Fatigue can also be caused by acoustics. In England many people have rugs on the floor, dampening the sound. In Norway we have hard floors, often made of wood, and also solid walls. Maybe the speakers sounds perfect in England, but in Norway with same speakers, you could not survive 2 hours at same level. Electronics is important, yes, but you will never get great sound in a room with bad acoustic. Room correction helps, but can not make miracles. Same with bad recordings, they can sound acceptable, but never great.
From my own personal experience during my time in the studio, I always found the compression horn drivers to distort in a way that was very fatiguing. When I went to work for a country music superstar in Nashville, the main monitors we had were a custom system with a custom crossover, an amp for each driver, and custom midrange drivers made by Morel. This was the absolute BEST system that I've ever heard... it could be turned up ALL THE WAY without fatiguing the listener... and without distorting. While I know that it's not the same as a high-fidelity home listening monitor, it was the most high-fidelity system I've yet to experience. My guess is that fatigue can come from both speakers AND from material that's mixed poorly, as in pop music mixed for radio play through the likes of NS-10s and their hyped high end... I NEVER liked NS-10, or material that was mixed through them. Great video, Paul... love these asides from you on a daily basis.
Yes the NS10's, if you can get a guitar sounding good on NS10's, you can get a guitar sounding good! Thanks for sharing that comment. Poorly used compression in a mix can also tire the ears out ten fold.
Yes, and I think he's named B&W previously, even though this time he didn't want to name names. My own listening experience as of 2018-19 was that - at an audio dealer showroom - I found the B&W 600 series towers surprisingly harsh and grainy. I'd read all the positive reviews of B&W and never saw this mentioned. It was immediately off my list of possibilities. Then I heard the Martin Logan Motion 40's, which were detailed yet grain-free in the highs, at about the same price. Maybe it's just my ears, but B&W would not have worked for me. I didn't realize it was a "British" thing, if it is. In fact I would have guessed that if there were a "house sound" for British and American speakers, the British would have been the "polite" ones and the American speaker tendency would have been shouty and a bit grating (I say as a mostly proud American).
This is a simple message, but a great one. I am heavily into mixing sounds and compositions right now for my company launch, and have to say that not only is trust important, but familiarity as well. I will switch back and forth from headphones Dt150's and my Tannoy Reveals. Not the best speakers, but I know them, even though I can't articulate what that knowing is, I am familiar with them in my room. As a mixer/ musician it is really hard to know what to mix for in this huge spectrum of media, but I must say these videos of Paul's raise the bar and point me to where excellence exists. Thank you Paul.
Apart from speaker fatigue, ear fatigue can have 1 or more causes. As Paul said, the 2 to 4KHz range is hardest on ears and unpleasant to listen to. In a tuned room, I prefer reference speakers, no coloration. I go for what I call a living room sound when applying EQ to the source.
I experienced listening fatigue or realized it two years ago when i replaced my speakers and Electronics. I purchased Magnaplainer LRS speakers and noticed that I could listen to music all day long and never had the need to turn it off like I did with my old speakers. Many decades ago I had a pair of Genesis I Powered by a tube Dynaco amp paired with a McIntosh C-20 Pre Amp and never had listening fatigue until i bought all new components and speakers. My thinking was I was so use to listening to tubes that solid state was the reason?! I guess wisdom does come with age and better equipment.
Paul was absolutely dead right here.... I couldn't have said it any better😊 A lot of so called hi end speakers do possess this mid/hi fatigue spot ! I have a pair of B&W 802 Diamond speakers and I decided to remove the passive crossover module bolted to the die cast base ( they use power resistors which require heat sinking ..) I plotted the transfer voltages into resistive loads individually and summing ... I was quite shocked there were two different orders for a start ! Secondly the impedance plot for the whole speaker did show a dip at the mid/hi region which would suck up more energy from the amplifier which I don't like ... it causes phase and group delay issues ... I reworked the crossover elements in the midrange section and applied a simple 2nd order roll off at a slightly higher frequency and that certainly fixed the fatigue problem ...
If you turn on a song, and something stands out, then that something will almost always become a source of annoyance, resulting in fatigue. I wrote "almost always", because if what stands out is "realism", then that will not become fatiguing. In fact, that will be a source of exhilaration. If you have to strain to focus on some aspect of a song, that effort will not initially be fatiguing. But like exercising, you slowly become fatigued. If you have to strain to focus on some aspect of a song, then something is wrong with either how the song was recorded (mixed and/or mastered) or your gear. If you have too many reflections in your room, then you will strain (and not likely realize that you are straining) in an effort to focus on the first time the notes hit your ears. The more your brain has to work to unravel the sound-field, then the faster you will become fatigued. When things just sound "right", then the fatigue factor will be a non-issue. When things just sound "right", then you want to keep listening. Lots of us have our "go to" songs that sound the best. We never get tired of listening to them, even though they are a small percentage of our music catalogs. But play only the lesser quality sounding songs, even melodies that you enjoy, and you lose interest. Keep it up, and fatigue sets in. Your brain wants to hear it sound right. Your brain knows when the sound is not quite right. Your brain works to compensate for what is not right, and that is fatiguing.
When I get aural fatigue, 90% of the time it's from too much low end. Specifically 20-50 hz. It needs to be used more sparingly than a lot of audio engineers think. Really though, any frequency can cause fatigue if the system isn't properly balanced.
I get fatigue when a source material is what I call too "bright." I find some of the direct digital recordings like this. I love the songs and the music but occasionally they will cause me to be irritated. My system is robust enough for me to know what is changing in the sound when a component is swapped in or out. In my system, most of the time it's the source material that causes the issue. Great topic.
I found it interesting in watching a particular reviewer that claims to be tops at reviewing the highest priced hardware. He raved about the Wilsons he was using as his main speakers/ reference until he was reviewing a possible replacement to them. Then suddenly he admits to the listener fatigue he has experienced with the Wilsons at high level. One of the things I show off with my Maggie based system is the utter lack of any shred of fatigue as I crank the volume up. I try to keep discussions down while introducing people to my system as I slowly increase the volume. Because it is so clean they do not realize how loud it is and when they try to talk they find out they have to almost yell to be heard but had not been experiencing any fatigue. The look on their face when it happens is priceless. The "WOW! It is really that loud?"
@@spandel100 A close friend has an inner ear condition (don't remember the name) that gets triggered by too loud of sounds. Takes up most of his room. Even in the car we keep levels down. But owns a pair of original Klipsh Cornwalls. They pretty much just sit there playing background music from a CD combo receiver.
Based on what Paul said, basically, set up the system with reference quality recordings and then with fatiguing sources, use a DSP equalizer (e.g. if using computer in foobar2000 or Adobe Audition) to tone down the 2.5k to 3.2k region for 3 to 6 dB. I have been doing that for over a decade. A fatiguing recording toned down from a CD rip this way can easily outperform its SACD counterpart.
