I stayed the entire 25 minutes for a book review of a book that I knew I never wanted to read. Really, well done, Olly. Nice job. I Hope you read something fluffy and cute after it. - 📚MJ
Was watching this in bed last night, my wife on her phone was listening, half way through the video she asked me “what are you watching?” I replied “It’s a review of a book I have just finished”, another 5 minutes or so pass and she asks me, “Why would you read a book like that?”. My response “He made me read it” 😊
Hello! I just wanted to thank you for all of your disturbing book reviews. I am pretty easily freaked out by a lot of the topics in these stories, but listening to you talk about them in a calm and honestly pretty soothing way has helped me a lot with my personal fears. Keep making great stuff!
@@catherinegentry7387 with all due respect, I don’t find not looking into something to understand it because of a disagreement with someone’s morality more problematic than looking at it face on. Many people don’t understand transgression and the reality of humanity. Don’t ever want to face it and therefore never actually understand it. We need to understand it to fight back. Delaney was abused, most likely groomed by older men and indoctrinated into the NAMBLA mindset as many gay men were in his time. There are reasons for all of this, and looking away/pretending like it doesn’t exist feels a whole lot more problematic to me than staring straight at it and trying to understand why humans behave these ways.
A super, thoughtful reveiw. I think Samuel Delany is a fascinating man and you are probably very correct in saying that he was working through things in his writing of this book. Thank you for such an intelligent,rational, non exploitative review.
I felt the same way with 100 days of sodom. Apparently its supposed to be a comedy but I took it very literally when I was in my 20's and was quite disgusted/horrified with it. When in fact it was written deliberately just to shock people with its vulgarity. I still loath it, regardless. And cannot scrub some of the lines out of my brain.
I'd say political satire more than just regular comedy, but meant to shock all the same, and as with you it definitely took me a couple of years to realize this. The same way I didn't "get" Machiavelli's The Prince originally. Still 120 Days is poorly written, but I get it considering the context of which it was written. So I look at his Juliette and Justine novels as more apropos of his art and message. Would I recommend any of them: no. But I get their existence now.
21:31 You are the least pretentious UA-camr I’ve seen. You’re very patient and humble. I really appreciate your thorough explanations. You’re brilliant at explaining things in a way that makes it simple for us, without patronising us. 😊
Thank you Olly for taking one for the team when it comes to these disturbing books. I do hope you are taking breaks in between to read something a little more pleasant.
I may sound like a conspiracy theorist, but they have been trying to normalize it since the swinging seventies. The first advocacy groups were founded during that decade. Delany is basically given a free pass by everyone for having the right politics and being a double minority. He said in an interview (hard to locate online anymore, I had to use the Wayback Machine to find Will Shetterly's blog), that he thinks his father touched him when he was very young, but he still respects him and does not bear any scars. And that he was sexually active in his childhood, which is the reason why he supported NAMBLA in the first place. He saw, that kids caught with adults were treated like juvenile delinquents and he wanted change. He also said, that he and a friend of his had one of those encounters with a local building superintendent, but they initiated it and it was nothing serious. He also supported the late Scott O'Hara (a gay activist and porn actor with a self-destructing lifestyle), who was pretty pissed at politically correct gay leaders for leaving queer kids in the dust. Delany talks a lot about consent, but he doubles down on everything. This rhymes with what a so-called non-offending nonce, a disturbing, internet famous man named Todd Nickerson wrote about his kind. That they should be seen as people similar to swimming instructors. Scary stuff.
@Nightbreed24 There are so many authors in the sci fi and fantasy world from NYC and the west coast that advocated for it and got away with disgusting endorsements and memberships with groups supporting other really monstrous...interests. I entirely believe that the only reason there haven't been any major exposes on these people is because genre fiction doesn't generate nearly enough interest in the public as movies or politics.
I actually prefer hearing about peoples reactions more than the analysis. It's good to have both, but it's also something so personal the way we experience a book. I actually read very little horror nowadays, and haven't read really 'hard' horror like you do a lot, so listening to it is a good way for me without having to read (potentially triggering) books. :) thank yew
When I first started listening to this review I thought to myself 'Samuel R Delany' that name sounds familiar. Then I realised that I read some of his SF stuff from a speculative fiction class I did in University. I had no idea he'd written something like this. Kinda caught me off guard
Thank you for providing an excellent , thought provoking review for a book I don't think I will read. While I personally don't think it's wise for my emotional well being to read these kinds of books, I deeply appreciate the discussion. I did used to read books of similar ilk, but was in a more precarious emotional state at the time.
That was a very thoughtful and useful review, Olly -- thank you! I appreciate the way you acknowledge the process of "sitting with" a book after you're done with the actual reading. Of course there are books we love immediately, and books that make us wonder why we read them, much less why someone wrote them. But I think it's important to give a story time to settle in, to let our minds pick at it and figure out our relationship to the material, especially if it's something upsetting. Even if we decide we hate it, the process allows us to fulfill our part of the author/reader "contract."
I do completely agree with that, and I think the more complex a book is, the longer "sitting with' period will be. Even thought I waited before making this video I'm not sure I'm even close to processing Hogg
This is a book I've known only by reputation, and it's unlikely I'll ever try to steel myself to actually find it and read any of it. That said, Delany certainly has a secure position as one of the most esteemed science fiction writers of his generation, so I don't doubt his literary talent and seriousness. I was thinking during this discussion of the philosophy of aesthetics that developed in classical India, involving the concept of 'rasa', which in Sanskrit literally means 'flavor'. The 'rasa' of a work of art is the dominant emotional mood inspired in the witness by the work of art, there being at least eight such recognized moods, namely the erotic, the marvellous, the heroic, the wrathful, the sad, the mirthful, the odious, and the quiescent. A work of art was held to be successful insofar as it aroused at least one of these 'rasas' in the witness. According to these criteria, a work such as 'Hogg' could be held up as an artistic triumph merely by inspiring disgust in the reader, such an aim and reaction being recognized in this system as perfectly legitimate goals by an artist. Art was seen as fundamentally a field for the play of emotions rather than cerebral intellectual realization, and all human emotions were worthy attributes in an artist's palette.
hmmmm...I survived reading The Marquis when I was 12. Not sure this book would leave me unscathed at 70. Too busy trying to find a reason for not sticking my head in the oven as is.😱
Fascinating. I have no intention of reading Hogg but it’s existence conflicts somewhat with some views I have held for a long time. Firstly I am completely pro freedom of speech. People should be allowed to think and say whatever they believe even if the vast majority of people don’t like it. This is why I currently hate the modern trend to bar people with views different to your own. If you are unable to debate logically opposing views on any matter but to just say I am right and you aren’t and thus can’t speak shows you to be a weak intellectual coward. Secondly the natural consequence of believing in freedom of speech is an opposition to censorship. The opposition of freedom of speech and the piling on of censorship and propaganda are the first steps taken by the worst kind of totalitarian dictatorships. But maybe just maybe there is stuff that crosses a line (if such a line exists). That is why things like Hogg conflict me.
Great points (and sorry for taking so long to reply!). It occurs to me about Hogg that's another interpretation of Hogg - that it's an extreme expression of freedom of speech
I still don't know if I'd actually read this book - again, the question is always "why would I subject myself to this?" But your video was very interesting and definitely gave me a different perspective on it.
I read this book in middle school 😢 Big mistake. My parents didn’t preview my books before I read them because I was well behaved and did well in school.
Just started reading this. Challenging is the word! The only reason I've had for DNFing books in the past was due to them not piquing my interest, but the whole introduction to Hogg was turning my stomach. Wish me luck...
I am a huge Delaney fan (I think his book Dhlagren is likely to be seen as one of the great classics) but I could not read this. I tried, but I did not get far. Like you I really struggle to understand why he even wrote it.
Your content is exceptional, Olly! Insightful as always. "Hogg" sounds more difficult than even Dennis Cooper, but based on the information that you provided about the author, I just might give this novel a try. It might be too much for me, but your review was very compelling and I'm a big fan of trangressive literature. Thanks for all the great videos!
There are so many "Disturbing" daily events happening....the problem is... will these events be "Normalized" because we're so used to hearing about them ?
I for one don't think they will - I think there is a difference between things society find unacceptable or distasteful and things that are truly wrong. And I think we tend to be able to recognise the difference
We hear about bizzare and awful things every day. What used to shock me...I barely pause. The things that used to happen every year now happen every day. Our children are not safe anywhere, not in school, not on the internet. Not anywhere. We've become so violent...gun violence is so common...children are shooting and being shot...men don't just commit suicide, they take their family with them. Mass shootings are commonplace. We're a society in decline.
@@miapdx503 I wonder sometimes if we have an in built defence mechanism that stops us dwelling too much on the horror of things when they do start feeling commonplace (like mass shootings in the US). It would become overwhelming if each of them affected us as much as they should.
