Hey guys, just wanted to say I intentionally focused more on LGB, etc. (i.e. sexual orientation) topics and public figures in this one. I saved most stuff regarding gender identity topic for the Naoto video. I personally don't read her as trans, but the conceptualization of her dungeon/shadow makes it a pertinent subject to discuss. Also another note, thanks for bearing with me when I generalize some cultural regions & their relations to other areas of the world. Even though America is way more on individualistic spectrum than many of the European/other Western cultures, the way philosophical thought shaped the sense of self and the way institutions are viewed across the Western world is much more similar to each other than Confucian and Buddhist inspired East Asia. Also in general with these broad overview analyses, tons of stuff I have to leave out since the main points of the video would get lost in tangents (each one of these has like 5+ pages worth of cuts). Thank you for your patience... I get my health issues makes the long time it takes to make each one of these behemoth analyses take even *longer* since the numbers of hours I can function well are limited. If you liked this video would really appreciate the likes, shares, etc.! Thanks! 🎮TWITCH: www.twitch.tv/ladyvirgilia 🐤TWITTER: @VirgiliaLady twitter.com/VirgiliaLady 🌟PATREON: www.patreon.com/LadyVirgilia
Always a pleasure to hear your Socio-cultural analysis of these characters and I feel like these generalisations you mention are at least an interesting for me to consider. If anything it gives me a chance to consider how similar or different my own Sinic cultural background is from the Japonic background of the games here All that said, do take care of yourself too 🙏 Can’t wait to watch this video in full
I hope honestly never saw naoto as trans either more or less her own thing she was dealing with not being taken seriously being a woman and being more masculine I personally ignore the toxic people who flame and treat their head canons like gospel both sides really its good to speculate on such topics without being A flame sorry for this stupid visual novel sized comment keep up the entertaining content.
Naoto and Kanji are always such touchy subjects in the persona fandom and it always bugs me. Its totally fine to not read Naoto as trans, and even not read Kanji as gay - plenty of people have questions about their sexuality without ultimately deciding that they're trans or gay or whatever, so its still fine to have those stories... but it bothers me to no end when people treat LGBT fans as crazy for taking these stories and identifying with them and headcanoning them when they lack many other good official forms of representation, both in the Persona fandom and media at large. Whenever people DO show interest in Kanji or Naoto as viewed through an LGBT lens, you always have people swooping in to remind them that Naoto isn't trans, and Kanji's never confirmed to like guys, as if a persons headcanon or particular way they appreciate a character threatens to destroy the fandom as we know it. Regardless of how intentional the themes may or may not have been, they represent a lot of what the LGBT community wants to see expanded on, and if the devs aren't gonna do it, its not like its too surprising to see the community doing that themselves.
@@MissingNoviceon the other end, I personally have issues with people treating headcanon as fact. If they simply said that it's headcanon, this whole thing wouldn't be such a divisive topic.
Late to this discussion, but being a gay guy who isn’t hyper “YAAAAS QWEEN!!!” even back then, seeing a character like Kanji made me realize that being gay didn’t have to be the sole defining feature of me. It is a big part of my humanity, but not the end all be all, and who and what I am is not set in stone. So ye, Kanji is best boi.
as a guy who was never "traditionally" masculine (no sports, no womanizing) i gotta say kanji really did help me become not only more confident in my own masculinity but also help others in their masculinity and while his struggle with sexuality didnt have any actual relatability, it did very much so point out how we conflate hypermasculinity with heterosexuality and anything less than that as gay which is an interesting thing that definitely should at least be acknowledged, because it is true and present in society
One thing I've always found fascinating about Kanji: his reception is something of a microcosm of how queer representation in media has changed over time. In the 90's and 2000's, anime and JRPGs would often feature queer-coded characters, who were often censored or "gender-flipped" in the western localizations to avoid any implications. (See: the infamous changing of Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune to being cousins, I think Sailor Moon also had a queer male villain changed to female) Then Persona 4 came out in 2008. At this time, I think, Mass Effect only had one same-sex romance option, and it was a one-gender race of female-presenting aliens who were all biologically bisexual, and it still got massive backlash from mainstream media. I don't know how many of you here remember the old Extra Credits video, and while I don't agree with a lot of their takes (they were notoriously anti-JRPG back then and very America-centric), they argued that not only was Kanji 100% gay, he was also GOOD REPRESENTATION. Fast forward a decade of more after P4's release. Queer representation in western media skyrocketed, especially in children's cartoons like Korra, Steven Universe and She-Ra. And Kanji, who used to look like positive representation, came under much more scrutiny. At the same time, the Persona series seems to have gone backwards in representation with the Shinjuku Creatures and all moments of potential queerness between party members being treated as a joke. I've always said that western games couldn't have gotten away with a character like Kanji in 2008... but I doubt a Japanese game could get away with a character like Kanji now. (This is just casual observations of media on the internet, if you disagree with any of this feel free to correct me) EDIT: I really hope I didn't fall into the "westerners know better" traps you mentioned late in the video. Trust me, I've seen that attitude in JRPG discourse for years and I HATE it (e.g back during the Metroid Other M fiasco, you saw tons of "of COURSE it's portrayal of Samus was sexist, it was made in Japan for a Japanese audience" and... then people looked at what Japanese fans were saying and they had the exact same complaints about Samus' writing that western fans did)
Also some additional things People in the western countries did praise stuff like yaoi and Yuri for gay representation. But people look into more and having better representation. Many people realized some "oof" stuff with alot of yaoi and Yuri. Japan has made, if slow progress on lgbt+ rights. I mean they recently trying to repealed the law that if someone changes gender, they have to be sretlized. I would also add that persona backwardness to lgbt+ stuff is also being pretty bad compared to other series like fire emblem that seems to at least taking the right steps with there gay stuff(with engage almost making everyone who marriable be bi). I still think a character like Kanji can be made today, but I think the stuff "he might be queer" would be downplay or more stated about his masculinity to not cause confusion.
@@starmaker75 i have honestly seen only few good yuri and yaoi mangas, most of the once i have seen especially for yaoi are every disturbing in the lack of consent way while alot of yuri is made for men to sexualize lesbians. i have meat alot of people who only think that none western countries have a problem with the LGBTQIA+ community but thats just not true, like look at alot of states in the US who are trying to make not falling into the bullshit gender standards illegal. you could also look at some european countries like poland and russian which both have massive issues that are often worse then countries outside of europe. people want to think that the western wold is more advanced in most social discourses then none western countries. while i can't say if we are or not i definitely can say that we need to fix our countries before looking at other countries.
@@starmaker75 I want to comment about an information i get while searching for this topic seeing an anime about an openly lesbian character 2 months ago, yuri, gay and BL are esencially marketed to women readers thats why the lack of humanity or consent while theres others genres made by gay and lesbians like "geikome"
@@guillermocervisalmeron2209 Yuri is already primarily made BY queer women FOR queer women Term "gei" in Japanese only refers to men so it is primarily made by gay men ONLY
The topic on Persona 4 and LGBTQ representative has been a infamously debated topic on the internet so throwing my hat into the ring is probably just asking to be jumped from all sides but here goes: I don't believe Kanji's dungeon and arc is entirely his sexuality. Shadow Kanji is moreso an exaggerated representation of how others view him, a insecurity that is a result of what the world typically deems as feminine hobbies. He tries to, but ends up overcompensating this by acting as stereotypically masculine as possible to fit into society's rigid gender roles, causing everyone around him to subconsciously imagine him to be a gay man, and/or a loner delinquent. His entire arc is about accepting himself (yes, what pretty much the entire game is focused on), realizing he can like whatever he likes and feel whatever he feels without fitting into some specific box society tells him to be in order to be a 'real man,' that wasn't 'a strange guy.' In order words, his stories all about toxic masculinity. Now, I don't think that doesn't necessarily mean that Kanji isn't attracted to dudes, the common arguments for this include is how Kanji is clearly attracted to Naoto at the moment he meets her, at a time where he fully believes her to be male and how he gets a nosebleed while looking only at Yu and Yosuke. Now a lot of people will use these examples and say how it was a missed opportunity to not have a romance option with him or whatnot, but to be honest, I don't really agree with that either. His entire arc is that he doesn't need to conform to what the world tells him to be, and that he can reveal his tastes, hobbies, and _wants_ at his own leisure, there I say, at his own pace. I'd go as far as to say that the player, both You and us, aren't entitled to know Kanji's sexuality, at least not until he's conformable with sharing it and that confirming it more in game would be detrimental to how his character was written. Now Yosuke though, yeah that one you got me, that man is a mess and the leak for his romance path with the protagonist is nothing but a fumble on Atlus' end.
Yes, all the shadows are part the individual's own insecurities, and part what the collective outside wants to see (all the viewers of the Midnight Channel/residents of Inaba). I think the "conclusion" of Kanji's story is a fine thing. As I said in the video, there's nothing inherently wrong with Naoto being a girl in the end and he's still just as attracted. Queerness is a spectrum, and bi and pan folks exist. And I agree that in real life we're not entitled to know people's personal sexual orientation, and Persona games are written to speak to the audience and their real lives ala what Hashino said himself in the Metaphor interview. On that note, I cut this part from the video since it was already getting too long, but ambiguity about life and people is generally much more tolerated in Japanese culture. It's why it's not so uncommon for characters to have pretty subtle and/or ambiguous motivations and thought-process in film, anime, and other Japanese media (i.e. things never being confirmed). Interestingly enough there were a number of queer Japanese interviewed back in the 2000s by Dr. Mark McLelland, and a common view of the older folks was "Americans see things in very black and white -- you're either gay, or you're not. We are more comfortable with the concept of being gay and not being gay at the same time." The younger generation seems to have a more increasingly solid understanding of their identity though, most likely attributed to how connected the world is now and all the major social media sites being American-created/owned, so a lot of *our* cultural influence seeps in and changes the existing perception. But with that said, it just doesn't feel great that the Developer interview speaks about the queer identity representation in such a dismissive/non-serious way. Like it's used in a merely novelty-seeking way... In-game resulting in a number of instances where Kanji's possible gay status was treated as a joke, or even fed into the falsely perpetuated stereotypes of society via the rest of the party (mostly Yosuke on the latter... 😬). I talked about and showed a good number of them in the Atlus Dev interview, preface section. The harm/hurt in those scenes are for LGBT+ players who *do* happen to have a strong sense of their identity, only to see that part of them treated as a joke basically, or just plain weird (in other words "not normal"). And for non-queer folk it just adds an additional piece of evidence to the patterns our minds make and store in our subconscious. I still don't think its deliberately malicious on the dev's part, but a result of growing up in a homophobic environment. I have hope any new queer characters in P6 onwards will be handled with more care though since the internet makes it so much easier to learn about LGBTQ+ community even if you don't know anyone personally around you. In the end Kanji's still a very human, nuanced character, and all the mishandlings of the gay stereotypes shouldn't dismiss the exploration of masculinity and gender roles imo. The primary focus of his arc I've always seen as on gender expectations, but I still think it's important to bring up the sexual attraction thing still being a part of it too. I think it's basically cherry-picking to only focus on one or the other (he's only about gender norms vs. it's only about his sexual orientation). Two things/concepts can be true and explored at the same time and humans are often complicated like this lol! (btw I'm not accusing you of being in the "either, or" camp, I'm just speaking about it in general). Thanks for the thoughtful comment!
In my view, I don't think Kanji is outright gay at all. He is bisexual at most, but more likely sexually confused. The debate he is I find quite ironic because P4 is about seeing nuances and developing understanding from a myriad of truth and not about passing judgment with ignorance. The Midnight channel is not at all like P5's Metaverse. It's not someone's cynical worldview they're hiding. It's actually more of their societal view from gossip, remarks, and ignorance. So shadows are less of the literal Jungian idea of "evil side we hide from others", but more like one-dimensional representations of these characters (since they got on the Midnight channel from being featured in the media). That's why it makes more sense that the characters reject the shadows initially because it takes things that might actually be insecurities but paints them in the worse possible light with none of the nuances. The persona awakening is them being able to self-actualize as they don't have that romanticized vision in their heads after seeing how others view them. Therefore, they don't run away from their problems. Remember that personas are how we portray ourselves, so it shows a social evolution, not necessarily just a personal one. With Kanji, his tv show is gay themed, but I think partly because it portrays the ultimate stereotype of a feminine man. Exactly what people saw in Kanji all those years back when he was just into things deemed slightly feminine like sewing and home economics. In reality, those were just some parts of his gender identity that didn't match one to one, but it didn't mean he was thing caricature of a sissy like people made him out to be, and part of that caricature is being homosexual. Os he fled into denial of being uber-masculine to appease his father's wishes and had some pent-up animosity with women who had bullied him. Kanji is really attracted to Naoto, but because she's female. Naoto isn't a transsexual who fully appears male, she just dresses a bit more like a man and claims she is (partly to be more respected in her job and to not feel like an outsider). Kanji is insecure because he faces the prospect of actually being attracted to someone he hears is male and is reassured after the fact. He even asks Naoto to join the beauty pagent to appear more female, making him even more attracted. The nosebleeds I think are more of insecurity since he was lambasted as homosexual and seeing how his projection was erotic bathouse. In every other scene, he treats them just as freinds even during the beach scene where they're all mostly undressed. So everyone who writes him off as "the token gay representative" is doing the exact opposite as what the game is advocating. It holds as much validity as saying Rise is an incredibly promiscuous teenager when she hasn't even had a boyfriend.
@@BDeity Persona 4- "To grow as a person you have to look past the fog of lies in your head and see people for who they actually are, not how you want them to be." Persona fans- "OMG KANJI IS GAY!" Me- "That's... you missed the entire message of the game."
I salute your grit tackling this incredibly dense, risky and tangent-riddled subject. Every single one of your videos have allowed me to gain a better appreciation of many pieces of media, not just the games you use as reference. Thanks to you, the incoming P3 remake should be even more of a treat :) . Best wishes and happy Halloween.
Thanks for this, it really means a lot! I'm aware I invite all sorts of dissenting voices when I cover topics like this 😬 But I'll always feel compelled to talk about them anyway! Love seeing the increased appreciation for all kinds of media out there! Hope you had a happy halloween 👻
Kanji was/is actually one of my favorite characters in all of Persona. From his struggles to how he retains his sense of self through them have been a great motivator over the years.
Well, since you asked, here's a little something about this gay man. In 2009, I was already 22 years old and in my fourth year of university. It was in college, away from my hometown that I was finally able to explore gay men in media. There weren't any I could find outside of the classic Rocky Horror Picture Show and the yaoi manga I started buying from Amazon. But then, there was P4, the original PS2 release. Kanji was the first gay, or at least bi, character I ever saw in a video game. I was excited during his monologue, and when the battle started, I remember thinking finally, someone else said the unspoke parts out loud. There has been much debate over Kanji since then. But for me, he was the first gay (or at least bi) character I saw somewhere other than a yaoi manga. I remember the parallels between his character and me when I was in highschool. I also took home ec and wasn't interested in traditionally masculine high school activities. I got picked a lot for it and was ultimately forced to defend myself with violence. Kanji was essentially me in a video game.
Anytime I see people talk about how Kanji is totally 100% gay, I show them this video(and especially to extra credits for popularize this misconception). Me personality I think Kanji might be bisexual/pansexual as he did somewhat show some attraction to naoto when she was disguised herself as a boy. However if you ask me, Yousuke act more like the guy in the closet then kanji, given he was original a gay option. Also I admit persona's lgbt+ representation is.....quite mixed. Sure there is Aigis, Jun, and maybe Akechi(seen him more asexual), lala-chan and Kanji. however there was that crossdresser trapping men in persona 3, some of the "gay jokes" in persona 4 , and the freaks in persona 5.
Modern persona is very transphobic and homophobic for sure. They have so many scenes that they could've just not included or chose to exclude in the re-releases, but as even P5R shows us, ATLUS *REALLY* wants to keep including the scenes even if they tone down the bigotry a bit. It's disappointing.
@@Aigis31 An important thing to note about P5R that I only realized on watching Censored Gaming's video, the Shinjuku Creatures scenes were toned down in the Japanese script too, albeit slightly more subtly than the English one. (But one notable point is Ryuji no longer refers to them as "bakemono" [monsters], but the more neutral "these guys") I hope this 1, gives hope that later Persona games will do better and 2, shuts up the people going on about "the woke localization ruined everything".
Very interesting video. I forgot just how much Kanji's arc also touched upon sexuality as well as gender norms, and I'm really glad for your nuanced opinions. Kanji and Naoto are both characters that I think definitely need this examination from the more interdependent view of self that is more common in Japan. Hence why I think this video is really necessary. It's not often as simple as "you're either gay or you're not", as many people see it. But I'm really really thankful that you mentioned the ethnocentric issues that I tend to see with a LOT of Western discourse on Japanese media. It's always been really concerning to me to see, and as you rightfully said- it doesn't mean that certain issues in said countries should be excused, but the lack of empathy for other cultures lived experiences is shockingly devoid from well meaning people.