I can answer this question for the gentleman,computer audio is why we are having this problem there unfortunately so many things that affect computer playback,for example current being delivered,over the air interference which changes all the time and the computer 💻 audio playback is disrupted that’s why when you listen late at nite audio sounds better,industry is mostly shut down,look into IFI company they have a solution for all problems computer audio playback,and I’m not paid to say that I have been using computer audio since it’s conception and there company is the one that gave me back great long listening sessions,good luck
Smilie face in the graphic eq will fix your issue, lol. Paul is 100% right. I find the issue is we are more sensitive in the upper mis range from 700hz to 5k. I believe this is where we identify speech and 90% of all sound interlegibility. If anything in this area is accentuated in the system by say 3db, it is as if our ears are working twice as much in this highly sensitive range. We are far more likely to enjoy music for longer with this area lowered compared to the rest of the frequency range.
Unless he is being very specific about which Limey manufacturers speaker he's having a pop at, I find it hard to understand why he's labelling British speakers as fatiguing when many of the brands are renown for their midrange tonality and the way they reproduce the human voice etc. He's being a little contradictory uf nit condescending in support of his own brand, wasn't so long ago he was saying British speakers were too soft or polite and the US loves big bass etc. Can't have it all ways can he? Big up your own product by all means but don't do yourself a disservice by slating the competition.
I think he's referring to the stigma of the two different sounds English and Americans generally go for as you mentioned. Americans want lots of base and strong low mid mutes upper mid and sissiling top end they call this " Very Smooth" sound. You'll hear Paul refer to this often when talking about FR30's. This American sound is favours pop music and high volumes. The British sound that is refered to is basically a flat response. What it should be. This is better for quieter listening and classical music sounds better on this type of flat response. The issue is that our ears are quite sensitive over the upper mid frequencies. The so if there are issues over this range such as harmonic distortion, the harsh recording, the or brittle formats such as aac or mp3 or even low quality dac's. Will cause fatigue earlier and at a lower volume than the American style sound where over the critical are Americans have already toned it down to mask any issues there are. One thing to note is no hifi or audiofile enthusiast will like the real sound of the instruments or band. You right though he shouldn't just slat a style of sound.
Never found that with my Focal floorstanders paired with a Naim XLS2 amplifier 👍 I guess you shouldn't partner speakers such as Focal with their inverted tweeter with overly bright amplifiers
China is just like any other place, where factories exist. You can get high quality goods made there... and you can get stuff that is ultra cheap, low quality, leeching toxic chemicals, and wont last more than a month of use. Typically, a big brand name company in the USA, will design the products, and give the required materials and tolerance specs to the factory in China. If the samples pass quality control inspections... then they will slap their companies brand name on it, and mass produce it.
I found that some of the cheaper Audio Technica cartridges give me listening fatigue, specially the AT95, as well as the same cartridge that came with the LINN Basik LV 10 arm...versus the Shure M97xE that you can listen for hours at a time without the slightest fatigue.
Рік тому+1
Hi Paul! You mentioned that fatigue could be caused by the music, the speakers, or the electronics. But not the room?
I have a good system but not probably good enough for it to be classed as an audiophile, but I listen to music not how it sounds, if I like a song it doesn't matter what I hear it on I will still like it, on the other hand, a top of the range system is not going to make me like a song I don't like, however good it sounds. Enjoy the music and if you're lucky enough to have a top-class system then good for you, but if you have a good system then still enjoy the music. Also we humans can't from memory recall how good a system sounds until we hear it again, everything is in the moment, and maybe that's why people with amazing systems are blown away time and time again.
Let's not forget external factors like age or work environment. As I've gotten older, I cannot listen as loud for as long anymore. And... if you work in a noisy environment all day, yours ears will accumulate hearing fatigue. The worst thing you can do is punish them further with loud music. I'm very lucky to work in a quiet office, with my own little mini stereo system that I play quietly!
Audio is subjective. People tastes and hearing differ. What you don't like, somebody else will love. Add to this room acoustics. Also people get tempted by flashy expensive gadjets. Personally, I love listening to classical music on FM radio playing softly using my vintage Luxman tuner and old vintage Sansui speakers and vintage Pioneer amp early in the morning in the bedroom. Magic.
there is something called EQUALIZER that lets you cut or tame that fatiguing 2 to 4 khz region. and clean a bit of the mud 250hz. oh yes equalizers are that great. i love mine. ooh dont tell that to audiophiles.
So, anyone care guess which British speakers Paul finds fatiguing? I have some Warfedales that I love the imaging on, and the high are super clear and detailed, but I do not like to crank them like the cheaper speakers I used to use.
If you have a priori knowledge that the electronics and the speakers are set up in a room to give you a good balanced sound, then you can concentrate on source signals, but I don’t think you could really specify that particular order without qualifying the other aspects of the system. 👨🏻
Amazing that Paul, of all people, forgot about power. You may know several aidiophiles that only listen to their systems at night, when the A/C has a lot less noise. This is a reality.
Seriously, I couldn't listen to them on an audioshow. Also most horn systems, the same issue. They just blare, and I don't care about sensitvity if it blows up my eardrums. Just awful.
I bought new speakers a couple of years ago and had to return because they hurt my ears so bad. Only speakers I've ever had that did and I've had dozens of pairs. Tried different amps and seating and nothing helped. Room correction didn't help. My ears would start to ache and after listening for a while would continue to ache for hours after turning them off. Didn't matter what the source was. Some frequency just was wrong for my ears.
My office setup went from good to terrible by swapping the source laptop. I currently work on one laptop and listen from another. I've had constant problems with this and am currently looking for a streamer to resolve my source problem. To clarify, the two laptops sound similar enough. But I can listen to one all day, and the other has my ears uncomfortable after a few songs.
Hello Paul, I'm guessing you connect your laptop via the jack connector? If you connect a DAC to your laptop via USB, and use a HQ audio player like Foobar2000 or JRiver, and use an ASIO driver the sound quality should improve significantly.
@@marckant3611 thanks for the comment. I'm using USB through a schiit modi or dragonfly cobalt. Connecting an external monitor does the most damage though. It's a locked computer so I can't tweak it that much, but considering how good my previous laptop sounded I was really surprised by the change. I considered a d2d/reclocker but since the cobalt can't overcome it I think it's too far gone.
@Douglas Blake That's done; well my work laptop doesn't have the option. The laptop sounds okay running alone, it's when I plug in an external monitor the quality suffers. This is the 5th computer I've used as a source, they all sound different. I also have ulterior motives for a streamer. Multi room integration and running it from computer or smartphone. I appreciate your support.
The range Paul alludes to is the "cry-baby zone" (circa 2.000 to 5.000 Hz), just outside of the range of grown up voices. The human voice of course has preference in our auditory system but what happens when we hear babies crying? That's right - we feel almost nauseated! So maybe the bump on those D4s is not a good thing?
@@thegrimyeaper I've heard him say that before too, maybe more than once. Another person has brought up Monitor Audio and perhaps they have a model that is, but I have the PL-300's now for over 10yrs and never get tired of listening to them every day, mostly nights for long periods of time. I do have tubes in the pre-amp.