@@miapdx503 All the things you mention are so true. Soon there will be no public schools due to unsafe conditions. I wish I could remain optimistic,but that would be naive. The reality is, it's not getting better. People are afraid to speak up,afraid they will be labeled. Did we really lose touch with right, and wrong ? Violence, and destruction are acceptable because, people are expressing themselves. All violence is wrong. No excuses.
I am Asher Farlow, I am a Transgressive author. This genre can be meld into pornography, erotica, horror, dystopia, adventure, many many things including grimdark. I am very careful about walking a thin lime between realism and extremism. I do not wish to shock people but to be as raw and real as possible depending on what the situation is I never hold back the content but the wording mustn't ever cross the line into absurdity or evil.
Kudos to you for writing such an objective and thoughtful review on such extraordinarily difficult subject matter. While I do enjoy books with disturbing or dark topics, I think this is certainly one that I will skip.
Fascinating. No idea how looking for a Gene Wolfe audio book brought me to this video, but this was a genuinely interesting watch. The book is absolutely not for me, but I think you raise a lot of interesting points about the motivation. I think there is also a big disconnect between fiction/ fantasy and real life that many find impossible to surmount. This, coupled with the understandable revulsion many feel about extreme topics such as abuse, lead many to say something is bad and wrong because they don't like it and for it to happen in real life would be awful. This doesn't have to be the case. I believe the leading research and experts reiterate that fantasy and fiction do not have causation with real acts, but there is the inability for some to hear this and only to focus on correlation. Anyways, great video and thanks for discussing a book I would never want to read, but find fascinating.
As an airport employee I recommend picking up a pulp, manga, or novella at a local comic book or regular bookstore for your carry on. Something light and easy to read while waiting for take-off. Not a big fan of airport bookshops, since they nothing but Crihton and King.
My brother bought me a copy of Bertín Roueche’s Feral on your recommendation because he knows how much I like The Birds. Read it on a flight to New Hampshire this weekend. Great recommendation!
This is probably my favorite video of yours, very well-presented and thought out. I am also thankful that you put a small bit of reading stress to bed for me. Delany's "Dahlgren" is one of my absolute favorite novels, and I have been thinking about "Hogg" for a long time, wondering if I should read it because I love Delany's other work and because I am something of a completist when it comes to my favorite writers, or if I should leave it alone due to its subject matter. I think I'll skip it, based on this review.
Hogg is the only novel I have read that genuinely rattled my cage. And I consider myself a hardened reader. I'm not expecting a faithful adaptation to the big screen anytime soon or ever. 😂
@@CriminOllyBlog Harvey Weinstein might be a better choice. He is the actual embodiment of a character like Hogg. Tom Hanks would likely faint while you pitched the movie to him. I don't think Woke Hollywood could handle material like this, even though alot of what happens in the book probably takes place in the industry itself.
Not sure I'd want to see this movie. If the adaptation of "American Psycho" would have been true to the source material, it would have been a movie made by "Toetag Pictures" with special FX by Fred Vogel.
@@MrSeedi76 Brett Easton Ellis stole the rat in the tube scenario from De Sade. And I own all the Fred Vogel August Underground films. HOGG trumps them all. Hogg makes Fred Vogel look like Fred Durst 😂
@@acidburns4046 I ordered it yesterday. Not sure I'm "looking forward" to reading it but the review peaked my interest. Been a serious horror fan for 30 years now and watched most of the "disturbing movies" that top the lists (like most Toetag movies - not all however), so... I support people writing extreme literature. The last one that could probably called extreme that I read was "Body Art" by Kristopher Triana. I'm more into extreme movies than books but every now and then I read one.
This is the kind of book that makes me wish you could sell "used" ebooks, that's the easiest way to get stuff like this but then you're stuck with it forever. I know my e-library is already deeply tainted, but I don't like adding more filth to it.
@@1WEareBUFO1 Buti don't want to own "The Man of the House Meets the Easter Bunny" forever just bc I read it once as a joke. (Yes that's real and yes it's gross lol)
ive never heard of this book before, out of curiosity i went to read the plot of it and while reading i could hear my heart beating as i was in just so much horror, shock and utter disgust over how someone wrote and published this?! i think if the narrator was aged up to be 18 i wouldn't have felt as uncomfortable as i did when i was reading the plot, that said big thanks and props to you for reading it and making a review, ill steer clear of this one i think...
I appreciate your videos because I’m interested in disturbing books in theory, but I have no desire to read them in reality. I have nightmares already, I don’t need to read something that’s gonna give me constant new ones.
Wow.... That was SO interesting.... I am definately gonna pick up that book 😍 Sound like an absolute nightmare to read..... Pheeew..... Thanks.... A LOT ❤️
I love your thoughtful, measured reviews Olly. I read Hogg during a period exploring transgressive literature in my early 20s. My main reaction to it was simple disgust which says more about me at that time than it - I found 120 Days of Sodom mostly dull, for example. I see so much more to Hogg through your eyes, which is a mark of a truly successful piece of art criticism I think. I'm not going to reread it, but you've left me with a richer experience of it.
I read 120 Days and it read like the Marquis de Sade just typed his favorite sex acts into an AI and waited to see what new ideas it would give him. I tried this one too, but-surprise!-I couldn't make it all the way through.
@@CriminOllyBlog I just can't. I watched the movie American Crime which is probably the mildest version of that story and I couldn't take it. I'm not sure why it affects me so badly. Of course it's horrible but I watch/read a lot of horrible stuff lol I just can't do that one.
"We know, man, that there is what we want, there is what should be, and there is what is: and don't none of them got anything to do with each other unless- - unless we make it, and the only way you can get from one to the other is to know that, don't you see? And they don't know that, so that makes 'em crazy-" Hogg I have read from the first to the last page. Took me 4 months. Read the before word, the after word. Gave it 5 stars. This nook finally made me feel something. But it wasnt horror, it was entertainment. For reference i am a 31 yo woman and english isnt my first language, french is. I am thoroughly jaded and always on the quest of finding a though read to seek my teeth into. Ill be now forever chasing the rush i felt reading Hogg. I watched this video halfway. Read the book and now i am here making my review after finishing the second half of the video. Thank you for the review.
First video of yours alive seen, popped up in my feed. No desire to ever read this, not even out of curiosity, but really enjoyed your thoughts and moving on to binge your videos lol
I am not one of those people that corrects people especially over trivial spelling, pronunciations or periods of time especially if they are only off one or two or more years but I believe the book came out in 1994/1995 and not in 1969 which is considerably and specifically 25 years later than you mentioned which are totally different times and environments in America between 1969 and 1994/1995…But I have read Delany and Dhalgren and Babel-17 are my favorites…Never read this one and not sure I want too…I am not prudish in any way just it will take me being in the right mindset to digest a book with this content…Thank You for the video and keep up the good works 👍🏻
I read Delaney’s absolutely fantastic science fiction books before (albeit VERY hesitantly) picking up Hogg and I couldn’t help but feel as if I was being transported into another world again, but one whose morals were the complete opposite of ours. I’m not sure if this was a coping mechanism on my part lol that was just how I processed it. The world of Hogg was THAT alien to me in terms of how nonchalantly depraved it is.
I've been working thru this book for almost a year now. I'd made a point of reading at least a few pages every morning w/my coffee & every evening w/my wine - was really dedicated to this book. That ended when I got to the toe cheese. I'm not saying it was my line in the sand, but I am saying it's been slow-going, since. All that said, Delany is just a fabulous writer & can convey simple beauty in the ugliest of settings, being viewed by the ugliest of ppl. Still reading.
I learned so much from this video, thank you! :) COWS scars me to this day....I dropped the book off at the Goodwill after reading it because I felt weird having it in my house (Apologies to whatever unfortunate, unsuspecting soul picked that one up on their thrift run lol ) Looking forward to giving Story of the Eye a shot though!
Cows is, by far, the most disgusting, unpleasant book I’ve ever read- and I’ve read Hogg! I couldn’t eat certain foods for weeks after reading it, and there’s parts of it that I absolutely cannot let myself think about or I’ll start to feel sick. I can handle reading descriptions of lots of unpleasant things, but scatalogical stuff and descriptions of people eating disgusting things (especially when it’s both of those things combined, as it so often is in Cows) are just too much for me. Cows is a book that should’ve stayed unwritten. It seems like Matthew Stokoe was trying to write a work of transgressive fiction that was a commentary on the futility of striving for a picture perfect life, but he just wasn’t able to pull it off, and he wound up putting the majority of his energy into writing the most miserable and excessively repulsive book possible.
The actual quote was in response to the Judge being asked, 'Can you define pornography?' to which he replied, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."
I believe that people should be able to express themselves artistically in whatever manner they seem fit. I am 100% against book banning, but if someone came to be to sign a petition to ban this book, it would be very hard not to.