I personally try to look at P4 through the lens of the time. As a cis male that isn't very masculine I feel like it's better than most games from that time. It clearly has problems, but the characters are absolutely lovable. I also saw a lot of the conflict coming from society and less as flaws of the characters. I first played P4G in 2022, so that could just be my brain trying to justify it. I also feel like the 2 P5 characters are worse than anything in P4.
As a biracial Latin cisgender gay male myself I definitely resonated with Kanji's story: his varying reactions to different parties of people remind me of my tendency to code switch when I was his age. I appreciate the part of his social link where the young boy thinks his doll making was cool: though subtle, it did have a slight commentary on how the next generation was less binary when it comes to gender norms.
In my over-analysis of Kanji's boss fight, I consider the "Nice Guy" and "Tough Guy" (alongside the obvious reference to "uke" and "seme" dynamics in Japanese queer media) symbolic of the two identities Kanji is stuck between, feeling he HAS to be one or the other to meet social expectations when in reality he's got traits of both, like most people. The fact that they and Shadow Kanji's battle form is half black and half white also plays into this, Kanji's own "black and white thinking" regarding masculinity. Speaking of which, one of his attacks literally inflicts Poison status on males. Literal toxic masculinity? (Inflicting Rage on females could represent his internalized misogyny) 6:04 Aaaaaaaand this sums up why I think Hector in Fire Emblem 7 deconstructed toxic masculinity before it was cool! For 90% of the game his ENTIRE character is using anger and stoicism as an outlet for everything, and by the last few chapters (which you only realize on Hector's route) he's on the verge of a breakdown. It's part of why I ship him with Lyn so hard, because through their conversations she helps him be more open with his emotions, while you also learn that she initially disliked him for reminding her of how SHE used to act. lol putting up the Patreon plug as you mention the power of friendship, nice timing. 9:11 This part actually sums up why how a lot of American media handles school bullying bothers me (it generally boils down to glorifying "vigilante justice" over de-escalating conflict or going to teachers) but that's an entirely different topic. 13:40 This moment still gets to me as a huge P3 fan. Akinari's still changing lives even after he's gone. 17:26 Hmm... while my father didn't pass away, he did divorce my mother when I was young and it's been mostly me and her, and I feel like I've kinda gone through the same thing? I can get pretty protective of her. 23:35 Aaaaaaand this is why I hate that Q2 acts like Kanji and Ryuji are similar when, outside of gameplay, they're REALLY NOT. They both aren't "really" delinquents, but their reasons for adopting the look are radically different. Kanji wanted to match society's image of a man, Ryuji felt he might as well become the thug everyone saw him as. (Also, Ryuji is a lot more legit anti-authority than Kanji) If Ryuji stopped bleaching his hair, I'd take that as regression, because he'd be giving in to society's expectations. But with Kanji, it's a sign of him accepting and being open with who he really is. The delinquent look was a LIE. 26:24 "It's not like I have any internalized homophobia for my unused voice clips or anything!" 29:54 This is something I've kind of noticed about myself lately. Just about every paring I ship in media I enjoy is heterosexual, and I think it's in part due to there being no "normal" same-sex relationships portrayed in the media I grew up with. And unlike a lot of fans, canon means everything to me in a work, and I'll never ship something without at least some canonical evidence. There was the odd queer-coded side character, but the focus "OTP" couple would be strictly male/female. I later came to enjoy the same-sex romances on Critical Role, but the first protagonist same-sex romance I encountered in a videogame and genuinely considered well-written was in Hades, which I played in 2022. Sometimes I wonder if I'd ship more same-sex pairings if I'd grown up in an era with shows like She-Ra or Steven Universe. Granted, while the increased representation is good, there's some nuance re: the online discussions on ships, in particular I find that stuff that gets a hetero ship deemed "problematic" often gets a pass in a same-sex one. 33:54 Pokemon Conquest includes Nobunaga's Wakashu, Ranmaru, as a playable character, and the implications of their relationship still very much exist. (Granted there's some potentially iffy portrayals, like Ranmaru being roped-into an "all-girls" competition) And he makes quite the impression as he's brutal to go up against in combat, both early (Dragon Rage vs low-level Pokemon is brutal) and late-game (his "ace" is Lucario). 39:02 Takezuchi Auchi on the left there. He's clearly meant to be a parody of the samurai nobility class who refused to let go of their past glory and status during the early Meiji period. Your statistics re schools in Japan are one my favourite things about your videos. I would've expected it from students, but I had no idea TEACHERS got in on the gay jokes in Japan. (Well, probably in the west too and I was just lucky my school wasn't like that) Regarding Japanese society, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've heard that a lot of the older ultranationalist politicians use modern Japan's declining birth rate to campaign against LGBT issues, viewing same-sex relationships and transgender people as a THREAT to the country via their inability to have children. At the very least, I know Dragon Quest's infamous composer (who's also part of the Nippon Kaigi I think) has made comments to this effect. Regarding the "cultural imperialism" aspects, a long time ago I heard that (once again, PLEASE correct me if I'm grossly misrepresenting the culture) the very same societal expectations for men that are the source of Kanji's whole arc were partly brought on by western perceptions that Japanese men were "too effeminate". The final section was the perfect summary. I feel like these days, we judge Kanji and Naoto from a 2020's western lens, while forgetting that, by 2008 standards it was rare to have these issues explored AT ALL, and both are well-rounded and likable characters whose arcs have more good than bad.
Just finished this video with a couple of friends. We wanted to say thank you for adding more context and providing a voice of compassion multiple times in the video.
@@LadyVirgilia It really did! We're all looking forward to your Naoto video too! Overall, just glad to see you still doing these videos. Your voice in these subjects have really helped.
Can I give you a big shout-out for being so willing to discuss the harms of colonialist Christianity, knowing your personal faith? Colonialism just ruins everything. But you've done a great job covering as much nuance as possible and it's clear that you have a lot of love for all of these topics. I think people occasionally focus too hard on putting a label on things that don't always fit exact labels...as an ace person I once described a crush on a girl as not being "attracted to girls in general...but I'm not attracted to boys in general". It's complicated for me because I'm not aromantic, but I've never fully been able to understand what a partner's body has to do with anything. It's intersecting for me to see a case like Kanji's, where it's pretty clear he fell for Naoto, not "boys". Even if Naoto had been a man (or a trans man) it wouldn't be an obligation for Kanji to identify as gay or bi. You can be 99% straight but with an exception, or you can decide to be in a romantic relationship with someone you're not sexually attracted to. (Not that there's anything wrong with calling yourself bi if you have one exception!) I just generally see some of these discourses as a little too....well, binary.
My short description of Kanji is: bisexual blunt tough guy with girly interests. In the end "Manly men wear pink" trope exist for a reason. Sidenote: I have some things to say about people's opinions on Naoto and Yosuke but I'll save it for later.
Lady, I’m only 47 minutes in, and I am here to say thanks. Thanks again for providing us with the most cultured (in the most respectful way) videos you’ve ever posted.
Kanji has always been my favorite character. When I reached his dungeon in p4 thats when I fell in love with p4 and then the persona franchise as a whole. I very much connected with Kanji as I grew up with 2 sisters and ended up watching and enjoying more "feminine" things such as MLP and what not. Because of this I would always get picked on or couldn't relate to what most guys were talking about. Kanjis story in p4 made me want to express myself more and not be afraid of liking things that I like. There maybe homophobic, transphobic, and fat joke scenes or messages in persona but I often look past them as the positive messages, characters, gameplay, and stories far outweigh them for me (they still piss me off when I see them tho). I wish we could get more stories like Kanji talking about men enjoying what they enjoy and be true to themselves, not being afraid of expressing yourself and loving and accepting yourself even if others don't. We need that kind of messaging for men ESPECIALLY in this day and age.
I love Kanji and I can emphasise so much with him as a straight guy. I hate how society views masculinity. I'm sensitive, romantic, cry easily and I like cute stuff. Doesn't make me any less of a man. I played P4 only recently, after I already learned these life lessons, but I still loved the representation.
As much as I loved Kanji when the game came out and wanted to praise his inclusion, the writing pretty quickly showed its ass by fumbling his character arc pretty badly, muddying the message and doing him (and those of us who just want good queer representation) pretty dirty. I can realize now that, like you addressed in the video, I had imposed my radical queer Western Liberal expectations onto a Japanese product that was informed by different cultural/social constructs and standards. Also, as a writer I have to remind myself that creative expression is very personal, and as much as we want it no creative OWES us queer representation, unless that's a story they specifically want to tell. BUT I still think there was a way they could have written Kanji to lift him up without punching down (tl;dr alternate dungeon and Shadow idea at the end). The message of self-acceptance and freedom of expression, in Kanji's case, "There's nothing wrong with men being gentle and compassionate, or having interests and hobbies that are socially ascribed as being feminine, and you should do what you love regardless of how others perceive you" is valid, and important. But my issue with the way they handled that message with Kanji's character arc was that after his dungeon, the implication was, "Don't worry guys--he's not ACTUALLY gay, his Shadow just manifested that way because society/his own internalized shame conflagrates feminine hobbies with homosexuality. He likes to sew, but he's not actually gay, you guys--look, he got a nosebleed from the girls in their swimsuits!! He tried to jump into bed with a female teacher to 'make [himself] a man'!!" THAT'S what really bothered me about Kanji's writing. In that straight-up offensive scene at the school camping trip, with Yosuke's out-of-nowhere homophobic accusations (a whole other can of worms)--the issue as presented in that scene is that it's unfair that Yosuke assumes Kanji's going to r*pe them in their sleep or whatever, because Kanji's not actually gay you guys, and "totally okay around girls now" in his own words (like the bi erasure is real y'all, but that's beside the point). Not that Yosuke's being shitty for propagating the false fear-mongering that non-straight people are predators--the framing is that that shitty take shouldn't apply to Kanji, therefore it's uncalled for. He even runs out of the tent to go raid the girls' camp to prove he's not gay i.e. not a threat to Yosuke and MC. From what I recall, you're not EVER given a dialogue option to tell Yosuke to cut his shit out whenever he starts up his "no homo" routine, because the writing frames that as the "default" or expected reaction. (Perhaps in his aborted romance arc it would have come up, and recontextualizes this as internalized homophobia, but we'll never know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯) The writers simultaneously leaned in too heavily with the "Kanji might be gay" jokes, and also backpedalled extremely hard to show that he's not actually gay, you guys--which I don't know why they even bothered because it's still pretty obvious to anyone with eyes that Kanji is likely bi/pan, or at least questioning 😂 His interactions with Naoto pre-reveal and even his Social Link interactions with MC being prime examples. But there could have been a middle ground that showed Kanji's trauma resulting from being bullied and rejected by his peers, his internalized toxic masculinity, and his persisting fear of not being accepted--and also not understanding his true self and what he wants very well, having blurred his identity behind an over-compensative and self-protective tough-guy persona (heh). But what we got was "haha lisping mincing Shadow and bara boss fight." Just spitballing here--there's a Japanese term with a relatively negative connotation: 草食(系)男子 (herbivore men)--basically the equivalent of Western "soy boy/beta male". They could have played up his Shadow to be pathetic and non-assertive, with Kanji's father's last words of, "If you want to be a real man, you need to be strong" echoing through his dungeon. They could have still kept the rose motif, with his palace being a greenhouse or a "secret garden"--his Shadow could just run away and hide from them, or be completely unseen and unreachable atop twisting vines covered with thorns--but as the party pleads with him, "It's okay, we just want to see the real you! You can show us!"--the real Kanji is terrified at the idea of them seeing him, and goads his Shadow to "toughen up like a man and quit runnin' away". Hearing the promise of finally being accepted, the Shadow bud blooms into a delicate flower, with Kanji the way he used to look when he was younger at its center, maybe meekly doing some needlework, begging them not to judge him, or make fun of him, or throw him away. Kanji is so disgusted with his weak, people-pleasing former self, and so embarrassed that all these people are seeing it, that he rejects it outright, causing it to go berserk and explode into a hyper-masculine, violent Shadow--thereby also commenting on how toxic masculinity ultimately hurts men. There could be a motif of tightening string or suffocating cloth as the boss changes phases. In the end, Kanji can only accept himself by reaching a hand down to his defeated Shadow, his "pathetic" former self--and telling him it's okay to be soft, it's okay to be himself. He doesn't need to change to be accepted by other people. ... Or, you know, stop being cowards and actually have an LGBT+ character that's not a punchline. One or the other! Or both! It's the "at least he's not gay" part that really grinds my gears. Ugh I could go on all day about it but you get my point 😂 They really did my sweet boy dirty, and with just a few tweaks and rewrites he could have been *chef's kiss* 😘🤌 ... Also, let's not even get into the discourse of why "feminine" hobbies are seen as inherently less valuable, or why it's more socially acceptable to make fun of "feminine" interests in the first place. Like how the "professional chef" sphere is very male-dominated, whereas "cooking" for a family is still seen as relegated to women, and most high-profile female chefs are still marketed as "home cooks" for relatability 😒
I played P4G over quarantine for the first time and I was a 16 year old male at this point. Kanji’s story (flaws aside) actually made me feel a lot more comfortable about questioning my sexuality and helped me come to terms with being bi
Another excellent video with a lot of interesting context and angles to consider! Fwiw I do think you handled the several more delicate topics with nuance and grace. As for Kanji's character growth - I think one of the most quietly important reasons is his friendship with Rise. I love their relationship, and how she immediately establishes this sort of brother-sister dynamic with him (possibly because of his complete lack of interest in her as a girl or an idol lol). Rise rags on Kanji all the time, but never for what he likes or how he behaves -- it's always clearly affectionate. I like to think that helped him move past his scarring earlier experiences with the mean girls.
Hi LV! Really good video! I'm at an interesting intersection as a Western Japan fan who is both Christian and LGBT (Asexual-Aromantic). It frustrates me how my faith has been used to push down on LGBT (due to mistranslations/broken context, but that's a whole other post) -especially since one of the earliest people to join the movement was an African eunuch who by today's standards would use they/them pronouns-, but I think you covered the sensitive topic very well and showed the good and bad in both West and Asia with the hope that LGBT acceptance is improving. Personally, I liked Kanji in P4, my big gripe was Yosuke never having an arc where he went from 'freaked out' to acceptance with Kanji as that could've been a great vehicle to show people how to walk out of preconceived notions. Like you said though, they seem to be doing better and I have high hopes for P3Reload! I liked how P5 Royal changed the interaction with the gay NPC's, but I assumed that was for western audiences only, was that change also present in the Japanese script?
I knew Persona 4 existed during my high school years. I was heavily encouraged to play specifically it, but getting my hands on a copy was stupidly difficult. I managed to find and play P3F (which is still my favorite Persona game to this day), but I regrettably didn't get a chance to play P4 until well into my adulthood.
I tend to read Kanji as bi. Granted, I'm bi, so there's probably bias. (BI-as! hahahahaaa. haaaaaaa...) But I think it also works in context of the story. It's yet another thing that Kanji doesn't understand about himself, adding to his confusion. He rejects his "flamboyant" Shadow because that's NOT him, but he's not totally straight either, and so he struggles to grok his in-between-ness. (Which also puts him further in parallel with Nauto, who's in a similar - but distinct - state of in-between-ness.)
Loved this video. As a gay man myself who was 17 when I first played Persona 4, I was always really drawn to Kanji because of how much I related to his struggles with masculinity, what it means to be a man, and all the other complications that part of his character dealt with. But I was a lot more mixed on what the game had to say about his queerness/questioning status, and this has only intensified in the years since (I'm almost 22 now). What you said about how his feelings toward Naoto not changing once she was revealed to be a woman was portrayed less of an exploration of bisexuality/pansexuality and more of a "relief" really resonated with me, because that's by far my least favorite aspect of his character. I really loved that you criticized all this while still explaining why it was written like that in the first place. It had me thinking about how much I view Kanji and Persona 4 from a western lens, and I feel like I have a much broader understanding of the cultural context behind this game and his character.