The fatiguing effect of too much lower frequency treble with siblings being exaggerated is the worst for me. Especially 6-8kHz really annoys me when elevated. In some cases you can greatly improve it through some EQ tweaking if the effect is not too narrow-band and resonant. Better is to get some speakers with more linear response as such issue is a sign of poor audio engineering overall.
Paul, you rock. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I am the Joshua of question. The test I plan to do is to wait for the next time I experience listener fatigue and make note of the source material. Then change to my favorites playlist to see if it persists. I will additionally test using Qobuz in a direct mode to ensure that Windows isn’t causing any problems. The DAC is also a headphone amp, so switching to headphones with the same source might help identify if it is the amp or speakers. Humorously, the speakers are a British brand, just not B&W. For those that are curious, the gear in use is as follows: Speakers: Quad S2 Sub: Rel T/5x Amp: Sunfire 2CH (25 years old ~400watts/ch) (I'm a Bob Carver Fan) DAC: FiiO K5 Pro Source: Qobuz, Media Monkey for local files, UA-cam Play Music
@@geddylee501 Ribbon tweeters can also be Harsh, and they are often very "Directional". Meaning, you tend to need to sit exactly in a certain narrow "Sweet Spot", to get the best sound from them. Meanwhile, my old EPI 100v speakers have Inverted Tweeters (concave, like woofers)... and they put out Airy, Detailed, sounds... with a 3D soundstage to d1e for... almost anywhere in the room, wherever you choose to stand. Ive never had any listening fatigue from listening to them. The worst tweeters (and mids) that Ive heard, tend to be from HORN's. Horns distort the natural 3d image of the sound, and greatly flatten everything. Though, you are also correct, that Cheap dome tweeters, or any cheap / badly designed tweeters... will typically be far inferior to Ribbon tweeters.
Virtually all music made in the 90s, was compressed pretty badly in the studios (Eco-Radicals had taken over), and thus... on your CDs. The levels of compression got worse and worse, each progressive year after 1990... to the point where most new material is so compressed, distorted, and flat... that its both highly fatiguing, and sonically unbearable, for more than a few minutes of listening time. There are many things that can attribute: 1) Make sure Windows sound output is set to one of the Higher Quality settings. IE: 16 vs 24bit... And the HZ. 2) Montherboard Sound chips, can be of lower quality... and can produce poor output, and compression of their own. A higher quality Soundcard, tends to put out a much cleaner, and more accurate, sound. 3) The onboard sound chip, often has its own EQ, which can be turned on/off. Ive found that the EQ is not always very accurate, and if you make a few changes, then change it back... the sound is still not the same as the setting you started out with. Its quite quirky, likely due to chips power limitations. IE: If you crank up the bass... the mids and treble levels will be stripped of power, and reduce greatly.. to fuel the extra bass boost you ask of it. 4) Music / Video Player. Certain audio players you are using... might have a compressive "Volume Normalizing" setting on them, that got enabled. This can help to prevent loudness spikes between songs, adds, etc... but it comes at the cost of altering and compressing the dynamics of the Audio. 5) Source Files. Despite the fact that sources like ITunes acted like it was a high quality source for audio... they tend to have some of the WORST compressed audio, that Ive ever heard. Its interesting that their file sizes are quite large... which manages to fool tons of Lemmings into thinking that this means that they are higher quality files. When in fact, the filesize is just smoke and mirrors. They just scaled up previous compressed audio... and so, there is no extra details being heard. Its just doubled data, without added benefit of doubled musical detail. 6) Digital vs Analog. One time I decided to try a Fiber Optic cable, from my PCs optical output, to my Amp. I had to upgrade to a new soundcard, just to have the capability to do so. Upon firing it up, and testing it... it sounded like Thin, Tinny, Flat, Trash... compared to pure analog RCA cables. Now... my amp is quite an older model, so many things have improved a bit over the years.... but from what I researched about FiberOp audio connections... is that they are not as capable as what you would expect. 7) Bad Soundcard / Windows Drivers. Sometimes Windows updates with an Incorrect driver, which causes issues. Try rolling back the driver, or hand-updating the drivers from the MFGs website. 8) AMP settings. Its possible a setting on your AMP changed. Or something in your amp has started to fail / shift. 9) Shifting Crossovers. The crossovers in your very speakers, could have shifted in values. This usually only happens after like a few decades of time... but if bad components were used... it could happen much faster. There was a period in time, when a company messed up the formula for Capacitors and millions of devices were effected. My brand new motherboard was one of them... and it didnt survive a full year, before failing... due to these bad CAPS. If it is the speaker drivers themselves... you can try adding an EQ (hardware or software), to tone down the midrange and potentially slightly back off the highest treble levels. Another option, might be to place some additional foam suspended in front of the tweeter / midrange, to reduce its intensity, and mellow out its harshness. 10) UA-cam settings. Playing anything under a certain quality setting, will have far worse audio clarity. That said... There are many highly compressed UA-cam background songs, that are so irritating (even if you have chosen the highest playback quality), that I cant even bear to listen to them for more than 15 seconds, before muting them. 11) Overdriven Output. Sometimes, people are red-lining their audio output levels, from the PC. If your output volume is too high for the AMP.. it could cause distortion issues. Try reducing the PCs output volume levels, and cranking the AMPs volume levels higher, instead. 12) Potential Electrical and RF noise. Try using a better Surge Protector (not just a standard power strip), and do not plug in higher power or noisy equipment into it... such as personal "box-fans". 13) Room Reflection and Absorptions. If the Highs and Mids are very boosted / harsh... they might be a lot tamer in a room that has more cushy furniture, and carpeted flooring... compared to a bare floor, bare walls, and a wider open space. In many older speakers, they used to put treble and midrange adjustment dials on them... so that the user could adjust the sound to the room, and their personal liking. These dials can be expensive (if they are capable of sustained high power levels), and they often go bad over time... which is likely why they largely stopped using them). But overall... IMO, Listening Fatigue, tends to be a product of poor quality speaker design, and or highly Compressed music.
Listening fatigue mainly comes from listening to the same type of music and genre for lifelong periods. People are stuck in the same rudimentary rut for years. Listening to Nora Jones, Miles Davis, Beetles as the only people on Planet Earth in the music industry.
So incredibly Ignorant. Thats called Boredom, not Listening Fatigue. Ive listened to the same albums countless times, and still enjoyed them. However, on poor quality speakers, those same songs, sound so bad and harsh... that you choose to turn them off, quite quickly.
I'm not sure if i believe in 'speaker fatigue'. The way a speaker is tuned, IMO, is independent of how any one listener perceives it. Some people may find extra energy in the upper midrange, or any other frequency range, pleasant - or tiring. I think it's more about having a constant level of sound that - over time - can be tiring. For example, if you're listening to - say - a long and continuous selection of heavy metal, or boosted pop/rap music, or any kind of music that has a constant SPL, it can become tiring to listen to. It may be how our brains are processing it as well. A constant repetition of songs or sounds can become boring, predictable, uninteresting, etc, and sometimes we may need to change it up so our ears and brains can focus on something new. It's like watching the same episode of a TV show over and over - or eating the same food item week after week. I just think this phenomenon is more psychological than anything else. If you step away from your music for two months, for example, and then listen to it again, it'll probably sound wonderful and engaging - for awhile. 😊 I like to just call it 'listener burnout'.
