of the sexually liberated heroines enjoying themselves in the boudoir, mixed with explanations of revolutionary politics. HOGG is clearly something that Delaney wanted to get out of his system, but I'm not convinced it was advocating for gay acceptance based on its inclusion with the really 'orrible stuff in the rest of the book.
Whenever I want to read books like Hogg, there’s a problem kind of bothers me: English is not my first language. I can read English just fine, but read English gonna take more effort. As a result, the content I read gonna rub much deeper whether I wanted or not. To read a slasher book is one thing, but to read truly disturbing books is totally another. I just can’t find a way to fix this problem (plus books like Hogg won’t get translated into my first language due to the nature of the content😑).
That's an interesting problem to have - I'd never really thought about the effort of reading changing the impact of a book
@@CriminOllyBlog It’s like looking things through magnifying glass, or watch something in slow motion or close-ups. Sometimes you just won’t want to watch something that closely. On the other hand, certain descriptions won’t trigger raw emotions for me when it’s in English, like cursing or certain foul language, it will be processed as A word not THE word 😂
@@jessicamou That does make perfect sense
Why do you read these books? What is it that attracts to this genre? No criticism, I'm genuinely curious.
I tried to read 120 Days of Sodom, but I didn't finish, purely because it was so repetitive I found it boring and tedious.
I don't read books about serial killers, because I feel tainted by their stories. I realised years ago, when my sister loaned me a book about Fred and Rose West, and I couldn't get past the first paragraph. (My sister thought that was hilarious). Do you feel that all of the depravity in the books you talk about leave a mark on the reader? Do you think they raise questions and issues that people need to think about? Do you feel this kind of literature has intrinsic value because it makes readers think?
I have no idea why your review of de Sade's book came up in my recommended, but I'm so glad it did. I thoroughly enjoy your reviews and listening to your thoughts on the books you read. Thank you xx
Thank you! Really glad you're enjoying the channel.
I did make a video about the "why" question a while ago
ua-cam.com/video/d9oVHD6PGqM/v-deo.html
I'll also be reflecting on it more, and the concept of desensitisation, in a future video
Wow. As someone that balks at even seemingly, well a lot less Godawful scenes, but still the worst something like a James Herbert book has to
Offer I couldn’t even imagine reading something like this.
As a big fan of the sci-fi genre, this novel's very existence is why I refuse to read anything by Delany, even his sci-fi work.
Made it to the end of your review! Phew! And I will never read this book! Thanks Olly for reading it for us! 😂 Carol
Thanks for watching it all!
I found this book on Amazon. In the reviews everyone expressed it as nauseating, grotesques and explicit. I really want to buy it but by those reviews I’m afraid.
You should be afraid!
Have you ever read Coldheart Canyon by Clive Barker? Nowhere near as weird as this book you reviewed, but pretty crazy! Check it out if you haven’t read it! Carol
Hi Carol! I've read a fair bit of Barker but not that one - I'll have to give it a try sometime
So, I started this video then stopped it and went to my favorite ebook site and found a copy of Hogg (and later Cows and Story of the Eye) and started reading so I could compare my reaction to yours. I made to about 55% of the book, gave up and am wondering WTF is this book is about,? Where was this story going? Or, is there, in fact, a story there? Is it just to shock and disgust? If so, then I have to agree with Calvin of "Calvin and Hobbes" in that "Just because you've evoked a reaction doesn't mean that you've made a statement."
That Calvin and Hobbes quote is great! It really is a difficult book to come to terms with I think
Oh Olly... I do hope this is the last time you will talk about this book. I wished you had uttered the punchline in the video: It's all right! (Let this be the last time I do those keystrokes!)
Saw "Olly Fans " at the end of the vid and was very confused. Instantly started wondering how much these kinda books were getting to you.
Ha!
When I imagine being gay in a society of people to whom my rather innocent nature is seen as pure evil, I understand the desire to show them what pure evil actually looks like. Perhaps not to move that line but to highlight where it truly lies and where it does not.
That’s a very good way of putting it
A used copy of Heather Lewis’ “Notice” just sold on eBay for $635. I think you’re the cause of the whopping price increase-you should get a commission!
I saw that! It does seem crazy to me that my rambling have had a (very small) real world impact
I’ve been looking for that book everywhere 😢
@@JennidavismakeupHouston sorry! Someone did say on my Discord that it is on Scribd now
I assume that we'll never hear this one on Audible? LOL
Lordy! Two and a half minutes of listening to waffling and disclaimers and repeated statements it’s a “difficult book” before even getting into it was enough to make me abandon this installment. Either just come out and say what you’re going to say or let it go and move on to another book. I’ll be back for your next video.