As someone who played Persona 4 on release and has watched the way the discussions about it have evolved over the years, you definitely get props from me for taking on a big, complex topic like this with such care and attention. You covered basically everything that made me love Kanji to the point where he's not just one of my favorite characters in the game, but all media ever (though I definitely missed or forgot him saying "his parents" were like that about the fabric business instead of just "my mom" - it really makes me think Kanji's dad may have been a lot like him when he was younger!). I always feel like an important detail that tends to get left out/forgotten in debates about what constitutes good representation (believe me, I am not 100% saying Atlus does nothing wrong ever here) is that the Midnight Channel is explicitly stated to reflect peoples' thoughts. Yeah, Kanji's Shadow and the bathhouse are full of homophobic stereotypes - because the people who disapproved of or ostracized him over his hobbies were more than likely thinking that's how he 'really' was. And Kanji had definitely picked up on at least a little bit of this and internalized it, to say nothing of his own fears concerning masculinity. A Shadow is everything hidden about you, and in almost every case that includes a lot of self-loathing, so part of me thinks Shadow Kanji is the mental image Kanji used to beat himself up when he felt ashamed. Though I suppose you could say that's just the Doylist side of the matter. I think it was a huge missed opportunity for the game to not have Kanji and Naoto talk more about gender norms and identity - at least, I don't remember it coming up much, and I didn't play Golden myself. (Good luck tackling that kettle of fish as well, and I'm also using she/her in this comment for Naoto despite personally viewing her as varying nonbinary identities over the years.) It's really interesting how they both deal with the same issue in different ways! Kanji has elements that don't fit in with the idea of a "man", so he buries them to be more like that idea, whereas Naoto has elements that don't fit in with the idea of a "woman", so she distances herself from that idea. Heck, even the negative stuff Shadow Kanji says about girls probably aligns with how Naoto is afraid of being seen as one, rather than the collected intellectual she aspires to be. Can you tell Naoto's the other character that became very firmly planted in my brain, by the way?
I discovered your channel just today, and I doubt you'll read this, but I just want to say I'm in awe of how many and how detailed all your analysis of not just Persona 5, but Persona 4 (and I believe Persona 3 as well if I'm not mistaken) are. I'm thinking of maybe starting to make similar (albeit probably shorter, as I doubt I can do research as good as you seem to be able to do) analysis videos, so I feel like there's a lot that I could stand to learn from how you carry out your own videos. Thank you for doing such good work!
Honestly I always Just wanted to give Kanji a hug. He reminds me alot of myself. People have alot of thoughts about him but very few truly know him. I relate to that hard and consequentially he is one of my favorite social links.
OMG I WAS WAITING FOR THIS MY WHOLE LIFE. I really loved your P5(R) analysis, and I was really waiting to see your P4 analysis! I have no idea if you've finished it by now (and maybe debating on a p3 analysis...), but this was a great episode.
Thank you so much for this! As a gay man myself, I really appreciate your delicate and nuanced description and analysis. I personally don't love Persona 4 as much as 3 and 5 because of what I feel was a bit of a bait and switch with Kanji and Naoto. At the same time, I think heterosexual male characters with passions for things that are culturally deemed more feminine are important to see in media. Overall, I think I still very much like Kanji and Naoto, and I think Persona 4 is a very good game, even if it doesn't speak to me, personally as much as 3 and 5.
The thing people miss about Kanji are his parents. Out of all the teammates, he's the one we spend the most time with his family (his mom). That's intentional. We are reminded about his mom over and over through his social link, and by extension, the absence of his father. He doesn't talk about his father much, but his absence is a looming shadow over the whole thing. Kanji reveals he fought the bikers trying to be his mom's protector, a role his father once played. Kanji is his mom's emergency contact when she goes to the hospital, like his father used to be. He's trying to fill shoes he feels unfit for because of his misconceptions about what a strong man is. Kanji's whole story is a boy trying to be a strong man without having that role model show him how, so he has to make it up as he goes and ends up leaning into misconceptions he has. That's why he loves Yu. He's this guy who appears to have it together and isn't worried about what other people think. He's in the drama club and babysits kids, but he also plays sports and stuff. Yu has that masculine/feminine balance while being the strongest man he knows. Yu becomes Kanji's north star of sorts.
My interpretation of Kanji is that he is, at the start, uncertain of his sexuality due to constant accusations because of his typically feminine hobbies, however due to Kanji's fears of rejection instead of figuring out the answer to his uncertainty he blindly chooses the one he wants to be true (ironically that is the correct answer but he doesn't truly know that until he lets himself actually contemplate it) this denial of self-reflection is what leads to Kanji's aggressive "masculinity" as he's trying to convince everyone, especially himself, of the image he wants to be real without actually knowing it to be real, this is also why Shadow Kanji is so aggressively the opposite, he's trying to make Kanji doubt himself as by doing so it would allow Kanji to come to the truth, by acting so flamboyant and saying he's "the true self" he wants Kanji to stop denying his self-doubt and to actually reflect on the matter.
Regarding how divergent sexuality was seen as "unnatural" despite not being name any reasons, I personally believe there is no such thing as unnatural. Humans are a naturally diverse species to accomodate for different roles in society and even modern ways of life could be considered the destined outcome of mankind's inherent curiosity and generational teaching capabilities. Anything a human can do is human nature at work. (Not to mention that sexuality specifically can take many forms in other species. Bonobos, our closest relatives, are majority bisexual.)
When I palyed persona 4 I felt really represented by Kanji, there were times when I felt bad because I liked dresses (for women, not for men) or things like plushies, people called me gay or fagot and in some point I tought I may as well be, but never ever have I feel atracted by another man, so I really didn't know were I fitt, so I started leaving things I liked and never talked about it because I am a man. But when I played this game it actually helped me to embrace those things, I have plushies of my own now, and really like to see pretty dresses and asthetics of outfits, go shopping, etc, as well as I love seeing action movies and boxing, man I love that I feel good being a man. As a side note: When people say Kanji is 100% gay and it is a queer icon I feel...kinda bad, this character helped realize there is nothing wrong to like what I liked and still be a straight man, and can still be strong and a "good man" even tho I like the style of dresses. And I know this is a little bad of me, but when I discused about this with some people they were like "you are gay and don't know it" or "step out of the closet honey, we will help you" it really triger some bad memories when I didn't know what I was, this actually make me really prejudice of queer people when I was younger, but I'm not like that anymore, I think queer representention is a good thing, and should get more representation in media, but forcing their way in it is not the way, it may hurt people like me who can't see that they are their unique person and don't need to put themselves in a social box that someone built for you.
I did not grow up with Persona 4, but I did play it during High School. Other than some factors outside of his own control, I think that he was done super well. He's a character that you can separate from his possible representation and is a well rounded and relatable character. If stated explicitly and without the sort of problematic things his friends say to him, I would consider him perfect representation. As someone who is bi, his whole personal story really speaks to me not in a pandering sort of way, but that he is trying to be proud of his own identity. Be the person he wants to be.
I absolutely adore all of your video analysis!! Theyre always so detailed and interesting, i definitely need to watch more! I only discovered this channel yesterday but its one of my favourites already :) im so curious about Naoto video, cant wait for it
Hey hey, speaking as a bi guy in response to 57:15. I quite genuinely love Kanji as a character. Not just because he's like me, and not just because I absolutely agree with him that Naoto is adorable regardless of gender norms. But because he's such a big, lovable, goofy dumbass who has immense nuance to his entire character. I love a character I can respect, and who can wear his heart on his sleeve with pride. Oh, he definitely knew that wasn't booze. I'm sure he's had to wash stains out of clothes before, and isopropyl alcohol is great for that (depending on the fabric and stain type). It has a very similar biting smell to rum and whiskey.
I'd normally agree, as long as the "failure" isn't really offensively bad, which is what I experienced with autism/aspergers-coded characters growing up. Nearly all of them were horrible human beings and more like sociopaths than autistic, and it sucked when that was the only representation you got.
As I've discovered more about my gender and orientation and everything else, a lot of P4 like... I mean it's cliche to say it didn't age well, but even beyond that, which I could get over, I'm so tired by it a lot of the time. Tired of the same repeating no-nuance discourse? Tired of gamer chuds ignoring half of Kanji's entire character so they can say queer people are willfully misinterpreting his arc. Tired of liberal Americans saying that Persona as a whole is just garbage because it doesn't share their current politics. (To be clear, I do think the old stuff that hasn't aged well is worth calling out, but yeah, the bit on orientalism was needed.) It's legitimately super nice to see a video of someone breaking all of this down, from the cultural context to the aspects of the story that are being ignored, etc. You really put in the work to have a good faith nuanced conversation about sexuality and gendered expectations and how they relate to P4. I'll definitely be looking forward to the Naoto one next, since I legit believe you will do the topic justice.
I've been surprised at how many men I've met - me included - who resonated deeply with Kanji. How many of us try at some point desperately to be what society expects of us, but just...aren't. Out of all the modern Persona games, I think 4 is my least favorite (Which is like saying it's my least favorite flavor of cake - even a type I don't like all that much is still cake), but man, did Kanji make me feel seen.
To be honest, as a western (half Mexican, but born and raised in Canada) bi fan, I think that Kanji could've been written leagues better, which can be said about all of the other queer rep in this game. However, like some others mentioned on here before me, Kanji is a time capsule of 2000s queer rep. Queer rep has come a very long way in the past decade, even here in the west, so it's easy for us to forget how far we came since 2008. It wasn't until 2012 that we got Korrasami, which was heavily censored and relied on the "word of god" on Bryke's part. Hell, just last year, The Owl House had many non binary characters and even have the female MC end up with a girl. I can't imagine something like that being green lit even 5 years ago! Japan is the same way. Yes, there is a long way to go, but I think as more and more Gen Z and eventually Alpha are put in charge of these projects things will change. Just like how things are slowly changing here in the west. I would argue that Japanese queer rep was even better at that point in time, because 90s/2000s anime like Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura and Utena had great queer rep while I can't say the same thing for western animation from that time period. We in the west shouldn't be acting high and mighty in this area either. Both Canada and the US are passing more and more regressive laws that target trans people. The UK is having their own crusade against trans people. I wouldn't be surprised if other European countries are the same way. Much of Eastern Europe still doesn't have gay marriage rights. Western show creators still have to fight the studios in order to get the most basic of queer rep. Plus, like this video mentioned, it was western colonialism that brought about these regressive laws throughout Asia, Africa and Latin America in the first place! Personally, I liked Kanji in P4. My big gripe was Yosuke never having an arc where he went from 'freaked out' to acceptance with Kanji. That could've been a great vehicle to show people how to walk out of preconceived notions. Like you said, though, they seem to be doing better.
Well for me, Kanji is bi-curious without a doubt, but I would say totally queer. I mean, he's like Chang in "Mulan" : he fell in love with the girl, regardless of her sex and that's what true love is.
Oooh, this is a big topic!! I hope this gets a lot of (positive) attention! Cuz dang, things changed FAST in the 2000s, it really hasn't been that long since gay marriage has been legal in the US, and it's not legal in a lot of the world, there's a lot of "fighting for scraps" mentality when it comes to wanting representation, and yet... For most of human history, there HASN'T been the divisions in words that we have today in terms of queerness. The WORDS we have are very recent, and it's not productive to split hairs about definition when we could be making people feel welcome instead! The phenomenon is, of course, as old as our ancestors, they just fit themselves into different boxes, because those words, those expectations, were all they had. PTSD wasn't a term until ww1, "shell-shocked" was actually created by the soldiers themselves to explain what they saw their comrades going thru. Some really talented authors from the late 1800s and early 1900s could depict a clear and obvious example of an autistic character, probably based on someone they knew in life, but used no word for it, because there WASN'T a word. They just described what they saw. Someday in the future, the alphabet soup we use today might look "limited" or "exclusionary" or awkwardly skewed toward just one perspective, to people in the future. That's why I like the word Queer. Nice big umbrella, easy to spell, lets us have pride in being weird in all SORTS of ways! :)
Kanji having an attraction to women actually really resonates with me, I have had trouble with my sexuality before (mostly for the same reasons as Kanji) so it really annoys me when people say Kanjis character is just a poorly written gay character
And those people act as if bi/pan people don't exist, you can be attracted to both men and women. I always considered Kanji as bi because yeah he was already attracted to Naoto when he thought she was a boy but he's clearly attracted to girls too.
That's great you could resonate with him! Even though there were some really rough scenes along the way, they shouldn't completely invalidate the other powerful messages his character sends
I came to Persona though and magen fighter with Chie in it. I played through P3 Fes before moving to the original P4. Seeing Kanji and going through his social link made me feel like I could belong. And that it's okay of you're still trying to figure out who you are^^❤
48:30 Yeah, people like that are the kind of people who would've loved to have been riding the black ships with Commodore Perry. They also probably thought Logan Paul and Johnny Somali did nothing wrong.
Kanji’s definitely one of my favorite characters, the perfect blend of incredibly fun yet genuinely compelling, but that wasn’t the case until my second playthrough onward, as his Social Link was one of the several things I just completely missed out on during my maiden Persona voyage. I can’t decide if making a main party members Social Link optional(as in non plot mandatory to even trigger) is cool on the grounds on encouraging player exploration/discovery, or or dissatisfying for seemingly giving those party members(or their relationship with the MC at the very least) less weight narratively. Come to think of it, the only party members in P4 whose arcana you can skip are Kanji and Naoto… really hoping that’s just a coincidence. But yeah, Kanji’s a big ol’ emotionally insecure hurricane, with a heart that’s pure Persona 4000^ Golden, and I love him.
I first played persona 4 golden in 2018 on my play station TV. As an amab person who has struggled with their own socitial pressures to fit into the collective interpretation of masculinity I identify with Kanji lord knows if I had played the series back on PS2 his arc might of helped me with my own journey of sexual identity. In 2018 a lot of the more, devisive moments did rubbed me the wrong way but when I played a second time when it came to PC I adopted the mind set of, this is a depiction of a group of teenagers in 2011 rural Japan, this is probably a pretty reasonable depiction of what their group dynamic would be and suddenly Kanji had this entire other perspective to examine him from and I found myself enjoy his arc entirely differently than I did for the first time through. I really agree with this video and I think there is a very good point that a lot of fans with similar takes to mine have a bad tendency to look at Japan or other countries veiws on queer topics and look down on them in judgement, I know I'm guilty of this and need to do better. We live in interesting times that we can look at a game as recent as Persona 4 (what was that orginal releaese like 2008?) and say things like "Yikes" and see how much has changed not just from a western perspective but also in places like Japan things are changing. Like I wonder what Kanji's story would be like if Persona 4 was coming out for the first time in 2024 and how the group would treat him. I dunno ramblings.
So I played P4G originally in my senior year of high school so around 2013. At the time I was deconstructing my Christian faith due to a lot of conflicting views I had(including lgbtq+ issues). So Kanji’s story really stuck out to me. I actually originally thought he wasn’t gay due to his social link and somewhat poor writing. But, as I grew up and talked to more people of the lgbtq+ community who played the game I definitely think differently now!
as a lesbian persona fan, this video is great! i love all the nuance that you go into. kanji's story is queer, and it's important to understand the world that this story was written in. when i first played p4g, which was a few years ago, i was so excited to see a gay character, and then excited to see a trans character, and then i quickly was reminded why i don't get my hopes up about good representation LOL. the tent scene with kanji was definitely the worst scene for me, it brought up memories of my female friends gossiping to me (when i was closeted) about sharing a room with a lesbian and how they weren't comfortable because of that. and kanji's crush on naoto being a kind of "luckily naoto is a girl so it's not gay" thing was such a slap across the face. the internet discourse around these topics is exhausting, so this video was a real treat!! also i had no idea there was a pride pin in a p3r trailer!!!!! such a cute detail that means so much to me
As a gay man. Kanji was a breath of fresh air especially since I was around 18-19 when P4 first released and still learning about my own sexual orientation. Now that I'm older and see how poor the gay jokes at his expense aged. It’s kind of a weird then and now effect. Because back then even after I came out I didn’t find the tent moment offensive and saw it as a played for laughs moment but maybe its because I was used to the fact that I could easily see the situation with some of my own friends in a casual manner. But now I see how toxic and painful it really is especially with more and more negative portrayals of the queer community as these monsters. The funny thing is as much as I loved Kanji as a character...ironically he was my least used party member. I more often Yukiko, Chie, and Naoto or Yosuke in my party for most gameplay situations. Which sucks because I feel 4 had a very diverse and unique cast of characters but gameplay wise there was definitely a focus on who was best for most situations. Yukiko for healing, Chie for strong damage and the occasional Galactic Punt, Naoto for Hama and Mudo skills, and Yosuke for more balanced aspects.