Such BS making simple stuff more complicated than it is and no Paul, you can't walk into a room and tell someone within seconds what the particular problem with their system is if there is one. No human can do that. I'm so tired of the Trump effect in audio and other things! It takes some listening for a while and science based analysis and then you might come close at best. That said, fatigue comes in two basic flavors: biological and physics. It really boils down to listener preference. Yes, speakers that are tilted up in the upper mids to highs can be fatiguing in their natural state, but then there are folks who find that signature to their liking. (No Paul, it can be the tweeter range as well as the transitional range from mids to highs depending on crossover, etc.) So we really can't definitively say speaker A or speaker C are always fatiguing. They can be for someone personally, but the solution is to find a speaker perhaps with a different topology or something to try. I find certain speakers very fatiguing and others to be far more pleasurable. For example, I'm not a fan of horn speakers, ribbon tweeters or beryllium tweeters. I find those fatiguing within the first 60 seconds and can't stay in the room with them. I have found I tend to prefer traditional transmission line or open baffle to my ears and an almost neutral signature. Other folks prefer a V shape or J shape signature or something that could be called the warm side or the bright side of neutral, etc. It could also simply be the way ones system is set up or even just the room and a tweak here or there could solve the issue rather than slogging around trying to find new speakers. Fatigue can be biological: Our hearing changes as we age and we can find what was once pleasurable to our ears is now more grating. We become sensitive to certain frequencies. We can go from preferring horn speakers or V shaped or even ones with big bass or whatever to preferring something entirely different that doesn't bother us as much. More so biologically, it could be over saturation. Perhaps certain instruments that did not bother one before, now do because of certain frequency sensitivity. Another scenario is that "audiophiles" tend to have extremely limited tastes in music, they tend to play the same recordings over and over thousands of times unwilling to expand their horizons, this is a huge cause of fatigue. For example, I don't need to hear "Hotel California" for the rest of my life and I am not an Eagles fan and have no recordings of them, but I have heard enough at shows. I'm a fan of Jethro Tull, but I can go the rest of my life without hearing Aqualung. Genre doesn't matter. For instance, I can go the rest of my life without hearing Mahler or especially Chopin, please! I'm also very sensitive now to violin and can't listen to it by itself for even 10 seconds, it is painful and headache inducing. It used to not bother me at all and now it does. If it is 10 of them in an orchestral piece or something, I'm ok with it, but solo? Forget it, call an ambulance. To base your call of what is fatiguing globally on bias of preferred music is not fair. I'll counter with this absolute: The solve to fatigue is NEVER changing music style or artists preference to someone else's preferences! So fatigue is different for different folks and not always the gear. I have found in my decades of audio that it is usually not amps in their nature and NEVER cables. It is usually biological, the speakers with room or indeed the recording or media format as well. That is not to say a piece of electronics can't be the cause of fatigue. Perhaps it is the DAC on one's preamp or something or maybe a mismatch of speaker to amp in which case it usually falls on the speaker side. No PS Audio gear is not perfect or the answer to everyone. Any make can be if not correctly matched or set up! It doesn't matter of it is $100 or $1,000,000. I have found some brands to be not good for me at all and others to be more to my liking and personally, PS Audio is not one of them, I find it fatiguing, some others don't. There is no one size fits all in audio, yet there is this persistence from some to claim there is! We do hobbies for enjoyment and they are no longer enjoyable when confronted with people who claim there is a litany of litmus tests and rules one must adhere to, otherwise one is not allowed to enjoy! "Listen only to my preferred music". "Listen only to items off my list". "Listen only to recordings done by Octave Records or this house or that house". Only buy this gear or that gear". This stuff turns an innocent, healthy hobby into a cult and we are currently over-run with cults! We don't need anymore, thank you. Sometimes a simple tweak here or there will do the trick as opposed to rushing out and buying new gear. Other times might require new and different speakers for example, it all depends. So really it is not that complicated.
poorly desigend audio equipment ihave experienced this with some headphones also speakers also dac converter poorly designed als some pc motherboards are affected by this problem not proprly designed that is the cause not you ears
You are obviously used to overly compressed recordings that turn your brain into custard lol.I have heard some of their recordings and they are what music should sound like...no sharp edges.
Fatigue can also be caused by acoustics.
In England many people have rugs on the floor, dampening the sound.
In Norway we have hard floors, often made of wood, and also solid walls.
Maybe the speakers sounds perfect in England, but in Norway with same speakers, you could not survive 2 hours at same level.
Electronics is important, yes, but you will never get great sound in a room with bad acoustic.
Room correction helps, but can not make miracles.
Same with bad recordings, they can sound acceptable, but never great.
yep it can also be the room and a combination of all or variety of factors.
From my own personal experience during my time in the studio, I always found the compression horn drivers to distort in a way that was very fatiguing. When I went to work for a country music superstar in Nashville, the main monitors we had were a custom system with a custom crossover, an amp for each driver, and custom midrange drivers made by Morel. This was the absolute BEST system that I've ever heard... it could be turned up ALL THE WAY without fatiguing the listener... and without distorting. While I know that it's not the same as a high-fidelity home listening monitor, it was the most high-fidelity system I've yet to experience. My guess is that fatigue can come from both speakers AND from material that's mixed poorly, as in pop music mixed for radio play through the likes of NS-10s and their hyped high end... I NEVER liked NS-10, or material that was mixed through them.
Great video, Paul... love these asides from you on a daily basis.
Yes the NS10's, if you can get a guitar sounding good on NS10's, you can get a guitar sounding good! Thanks for sharing that comment. Poorly used compression in a mix can also tire the ears out ten fold.
Paul is referring to B&W 😊
I think Monitor audio has more emphasis on the midrange as well. some may not like that.
and kef and warfdale ... and all the other over bright tuned for the uk market speakers
@@geddylee501 And what about Ron from NRD that found the Klipsch RP600M sound fatigue
Focal is even more fatigueing…
Yes, and I think he's named B&W previously, even though this time he didn't want to name names. My own listening experience as of 2018-19 was that - at an audio dealer showroom - I found the B&W 600 series towers surprisingly harsh and grainy. I'd read all the positive reviews of B&W and never saw this mentioned. It was immediately off my list of possibilities.
Then I heard the Martin Logan Motion 40's, which were detailed yet grain-free in the highs, at about the same price. Maybe it's just my ears, but B&W would not have worked for me. I didn't realize it was a "British" thing, if it is. In fact I would have guessed that if there were a "house sound" for British and American speakers, the British would have been the "polite" ones and the American speaker tendency would have been shouty and a bit grating (I say as a mostly proud American).
This is a simple message, but a great one. I am heavily into mixing sounds and compositions right now for my company launch, and have to say that not only is trust important, but familiarity as well. I will switch back and forth from headphones Dt150's and my Tannoy Reveals. Not the best speakers, but I know them, even though I can't articulate what that knowing is, I am familiar with them in my room. As a mixer/ musician it is really hard to know what to mix for in this huge spectrum of media, but I must say these videos of Paul's raise the bar and point me to where excellence exists. Thank you Paul.