Hi Olly, it was written in 1969 but not published until 1995 after some rewrites so even until recently (1995 is recent to me!) Delaney must have still thought it had important things to say, which I find very interesting. and the word you where looking for is coprophagia - which my spell checker refuses to acknowledge, big fat red line under it even though it is spelt correctly. Now THAT I find very interesting! It's almost as if by denying the word the act cannot exist.
One thing about the book covers of Kindle editions of books is that no matter when you had purchased the book Amazon can change the cover entirely and you will have to look at a cover that is entirely different from what you remember purchasing. I remember purchasing the digital version of Stephen King's IT in 2014 or 2015, before the 2016 It Chapter 1 movie (Atrocious movie with some good scenes, but still atrocious IMO). The cover I had originally was an all white background over which, in addition to text there was a graphic which you knew represented something like a clown's face, but not obviously. It had a red circle in the center for what was supposed to be the clown's red nose , but could pass as a red balloon, and a symmetrical toothy red smile. I liked it because it was abstract enough to be interpreted as something else that isn't related to a clown's face. Then there was basic stylized text. When the movie had come out in 2016 shortly after that the cover was changed. Also white background, but now there was a clear face of the clown from the movie. I really hated how they just switched my kindle book cover to the movie tie in cover. It means that if the publisher of some book, or some other party had the power to make Amazon change the written contents of digital books they could do that too. I am assuming they probably do that already. Like imagine if either Stephen King, or some other persons decided to remove the most infamous and distasteful part from that book? They probably would. But I think its not right to do that.
Yeah Amazon can definitely change the content of books, but I think they let you know and you can opt to download the new version or stick with the one you had. One exception to this is cases where they discover the publisher didn't have the rights to the book in which case they delete it from customer's kindles and send a refund. The most high profile book this happened with was (ironically) 1984
I feel like this book was written in a snit. Delany was looking out his window at crime, gay men being beaten and killed, black men being beaten and killed, and everything kind of overlaid with this type of moral condemnation which blamed the victims for being somehow morally sick. And what Delany seems to have done is say, "Oh, yeah? You think we're sick and immoral? Try this on for size!" It's a breathtaking literary tantrum.
The difference between gay sex and the rest of the book is that gay sex between two consenting adults isn’t violent. Books like this didn’t normalize it. I sincerely hope none of the rest of the book “becomes a little more normalized.” Violent rape, incest, and pedophilia should never be normalized. It has no place in this world. The author lived with a hellscape in his mind, each story a deep jagged scar. I can’t imagine the damage you do to yourselves reading these books. How can you heal from that?
The term "Shock value" is unanimously considered as a "bad thing" that should be cut out of a book. But I've never understood this. It's not that the shocking part is "shocking", it's that it doesn't fit into anything else and the tone of the book. That's why shock value fails, it feels detached and like a cheap trick to cause tension and emotions. But "shock value" still has VALUE. It's in the damn term. If your shock value is in a proper tone and experience, it will be valuable even if it doesn't say anything.
I’ve always been able to separate the art from the artist, could listen to a Micheal Jackson tune without thinking he’s a kiddy fiddler, which he probably was. I think that disconnect means I can just about read anything without being mortified. The key for me is does the story move, not where it goes particularly. Another great vid. A lot of sci fi writers have very dodgy pasts though..
I think Delany is half white. it’s my understanding that he’s biracial not just African American, he’s also white American. And He did share that he was sexually assaulted at 6. He also supported the controversial group NAMBA. I do agree his experiences with Racism and colorism and navigating white gay society as a biracial man played a roll in the writing of the book. When you’re half white you don’t fit in completely with white society, and you’re not completely accepted in black communities either. Causing all kinds of identity and belonging issues. I’m a Black American ( 2 black parents) btw. I do worry that books like this could push boundaries for exploitation of children. Lowering the age of consent, child marriage, etc. unchecked Patriarchy is dangerous. Even if they are gay men, they still wield power and influence. This was great content. I had never heard of Hogg or Delany until you. Thank you 🙏🏾
Have you read FINAL TRUTH; The Autobiography of a Serial Killer by serial killer Donald "Pee Wee" Gaskins (and Wilton Earle) ??? He was (in my opinion) one of the sickest, meanest and most dangerous serial killers of all time. He wrote Final Truth while sitting on death row, here in my home state of South Carolina. I've always heard that book is such a scary, intense and brutal book, that it is often required reading in some college Criminal Justice classes. Because the book is written by Pee Wee himself., and in his own words..., with his deep southern drawl...., it is truly horrifying that he was on the loose as long as he was. It (to me) is by far.., the most brutal and sickening book ever written on OR by a real serial killer !!
I haven't read the book, I had to take a peek about its contents. I'm a lawyer currently practicing Civil Rights Law in NYC however we are a nation turning more violent everyday. I do hold several degrees, one being in psychopathology and practiced a different law previously. I was never a defense lawyer, although those that are don't ever want to handle these cases. I think people read books of this nature to come to terms with evil. They know it exists, but does it really exist on this level? Is it really possible? What drives a person? Rape...how can there be ANY defense? Its not about sex. Rape is about power. This is the most primal example. Torture, bodily fluids and materials are unimaginable to the majority of people but it comes from a dark place in a person's psychological make-up. However it doesn't give the right to commit crimes as other live normal lives and come from heinous backgrounds. I love horror movies and horror books but not with children or animals being hurt or rape, or gratuitous sex. I want a scare but not to be traumatized, I am daily in reality.
Defense attorney, civil rights attorney, and horror movie lover here with boundaries that keep me away from extremist art. I even hesitated to watch this review. Going off topic here but to your question that I think it's rhetorical but that every defense attorney is asked seriously, 'how can there be a defense?' It's about protecting & defending constitutional rights, advocating for the accused- accusation isn't guilt, making the state prove its case. Lawyers who are SA survivors do defend people accused of rape. I have. And there are cases I will not take. There are cases individual lawyers cannot take because the case is so disturbing to that specific attorney that they wouldn't be able to effectively do their jobs. There are some extremely strong defense attorneys who take on those cases. My frustration is that people read books like this to come to terms with evil but still ignore evil IRL. It feels like selfish satisfaction of saying 'yes, my eyes are open to its existence. The end.'
11:29 Thank you so much for explaining- so eloquently- what transgressive literature is. I heard you reference it in another video and you’ve saved me having to Google. 😅
Some transgressive literature can be transcendent, William s Burroughs for example lived on the edge of normal life as a queer person but also had an amazing structure and thought to some outstanding documents of the outsider
This is a good narration. I genuinely don’t understand why people are giving you crap. They clicked on a 25 minute video that is obviously a very thorough explanation, and could have clicked off. Thanks for making this video! I needed something to listen to while I was at work.
16:12 Would you say it’s shocking for the sake of being shocking? As in, do you think this author just thought “what are the most taboo and hideous things in life? Let’s chuck them in”? Or do you think there’s an actual storyline that’s well thought out and clever, with a reason for the level of depravity?
Yeah it occurred to me after posting the review that I didn't even talk about the story. There kind of is one, but it's largely there to tie the acts of violence together. And yes, I do think he went out of his way to be shocking
Excellent discussion of a difficult book. Delany has many other wonderful books for those that prefer not to go down that rabbit hole. Babel-17 is one I often recommend for people who enjoy reading but don’t generally read science fiction.
I was off UA-cam for a bit so I'm coming late to the party here, lol, but I just wanted to say I think you hit the nail on the head about the purpose of this book. Its literary merit lies in the fact that his purpose in writing it was to gain more mainstream acceptance for homosexuality and homosexual erotica in the pornographic "mainstream". He never shied away from erotic content, especially later in his career, and I think his resentment and anger (justified) was festering within him. This book was practically an act of sexual exorcism. It is disgusting, repetitive and filled with transgressive material, but I think it was like a boil he felt he had to lance. You put it perfectly. This is a book more people should be aware of, even if few of them read it. Thanks for devoting your time to it so some of us don't have to, lol. Also, if you like the whole "Cursed film" trope (moving on to your book from the shelves), "Experimental Film" by Gemma Files is a great supernatural detective story involving a lost, supposedly cursed film with a truly creepy folk horror bent. Love the channel!!
Thanks Margaret, and apologies in taking a while to get to this comment. Really glad you thought I got it right in the review. I've heard so many good things about Experimental Film - it's definitely on my list to get to at some point!
This is a fascinating discussion. I think you might have something about moving the line in people's minds. And it is a good point I wish more people understood. Why should people care if it is two consenting adults.
When I imagine being gay in a society of people to whom my rather innocent nature is seen as pure evil, I understand the desire to show them what pure evil actually looks like. Perhaps not to move that line but to highlight where it truly lies and where it does not.