I feel like Kanjis unashamed nature when it comes to his female atributes makes him manlier. I relate to him alot in that regard to not be scared to show all of your attributes "femenine" or "masculine"
While not perfect, I can at least tell middle/high schools are trying to aliviate students stressing over their gender identity with the implementation of "genderless uniforms", with Tombow Gaku Seifuku (school/medical/sports apparel manufacturing company) being an advocate since the mid 2010s. The concept of genderless uniform doesn't refer to "only one uniform type for the whole student body", instead it means that students are allowed to mix and match how they wear their uniform from a selection of approved pieces of clothing, including blazers that no longer accentuate "a girl's body". And while girls wearing slacks has helped them during winter and decreased s*xual harrasment towards them, there's still the point of contention with letting a "male-looking" student wear skirts since, to Japanese parents, it goes against the greater societal gender normative and might increase bullying. Guess some things are still really hard to change but at least I can say queer awareness in schools has increased. I also remember I saw a 2020 poll somewhere that showed how 80% of voters (can't remember if it was parents of their children, I'm sorry) would appreciate for schools to allow uniforms to not be strictly gender-coded, so the progress is there. Slowly, but surely. While this info could very well go into a future Naoto analysis, I thought it was important to adress it at the very least.
Im so ready for Persona 6 having a gay romance option specially since LGBTQ+ rights are progressing in Japan too, plus they tried it already with a cut content witb Yosuke
With both kanji and naoto, I always got the impression that the writing team had an impression of the queer people they were trying to portray, but didn't know those people or their struggles very well and things got a little confused in the process. Kanji got a better end of the deal in my opinion, but then again I'm pretty solidly on the side of Naoto's narrative paralleling the transmasculine experience so their side of things is a lot more complicated for me.
Just recently finished P4g for the first time and Kanji was my favorite character in the game. I wanted to slap the shit out of Yosuke during the campout. Even if I do recognize how realistic his reaction is given the culture of Japan (and even American) when the game released.
Cant wait for all the people arguing that kanji is not a queer coded character and going through Simone Biles-esque mental gymnastics to erase its presence in the game
I can't wait for people to completely ignore the core theme of the game (Seeing beyond the surface to find the truth) and base a character solely on his Shadow (Which was mostly a manifestation of the collective's subconcious thoughts)
@@Aigis31I have, three times, Persona 4 original Golden vita edition Golden PS4 and Switch , I just couldn't remember how to spell his last name so don't make assumptions I never played them
So, I know that there's quite a lot of discussion on whether Kanji is gay or straight or whatever, but this character means something so much more to me Kanji being comfortable with himself and the themes of self-acceptance really helped me come out as bi, so, thanks Kanji for helping me realize such a big part about myself :)
Regarding Kanji's sexual orientation, I think that this part of his character is in line with his overarching theme of a confused teenage boy trying to understand his feelings, who he is and what it means to be a man, and not that oh, he's gay, straight, bi etc. He's discovering his own sexual orientation during the game, as well as discovering what it means to be a man. Actually, with all the information we get during the game, I think it's impossible to say with confidence what his sexual orientation is. And I myself being a straight male who also was confused about my own sexual orientation during my teenage years, this understanding of Kanji's character resonated a lot with me.
As a gay guy, I don't really take Kanji as gay, which tends to be my large issue with the topic of Kanji. But he does have the Shang Li level of Bisexial Panic over Naoto which is adorable. Albeit... a cannot think of anyone who actually fell for the Naoto plot twist.
Personally i loved his crush on Naoto. I could never bring myself to Romance her, cause i didn't want to get in his way of shooting his shot. I also loved his chemistry with Rise. Though as a heterosexual man. The older i get the more i relate to him. I ride a motorcycle, have piercings, tattoos, and my coworkers say i have resting psycho face, but i love cartoons and cute wholesome things. I have a small collection of plushies both horror and pop culture based. While i dont like it when people say he's gay at it feels reductive to his character and interests, i actually do look up to him to remind myself others may find my eclectic tastes weird, but at the end of my day its my happiness i have to worry about.
While I certainly won’t deny that there are several elements to Kanji’s portrayal that have aged poorly (mostly in relation to his interactions with that homophobic jerk Yosuke), I overall found Kanji to be the most nuanced and fleshed out member of P4 GOLDEN’s cast, with his character arc & dungeon providing some interesting discussions about overcoming toxic masculinity and internalized queerphobia. Heck, the main reason why I ended up hating Yosuke’s character so much was because of how much I enjoyed Kanji!
I was really happy when I found out that Utada Hikaru came out as Nonbinary. I feel that's a great sign for people being openly LGBT in Japan Regarding the booze thing, I think Kanji has definitely tried alcohol before, but was also pretty inexperienced. So while he did notice the drinks at the party didn't smell like alcohol, he was probably just like "eh what do I know" and didn't really question it after
Ughhh, the whole thing of watching people go "teehee I'm not racist!!" and then straight-up say honestly REALLY RACIST SHIT about Japan (like, ranging from the basic "our virtues are better/Japan's so backwards", to some...truly awful shit that no one should be saying about any country literally ever imo) is just...like...god. I've seen it way too often, especially in the context of differing cultural taboos, and how things like censorship and certain types of content are handled very differently between countries. I could go into a whole rant, about all that stuff, about the people I've spoken to and since cut ties with partially because of this kinda behavior, and so on, but Kanji doesn't deserve that in his video. As for Kanji himself, I absolutely adore his character, but the jokes do make me kinda sad and make it just a bit harder to enjoy the game. If you had shown it to me back when it was released, I probably would have never had a problem with it (going back to really old videos and things I used to watch without batting an eye is...an experience for sure, things have both changed a lot and also not at all), but... Outside of that, it's kind of amazing how I just took it for granted that Kanji went for the specifically American type of masculinity. It feels like I should have realized that that's what was going on and everything, but I think it was a weird one-two combo of "ah, familiarity" and "this is a Japanese game about kids in Japan, surely there won't be anything heavily my culture in it!" (Not that I've ever -directly- thought that, but indirectly...) Finding out that America going around and trying to colonize everything has fucked up LGBTA+ stuff in other countries, probably entirely for the worst, is both unsurprising to me and also slightly surprising (in that I've never actively thought about it before but thinking about it, it's a very "wait...yeah that seems about right actually" feeling) and...frustrating. I'm glad for any helpful medical advancements it brought, at least? but man... Now I'm pondering what other things I've missed in the stuff I've read and watched where it's actually a thumbprint leftover from American culture in one way or another, and it just...didn't register because I either blanked on it wholesale or because it's not entirely obvious until someone tells me, even if it feels like it should be obvious in hindsight--
Honestly I hope they don't censor Persona 3 Reload. They said that it was supposed to be a faithful remake I hope they don't scale back on Operation Babe Hunt at all, If they do then I'm gonna be so pissed.
@@disgaealikerasapOG It wasn't "localizers", Atlas themselves made the change to the game fully in all locations. If you don't like changes, don't play the game, getting upset over developers choosing to remove things or add things is childish.
I dont understand why the scenes shown or the overall results of Naoto's arc/reveal are homophobic? I never understood that nor why over 10yrs later people are applying this to P4... like lets retrospectively judge something by modern standards because its important to the development of culture, instead of seeing them from their time? Early 2000s we were lucky to mention LGBTQ stuff, let alone 'thinking' about it... despite in my high school years (2003-2007) 'gay' being very much treated as a trend more then legitimate sexual orientation. We've gotten a bit over that, but honestly not really... just more accepting of those that are legitimate, while dealing with those doing 'insert X thing here' as trend chasers and i personally just ignore them. At the time P4 was honestly groundbreaking... for two reasons, it BOTHERING to show this stuff, and TRYING to address its complexity with individual vs social conditioning and expression. I dont say its the 'best', at the time yes, but also i never interpreted it as 'intentional representation', this was made by ppl just going over the hump of 'haha that's gay' cultural 'acceptance' and at the least recognition, to my level of high school teens/young adults of the time who were only a step ahead with 'gay is a trend' and now not even 20yrs later its just 'oh yea, so what? Thats always how its been' blithe acceptance in modern culture... at least surface level, it seems to be relatively considered a 'non-issue' as we have other letters to whinge about~ My point being, they werent being delicate nor truly 'accepting' when writing Naoto and Kanji but like how the jokes of their generation 'softened' the vibes of queer acceptance to my generation, it did lead to something that would imo lead to where we are now with there being a LGBTQ main character in everything nowadays and no one bats an eye. I personally enjoy that it wasnt the 'focus' but still an integral part. Kanji is queer in my opinion, same as Naoto is very non-binary by todays terminology, but i would NOT go so far as to use third terms (her whole thing is ACCEPTING her femininity and her actual interest in BEING it, female but not a 'woman' per say is what ive come to start calling this NB type) but again, their 'results' werent so much important as the fact they were EVEN EXPLORED FAIRLY SERIOUSLY! It allowed and showed a whole generation, mine and at least the kids after me, to see that it was FINE to be questioning: yourself, societies view of you, your interests, your expression, etc. Its a very important step culturally, especially at the time. No one knew these terms, but we could all understand the questioning, misunderstanding, and the cultural/social bs that was 'kids are assholes' cause everyone seems to find SOMETHING in school to pick on everyone about. That leads to insecurity and childish compensation (Kanji and Naoto are seriously the best examples) but also that... its fine, we can fail, we can mess up, it takes time to figure this stuff out... and often we will change over time... kids to teens dont know this yet, so panic when they meet their first 'challenge of self' and well.. Thats P4 in a nutshell. I find it really weird everyone looking at it now as 'bad representation' when... at the time, that wasnt even the idea, nor the concept i think that mattered... kids dont know themselves get bullied and misunderstood all the time and react often overly so to it... and its a back and forth of confusion until something of one's core self sticks. So the ambiguity of their 'final results' is probably the most realistic, especially for teens of the early 2000s... Both address questions on the social norms of gender and the expectations of family businesses and one's role. (Kanji's dad was the original Tatsumi indicating his family were the tailors, his mother joined, so yea his dad would have supported his son liking fabrics~) and Naoto's is a line of MALE detectives, leading to her 'expectations' issues and crossdressing (i call it dumb binary [and now aspie] logic, but thats just my opinion~) finding the spot either could fit while dealing with society bs outside the home vs in the home is another facet to their whole complicated issues with gender, identity, and orientation. Overall both lean on a general 'be yourself' thing and... honestly thats kind of the best answer, when thats basically the message of the whole thing. 'Be true to yourself' and that identity can be complex, and thats fine. I honestly liked to joke with other fanfic writers when i wrote for these two, that despite their subject matter, in the end they are probably the straightest out of the whole team... owning more to neither seems to particularily care then really much else (besides Kanji's crush, which gives me more demi vibes~) and the rest of the team, while externally framed as 'typical' are just so... well, c'mon, first dungeon people? :P they just brush it aside and never talk about it... 'joke' about it in ways that were normal at the time (yosuke) but criticized now as harshly homophobic, when at the time it was just a dumb casual thought. Im not saying its good, just realistic, and without it there wouldnt BE any conflict... the team DO cover for Kanji and Yosuke does figure out what he says/thinks like that towards a trusted friend is wrong... sorry, we NEED that kind of representation too, cause people are idiots, especially kids, and we NEED to see that these thought patterns exist, often innocuous parroting, with no real understanding, so we CAN challenge it, and change it, as the characters do... then the main 4 wind up being more read as 'closeted gays' then these two by the end, but whatever, the two apparently done as a literary joke are the ones hyper scrutinized~ the rest of the team meanwhile squeak by unseen~ just saying *shrugs* And just cause externally it 'looks' hetero, doesnt mean it is... so many in the community seem to forget this despite how much its thrown back in their faces. Queer, bi, demi, ace, pan, etc. All a thing... and not something you can 'see'~ but even in the community and overall society very much unrecognized. But... P4 exists, Naoto and Kanji exist, and if they represent anything, its that young confusion trying to figure yourself out when you arent like everyone else nor have an easy label to grab... Kanji helped a lot of guys accept their queer thoughts, and some went on to figure out they were gay, some not (i live with two examples), while Naoto represented both what would become the Trans ideology but also a feminist ideology that being female shouldnt be seen as a hindrance, cause thats what she chooses and winds up being successful as. These are stories that help by parallels, not dogma. *shrugs* just saying, from someone that played from the original and experienced these same kinds of questions.
Hes not gay, his whole thing is that he just likes cute stuff. His shadow shows his insecurities on that specifically, and he was able to suss out Naoto bein a girl just from interacting with her even if he couldnt put his finger on it.
Maybe I'm a minority here but I always viewed Yosuke as queer too, like the kind of so in the closet you heavily apply negative stereotypes about sexuality to others to distance yourself from that reality as much as possible. It might be personal bias since I had a bit of that myself when I was still learning to accept myself for who I am (not much bi rep when I was growing up, what little there was was always negative and I was heavily stereotyped by my peers who read me before I was even out) but it's just hard for me not to read his homophobic interations with Kanji and his insistance that he's *definitely* into women and pushing that so hard he borderline harasses his feminine friends as him just denying an interest in men as much as he can. It probably wasn't meant to come off that way and it was probably all for laughs cuz "ha ha pervy guy" trope but hey, I can HC what I want
personally i like my gay friends and support them, but i believe that media representation of the queer community on media is always open to criticism, specially since if they decide to include it, Atlus or any other Japanese studio, they will be compared to "how it is done in the west" and honestly i think it is a bit overdone here. What I would like from video games and media is to present stories with a purpose and a degree of cohesion that i can actually enjoy, if the story calls for a queer character, then make it happen, do not force it how it feels so often on Hollywood productions. If the story takes place in a city, like I don't know Tokyo, then it is well expected to encounter more queer representation, on the contrary, if the story is based in a small Japanese town, like in persona 4, without any natural reason for a queer community to exist in it, then dont include it and do actually make the characters react how they are supposed to. In kanji's case, i would have liked if Yosuke, a city boy. would treat him with more respect, as it would make sense for a character with a higher likelihood of having encounter another person from the queer community, I think what is most upsetting, at least for me, is that Yosuke of all characters should not be the one making those comments, I do think they have a place in the story giving the setting but not from the city boys, unless the objective was to make Yosuke somewhat homophobic, which would be a bad character trait for a main character, but if explained and if the character showed some growth along the story I thing it could be compelling. What upsets me is the lack of remorse or growth from Yosuke, i would be fine if the story changed a bit to suit a more developed look from Yosuke towards his possible queer friend.
I’m of the opinion that Kanji and Naoto are somewhat progressive characters (for their time period at least), but then this video reminds me of how passive Japan’s bigotry can be towards marginalized groups so it puts me in a tough spot lol. I get the importance of criticizing the things you love, but I feel like the moments where Yosuke makes fun of Kanji are very few and far in between that it shouldn’t ruin things for me, but it’s hard for me to say that without feeling like an enabler of these issues. I’ve been trying to control the selective abstraction part of my mental health, where your brain hyper-fixates on the negatives rather than the positives. Kanji is still a well-rounded character with a good message on toxic masculinity, and means a lot more than the sum of P4’s problematic parts. BTW Lady, since you speak of more positive LGBT+ representation from Atlus, have you played Catherine Full Body? Admittedly, that game has some mixed to positive reception, but it’s undeniable that the game tried to address the more problematic elements from the OG Catherine. Hell, it was Hashino who produced the game and wanted it to be more inclusive, but ultimately its execution is for you to analyze.
Hey guys, just wanted to say I intentionally focused more on LGB, etc. (i.e. sexual orientation) topics and public figures in this one. I saved most stuff regarding gender identity topic for the Naoto video. I personally don't read her as trans, but the conceptualization of her dungeon/shadow makes it a pertinent subject to discuss.
Also another note, thanks for bearing with me when I generalize some cultural regions & their relations to other areas of the world. Even though America is way more on individualistic spectrum than many of the European/other Western cultures, the way philosophical thought shaped the sense of self and the way institutions are viewed across the Western world is much more similar to each other than Confucian and Buddhist inspired East Asia.
Also in general with these broad overview analyses, tons of stuff I have to leave out since the main points of the video would get lost in tangents (each one of these has like 5+ pages worth of cuts). Thank you for your patience... I get my health issues makes the long time it takes to make each one of these behemoth analyses take even *longer* since the numbers of hours I can function well are limited.
If you liked this video would really appreciate the likes, shares, etc.! Thanks!
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Always a pleasure to hear your Socio-cultural analysis of these characters and I feel like these generalisations you mention are at least an interesting for me to consider. If anything it gives me a chance to consider how similar or different my own Sinic cultural background is from the Japonic background of the games here
All that said, do take care of yourself too 🙏 Can’t wait to watch this video in full
Thank you for covering topics of one of my gaming series
I hope honestly never saw naoto as trans either more or less her own thing she was dealing with not being taken seriously being a woman and being more masculine I personally ignore the toxic people who flame and treat their head canons like gospel both sides really its good to speculate on such topics without being A flame sorry for this stupid visual novel sized comment keep up the entertaining content.
Naoto and Kanji are always such touchy subjects in the persona fandom and it always bugs me. Its totally fine to not read Naoto as trans, and even not read Kanji as gay - plenty of people have questions about their sexuality without ultimately deciding that they're trans or gay or whatever, so its still fine to have those stories... but it bothers me to no end when people treat LGBT fans as crazy for taking these stories and identifying with them and headcanoning them when they lack many other good official forms of representation, both in the Persona fandom and media at large.
