Honestly i fully believe perks like BBQ and WGLF, Prove Thyself, etc, should have kept their BP bonuses. They promote healthy playstyles, hooking everyone once, being altruistic, not doing 3 gens by the time first chase is over
Neat video, here are some of my thoughts on all this (Disclaimer, I will be analysing the argument in its most literal way, as in, would a hook win condition be good for the game): I am personally on the stance of kill=win, why? Because it is the win condition for BOTH sides, if you are a survivor and everyone escaped but everyone got hooked twice, I haven't seen a single survivor consider that a loss, you were all on the ropes but you escaped, you won, the simple fact is that I don't see survivors looking at hooks as how they win, if they escape, they win, having survivors look at kills while killers look at hooks simply creates arguments in my eyes so as a killer I look at kills, it is easy to tell how the game went that way (0k=Flawless Survivor win,1k=Survivor win, 2k=Draw, 3k=Killer win, 4k=Flawless Killer win). To me a hook win condition would make playing survivor really unfun as ultimately everyone will start counting hooks and then just give up cause, oh look at this they already got 9 hooks, we lost so there is no point in getting a clutch escape as wel... You lost, what's the point in escaping if you already lost based on hooks? Outside of camping and tunneling, I don't see strategies make people die too fast on hooks, in my games I usually get everyone on 3rd hook before I finally kill them, and if they die earlier than the rest then they were just at the wrong place too many times (I always just go for whoever is in my line of sight), as for slugging, there are perks that can counter slugging but that is a small way of addressing it, instead they should add a feature for killers that rely on slugging to be able to keep their power for longer. To explain what I mean, killers like Oni and Myers lose their time based power (or a lot of its duration) if they try and hook you during it, as such slugging is rather crucial to them since otherwise they lose a lot of their power, a simple way to stop that would be to stop the duration upon grabbing someone, while they are grabbed the time based power is stopped but you also don't lose the duration, incentivising hooking for both its benefits and the ability to prolong your power for longer. As for slugging late game, I will be honest it is really the only way to prevent the last survivor from escaping through hatch if you don't know where it is, a lot of survivors will outright let their ally bleed out when they are the final 2 and start looking for where the hatch might be just to escape, without slugging in such scenarios 4k would be almost impossible for newer players as the last survivor would escape the second you hooked the 3rd survivor for them to die. Sorry went a bit off topic there, back to hooks being a win condition, I do genuinely think that it wouldn't be the right call, it wouldn't make the game more skill based, it would make it more rng based due to it really depending on where hooks spawn, everyone would start bringing hook offerings as the rest wouldn't mean anything, why bring a Mori if it stops you from getting hooks, why bring anything that doesn't focus on hooks, after all they would now take priority, escape would be secondary. To clarify, yes survivors would still try to escape but rather than being on a count down to their death, a few survivors getting hooked early would instantly discourage people from playing as they would just see that "oh they are 2 hooks away from winning", doesn't matter if they didn't get hooked a single time, the killer got a lot of hooks. With kills being the win condition there are 2 Victories, the team victory is based on how many survived, and then there is the personal victory if you managed to survive, even as the last survivor you still get the joy and excitement of managing to escape in the end. Hooks being a win condition do not have that, doesn't matter how well you played, the killer hooked people enough times, they won, that leads to an unsatisfying conclusion, yes it might lead to a few more chases but that wouldn't matter as those chases are no longer about survival, by hook 8 the chase means nothing to the survivors or the killer as they already won, who cares if all of the survivors escape alive THEY WON, they got the hooks they needed. As for 2:32 that goes back to my previous statement of 2 victories, you died, that is a personal loss but you did a lot, if your team escaped then you got the team victory. There is no lampshading so let me put it in a clear way, if you did get something like that "Looped a lot, Unhooked 18 times, healed 93 health states" and your team still died that is a LOSS, no ands, ifs or buts, that is how games work, look at any pro match of any game, just because the other team did really well originally but then lost late game, that doesn't change the fact that they have LOST. Coincidentally, I actually think that if the devs aknowledged kills to be the win condition of the game, the game would be healthier as a result, this would incentivise the 2 Victories I keep bringing up, people wanting to escape but being equally satisfied if they helped the rest of their team escape, it would discourage leaving teammates to die in solo queue just to get the hatch as players would see that only 2 of them remain and think "ok, if we both escape that is still a draw" rather than how many see it now where upon seeing 2 players they just leave them to do their own thing, if they die they get hatch and don't bat an eye. A kill win condition simply would incentivise more teamwork, trying to get people of off hooks more, stopping killers at the risk of losing a health state, not hiding in the corner the whole match just to leave it as a 1v3 until hatch spawns. This obviously would create its own issues, incentivising tunneling, 3 gen'ing and camping but these would be easier to handle than rewarding hooks if you ask me as these are something that the KILLER has control over. To explain what I mean, the simple fact with hooks is that not all survivors will rescue you, if hooks are a priority then they will outright leave you to die to not give the killer more hooks, the killer has no control over that and as such rewarding killers for more hooks and survivors for more unhooks is just unhealthy as neither impacts the other (killers rely on survivors unhooking, while survivors rely on killers actually hooking people), Tunneling, 3 gen'ing and Camping on the other hand are entirely at the hands of Killers, they choose to do it or not. For Camping you can give bonus bloodpoints for each second that you are away from a hooked survivor, with the points being determined on how far away you are from them (e.g. 100 bloodpoints for every 10m starting at 20m away), as for 3 gen'ing, you can simply reward a big amount of bloodpoints for each unrepaired generator, this would encourage players to try and get games with no generators activated or at least limit the amount they activate, 3 gen'ing usually leaves the survivors at 1 or 2 gens left to complete so that would be 3 gens that the killer missed bloodpoints on, with a big enough reward it would encourage a lot of players to abandon 3 gen'ing to try and get survivors out before any generators are started. Lastly, for tunneling you can just make it give you less bloodpoints if the survivor you hit was on a hook in the last 60 seconds (I originally thought of making it so that you get bonus bloodpoints for hitting a different survivor but that would encourage hit and run playstyles). Nothing will ever stop Camping, 3 gen'ing and Tunneling from being a thing (and being allowed to report these would kill a lot of the playerbase, plus it would just be silly), so just giving or subtracting bloodpoints in relation to them would help encourage leaving those habits. I could go on for much longer but this hopefully gets my point across as to why a hook win condition just wouldn't work as well as some people might think, anyways, do forgive my tone in this comment, anything that sounded slightly aggressive or agitated was all for the purposes of making it more persuassive, if you have any questions or disagree, feel free to reply as I do enjoy a nice debate.
It’s funny because “there’s too much nuance to take all that into consideration” but the old emblem system literally did take all that into consideration.
Hi, I'm one of those that the Algo randomly recommended here. I quite dislike DBD, and haven't played an Asym game for about a year. But, you have a relaxing voice, and I always love listening to people talk about what they love.
I think the devs should incentivize spreading out who you're hooking more through perks again, old BBQ and pain resonance do that but only one of those is still around. Great video though I have a question, what mic do you use?w
Same. Feeling like I pulled off skilled risky plays that game I automatically consider it a gg and a win in my head. It's a nice mindset I think. But when I fumble my plays so hard I start getting very frustrated and start tunneling and camping just to somewhat make up for it
Hey I just wanted to say I love your editing, it looks so professional and you're super funny! I was really shocked to click on your channel and see you only uploaded 2 videos, I thought for sure you were doing this for a lot longer. I hope your channel grows a lot!! You deserve more viewers
after all this time, i think i finally understand the point Patrick was trying to make i mostly don't agree with it but i can see where he's coming from.
The way I've always considered a win vs loss is by Kills and Escapes, since those are the two primary objectives. I main killer, so this is how I view a win and loss: 4 Kills/0 Escapes = Overwhelming Victory. 3 Kills/1 Escape = I won. This should be the standard imo. 2 Kills/2 Escapes = Draw. Not a win, but not technically a loss either, though I hate ending games like this as I personally see this as a loss. 1 Kill/3 Escapes = Loss. 0 Kills/4 Escapes = Overwhelming Loss. I've always considered kills and escapes my source for a win or a loss. I do feel the game should be balanced more around 3 kills/1 escape though, as that feels the most like a horror movie to me, and one person getting out doesn't feel that bad. It feels like they struggled and overcame the situation, barely making it out alive, or simply managing to outlast everyone else. Balancing around 2 Kills/2 escapes is basically telling both sides they both won but also both kinda lost as well. It just makes no sense. 4 Kills should be uncommon, and anything less than a 3k should be seen as a loss.
I'd like a system that lets you earn moris for a certain amount of hook states without deaths. 6 hooks, no deaths - 1 mori 7 hooks, no deaths - 2 moris 8 hooks, no deaths - 4 moris.
yep, sadly. I hate it when people pretend on sites like they would give love and praise to killers who go for hooks, but no, they'll get losses, sore winners and mockery/bm 8 out of 10 times. It just sounds good, and makes you seem like a reasonable person, but at the end of the day people want to win. survivors want to, survive, escape, they want to feel like they fooled the killer, and they'll take the chances to be sore winners lol. let's not kid ourselves.
@@magical571 True, that's why idgaf about survivors and their rules. I'm not going out of my way to camp, tunnel or slug, but if any of these seem a viable option I have no objections to do so. I'm getting called a tunneler way too often anyway after the survivor in question constantly runs into me like a headless chicken (do they expect me to ignore them or something?). That's why I also play for kills, because ultimately hooks are meaningless. 9 hooks 1 kill is nowhere near as satisfying as 10 hooks 3k, pretending that you're satisfied with getting 8 hooks 0 kills is just a cope, nothing more.
pretty much every condition other than kills that you see suggested for measuring how well a killer played is deeply flawed, and situationally punishes killers that played well. additionally, all of these factors in the end contribute to... getting kills, so the number of kills a killer achieved ends up being a way more well rounded measurement of how well a killer played one of the most common suggestions you see is "number of hooks" but this unfairly punishes: - lethal powers such as myers tombstone, pig traps or sadako condemned - lethal perks such as rancor and 5 stacks devour hope - survivors killing themselves or being left to die - snowballing (especially on power spike killers such as oni, twins, and plague) and sure, you could make an exception for all these to count as hooks. but, when you do this you are pretty much left with a system that tracks kills you also see chase efficiency/time mentioned a lot but this can heavily punish killers that frequently take advantage of a "hit and run" playstyle like wraith or hag, as well as killers who spend chase time building their power such as myers and oni. you make the argument that a 2 kill 10 stage game *should* count as a win despite the "brutal killer" result, but this ignores the fact that kills and stages are a game mechanic - even if you have the mechanical skill to down survivors quickly, if the survivors successfully bait you into chasing someone who has less hook stages, then that is you playing poorly and the survivors playing well. you need both mechanical skill and decision making to be a good player and kills ends up being the best measure of that combination. if you want to say that prioritising kills over hooks makes the game more boring then you need to understand that that is both entirely subjective and a flaw with the game, not the win condition. if the most effective ways to win dbd are not fun, then the easiest way to win needs changing, not the definition of winning itself. yes there will be times when a killer secures a 4k through cheese strategies such as 3 gen skull merchant, basement bubba, old box blocking pig. but once again this is a flaw with the game, not with the win condition. box blocking pig has already been removed, pretty much everyone agrees that skull merchant needs a heavy rework, and basement bubba requires survivors to make multiple significant mistakes to stand a chance at being successful
I really like the idea of blood points and hooks. I think it's a great concept but the problem is it makes it too easy to reach the survivors win condition, there's not a whole lot of reward for escaping anymore. Not to mention the games would be a hell of a lot longer, or just incredibly short because the killer wouldn't be able to keep up a whole lot of pressure with those extra hooks the survs get
yep, match times would and should go up for that system to work. and i'm 100% sure no survivor is going to be happy about something like 130 secs gen timers lol, or on the other hand, a slower looping survivor speed (if they wanted to make hooking and chasing more viable without stretching match time)
i see this as sort of, playing tombstone myers and mori’ing all four survivors and STILL losing a pip, oppose to playing nurse and hooking them all at 5 gens
There's multiple factors that go into this for me For one I value the journey a lot more than the destination. That's the whole point of the game for me and its variety. I get to learn every killer and all the quirks they have to their power, experiment, and become a God, before then starting back at 0 on a different killer. I do return to favourites - I still love deathslinger for example. But once I've reached the point where I do well in the match very consistently, it's time to switch typically. However, that metric for what I consider "doing well" really depends on the strength of the killer. For example on trapper I wouldn't consider kills to be a superior metric compared to hooks. So on trapper, Freddy, etc my win condition would be "2 kills, 8 hooks". But on Blight, if anyone escapes through any means I have failed to reach my desired win condition. You can't have a singular metric for judging how well you did in a match on killer that applies for each and every killer in the game. Their strengths vary too much for that to be realistic
With your proposed solution - I think it could inadvertently encourage tunneling to give the killer more time to reach those hook state bp bonuses by getting someone out ASAP. The game should give BP bonuses + an optional survivor objective instead(Only there if the killer goes for unique hooks) to act as game slowdown that sits between generators being finished and endgame/hope+adrenaline hell as a reward going for unique hooks instead of tunneling or juggling. The incentive needs to exist for people to adopt that playstyle.