I think the first time I heard about Hogg was in a J.G. Ballard interview where he praised it. I get your read about closeted Delany using the novel to take a swing at cultural norms. It's also interesting that Delany was hiding within a cultural norm of being married (given, an open marriage) to a woman and had a baby daughter when the book was coming together in the 1970s.
Readers should also consider that this book was written in 1973, a time whi h many readers don't understand. It was very different from today, especially when it comes from what was and wasn't a transgression at the time -- such as pornographic films, which were just starting to gain cultural acceptance and were certainly not what they have become in this internet age (they were far more erotic, with stories, and were primarily in movie theaters. The porn of the 70s and early 80s certainly "moved the needle" when it comes to depictions of sex in movies.) I think, too, that understanding the times in which Hogg was written, as well as when 120 Days of Sodom and The Story of the Eye were written, give the stories greater depth and understanding than the superficial "it was gross" analysis. Since Delaney also wrote non-graphic sci-fi and speculative fiction, one might even place Hogg in the speculative fiction category. If I were to delve further into the philosophical aspects of Delaney's era, as well as the writing of Foucault on sexuality, and put it together with my knowledge of the 42nd St -Times Square sexual circus of the 70s and 80s, I might be able to tell you what Delaney was aiming for with this novel. Or one of my porn scholar friends might know. But, these days I dont care to wrap my head around that stuff. Too busy reading about Putin's rise to power. That alone is scary enough!
This is interesting Olly, of course I just cut out of your video to have a look at Samuel Delaney and he looks and sounds to be a really intelligent, thoughtful man. But I want to hear the rest of your take on this.
I am not sure if I'll ever read the book. But I think it has value as witnessed here with the discussion it creates. My takeaway is learning how transgression can work or materialize in literature and also thinking a lot of terms connected to the books in general, and what do they mean. Delany made a filthy trip "over the border" and looks like he wanted maybe to test himself? I'm gonna go have a cup of coffee and think about this. Delany what have you done
Very interesting review of it, not that I've read it, but based on the description you gave of the book's content, an example of context of the author's life completely recontextualizing their creation. Apparently reconteztualizing isnt a word. Woopsies
Thanks for reading this so I don't have to. I won't read this in the foreseeable future but I enjoyed hearing your thoughts about it. I also looked up other covers and some of them are certainly.... interesting
The sensitive and detailed discussion of the uses and pitfalls of pornographic writing here immediately and powerfully spoke to something in my own life. 20 years ago, I published a 25,000-word novella based entirely upon fictionalization of my own experiences as a military policeman in a US Army stockade in Germany, during the early '70s. The book wove together (I believed) thought-provoking incidents and characters embedded in a relevant cloud of sociopolitical, psychological, ethical, spiritual, historical and musicological observations. A significant passage near the very end of the book suddenly and jarringly introduces a detailed - not gratuitously pornographic, but faithfully explicit - description of an extended, passionate and affectionate night of lovemaking between two young men: a life-changing experience for both, as the protagonist was truly, deeply in love and his enthusiastic and willing partner went away from that night troubled and in short order killed himself. Any alert and careful reader of the book - after absorbing the shock of suddenly realizing the main character had been a closeted gay all along - should also easily understand that every chapter of the preceding text contained myriads of subtle foreshadowing and that the jarring sex scene itself and its consequences were in fact the linchpin and foundation of the entire work, from the very first paragraphs. But of all the feedback I received from the few people I knew who read it, not one person (apart from the excellent translator who prepared the German edition) ever mentioned any of the plot points or philosophical reflections woven throughout the work as a whole; the only feedback I've ever received from anyone else has been: why did you have to include that explicit sex scene in it? My own dearly-departed father's only stated reaction to the book was: "it would have been a better read without it." I'll agree it would have been a better life without it; but not for the reasons most people seem to assume.
Out of curiosity, I purchased the book after watching this vid 2 months ago; I didn't last 3-4 pages and have put it down. I retreated to Ted Chiang's Story of Your Life and Others.
I have not read it and probably won't. But I imagine that there are a lot of people who will, and some of them will do so because they watched this video!
“Iwouldn’t want to share a cup of tea with anyone who got aroused while reading it.” What a perfect blurb for the front of the book ha ha.
Someone should tell the publisher
Im not sure why you'd want to share the tea, couldn't you have your own cup of tea? Is it necessary to share?
@@jamesgornall5731 I phrased it badly lol - I meant take tea with them
😂😂I laughed at that too. I said back to the screen. “You don’t know me!”😅
@@JennidavismakeupHouston LOL!
I stayed the entire 25 minutes for a book review of a book that I knew I never wanted to read. Really, well done, Olly. Nice job. I Hope you read something fluffy and cute after it. - 📚MJ
So true!
Thanks MJ - it was 3 times the length I normally aim for in review videos, but I didn't feel it was a book that could be talked about casually
@@CriminOllyBlog Agreed. 👏🏻
Me as well
I was recommended the video and was immediately interested.
Was watching this in bed last night, my wife on her phone was listening, half way through the video she asked me “what are you watching?” I replied “It’s a review of a book I have just finished”, another 5 minutes or so pass and she asks me, “Why would you read a book like that?”. My response “He made me read it” 😊
Ha ha ha! I'm happy to be able to give you a bit of air cover
@@CriminOllyBlog It’s true, I only read it because of your most disturbing book challenge :-) Not certain if I will finish 120 days….will see
Yes Olly nearly had me with 'Notice' by Heather Lewis, I'm wise to him now!
@@marpymellow3805if you can even get your hands on Notice, it’s basically unavailable online.
Never heard of it, ain’t gunna read it. Why would I?
Hello! I just wanted to thank you for all of your disturbing book reviews. I am pretty easily freaked out by a lot of the topics in these stories, but listening to you talk about them in a calm and honestly pretty soothing way has helped me a lot with my personal fears. Keep making great stuff!
Wow, thank you so much. I just press record and talk about books really, so comments like this always make me feel quite humble. 🥺
I’ve been binge watching all your reviews for hours and adding so many to my TR list over the summer. Keep up the great content 🖤
Thank you! Really glad you’re enjoying the channel 😊
After finding out that Delany is a supporter of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA), I won't be reading any of his work.
That is a completely understandable response. I wasn’t aware of that when I made the video
Yes. To hell with that monster
@@CriminOllyBlog it's right there on his Wikipedia page. I'm guessing research isn't really your thing...
@@catherinegentry7387 Big surprise. Why else would he write such filth?
@@catherinegentry7387 with all due respect, I don’t find not looking into something to understand it because of a disagreement with someone’s morality more problematic than looking at it face on. Many people don’t understand transgression and the reality of humanity. Don’t ever want to face it and therefore never actually understand it. We need to understand it to fight back. Delaney was abused, most likely groomed by older men and indoctrinated into the NAMBLA mindset as many gay men were in his time. There are reasons for all of this, and looking away/pretending like it doesn’t exist feels a whole lot more problematic to me than staring straight at it and trying to understand why humans behave these ways.
I accidentally own five copies of Hogg. It's such a wacky situation to be in.
😂😂😂 how the hell did you manage that?
Lmao what in the WORLD 😂
Never buy a book bundle at a convicted criminal's estate sale
A super, thoughtful reveiw. I think Samuel Delany is a fascinating man and you are probably very correct in saying that he was working through things in his writing of this book. Thank you for such an intelligent,rational, non exploitative review.
Thank you - really glad you found it interesting
I felt the same way with 100 days of sodom. Apparently its supposed to be a comedy but I took it very literally when I was in my 20's and was quite disgusted/horrified with it. When in fact it was written deliberately just to shock people with its vulgarity. I still loath it, regardless. And cannot scrub some of the lines out of my brain.
Yeah that really was a disgusting book
It gets even worse when you discover that sade was a rapist and pedo himself
And yet you kept reading .. 😂
I'm pretty sure he got off to it. The guy spent his life in and out of prison for abusing teenagers
I'd say political satire more than just regular comedy, but meant to shock all the same, and as with you it definitely took me a couple of years to realize this. The same way I didn't "get" Machiavelli's The Prince originally. Still 120 Days is poorly written, but I get it considering the context of which it was written. So I look at his Juliette and Justine novels as more apropos of his art and message. Would I recommend any of them: no. But I get their existence now.
21:31 You are the least pretentious UA-camr I’ve seen. You’re very patient and humble. I really appreciate your thorough explanations. You’re brilliant at explaining things in a way that makes it simple for us, without patronising us. 😊
Well now I'm blushing. Thank you, Mary
Thank you Olly for taking one for the team when it comes to these disturbing books. I do hope you are taking breaks in between to read something a little more pleasant.
Don't worry, I am!
I may sound like a conspiracy theorist, but they have been trying to normalize it since the swinging seventies. The first advocacy groups were founded during that decade.