Whenever people DO show interest in Kanji or Naoto as viewed through an LGBT lens, you always have people swooping in to remind them that Naoto isn't trans, and Kanji's never confirmed to like guys, as if a persons headcanon or particular way they appreciate a character threatens to destroy the fandom as we know it. Regardless of how intentional the themes may or may not have been, they represent a lot of what the LGBT community wants to see expanded on, and if the devs aren't gonna do it, its not like its too surprising to see the community doing that themselves.
@@MissingNoviceon the other end, I personally have issues with people treating headcanon as fact. If they simply said that it's headcanon, this whole thing wouldn't be such a divisive topic.
Late to this discussion, but being a gay guy who isn’t hyper “YAAAAS QWEEN!!!” even back then, seeing a character like Kanji made me realize that being gay didn’t have to be the sole defining feature of me. It is a big part of my humanity, but not the end all be all, and who and what I am is not set in stone. So ye, Kanji is best boi.
as a guy who was never "traditionally" masculine (no sports, no womanizing) i gotta say kanji really did help me become not only more confident in my own masculinity but also help others in their masculinity
and while his struggle with sexuality didnt have any actual relatability, it did very much so point out how we conflate hypermasculinity with heterosexuality and anything less than that as gay which is an interesting thing that definitely should at least be acknowledged, because it is true and present in society
One thing I've always found fascinating about Kanji: his reception is something of a microcosm of how queer representation in media has changed over time. In the 90's and 2000's, anime and JRPGs would often feature queer-coded characters, who were often censored or "gender-flipped" in the western localizations to avoid any implications. (See: the infamous changing of Sailor Uranus and Sailor Neptune to being cousins, I think Sailor Moon also had a queer male villain changed to female)
Then Persona 4 came out in 2008. At this time, I think, Mass Effect only had one same-sex romance option, and it was a one-gender race of female-presenting aliens who were all biologically bisexual, and it still got massive backlash from mainstream media. I don't know how many of you here remember the old Extra Credits video, and while I don't agree with a lot of their takes (they were notoriously anti-JRPG back then and very America-centric), they argued that not only was Kanji 100% gay, he was also GOOD REPRESENTATION.
Fast forward a decade of more after P4's release. Queer representation in western media skyrocketed, especially in children's cartoons like Korra, Steven Universe and She-Ra. And Kanji, who used to look like positive representation, came under much more scrutiny. At the same time, the Persona series seems to have gone backwards in representation with the Shinjuku Creatures and all moments of potential queerness between party members being treated as a joke. I've always said that western games couldn't have gotten away with a character like Kanji in 2008... but I doubt a Japanese game could get away with a character like Kanji now. (This is just casual observations of media on the internet, if you disagree with any of this feel free to correct me)
EDIT: I really hope I didn't fall into the "westerners know better" traps you mentioned late in the video. Trust me, I've seen that attitude in JRPG discourse for years and I HATE it (e.g back during the Metroid Other M fiasco, you saw tons of "of COURSE it's portrayal of Samus was sexist, it was made in Japan for a Japanese audience" and... then people looked at what Japanese fans were saying and they had the exact same complaints about Samus' writing that western fans did)
Also some additional things
People in the western countries did praise stuff like yaoi and Yuri for gay representation. But people look into more and having better representation. Many people realized some "oof" stuff with alot of yaoi and Yuri.
Japan has made, if slow progress on lgbt+ rights. I mean they recently trying to repealed the law that if someone changes gender, they have to be sretlized.
I would also add that persona backwardness to lgbt+ stuff is also being pretty bad compared to other series like fire emblem that seems to at least taking the right steps with there gay stuff(with engage almost making everyone who marriable be bi).
I still think a character like Kanji can be made today, but I think the stuff "he might be queer" would be downplay or more stated about his masculinity to not cause confusion.
@@starmaker75 i have honestly seen only few good yuri and yaoi mangas, most of the once i have seen especially for yaoi are every disturbing in the lack of consent way while alot of yuri is made for men to sexualize lesbians. i have meat alot of people who only think that none western countries have a problem with the LGBTQIA+ community but thats just not true, like look at alot of states in the US who are trying to make not falling into the bullshit gender standards illegal. you could also look at some european countries like poland and russian which both have massive issues that are often worse then countries outside of europe. people want to think that the western wold is more advanced in most social discourses then none western countries. while i can't say if we are or not i definitely can say that we need to fix our countries before looking at other countries.
@@starmaker75 I want to comment about an information i get while searching for this topic seeing an anime about an openly lesbian character 2 months ago, yuri, gay and BL are esencially marketed to women readers thats why the lack of humanity or consent while theres others genres made by gay and lesbians like "geikome"
@@guillermocervisalmeron2209 Yuri is already primarily made BY queer women FOR queer women
Term "gei" in Japanese only refers to men so it is primarily made by gay men ONLY
@@SupaSoCola i dont think its the case, i dont know why (i guess because is hot or something) but women x women is more accepted
The topic on Persona 4 and LGBTQ representative has been a infamously debated topic on the internet so throwing my hat into the ring is probably just asking to be jumped from all sides but here goes:
I don't believe Kanji's dungeon and arc is entirely his sexuality. Shadow Kanji is moreso an exaggerated representation of how others view him, a insecurity that is a result of what the world typically deems as feminine hobbies.
He tries to, but ends up overcompensating this by acting as stereotypically masculine as possible to fit into society's rigid gender roles, causing everyone around him to subconsciously imagine him to be a gay man, and/or a loner delinquent.
His entire arc is about accepting himself (yes, what pretty much the entire game is focused on), realizing he can like whatever he likes and feel whatever he feels without fitting into some specific box society tells him to be in order to be a 'real man,' that wasn't 'a strange guy.' In order words, his stories all about toxic masculinity.
Now, I don't think that doesn't necessarily mean that Kanji isn't attracted to dudes, the common arguments for this include is how Kanji is clearly attracted to Naoto at the moment he meets her, at a time where he fully believes her to be male and how he gets a nosebleed while looking only at Yu and Yosuke. Now a lot of people will use these examples and say how it was a missed opportunity to not have a romance option with him or whatnot, but to be honest, I don't really agree with that either.
His entire arc is that he doesn't need to conform to what the world tells him to be, and that he can reveal his tastes, hobbies, and _wants_ at his own leisure, there I say, at his own pace.
I'd go as far as to say that the player, both You and us, aren't entitled to know Kanji's sexuality, at least not until he's conformable with sharing it and that confirming it more in game would be detrimental to how his character was written.
Now Yosuke though, yeah that one you got me, that man is a mess and the leak for his romance path with the protagonist is nothing but a fumble on Atlus' end.
Yes, all the shadows are part the individual's own insecurities, and part what the collective outside wants to see (all the viewers of the Midnight Channel/residents of Inaba).
I think the "conclusion" of Kanji's story is a fine thing. As I said in the video, there's nothing inherently wrong with Naoto being a girl in the end and he's still just as attracted. Queerness is a spectrum, and bi and pan folks exist. And I agree that in real life we're not entitled to know people's personal sexual orientation, and Persona games are written to speak to the audience and their real lives ala what Hashino said himself in the Metaphor interview.
On that note, I cut this part from the video since it was already getting too long, but ambiguity about life and people is generally much more tolerated in Japanese culture. It's why it's not so uncommon for characters to have pretty subtle and/or ambiguous motivations and thought-process in film, anime, and other Japanese media (i.e. things never being confirmed). Interestingly enough there were a number of queer Japanese interviewed back in the 2000s by Dr. Mark McLelland, and a common view of the older folks was "Americans see things in very black and white -- you're either gay, or you're not. We are more comfortable with the concept of being gay and not being gay at the same time." The younger generation seems to have a more increasingly solid understanding of their identity though, most likely attributed to how connected the world is now and all the major social media sites being American-created/owned, so a lot of *our* cultural influence seeps in and changes the existing perception.
But with that said, it just doesn't feel great that the Developer interview speaks about the queer identity representation in such a dismissive/non-serious way. Like it's used in a merely novelty-seeking way... In-game resulting in a number of instances where Kanji's possible gay status was treated as a joke, or even fed into the falsely perpetuated stereotypes of society via the rest of the party (mostly Yosuke on the latter... 😬). I talked about and showed a good number of them in the Atlus Dev interview, preface section. The harm/hurt in those scenes are for LGBT+ players who *do* happen to have a strong sense of their identity, only to see that part of them treated as a joke basically, or just plain weird (in other words "not normal"). And for non-queer folk it just adds an additional piece of evidence to the patterns our minds make and store in our subconscious.
I still don't think its deliberately malicious on the dev's part, but a result of growing up in a homophobic environment. I have hope any new queer characters in P6 onwards will be handled with more care though since the internet makes it so much easier to learn about LGBTQ+ community even if you don't know anyone personally around you.
In the end Kanji's still a very human, nuanced character, and all the mishandlings of the gay stereotypes shouldn't dismiss the exploration of masculinity and gender roles imo. The primary focus of his arc I've always seen as on gender expectations, but I still think it's important to bring up the sexual attraction thing still being a part of it too. I think it's basically cherry-picking to only focus on one or the other (he's only about gender norms vs. it's only about his sexual orientation). Two things/concepts can be true and explored at the same time and humans are often complicated like this lol! (btw I'm not accusing you of being in the "either, or" camp, I'm just speaking about it in general).
Thanks for the thoughtful comment!
@@LadyVirgiliathank you so much for this comment. Truly validating and dare i say, healing.
In my view, I don't think Kanji is outright gay at all. He is bisexual at most, but more likely sexually confused. The debate he is I find quite ironic because P4 is about seeing nuances and developing understanding from a myriad of truth and not about passing judgment with ignorance.
The Midnight channel is not at all like P5's Metaverse. It's not someone's cynical worldview they're hiding. It's actually more of their societal view from gossip, remarks, and ignorance. So shadows are less of the literal Jungian idea of "evil side we hide from others", but more like one-dimensional representations of these characters (since they got on the Midnight channel from being featured in the media). That's why it makes more sense that the characters reject the shadows initially because it takes things that might actually be insecurities but paints them in the worse possible light with none of the nuances. The persona awakening is them being able to self-actualize as they don't have that romanticized vision in their heads after seeing how others view them. Therefore, they don't run away from their problems. Remember that personas are how we portray ourselves, so it shows a social evolution, not necessarily just a personal one.
With Kanji, his tv show is gay themed, but I think partly because it portrays the ultimate stereotype of a feminine man. Exactly what people saw in Kanji all those years back when he was just into things deemed slightly feminine like sewing and home economics. In reality, those were just some parts of his gender identity that didn't match one to one, but it didn't mean he was thing caricature of a sissy like people made him out to be, and part of that caricature is being homosexual. Os he fled into denial of being uber-masculine to appease his father's wishes and had some pent-up animosity with women who had bullied him.
Kanji is really attracted to Naoto, but because she's female. Naoto isn't a transsexual who fully appears male, she just dresses a bit more like a man and claims she is (partly to be more respected in her job and to not feel like an outsider). Kanji is insecure because he faces the prospect of actually being attracted to someone he hears is male and is reassured after the fact. He even asks Naoto to join the beauty pagent to appear more female, making him even more attracted. The nosebleeds I think are more of insecurity since he was lambasted as homosexual and seeing how his projection was erotic bathouse. In every other scene, he treats them just as freinds even during the beach scene where they're all mostly undressed.
So everyone who writes him off as "the token gay representative" is doing the exact opposite as what the game is advocating. It holds as much validity as saying Rise is an incredibly promiscuous teenager when she hasn't even had a boyfriend.
@@BDeity Persona 4- "To grow as a person you have to look past the fog of lies in your head and see people for who they actually are, not how you want them to be."
Persona fans- "OMG KANJI IS GAY!"
Me- "That's... you missed the entire message of the game."
I salute your grit tackling this incredibly dense, risky and tangent-riddled subject.
Every single one of your videos have allowed me to gain a better appreciation of many pieces of media, not just the games you use as reference.
Thanks to you, the incoming P3 remake should be even more of a treat :) .
Best wishes and happy Halloween.
I enjoy these videos so much.
Thanks for this, it really means a lot! I'm aware I invite all sorts of dissenting voices when I cover topics like this 😬 But I'll always feel compelled to talk about them anyway! Love seeing the increased appreciation for all kinds of media out there!
Hope you had a happy halloween 👻
Kanji was/is actually one of my favorite characters in all of Persona. From his struggles to how he retains his sense of self through them have been a great motivator over the years.
Well, since you asked, here's a little something about this gay man. In 2009, I was already 22 years old and in my fourth year of university. It was in college, away from my hometown that I was finally able to explore gay men in media. There weren't any I could find outside of the classic Rocky Horror Picture Show and the yaoi manga I started buying from Amazon. But then, there was P4, the original PS2 release. Kanji was the first gay, or at least bi, character I ever saw in a video game. I was excited during his monologue, and when the battle started, I remember thinking finally, someone else said the unspoke parts out loud. There has been much debate over Kanji since then. But for me, he was the first gay (or at least bi) character I saw somewhere other than a yaoi manga. I remember the parallels between his character and me when I was in highschool. I also took home ec and wasn't interested in traditionally masculine high school activities. I got picked a lot for it and was ultimately forced to defend myself with violence. Kanji was essentially me in a video game.
Anytime I see people talk about how Kanji is totally 100% gay, I show them this video(and especially to extra credits for popularize this misconception).
Me personality I think Kanji might be bisexual/pansexual as he did somewhat show some attraction to naoto when she was disguised herself as a boy. However if you ask me, Yousuke act more like the guy in the closet then kanji, given he was original a gay option.
Also I admit persona's lgbt+ representation is.....quite mixed. Sure there is Aigis, Jun, and maybe Akechi(seen him more asexual), lala-chan and Kanji. however there was that crossdresser trapping men in persona 3, some of the "gay jokes" in persona 4 , and the freaks in persona 5.
I'd also add Hiding in Private's video to that list.
Modern persona is very transphobic and homophobic for sure. They have so many scenes that they could've just not included or chose to exclude in the re-releases, but as even P5R shows us, ATLUS *REALLY* wants to keep including the scenes even if they tone down the bigotry a bit. It's disappointing.
@@Aigis31 An important thing to note about P5R that I only realized on watching Censored Gaming's video, the Shinjuku Creatures scenes were toned down in the Japanese script too, albeit slightly more subtly than the English one. (But one notable point is Ryuji no longer refers to them as "bakemono" [monsters], but the more neutral "these guys") I hope this 1, gives hope that later Persona games will do better and 2, shuts up the people going on about "the woke localization ruined everything".
@@Aigis31hope they include even more jokes in the future, you ppl need to get over yourselfs and learn a lesson: the world doesn't revolve around you
@@Aigis31lol this is funny asf you think that way
24:10 it's why in DAN, he states once this festival is over with, he's ditching his punk looks again, he done pretending to be someone he's not
Very interesting video. I forgot just how much Kanji's arc also touched upon sexuality as well as gender norms, and I'm really glad for your nuanced opinions. Kanji and Naoto are both characters that I think definitely need this examination from the more interdependent view of self that is more common in Japan. Hence why I think this video is really necessary. It's not often as simple as "you're either gay or you're not", as many people see it.
But I'm really really thankful that you mentioned the ethnocentric issues that I tend to see with a LOT of Western discourse on Japanese media. It's always been really concerning to me to see, and as you rightfully said- it doesn't mean that certain issues in said countries should be excused, but the lack of empathy for other cultures lived experiences is shockingly devoid from well meaning people.
I personally try to look at P4 through the lens of the time. As a cis male that isn't very masculine I feel like it's better than most games from that time. It clearly has problems, but the characters are absolutely lovable. I also saw a lot of the conflict coming from society and less as flaws of the characters. I first played P4G in 2022, so that could just be my brain trying to justify it. I also feel like the 2 P5 characters are worse than anything in P4.
As a biracial Latin cisgender gay male myself I definitely resonated with Kanji's story: his varying reactions to different parties of people remind me of my tendency to code switch when I was his age.
I appreciate the part of his social link where the young boy thinks his doll making was cool: though subtle, it did have a slight commentary on how the next generation was less binary when it comes to gender norms.
If you wanna talk about code switch let's talk about Nice Guy and Tough Guy as part of his shadow. I love Kanji so much.
