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My apologies for the salt. I can admit when I'm just wrong. I'm just worried we're going to lose our best budget brands. Vosteed seems to use their best designs on more expensive knives and It's disappointing to me.
I remember when the Axis lock patent expired and every knife maker started putting crossbar locks on their knives. Getting a $20.00 Ganzo with a crossbar lock is what got me back into knife collecting.
Love this thing. Thinner than the RSKaos, but same great locking system. The kaos is still my preferred to this - deployment and blade shape. But a thinner one would be great - kaos is sorta thick in the pocket.
While i will probably end up with one of these. I really look forward to a high quality 'budget version with g10 etc.as well as a premium version in Carbon fiber. Vosteed is definitly a force to be reckoned with. 🎉
This one is definitely on my list. My next knife was going to get a para 3 in spy27 (1st spyderco) but man they are basically the same price and that blacked out, milled model may need to spend some time in my pocket.
buy the military 2 in cruwear and micarta. if that’s too big just get the para 3 cruwear or magnacut trust me. you’ll probably be exponentially more happy with the performance and actually using those two than this
Lol too late. Right after posting that I picked up the g10 spy27 para 3. Ordered the AWT scales and lynch clip already too. I wanted the "Spyderco-y-ist" spyderco I could get. Knew they made a magnacut pm2 but didn't realize they had a pm3 in that steel as well. Oh well, I've got plenty of other magnacut blades. When I pick up the pm2 it'll be in that steel for sure.
Vosteed: maker of the largest number of really cool designs that I'll never be able to own because they continue to despise left handed people... Would buy this in a heartbeat if I could.
Its nice that you continue to tell these companies to up their ht. But as long as they sell out they probably won't care that much. Also people who care about a quality ht aren't buying these types of knives anyways.
My apologies for the salt. I can admit when I'm just wrong. I'm just worried we're going to lose our best budget brands. Vosteed seems to use their best designs on more expensive knives and It's disappointing to me. Apparently i woke up and chose Violence 😂
Yes it does but that's a generic data reference and doesn't necessarily apply to quality knives. They are steel makers and mostly for large manufacturing and tooling. Well ht'd elmax at 61-62 rc is a more ideal range for a folding knife. I don't care what vosteed does because I don't buy these types of knives, but I own great knives from makers that care about ht and the ones I own in elmax are all around 62-63 rc.
@chriswebb3018 How is the data generic? It's literally a range of obtainable hardness values over different temperature ranges for both soaking and tempering. That's independent of the purpose of the steel. What is more likely is that Vosteed either doesn't do the liquid nitrogen quenching, which would add 1-2 points to the hardness, or they are giving the range for both coated and uncoated blades. Uncoated blades are probably 61 +/- 1 HRc, and coated are closer to 59 +/- 1 HRc.
@@frk1980the data is generic because the hardness uddenholm lists for elmax is for general purpose usages in the industrial settings the steel was meant for. you want steels to be at a different hardness for knives than you do for something in industrial food prep or the plastics industry dude.
@@frk1980the hardness listed by uddenholm is a recommended hardness, 58-60 is NOT the maximum usable obtainable hardness of the steel, especially not when talking about the knife industry where there’s techniques used to increase hardness that aren’t used for industrial steel heat treating.
@acid6urns You're entitled to your opinion on how heat treatment data works. The actual data shown in the heat treatment guidelines does not support your statement.
First, I love the Psyop. Did you mention that it's a Tuff Knives design? Second, you keep saying that changes in hrc have an "exponential" effect on wear resistance, when Larrin's graphs seem to indicate something closer to a linear response. Let's look at Magnacut, for example. At 61 hrc, his CATRA result was about 505 cards cut. At 65 hrc it was 570. So what we're actually talking about here is a difference of about 3% per point on the Rockwell scale. So is Magnacut at 60 hrc trash, while it's fine at 62 hrc, when the difference in edge retention is just a hair over 5%? Now factor in that toughness and corrosion resistance are generally better at the lower hrc.... I'm as guilty of being an hrc ho as anyone, but the truth is that we probably emphasize it way too much. Also, different steels have different responses to higher hrc, so it's hard to generalize. In other words, higher hardness improves edge retention more for some steels than others. Anyway, these are my unasked-for thoughts. 🙂
@@metal_complex I found a HRc calculator online that will calculate the effect between two HRc values. From high 50's to mid 60's, the effect seems to be around 5% for each unit change (ex. 61 vs 60).