Delany is basically given a free pass by everyone for having the right politics and being a double minority. He said in an interview (hard to locate online anymore, I had to use the Wayback Machine to find Will Shetterly's blog), that he thinks his father touched him when he was very young, but he still respects him and does not bear any scars. And that he was sexually active in his childhood, which is the reason why he supported NAMBLA in the first place. He saw, that kids caught with adults were treated like juvenile delinquents and he wanted change. He also said, that he and a friend of his had one of those encounters with a local building superintendent, but they initiated it and it was nothing serious. He also supported the late Scott O'Hara (a gay activist and porn actor with a self-destructing lifestyle), who was pretty pissed at politically correct gay leaders for leaving queer kids in the dust. Delany talks a lot about consent, but he doubles down on everything. This rhymes with what a so-called non-offending nonce, a disturbing, internet famous man named Todd Nickerson wrote about his kind. That they should be seen as people similar to swimming instructors. Scary stuff.
@Nightbreed24 There are so many authors in the sci fi and fantasy world from NYC and the west coast that advocated for it and got away with disgusting endorsements and memberships with groups supporting other really monstrous...interests. I entirely believe that the only reason there haven't been any major exposes on these people is because genre fiction doesn't generate nearly enough interest in the public as movies or politics.
I mentioned this before, but this is such a thoughtful and measured review of an extremely difficult book. Great video!
Thank you so much! :)
I actually prefer hearing about peoples reactions more than the analysis. It's good to have both, but it's also something so personal the way we experience a book. I actually read very little horror nowadays, and haven't read really 'hard' horror like you do a lot, so listening to it is a good way for me without having to read (potentially triggering) books. :) thank yew
Thanks Elli - glad you found the video interesting and that my channel helps you to experience different kinds of books
@@CriminOllyBlog Thank you! 🥰
When I first started listening to this review I thought to myself 'Samuel R Delany' that name sounds familiar. Then I realised that I read some of his SF stuff from a speculative fiction class I did in University. I had no idea he'd written something like this. Kinda caught me off guard
Thank you for providing an excellent , thought provoking review for a book I don't think I will read. While I personally don't think it's wise for my emotional well being to read these kinds of books, I deeply appreciate the discussion. I did used to read books of similar ilk, but was in a more precarious emotional state at the time.
That was a very thoughtful and useful review, Olly -- thank you! I appreciate the way you acknowledge the process of "sitting with" a book after you're done with the actual reading. Of course there are books we love immediately, and books that make us wonder why we read them, much less why someone wrote them. But I think it's important to give a story time to settle in, to let our minds pick at it and figure out our relationship to the material, especially if it's something upsetting. Even if we decide we hate it, the process allows us to fulfill our part of the author/reader "contract."
I do completely agree with that, and I think the more complex a book is, the longer "sitting with' period will be. Even thought I waited before making this video I'm not sure I'm even close to processing Hogg
This is a book I've known only by reputation, and it's unlikely I'll ever try to steel myself to actually find it and read any of it. That said, Delany certainly has a secure position as one of the most esteemed science fiction writers of his generation, so I don't doubt his literary talent and seriousness.
I was thinking during this discussion of the philosophy of aesthetics that developed in classical India, involving the concept of 'rasa', which in Sanskrit literally means 'flavor'. The 'rasa' of a work of art is the dominant emotional mood inspired in the witness by the work of art, there being at least eight such recognized moods, namely the erotic, the marvellous, the heroic, the wrathful, the sad, the mirthful, the odious, and the quiescent. A work of art was held to be successful insofar as it aroused at least one of these 'rasas' in the witness. According to these criteria, a work such as 'Hogg' could be held up as an artistic triumph merely by inspiring disgust in the reader, such an aim and reaction being recognized in this system as perfectly legitimate goals by an artist. Art was seen as fundamentally a field for the play of emotions rather than cerebral intellectual realization, and all human emotions were worthy attributes in an artist's palette.
That's a concept I hadn't heard of before but it's really interesting. Hogg certainly achieves something
hmmmm...I survived reading The Marquis when I was 12. Not sure this book would leave me unscathed at 70.
Too busy trying to find a reason for not sticking my head in the oven as is.😱
I'd steer clear of it!
The book is total crap but it really does make The Marquis read like a fairytale its another level
Among the other things Samuel R. Delany wrote were issues 202 and 203 of _Wonder Woman_ in 1972.
Well damn now I want to read those
That's mad!
WOW! 😮
Wow!
@@mediumjohnsilver An 1972 just happens to be the year he completed Hogg.
Fascinating. I have no intention of reading Hogg but it’s existence conflicts somewhat with some views I have held for a long time. Firstly I am completely pro freedom of speech. People should be allowed to think and say whatever they believe even if the vast majority of people don’t like it. This is why I currently hate the modern trend to bar people with views different to your own. If you are unable to debate logically opposing views on any matter but to just say I am right and you aren’t and thus can’t speak shows you to be a weak intellectual coward.
Secondly the natural consequence of believing in freedom of speech is an opposition to censorship. The opposition of freedom of speech and the piling on of censorship and propaganda are the first steps taken by the worst kind of totalitarian dictatorships.
But maybe just maybe there is stuff that crosses a line (if such a line exists).
That is why things like Hogg conflict me.
Great points (and sorry for taking so long to reply!). It occurs to me about Hogg that's another interpretation of Hogg - that it's an extreme expression of freedom of speech
Really excellent review Olly, fascinating. Definitely don't plan to read this but I really enjoyed listening to your thoughts
Thank you so much, Crystal
I still don't know if I'd actually read this book - again, the question is always "why would I subject myself to this?" But your video was very interesting and definitely gave me a different perspective on it.
Glad you found the video interesting - it definitely is a book that one subjects oneself to rather than simply reads
I read this book in middle school 😢 Big mistake.
My parents didn’t preview my books before I read them because I was well behaved and did well in school.
My god! That's too horrible to even consider - hope you've recovered
noooooo 😶
That is definitely an oops moment you had there dalpaengi
Your a G
@@dalpaengi but I bet as a result, you are an informed and fascinating person.
Just started reading this. Challenging is the word! The only reason I've had for DNFing books in the past was due to them not piquing my interest, but the whole introduction to Hogg was turning my stomach. Wish me luck...
Good luck!
Unironically, this review makes me want to get a copy of this book ASAP 😂
Ha - yeah I was the same when I heard about the book
Ikr! 😔 it's our human nature. We are what we are, curious. 😏
Such a great review! I read this year's ago and went in blind. I barely made it through. It still makes me feel icky thinking about it.
Wow, reading it unprepared must have been an experience
I am a huge Delaney fan (I think his book Dhlagren is likely to be seen as one of the great classics) but I could not read this. I tried, but I did not get far. Like you I really struggle to understand why he even wrote it.
I do really need to try his SF!
Your content is exceptional, Olly! Insightful as always. "Hogg" sounds more difficult than even Dennis Cooper, but based on the information that you provided about the author, I just might give this novel a try. It might be too much for me, but your review was very compelling and I'm a big fan of trangressive literature. Thanks for all the great videos!
Thank you so much - really glad you're enjoying the videos!
There are so many "Disturbing" daily events happening....the problem is... will these events be "Normalized" because we're so used to hearing about them ?
I for one don't think they will - I think there is a difference between things society find unacceptable or distasteful and things that are truly wrong. And I think we tend to be able to recognise the difference
We hear about bizzare and awful things every day. What used to shock me...I barely pause. The things that used to happen every year now happen every day. Our children are not safe anywhere, not in school, not on the internet. Not anywhere. We've become so violent...gun violence is so common...children are shooting and being shot...men don't just commit suicide, they take their family with them. Mass shootings are commonplace. We're a society in decline.
@@miapdx503 I wonder sometimes if we have an in built defence mechanism that stops us dwelling too much on the horror of things when they do start feeling commonplace (like mass shootings in the US). It would become overwhelming if each of them affected us as much as they should.
@@miapdx503 All the things you mention are so true. Soon there will be no public schools due to unsafe conditions. I wish I could remain optimistic,but that would be naive. The reality is, it's not getting better. People are afraid to speak up,afraid they will be labeled. Did we really lose touch with right, and wrong ? Violence, and destruction are acceptable because, people are expressing themselves. All violence is wrong. No excuses.
@@CriminOllyBlog I sometimes wonder.
I am Asher Farlow, I am a Transgressive author. This genre can be meld into pornography, erotica, horror, dystopia, adventure, many many things including grimdark. I am very careful about walking a thin lime between realism and extremism. I do not wish to shock people but to be as raw and real as possible depending on what the situation is I never hold back the content but the wording mustn't ever cross the line into absurdity or evil.
What a fantastically detailed and informative review! There should very UA-cam awards!!
Kudos to you for writing such an objective and thoughtful review on such extraordinarily difficult subject matter. While I do enjoy books with disturbing or dark topics, I think this is certainly one that I will skip.