I mean, if you don’t want to come back that’s not a problem
2:39 was? As of July 22, 2024, he’s still alive.
I read this book in 11th grade and it was almost tedious in it's grossness so I did have trouble finishing it but anyone who sees it as an easy read is creepy
Definitely agree on that last point!
Yours was a well-reasoned, sound hypothesis about the author’s likely motivation. And thanks for the overview- I feel sufficiently cautioned to absorb the lesson without undergoing the ordeal of consuming the tale.
Thank you - glad you found the video useful
Please, please get to the point! You spend an awful amount of time--way too much-- warning people how disturbing the book is. Boring!
Ok
This book actually seems rather compelling even despite the insanely graphic depictions of sex, violence… seems Delaney had something important he wanted to say. I think you nailed it! He wanted to break apart the Hetero-normative narrative. Good review Olly. Extreme transgression. I’ll probably have to read it before I’m through… don’t know if I can handle it, but the Chandler Morrison novel I’m reading has been super explicit and nasty in parts. I haven’t read 180 days of sodom, and the reason you mentioned here for it not being commendable as literature
is precisely why I have avoided it.
I definitely think it's an interesting book. I haven't read Morrison yet, but I think this is probably a different of extreme
Hogg is absolutely amazing. I read it yearly.
I'm not sure I could do that!
Starts off shocking but quickly just becomes a chore.
I actually never found it a chore, unlike something like 120 Days of Sodom which really was dull after a while
@@CriminOllyBlog Ugh yea. I gave up on 120 Days of Sodom pretty early on. If Hogg is a chore 120 Days is prison labor.
Also, one thing that I think would've been worth mentioning in your vid is the narrator's passive/willing involvement in the events of the novel. I'm not sure if that makes the novel more or less disturbing.
While I wouldn't call it a good book it is thought provoking. In my opinion that alone gives the book value and might even be an argument against it being pornography.
@@erichodosh2933 Yeah agreed - thought provoking isn't something people expect (or want) porn to be
Olly, after a quick search, I can understand why you found this novel hard to handle.
Yeah, it's really something
Nice job, however ... I have a bookshelf of Delany, have met him briefly,. He's a brilliant, innovative and poetic writer with a wider range of interest than others. I'm straight, so at some point I could no longer identify with his characters. He grew up comfortably middle class if not higher, and although racism abounded in his formative years, he's cheerful about the larger environment of his upbringing (see his autobiography, The Motion of Light in Water). Hogg came from Delany's mind largely without the prodding of racism's sharp stick.
That's interesting - thank you
You say that this book was written in 1969. Interestingly, the end of June of 1969 was the Summer of the Stonewall riot, a gay bar in NYC's Village and was the beginning of Gay liberation. Thought you might find that important in assessing the time and the author's writing. Your review was fair, I wonder now with this additional information what you may think? Our Shadow Selves walks with us until integrated. I'll not read this one and thank you for the review.
That is interesting, it makes me wonder if Delany felt that pressure building up
@@CriminOllyBlog If I'm not mistaken, it was happening right outside his window as he wrote. You can certainly feel him working through a lot of anger in the book, almost like "THIS is what they think we are, so here, choke on it", and that goes for some time before it seems to change late in the story. You can almost feel the anger leaving him.
@@AWCMCultMovies That's really interesting and makes complete sense
I read it, went in completely blind, and it was horrible. The most disturbing, disgusting book that’s for sure. It really makes you wonder wtf is wrong with the author to write something like this.
Man I just started reading this 5 min in and I already feel sick
Yeah, it's pretty bad
@@CriminOllyBlog I’m gonna soldier on and keep reading I hope I can endure it
@@tilly_tillz4873 good luck. Tbh it doesn’t really get worse as it goes on, it’s just relentlessly awful throughout
Where can I find the list of disturbing books your profiling?
Here you go - criminolly.com/my-disturbing-books-project/
Really interesting review, and I stayed through to the end, but I don’t think I’ll read the book. I have read two of his more “normal” science fiction books and didn’t really like them….so I’m not sold on him for his famous stuff anyway yet….I’m still planning on reading one more science fiction book of his at some point, but I’m not into his work yet, regardless of this odd anomaly. You reviewed it brilliantly in this video.
Thanks Gareth - it was definitely a tough book to talk about
shamefully one of my favourite reads of 2023
I tried, but ultimately couldn't read it. I just don't get why you would write something like that in the first place.