It's fair to take data from knife steel nerds but there is more to it than how many cards cut. For example a harder blade offers more strength, and in a folding knife edge retention and edge strength is way more important than toughness. If you need more toughness then you need a fixed blade. There is always more to it.
@@chriswebb3018 It is complicated, no doubt. Higher hardness supports lower edge angles, which contribute more to edge retention than carbides. But ... if you have high hardness and insufficient toughness, those low edge angles will result in chipping. And so on.
@@chriswebb3018edge retention is absolutely not more important than toughness. high hardness and high toughness can outperform high wear resistance any day of the week. something like high hardness magnacut or say 4v and cruwear, with high hardness and high toughness, can handle VERY thin edge angles and this compensates for lack of wear resistance. i can promise you that 4v/cruwear with a 12 DPS edge angle will out cut any high wear resistance steel you can think of with a 18-20 dps edge.
Its NOT compression lock..its my Puzzlelock which is still patented with a Utility Patent. Please check with me and I'll gladly show you what a compression lock is and what a Puzzlelock is. A compression lock.the tang arm or a ball or object sits on a shelf and compresses against the stop pin preventing the blade from moving. What you've drawn is a Puzzlelock where there an interconnected piece that inserts into the blade like a puzzle piece or dovetail joint.
Vosteed website says blade coating is "stonewash". Do you really think it's DLC? Site also says the handle has a "grey PVD" coating but I'll accept the black handles are black PVD, not sure about the blade. The lack of proof reading on the handle description makes me not trust the blade description 100% but if it was DLC wouldn't they be shouting that to the rafters? I'd love a black DLC coated blade, not interested in another stonewashed one.
Truer words rarely spoken! They lost patent rights and didn't use it enough. It's like they paid development costs for SPY27 and passed those costs onto us and took years to phase it in! Looks like playing games as is their usual M.O.
That would be hott! There must be a reason it's not already widespread. Maybe people don't buy integrals in high enough amounts. Or most integrals aren't also production knives?
IMO, Vosteed has big balls asking the money they do....never struck me as a maker of "$300 dollar knives" and never will. They will always be the company who couldn't make a safe button lock.
What were you attempting to draw? A cyborg worm eating a Snickers? And it's a shame that the liner lock can't be accessed the normal way as well as with the button. I'd buy the Psyop if it did that.
@frk1980 I have an Elmax at 61-62 that performs great. Could be it's still decent at 58, IDK, but a 5 point differential is too much for me. I don't know what I'm getting. Thanks for the data though!
This is a very nice looking knife. I would love to own it. It is not, however, a $330 CAD knife. Not when a ti/cf S90V perfect Pyrite is $100 CAD cheaper, or a WE 704CFA is only $30 CAD more (both are far nicer). Or if I really want a workhorse, a Kershaw Bel Air with CPM Magnacut is $60 CAD less. If this was 61-62 HRC... I'd buy it hands down. But gambling on maybe getting a 58? Not at that price. At $150 USD, maybe. At $250 and above, I expect a higher standard.
My Amazon page! The gear I use here on the channel! - www.amazon.com/shop/metalcomplex
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My apologies for the salt. I can admit when I'm just wrong. I'm just worried we're going to lose our best budget brands. Vosteed seems to use their best designs on more expensive knives and It's disappointing to me.
@@joshalmightybladesthey won't stop making good budget stuff 👍
@@metal_complex Rick hinderer has some non-flipper xm-18s on his sight with the Bowie blade in s45vn.
I remember when the Axis lock patent expired and every knife maker started putting crossbar locks on their knives. Getting a $20.00 Ganzo with a crossbar lock is what got me back into knife collecting.
Ganzo Crossbar lock are good and their Omega Spring are thick ...
Bruh that was like last year
@@alanpillow6679
Actually, it was a few years ago.
Actually the mini Pysop with micarta handle comes out next month
I love a premium version and I’m glad a budget version is coming. Cool.
That illustration… *chef’s kiss* 🤌
FYI… Just bought one of these and the Vosteed website now has the hardness listed at 60+/-1.
Love the knife and your vids.
You can laugh all you want at the "I drew a picture", but it was actually a helpful visualization.
Hello MC. Thanks for the content. More Knife Guy episodes please. Love the rambles.
Love this thing. Thinner than the RSKaos, but same great locking system. The kaos is still my preferred to this - deployment and blade shape. But a thinner one would be great - kaos is sorta thick in the pocket.