Thank you! And yes skipping it is almost certainly a good idea
Fascinating. No idea how looking for a Gene Wolfe audio book brought me to this video, but this was a genuinely interesting watch. The book is absolutely not for me, but I think you raise a lot of interesting points about the motivation. I think there is also a big disconnect between fiction/ fantasy and real life that many find impossible to surmount. This, coupled with the understandable revulsion many feel about extreme topics such as abuse, lead many to say something is bad and wrong because they don't like it and for it to happen in real life would be awful. This doesn't have to be the case. I believe the leading research and experts reiterate that fantasy and fiction do not have causation with real acts, but there is the inability for some to hear this and only to focus on correlation. Anyways, great video and thanks for discussing a book I would never want to read, but find fascinating.
Thank you! Glad you found it interesting. Also, yay Gene Wolfe!
Gene Wolfe is the best
As an airport employee I recommend picking up a pulp, manga, or novella at a local comic book or regular bookstore for your carry on. Something light and easy to read while waiting for take-off. Not a big fan of airport bookshops, since they nothing but Crihton and King.
My brother bought me a copy of Bertín Roueche’s Feral on your recommendation because he knows how much I like The Birds. Read it on a flight to New Hampshire this weekend. Great recommendation!
Glad you enjoyed it!
This is probably my favorite video of yours, very well-presented and thought out. I am also thankful that you put a small bit of reading stress to bed for me. Delany's "Dahlgren" is one of my absolute favorite novels, and I have been thinking about "Hogg" for a long time, wondering if I should read it because I love Delany's other work and because I am something of a completist when it comes to my favorite writers, or if I should leave it alone due to its subject matter. I think I'll skip it, based on this review.
Thank you so much for saying that! I definitely want to try some of his other books and Dhalgren seems like the one to go for
I felt your explanation was absolutely solid and I very much agreed for why this book would exist. Thank you for your time!
You're very welcome!
Thank you a great review Olly , you explained very well. It helps me along the way if I finish this book Hogg .
Glad it was helpful!
@@CriminOllyBlog 🙂
Hogg is the only novel I have read that genuinely rattled my cage. And I consider myself a hardened reader.
I'm not expecting a faithful adaptation to the big screen anytime soon or ever. 😂
Yeah I have found myself thinking of it a lot since I finished it. I thought I'd heard Tom Hanks had signed up to play Hogg, but maybe I'm wrong.
@@CriminOllyBlog Harvey Weinstein might be a better choice. He is the actual embodiment of a character like Hogg. Tom Hanks would likely faint while you pitched the movie to him. I don't think Woke Hollywood could handle material like this, even though alot of what happens in the book probably takes place in the industry itself.
Not sure I'd want to see this movie. If the adaptation of "American Psycho" would have been true to the source material, it would have been a movie made by "Toetag Pictures" with special FX by Fred Vogel.
@@MrSeedi76 Brett Easton Ellis stole the rat in the tube scenario from De Sade. And I own all the Fred Vogel August Underground films. HOGG trumps them all. Hogg makes Fred Vogel look like Fred Durst 😂
@@acidburns4046 I ordered it yesterday. Not sure I'm "looking forward" to reading it but the review peaked my interest.
Been a serious horror fan for 30 years now and watched most of the "disturbing movies" that top the lists (like most Toetag movies - not all however), so... I support people writing extreme literature.
The last one that could probably called extreme that I read was "Body Art" by Kristopher Triana. I'm more into extreme movies than books but every now and then I read one.
This is the kind of book that makes me wish you could sell "used" ebooks, that's the easiest way to get stuff like this but then you're stuck with it forever. I know my e-library is already deeply tainted, but I don't like adding more filth to it.
Yeah you can just completely delete them I guess
Lmao. Ebooks aren't real, they can't hurt you
@@1WEareBUFO1
Buti don't want to own "The Man of the House Meets the Easter Bunny" forever just bc I read it once as a joke. (Yes that's real and yes it's gross lol)
ive never heard of this book before, out of curiosity i went to read the plot of it and while reading i could hear my heart beating as i was in just so much horror, shock and utter disgust over how someone wrote and published this?! i think if the narrator was aged up to be 18 i wouldn't have felt as uncomfortable as i did when i was reading the plot, that said big thanks and props to you for reading it and making a review, ill steer clear of this one i think...
It's definitely a book I'd recommend steering clear of
I appreciate your videos because I’m interested in disturbing books in theory, but I have no desire to read them in reality. I have nightmares already, I don’t need to read something that’s gonna give me constant new ones.
That's a very good reason for not reading them. Glad my videos help you experience them safely
Wow.... That was SO interesting.... I am definately gonna pick up that book 😍 Sound like an absolute nightmare to read..... Pheeew..... Thanks.... A LOT ❤️
Hope you make it through it
I love your thoughtful, measured reviews Olly. I read Hogg during a period exploring transgressive literature in my early 20s. My main reaction to it was simple disgust which says more about me at that time than it - I found 120 Days of Sodom mostly dull, for example. I see so much more to Hogg through your eyes, which is a mark of a truly successful piece of art criticism I think. I'm not going to reread it, but you've left me with a richer experience of it.
Oh wow. Thank you. That’s a really lovely piece of feedback
@@CriminOllyBlog you're very welcome and it's sincerely meant. I love your videos and I've been meaning to comment for ages!
@@Tessothemorning So glad!
I read 120 Days and it read like the Marquis de Sade just typed his favorite sex acts into an AI and waited to see what new ideas it would give him.
I tried this one too, but-surprise!-I couldn't make it all the way through.
@@theotherther1 Ha! yeah that's a good description
I think you did a wonderful job dissecting a very difficult book to discuss. And one I don't think I can actually read.
Thank you! But yeah I wouldn't recommend reading it!
@@CriminOllyBlog that, Cows and The Girl Next Door are on my I don't think so list lol
@@bluwillowsoaps Yeah Cows I definitely wouldn't both with. TGND is horrific but does feel somewhat worthwhile
@@CriminOllyBlog I just can't. I watched the movie American Crime which is probably the mildest version of that story and I couldn't take it. I'm not sure why it affects me so badly. Of course it's horrible but I watch/read a lot of horrible stuff lol I just can't do that one.
@@bluwillowsoaps yeah it is an absolutely appalling case
I read “Wham, George Michael and me.” right after this book, it helped, a little. My mind still drifted back to Hogg
It definitely stays with you! Sorry it took me so long to reply!
In my search for the bandwidth of the human experience I stumbled upon your channel. Thank you very much.
Great job. That took a lot of courage and strength of character.
Thank you!
@@CriminOllyBlog You're certainly welcome.
"We know, man, that there is what we want, there is what should be, and there is what is: and don't none of them got anything to do with each other unless- - unless we make it, and the only way you can get from one to the other is to know that, don't you see? And they don't know that, so that makes 'em crazy-" Hogg
I have read from the first to the last page. Took me 4 months. Read the before word, the after word. Gave it 5 stars. This nook finally made me feel something. But it wasnt horror, it was entertainment. For reference i am a 31 yo woman and english isnt my first language, french is. I am thoroughly jaded and always on the quest of finding a though read to seek my teeth into.
Ill be now forever chasing the rush i felt reading Hogg.
I watched this video halfway. Read the book and now i am here making my review after finishing the second half of the video. Thank you for the review.
First video of yours alive seen, popped up in my feed. No desire to ever read this, not even out of curiosity, but really enjoyed your thoughts and moving on to binge your videos lol
Thank you! Most of my other videos are about books people might actually want to read!
@@CriminOllyBlog I have put a few on my to read list already!
I just bought it, I'm curious as to weather I can finish it or not, so thank you for this.
Interesting to listen to your take on the content. I hope the tea helped ☕️… I need to lie down having just watched your video 🥺
Thank you! And yes, tea always helps!
I am not one of those people that corrects people especially over trivial spelling, pronunciations or periods of time especially if they are only off one or two or more years but I believe the book came out in 1994/1995 and not in 1969 which is considerably and specifically 25 years later than you mentioned which are totally different times and environments in America between 1969 and 1994/1995…But I have read Delany and Dhalgren and Babel-17 are my favorites…Never read this one and not sure I want too…I am not prudish in any way just it will take me being in the right mindset to digest a book with this content…Thank You for the video and keep up the good works 👍🏻
You’re right that it was published in 94/95. I think the majority of it was written in 1969 though
I was not aware of that fact…Thank You…
Keep up the good works 👍🏻
I read Delaney’s absolutely fantastic science fiction books before (albeit VERY hesitantly) picking up Hogg and I couldn’t help but feel as if I was being transported into another world again, but one whose morals were the complete opposite of ours. I’m not sure if this was a coping mechanism on my part lol that was just how I processed it. The world of Hogg was THAT alien to me in terms of how nonchalantly depraved it is.