In my over-analysis of Kanji's boss fight, I consider the "Nice Guy" and "Tough Guy" (alongside the obvious reference to "uke" and "seme" dynamics in Japanese queer media) symbolic of the two identities Kanji is stuck between, feeling he HAS to be one or the other to meet social expectations when in reality he's got traits of both, like most people. The fact that they and Shadow Kanji's battle form is half black and half white also plays into this, Kanji's own "black and white thinking" regarding masculinity. Speaking of which, one of his attacks literally inflicts Poison status on males. Literal toxic masculinity? (Inflicting Rage on females could represent his internalized misogyny)
6:04 Aaaaaaaand this sums up why I think Hector in Fire Emblem 7 deconstructed toxic masculinity before it was cool! For 90% of the game his ENTIRE character is using anger and stoicism as an outlet for everything, and by the last few chapters (which you only realize on Hector's route) he's on the verge of a breakdown. It's part of why I ship him with Lyn so hard, because through their conversations she helps him be more open with his emotions, while you also learn that she initially disliked him for reminding her of how SHE used to act.
lol putting up the Patreon plug as you mention the power of friendship, nice timing.
9:11 This part actually sums up why how a lot of American media handles school bullying bothers me (it generally boils down to glorifying "vigilante justice" over de-escalating conflict or going to teachers) but that's an entirely different topic.
13:40 This moment still gets to me as a huge P3 fan. Akinari's still changing lives even after he's gone.
17:26 Hmm... while my father didn't pass away, he did divorce my mother when I was young and it's been mostly me and her, and I feel like I've kinda gone through the same thing? I can get pretty protective of her.
23:35 Aaaaaaand this is why I hate that Q2 acts like Kanji and Ryuji are similar when, outside of gameplay, they're REALLY NOT. They both aren't "really" delinquents, but their reasons for adopting the look are radically different. Kanji wanted to match society's image of a man, Ryuji felt he might as well become the thug everyone saw him as. (Also, Ryuji is a lot more legit anti-authority than Kanji) If Ryuji stopped bleaching his hair, I'd take that as regression, because he'd be giving in to society's expectations. But with Kanji, it's a sign of him accepting and being open with who he really is. The delinquent look was a LIE.
26:24 "It's not like I have any internalized homophobia for my unused voice clips or anything!"
29:54 This is something I've kind of noticed about myself lately. Just about every paring I ship in media I enjoy is heterosexual, and I think it's in part due to there being no "normal" same-sex relationships portrayed in the media I grew up with. And unlike a lot of fans, canon means everything to me in a work, and I'll never ship something without at least some canonical evidence. There was the odd queer-coded side character, but the focus "OTP" couple would be strictly male/female. I later came to enjoy the same-sex romances on Critical Role, but the first protagonist same-sex romance I encountered in a videogame and genuinely considered well-written was in Hades, which I played in 2022. Sometimes I wonder if I'd ship more same-sex pairings if I'd grown up in an era with shows like She-Ra or Steven Universe.
Granted, while the increased representation is good, there's some nuance re: the online discussions on ships, in particular I find that stuff that gets a hetero ship deemed "problematic" often gets a pass in a same-sex one.
33:54 Pokemon Conquest includes Nobunaga's Wakashu, Ranmaru, as a playable character, and the implications of their relationship still very much exist. (Granted there's some potentially iffy portrayals, like Ranmaru being roped-into an "all-girls" competition) And he makes quite the impression as he's brutal to go up against in combat, both early (Dragon Rage vs low-level Pokemon is brutal) and late-game (his "ace" is Lucario).
39:02 Takezuchi Auchi on the left there. He's clearly meant to be a parody of the samurai nobility class who refused to let go of their past glory and status during the early Meiji period.
Your statistics re schools in Japan are one my favourite things about your videos. I would've expected it from students, but I had no idea TEACHERS got in on the gay jokes in Japan. (Well, probably in the west too and I was just lucky my school wasn't like that)
Regarding Japanese society, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've heard that a lot of the older ultranationalist politicians use modern Japan's declining birth rate to campaign against LGBT issues, viewing same-sex relationships and transgender people as a THREAT to the country via their inability to have children. At the very least, I know Dragon Quest's infamous composer (who's also part of the Nippon Kaigi I think) has made comments to this effect.
Regarding the "cultural imperialism" aspects, a long time ago I heard that (once again, PLEASE correct me if I'm grossly misrepresenting the culture) the very same societal expectations for men that are the source of Kanji's whole arc were partly brought on by western perceptions that Japanese men were "too effeminate".
The final section was the perfect summary. I feel like these days, we judge Kanji and Naoto from a 2020's western lens, while forgetting that, by 2008 standards it was rare to have these issues explored AT ALL, and both are well-rounded and likable characters whose arcs have more good than bad.
I like playing with character interpretations in fanfiction - it's a fun way to challenge my own views and to think of characters in different ways.
Just finished this video with a couple of friends. We wanted to say thank you for adding more context and providing a voice of compassion multiple times in the video.
Thank you so much for this generous tip! 🙏 Really glad that the content in this video resonated with you and your friends!
@@LadyVirgilia It really did! We're all looking forward to your Naoto video too! Overall, just glad to see you still doing these videos. Your voice in these subjects have really helped.
as a queer man who first played Persona 4 Golden when I was finding myself, Kanji is easily my favorite character, he really meant something to me
Can I give you a big shout-out for being so willing to discuss the harms of colonialist Christianity, knowing your personal faith? Colonialism just ruins everything. But you've done a great job covering as much nuance as possible and it's clear that you have a lot of love for all of these topics.
I think people occasionally focus too hard on putting a label on things that don't always fit exact labels...as an ace person I once described a crush on a girl as not being "attracted to girls in general...but I'm not attracted to boys in general". It's complicated for me because I'm not aromantic, but I've never fully been able to understand what a partner's body has to do with anything. It's intersecting for me to see a case like Kanji's, where it's pretty clear he fell for Naoto, not "boys". Even if Naoto had been a man (or a trans man) it wouldn't be an obligation for Kanji to identify as gay or bi. You can be 99% straight but with an exception, or you can decide to be in a romantic relationship with someone you're not sexually attracted to. (Not that there's anything wrong with calling yourself bi if you have one exception!)
I just generally see some of these discourses as a little too....well, binary.
My short description of Kanji is: bisexual blunt tough guy with girly interests. In the end "Manly men wear pink" trope exist for a reason.
Sidenote: I have some things to say about people's opinions on Naoto and Yosuke but I'll save it for later.
Lady, I’m only 47 minutes in, and I am here to say thanks. Thanks again for providing us with the most cultured (in the most respectful way) videos you’ve ever posted.
Kanji has always been my favorite character. When I reached his dungeon in p4 thats when I fell in love with p4 and then the persona franchise as a whole. I very much connected with Kanji as I grew up with 2 sisters and ended up watching and enjoying more "feminine" things such as MLP and what not. Because of this I would always get picked on or couldn't relate to what most guys were talking about. Kanjis story in p4 made me want to express myself more and not be afraid of liking things that I like. There maybe homophobic, transphobic, and fat joke scenes or messages in persona but I often look past them as the positive messages, characters, gameplay, and stories far outweigh them for me (they still piss me off when I see them tho). I wish we could get more stories like Kanji talking about men enjoying what they enjoy and be true to themselves, not being afraid of expressing yourself and loving and accepting yourself even if others don't. We need that kind of messaging for men ESPECIALLY in this day and age.
Kanji, da boi! :D my favorite example of the “Deliquent with a Heart of Gold” in Anime up there with Jouichiro/Joey Wheeler
Kanji is an Otomen (otome man), guys who like girly things, like cute stuff, and femine interest.
Oooh, this is gonna be good! Been waiting for ages, and it's been worth the wait! I'm glad you were able to release it without taking a big health hit
I love Kanji and I can emphasise so much with him as a straight guy. I hate how society views masculinity. I'm sensitive, romantic, cry easily and I like cute stuff. Doesn't make me any less of a man. I played P4 only recently, after I already learned these life lessons, but I still loved the representation.
I really hope someday you decide to cover the Persona 2 Duology characters, especially Eikichi.
As much as I loved Kanji when the game came out and wanted to praise his inclusion, the writing pretty quickly showed its ass by fumbling his character arc pretty badly, muddying the message and doing him (and those of us who just want good queer representation) pretty dirty. I can realize now that, like you addressed in the video, I had imposed my radical queer Western Liberal expectations onto a Japanese product that was informed by different cultural/social constructs and standards. Also, as a writer I have to remind myself that creative expression is very personal, and as much as we want it no creative OWES us queer representation, unless that's a story they specifically want to tell. BUT I still think there was a way they could have written Kanji to lift him up without punching down (tl;dr alternate dungeon and Shadow idea at the end).
The message of self-acceptance and freedom of expression, in Kanji's case, "There's nothing wrong with men being gentle and compassionate, or having interests and hobbies that are socially ascribed as being feminine, and you should do what you love regardless of how others perceive you" is valid, and important. But my issue with the way they handled that message with Kanji's character arc was that after his dungeon, the implication was, "Don't worry guys--he's not ACTUALLY gay, his Shadow just manifested that way because society/his own internalized shame conflagrates feminine hobbies with homosexuality. He likes to sew, but he's not actually gay, you guys--look, he got a nosebleed from the girls in their swimsuits!! He tried to jump into bed with a female teacher to 'make [himself] a man'!!" THAT'S what really bothered me about Kanji's writing. In that straight-up offensive scene at the school camping trip, with Yosuke's out-of-nowhere homophobic accusations (a whole other can of worms)--the issue as presented in that scene is that it's unfair that Yosuke assumes Kanji's going to r*pe them in their sleep or whatever, because Kanji's not actually gay you guys, and "totally okay around girls now" in his own words (like the bi erasure is real y'all, but that's beside the point). Not that Yosuke's being shitty for propagating the false fear-mongering that non-straight people are predators--the framing is that that shitty take shouldn't apply to Kanji, therefore it's uncalled for. He even runs out of the tent to go raid the girls' camp to prove he's not gay i.e. not a threat to Yosuke and MC. From what I recall, you're not EVER given a dialogue option to tell Yosuke to cut his shit out whenever he starts up his "no homo" routine, because the writing frames that as the "default" or expected reaction. (Perhaps in his aborted romance arc it would have come up, and recontextualizes this as internalized homophobia, but we'll never know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
The writers simultaneously leaned in too heavily with the "Kanji might be gay" jokes, and also backpedalled extremely hard to show that he's not actually gay, you guys--which I don't know why they even bothered because it's still pretty obvious to anyone with eyes that Kanji is likely bi/pan, or at least questioning 😂 His interactions with Naoto pre-reveal and even his Social Link interactions with MC being prime examples. But there could have been a middle ground that showed Kanji's trauma resulting from being bullied and rejected by his peers, his internalized toxic masculinity, and his persisting fear of not being accepted--and also not understanding his true self and what he wants very well, having blurred his identity behind an over-compensative and self-protective tough-guy persona (heh). But what we got was "haha lisping mincing Shadow and bara boss fight."
Just spitballing here--there's a Japanese term with a relatively negative connotation: 草食(系)男子 (herbivore men)--basically the equivalent of Western "soy boy/beta male". They could have played up his Shadow to be pathetic and non-assertive, with Kanji's father's last words of, "If you want to be a real man, you need to be strong" echoing through his dungeon. They could have still kept the rose motif, with his palace being a greenhouse or a "secret garden"--his Shadow could just run away and hide from them, or be completely unseen and unreachable atop twisting vines covered with thorns--but as the party pleads with him, "It's okay, we just want to see the real you! You can show us!"--the real Kanji is terrified at the idea of them seeing him, and goads his Shadow to "toughen up like a man and quit runnin' away". Hearing the promise of finally being accepted, the Shadow bud blooms into a delicate flower, with Kanji the way he used to look when he was younger at its center, maybe meekly doing some needlework, begging them not to judge him, or make fun of him, or throw him away. Kanji is so disgusted with his weak, people-pleasing former self, and so embarrassed that all these people are seeing it, that he rejects it outright, causing it to go berserk and explode into a hyper-masculine, violent Shadow--thereby also commenting on how toxic masculinity ultimately hurts men. There could be a motif of tightening string or suffocating cloth as the boss changes phases. In the end, Kanji can only accept himself by reaching a hand down to his defeated Shadow, his "pathetic" former self--and telling him it's okay to be soft, it's okay to be himself. He doesn't need to change to be accepted by other people.
... Or, you know, stop being cowards and actually have an LGBT+ character that's not a punchline. One or the other! Or both! It's the "at least he's not gay" part that really grinds my gears.
Ugh I could go on all day about it but you get my point 😂 They really did my sweet boy dirty, and with just a few tweaks and rewrites he could have been *chef's kiss* 😘🤌
... Also, let's not even get into the discourse of why "feminine" hobbies are seen as inherently less valuable, or why it's more socially acceptable to make fun of "feminine" interests in the first place. Like how the "professional chef" sphere is very male-dominated, whereas "cooking" for a family is still seen as relegated to women, and most high-profile female chefs are still marketed as "home cooks" for relatability 😒
I hacked UA-cam so i could like this comment twice
I played P4G over quarantine for the first time and I was a 16 year old male at this point. Kanji’s story (flaws aside) actually made me feel a lot more comfortable about questioning my sexuality and helped me come to terms with being bi
Another excellent video with a lot of interesting context and angles to consider! Fwiw I do think you handled the several more delicate topics with nuance and grace.
As for Kanji's character growth - I think one of the most quietly important reasons is his friendship with Rise. I love their relationship, and how she immediately establishes this sort of brother-sister dynamic with him (possibly because of his complete lack of interest in her as a girl or an idol lol). Rise rags on Kanji all the time, but never for what he likes or how he behaves -- it's always clearly affectionate. I like to think that helped him move past his scarring earlier experiences with the mean girls.
A video about the best boy on my birthday? Neat!
Happy birthday
Your birthday is on Halloween?!
Anyway happy birthday to you my friend
Happy birthday!
Hope you had a great bday and halloween!
Hi LV! Really good video! I'm at an interesting intersection as a Western Japan fan who is both Christian and LGBT (Asexual-Aromantic). It frustrates me how my faith has been used to push down on LGBT (due to mistranslations/broken context, but that's a whole other post) -especially since one of the earliest people to join the movement was an African eunuch who by today's standards would use they/them pronouns-, but I think you covered the sensitive topic very well and showed the good and bad in both West and Asia with the hope that LGBT acceptance is improving. Personally, I liked Kanji in P4, my big gripe was Yosuke never having an arc where he went from 'freaked out' to acceptance with Kanji as that could've been a great vehicle to show people how to walk out of preconceived notions. Like you said though, they seem to be doing better and I have high hopes for P3Reload! I liked how P5 Royal changed the interaction with the gay NPC's, but I assumed that was for western audiences only, was that change also present in the Japanese script?
I knew Persona 4 existed during my high school years. I was heavily encouraged to play specifically it, but getting my hands on a copy was stupidly difficult. I managed to find and play P3F (which is still my favorite Persona game to this day), but I regrettably didn't get a chance to play P4 until well into my adulthood.
Another fantastic video Lady, keep up the great work!
I tend to read Kanji as bi. Granted, I'm bi, so there's probably bias. (BI-as! hahahahaaa. haaaaaaa...) But I think it also works in context of the story. It's yet another thing that Kanji doesn't understand about himself, adding to his confusion. He rejects his "flamboyant" Shadow because that's NOT him, but he's not totally straight either, and so he struggles to grok his in-between-ness.
(Which also puts him further in parallel with Nauto, who's in a similar - but distinct - state of in-between-ness.)
Loved this video. As a gay man myself who was 17 when I first played Persona 4, I was always really drawn to Kanji because of how much I related to his struggles with masculinity, what it means to be a man, and all the other complications that part of his character dealt with. But I was a lot more mixed on what the game had to say about his queerness/questioning status, and this has only intensified in the years since (I'm almost 22 now). What you said about how his feelings toward Naoto not changing once she was revealed to be a woman was portrayed less of an exploration of bisexuality/pansexuality and more of a "relief" really resonated with me, because that's by far my least favorite aspect of his character.
I really loved that you criticized all this while still explaining why it was written like that in the first place. It had me thinking about how much I view Kanji and Persona 4 from a western lens, and I feel like I have a much broader understanding of the cultural context behind this game and his character.
As someone who played Persona 4 on release and has watched the way the discussions about it have evolved over the years, you definitely get props from me for taking on a big, complex topic like this with such care and attention. You covered basically everything that made me love Kanji to the point where he's not just one of my favorite characters in the game, but all media ever (though I definitely missed or forgot him saying "his parents" were like that about the fabric business instead of just "my mom" - it really makes me think Kanji's dad may have been a lot like him when he was younger!).