Very good explanation.
Yes my wife has a frustration on her upper part of her midrange. I avoid that area as much as possible. Sometimes the source is me or work😬
I think even paul would would appreciate this comment lol
Thanks Sir for the info
Apart from speaker fatigue, ear fatigue can have 1 or more causes. As Paul said, the 2 to 4KHz range is hardest on ears and unpleasant to listen to. In a tuned room, I prefer reference speakers, no coloration. I go for what I call a living room sound when applying EQ to the source.
I just bought a new pair of speakers and I love them. They don’t give me any fatigue, I just find myself wanting to turn it up
That 2-4kHz region is the ear's most sensitive . I believe it is also the range of a crying baby , not coincidentally . A survival adaptation .
I experienced listening fatigue or realized it two years ago when i replaced my speakers and Electronics. I purchased Magnaplainer LRS speakers and noticed that I could listen to music all day long and never had the need to turn it off like I did with my old speakers. Many decades ago I had a pair of Genesis I Powered by a tube Dynaco amp paired with a McIntosh C-20 Pre Amp and never had listening fatigue until i bought all new components and speakers. My thinking was I was so use to listening to tubes that solid state was the reason?! I guess wisdom does come with age and better equipment.
Planers are fantastic speakers. My choice is ESL, clearly with subs.
I recommend ATC speakers/monitors to check the real sound of your system before taking any further action. Coincidently, they are British.
I agree that it depends mostly on the electronics you use.
Paul was absolutely dead right here.... I couldn't have said it any better😊
A lot of so called hi end speakers do possess this mid/hi fatigue spot ! I have a pair of B&W 802 Diamond speakers and I decided to remove the passive crossover module bolted to the die cast base ( they use power resistors which require heat sinking ..) I plotted the transfer voltages into resistive loads individually and summing ... I was quite shocked there were two different orders for a start !
Secondly the impedance plot for the whole speaker did show a dip at the mid/hi region which would suck up more energy from the amplifier which I don't like ... it causes phase and group delay issues ... I reworked the crossover elements in the midrange section and applied a simple 2nd order roll off at a slightly higher frequency and that certainly fixed the fatigue problem ...
You should build your own speakers with that kind of knowledge, why settle for less
Drooling over that amplifier there
Paul nails it here. Look hard at the electronics. Amps and preamps that cause listening fatigue make listening less than enjoyable.
Except he never can resist a pop at the competition. I find that just a little fatiguing don't you? Just be confident in your own gear.
@@Gez492
Ya, to be expected he’d plug his own gear. I take his opinion about his gear with a grain of salt. 😜
If you turn on a song, and something stands out, then that something will almost always become a source of annoyance, resulting in fatigue.
I wrote "almost always", because if what stands out is "realism", then that will not become fatiguing. In fact, that will be a source of exhilaration.
If you have to strain to focus on some aspect of a song, that effort will not initially be fatiguing. But like exercising, you slowly become fatigued.
If you have to strain to focus on some aspect of a song, then something is wrong with either how the song was recorded (mixed and/or mastered) or your gear.
If you have too many reflections in your room, then you will strain (and not likely realize that you are straining) in an effort to focus on the first time the notes hit your ears.
The more your brain has to work to unravel the sound-field, then the faster you will become fatigued.
When things just sound "right", then the fatigue factor will be a non-issue.
When things just sound "right", then you want to keep listening.
Lots of us have our "go to" songs that sound the best.
We never get tired of listening to them, even though they are a small percentage of our music catalogs.
But play only the lesser quality sounding songs, even melodies that you enjoy, and you lose interest. Keep it up, and fatigue sets in.
Your brain wants to hear it sound right. Your brain knows when the sound is not quite right. Your brain works to compensate for what is not right, and that is fatiguing.
When I get aural fatigue, 90% of the time it's from too much low end. Specifically 20-50 hz. It needs to be used more sparingly than a lot of audio engineers think. Really though, any frequency can cause fatigue if the system isn't properly balanced.
Listener or speaker fatigue?
Hell Yeah !!! Like I'm tired of being stuck on the same groove !!! 🤣🤣🤣
I get fatigue when a source material is what I call too "bright." I find some of the direct digital recordings like this. I love the songs and the music but occasionally they will cause me to be irritated. My system is robust enough for me to know what is changing in the sound when a component is swapped in or out. In my system, most of the time it's the source material that causes the issue. Great topic.
I found it interesting in watching a particular reviewer that claims to be tops at reviewing the highest priced hardware. He raved about the Wilsons he was using as his main speakers/ reference until he was reviewing a possible replacement to them. Then suddenly he admits to the listener fatigue he has experienced with the Wilsons at high level.
One of the things I show off with my Maggie based system is the utter lack of any shred of fatigue as I crank the volume up. I try to keep discussions down while introducing people to my system as I slowly increase the volume. Because it is so clean they do not realize how loud it is and when they try to talk they find out they have to almost yell to be heard but had not been experiencing any fatigue. The look on their face when it happens is priceless. The "WOW! It is really that loud?"
I can only dream of a system like that...I have hyperacusis and tinnitus.I am still looking for a system that is not trying to kill me.
@@spandel100 A close friend has an inner ear condition (don't remember the name) that gets triggered by too loud of sounds. Takes up most of his room. Even in the car we keep levels down. But owns a pair of original Klipsh Cornwalls. They pretty much just sit there playing background music from a CD combo receiver.
Based on what Paul said, basically, set up the system with reference quality recordings and then with fatiguing sources, use a DSP equalizer (e.g. if using computer in foobar2000 or Adobe Audition) to tone down the 2.5k to 3.2k region for 3 to 6 dB. I have been doing that for over a decade. A fatiguing recording toned down from a CD rip this way can easily outperform its SACD counterpart.
I can answer this question for the gentleman,computer audio is why we are having this problem there unfortunately so many things that affect computer playback,for example current being delivered,over the air interference which changes all the time and the computer 💻 audio playback is disrupted that’s why when you listen late at nite audio sounds better,industry is mostly shut down,look into IFI company they have a solution for all problems computer audio playback,and I’m not paid to say that I have been using computer audio since it’s conception and there company is the one that gave me back great long listening sessions,good luck
Smilie face in the graphic eq will fix your issue, lol.
Paul is 100% right. I find the issue is we are more sensitive in the upper mis range from 700hz to 5k. I believe this is where we identify speech and 90% of all sound interlegibility. If anything in this area is accentuated in the system by say 3db, it is as if our ears are working twice as much in this highly sensitive range. We are far more likely to enjoy music for longer with this area lowered compared to the rest of the frequency range.
Unless he is being very specific about which Limey manufacturers speaker he's having a pop at, I find it hard to understand why he's labelling British speakers as fatiguing when many of the brands are renown for their midrange tonality and the way they reproduce the human voice etc. He's being a little contradictory uf nit condescending in support of his own brand, wasn't so long ago he was saying British speakers were too soft or polite and the US loves big bass etc. Can't have it all ways can he? Big up your own product by all means but don't do yourself a disservice by slating the competition.