I've been working thru this book for almost a year now. I'd made a point of reading at least a few pages every morning w/my coffee & every evening w/my wine - was really dedicated to this book. That ended when I got to the toe cheese. I'm not saying it was my line in the sand, but I am saying it's been slow-going, since. All that said, Delany is just a fabulous writer & can convey simple beauty in the ugliest of settings, being viewed by the ugliest of ppl. Still reading.
I learned so much from this video, thank you! :) COWS scars me to this day....I dropped the book off at the Goodwill after reading it because I felt weird having it in my house (Apologies to whatever unfortunate, unsuspecting soul picked that one up on their thrift run lol ) Looking forward to giving Story of the Eye a shot though!
Glad you found it interesting! Story of the Eye is definitely more beguiling than either Hogg or Cows
Cows is, by far, the most disgusting, unpleasant book I’ve ever read- and I’ve read Hogg! I couldn’t eat certain foods for weeks after reading it, and there’s parts of it that I absolutely cannot let myself think about or I’ll start to feel sick. I can handle reading descriptions of lots of unpleasant things, but scatalogical stuff and descriptions of people eating disgusting things (especially when it’s both of those things combined, as it so often is in Cows) are just too much for me.
Cows is a book that should’ve stayed unwritten. It seems like Matthew Stokoe was trying to write a work of transgressive fiction that was a commentary on the futility of striving for a picture perfect life, but he just wasn’t able to pull it off, and he wound up putting the majority of his energy into writing the most miserable and excessively repulsive book possible.
I read this once, and promptly gave away my copy 😅
That's a pretty reasonable response!
The actual quote was in response to the Judge being asked, 'Can you define pornography?' to which he replied, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."
Also good!
Thank you for doing this so I don't ever have to 🙏😭
I believe that people should be able to express themselves artistically in whatever manner they seem fit. I am 100% against book banning, but if someone came to be to sign a petition to ban this book, it would be very hard not to.
Hi Olly, it was written in 1969 but not published until 1995 after some rewrites so even until recently (1995 is recent to me!) Delaney must have still thought it had important things to say, which I find very interesting. and the word you where looking for is coprophagia - which my spell checker refuses to acknowledge, big fat red line under it even though it is spelt correctly. Now THAT I find very interesting! It's almost as if by denying the word the act cannot exist.
Ha! I love the idea of your spell check keeping you pure
@@CriminOllyBlog I find it disturbing in a way I can't really articulate and it feels like it has resonance with the book you have just read.
One thing about the book covers of Kindle editions of books is that no matter when you had purchased the book Amazon can change the cover entirely and you will have to look at a cover that is entirely different from what you remember purchasing. I remember purchasing the digital version of Stephen King's IT in 2014 or 2015, before the 2016 It Chapter 1 movie (Atrocious movie with some good scenes, but still atrocious IMO). The cover I had originally was an all white background over which, in addition to text there was a graphic which you knew represented something like a clown's face, but not obviously. It had a red circle in the center for what was supposed to be the clown's red nose , but could pass as a red balloon, and a symmetrical toothy red smile. I liked it because it was abstract enough to be interpreted as something else that isn't related to a clown's face. Then there was basic stylized text.
When the movie had come out in 2016 shortly after that the cover was changed. Also white background, but now there was a clear face of the clown from the movie. I really hated how they just switched my kindle book cover to the movie tie in cover. It means that if the publisher of some book, or some other party had the power to make Amazon change the written contents of digital books they could do that too. I am assuming they probably do that already. Like imagine if either Stephen King, or some other persons decided to remove the most infamous and distasteful part from that book? They probably would. But I think its not right to do that.
Yeah Amazon can definitely change the content of books, but I think they let you know and you can opt to download the new version or stick with the one you had.
One exception to this is cases where they discover the publisher didn't have the rights to the book in which case they delete it from customer's kindles and send a refund. The most high profile book this happened with was (ironically) 1984
I feel like this book was written in a snit. Delany was looking out his window at crime, gay men being beaten and killed, black men being beaten and killed, and everything kind of overlaid with this type of moral condemnation which blamed the victims for being somehow morally sick. And what Delany seems to have done is say, "Oh, yeah? You think we're sick and immoral? Try this on for size!" It's a breathtaking literary tantrum.
New sub here. I'm looking forward to many more of your very interesting reviews and introspection 💜
Thanks so much for subbing! Hope you enjoy my other content as much
The difference between gay sex and the rest of the book is that gay sex between two consenting adults isn’t violent. Books like this didn’t normalize it. I sincerely hope none of the rest of the book “becomes a little more normalized.” Violent rape, incest, and pedophilia should never be normalized. It has no place in this world. The author lived with a hellscape in his mind, each story a deep jagged scar. I can’t imagine the damage you do to yourselves reading these books. How can you heal from that?
Completely agree that those things shouldn't be normalised.
The term "Shock value" is unanimously considered as a "bad thing" that should be cut out of a book. But I've never understood this. It's not that the shocking part is "shocking", it's that it doesn't fit into anything else and the tone of the book. That's why shock value fails, it feels detached and like a cheap trick to cause tension and emotions.
But "shock value" still has VALUE. It's in the damn term. If your shock value is in a proper tone and experience, it will be valuable even if it doesn't say anything.
Great review, great conclusion. Thanks
Thank you so much
I’ve always been able to separate the art from the artist, could listen to a Micheal Jackson tune without thinking he’s a kiddy fiddler, which he probably was. I think that disconnect means I can just about read anything without being mortified. The key for me is does the story move, not where it goes particularly. Another great vid. A lot of sci fi writers have very dodgy pasts though..
Thank you! Glad you found the video useful. And yeah it's very often necessary to separate the creator from the content
I think Delany is half white. it’s my understanding that he’s biracial not just African American, he’s also white American. And He did share that he was sexually assaulted at 6. He also supported the controversial group NAMBA. I do agree his experiences with Racism and colorism and navigating white gay society as a biracial man played a roll in the writing of the book. When you’re half white you don’t fit in completely with white society, and you’re not completely accepted in black communities either. Causing all kinds of identity and belonging issues. I’m a Black American ( 2 black parents) btw. I do worry that books like this could push boundaries for exploitation of children. Lowering the age of consent, child marriage, etc. unchecked Patriarchy is dangerous. Even if they are gay men, they still wield power and influence. This was great content. I had never heard of Hogg or Delany until you. Thank you 🙏🏾
Funny that you assume women in power positions aren't just as capable of corruption and misuse.
Have you read
FINAL TRUTH; The Autobiography of a Serial Killer by serial killer Donald "Pee Wee" Gaskins (and Wilton Earle) ???
He was (in my opinion) one of the sickest, meanest and most dangerous serial killers of all time.
He wrote Final Truth while sitting on death row, here in my home state of South Carolina.
I've always heard that book is such a scary, intense and brutal book, that it is often required reading in some college Criminal Justice classes. Because the book is written by Pee Wee himself., and in his own words..., with his deep southern drawl...., it is truly horrifying that he was on the loose as long as he was.
It (to me) is by far.., the most brutal and sickening book ever written on OR by a real serial killer !!
I read final truth. Thw mom and the 2 year old jfc
thanks for this, it really gave me something to think about!
Yes, society builds up a tolerance to things, and they become mainstream.
For sure
@@CriminOllyBlog sadly
I haven't read the book, I had to take a peek about its contents. I'm a lawyer currently practicing Civil Rights Law in NYC however we are a nation turning more violent everyday. I do hold several degrees, one being in psychopathology and practiced a different law previously. I was never a defense lawyer, although those that are don't ever want to handle these cases. I think people read books of this nature to come to terms with evil. They know it exists, but does it really exist on this level? Is it really possible? What drives a person? Rape...how can there be ANY defense? Its not about sex. Rape is about power. This is the most primal example. Torture, bodily fluids and materials are unimaginable to the majority of people but it comes from a dark place in a person's psychological make-up. However it doesn't give the right to commit crimes as other live normal lives and come from heinous backgrounds.
I love horror movies and horror books but not with children or animals being hurt or rape, or gratuitous sex. I want a scare but not to be traumatized, I am daily in reality.
Completely agree
Defense attorney, civil rights attorney, and horror movie lover here with boundaries that keep me away from extremist art. I even hesitated to watch this review.
Going off topic here but to your question that I think it's rhetorical but that every defense attorney is asked seriously, 'how can there be a defense?' It's about protecting & defending constitutional rights, advocating for the accused- accusation isn't guilt, making the state prove its case. Lawyers who are SA survivors do defend people accused of rape. I have. And there are cases I will not take. There are cases individual lawyers cannot take because the case is so disturbing to that specific attorney that they wouldn't be able to effectively do their jobs. There are some extremely strong defense attorneys who take on those cases.
My frustration is that people read books like this to come to terms with evil but still ignore evil IRL. It feels like selfish satisfaction of saying 'yes, my eyes are open to its existence. The end.'