I always feel like an important detail that tends to get left out/forgotten in debates about what constitutes good representation (believe me, I am not 100% saying Atlus does nothing wrong ever here) is that the Midnight Channel is explicitly stated to reflect peoples' thoughts. Yeah, Kanji's Shadow and the bathhouse are full of homophobic stereotypes - because the people who disapproved of or ostracized him over his hobbies were more than likely thinking that's how he 'really' was. And Kanji had definitely picked up on at least a little bit of this and internalized it, to say nothing of his own fears concerning masculinity. A Shadow is everything hidden about you, and in almost every case that includes a lot of self-loathing, so part of me thinks Shadow Kanji is the mental image Kanji used to beat himself up when he felt ashamed. Though I suppose you could say that's just the Doylist side of the matter.
I think it was a huge missed opportunity for the game to not have Kanji and Naoto talk more about gender norms and identity - at least, I don't remember it coming up much, and I didn't play Golden myself. (Good luck tackling that kettle of fish as well, and I'm also using she/her in this comment for Naoto despite personally viewing her as varying nonbinary identities over the years.) It's really interesting how they both deal with the same issue in different ways! Kanji has elements that don't fit in with the idea of a "man", so he buries them to be more like that idea, whereas Naoto has elements that don't fit in with the idea of a "woman", so she distances herself from that idea. Heck, even the negative stuff Shadow Kanji says about girls probably aligns with how Naoto is afraid of being seen as one, rather than the collected intellectual she aspires to be. Can you tell Naoto's the other character that became very firmly planted in my brain, by the way?
I discovered your channel just today, and I doubt you'll read this, but I just want to say I'm in awe of how many and how detailed all your analysis of not just Persona 5, but Persona 4 (and I believe Persona 3 as well if I'm not mistaken) are. I'm thinking of maybe starting to make similar (albeit probably shorter, as I doubt I can do research as good as you seem to be able to do) analysis videos, so I feel like there's a lot that I could stand to learn from how you carry out your own videos. Thank you for doing such good work!
Honestly I always Just wanted to give Kanji a hug. He reminds me alot of myself. People have alot of thoughts about him but very few truly know him. I relate to that hard and consequentially he is one of my favorite social links.
OMG I WAS WAITING FOR THIS MY WHOLE LIFE. I really loved your P5(R) analysis, and I was really waiting to see your P4 analysis! I have no idea if you've finished it by now (and maybe debating on a p3 analysis...), but this was a great episode.
Thank you so much for this! As a gay man myself, I really appreciate your delicate and nuanced description and analysis. I personally don't love Persona 4 as much as 3 and 5 because of what I feel was a bit of a bait and switch with Kanji and Naoto. At the same time, I think heterosexual male characters with passions for things that are culturally deemed more feminine are important to see in media. Overall, I think I still very much like Kanji and Naoto, and I think Persona 4 is a very good game, even if it doesn't speak to me, personally as much as 3 and 5.
Your voice sounds nice, and you seem to be a nice person. Thank you for the video.
The thing people miss about Kanji are his parents. Out of all the teammates, he's the one we spend the most time with his family (his mom). That's intentional. We are reminded about his mom over and over through his social link, and by extension, the absence of his father. He doesn't talk about his father much, but his absence is a looming shadow over the whole thing. Kanji reveals he fought the bikers trying to be his mom's protector, a role his father once played. Kanji is his mom's emergency contact when she goes to the hospital, like his father used to be. He's trying to fill shoes he feels unfit for because of his misconceptions about what a strong man is.
Kanji's whole story is a boy trying to be a strong man without having that role model show him how, so he has to make it up as he goes and ends up leaning into misconceptions he has.
That's why he loves Yu. He's this guy who appears to have it together and isn't worried about what other people think. He's in the drama club and babysits kids, but he also plays sports and stuff. Yu has that masculine/feminine balance while being the strongest man he knows. Yu becomes Kanji's north star of sorts.
My interpretation of Kanji is that he is, at the start, uncertain of his sexuality due to constant accusations because of his typically feminine hobbies, however due to Kanji's fears of rejection instead of figuring out the answer to his uncertainty he blindly chooses the one he wants to be true (ironically that is the correct answer but he doesn't truly know that until he lets himself actually contemplate it) this denial of self-reflection is what leads to Kanji's aggressive "masculinity" as he's trying to convince everyone, especially himself, of the image he wants to be real without actually knowing it to be real, this is also why Shadow Kanji is so aggressively the opposite, he's trying to make Kanji doubt himself as by doing so it would allow Kanji to come to the truth, by acting so flamboyant and saying he's "the true self" he wants Kanji to stop denying his self-doubt and to actually reflect on the matter.
Troy Baker is a national treasure
Kanji has the luxury of being voiced by TWO national treasures (him and Matthew Mercer).
Regarding how divergent sexuality was seen as "unnatural" despite not being name any reasons, I personally believe there is no such thing as unnatural. Humans are a naturally diverse species to accomodate for different roles in society and even modern ways of life could be considered the destined outcome of mankind's inherent curiosity and generational teaching capabilities. Anything a human can do is human nature at work. (Not to mention that sexuality specifically can take many forms in other species. Bonobos, our closest relatives, are majority bisexual.)
Did Kanji predict the Me Too Movement?
When I palyed persona 4 I felt really represented by Kanji, there were times when I felt bad because I liked dresses (for women, not for men) or things like plushies, people called me gay or fagot and in some point I tought I may as well be, but never ever have I feel atracted by another man, so I really didn't know were I fitt, so I started leaving things I liked and never talked about it because I am a man.
But when I played this game it actually helped me to embrace those things, I have plushies of my own now, and really like to see pretty dresses and asthetics of outfits, go shopping, etc, as well as I love seeing action movies and boxing, man I love that I feel good being a man.
As a side note: When people say Kanji is 100% gay and it is a queer icon I feel...kinda bad, this character helped realize there is nothing wrong to like what I liked and still be a straight man, and can still be strong and a "good man" even tho I like the style of dresses. And I know this is a little bad of me, but when I discused about this with some people they were like "you are gay and don't know it" or "step out of the closet honey, we will help you" it really triger some bad memories when I didn't know what I was, this actually make me really prejudice of queer people when I was younger, but I'm not like that anymore, I think queer representention is a good thing, and should get more representation in media, but forcing their way in it is not the way, it may hurt people like me who can't see that they are their unique person and don't need to put themselves in a social box that someone built for you.
I did not grow up with Persona 4, but I did play it during High School. Other than some factors outside of his own control, I think that he was done super well. He's a character that you can separate from his possible representation and is a well rounded and relatable character. If stated explicitly and without the sort of problematic things his friends say to him, I would consider him perfect representation. As someone who is bi, his whole personal story really speaks to me not in a pandering sort of way, but that he is trying to be proud of his own identity. Be the person he wants to be.
I absolutely adore all of your video analysis!! Theyre always so detailed and interesting, i definitely need to watch more! I only discovered this channel yesterday but its one of my favourites already :) im so curious about Naoto video, cant wait for it
Hey hey, speaking as a bi guy in response to 57:15.
I quite genuinely love Kanji as a character. Not just because he's like me, and not just because I absolutely agree with him that Naoto is adorable regardless of gender norms. But because he's such a big, lovable, goofy dumbass who has immense nuance to his entire character. I love a character I can respect, and who can wear his heart on his sleeve with pride.
Oh, he definitely knew that wasn't booze. I'm sure he's had to wash stains out of clothes before, and isopropyl alcohol is great for that (depending on the fabric and stain type). It has a very similar biting smell to rum and whiskey.
I've really been enjoying your analysis', keep up the great work!!
I tend to respect media that attempts to address a difficult topic and fails more than one that doesn’t try at all.
I'd normally agree, as long as the "failure" isn't really offensively bad, which is what I experienced with autism/aspergers-coded characters growing up. Nearly all of them were horrible human beings and more like sociopaths than autistic, and it sucked when that was the only representation you got.
@@BigKlingy Yeah Fair. Sounds Terrible having to see that.
As I've discovered more about my gender and orientation and everything else, a lot of P4 like... I mean it's cliche to say it didn't age well, but even beyond that, which I could get over, I'm so tired by it a lot of the time. Tired of the same repeating no-nuance discourse? Tired of gamer chuds ignoring half of Kanji's entire character so they can say queer people are willfully misinterpreting his arc. Tired of liberal Americans saying that Persona as a whole is just garbage because it doesn't share their current politics. (To be clear, I do think the old stuff that hasn't aged well is worth calling out, but yeah, the bit on orientalism was needed.)
It's legitimately super nice to see a video of someone breaking all of this down, from the cultural context to the aspects of the story that are being ignored, etc. You really put in the work to have a good faith nuanced conversation about sexuality and gendered expectations and how they relate to P4. I'll definitely be looking forward to the Naoto one next, since I legit believe you will do the topic justice.
I've been surprised at how many men I've met - me included - who resonated deeply with Kanji. How many of us try at some point desperately to be what society expects of us, but just...aren't.
Out of all the modern Persona games, I think 4 is my least favorite (Which is like saying it's my least favorite flavor of cake - even a type I don't like all that much is still cake), but man, did Kanji make me feel seen.
To be honest, as a western (half Mexican, but born and raised in Canada) bi fan, I think that Kanji could've been written leagues better, which can be said about all of the other queer rep in this game. However, like some others mentioned on here before me, Kanji is a time capsule of 2000s queer rep. Queer rep has come a very long way in the past decade, even here in the west, so it's easy for us to forget how far we came since 2008. It wasn't until 2012 that we got Korrasami, which was heavily censored and relied on the "word of god" on Bryke's part. Hell, just last year, The Owl House had many non binary characters and even have the female MC end up with a girl. I can't imagine something like that being green lit even 5 years ago! Japan is the same way. Yes, there is a long way to go, but I think as more and more Gen Z and eventually Alpha are put in charge of these projects things will change. Just like how things are slowly changing here in the west. I would argue that Japanese queer rep was even better at that point in time, because 90s/2000s anime like Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura and Utena had great queer rep while I can't say the same thing for western animation from that time period.
We in the west shouldn't be acting high and mighty in this area either. Both Canada and the US are passing more and more regressive laws that target trans people. The UK is having their own crusade against trans people. I wouldn't be surprised if other European countries are the same way. Much of Eastern Europe still doesn't have gay marriage rights. Western show creators still have to fight the studios in order to get the most basic of queer rep. Plus, like this video mentioned, it was western colonialism that brought about these regressive laws throughout Asia, Africa and Latin America in the first place!
Personally, I liked Kanji in P4. My big gripe was Yosuke never having an arc where he went from 'freaked out' to acceptance with Kanji. That could've been a great vehicle to show people how to walk out of preconceived notions. Like you said, though, they seem to be doing better.
Well for me, Kanji is bi-curious without a doubt, but I would say totally queer.
I mean, he's like Chang in "Mulan" : he fell in love with the girl, regardless of her sex and that's what true love is.
Oooh, this is a big topic!! I hope this gets a lot of (positive) attention! Cuz dang, things changed FAST in the 2000s, it really hasn't been that long since gay marriage has been legal in the US, and it's not legal in a lot of the world, there's a lot of "fighting for scraps" mentality when it comes to wanting representation, and yet... For most of human history, there HASN'T been the divisions in words that we have today in terms of queerness. The WORDS we have are very recent, and it's not productive to split hairs about definition when we could be making people feel welcome instead!
The phenomenon is, of course, as old as our ancestors, they just fit themselves into different boxes, because those words, those expectations, were all they had. PTSD wasn't a term until ww1, "shell-shocked" was actually created by the soldiers themselves to explain what they saw their comrades going thru. Some really talented authors from the late 1800s and early 1900s could depict a clear and obvious example of an autistic character, probably based on someone they knew in life, but used no word for it, because there WASN'T a word. They just described what they saw.
Someday in the future, the alphabet soup we use today might look "limited" or "exclusionary" or awkwardly skewed toward just one perspective, to people in the future. That's why I like the word Queer. Nice big umbrella, easy to spell, lets us have pride in being weird in all SORTS of ways! :)
Kanji having an attraction to women actually really resonates with me, I have had trouble with my sexuality before (mostly for the same reasons as Kanji) so it really annoys me when people say Kanjis character is just a poorly written gay character
And those people act as if bi/pan people don't exist, you can be attracted to both men and women. I always considered Kanji as bi because yeah he was already attracted to Naoto when he thought she was a boy but he's clearly attracted to girls too.
That's great you could resonate with him!
Even though there were some really rough scenes along the way, they shouldn't completely invalidate the other powerful messages his character sends
I came to Persona though and magen fighter with Chie in it. I played through P3 Fes before moving to the original P4. Seeing Kanji and going through his social link made me feel like I could belong. And that it's okay of you're still trying to figure out who you are^^❤
This was a fantastic analysis! Thank you so much
48:30 Yeah, people like that are the kind of people who would've loved to have been riding the black ships with Commodore Perry. They also probably thought Logan Paul and Johnny Somali did nothing wrong.
Kanji’s definitely one of my favorite characters, the perfect blend of incredibly fun yet genuinely compelling, but that wasn’t the case until my second playthrough onward, as his Social Link was one of the several things I just completely missed out on during my maiden Persona voyage. I can’t decide if making a main party members Social Link optional(as in non plot mandatory to even trigger) is cool on the grounds on encouraging player exploration/discovery, or or dissatisfying for seemingly giving those party members(or their relationship with the MC at the very least) less weight narratively. Come to think of it, the only party members in P4 whose arcana you can skip are Kanji and Naoto… really hoping that’s just a coincidence.
But yeah, Kanji’s a big ol’ emotionally insecure hurricane, with a heart that’s pure Persona 4000^ Golden, and I love him.
I first played persona 4 golden in 2018 on my play station TV.
As an amab person who has struggled with their own socitial pressures to fit into the collective interpretation of masculinity I identify with Kanji lord knows if I had played the series back on PS2 his arc might of helped me with my own journey of sexual identity.
In 2018 a lot of the more, devisive moments did rubbed me the wrong way but when I played a second time when it came to PC I adopted the mind set of, this is a depiction of a group of teenagers in 2011 rural Japan, this is probably a pretty reasonable depiction of what their group dynamic would be and suddenly Kanji had this entire other perspective to examine him from and I found myself enjoy his arc entirely differently than I did for the first time through.
I really agree with this video and I think there is a very good point that a lot of fans with similar takes to mine have a bad tendency to look at Japan or other countries veiws on queer topics and look down on them in judgement, I know I'm guilty of this and need to do better. We live in interesting times that we can look at a game as recent as Persona 4 (what was that orginal releaese like 2008?) and say things like "Yikes" and see how much has changed not just from a western perspective but also in places like Japan things are changing. Like I wonder what Kanji's story would be like if Persona 4 was coming out for the first time in 2024 and how the group would treat him. I dunno ramblings.
So I played P4G originally in my senior year of high school so around 2013. At the time I was deconstructing my Christian faith due to a lot of conflicting views I had(including lgbtq+ issues). So Kanji’s story really stuck out to me. I actually originally thought he wasn’t gay due to his social link and somewhat poor writing. But, as I grew up and talked to more people of the lgbtq+ community who played the game I definitely think differently now!
I've been waiting for this!!
as a lesbian persona fan, this video is great! i love all the nuance that you go into. kanji's story is queer, and it's important to understand the world that this story was written in. when i first played p4g, which was a few years ago, i was so excited to see a gay character, and then excited to see a trans character, and then i quickly was reminded why i don't get my hopes up about good representation LOL. the tent scene with kanji was definitely the worst scene for me, it brought up memories of my female friends gossiping to me (when i was closeted) about sharing a room with a lesbian and how they weren't comfortable because of that. and kanji's crush on naoto being a kind of "luckily naoto is a girl so it's not gay" thing was such a slap across the face. the internet discourse around these topics is exhausting, so this video was a real treat!!
also i had no idea there was a pride pin in a p3r trailer!!!!! such a cute detail that means so much to me
Ngl
I’ve been so brutalized for feeling things by people around me growing up, I genuinely don’t think I can even understand my own feelings anymore.
Amazing Video
As a gay man. Kanji was a breath of fresh air especially since I was around 18-19 when P4 first released and still learning about my own sexual orientation.
Now that I'm older and see how poor the gay jokes at his expense aged. It’s kind of a weird then and now effect. Because back then even after I came out I didn’t find the tent moment offensive and saw it as a played for laughs moment but maybe its because I was used to the fact that I could easily see the situation with some of my own friends in a casual manner. But now I see how toxic and painful it really is especially with more and more negative portrayals of the queer community as these monsters.
The funny thing is as much as I loved Kanji as a character...ironically he was my least used party member. I more often Yukiko, Chie, and Naoto or Yosuke in my party for most gameplay situations. Which sucks because I feel 4 had a very diverse and unique cast of characters but gameplay wise there was definitely a focus on who was best for most situations. Yukiko for healing, Chie for strong damage and the occasional Galactic Punt, Naoto for Hama and Mudo skills, and Yosuke for more balanced aspects.
Kanji one of my fave characters of the series
man, a watermelon!