I kind of miss the old rank system for this reason. No, it wasn't the best, and newer players could get screwed over by smurfs, rank reset, ect. But what I appreciated about the old system is feedback. I knew that I had certain goals I needed to reach in order to rank up. Hooks were more rewarded because of old BBQ and they increased your rank/emblems. I could see if my opponent(s) was higher or lower than my rank post-game and that was important. The main problem I have with MMR is there is no feedback at all.
MMR in dbd doesn't really exist once you hit the soft cap, the matchmaking is very inconsistent. If you want an alternative for feedback/measuring how much you're improving in general, Nightlight is a really useful website for tracking personal statistics
I kind of just think merciless killer should be based on how many hooks you get, but make a "win" a 3k. Mostly because achievements demanding 4ks can be surprisingly brutal. I think getting lots of hooks should be prioritized, because tunneling isn't very fun on either side. But at the same time 4 survivors are insanely strong so I think killers should get some kind of passive buff for being diverse to compensate
I agree hooks are a better sign of skill and make the game healthier. If "kills equal skill" then a Bubba who finds and downs all 4 survivors in the first 10 secs is considered a win. A win condition I love to play is "rancor win". I only win if I mori the obsession. It's fun because I play normally at the beginning but as gens pop I start keeping track of the obsession
The biggest issue I see with this is that survivors can stomp tf out of killers that 12 hook, therefore killers prefer to tunnel/camp literally just to keep up with them, as you've pretty much already stated. Survivors take advantage of killers that don't tunnel/camp (not that it's their fault or anything, there's literally nothing else for them to do other than gens) and killers that realize 12 hooking is the most non-optimal thing you can do (besides using STBFL on Demo) resort to the cheapest tactics. Both tunneling/camping AND gen speeds need MASSIVE nerfs in order to promote playing for hooks and make it more optimal, while completely destroying arguable the most boring things about this game. However, that's just an opinion. Since none of that will ever happen, I'll take this moment to appreciate how much work Skrump put into this video and just how entertaining it is to listen to him talk. Also I love the RE7 music in the background, gives me so much nostalgia.
yep, people pretend like 12 hooking is this realistic scenario and any "genuinly good killer" (which is such a non-statement, that means nothing other than "if they don't play how i deem worthy, they are bad regardless of what anyone says") will have zero issue with it. Heck, people point to tru3talent and otz doing their no perks for the win challenge, and otz went in explicitly with the intention of tunneling and winning at any cost, and he did (because he not only has a n insane amount of hours, but also he left any made up rules at the door lol), but tru3 went in with not even half of otz playtime, and also still hanging onto the survivors imaginary rule book of "12 hooks or you are sluging tunneling trash", and no shocker, he did poorly. I would only respect the hooks argument, if survivors were to let go of some of their tools, like gen speeds, to not punish chases (but of course they won't). otherwise all they are saying is "we want to abuse OUR benefits, and stop you from making use of yours". One of the many necesary things to make 12 hooks realistic is to either bump up match legth via gen times, which survivors hate, or bring down their looping capabilities, make chases shorter so more hooks can be spread on the team without automatically losing or not getting to do anything. double exhaustion cooldown, bring down vault speeds, maybe make bloodlust stronger or make windows block after 2 loops instead of three etc etc etc. but i KNOW all of what i said would be herecy for most lol. But it's just realistic.
8:42 We already have a system that can handle the nuance of counting a 4k as a win without counting it as a complete win. Make it so that if you get the 4k with only 4 hooks, it counts as a Brutal Killer, then increase the quality from there. It makes it kind of like those mobile puzzle games that have 3-star clear conditions for each level: sure, you beat the level, but you didn't COMPLETE the level.
Btw the double blood points thing would also make the meta feel less strict cause now it’s not as hard to prestige a new killer/survivor without running out of items/addons
Another good ol skrumpy video... Honestly I've always preferred kills because I played Myers/Huntress who I liked just because of how good their mori animations were and didn't care much about the gameplay point of view. Though I do definitely think hooks overall are likely healthier for the game itself.
i win when im satisfied at the end, whoever escapes probably ran me really good and taught me something about chases while at it, this way i get better, i stay happy and i overall enjoy the game way more.
yeah, that cocky yet cowardly nea who tried to juice you but failed only to disappear once on deathook and then leave their last teammate just to open gates and spam loud noise notofications on a nearby vault surely taught me something (besides the fact that shitty people are common)
Kills. Swfs will freely give up hooks for various reasons. There is no easy way to get kills against a good swf. Even camping and tunneling will be countered by a circus of carry perks.
yep, i find these hook versus kills argument very silly. as if competent survivors don't already do everything in their power to make hooking a huge time sink, and at points even a detriment with aggresive use of things like decisive strike, unbreakable or saboing. For this to be realistic, then the whole game would have to change, down to every perk and timer. at the very least it would have to start as it's own separate game mode with rules from the ground up.
Raw hooks are definitely healthier for the game. But currently killer just doesn't have enough time to be a 12 hook or even 8 hooking andy before all the gens finish and 4 adrenalines pop.
What about a short base-kit Corrupt Intervention and survivors need to find parts, (auras become highlighted within X metres) to place on gens in order to actually be able to work on them? Would slow down early game a fair bit.
@@hewmanbeing it would. i don't think any killer would be against that, problem is, you'll have survivors crying. At the end of the day, no matter what some of them say on the ocassionaly positive redit thread, most want their gens done fast and without interruptions. simple as that. People like winning, and winning fast. And on dbd in particular, even a minute extra makes people be like "matches last forever" You and i may find that rush boring, but it's the exception, not the rule.
Imo I don't think the rating system should be tied to sacrifices or kills, but by how the killer plays The Entity Hungers: The killer got no sacrifices, slugged and tunneled, and only performed moris for kills. The Entity got no food, so of course it would be dissatisfied Brutal Killer: You got at least 1 sacrifice, you hooked continuously, broke pallets, kicked generators and pressured survivors. Basically a "you did okay" grade Ruthless: You got 2 or 3 sacrifices or kills, survivors were constantly put in the injured state, only 2 or 3 gens were lost, and you used your power effectively. Merciless: The Perfect Score. Absolutely no one survived. Survivors barely got a chance to heal, you kept 4 or all generators safe, chases were quick and effective, powers were used creatively and properly. A grade for a killer that was a true horror monster
5:12 Those strategies are already common, at least in my experience. I try to play this game with my missus and well the killer has decided that they want to tunnel one of us out so we try to take hits for each other but the killer either finds a way round or slugs one of us to tunnel the other.
i mean....i take your word for it. But i'll say, just yesterday, i picked up huntress after a three year hiatus, was genuinly nervous because i had been facing nothing but swfs that day who switched build at 6 seconds in lobby. So i went in ready to lose, and brought lightbringer just in case they switched too like the last two, i didn't have it in me to face that again already. BUT, what happened was that instead of flashlights, they were relying on boil over and sabo. I wanted to hook everyone twice and let their MVP go, that is my philosophy if i get to chose and it's not just a four man escape lol. But instead, what happened was, i was carrying the jill, after hooking renato and kate once each. Well, the kate wasn't a great player, i was purposefuly ignoring her to not tunnel, but she insisted on getting in my way, and there it happened.....she saboed.....i had to drop the jill, kate stayed, pretending to do who knows what, she ate a hit and didn't use the haste to get away, i downed her, i didn't want her picking jill up, who was clearly my focus at that point. renato was around, instead of resetting away with the MIA Vittorio, he was 8 meters away from me acting as if hovering around two downed teammates with no plan helps anybody. of course, i can't know till after the match what their plan was if any. I have no way of knowing who of them has a flashbang, unbreakable, for the people, etc etc etc, and they were asking to die, seriously, am i suppossed to play dumb and afk in place? they were literally coming to me even though i played dumb and pretended not to see them just to go for the zero hooks jill. wait 60 seconds for the scared vitorio to come pick each of them up before resuming? is that the level of "good sportsmanship" some people imagine as a good idea? against a team were two of them were cocky and teabagging and pallets and stuff? Needless to say, that match ended EXTRA fast and it took me by surprise, it wasn't what i was looking for at all, i just looked for a way to hook them and moved on to the next least hooked teammate. afterwards, in chat i just said that i didn't mean for the match to end that way but that they only had that kate and her sabou play to blame lol, which is 100% true. Don't do that; mess it up, make hooking both a non option for the killer then have no strong plan when they naturally look to you, then go cry on reddit or something about killers slugging. And on a different note, people will complain about tunneling when there's only two gens left. It's pathetic. Do you expect them to give you some candy too while opening the gates for you? why would they waste their time with people who are unhooked and uninjured and that are also not doing gens if they are there bodyblocking? In that scenario, your body blocking did exactly what it could, waste the killer's time and give you haste and your teammate some time, that's it, you don't know why the killer made their choice, and you shouldn't expect them to change it unless you give them a damn good reason. any competent killer knows that taking a hit is delaying the chase, you don't switch to them unless there's really a reason. "oh my, their teammate really wants to block that booty with theirs, well i guess i have no choice but to waste my time and follow them instead"
@@magical571 Listen I know there are situations like you described where the survivors bring it on themselves, I’m just referring to situations where the killer wants to tunnel 1 survivor out and will go heavily out of their way to do so. I don’t blame killers tunnelling and slugging situationally, sometimes it’s necessary to turn the tide of the match and sometimes it’s because the survivors are making it too easy for the killer to do. I’m just talking about the situations where the killer wants 1 survivor dead as fast as possible for an easy 3V1 which is just as lame as the survivors all bringing gen rush and slamming the gens as fast as possible to get 3 or 4 out in under 5 minutes.
You mentioned that bhvr is stingy with bp and now that i think about it, maybe theyre relying on that grind to keep people playing? not solely of course but just as a factor
I never really understood why this conversation is about hooks vs kills and not hook STAGES vs kills. This would at least address the concern you raise at 9:02 since a 4K is always twelve hook stages but it would make things like 8 stages 0 kills > 6 stages 2 kills which I think is far more likely to be accurate than simply counting kills. It's definitely something nuanced and I don't think it will ALWAYS be the case that more hook stages = better play but I certainly think that on average it will be a far more accurate measurement.