Was watching this in bed last night, my wife on her phone was listening, half way through the video she asked me “what are you watching?” I replied “It’s a review of a book I have just finished”, another 5 minutes or so pass and she asks me, “Why would you read a book like that?”. My response “He made me read it” 😊
Ha ha ha! I'm happy to be able to give you a bit of air cover
@@CriminOllyBlog It’s true, I only read it because of your most disturbing book challenge :-) Not certain if I will finish 120 days….will see
Yes Olly nearly had me with 'Notice' by Heather Lewis, I'm wise to him now!
@@marpymellow3805if you can even get your hands on Notice, it’s basically unavailable online.
Never heard of it, ain’t gunna read it. Why would I?
I read this book in middle school 😢 Big mistake.
My parents didn’t preview my books before I read them because I was well behaved and did well in school.
My god! That's too horrible to even consider - hope you've recovered
noooooo 😶
That is definitely an oops moment you had there dalpaengi
Your a G
@@dalpaengi but I bet as a result, you are an informed and fascinating person.
Hello! I just wanted to thank you for all of your disturbing book reviews. I am pretty easily freaked out by a lot of the topics in these stories, but listening to you talk about them in a calm and honestly pretty soothing way has helped me a lot with my personal fears. Keep making great stuff!
Wow, thank you so much. I just press record and talk about books really, so comments like this always make me feel quite humble. 🥺
hmmmm...I survived reading The Marquis when I was 12. Not sure this book would leave me unscathed at 70.
Too busy trying to find a reason for not sticking my head in the oven as is.😱
I'd steer clear of it!
The book is total crap but it really does make The Marquis read like a fairytale its another level
I felt the same way with 100 days of sodom. Apparently its supposed to be a comedy but I took it very literally when I was in my 20's and was quite disgusted/horrified with it. When in fact it was written deliberately just to shock people with its vulgarity. I still loath it, regardless. And cannot scrub some of the lines out of my brain.
Yeah that really was a disgusting book
It gets even worse when you discover that sade was a rapist and pedo himself
And yet you kept reading .. 😂
I'm pretty sure he got off to it. The guy spent his life in and out of prison for abusing teenagers
I'd say political satire more than just regular comedy, but meant to shock all the same, and as with you it definitely took me a couple of years to realize this. The same way I didn't "get" Machiavelli's The Prince originally. Still 120 Days is poorly written, but I get it considering the context of which it was written. So I look at his Juliette and Justine novels as more apropos of his art and message. Would I recommend any of them: no. But I get their existence now.
I read this once, and promptly gave away my copy 😅
That's a pretty reasonable response!
There are so many "Disturbing" daily events happening....the problem is... will these events be "Normalized" because we're so used to hearing about them ?
I for one don't think they will - I think there is a difference between things society find unacceptable or distasteful and things that are truly wrong. And I think we tend to be able to recognise the difference
We hear about bizzare and awful things every day. What used to shock me...I barely pause. The things that used to happen every year now happen every day. Our children are not safe anywhere, not in school, not on the internet. Not anywhere. We've become so violent...gun violence is so common...children are shooting and being shot...men don't just commit suicide, they take their family with them. Mass shootings are commonplace. We're a society in decline.
@@miapdx503 I wonder sometimes if we have an in built defence mechanism that stops us dwelling too much on the horror of things when they do start feeling commonplace (like mass shootings in the US). It would become overwhelming if each of them affected us as much as they should.
@@miapdx503 All the things you mention are so true. Soon there will be no public schools due to unsafe conditions. I wish I could remain optimistic,but that would be naive. The reality is, it's not getting better. People are afraid to speak up,afraid they will be labeled. Did we really lose touch with right, and wrong ? Violence, and destruction are acceptable because, people are expressing themselves. All violence is wrong. No excuses.
@@CriminOllyBlog I sometimes wonder.
I’ve been binge watching all your reviews for hours and adding so many to my TR list over the summer. Keep up the great content 🖤
Thank you! Really glad you’re enjoying the channel 😊
Among the other things Samuel R. Delany wrote were issues 202 and 203 of _Wonder Woman_ in 1972.
Well damn now I want to read those
That's mad!
WOW! 😮
Wow!
When I first started listening to this review I thought to myself 'Samuel R Delany' that name sounds familiar. Then I realised that I read some of his SF stuff from a speculative fiction class I did in University. I had no idea he'd written something like this. Kinda caught me off guard
I actually prefer hearing about peoples reactions more than the analysis. It's good to have both, but it's also something so personal the way we experience a book. I actually read very little horror nowadays, and haven't read really 'hard' horror like you do a lot, so listening to it is a good way for me without having to read (potentially triggering) books. :) thank yew
Thanks Elli - glad you found the video interesting and that my channel helps you to experience different kinds of books
@@CriminOllyBlog Thank you! 🥰
Thank you Olly for taking one for the team when it comes to these disturbing books. I do hope you are taking breaks in between to read something a little more pleasant.