I think he's referring to the stigma of the two different sounds English and Americans generally go for as you mentioned.
Americans want lots of base and strong low mid mutes upper mid and sissiling top end they call this " Very Smooth" sound. You'll hear Paul refer to this often when talking about FR30's. This American sound is favours pop music and high volumes. The British sound that is refered to is basically a flat response. What it should be.
This is better for quieter listening and classical music sounds better on this type of flat response.
The issue is that our ears are quite sensitive over the upper mid frequencies. The so if there are issues over this range such as harmonic distortion, the harsh recording, the or brittle formats such as aac or mp3 or even low quality dac's. Will cause fatigue earlier and at a lower volume than the American style sound where over the critical are Americans have already toned it down to mask any issues there are.
One thing to note is no hifi or audiofile enthusiast will like the real sound of the instruments or band.
You right though he shouldn't just slat a style of sound.
What about ribbon twitter in the nearfield configuration with 1st order crossover?
Nice explanation I like the middle to be aggressive 😊
So I send my ex-wife to you, for that you have more than enough agressiveness😂
While Paul seems to aim at B&W, I’ve found Focal speakers to be even more fatiguing (French based manufacturer).
Never found that with my Focal floorstanders paired with a Naim XLS2 amplifier 👍
I guess you shouldn't partner speakers such as Focal with their inverted tweeter with overly bright amplifiers
Chinese made speakers are NEVER fatiguing - Right Paul ?
That’s a low
Blow, his speakers are Chinese made 😮
China is just like any other place, where factories exist. You can get high quality goods made there... and you can get stuff that is ultra cheap, low quality, leeching toxic chemicals, and wont last more than a month of use.
Typically, a big brand name company in the USA, will design the products, and give the required materials and tolerance specs to the factory in China. If the samples pass quality control inspections... then they will slap their companies brand name on it, and mass produce it.
I found that some of the cheaper Audio Technica cartridges give me listening fatigue, specially the AT95, as well as the same cartridge that came with the LINN Basik LV 10 arm...versus the Shure M97xE that you can listen for hours at a time without the slightest fatigue.
Hi Paul!
You mentioned that fatigue could be caused by the music, the speakers, or the electronics.
But not the room?
I have a good system but not probably good enough for it to be classed as an audiophile, but I listen to music not how it sounds, if I like a song it doesn't matter what I hear it on I will still like it, on the other hand, a top of the range system is not going to make me like a song I don't like, however good it sounds. Enjoy the music and if you're lucky enough to have a top-class system then good for you, but if you have a good system then still enjoy the music.
Also we humans can't from memory recall how good a system sounds until we hear it again, everything is in the moment, and maybe that's why people with amazing systems are blown away time and time again.
Deferent speakers have various levels of fatigue. Neither my dynaudio or Magico have any fatigue…
I agree ,many speakers are too bright.
Let's not forget external factors like age or work environment. As I've gotten older, I cannot listen as loud for as long anymore. And... if you work in a noisy environment all day, yours ears will accumulate hearing fatigue. The worst thing you can do is punish them further with loud music. I'm very lucky to work in a quiet office, with my own little mini stereo system that I play quietly!
Audio is subjective. People tastes and hearing differ. What you don't like, somebody else will love. Add to this room acoustics. Also people get tempted by flashy expensive gadjets. Personally, I love listening to classical music on FM radio playing softly using my vintage Luxman tuner and old vintage Sansui speakers and vintage Pioneer amp early in the morning in the bedroom. Magic.
Playing softly is where the magic is,of course along with the vintage equipment..Music does not need to be blared for enjoyment.
@@spandel100 So spot on. Simplicity is the key to most things in life.
there is something called EQUALIZER that lets you cut or tame that fatiguing 2 to 4 khz region. and clean a bit of the mud 250hz.
oh yes equalizers are that great. i love mine. ooh dont tell that to audiophiles.
Can't have any of that nonsense, a £10,000 (1M) cable is what you need to tune it.
@@johnshaw359 haaaaha yeah
My polk lsim 707 are smooth!
So, anyone care guess which British speakers Paul finds fatiguing?
I have some Warfedales that I love the imaging on, and the high are super clear and detailed, but I do not like to crank them like the cheaper speakers I used to use.
If you watch some of he’s back catalogue he speaks of the brand B&W as having a bright top end 😀
If you have a priori knowledge that the electronics and the speakers are set up in a room to give you a good balanced sound, then you can concentrate on source signals, but I don’t think you could really specify that particular order without qualifying the other aspects of the system. 👨🏻
I get fatigue from trying to focus on my work while the music distracts me, nothing to do with the quality of the music
Amazing that Paul, of all people, forgot about power. You may know several aidiophiles that only listen to their systems at night, when the A/C has a lot less noise. This is a reality.
WoW - you’re so didactic - launch your own channel - sure everyone wants to hear you
Klipsch have got to be the most fatiguing brand I have ever heard.
Seriously, I couldn't listen to them on an audioshow. Also most horn systems, the same issue. They just blare, and I don't care about sensitvity if it blows up my eardrums. Just awful.
Witch ones have you listened to? Their lineup differs quite a bit.
They keep GR research in business, so at least that's something.
I bought new speakers a couple of years ago and had to return because they hurt my ears so bad. Only speakers I've ever had that did and I've had dozens of pairs. Tried different amps and seating and nothing helped. Room correction didn't help. My ears would start to ache and after listening for a while would continue to ache for hours after turning them off. Didn't matter what the source was. Some frequency just was wrong for my ears.
Ich entwickle Lautsprecher und dies ist eine Diziplin die zur Kunst des Lautsprecherbaus gehört. Meine Speaker sind ermüdungsfrei.
Its B&W. He's referring to B&W. Proud owner here btw :D
3:35 - me after Chipotle
The problem are ESS Sabre dacs period and also shitty "hi res" remasterings
My office setup went from good to terrible by swapping the source laptop. I currently work on one laptop and listen from another. I've had constant problems with this and am currently looking for a streamer to resolve my source problem.
To clarify, the two laptops sound similar enough. But I can listen to one all day, and the other has my ears uncomfortable after a few songs.
Hello Paul, I'm guessing you connect your laptop via the jack connector? If you connect a DAC to your laptop via USB, and use a HQ audio player like Foobar2000 or JRiver, and use an ASIO driver the sound quality should improve significantly.
@@marckant3611 thanks for the comment. I'm using USB through a schiit modi or dragonfly cobalt. Connecting an external monitor does the most damage though. It's a locked computer so I can't tweak it that much, but considering how good my previous laptop sounded I was really surprised by the change. I considered a d2d/reclocker but since the cobalt can't overcome it I think it's too far gone.
@Douglas Blake That's done; well my work laptop doesn't have the option. The laptop sounds okay running alone, it's when I plug in an external monitor the quality suffers. This is the 5th computer I've used as a source, they all sound different. I also have ulterior motives for a streamer. Multi room integration and running it from computer or smartphone.