Id argue that if you aren’t intentionally trying to get 8 hooks, the person who got 6 hooks and 2 kills genuinely played better than you. Unintentionally 6,7, or 8 hooking without getting any kills shows a lack of game sense and target picking skills, and a lack of macro game understanding. Many people don’t seem to understand that there is more skill to killer than just “chase good”.
@@zergray6851 But saying that the 8-hook player's result shows a lack of "target picking" skills is only true if you use kills as the measurement for victory. Perhaps this player thinks stages are a better measurement of victory and thus went out of their way to target people they had not hooked toward the end of the match so they would get more stages when they died. This would still be an example of game sense/target picking as you've described it, but for a different win-condition, and we see this happen in actual competitive DBD matches. The point of having this discussion in the first place is that a "win" in DBD should encourage players who want to win to play in ways that are fun for both sides. Players will try to win regardless of what winning actually means and I think considering kills as a primary metric for victory leads to some very NOT fun gameplay (e.g. camping and tunneling) when compared to hooks or stages. This is not to say that these are perfect metrics, but I do think they are better measurements while still being simple.
@@basicnerd1347 except the thing is, you are ultimately wrong. Even if you are going for a 12 hook game, eliminating a player is ALWAYS the best move, even if that isnt part of the win condition. Eliminating other players slows the game down, giving more time for more chases and hooks. An 8 hook 0 k could stupid easily turn into a 12 hook 4k just by having chosen your targets better, which is literally better by both metrics. In competitive matches, the reason they chose to not go for a kill is almost always because of endgame, where the 3 stages from a 0 hook survivor is worth more than the game slowdown they get from killing one person. If you want to bring up comp, with the fact they are scored largely off of hooks, why do they tunnel and camp so hard? Because its still the most efficient way to slow down the survivor team and earn more hooks. Camping and tunneling legitimately do just as good at securing hook stages as they do kills, because it will ALWAYS be better to have 3 people in the match over four, regardless of win condition.
@@zergray6851 I don't disagree for the record. Camping and tunneling will likely always be core to winning killer strategy, as this is more of a "design flaw" of the game so to speak. To make camping and tunneling bad strategies would be to fundamentally change the game to the point where it wouldn't even be DBD anymore. That said, I still stand by my belief that there are many situations in which hooks or stages encourages healthier gameplay than kills alone, and far fewer if any situations where kills encourages healthier gameplay the hooks or stages. I guess we'll never really know for sure as I think it's pretty unlikely BHVR ever makes an "official" win condition, and this is all hypothetical anyway.
Hey, just wanted to say: That is not how the "performance" system works, it works on the "emblems" you get at the end of the match. You have a couple of emblems: Iridescent, Gold, Silver and Bronze (you can also get NONE but that's only if you did absolutely nothing in the certain category) Then we have 4 categories: Gatekeeper Devout Malicious Chaser All of these contribute to a certain set of things you do as a killer (for example Devout is how many sacrifices you got and Chaser is how quickly you can end chases) but I won't get into detail, look up what they mean If you get Iridescent quality on all 4 of them, that means you have a guaranteed Merciless Killer Then the lower you go the lower your "rating" and the lower your "rating" is the lower your grade is (remember grades are Merciless Killer, Ruthless etc.) That's basically a simplified explanation but there's a little more to it But one thing: If you take a long time to down in a chase, you don't get a lot of points towards Chaser If you down quickly, you get a big boost towards that emblem but, sometimes you can LOOSE points toward an emblem For example, Malicious makes you loose points if you let survivors heal (very little points but it still downgrades you, keep in mind it is still possible to get an Iridescent quality even if you did loose some points) That's all, I think that's how it works but it is based on my exp. and very little WIKI search, so go check yourself if you don't believe me/think I said something that isn't true Have a great rest of the day
I played before challenges were even a thing and for me hooking everyone to last stage and letting all escape was a win, nowadays is way harder to do that so I usually consider 4 sacrifices as a win, hooking don't do much when you get rushed and don't have the time to hook everyone 3 times
There needs to be a new type of currency tied to hooks, something that else to offers besides bloodpoint or better yet change how we earn iri shards based on hooks and teammates escapes
I think the solution is actually already in the game, as a perk. Grim embrace, or a weaker version of it, could be made basekit to allow people who like to split hooks to be rewarded for it. Maybe make it so if any survivor is death hook when the 4th survivor is hooked it won’t activate.
The thing about that though is if you want to encourage people to split hooks instead of tunneling for people who want the best advantage they can get, you need to make splitting hooks have a stronger effect on the game than what tunneling someone out does, or people are just going to tunnel regardless, because 3v1s are much more balanced in the killer's favor than a 4v1, no matter how good the survivors are
I don’t think the system only runs on kills I have had games where I get 1 kill and entity hungers but most of the time when I get 1 kill it says brutal likely due to how well I played in other areas In fact I’ve gotten merciless with 3 kills before so there definitely is more too it than just kills, in fact I think it runs on the emblems, requiring 2 gold(or higher) and 2 iridescent
It's definitely based on kills currently, in the past it wasn't like that. The only way to get the Merciless Killer result in the current game is by getting 4 kills, it's impossible to get it otherwise, which has in turn made getting Adepts a bit harder since it relies entirely on how many kills you get.
@@Real_RUBB3R ok thanks for the answer to the descepincy Though all of my recent games (besides one “the entity hungers”) haven’t given me a rank probably due to some glitch (which I think is funny enough to share)
I wish an asym game would decide to take the evolve approach of the 4v1 being the team of 4 actively fighting against the 1 instead of the 1 needing to hunt the 4 since the dbd way is much harder to distinguish a winner and their performance. Evolve it’s either the 4 kill the monster, or the Monster kills the 4 hunters. The only game that’s done this after evolve that I can recall is Predator Hunting Ground but that game seemed very barebones in comparison to the different roles evolve had
It is odd, whilst having the 7 year anniversary cake on, however even loosing matches although lots of distruction, hits, gen slow downs, and end uo getting 100k plus points per match it is odd having little point information
The only problem I have with DbD is map balance. For some reason they can't balance maps at all. Either a map has too many pallets with horrible loop situations, making it bad for m1 killers. Or too little pallets with horrible loop situations, making it bad for survivors.
I play low tier killers, mostly freddy or clown, and so I find myself not really going too hard for wins, not camping or tunneling unless its end game collapse, and just going for tome challenges. I always like at least getting one kill for me is a win against a tough team, so getting more is just a bonus for me, as the game is just going to get Bloodpoints to feed the prestige grind and to have fun. I used to take the game really seriously, but now just play with friends for fun, or play and stream me playing killer in vc.
Survivors get it in their head that victory is all survivors making it out. And killers get stuck on not having fun unless they sweat the 4k. It’s like people forgot how to have fun in dead by daylight. The trapper isn’t good for turbo sweating 4k’s. I simply find it funny when people run into my bear-traps. No, camping isn’t necessarily fair or an amazing skill. But i’d only be getting 1 or 2 kills if everyone stopped hook diving. 0 kills if people would hide. These matches are trials. And my trial is to watch your step and mind yourself. But people insist the game is about running in circles for 20 minutes. The game is about surviving. And pallet loopers have skewed the focus of the game, but I’m 5 years too late
I haven't watched the video yet, but I think as the game stands right now, there's a few ways of going about this question. Do you want more points and do you want to get pips to increase your monthly grade? If so, then hooks are better. On the other hand, do you want an adept or do you simply just want to "win" the match with at least a 3k? Then kills are better. Personally, I always try to go for more hooks, both because I want the extra points, and because I think it's a lot more fair and fun to split hooks evenly.
Perhaps the more underpowered/less toxic killers could keep kill number as their win condition while the more balanced killers would have the hook numbers as their win condition A different alternative may be having a large number of hooks count as a "flawless win" for the killer while having many kills could be just a regular "win": I believe this system would push killers into more engaging playstyles while also not punishing begginners
It's been 7 years, we don't need to wait 7 more years to do necessary changes, Tru3 had a great idea of making a "suffering" meter or something similar, the more hooks and hits you get, the better score you get, that way you don't have to delete people out of the game in order to feel like you won, getting 6 hooks already means you could have killed 2 people and secure a 4k or 3k at the bare minimun, but you decided to chase different people and have fun and give all survivors the chance to have fun chases and interact with the killer, this change would also help solve the need for tunneling and camping to secure victories, you could just happily chase a brand new survivor every time and not have to worry about being 2 or 1 gens left and needing to find that one guy who's dead on hook to try and win
but tunneling would still be superior, since now there's only three people left, so, 1 down and only 2 left to do saboing and flashlights.instead of 1 down and three saviours.just saying. i actually tested how "nice" i could be while still getting to do something, anything at all, during the anniversary (since survivors were crying so much, and i didn't want to sttraight up afk and get zero myself), and people were very shitty to you the second you weren't putting pressure on them, and by pressure i mean, unless they thought you could delete one of them. In fact, the most reliable tactic to be able to play "nice", became playing very seriously until one person was down, then slowing down unless they already were at 1 gen left. And surprisingly, doing that net me some nice matches for both sides. but see what i'm saying? only once the odds weren't all sunshine and rainbows for the survivors, only then were they open to stop tryhardying, or beg or accept mercy lol, or the bare minimum of not being asses lol. I had to bring in the ruleset myself and enforce it, because otherwise, if they had any chance to gen rush and leave at zero hooks, they would do it, let's not pretend like survivors care about the killer's experience or bloodpoints lol. There isn't a scenario were deleting one player doesn't benefit the killer. You would have to re-estructure the core gameplay.
@@magical571 That's what i want, core gameplay changes, like what they are doing with hook respawns, it will stop survivors from abusing dead zones where hooks are gone to become unhookable, it was a miserable strategy to go against because you had to bleed them out or let someone pick them back up, they should experiment with better basekit gen regression/defense and a better hook system aswell, like if you hook a survivor they actually die right away but respawn after 40 seconds in a locker far away from you and all active survivors gain a repair speed debuff for the same duration, so you get rewarded for hooking someone no matter what, but you also can't proxy camp survivors or force trade or a second stage 2 minutes into the game.
such a beautiful video idk how behavior haven’t changed there game in ways like this if anything it’s doing better for the game who would complain i still love the game but idk anymore a lot of good petenal😞😞
They should probably reward both playstyles equally when it comes to rank tiers. That wouldn't be a very hard rework if they look at hooks somewhat how comp rules are layed out.
I personally think getting 3 or more kills is a win. Simply because none or 1 survivor winning is better than 2 or more winning. I don't camp, but I do sometimes slug depending how close survivors are to the downed player. Sometimes I accidentally tunnel cause I can't tell the difference between survivors sometimes.
i half agree with you. more bps isnt the answer. there should be a max score you can achieve regardless what category you get them. make it so that you get more score the first few times you do task (dropping a chase, stunning, flashlights, etc...) and less score the longer you do the same thing. incentivizes balance play styles on both killer and survivor sides. multipliers at the end for survivors getting out or getting killed. survivor side, applies to all survivors. so even if you loop a killer until you die on hook, if your three allies get out, you still get the multiplier to your bps... just my .02
The game is designed and balanced around the assumption that killers should have a 50% kill rate, so I usually play with the idea that 2 kills equals a win and 1 kill is a half-win. Unfortunately that isn't supported either because tunneling/camping can get 2 kills easy but awards very little points (or fun), and 8 hooks with 0 kills counts as a massive loss according matchmaking (and the survivors' insults).