Love it Lady!!
Yosuke next or we riot 😡 /j
I feel like Kanjis unashamed nature when it comes to his female atributes makes him manlier. I relate to him alot in that regard to not be scared to show all of your attributes "femenine" or "masculine"
50:15-50:24
I'm so dumb. My first thought was the actor from Friends showing up to Japan with an army
While not perfect, I can at least tell middle/high schools are trying to aliviate students stressing over their gender identity with the implementation of "genderless uniforms", with Tombow Gaku Seifuku (school/medical/sports apparel manufacturing company) being an advocate since the mid 2010s.
The concept of genderless uniform doesn't refer to "only one uniform type for the whole student body", instead it means that students are allowed to mix and match how they wear their uniform from a selection of approved pieces of clothing, including blazers that no longer accentuate "a girl's body". And while girls wearing slacks has helped them during winter and decreased s*xual harrasment towards them, there's still the point of contention with letting a "male-looking" student wear skirts since, to Japanese parents, it goes against the greater societal gender normative and might increase bullying. Guess some things are still really hard to change but at least I can say queer awareness in schools has increased.
I also remember I saw a 2020 poll somewhere that showed how 80% of voters (can't remember if it was parents of their children, I'm sorry) would appreciate for schools to allow uniforms to not be strictly gender-coded, so the progress is there. Slowly, but surely.
While this info could very well go into a future Naoto analysis, I thought it was important to adress it at the very least.
Naoto video comments section is actually gonna be WWIII lmao I can feel it already
Im so ready for Persona 6 having a gay romance option specially since LGBTQ+ rights are progressing in Japan too, plus they tried it already with a cut content witb Yosuke
With both kanji and naoto, I always got the impression that the writing team had an impression of the queer people they were trying to portray, but didn't know those people or their struggles very well and things got a little confused in the process. Kanji got a better end of the deal in my opinion, but then again I'm pretty solidly on the side of Naoto's narrative paralleling the transmasculine experience so their side of things is a lot more complicated for me.
Lol @ me typing this comment forgetting about my trans naoto pfp
Just recently finished P4g for the first time and Kanji was my favorite character in the game. I wanted to slap the shit out of Yosuke during the campout. Even if I do recognize how realistic his reaction is given the culture of Japan (and even American) when the game released.
Cant wait for all the people arguing that kanji is not a queer coded character and going through Simone Biles-esque mental gymnastics to erase its presence in the game
I can't wait for people to completely ignore the core theme of the game (Seeing beyond the surface to find the truth) and base a character solely on his Shadow (Which was mostly a manifestation of the collective's subconcious thoughts)
@@CryoJnikbonus points still clinging to a scrapped concept they want to forget that's not part of Hanamura's character now in 2023
@@OathKeeperRiku07bro can't even spell Hanamura right 😂 your ass did NOT play persona 4
@@CryoJnikTwitter and Reddit are down the hall and to the left
@@Aigis31I have, three times,
Persona 4 original
Golden vita edition
Golden PS4 and Switch
, I just couldn't remember how to spell his last name so don't make assumptions I never played them
So, I know that there's quite a lot of discussion on whether Kanji is gay or straight or whatever, but this character means something so much more to me
Kanji being comfortable with himself and the themes of self-acceptance really helped me come out as bi, so, thanks Kanji for helping me realize such a big part about myself :)
Regarding Kanji's sexual orientation, I think that this part of his character is in line with his overarching theme of a confused teenage boy trying to understand his feelings, who he is and what it means to be a man, and not that oh, he's gay, straight, bi etc. He's discovering his own sexual orientation during the game, as well as discovering what it means to be a man. Actually, with all the information we get during the game, I think it's impossible to say with confidence what his sexual orientation is. And I myself being a straight male who also was confused about my own sexual orientation during my teenage years, this understanding of Kanji's character resonated a lot with me.
All that stuff about "conformity culture," and the series DOES have some Queer ones?
If that's the case, go Atlus!
As a gay guy, I don't really take Kanji as gay, which tends to be my large issue with the topic of Kanji. But he does have the Shang Li level of Bisexial Panic over Naoto which is adorable.
Albeit... a cannot think of anyone who actually fell for the Naoto plot twist.
Personally i loved his crush on Naoto. I could never bring myself to Romance her, cause i didn't want to get in his way of shooting his shot. I also loved his chemistry with Rise. Though as a heterosexual man. The older i get the more i relate to him. I ride a motorcycle, have piercings, tattoos, and my coworkers say i have resting psycho face, but i love cartoons and cute wholesome things. I have a small collection of plushies both horror and pop culture based. While i dont like it when people say he's gay at it feels reductive to his character and interests, i actually do look up to him to remind myself others may find my eclectic tastes weird, but at the end of my day its my happiness i have to worry about.
Being able to flirt w Kanji is why P4G is my favorite
The point about kanji is that it's ambiguous and you shouldn't assume, but him being pan later on is fine. His only confirmed love interest is naoto
While I certainly won’t deny that there are several elements to Kanji’s portrayal that have aged poorly (mostly in relation to his interactions with that homophobic jerk Yosuke), I overall found Kanji to be the most nuanced and fleshed out member of P4 GOLDEN’s cast, with his character arc & dungeon providing some interesting discussions about overcoming toxic masculinity and internalized queerphobia.
Heck, the main reason why I ended up hating Yosuke’s character so much was because of how much I enjoyed Kanji!
I was really happy when I found out that Utada Hikaru came out as Nonbinary. I feel that's a great sign for people being openly LGBT in Japan
Regarding the booze thing, I think Kanji has definitely tried alcohol before, but was also pretty inexperienced. So while he did notice the drinks at the party didn't smell like alcohol, he was probably just like "eh what do I know" and didn't really question it after
Ughhh, the whole thing of watching people go "teehee I'm not racist!!" and then straight-up say honestly REALLY RACIST SHIT about Japan (like, ranging from the basic "our virtues are better/Japan's so backwards", to some...truly awful shit that no one should be saying about any country literally ever imo) is just...like...god. I've seen it way too often, especially in the context of differing cultural taboos, and how things like censorship and certain types of content are handled very differently between countries. I could go into a whole rant, about all that stuff, about the people I've spoken to and since cut ties with partially because of this kinda behavior, and so on, but Kanji doesn't deserve that in his video.
As for Kanji himself, I absolutely adore his character, but the jokes do make me kinda sad and make it just a bit harder to enjoy the game. If you had shown it to me back when it was released, I probably would have never had a problem with it (going back to really old videos and things I used to watch without batting an eye is...an experience for sure, things have both changed a lot and also not at all), but...
Outside of that, it's kind of amazing how I just took it for granted that Kanji went for the specifically American type of masculinity. It feels like I should have realized that that's what was going on and everything, but I think it was a weird one-two combo of "ah, familiarity" and "this is a Japanese game about kids in Japan, surely there won't be anything heavily my culture in it!" (Not that I've ever -directly- thought that, but indirectly...)
Finding out that America going around and trying to colonize everything has fucked up LGBTA+ stuff in other countries, probably entirely for the worst, is both unsurprising to me and also slightly surprising (in that I've never actively thought about it before but thinking about it, it's a very "wait...yeah that seems about right actually" feeling) and...frustrating. I'm glad for any helpful medical advancements it brought, at least? but man...
Now I'm pondering what other things I've missed in the stuff I've read and watched where it's actually a thumbprint leftover from American culture in one way or another, and it just...didn't register because I either blanked on it wholesale or because it's not entirely obvious until someone tells me, even if it feels like it should be obvious in hindsight--
Snowflake
Honestly I hope they don't censor Persona 3 Reload. They said that it was supposed to be a faithful remake I hope they don't scale back on Operation Babe Hunt at all, If they do then I'm gonna be so pissed.
It 100% is going to be censored in the west. The people localizing games nowadays are politically charged.
@@disgaealikerasapOG It wasn't "localizers", Atlas themselves made the change to the game fully in all locations.
If you don't like changes, don't play the game, getting upset over developers choosing to remove things or add things is childish.
I dont understand why the scenes shown or the overall results of Naoto's arc/reveal are homophobic? I never understood that nor why over 10yrs later people are applying this to P4... like lets retrospectively judge something by modern standards because its important to the development of culture, instead of seeing them from their time?
Early 2000s we were lucky to mention LGBTQ stuff, let alone 'thinking' about it... despite in my high school years (2003-2007) 'gay' being very much treated as a trend more then legitimate sexual orientation. We've gotten a bit over that, but honestly not really... just more accepting of those that are legitimate, while dealing with those doing 'insert X thing here' as trend chasers and i personally just ignore them.
At the time P4 was honestly groundbreaking... for two reasons, it BOTHERING to show this stuff, and TRYING to address its complexity with individual vs social conditioning and expression. I dont say its the 'best', at the time yes, but also i never interpreted it as 'intentional representation', this was made by ppl just going over the hump of 'haha that's gay' cultural 'acceptance' and at the least recognition, to my level of high school teens/young adults of the time who were only a step ahead with 'gay is a trend' and now not even 20yrs later its just 'oh yea, so what? Thats always how its been' blithe acceptance in modern culture... at least surface level, it seems to be relatively considered a 'non-issue' as we have other letters to whinge about~
My point being, they werent being delicate nor truly 'accepting' when writing Naoto and Kanji but like how the jokes of their generation 'softened' the vibes of queer acceptance to my generation, it did lead to something that would imo lead to where we are now with there being a LGBTQ main character in everything nowadays and no one bats an eye. I personally enjoy that it wasnt the 'focus' but still an integral part.
Kanji is queer in my opinion, same as Naoto is very non-binary by todays terminology, but i would NOT go so far as to use third terms (her whole thing is ACCEPTING her femininity and her actual interest in BEING it, female but not a 'woman' per say is what ive come to start calling this NB type) but again, their 'results' werent so much important as the fact they were EVEN EXPLORED FAIRLY SERIOUSLY! It allowed and showed a whole generation, mine and at least the kids after me, to see that it was FINE to be questioning: yourself, societies view of you, your interests, your expression, etc. Its a very important step culturally, especially at the time.
No one knew these terms, but we could all understand the questioning, misunderstanding, and the cultural/social bs that was 'kids are assholes' cause everyone seems to find SOMETHING in school to pick on everyone about. That leads to insecurity and childish compensation (Kanji and Naoto are seriously the best examples) but also that... its fine, we can fail, we can mess up, it takes time to figure this stuff out... and often we will change over time... kids to teens dont know this yet, so panic when they meet their first 'challenge of self' and well..
Thats P4 in a nutshell.
I find it really weird everyone looking at it now as 'bad representation' when... at the time, that wasnt even the idea, nor the concept i think that mattered... kids dont know themselves get bullied and misunderstood all the time and react often overly so to it... and its a back and forth of confusion until something of one's core self sticks. So the ambiguity of their 'final results' is probably the most realistic, especially for teens of the early 2000s...
Both address questions on the social norms of gender and the expectations of family businesses and one's role. (Kanji's dad was the original Tatsumi indicating his family were the tailors, his mother joined, so yea his dad would have supported his son liking fabrics~) and Naoto's is a line of MALE detectives, leading to her 'expectations' issues and crossdressing (i call it dumb binary [and now aspie] logic, but thats just my opinion~) finding the spot either could fit while dealing with society bs outside the home vs in the home is another facet to their whole complicated issues with gender, identity, and orientation. Overall both lean on a general 'be yourself' thing and... honestly thats kind of the best answer, when thats basically the message of the whole thing. 'Be true to yourself' and that identity can be complex, and thats fine.
I honestly liked to joke with other fanfic writers when i wrote for these two, that despite their subject matter, in the end they are probably the straightest out of the whole team... owning more to neither seems to particularily care then really much else (besides Kanji's crush, which gives me more demi vibes~) and the rest of the team, while externally framed as 'typical' are just so... well, c'mon, first dungeon people? :P they just brush it aside and never talk about it... 'joke' about it in ways that were normal at the time (yosuke) but criticized now as harshly homophobic, when at the time it was just a dumb casual thought. Im not saying its good, just realistic, and without it there wouldnt BE any conflict... the team DO cover for Kanji and Yosuke does figure out what he says/thinks like that towards a trusted friend is wrong... sorry, we NEED that kind of representation too, cause people are idiots, especially kids, and we NEED to see that these thought patterns exist, often innocuous parroting, with no real understanding, so we CAN challenge it, and change it, as the characters do... then the main 4 wind up being more read as 'closeted gays' then these two by the end, but whatever, the two apparently done as a literary joke are the ones hyper scrutinized~ the rest of the team meanwhile squeak by unseen~ just saying *shrugs*
And just cause externally it 'looks' hetero, doesnt mean it is... so many in the community seem to forget this despite how much its thrown back in their faces.
Queer, bi, demi, ace, pan, etc. All a thing... and not something you can 'see'~ but even in the community and overall society very much unrecognized.
But... P4 exists, Naoto and Kanji exist, and if they represent anything, its that young confusion trying to figure yourself out when you arent like everyone else nor have an easy label to grab...
Kanji helped a lot of guys accept their queer thoughts, and some went on to figure out they were gay, some not (i live with two examples), while Naoto represented both what would become the Trans ideology but also a feminist ideology that being female shouldnt be seen as a hindrance, cause thats what she chooses and winds up being successful as. These are stories that help by parallels, not dogma.
*shrugs* just saying, from someone that played from the original and experienced these same kinds of questions.
Hes not gay, his whole thing is that he just likes cute stuff. His shadow shows his insecurities on that specifically, and he was able to suss out Naoto bein a girl just from interacting with her even if he couldnt put his finger on it.
Those 10 seconds got cut off, I wonder if it was a glitch
>queer coded
LMAO
Man, over 10 Years, Mid High School to turning 29 on Sunday and we're STILL talking about Kanji being Gay or not 😅 🤦
Maybe I'm a minority here but I always viewed Yosuke as queer too, like the kind of so in the closet you heavily apply negative stereotypes about sexuality to others to distance yourself from that reality as much as possible. It might be personal bias since I had a bit of that myself when I was still learning to accept myself for who I am (not much bi rep when I was growing up, what little there was was always negative and I was heavily stereotyped by my peers who read me before I was even out) but it's just hard for me not to read his homophobic interations with Kanji and his insistance that he's *definitely* into women and pushing that so hard he borderline harasses his feminine friends as him just denying an interest in men as much as he can. It probably wasn't meant to come off that way and it was probably all for laughs cuz "ha ha pervy guy" trope but hey, I can HC what I want
Hi Lady!
Kanji is Best Boi
personally i like my gay friends and support them, but i believe that media representation of the queer community on media is always open to criticism, specially since if they decide to include it, Atlus or any other Japanese studio, they will be compared to "how it is done in the west" and honestly i think it is a bit overdone here.
What I would like from video games and media is to present stories with a purpose and a degree of cohesion that i can actually enjoy, if the story calls for a queer character, then make it happen, do not force it how it feels so often on Hollywood productions.
If the story takes place in a city, like I don't know Tokyo, then it is well expected to encounter more queer representation, on the contrary, if the story is based in a small Japanese town, like in persona 4, without any natural reason for a queer community to exist in it, then dont include it and do actually make the characters react how they are supposed to. In kanji's case, i would have liked if Yosuke, a city boy. would treat him with more respect, as it would make sense for a character with a higher likelihood of having encounter another person from the queer community, I think what is most upsetting, at least for me, is that Yosuke of all characters should not be the one making those comments, I do think they have a place in the story giving the setting but not from the city boys, unless the objective was to make Yosuke somewhat homophobic, which would be a bad character trait for a main character, but if explained and if the character showed some growth along the story I thing it could be compelling. What upsets me is the lack of remorse or growth from Yosuke, i would be fine if the story changed a bit to suit a more developed look from Yosuke towards his possible queer friend.
I’m of the opinion that Kanji and Naoto are somewhat progressive characters (for their time period at least), but then this video reminds me of how passive Japan’s bigotry can be towards marginalized groups so it puts me in a tough spot lol. I get the importance of criticizing the things you love, but I feel like the moments where Yosuke makes fun of Kanji are very few and far in between that it shouldn’t ruin things for me, but it’s hard for me to say that without feeling like an enabler of these issues. I’ve been trying to control the selective abstraction part of my mental health, where your brain hyper-fixates on the negatives rather than the positives. Kanji is still a well-rounded character with a good message on toxic masculinity, and means a lot more than the sum of P4’s problematic parts.
BTW Lady, since you speak of more positive LGBT+ representation from Atlus, have you played Catherine Full Body? Admittedly, that game has some mixed to positive reception, but it’s undeniable that the game tried to address the more problematic elements from the OG Catherine. Hell, it was Hashino who produced the game and wanted it to be more inclusive, but ultimately its execution is for you to analyze.