I appreciate your support.
Those british speakers.... B&W for sure. Lmfao!!! It sure aint a damn Harbeth. 🤣🤣🤣
I had a pair of 804N’s. Was very happy when I could finally afford to replace them.
@@louisperlman8030 lmao!!!
The range Paul alludes to is the "cry-baby zone" (circa 2.000 to 5.000 Hz), just outside of the range of grown up voices. The human voice of course has preference in our auditory system but what happens when we hear babies crying? That's right - we feel almost nauseated! So maybe the bump on those D4s is not a good thing?
3k mark is fatiguing where you get your third harmonics and digital artefacts
B & W and Focal can do this, yes system matching and room treatment can help. Vandersteen and magnepan don’t do this.
I don't like B&W either 😆
Source material and vocals especially can be fatiguing.
You are talking about Monitor audio? B&W maybe 🤔
He's mentioned B&W specifically before, and how he doesn't like them.
@@thegrimyeaper I've heard him say that before too, maybe more than once. Another person has brought up Monitor Audio and perhaps they have a model that is, but I have the PL-300's now for over 10yrs and never get tired of listening to them every day, mostly nights for long periods of time. I do have tubes in the pre-amp.
What's the name of the British company then??
B&W
@@goodsound4756 Aaaah
Try not to listen to Motorhead so much 😁
or AC DC
The fatiguing effect of too much lower frequency treble with siblings being exaggerated is the worst for me. Especially 6-8kHz really annoys me when elevated. In some cases you can greatly improve it through some EQ tweaking if the effect is not too narrow-band and resonant. Better is to get some speakers with more linear response as such issue is a sign of poor audio engineering overall.
British speakers are amongst the best in the world
I am now fatigued after reading all the fatiguing comments.
Paul said he doesn't like B&W speakers without saying it.
He would be correct in saying that.These are known for very exaggerated treble.Not pleasant.
B&W hasn't been British for a long time.
Paul, you rock. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I am the Joshua of question.
The test I plan to do is to wait for the next time I experience listener fatigue and make note of the source material. Then change to my favorites playlist to see if it persists. I will additionally test using Qobuz in a direct mode to ensure that Windows isn’t causing any problems. The DAC is also a headphone amp, so switching to headphones with the same source might help identify if it is the amp or speakers.
Humorously, the speakers are a British brand, just not B&W. For those that are curious, the gear in use is as follows:
Speakers: Quad S2
Sub: Rel T/5x
Amp: Sunfire 2CH (25 years old ~400watts/ch) (I'm a Bob Carver Fan)
DAC: FiiO K5 Pro
Source: Qobuz, Media Monkey for local files, UA-cam Play Music
Tbh, you have ribbon tweeters which is a good thing, it would be a heck of a lot worse with say cheap dome types
@@geddylee501 Ribbon tweeters can also be Harsh, and they are often very "Directional". Meaning, you tend to need to sit exactly in a certain narrow "Sweet Spot", to get the best sound from them. Meanwhile, my old EPI 100v speakers have Inverted Tweeters (concave, like woofers)... and they put out Airy, Detailed, sounds... with a 3D soundstage to d1e for... almost anywhere in the room, wherever you choose to stand. Ive never had any listening fatigue from listening to them.
The worst tweeters (and mids) that Ive heard, tend to be from HORN's. Horns distort the natural 3d image of the sound, and greatly flatten everything.
Though, you are also correct, that Cheap dome tweeters, or any cheap / badly designed tweeters... will typically be far inferior to Ribbon tweeters.
Virtually all music made in the 90s, was compressed pretty badly in the studios (Eco-Radicals had taken over), and thus... on your CDs. The levels of compression got worse and worse, each progressive year after 1990... to the point where most new material is so compressed, distorted, and flat... that its both highly fatiguing, and sonically unbearable, for more than a few minutes of listening time.
There are many things that can attribute:
1) Make sure Windows sound output is set to one of the Higher Quality settings. IE: 16 vs 24bit... And the HZ.
2) Montherboard Sound chips, can be of lower quality... and can produce poor output, and compression of their own. A higher quality Soundcard, tends to put out a much cleaner, and more accurate, sound.
3) The onboard sound chip, often has its own EQ, which can be turned on/off. Ive found that the EQ is not always very accurate, and if you make a few changes, then change it back... the sound is still not the same as the setting you started out with. Its quite quirky, likely due to chips power limitations. IE: If you crank up the bass... the mids and treble levels will be stripped of power, and reduce greatly.. to fuel the extra bass boost you ask of it.
4) Music / Video Player. Certain audio players you are using... might have a compressive "Volume Normalizing" setting on them, that got enabled. This can help to prevent loudness spikes between songs, adds, etc... but it comes at the cost of altering and compressing the dynamics of the Audio.
5) Source Files. Despite the fact that sources like ITunes acted like it was a high quality source for audio... they tend to have some of the WORST compressed audio, that Ive ever heard. Its interesting that their file sizes are quite large... which manages to fool tons of Lemmings into thinking that this means that they are higher quality files. When in fact, the filesize is just smoke and mirrors. They just scaled up previous compressed audio... and so, there is no extra details being heard. Its just doubled data, without added benefit of doubled musical detail.
6) Digital vs Analog. One time I decided to try a Fiber Optic cable, from my PCs optical output, to my Amp. I had to upgrade to a new soundcard, just to have the capability to do so. Upon firing it up, and testing it... it sounded like Thin, Tinny, Flat, Trash... compared to pure analog RCA cables. Now... my amp is quite an older model, so many things have improved a bit over the years.... but from what I researched about FiberOp audio connections... is that they are not as capable as what you would expect.
7) Bad Soundcard / Windows Drivers. Sometimes Windows updates with an Incorrect driver, which causes issues. Try rolling back the driver, or hand-updating the drivers from the MFGs website.
8) AMP settings. Its possible a setting on your AMP changed. Or something in your amp has started to fail / shift.
9) Shifting Crossovers. The crossovers in your very speakers, could have shifted in values. This usually only happens after like a few decades of time... but if bad components were used... it could happen much faster. There was a period in time, when a company messed up the formula for Capacitors and millions of devices were effected. My brand new motherboard was one of them... and it didnt survive a full year, before failing... due to these bad CAPS.
If it is the speaker drivers themselves... you can try adding an EQ (hardware or software), to tone down the midrange and potentially slightly back off the highest treble levels. Another option, might be to place some additional foam suspended in front of the tweeter / midrange, to reduce its intensity, and mellow out its harshness.
10) UA-cam settings. Playing anything under a certain quality setting, will have far worse audio clarity.
That said... There are many highly compressed UA-cam background songs, that are so irritating (even if you have chosen the highest playback quality), that I cant even bear to listen to them for more than 15 seconds, before muting them.
11) Overdriven Output. Sometimes, people are red-lining their audio output levels, from the PC. If your output volume is too high for the AMP.. it could cause distortion issues. Try reducing the PCs output volume levels, and cranking the AMPs volume levels higher, instead.