I generally think less than 2 hooks should be a lose against an individual Survivor, 2 hooks a tie, and more than 2 hooks a total win, and adjust MMR proportionately. Hook states from sitting on hook count as .51, so that way a first hook kill is still better than a tie, and counts as 2.02 hook states(1+.51+.51), so just a tiny win (to prevent camping from pumping ranks, and still encouraging chases). I don't think the game needs to shift around this, because the matchmaking lobbies would. You only get high MMR if you are able to consistently 9-12 hook, instead of 'cheese' kills. This also doesn't punish 8 hook games (2 on each), because everyone is tied. If the Clown or Pig can only get 6 hooks reliably, they will lower in MMR and go against equally weak opponents, until they are able to improve to the point of getting more hooks.
Personally when I play killer I just try to make my own fun, there’s no point sweating in every single god damn game. Even if I just get a challenge done or get close to finishing it I consider that a win
I usually just play killer when the bonus switches to it and alot of the time. I just get 2 hooks on everyone then just run around injuring them and kicking gens to push out the time of the match. Which generally guarantees 30k with all the survivors escaping and getting alot of points too. Just 4 kills quickly isn't worth even playing the match. Lowest ive got with a 4 kill game was 9 grand. I'm for the hooks policy
I've been playing since Beta. I judge my success by weather or not I had fun, but when I play serious, I go by hooks, not kills. But as one "Wise" man once said, "Was that really a skilled play?"
Here's the way I view it - if you absolutely want to win the game and kill survivors, you can do so incredibly easily. Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Tombstone Myers - if you want to just get kills, you can do so incredibly simply.
im survivor main and idc if i die but i wanna play the match, when i get tunneld of the hook or face camped is lame but i also agree its annoying to get gen rushed while you had only 1 chase they need to slow down the game problem is even if they slow down gens most killers are already use to tunneling and camping so it would only make games easy for killers since they woun't stop using cheap tactics...
I'm sort of a killer main although I play both sides but a majority of the time I be playing killer but I 110% agree with this I find tunneling and camping to be kinda cheap I mean it's not even an efficient tactic/strategy anymore since they implemented the swivel hook and recently removed hook grabs I mean that's why a majority of killers that face camp play bubba cuz he's really the only killer viable to do so
When you put everyone on deathhook and then get tea bagged at the exit gate with a gg ez in the endgame chat, it's no wonder KILLers play for KILLS. The opposite can be true. If a survivor carries their team and then dies in basement being slapped on the hook, they're equipping Sole Survivor and playing for their own escape.
Behavior may be greedy, but I can definitely see something like this working out, even if with way smaller numbers. Say 25% extra for 6 hooks, 50% for 9, and like 10% extra iri shards at 12 hooks. Would that 10% help? Not really, specially considering how hard it'd be to get, but it would activate peoples' monkey brains to play for hooks even if that reward is negligible. Not really sure how these boosts could apply to survivors though other than doing altruism.
I think the two are so intertwined that choosing one or the other is just a bad idea. You get more kills if you get more hooks because you're pressuring multiple people and you get more hooks if you get more kills because eliminating a survivor from the trial makes it easier to pressure the remaining ones. And I feel like there's a really big difference between "Strategically choosing your chases based of injury status and hook states" and "Tunnelling". Facecamping outside Endgame is just a dick move though.
If it wasn't for survivors attitude when 4 are alive I'd happily say hooks, but I've seem far to many toxic survivor groups at the eddgates to say hooks. (All though I do agree that designing perks that promote even hooking is the healthy way to go.)[I just wish you could promote non toxicity in survivors through perks in the same way.]
There is a problem with the hook system and its that it dosent make tunneling less viable. Imo as a killer main tunneling is by FAR the most powerful thing a killer can do in dbd since survivors only really have 1 or 2 perks to counter it and most arent used to it so it also catches them off guard, the point being if the games started to reward people for HOOKS and we will use your bp gain as an example killers will find that tunneling not only elimminates survivors FAST but also gives them extra bp for it. Throw on a couple gen slowdowns and you have a strong killer strategy that maximises your pb for it. Point is until tunneling isnt meta the game is better off sticking to kills since we dont want people getting tunneled every match
The devs are right. You're supposed to escape. You didn't, so you lost. And killer, you're supposed to kill. 8 hooks and no kills means you played bad. 1 hook that wipes out a team in a bloodwarden is a win.
I dont mind tunneling and camping, I dont mind playing for hooks. But 4 kills has definitely been ingrained in my head. I want 4k or to me I lost. I dont go out fo my way to tunnel, unless the map is horrible or the survivors are winning. But if the game didnt make you fell like you losts when 2 or more escaped when everyone is on deathhook. itd be so much easier to just not try
Hooks were better when BBQ was a thing. People were actually content with getting 4 stacks as a victory condition and promoted less camping tunneling. I don't know who started being in charge but every decision in 1 month when it was nerfed was a stupid idea.
Honestly all I care about is points, both sides, points > "winning" I dive hooks to save people in endgame KNOWING I'll be the one dead on it and I don't care, I got a shitload of points and someone, or my whole team got out. Killer is similar, though I will secure kills occasionally to make life easier.
If the match is too one sided towards killer, getting as many hooks as possible means you'll have to sort of play with your food, let them rescue and so on. Slugging for the 4k, as to not miss out on that last hook stage to secure x2 or x3 or x4. Sounds extremely boring. I see the idea, but you could still tunnel one person out and try to get at least another 3 hooks. Maybe tunnel another person out, so you get at least 6 easily and somewhat consistently. Doesn't sound like it solves the issue.
It also feels as if the game was bribing players to play in a way that's less effective, but more fun for the other side. Players aren't stupid. I'd argue, with a change like this, player behaviour would be largely unaffected after a few months regarding tunneling and camping.
10:53 - I would only ask that the multiplier be applied at 11 hooks, just so that it doesn’t punish those who want to give hatch to the last survivor 😂 but otherwise this seems like a simple, effective way to incentivize hooks. At least in theory; idk how important blood points are to veteran players. Me, I usually just play for 8 hooks and let them go, unless im really going for the 4k.
Personally I count my killer wins as all double hooked whilst playing clean (No tunneling/camping/4man slugging/ect) . Strive to be the non sweaty oasis in the hoard of sweaty killers.
Kills is more important , i use a playstyle called "El metodo del balanceo" of the youtuber "megamaan", its extremly useful, the objetive is to kill the first survivor as fast as possible, and then, we have a 3 vs 1, and believe me, 3 vs 1 ITS FAAAAR EASIER THAN 1 vs 4 with 4 - 6 hooks, believe me guys, every match you will AT LEAST get 2 kills and 1 hook extra, my advice is bring a perk "hex: no one escapes death" so if you suffer gen rush as usual, you can hunt down the last one with noed, its a extremly basic resume of the metod but believe me, its far better than the regular play style, you can use it with every character and win with it, have luck and renember!, Do not follow fake rules made by survivors, camp and tunnel doesnt means You are bad, it means that you did a good job, and people are just crying
Here is a small band-aid fix that won’t be a bad band-aid fix. Buff the absolute FUCK out of grim embrace. I’m talking like hella buff. Ever since bbq lost it’s stacks there hasn’t been a perk nearly as popular that makes people want to split hooks.
No Way Out is a good choice for splitting hooks in exchange for stalling exit gates if the game goes that far. Buffing grim embrace like you said would also encourage not tunnelling, at least not until every survivor has been hooked once.
I have always focused on 12 hooks because camping is extremely boring and no matter what players say, you’re not having fun looking at the survivor die on first hook, you are sweating nervously praying for the 4K because whoever camps really thinks that they gonna die in real life if they don’t 4K. That being said, there is 0 incentive to get 12 hooks, there is no reward and the casual players would rather use noed, camp on first hook and end up getting 2 or more kills than dedicate their time to learn the killers power. The majority of campers clearly don’t know what they are doing but it doesn’t matter because perks can easily carry them. So the question becomes personal, does e matter if you 4K standing still? You got the same results as a experienced killer player
Why cant both co-exist? for example make 2 win conditions for killer 8+ hook actions or 3/4 kills, and make survivor ''mmr'' be for the entire team so an individual can loop the killer for 7 hours, die and still get the win cause 3 survivors scaped, if both sides played well, why cant they both get a win at the same time.
The problem is this: how do you win at school? No seriously, how do you win at school? When you're given a test one day and score 80% and then the following day you're given another test and you score 90%, did you win both times? What about when you get a 60%-65% score and just barely pass, is that a win? The answer to this is that there is no concrete answer because where as win/fail is purely yes/no, school and DbD likewise work on a grading scale where how the student/player feels they've "won" isn't really fully dictated by the school/game. The truth is, it's different for everyone. Some people couldn't give a shit about school, as long as they pass and get it over with by meeting the bare minimum, that's a win for them. A high achieving student would look at that and say "Hey, that's not winning, you've gotta get at least 95% or higher in order to be winning!" DbD cannot tell you whether you've won or lost in a way that acts consistent, it only tells you whether you passed or not and if you did, how well you did while passing. What that tells the player who wants to feel like they've 'won' however is completely subjective. I can play a match as killer and 12 hook babies with no challenge and get the highest score and bps possible, but that isn't a win to me, but man I sure did pass. I could run a meme/shit build and be put up against a sweat squad with broken items and an unfavorable map offering and get only 5 hooks no kills and say I did as good as I was able to and am happy with what I was able to achieve but the game will say I didn't pass. I can have a balanced and fun match where survivors know what they're doing on a fair map and I walk away with 8 or 9 hooks where I had a ton of fun with lots of chases against good players and would say I won, but the game would say I passed but just barely. All this being said, I think there should be a feature in DbD where we go to our teacher, Mr. Otzdarva, and ask for extra credit on assignments and no more homework. I think this would fix everything honestly.
For survivors I would say escaping counts as a win. Think of it as a real life situation, sure you healed a lot and looped the killer for a while but your still dead, so how does any of that matter?
Honestly i fully believe perks like BBQ and WGLF, Prove Thyself, etc, should have kept their BP bonuses. They promote healthy playstyles, hooking everyone once, being altruistic, not doing 3 gens by the time first chase is over
they promote using same perk in every single match
@@liptonpipton4135 as if that doesnt happen anyway
@@aubendog not the same exact perk
@@liptonpipton4135lmao!!!
@@liptonpipton4135you mean, like adrenaline or made for this?
Neat video, here are some of my thoughts on all this (Disclaimer, I will be analysing the argument in its most literal way, as in, would a hook win condition be good for the game):
I am personally on the stance of kill=win, why? Because it is the win condition for BOTH sides, if you are a survivor and everyone escaped but everyone got hooked twice, I haven't seen a single survivor consider that a loss, you were all on the ropes but you escaped, you won, the simple fact is that I don't see survivors looking at hooks as how they win, if they escape, they win, having survivors look at kills while killers look at hooks simply creates arguments in my eyes so as a killer I look at kills, it is easy to tell how the game went that way (0k=Flawless Survivor win,1k=Survivor win, 2k=Draw, 3k=Killer win, 4k=Flawless Killer win).
To me a hook win condition would make playing survivor really unfun as ultimately everyone will start counting hooks and then just give up cause, oh look at this they already got 9 hooks, we lost so there is no point in getting a clutch escape as wel... You lost, what's the point in escaping if you already lost based on hooks?
Outside of camping and tunneling, I don't see strategies make people die too fast on hooks, in my games I usually get everyone on 3rd hook before I finally kill them, and if they die earlier than the rest then they were just at the wrong place too many times (I always just go for whoever is in my line of sight), as for slugging, there are perks that can counter slugging but that is a small way of addressing it, instead they should add a feature for killers that rely on slugging to be able to keep their power for longer.