Don't worry, I am!
A super, thoughtful reveiw. I think Samuel Delany is a fascinating man and you are probably very correct in saying that he was working through things in his writing of this book. Thank you for such an intelligent,rational, non exploitative review.
Thank you - really glad you found it interesting
This is a book I've known only by reputation, and it's unlikely I'll ever try to steel myself to actually find it and read any of it. That said, Delany certainly has a secure position as one of the most esteemed science fiction writers of his generation, so I don't doubt his literary talent and seriousness.
I was thinking during this discussion of the philosophy of aesthetics that developed in classical India, involving the concept of 'rasa', which in Sanskrit literally means 'flavor'. The 'rasa' of a work of art is the dominant emotional mood inspired in the witness by the work of art, there being at least eight such recognized moods, namely the erotic, the marvellous, the heroic, the wrathful, the sad, the mirthful, the odious, and the quiescent. A work of art was held to be successful insofar as it aroused at least one of these 'rasas' in the witness. According to these criteria, a work such as 'Hogg' could be held up as an artistic triumph merely by inspiring disgust in the reader, such an aim and reaction being recognized in this system as perfectly legitimate goals by an artist. Art was seen as fundamentally a field for the play of emotions rather than cerebral intellectual realization, and all human emotions were worthy attributes in an artist's palette.
That's a concept I hadn't heard of before but it's really interesting. Hogg certainly achieves something
Just started reading this. Challenging is the word! The only reason I've had for DNFing books in the past was due to them not piquing my interest, but the whole introduction to Hogg was turning my stomach. Wish me luck...
Good luck!
I read "Dhalgren" in the 1980s when I was in my late teens. It is, I believe, Delany's most commercially successful book. I am not sure how it came into my possession, but I still have the paperback. It concerns a wandering schizophrenic protagonist in a ravaged landscape who has random sexual encounters with various women and boys. Eventually he becomes leader of a gang that beats him up initially and has a triangular sexual relationship with a woman and a boy named Denny. It has been compared to Joyce. I cannot say the comparison is warranted but its plausible. I confess to having been turned off by the homoerotic pedophilic content which I had not encountered before. Despite my keen teen interest in sex, I found it very dull. I recall feeling kind of disgusted with myself for finishing it, as if I'd been tricked into wasting my time by a peep show.
I recently read long short story by Delany called "The Star Pit" in a sci-fi collection. It was full of intriguing ideas and the writing was superior to some pulp I read with pleasure. It was not trash but not great. "Hogg" is apparently transgressive pornography. Pornography is evil but I find it alluring though ultimately repetitive and boring. Delany is brilliant and an imaginative and unique writer of fiction. Nevertheless, much of what he writes seems to be self-indulgent garbage. I won't read "Hogg". Even the best made pornography degrades its consumers, inflaming the worst in us and gradually depriving us of the joy in sexual relations with another person.
So far it’s the only book by him that I’ve read and I’m genuinely interested to see how the kind that came up with this would treat less extreme subject matter. Although on the face of it Dhalgren seems pretty similar!
A friend insisted I read dahlgren. It was disturbing but little stuck. There's literature that is important but nearly unreadable, and I'll leave this one to the pros...
I learned so much from this video, thank you! :) COWS scars me to this day....I dropped the book off at the Goodwill after reading it because I felt weird having it in my house (Apologies to whatever unfortunate, unsuspecting soul picked that one up on their thrift run lol ) Looking forward to giving Story of the Eye a shot though!
Glad you found it interesting! Story of the Eye is definitely more beguiling than either Hogg or Cows
Fascinating. I have no intention of reading Hogg but it’s existence conflicts somewhat with some views I have held for a long time. Firstly I am completely pro freedom of speech. People should be allowed to think and say whatever they believe even if the vast majority of people don’t like it. This is why I currently hate the modern trend to bar people with views different to your own. If you are unable to debate logically opposing views on any matter but to just say I am right and you aren’t and thus can’t speak shows you to be a weak intellectual coward.
Secondly the natural consequence of believing in freedom of speech is an opposition to censorship. The opposition of freedom of speech and the piling on of censorship and propaganda are the first steps taken by the worst kind of totalitarian dictatorships.
But maybe just maybe there is stuff that crosses a line (if such a line exists).