While i will probably end up with one of these. I really look forward to a high quality 'budget version with g10 etc.as well as a premium version in Carbon fiber. Vosteed is definitly a force to be reckoned with. 🎉
This one is definitely on my list. My next knife was going to get a para 3 in spy27 (1st spyderco) but man they are basically the same price and that blacked out, milled model may need to spend some time in my pocket.
buy the military 2 in cruwear and micarta. if that’s too big just get the para 3 cruwear or magnacut trust me. you’ll probably be exponentially more happy with the performance and actually using those two than this
Lol too late. Right after posting that I picked up the g10 spy27 para 3. Ordered the AWT scales and lynch clip already too. I wanted the "Spyderco-y-ist" spyderco I could get. Knew they made a magnacut pm2 but didn't realize they had a pm3 in that steel as well. Oh well, I've got plenty of other magnacut blades. When I pick up the pm2 it'll be in that steel for sure.
Great looking knife.
Appreciate the thoughts and look around MC.
Came back to say that, while I love Vosteed… that heat treat range is living rent free in my mind.
Rent.
Free.
Vosteed: maker of the largest number of really cool designs that I'll never be able to own because they continue to despise left handed people... Would buy this in a heartbeat if I could.
you can literally press the button with your index finger my guy. just like a button lock
@@acid6urns the lack of a left hand pocket clip is the deal breaker, not the backwards button lock. Most of Vosteed's models aren't ambi carry
Its nice that you continue to tell these companies to up their ht. But as long as they sell out they probably won't care that much. Also people who care about a quality ht aren't buying these types of knives anyways.
I wish they made and maybe they do, a ratcoon with rear button like this with a true warncliff blade
My apologies for the salt. I can admit when I'm just wrong. I'm just worried we're going to lose our best budget brands. Vosteed seems to use their best designs on more expensive knives and It's disappointing to me. Apparently i woke up and chose Violence 😂
I need a budget psyop with this lock
Uddeholm's Elmax data shows 58-60 HRc after tempering.
Yes it does but that's a generic data reference and doesn't necessarily apply to quality knives. They are steel makers and mostly for large manufacturing and tooling. Well ht'd elmax at 61-62 rc is a more ideal range for a folding knife. I don't care what vosteed does because I don't buy these types of knives, but I own great knives from makers that care about ht and the ones I own in elmax are all around 62-63 rc.
@chriswebb3018 How is the data generic? It's literally a range of obtainable hardness values over different temperature ranges for both soaking and tempering. That's independent of the purpose of the steel. What is more likely is that Vosteed either doesn't do the liquid nitrogen quenching, which would add 1-2 points to the hardness, or they are giving the range for both coated and uncoated blades. Uncoated blades are probably 61 +/- 1 HRc, and coated are closer to 59 +/- 1 HRc.
@@frk1980the data is generic because the hardness uddenholm lists for elmax is for general purpose usages in the industrial settings the steel was meant for. you want steels to be at a different hardness for knives than you do for something in industrial food prep or the plastics industry dude.
@@frk1980the hardness listed by uddenholm is a recommended hardness, 58-60 is NOT the maximum usable obtainable hardness of the steel, especially not when talking about the knife industry where there’s techniques used to increase hardness that aren’t used for industrial steel heat treating.
@acid6urns You're entitled to your opinion on how heat treatment data works. The actual data shown in the heat treatment guidelines does not support your statement.
First, I love the Psyop. Did you mention that it's a Tuff Knives design?
Second, you keep saying that changes in hrc have an "exponential" effect on wear resistance, when Larrin's graphs seem to indicate something closer to a linear response. Let's look at Magnacut, for example. At 61 hrc, his CATRA result was about 505 cards cut. At 65 hrc it was 570. So what we're actually talking about here is a difference of about 3% per point on the Rockwell scale. So is Magnacut at 60 hrc trash, while it's fine at 62 hrc, when the difference in edge retention is just a hair over 5%? Now factor in that toughness and corrosion resistance are generally better at the lower hrc....
I'm as guilty of being an hrc ho as anyone, but the truth is that we probably emphasize it way too much. Also, different steels have different responses to higher hrc, so it's hard to generalize. In other words, higher hardness improves edge retention more for some steels than others.
Anyway, these are my unasked-for thoughts. 🙂
Exponential is definitely the wrong word. You're correct
@@metal_complex I found a HRc calculator online that will calculate the effect between two HRc values. From high 50's to mid 60's, the effect seems to be around 5% for each unit change (ex. 61 vs 60).
It's fair to take data from knife steel nerds but there is more to it than how many cards cut. For example a harder blade offers more strength, and in a folding knife edge retention and edge strength is way more important than toughness. If you need more toughness then you need a fixed blade. There is always more to it.