To explain what I mean, killers like Oni and Myers lose their time based power (or a lot of its duration) if they try and hook you during it, as such slugging is rather crucial to them since otherwise they lose a lot of their power, a simple way to stop that would be to stop the duration upon grabbing someone, while they are grabbed the time based power is stopped but you also don't lose the duration, incentivising hooking for both its benefits and the ability to prolong your power for longer.
As for slugging late game, I will be honest it is really the only way to prevent the last survivor from escaping through hatch if you don't know where it is, a lot of survivors will outright let their ally bleed out when they are the final 2 and start looking for where the hatch might be just to escape, without slugging in such scenarios 4k would be almost impossible for newer players as the last survivor would escape the second you hooked the 3rd survivor for them to die.
Sorry went a bit off topic there, back to hooks being a win condition, I do genuinely think that it wouldn't be the right call, it wouldn't make the game more skill based, it would make it more rng based due to it really depending on where hooks spawn, everyone would start bringing hook offerings as the rest wouldn't mean anything, why bring a Mori if it stops you from getting hooks, why bring anything that doesn't focus on hooks, after all they would now take priority, escape would be secondary. To clarify, yes survivors would still try to escape but rather than being on a count down to their death, a few survivors getting hooked early would instantly discourage people from playing as they would just see that "oh they are 2 hooks away from winning", doesn't matter if they didn't get hooked a single time, the killer got a lot of hooks.
With kills being the win condition there are 2 Victories, the team victory is based on how many survived, and then there is the personal victory if you managed to survive, even as the last survivor you still get the joy and excitement of managing to escape in the end. Hooks being a win condition do not have that, doesn't matter how well you played, the killer hooked people enough times, they won, that leads to an unsatisfying conclusion, yes it might lead to a few more chases but that wouldn't matter as those chases are no longer about survival, by hook 8 the chase means nothing to the survivors or the killer as they already won, who cares if all of the survivors escape alive THEY WON, they got the hooks they needed.
As for 2:32 that goes back to my previous statement of 2 victories, you died, that is a personal loss but you did a lot, if your team escaped then you got the team victory. There is no lampshading so let me put it in a clear way, if you did get something like that "Looped a lot, Unhooked 18 times, healed 93 health states" and your team still died that is a LOSS, no ands, ifs or buts, that is how games work, look at any pro match of any game, just because the other team did really well originally but then lost late game, that doesn't change the fact that they have LOST.
Coincidentally, I actually think that if the devs aknowledged kills to be the win condition of the game, the game would be healthier as a result, this would incentivise the 2 Victories I keep bringing up, people wanting to escape but being equally satisfied if they helped the rest of their team escape, it would discourage leaving teammates to die in solo queue just to get the hatch as players would see that only 2 of them remain and think "ok, if we both escape that is still a draw" rather than how many see it now where upon seeing 2 players they just leave them to do their own thing, if they die they get hatch and don't bat an eye. A kill win condition simply would incentivise more teamwork, trying to get people of off hooks more, stopping killers at the risk of losing a health state, not hiding in the corner the whole match just to leave it as a 1v3 until hatch spawns.
This obviously would create its own issues, incentivising tunneling, 3 gen'ing and camping but these would be easier to handle than rewarding hooks if you ask me as these are something that the KILLER has control over. To explain what I mean, the simple fact with hooks is that not all survivors will rescue you, if hooks are a priority then they will outright leave you to die to not give the killer more hooks, the killer has no control over that and as such rewarding killers for more hooks and survivors for more unhooks is just unhealthy as neither impacts the other (killers rely on survivors unhooking, while survivors rely on killers actually hooking people), Tunneling, 3 gen'ing and Camping on the other hand are entirely at the hands of Killers, they choose to do it or not.
For Camping you can give bonus bloodpoints for each second that you are away from a hooked survivor, with the points being determined on how far away you are from them (e.g. 100 bloodpoints for every 10m starting at 20m away), as for 3 gen'ing, you can simply reward a big amount of bloodpoints for each unrepaired generator, this would encourage players to try and get games with no generators activated or at least limit the amount they activate, 3 gen'ing usually leaves the survivors at 1 or 2 gens left to complete so that would be 3 gens that the killer missed bloodpoints on, with a big enough reward it would encourage a lot of players to abandon 3 gen'ing to try and get survivors out before any generators are started. Lastly, for tunneling you can just make it give you less bloodpoints if the survivor you hit was on a hook in the last 60 seconds (I originally thought of making it so that you get bonus bloodpoints for hitting a different survivor but that would encourage hit and run playstyles). Nothing will ever stop Camping, 3 gen'ing and Tunneling from being a thing (and being allowed to report these would kill a lot of the playerbase, plus it would just be silly), so just giving or subtracting bloodpoints in relation to them would help encourage leaving those habits.
I could go on for much longer but this hopefully gets my point across as to why a hook win condition just wouldn't work as well as some people might think, anyways, do forgive my tone in this comment, anything that sounded slightly aggressive or agitated was all for the purposes of making it more persuassive, if you have any questions or disagree, feel free to reply as I do enjoy a nice debate.
yeah, i agree with pretty much everything. Pretty grounded comment here.
It’s funny because “there’s too much nuance to take all that into consideration” but the old emblem system literally did take all that into consideration.
Hey Skrump I know you from Scott but I just wanted to let you know your own videos have been a delight to watch. Keep up the good work!
Hi, I'm one of those that the Algo randomly recommended here. I quite dislike DBD, and haven't played an Asym game for about a year.
But, you have a relaxing voice, and I always love listening to people talk about what they love.
I think the devs should incentivize spreading out who you're hooking more through perks again, old BBQ and pain resonance do that but only one of those is still around. Great video though I have a question, what mic do you use?w
If I can pull off a Wesker tech and get value from it I automatically consider the game a win
Same. Feeling like I pulled off skilled risky plays that game I automatically consider it a gg and a win in my head. It's a nice mindset I think. But when I fumble my plays so hard I start getting very frustrated and start tunneling and camping just to somewhat make up for it
Hey I just wanted to say I love your editing, it looks so professional and you're super funny! I was really shocked to click on your channel and see you only uploaded 2 videos, I thought for sure you were doing this for a lot longer.
I hope your channel grows a lot!! You deserve more viewers
after all this time, i think i finally understand the point Patrick was trying to make
i mostly don't agree with it but i can see where he's coming from.
The way I've always considered a win vs loss is by Kills and Escapes, since those are the two primary objectives. I main killer, so this is how I view a win and loss:
4 Kills/0 Escapes = Overwhelming Victory.
3 Kills/1 Escape = I won. This should be the standard imo.
2 Kills/2 Escapes = Draw. Not a win, but not technically a loss either, though I hate ending games like this as I personally see this as a loss.
1 Kill/3 Escapes = Loss.
0 Kills/4 Escapes = Overwhelming Loss.
I've always considered kills and escapes my source for a win or a loss. I do feel the game should be balanced more around 3 kills/1 escape though, as that feels the most like a horror movie to me, and one person getting out doesn't feel that bad. It feels like they struggled and overcame the situation, barely making it out alive, or simply managing to outlast everyone else. Balancing around 2 Kills/2 escapes is basically telling both sides they both won but also both kinda lost as well. It just makes no sense. 4 Kills should be uncommon, and anything less than a 3k should be seen as a loss.
same
I'd like a system that lets you earn moris for a certain amount of hook states without deaths.
6 hooks, no deaths - 1 mori
7 hooks, no deaths - 2 moris
8 hooks, no deaths - 4 moris.
nice. well, they've been entertaining the idea of base kit last survivor mori, but this sytem wouldn't be bad either
9 hooks and 1 kill gets me bagged at the gates .
yep, sadly. I hate it when people pretend on sites like they would give love and praise to killers who go for hooks, but no, they'll get losses, sore winners and mockery/bm 8 out of 10 times.
It just sounds good, and makes you seem like a reasonable person, but at the end of the day people want to win. survivors want to, survive, escape, they want to feel like they fooled the killer, and they'll take the chances to be sore winners lol. let's not kid ourselves.
@@magical571 True, that's why idgaf about survivors and their rules. I'm not going out of my way to camp, tunnel or slug, but if any of these seem a viable option I have no objections to do so. I'm getting called a tunneler way too often anyway after the survivor in question constantly runs into me like a headless chicken (do they expect me to ignore them or something?).
That's why I also play for kills, because ultimately hooks are meaningless. 9 hooks 1 kill is nowhere near as satisfying as 10 hooks 3k, pretending that you're satisfied with getting 8 hooks 0 kills is just a cope, nothing more.
pretty much every condition other than kills that you see suggested for measuring how well a killer played is deeply flawed, and situationally punishes killers that played well. additionally, all of these factors in the end contribute to... getting kills, so the number of kills a killer achieved ends up being a way more well rounded measurement of how well a killer played
one of the most common suggestions you see is "number of hooks" but this unfairly punishes:
- lethal powers such as myers tombstone, pig traps or sadako condemned
- lethal perks such as rancor and 5 stacks devour hope
- survivors killing themselves or being left to die
- snowballing (especially on power spike killers such as oni, twins, and plague)
and sure, you could make an exception for all these to count as hooks. but, when you do this you are pretty much left with a system that tracks kills
you also see chase efficiency/time mentioned a lot but this can heavily punish killers that frequently take advantage of a "hit and run" playstyle like wraith or hag, as well as killers who spend chase time building their power such as myers and oni.
you make the argument that a 2 kill 10 stage game *should* count as a win despite the "brutal killer" result, but this ignores the fact that kills and stages are a game mechanic - even if you have the mechanical skill to down survivors quickly, if the survivors successfully bait you into chasing someone who has less hook stages, then that is you playing poorly and the survivors playing well. you need both mechanical skill and decision making to be a good player and kills ends up being the best measure of that combination.
if you want to say that prioritising kills over hooks makes the game more boring then you need to understand that that is both entirely subjective and a flaw with the game, not the win condition. if the most effective ways to win dbd are not fun, then the easiest way to win needs changing, not the definition of winning itself.
yes there will be times when a killer secures a 4k through cheese strategies such as 3 gen skull merchant, basement bubba, old box blocking pig. but once again this is a flaw with the game, not with the win condition. box blocking pig has already been removed, pretty much everyone agrees that skull merchant needs a heavy rework, and basement bubba requires survivors to make multiple significant mistakes to stand a chance at being successful
I really like the idea of blood points and hooks. I think it's a great concept but the problem is it makes it too easy to reach the survivors win condition, there's not a whole lot of reward for escaping anymore. Not to mention the games would be a hell of a lot longer, or just incredibly short because the killer wouldn't be able to keep up a whole lot of pressure with those extra hooks the survs get
yep, match times would and should go up for that system to work. and i'm 100% sure no survivor is going to be happy about something like 130 secs gen timers lol, or on the other hand, a slower looping survivor speed (if they wanted to make hooking and chasing more viable without stretching match time)
i see this as sort of, playing tombstone myers and mori’ing all four survivors and STILL losing a pip, oppose to playing nurse and hooking them all at 5 gens
There's multiple factors that go into this for me
For one I value the journey a lot more than the destination. That's the whole point of the game for me and its variety. I get to learn every killer and all the quirks they have to their power, experiment, and become a God, before then starting back at 0 on a different killer. I do return to favourites - I still love deathslinger for example. But once I've reached the point where I do well in the match very consistently, it's time to switch typically.