That is why things like Hogg conflict me.
Great points (and sorry for taking so long to reply!). It occurs to me about Hogg that's another interpretation of Hogg - that it's an extreme expression of freedom of speech
Two and a half minutes of babbling before you even begin to talk about the book. You really should have tried a third time before posting.
Thanks for the feedback!
I mentioned this before, but this is such a thoughtful and measured review of an extremely difficult book. Great video!
Thank you so much! :)
Unironically, this review makes me want to get a copy of this book ASAP 😂
Ha - yeah I was the same when I heard about the book
Ikr! 😔 it's our human nature. We are what we are, curious. 😏
21:31 You are the least pretentious UA-camr I’ve seen. You’re very patient and humble. I really appreciate your thorough explanations. You’re brilliant at explaining things in a way that makes it simple for us, without patronising us. 😊
Well now I'm blushing. Thank you, Mary
Sounds like I’ll be skipping this one.
After finding out that Delany is a supporter of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA), I won't be reading any of his work.
That is a completely understandable response. I wasn’t aware of that when I made the video
Hogg is the only novel I have read that genuinely rattled my cage. And I consider myself a hardened reader.
I'm not expecting a faithful adaptation to the big screen anytime soon or ever. 😂
Yeah I have found myself thinking of it a lot since I finished it. I thought I'd heard Tom Hanks had signed up to play Hogg, but maybe I'm wrong.
@@CriminOllyBlog Harvey Weinstein might be a better choice. He is the actual embodiment of a character like Hogg. Tom Hanks would likely faint while you pitched the movie to him. I don't think Woke Hollywood could handle material like this, even though alot of what happens in the book probably takes place in the industry itself.
Not sure I'd want to see this movie. If the adaptation of "American Psycho" would have been true to the source material, it would have been a movie made by "Toetag Pictures" with special FX by Fred Vogel.
@@MrSeedi76 Brett Easton Ellis stole the rat in the tube scenario from De Sade. And I own all the Fred Vogel August Underground films. HOGG trumps them all. Hogg makes Fred Vogel look like Fred Durst 😂
@@acidburns4046 I ordered it yesterday. Not sure I'm "looking forward" to reading it but the review peaked my interest.
Been a serious horror fan for 30 years now and watched most of the "disturbing movies" that top the lists (like most Toetag movies - not all however), so... I support people writing extreme literature.
The last one that could probably called extreme that I read was "Body Art" by Kristopher Triana. I'm more into extreme movies than books but every now and then I read one.
Such a great review! I read this year's ago and went in blind. I barely made it through. It still makes me feel icky thinking about it.
Wow, reading it unprepared must have been an experience
I wouldn't read this book as I feel the price you pay for transgressive fiction is desensitization, I get that people feel the other way though.
I do read dark books, just not of a sexual nature, so I can't get on my high horse too much😁. Thanks for letting me know to avoid this one.
It’s definitely worth avoiding. Glad you found the review helpful
I have never heard of transgressive literature. I'm glad I learned about it. Oh Lord, Ollie. Just what kind of things that are even in people's minds? There was a supreme court justice here in America who was trying a case on pornography. They were trying to define it. They couldn't. He said, I don't know what pornography is, but I know it when I see it. Be careful. Be very careful when reading these kind of books. I know you want to read disturbing books to stretch yourself and to learn to read things that are uncomfortable. But this kind of book changes you. You cannot unread the things in them. Just hearing you speak about the book was very uncomfortable. I listened all the way through because I wanted to hear your complete reaction. I can tell it really affected you. Now go read a good pulp.
Thanks Denisa, I'm reading something much fluffier and more entertaining now!
My friend Greg @Another Bibliophile Reads DNF'd it . . . Good God what a horrific book!
Yeah it really is!
I tried reading this book , it’s going to take me a year . The brutal details made me sick .
@@badrad9226 It really is extreme
My brother bought me a copy of Bertín Roueche’s Feral on your recommendation because he knows how much I like The Birds. Read it on a flight to New Hampshire this weekend. Great recommendation!
Glad you enjoyed it!
16:12 Would you say it’s shocking for the sake of being shocking? As in, do you think this author just thought “what are the most taboo and hideous things in life? Let’s chuck them in”? Or do you think there’s an actual storyline that’s well thought out and clever, with a reason for the level of depravity?
Yeah it occurred to me after posting the review that I didn't even talk about the story. There kind of is one, but it's largely there to tie the acts of violence together. And yes, I do think he went out of his way to be shocking
This review is so frustrating. The 'parental warning' red flag goes on for 15 minutes!
Sorry!