12) Potential Electrical and RF noise. Try using a better Surge Protector (not just a standard power strip), and do not plug in higher power or noisy equipment into it... such as personal "box-fans".
13) Room Reflection and Absorptions. If the Highs and Mids are very boosted / harsh... they might be a lot tamer in a room that has more cushy furniture, and carpeted flooring... compared to a bare floor, bare walls, and a wider open space. In many older speakers, they used to put treble and midrange adjustment dials on them... so that the user could adjust the sound to the room, and their personal liking. These dials can be expensive (if they are capable of sustained high power levels), and they often go bad over time... which is likely why they largely stopped using them).
But overall... IMO, Listening Fatigue, tends to be a product of poor quality speaker design, and or highly Compressed music.
DSP
My theory? Boredom or - as Paul mentioned - the source material. Step away from the system for awhile to give your ears and mind a rest.
Wallet fatigue ( -.-)
Listening fatigue mainly comes from listening to the same type of music and genre for lifelong periods. People are stuck in the same rudimentary rut for years. Listening to Nora Jones, Miles Davis, Beetles as the only people on Planet Earth in the music industry.
So incredibly Ignorant. Thats called Boredom, not Listening Fatigue. Ive listened to the same albums countless times, and still enjoyed them. However, on poor quality speakers, those same songs, sound so bad and harsh... that you choose to turn them off, quite quickly.
@@johndough8115
Ding Ding.
We have a winner 🏆
An Audiophile that bought the right speakers to play the same Album’s over and over again. 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
Some recordings are fatiguing.
hes never gone to a concert or listen to music at a dance club over PA speakers? Thats fatigue
I'm not sure if i believe in 'speaker fatigue'. The way a speaker is tuned, IMO, is independent of how any one listener perceives it. Some people may find extra energy in the upper midrange, or any other frequency range, pleasant - or tiring. I think it's more about having a constant level of sound that - over time - can be tiring.
For example, if you're listening to - say - a long and continuous selection of heavy metal, or boosted pop/rap music, or any kind of music that has a constant SPL, it can become tiring to listen to. It may be how our brains are processing it as well. A constant repetition of songs or sounds can become boring, predictable, uninteresting, etc, and sometimes we may need to change it up so our ears and brains can focus on something new.
It's like watching the same episode of a TV show over and over - or eating the same food item week after week. I just think this phenomenon is more psychological than anything else. If you step away from your music for two months, for example, and then listen to it again, it'll probably sound wonderful and engaging - for awhile. 😊
I like to just call it 'listener burnout'.
Ill say it since you won't.... KEF !
Such BS making simple stuff more complicated than it is and no Paul, you can't walk into a room and tell someone within seconds what the particular problem with their system is if there is one. No human can do that. I'm so tired of the Trump effect in audio and other things! It takes some listening for a while and science based analysis and then you might come close at best.
That said, fatigue comes in two basic flavors: biological and physics. It really boils down to listener preference. Yes, speakers that are tilted up in the upper mids to highs can be fatiguing in their natural state, but then there are folks who find that signature to their liking. (No Paul, it can be the tweeter range as well as the transitional range from mids to highs depending on crossover, etc.) So we really can't definitively say speaker A or speaker C are always fatiguing. They can be for someone personally, but the solution is to find a speaker perhaps with a different topology or something to try. I find certain speakers very fatiguing and others to be far more pleasurable. For example, I'm not a fan of horn speakers, ribbon tweeters or beryllium tweeters. I find those fatiguing within the first 60 seconds and can't stay in the room with them. I have found I tend to prefer traditional transmission line or open baffle to my ears and an almost neutral signature. Other folks prefer a V shape or J shape signature or something that could be called the warm side or the bright side of neutral, etc.
It could also simply be the way ones system is set up or even just the room and a tweak here or there could solve the issue rather than slogging around trying to find new speakers.
Fatigue can be biological: Our hearing changes as we age and we can find what was once pleasurable to our ears is now more grating. We become sensitive to certain frequencies. We can go from preferring horn speakers or V shaped or even ones with big bass or whatever to preferring something entirely different that doesn't bother us as much. More so biologically, it could be over saturation. Perhaps certain instruments that did not bother one before, now do because of certain frequency sensitivity. Another scenario is that "audiophiles" tend to have extremely limited tastes in music, they tend to play the same recordings over and over thousands of times unwilling to expand their horizons, this is a huge cause of fatigue. For example, I don't need to hear "Hotel California" for the rest of my life and I am not an Eagles fan and have no recordings of them, but I have heard enough at shows. I'm a fan of Jethro Tull, but I can go the rest of my life without hearing Aqualung. Genre doesn't matter. For instance, I can go the rest of my life without hearing Mahler or especially Chopin, please! I'm also very sensitive now to violin and can't listen to it by itself for even 10 seconds, it is painful and headache inducing. It used to not bother me at all and now it does. If it is 10 of them in an orchestral piece or something, I'm ok with it, but solo? Forget it, call an ambulance. To base your call of what is fatiguing globally on bias of preferred music is not fair. I'll counter with this absolute: The solve to fatigue is NEVER changing music style or artists preference to someone else's preferences!
So fatigue is different for different folks and not always the gear. I have found in my decades of audio that it is usually not amps in their nature and NEVER cables. It is usually biological, the speakers with room or indeed the recording or media format as well. That is not to say a piece of electronics can't be the cause of fatigue. Perhaps it is the DAC on one's preamp or something or maybe a mismatch of speaker to amp in which case it usually falls on the speaker side. No PS Audio gear is not perfect or the answer to everyone. Any make can be if not correctly matched or set up! It doesn't matter of it is $100 or $1,000,000. I have found some brands to be not good for me at all and others to be more to my liking and personally, PS Audio is not one of them, I find it fatiguing, some others don't. There is no one size fits all in audio, yet there is this persistence from some to claim there is! We do hobbies for enjoyment and they are no longer enjoyable when confronted with people who claim there is a litany of litmus tests and rules one must adhere to, otherwise one is not allowed to enjoy! "Listen only to my preferred music". "Listen only to items off my list". "Listen only to recordings done by Octave Records or this house or that house". Only buy this gear or that gear". This stuff turns an innocent, healthy hobby into a cult and we are currently over-run with cults! We don't need anymore, thank you.
Sometimes a simple tweak here or there will do the trick as opposed to rushing out and buying new gear. Other times might require new and different speakers for example, it all depends.
So really it is not that complicated.
poorly desigend audio equipment ihave experienced this with some headphones also speakers also dac converter poorly designed als some pc motherboards are affected by this problem not proprly designed that is the cause not you ears
Daytime electricity make stereo sound terrible get some form of power conditioning
Your recordings may not be fatiguing, but they *are* anesthetizing!
You are obviously used to overly compressed recordings that turn your brain into custard lol.I have heard some of their recordings and they are what music should sound like...no sharp edges.
Too much highs cause fatigue..that's all
Great ! Don't buy British Speakers ! Buy Mine ! Made in China LOL
B&W. Too ugly to own TG.
I think the term is "listening fatigue" however. .... 🥸 . Great info!