However, that metric for what I consider "doing well" really depends on the strength of the killer. For example on trapper I wouldn't consider kills to be a superior metric compared to hooks. So on trapper, Freddy, etc my win condition would be "2 kills, 8 hooks". But on Blight, if anyone escapes through any means I have failed to reach my desired win condition. You can't have a singular metric for judging how well you did in a match on killer that applies for each and every killer in the game. Their strengths vary too much for that to be realistic
With your proposed solution - I think it could inadvertently encourage tunneling to give the killer more time to reach those hook state bp bonuses by getting someone out ASAP. The game should give BP bonuses + an optional survivor objective instead(Only there if the killer goes for unique hooks) to act as game slowdown that sits between generators being finished and endgame/hope+adrenaline hell as a reward going for unique hooks instead of tunneling or juggling. The incentive needs to exist for people to adopt that playstyle.
I kind of miss the old rank system for this reason. No, it wasn't the best, and newer players could get screwed over by smurfs, rank reset, ect. But what I appreciated about the old system is feedback. I knew that I had certain goals I needed to reach in order to rank up. Hooks were more rewarded because of old BBQ and they increased your rank/emblems. I could see if my opponent(s) was higher or lower than my rank post-game and that was important. The main problem I have with MMR is there is no feedback at all.
MMR in dbd doesn't really exist once you hit the soft cap, the matchmaking is very inconsistent. If you want an alternative for feedback/measuring how much you're improving in general, Nightlight is a really useful website for tracking personal statistics
MMR has no means of tracking it. It's just a bad system that fails to properly pair players of similar levels of skill.
I kind of just think merciless killer should be based on how many hooks you get, but make a "win" a 3k. Mostly because achievements demanding 4ks can be surprisingly brutal. I think getting lots of hooks should be prioritized, because tunneling isn't very fun on either side. But at the same time 4 survivors are insanely strong so I think killers should get some kind of passive buff for being diverse to compensate
I agree hooks are a better sign of skill and make the game healthier. If "kills equal skill" then a Bubba who finds and downs all 4 survivors in the first 10 secs is considered a win. A win condition I love to play is "rancor win". I only win if I mori the obsession. It's fun because I play normally at the beginning but as gens pop I start keeping track of the obsession
I mean, how is Bubba here not a winner? The survivors fumbled real bad and they lost, what is this cope?
The biggest issue I see with this is that survivors can stomp tf out of killers that 12 hook, therefore killers prefer to tunnel/camp literally just to keep up with them, as you've pretty much already stated. Survivors take advantage of killers that don't tunnel/camp (not that it's their fault or anything, there's literally nothing else for them to do other than gens) and killers that realize 12 hooking is the most non-optimal thing you can do (besides using STBFL on Demo) resort to the cheapest tactics. Both tunneling/camping AND gen speeds need MASSIVE nerfs in order to promote playing for hooks and make it more optimal, while completely destroying arguable the most boring things about this game. However, that's just an opinion.
Since none of that will ever happen, I'll take this moment to appreciate how much work Skrump put into this video and just how entertaining it is to listen to him talk. Also I love the RE7 music in the background, gives me so much nostalgia.
yep, people pretend like 12 hooking is this realistic scenario and any "genuinly good killer" (which is such a non-statement, that means nothing other than "if they don't play how i deem worthy, they are bad regardless of what anyone says") will have zero issue with it.
Heck, people point to tru3talent and otz doing their no perks for the win challenge, and otz went in explicitly with the intention of tunneling and winning at any cost, and he did (because he not only has a n insane amount of hours, but also he left any made up rules at the door lol), but tru3 went in with not even half of otz playtime, and also still hanging onto the survivors imaginary rule book of "12 hooks or you are sluging tunneling trash", and no shocker, he did poorly.
I would only respect the hooks argument, if survivors were to let go of some of their tools, like gen speeds, to not punish chases (but of course they won't). otherwise all they are saying is "we want to abuse OUR benefits, and stop you from making use of yours".
One of the many necesary things to make 12 hooks realistic is to either bump up match legth via gen times, which survivors hate, or bring down their looping capabilities, make chases shorter so more hooks can be spread on the team without automatically losing or not getting to do anything. double exhaustion cooldown, bring down vault speeds, maybe make bloodlust stronger or make windows block after 2 loops instead of three etc etc etc. but i KNOW all of what i said would be herecy for most lol. But it's just realistic.
8:42 We already have a system that can handle the nuance of counting a 4k as a win without counting it as a complete win. Make it so that if you get the 4k with only 4 hooks, it counts as a Brutal Killer, then increase the quality from there. It makes it kind of like those mobile puzzle games that have 3-star clear conditions for each level: sure, you beat the level, but you didn't COMPLETE the level.
Man I wish there was more on this dudes channel, I like this kind of video! It’s like ardetha but for different topics
Btw the double blood points thing would also make the meta feel less strict cause now it’s not as hard to prestige a new killer/survivor without running out of items/addons
Another good ol skrumpy video... Honestly I've always preferred kills because I played Myers/Huntress who I liked just because of how good their mori animations were and didn't care much about the gameplay point of view.
Though I do definitely think hooks overall are likely healthier for the game itself.
i win when im satisfied at the end, whoever escapes probably ran me really good and taught me something about chases while at it, this way i get better, i stay happy and i overall enjoy the game way more.
yeah, that cocky yet cowardly nea who tried to juice you but failed only to disappear once on deathook and then leave their last teammate just to open gates and spam loud noise notofications on a nearby vault surely taught me something (besides the fact that shitty people are common)
Kills. Swfs will freely give up hooks for various reasons. There is no easy way to get kills against a good swf. Even camping and tunneling will be countered by a circus of carry perks.
yep, i find these hook versus kills argument very silly. as if competent survivors don't already do everything in their power to make hooking a huge time sink, and at points even a detriment with aggresive use of things like decisive strike, unbreakable or saboing.
For this to be realistic, then the whole game would have to change, down to every perk and timer. at the very least it would have to start as it's own separate game mode with rules from the ground up.
Raw hooks are definitely healthier for the game. But currently killer just doesn't have enough time to be a 12 hook or even 8 hooking andy before all the gens finish and 4 adrenalines pop.
What about a short base-kit Corrupt Intervention and survivors need to find parts, (auras become highlighted within X metres) to place on gens in order to actually be able to work on them? Would slow down early game a fair bit.
@@hewmanbeing it would. i don't think any killer would be against that, problem is, you'll have survivors crying. At the end of the day, no matter what some of them say on the ocassionaly positive redit thread, most want their gens done fast and without interruptions. simple as that. People like winning, and winning fast. And on dbd in particular, even a minute extra makes people be like "matches last forever"
You and i may find that rush boring, but it's the exception, not the rule.
Imo I don't think the rating system should be tied to sacrifices or kills, but by how the killer plays
The Entity Hungers: The killer got no sacrifices, slugged and tunneled, and only performed moris for kills. The Entity got no food, so of course it would be dissatisfied
Brutal Killer: You got at least 1 sacrifice, you hooked continuously, broke pallets, kicked generators and pressured survivors. Basically a "you did okay" grade
Ruthless: You got 2 or 3 sacrifices or kills, survivors were constantly put in the injured state, only 2 or 3 gens were lost, and you used your power effectively.
Merciless: The Perfect Score. Absolutely no one survived. Survivors barely got a chance to heal, you kept 4 or all generators safe, chases were quick and effective, powers were used creatively and properly. A grade for a killer that was a true horror monster
Your videos are really good, please create more of them!!
5:12 Those strategies are already common, at least in my experience. I try to play this game with my missus and well the killer has decided that they want to tunnel one of us out so we try to take hits for each other but the killer either finds a way round or slugs one of us to tunnel the other.
i mean....i take your word for it. But i'll say, just yesterday, i picked up huntress after a three year hiatus, was genuinly nervous because i had been facing nothing but swfs that day who switched build at 6 seconds in lobby.
So i went in ready to lose, and brought lightbringer just in case they switched too like the last two, i didn't have it in me to face that again already. BUT, what happened was that instead of flashlights, they were relying on boil over and sabo. I wanted to hook everyone twice and let their MVP go, that is my philosophy if i get to chose and it's not just a four man escape lol.
But instead, what happened was, i was carrying the jill, after hooking renato and kate once each. Well, the kate wasn't a great player, i was purposefuly ignoring her to not tunnel, but she insisted on getting in my way, and there it happened.....she saboed.....i had to drop the jill, kate stayed, pretending to do who knows what, she ate a hit and didn't use the haste to get away, i downed her, i didn't want her picking jill up, who was clearly my focus at that point. renato was around, instead of resetting away with the MIA Vittorio, he was 8 meters away from me acting as if hovering around two downed teammates with no plan helps anybody. of course, i can't know till after the match what their plan was if any.
I have no way of knowing who of them has a flashbang, unbreakable, for the people, etc etc etc, and they were asking to die, seriously, am i suppossed to play dumb and afk in place? they were literally coming to me even though i played dumb and pretended not to see them just to go for the zero hooks jill. wait 60 seconds for the scared vitorio to come pick each of them up before resuming? is that the level of "good sportsmanship" some people imagine as a good idea? against a team were two of them were cocky and teabagging and pallets and stuff?
Needless to say, that match ended EXTRA fast and it took me by surprise, it wasn't what i was looking for at all, i just looked for a way to hook them and moved on to the next least hooked teammate. afterwards, in chat i just said that i didn't mean for the match to end that way but that they only had that kate and her sabou play to blame lol, which is 100% true. Don't do that; mess it up, make hooking both a non option for the killer then have no strong plan when they naturally look to you, then go cry on reddit or something about killers slugging.
And on a different note, people will complain about tunneling when there's only two gens left. It's pathetic. Do you expect them to give you some candy too while opening the gates for you? why would they waste their time with people who are unhooked and uninjured and that are also not doing gens if they are there bodyblocking? In that scenario, your body blocking did exactly what it could, waste the killer's time and give you haste and your teammate some time, that's it, you don't know why the killer made their choice, and you shouldn't expect them to change it unless you give them a damn good reason. any competent killer knows that taking a hit is delaying the chase, you don't switch to them unless there's really a reason. "oh my, their teammate really wants to block that booty with theirs, well i guess i have no choice but to waste my time and follow them instead"
@@magical571 Listen I know there are situations like you described where the survivors bring it on themselves, I’m just referring to situations where the killer wants to tunnel 1 survivor out and will go heavily out of their way to do so.
I don’t blame killers tunnelling and slugging situationally, sometimes it’s necessary to turn the tide of the match and sometimes it’s because the survivors are making it too easy for the killer to do. I’m just talking about the situations where the killer wants 1 survivor dead as fast as possible for an easy 3V1 which is just as lame as the survivors all bringing gen rush and slamming the gens as fast as possible to get 3 or 4 out in under 5 minutes.
Cool vid!
I agree with rewarding players who play "nice" rather than punishing those who don't.
You mentioned that bhvr is stingy with bp and now that i think about it, maybe theyre relying on that grind to keep people playing? not solely of course but just as a factor
As long as gens are as fast as now, killers will always choose to tunnel one person out to snowball their advantage
I never really understood why this conversation is about hooks vs kills and not hook STAGES vs kills. This would at least address the concern you raise at 9:02 since a 4K is always twelve hook stages but it would make things like 8 stages 0 kills > 6 stages 2 kills which I think is far more likely to be accurate than simply counting kills. It's definitely something nuanced and I don't think it will ALWAYS be the case that more hook stages = better play but I certainly think that on average it will be a far more accurate measurement.
Id argue that if you aren’t intentionally trying to get 8 hooks, the person who got 6 hooks and 2 kills genuinely played better than you. Unintentionally 6,7, or 8 hooking without getting any kills shows a lack of game sense and target picking skills, and a lack of macro game understanding. Many people don’t seem to understand that there is more skill to killer than just “chase good”.