11:29 Thank you so much for explaining- so eloquently- what transgressive literature is. I heard you reference it in another video and you’ve saved me having to Google. 😅
Glad it was useful! Someone suggested I do a video on definitions so I may do that soon
Some transgressive literature can be transcendent, William s Burroughs for example lived on the edge of normal life as a queer person but also had an amazing structure and thought to some outstanding documents of the outsider
Skip to @13:00 if you actually want to know what the book is about… bc geez
This is a good narration. I genuinely don’t understand why people are giving you crap. They clicked on a 25 minute video that is obviously a very thorough explanation, and could have clicked off. Thanks for making this video! I needed something to listen to while I was at work.
Yeah I didn’t really get it either. I think some people just like giving strangers crap. 😂
Thanks for taking the time to comment
@@CriminOllyBlog Yeah, people are just crappy online nowadays. No problemo! I enjoyed your video.
16:12 Would you say it’s shocking for the sake of being shocking? As in, do you think this author just thought “what are the most taboo and hideous things in life? Let’s chuck them in”? Or do you think there’s an actual storyline that’s well thought out and clever, with a reason for the level of depravity?
Yeah it occurred to me after posting the review that I didn't even talk about the story. There kind of is one, but it's largely there to tie the acts of violence together. And yes, I do think he went out of his way to be shocking
Excellent discussion of a difficult book. Delany has many other wonderful books for those that prefer not to go down that rabbit hole. Babel-17 is one I often recommend for people who enjoy reading but don’t generally read science fiction.
I really do need to try some of his SF. And thank you
Babel-17 was entertaining but almost everything he wrote about languages..... was not..... right....
I was off UA-cam for a bit so I'm coming late to the party here, lol, but I just wanted to say I think you hit the nail on the head about the purpose of this book. Its literary merit lies in the fact that his purpose in writing it was to gain more mainstream acceptance for homosexuality and homosexual erotica in the pornographic "mainstream". He never shied away from erotic content, especially later in his career, and I think his resentment and anger (justified) was festering within him. This book was practically an act of sexual exorcism. It is disgusting, repetitive and filled with transgressive material, but I think it was like a boil he felt he had to lance. You put it perfectly. This is a book more people should be aware of, even if few of them read it. Thanks for devoting your time to it so some of us don't have to, lol.
Also, if you like the whole "Cursed film" trope (moving on to your book from the shelves), "Experimental Film" by Gemma Files is a great supernatural detective story involving a lost, supposedly cursed film with a truly creepy folk horror bent.
Love the channel!!
Thanks Margaret, and apologies in taking a while to get to this comment. Really glad you thought I got it right in the review.
I've heard so many good things about Experimental Film - it's definitely on my list to get to at some point!
Wow....The Twits is one of my all time favorites! Glad to hear it mentioned.
Ha ha I’d forgotten I’d mentioned it in this one 😂
This is a fascinating discussion. I think you might have something about moving the line in people's minds. And it is a good point I wish more people understood. Why should people care if it is two consenting adults.
Yeah, there are far more important things to worry about in the world than what 2 grown ups do in their bedroom
When I imagine being gay in a society of people to whom my rather innocent nature is seen as pure evil, I understand the desire to show them what pure evil actually looks like. Perhaps not to move that line but to highlight where it truly lies and where it does not.
That’s a very good way of putting it
Hi Olly, the word for Bataille's book is Neurotica, I think..
That's a great term!
Fancy meeting you here! 🤘
Also wanted to let you know the algorithm recommended it to me so yay! It's working how it should (for once lol)
Oh lol! Hello Gracie!
I think the first time I heard about Hogg was in a J.G. Ballard interview where he praised it. I get your read about closeted Delany using the novel to take a swing at cultural norms. It's also interesting that Delany was hiding within a cultural norm of being married (given, an open marriage) to a woman and had a baby daughter when the book was coming together in the 1970s.
That is an interesting point. I hadn't even consider that side of his personal life, although I did know he was married
Readers should also consider that this book was written in 1973, a time whi h many readers don't understand. It was very different from today, especially when it comes from what was and wasn't a transgression at the time -- such as pornographic films, which were just starting to gain cultural acceptance and were certainly not what they have become in this internet age (they were far more erotic, with stories, and were primarily in movie theaters. The porn of the 70s and early 80s certainly "moved the needle" when it comes to depictions of sex in movies.)
I think, too, that understanding the times in which Hogg was written, as well as when 120 Days of Sodom and The Story of the Eye were written, give the stories greater depth and understanding than the superficial "it was gross" analysis. Since Delaney also wrote non-graphic sci-fi and speculative fiction, one might even place Hogg in the speculative fiction category. If I were to delve further into the philosophical aspects of Delaney's era, as well as the writing of Foucault on sexuality, and put it together with my knowledge of the 42nd St -Times Square sexual circus of the 70s and 80s, I might be able to tell you what Delaney was aiming for with this novel. Or one of my porn scholar friends might know. But, these days I dont care to wrap my head around that stuff. Too busy reading about Putin's rise to power. That alone is scary enough!
This is interesting Olly, of course I just cut out of your video to have a look at Samuel Delaney and he looks and sounds to be a really intelligent, thoughtful man. But I want to hear the rest of your take on this.
Yeah, he does come across as a nice guy in interviews - completely at odds with this book!
I am not sure if I'll ever read the book. But I think it has value as witnessed here with the discussion it creates. My takeaway is learning how transgression can work or materialize in literature and also thinking a lot of terms connected to the books in general, and what do they mean. Delany made a filthy trip "over the border" and looks like he wanted maybe to test himself? I'm gonna go have a cup of coffee and think about this. Delany what have you done
Very interesting review of it, not that I've read it, but based on the description you gave of the book's content, an example of context of the author's life completely recontextualizing their creation. Apparently reconteztualizing isnt a word. Woopsies
LOL
No thank you, I can’t stand anything with hurting children. But Thank you again 😔😔😔😔
Totally get it
@@CriminOllyBlog Thank you
Thanks for reading this so I don't have to. I won't read this in the foreseeable future but I enjoyed hearing your thoughts about it. I also looked up other covers and some of them are certainly.... interesting
Glad you found it useful, Michelle! And sorry it took me so long to reply!
I had a senior seminar in college about Samuel Delaney and he was a very interesting guy! Babble 17 is great and there is no nasty bits in it.
I definitely need to try some of his SF
Thanks for this. I'll give Hogg and Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders another chance.
I just found your little party here and have to say I like you. I really really like you. Aloha
Thank you!
My friend Greg @Another Bibliophile Reads DNF'd it . . . Good God what a horrific book!
Yeah it really is!
I tried reading this book , it’s going to take me a year . The brutal details made me sick .
@@badrad9226 It really is extreme
Just subbed. I won't read the book but I appreciate your review.
What is the name of the book you mentioned at the end, the vampire one, please?
Thanks so much for watching and subbing.
The book was Throat Sprockets by Tim Lucas. Unfortunately it’s out of print so not that easy to come by
The sensitive and detailed discussion of the uses and pitfalls of pornographic writing here immediately and powerfully spoke to something in my own life. 20 years ago, I published a 25,000-word novella based entirely upon fictionalization of my own experiences as a military policeman in a US Army stockade in Germany, during the early '70s. The book wove together (I believed) thought-provoking incidents and characters embedded in a relevant cloud of sociopolitical, psychological, ethical, spiritual, historical and musicological observations. A significant passage near the very end of the book suddenly and jarringly introduces a detailed - not gratuitously pornographic, but faithfully explicit - description of an extended, passionate and affectionate night of lovemaking between two young men: a life-changing experience for both, as the protagonist was truly, deeply in love and his enthusiastic and willing partner went away from that night troubled and in short order killed himself.
Any alert and careful reader of the book - after absorbing the shock of suddenly realizing the main character had been a closeted gay all along - should also easily understand that every chapter of the preceding text contained myriads of subtle foreshadowing and that the jarring sex scene itself and its consequences were in fact the linchpin and foundation of the entire work, from the very first paragraphs. But of all the feedback I received from the few people I knew who read it, not one person (apart from the excellent translator who prepared the German edition) ever mentioned any of the plot points or philosophical reflections woven throughout the work as a whole; the only feedback I've ever received from anyone else has been: why did you have to include that explicit sex scene in it? My own dearly-departed father's only stated reaction to the book was: "it would have been a better read without it."
I'll agree it would have been a better life without it; but not for the reasons most people seem to assume.
Out of curiosity, I purchased the book after watching this vid 2 months ago; I didn't last 3-4 pages and have put it down. I retreated to Ted Chiang's Story of Your Life and Others.
I have not read it and probably won't. But I imagine that there are a lot of people who will, and some of them will do so because they watched this video!
Perhaps!
@@CriminOllyBlog perhaps I too . . . . Lol