@@chriswebb3018 It is complicated, no doubt. Higher hardness supports lower edge angles, which contribute more to edge retention than carbides. But ... if you have high hardness and insufficient toughness, those low edge angles will result in chipping. And so on.
@@chriswebb3018edge retention is absolutely not more important than toughness. high hardness and high toughness can outperform high wear resistance any day of the week. something like high hardness magnacut or say 4v and cruwear, with high hardness and high toughness, can handle VERY thin edge angles and this compensates for lack of wear resistance. i can promise you that 4v/cruwear with a 12 DPS edge angle will out cut any high wear resistance steel you can think of with a 18-20 dps edge.
Thanks MC
I think I've seen that illustration in a urologist's office.
I have abenchmade nak loc that’s literally the same thing. I’ve had it for over a decade
The blade to handle ratio reminds me of the Spyderco Para 3, of which I am not a fan of.
Its NOT compression lock..its my Puzzlelock which is still patented with a Utility Patent. Please check with me and I'll gladly show you what a compression lock is and what a Puzzlelock is. A compression lock.the tang arm or a ball or object sits on a shelf and compresses against the stop pin preventing the blade from moving. What you've drawn is a Puzzlelock where there an interconnected piece that inserts into the blade like a puzzle piece or dovetail joint.
I missed the gray versions, anyone know if Vosteed has a habit of restocking these or no?
Really like this knife. PLEASE, Vosteed, do it in a Wharncliffe version!
I'm 50 years old and giggled like crazy at gloved hole. Either you are not a child or I am.
I want carbon fiber scales for sure.
Vosteed website says blade coating is "stonewash". Do you really think it's DLC? Site also says the handle has a "grey PVD" coating but I'll accept the black handles are black PVD, not sure about the blade. The lack of proof reading on the handle description makes me not trust the blade description 100% but if it was DLC wouldn't they be shouting that to the rafters? I'd love a black DLC coated blade, not interested in another stonewashed one.
I dig it
Spyderco really dropped the ball having the Smock as their only button compression lock.
Truer words rarely spoken! They lost patent rights and didn't use it enough. It's like they paid development costs for SPY27 and passed those costs onto us and took years to phase it in! Looks like playing games as is their usual M.O.
Where did that go on your chart?
They should use this lock in a integral handle
That would be hott! There must be a reason it's not already widespread. Maybe people don't buy integrals in high enough amounts. Or most integrals aren't also production knives?
basically a housed CME setup
What would make me consider the price is I'd go ABSOLUTELY GA GA over a four inch blade. Very very nice though.
Put a little ptfe powder on the button from behind the scales and that little hiccup goes away
IMO, Vosteed has big balls asking the money they do....never struck me as a maker of "$300 dollar knives" and never will. They will always be the company who couldn't make a safe button lock.
What were you attempting to draw? A cyborg worm eating a Snickers? And it's a shame that the liner lock can't be accessed the normal way as well as with the button. I'd buy the Psyop if it did that.
Oh! A built in redundancy. More choices and more fidgety. Interesting thinking!
Looks little heavy for size of blade
Drawing was poopoo town, but the explanation was legend.
Heat treat on Elmax is 58-62. 5pts? No thanks.
58-60 is what is shown in Uddeholm's heat treat datasheet.
@frk1980 I have an Elmax at 61-62 that performs great. Could be it's still decent at 58, IDK, but a 5 point differential is too much for me. I don't know what I'm getting. Thanks for the data though!
This is a very nice looking knife. I would love to own it.
It is not, however, a $330 CAD knife.
Not when a ti/cf S90V perfect Pyrite is $100 CAD cheaper, or a WE 704CFA is only $30 CAD more (both are far nicer).
Or if I really want a workhorse, a Kershaw Bel Air with CPM Magnacut is $60 CAD less.
If this was 61-62 HRC... I'd buy it hands down. But gambling on maybe getting a 58? Not at that price.
At $150 USD, maybe. At $250 and above, I expect a higher standard.
This knifes appeal is really hurt by that HRC range. Vosteed, you need to do better.
Damn ya scratched the handle. But good to know
Kunwu?
I'm always after that hole with my gloved finger.
if you break that lock, you're using the wrong knife for the job.
I love knife and firearm channels. They put all these warnings and disclaimers up just to kiss UA-cams ass. Trust me, no liberals are worth a damn.
You absolutely need to stop reviewing knives and start being an artist ASAP. You're missing out on millions!!! 🤣