@@zergray6851 But saying that the 8-hook player's result shows a lack of "target picking" skills is only true if you use kills as the measurement for victory. Perhaps this player thinks stages are a better measurement of victory and thus went out of their way to target people they had not hooked toward the end of the match so they would get more stages when they died. This would still be an example of game sense/target picking as you've described it, but for a different win-condition, and we see this happen in actual competitive DBD matches.
The point of having this discussion in the first place is that a "win" in DBD should encourage players who want to win to play in ways that are fun for both sides. Players will try to win regardless of what winning actually means and I think considering kills as a primary metric for victory leads to some very NOT fun gameplay (e.g. camping and tunneling) when compared to hooks or stages. This is not to say that these are perfect metrics, but I do think they are better measurements while still being simple.
@@basicnerd1347 except the thing is, you are ultimately wrong. Even if you are going for a 12 hook game, eliminating a player is ALWAYS the best move, even if that isnt part of the win condition. Eliminating other players slows the game down, giving more time for more chases and hooks. An 8 hook 0 k could stupid easily turn into a 12 hook 4k just by having chosen your targets better, which is literally better by both metrics. In competitive matches, the reason they chose to not go for a kill is almost always because of endgame, where the 3 stages from a 0 hook survivor is worth more than the game slowdown they get from killing one person. If you want to bring up comp, with the fact they are scored largely off of hooks, why do they tunnel and camp so hard? Because its still the most efficient way to slow down the survivor team and earn more hooks. Camping and tunneling legitimately do just as good at securing hook stages as they do kills, because it will ALWAYS be better to have 3 people in the match over four, regardless of win condition.
@@zergray6851 I don't disagree for the record. Camping and tunneling will likely always be core to winning killer strategy, as this is more of a "design flaw" of the game so to speak. To make camping and tunneling bad strategies would be to fundamentally change the game to the point where it wouldn't even be DBD anymore. That said, I still stand by my belief that there are many situations in which hooks or stages encourages healthier gameplay than kills alone, and far fewer if any situations where kills encourages healthier gameplay the hooks or stages. I guess we'll never really know for sure as I think it's pretty unlikely BHVR ever makes an "official" win condition, and this is all hypothetical anyway.
Hey, just wanted to say:
That is not how the "performance" system works, it works on the "emblems" you get at the end of the match.
You have a couple of emblems: Iridescent, Gold, Silver and Bronze (you can also get NONE but that's only if you did absolutely nothing in the certain category)
Then we have 4 categories:
Gatekeeper
Devout
Malicious
Chaser
All of these contribute to a certain set of things you do as a killer (for example Devout is how many sacrifices you got and Chaser is how quickly you can end chases) but I won't get into detail, look up what they mean
If you get Iridescent quality on all 4 of them, that means you have a guaranteed Merciless Killer
Then the lower you go the lower your "rating" and the lower your "rating" is the lower your grade is (remember grades are Merciless Killer, Ruthless etc.)
That's basically a simplified explanation but there's a little more to it
But one thing:
If you take a long time to down in a chase, you don't get a lot of points towards Chaser
If you down quickly, you get a big boost towards that emblem
but, sometimes you can LOOSE points toward an emblem
For example, Malicious makes you loose points if you let survivors heal (very little points but it still downgrades you, keep in mind it is still possible to get an Iridescent quality even if you did loose some points)
That's all, I think that's how it works but it is based on my exp. and very little WIKI search, so go check yourself if you don't believe me/think I said something that isn't true
Have a great rest of the day
Fuck it, you seem like a really thoughtful person with cool shit to say and a sense of humor. Hope I'll see more of your vids now.
I played before challenges were even a thing and for me hooking everyone to last stage and letting all escape was a win, nowadays is way harder to do that so I usually consider 4 sacrifices as a win, hooking don't do much when you get rushed and don't have the time to hook everyone 3 times
Ngl I thought this was going to be a video about the advantages of getting a survivor into a 3rd hook vs Mori.
There needs to be a new type of currency tied to hooks, something that else to offers besides bloodpoint or better yet change how we earn iri shards based on hooks and teammates escapes
Fun fact, when I was new I thought a 3k aka a win meant you got 30k points not 3 kills and that Mentality was way more fun ;)
The algorithm sent me here, subscribed! great videos.
I think the solution is actually already in the game, as a perk. Grim embrace, or a weaker version of it, could be made basekit to allow people who like to split hooks to be rewarded for it. Maybe make it so if any survivor is death hook when the 4th survivor is hooked it won’t activate.
The thing about that though is if you want to encourage people to split hooks instead of tunneling for people who want the best advantage they can get, you need to make splitting hooks have a stronger effect on the game than what tunneling someone out does, or people are just going to tunnel regardless, because 3v1s are much more balanced in the killer's favor than a 4v1, no matter how good the survivors are
I don’t think the system only runs on kills
I have had games where I get 1 kill and entity hungers but most of the time when I get 1 kill it says brutal likely due to how well I played in other areas
In fact I’ve gotten merciless with 3 kills before so there definitely is more too it than just kills,
in fact I think it runs on the emblems, requiring 2 gold(or higher) and 2 iridescent
It's definitely based on kills currently, in the past it wasn't like that. The only way to get the Merciless Killer result in the current game is by getting 4 kills, it's impossible to get it otherwise, which has in turn made getting Adepts a bit harder since it relies entirely on how many kills you get.
@@Real_RUBB3R ok thanks for the answer to the descepincy
Though all of my recent games (besides one “the entity hungers”) haven’t given me a rank probably due to some glitch (which I think is funny enough to share)
I wish an asym game would decide to take the evolve approach of the 4v1 being the team of 4 actively fighting against the 1 instead of the 1 needing to hunt the 4 since the dbd way is much harder to distinguish a winner and their performance. Evolve it’s either the 4 kill the monster, or the Monster kills the 4 hunters. The only game that’s done this after evolve that I can recall is Predator Hunting Ground but that game seemed very barebones in comparison to the different roles evolve had
It is odd, whilst having the 7 year anniversary cake on, however even loosing matches although lots of distruction, hits, gen slow downs, and end uo getting 100k plus points per match it is odd having little point information
I only track wins by whether or not I can progress through my Tome challenges, not my kills/escapes.
The only problem I have with DbD is map balance. For some reason they can't balance maps at all. Either a map has too many pallets with horrible loop situations, making it bad for m1 killers. Or too little pallets with horrible loop situations, making it bad for survivors.
I play low tier killers, mostly freddy or clown, and so I find myself not really going too hard for wins, not camping or tunneling unless its end game collapse, and just going for tome challenges. I always like at least getting one kill for me is a win against a tough team, so getting more is just a bonus for me, as the game is just going to get Bloodpoints to feed the prestige grind and to have fun. I used to take the game really seriously, but now just play with friends for fun, or play and stream me playing killer in vc.
Survivors get it in their head that victory is all survivors making it out. And killers get stuck on not having fun unless they sweat the 4k. It’s like people forgot how to have fun in dead by daylight.
The trapper isn’t good for turbo sweating 4k’s. I simply find it funny when people run into my bear-traps. No, camping isn’t necessarily fair or an amazing skill. But i’d only be getting 1 or 2 kills if everyone stopped hook diving. 0 kills if people would hide.
These matches are trials. And my trial is to watch your step and mind yourself. But people insist the game is about running in circles for 20 minutes. The game is about surviving. And pallet loopers have skewed the focus of the game, but I’m 5 years too late
Hey I've been wondering how do you unhook from the second state? I've seen other players do it but I'm not sure how.
I haven't watched the video yet, but I think as the game stands right now, there's a few ways of going about this question. Do you want more points and do you want to get pips to increase your monthly grade? If so, then hooks are better. On the other hand, do you want an adept or do you simply just want to "win" the match with at least a 3k? Then kills are better.
Personally, I always try to go for more hooks, both because I want the extra points, and because I think it's a lot more fair and fun to split hooks evenly.
Perhaps the more underpowered/less toxic killers could keep kill number as their win condition while the more balanced killers would have the hook numbers as their win condition
A different alternative may be having a large number of hooks count as a "flawless win" for the killer while having many kills could be just a regular "win": I believe this system would push killers into more engaging playstyles while also not punishing begginners
I always find it hard to see what is a win or not. One my win counters is gste keeping. And forcing players to use the hatch but that is me.
It's been 7 years, we don't need to wait 7 more years to do necessary changes, Tru3 had a great idea of making a "suffering" meter or something similar, the more hooks and hits you get, the better score you get, that way you don't have to delete people out of the game in order to feel like you won, getting 6 hooks already means you could have killed 2 people and secure a 4k or 3k at the bare minimun, but you decided to chase different people and have fun and give all survivors the chance to have fun chases and interact with the killer, this change would also help solve the need for tunneling and camping to secure victories, you could just happily chase a brand new survivor every time and not have to worry about being 2 or 1 gens left and needing to find that one guy who's dead on hook to try and win
but tunneling would still be superior, since now there's only three people left, so, 1 down and only 2 left to do saboing and flashlights.instead of 1 down and three saviours.just saying. i actually tested how "nice" i could be while still getting to do something, anything at all, during the anniversary (since survivors were crying so much, and i didn't want to sttraight up afk and get zero myself), and people were very shitty to you the second you weren't putting pressure on them, and by pressure i mean, unless they thought you could delete one of them. In fact, the most reliable tactic to be able to play "nice", became playing very seriously until one person was down, then slowing down unless they already were at 1 gen left.
And surprisingly, doing that net me some nice matches for both sides. but see what i'm saying? only once the odds weren't all sunshine and rainbows for the survivors, only then were they open to stop tryhardying, or beg or accept mercy lol, or the bare minimum of not being asses lol. I had to bring in the ruleset myself and enforce it, because otherwise, if they had any chance to gen rush and leave at zero hooks, they would do it, let's not pretend like survivors care about the killer's experience or bloodpoints lol.
There isn't a scenario were deleting one player doesn't benefit the killer. You would have to re-estructure the core gameplay.
@@magical571 That's what i want, core gameplay changes, like what they are doing with hook respawns, it will stop survivors from abusing dead zones where hooks are gone to become unhookable, it was a miserable strategy to go against because you had to bleed them out or let someone pick them back up, they should experiment with better basekit gen regression/defense and a better hook system aswell, like if you hook a survivor they actually die right away but respawn after 40 seconds in a locker far away from you and all active survivors gain a repair speed debuff for the same duration, so you get rewarded for hooking someone no matter what, but you also can't proxy camp survivors or force trade or a second stage 2 minutes into the game.
such a beautiful video idk how behavior haven’t changed there game in ways like this if anything it’s doing better for the game who would complain i still love the game but idk anymore a lot of good petenal😞😞
They should probably reward both playstyles equally when it comes to rank tiers. That wouldn't be a very hard rework if they look at hooks somewhat how comp rules are layed out.
man what is the music in the background i know it but i forgot the name of it
Great channel waiting for the next vid already
I personally think getting 3 or more kills is a win. Simply because none or 1 survivor winning is better than 2 or more winning. I don't camp, but I do sometimes slug depending how close survivors are to the downed player. Sometimes I accidentally tunnel cause I can't tell the difference between survivors sometimes.
i half agree with you. more bps isnt the answer. there should be a max score you can achieve regardless what category you get them. make it so that you get more score the first few times you do task (dropping a chase, stunning, flashlights, etc...) and less score the longer you do the same thing. incentivizes balance play styles on both killer and survivor sides. multipliers at the end for survivors getting out or getting killed. survivor side, applies to all survivors. so even if you loop a killer until you die on hook, if your three allies get out, you still get the multiplier to your bps... just my .02
Is that re7 menu music in background?
You can get 4K and still brutal merciless is like a pat on the back
The game is designed and balanced around the assumption that killers should have a 50% kill rate, so I usually play with the idea that 2 kills equals a win and 1 kill is a half-win. Unfortunately that isn't supported either because tunneling/camping can get 2 kills easy but awards very little points (or fun), and 8 hooks with 0 kills counts as a massive loss according matchmaking (and the survivors' insults).
I generally think less than 2 hooks should be a lose against an individual Survivor, 2 hooks a tie, and more than 2 hooks a total win, and adjust MMR proportionately. Hook states from sitting on hook count as .51, so that way a first hook kill is still better than a tie, and counts as 2.02 hook states(1+.51+.51), so just a tiny win (to prevent camping from pumping ranks, and still encouraging chases). I don't think the game needs to shift around this, because the matchmaking lobbies would. You only get high MMR if you are able to consistently 9-12 hook, instead of 'cheese' kills. This also doesn't punish 8 hook games (2 on each), because everyone is tied. If the Clown or Pig can only get 6 hooks reliably, they will lower in MMR and go against equally weak opponents, until they are able to improve to the point of getting more hooks.
Personally when I play killer I just try to make my own fun, there’s no point sweating in every single god damn game. Even if I just get a challenge done or get close to finishing it I consider that a win
The entity rating USED to be based on thoes things, but people bitched about Adepts, so instead of changing adepts they changed the ratings.
I usually just play killer when the bonus switches to it and alot of the time. I just get 2 hooks on everyone then just run around injuring them and kicking gens to push out the time of the match. Which generally guarantees 30k with all the survivors escaping and getting alot of points too. Just 4 kills quickly isn't worth even playing the match. Lowest ive got with a 4 kill game was 9 grand. I'm for the hooks policy
I've been playing since Beta. I judge my success by weather or not I had fun, but when I play serious, I go by hooks, not kills.
But as one "Wise" man once said, "Was that really a skilled play?"
Another banger! Who expected this? (I did)
I'll tell you who wins in the end: The Entity.
Here's the way I view it - if you absolutely want to win the game and kill survivors, you can do so incredibly easily. Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Tombstone Myers - if you want to just get kills, you can do so incredibly simply.
im survivor main and idc if i die but i wanna play the match, when i get tunneld of the hook or face camped is lame but i also agree its annoying to get gen rushed while you had only 1 chase they need to slow down the game problem is even if they slow down gens most killers are already use to tunneling and camping so it would only make games easy for killers since they woun't stop using cheap tactics...
I'm sort of a killer main although I play both sides but a majority of the time I be playing killer but I 110% agree with this I find tunneling and camping to be kinda cheap I mean it's not even an efficient tactic/strategy anymore since they implemented the swivel hook and recently removed hook grabs I mean that's why a majority of killers that face camp play bubba cuz he's really the only killer viable to do so
When you put everyone on deathhook and then get tea bagged at the exit gate with a gg ez in the endgame chat, it's no wonder KILLers play for KILLS.
The opposite can be true. If a survivor carries their team and then dies in basement being slapped on the hook, they're equipping Sole Survivor and playing for their own escape.
The only thing that matter is if you jumpscared someone lol if yes success for horror
Behavior may be greedy, but I can definitely see something like this working out, even if with way smaller numbers.
Say 25% extra for 6 hooks, 50% for 9, and like 10% extra iri shards at 12 hooks. Would that 10% help? Not really, specially considering how hard it'd be to get, but it would activate peoples' monkey brains to play for hooks even if that reward is negligible.
Not really sure how these boosts could apply to survivors though other than doing altruism.
I think the two are so intertwined that choosing one or the other is just a bad idea. You get more kills if you get more hooks because you're pressuring multiple people and you get more hooks if you get more kills because eliminating a survivor from the trial makes it easier to pressure the remaining ones.
And I feel like there's a really big difference between "Strategically choosing your chases based of injury status and hook states" and "Tunnelling". Facecamping outside Endgame is just a dick move though.
If it wasn't for survivors attitude when 4 are alive I'd happily say hooks, but I've seem far to many toxic survivor groups at the eddgates to say hooks. (All though I do agree that designing perks that promote even hooking is the healthy way to go.)[I just wish you could promote non toxicity in survivors through perks in the same way.]
Great randomly recommended video! Now that I'm subscribed when are the roblox videos and makeup tutorials?
There is a problem with the hook system and its that it dosent make tunneling less viable. Imo as a killer main tunneling is by FAR the most powerful thing a killer can do in dbd since survivors only really have 1 or 2 perks to counter it and most arent used to it so it also catches them off guard, the point being if the games started to reward people for HOOKS and we will use your bp gain as an example killers will find that tunneling not only elimminates survivors FAST but also gives them extra bp for it. Throw on a couple gen slowdowns and you have a strong killer strategy that maximises your pb for it. Point is until tunneling isnt meta the game is better off sticking to kills since we dont want people getting tunneled every match
More kills = less survivors tbagging at the exit gate
Winning is having fun
The devs are right. You're supposed to escape. You didn't, so you lost. And killer, you're supposed to kill. 8 hooks and no kills means you played bad. 1 hook that wipes out a team in a bloodwarden is a win.
The problem is that you don't have time to get that many hooks in. The first gen done can be like your first hook.
I dont mind tunneling and camping, I dont mind playing for hooks. But 4 kills has definitely been ingrained in my head. I want 4k or to me I lost. I dont go out fo my way to tunnel, unless the map is horrible or the survivors are winning. But if the game didnt make you fell like you losts when 2 or more escaped when everyone is on deathhook. itd be so much easier to just not try
Hooks were better when BBQ was a thing.
People were actually content with getting 4 stacks as a victory condition and promoted less camping tunneling. I don't know who started being in charge but every decision in 1 month when it was nerfed was a stupid idea.
Honestly all I care about is points, both sides, points > "winning" I dive hooks to save people in endgame KNOWING I'll be the one dead on it and I don't care, I got a shitload of points and someone, or my whole team got out. Killer is similar, though I will secure kills occasionally to make life easier.
I agree.
Normally i switch to Sm or The knight just purely off "im sick of losing I'll just hold a game" even ir the games im losing are 8 hook games
If the match is too one sided towards killer, getting as many hooks as possible means you'll have to sort of play with your food, let them rescue and so on. Slugging for the 4k, as to not miss out on that last hook stage to secure x2 or x3 or x4. Sounds extremely boring.
I see the idea, but you could still tunnel one person out and try to get at least another 3 hooks. Maybe tunnel another person out, so you get at least 6 easily and somewhat consistently. Doesn't sound like it solves the issue.
It also feels as if the game was bribing players to play in a way that's less effective, but more fun for the other side. Players aren't stupid. I'd argue, with a change like this, player behaviour would be largely unaffected after a few months regarding tunneling and camping.
its like no one has seen horror movies of course 4 kills is the ultimate win
i play by idv rules 1-0k/escape lose 2k/escape draw 3-4k/escape win
3:19 - don’t worry, even if someone does, they’ll just take away their twitch shirt cosmetics.
DbD iS lIkE hOcKeY
10:53 - I would only ask that the multiplier be applied at 11 hooks, just so that it doesn’t punish those who want to give hatch to the last survivor 😂 but otherwise this seems like a simple, effective way to incentivize hooks. At least in theory; idk how important blood points are to veteran players. Me, I usually just play for 8 hooks and let them go, unless im really going for the 4k.
Personally I count my killer wins as all double hooked whilst playing clean (No tunneling/camping/4man slugging/ect) . Strive to be the non sweaty oasis in the hoard of sweaty killers.
It's simple, really. If there are survivors left that teabag in the exit gate and BM like crazed lunatics, then the killer did a bad job.
Kills is more important , i use a playstyle called "El metodo del balanceo" of the youtuber "megamaan", its extremly useful, the objetive is to kill the first survivor as fast as possible, and then, we have a 3 vs 1, and believe me, 3 vs 1 ITS FAAAAR EASIER THAN
1 vs 4 with 4 - 6 hooks, believe me guys, every match you will AT LEAST get 2 kills and 1 hook extra, my advice is bring a perk "hex: no one escapes death" so if you suffer gen rush as usual, you can hunt down the last one with noed, its a extremly basic resume of the metod but believe me, its far better than the regular play style, you can use it with every character and win with it, have luck and renember!, Do not follow fake rules made by survivors, camp and tunnel doesnt means You are bad, it means that you did a good job, and people are just crying
Here is a small band-aid fix that won’t be a bad band-aid fix. Buff the absolute FUCK out of grim embrace. I’m talking like hella buff. Ever since bbq lost it’s stacks there hasn’t been a perk nearly as popular that makes people want to split hooks.
No Way Out is a good choice for splitting hooks in exchange for stalling exit gates if the game goes that far. Buffing grim embrace like you said would also encourage not tunnelling, at least not until every survivor has been hooked once.
I have always focused on 12 hooks because camping is extremely boring and no matter what players say, you’re not having fun looking at the survivor die on first hook, you are sweating nervously praying for the 4K because whoever camps really thinks that they gonna die in real life if they don’t 4K. That being said, there is 0 incentive to get 12 hooks, there is no reward and the casual players would rather use noed, camp on first hook and end up getting 2 or more kills than dedicate their time to learn the killers power. The majority of campers clearly don’t know what they are doing but it doesn’t matter because perks can easily carry them. So the question becomes personal, does e matter if you 4K standing still? You got the same results as a experienced killer player
Why cant both co-exist? for example make 2 win conditions for killer 8+ hook actions or 3/4 kills, and make survivor ''mmr'' be for the entire team so an individual can loop the killer for 7 hours, die and still get the win cause 3 survivors scaped, if both sides played well, why cant they both get a win at the same time.
The problem is this: how do you win at school? No seriously, how do you win at school? When you're given a test one day and score 80% and then the following day you're given another test and you score 90%, did you win both times? What about when you get a 60%-65% score and just barely pass, is that a win?
The answer to this is that there is no concrete answer because where as win/fail is purely yes/no, school and DbD likewise work on a grading scale where how the student/player feels they've "won" isn't really fully dictated by the school/game. The truth is, it's different for everyone. Some people couldn't give a shit about school, as long as they pass and get it over with by meeting the bare minimum, that's a win for them. A high achieving student would look at that and say "Hey, that's not winning, you've gotta get at least 95% or higher in order to be winning!"
DbD cannot tell you whether you've won or lost in a way that acts consistent, it only tells you whether you passed or not and if you did, how well you did while passing. What that tells the player who wants to feel like they've 'won' however is completely subjective. I can play a match as killer and 12 hook babies with no challenge and get the highest score and bps possible, but that isn't a win to me, but man I sure did pass. I could run a meme/shit build and be put up against a sweat squad with broken items and an unfavorable map offering and get only 5 hooks no kills and say I did as good as I was able to and am happy with what I was able to achieve but the game will say I didn't pass. I can have a balanced and fun match where survivors know what they're doing on a fair map and I walk away with 8 or 9 hooks where I had a ton of fun with lots of chases against good players and would say I won, but the game would say I passed but just barely.
All this being said, I think there should be a feature in DbD where we go to our teacher, Mr. Otzdarva, and ask for extra credit on assignments and no more homework. I think this would fix everything honestly.
For survivors I would say escaping counts as a win. Think of it as a real life situation, sure you healed a lot and looped the killer for a while but your still dead, so how does any of that matter?
well it was sorta hook meta before they changed it to how many kills you got