…it is joists, not joisteses. Where do you get this horrible mispronunciation? Also, your issue is just settlement. It can be easily solved with a rudimentary steel angle iron brace. I question your intelligence. Also, why don’t you allow the lady to speak?
You don't comprehend humor and sarcasm, do you? Might I suggest that you watch all of their videos concerning the RESTORATION of Ms. Mooreland. There are four years worth of humorous mispronunciations that will aide you in your rudimentary knowledge of this channel. P.S. Angle Iron wasn't available or used in the 1880's when constructing houses of this size and grandeur. Add that little tidbit to your lack of intelligence when posting such a nasty comment. P.P.S. Terri does speak. You just weren't listening.
I’m not an architect! but I have renovated several houses! You need a footer in the basement for the post to sit on! Going all the way up to the attic! To support the stairs! I would check out securing the stairs to the brick wall also! So it’s not just freestanding along side the wall!
We will figure out how it was designed and try to make it better. That might result in support from the basement. It would certainly be the easiest way to do it.
Good morning! The little inset of the floor plan showing us where you’re working is so helpful, so thank you for that. Figuring out this house without drawings seems a little like putting together a jigsaw puzzle without the aid of the picture on the box. Would love for those plans to be discovered by someone cleaning out an attic someday. Till then, I’m here for the investigating!
We agree. We had every intention of trying to figure out some software to draw out the existing framing but we ran out of time. It's more complicated than we thought. =)
My 1903 Victorian commercial building (4 floor including basement) had a wrap around "floating" staircase from the second floor to the third. The third floor was originally a ballroom or community room which was fairly posh for the time (4,000 sq ft maple dance floor with horse hair lined padding under the hardwood - no squeaks, no sound at all, even after 120 years, elaborate tin ceiling complete open span accomplished by 5 huge timber beam trusses across the width of the building, electric perimeter lights integrated in tin crown molding ( unbelievable lengths of insulated copper wire for all of this, knob and tube of course), an electric elevator and two large restrooms. Obviously the staircase was quite elaborate for going up to this room and was representative that you were going somewhere special. Now, the reason for all of this explanation setup is that my stair case was similarly scantily supported, I used to just stare at how it was constructed, wondering what did they do and how did it work especially since it wasn't residential but commercial and had more traffic. I guess it was designed by someone who really knew physics and the transfer of force along the staircase as a whole because as a unit, it was supported as long as staircase as a unit was together and not compromised at any point, which it was still intact - I had no rot issues, so all was good. I think the Victorian design and building just pushed the envelope when it came to support - the always wanted to impress with staircases and entrances. My point: I see the same application in your home - your back stairwell. It worked as long as things along the way weren't compromised as you point out with the rot, etc. The Victorian designers and builders loved to show off - at least that was always my take - I would just look at my staircase and surmise - they were showing off - because to look at it would cause anyone to wonder how it is supported and did they pull that off - the physics of load transfer. Great video as always!
Hi from your old Retired Architect here in Ohio. I watched the previous video on the situation and my openion is the same. The existing lower interior walls are supporting the cantilever! of the attic level. What you need to do is to install a column from the basement floor to the attic landing, including a footer at the basement. It does not have to be a large column and can be burried inside the walls on the lower levels. I advise you that you have a local Architect look into this as it is a major concern and the building department might be looking! All my best love you videos and the cats of course. Just my opinion viewing the video.
Thank you so much gor this clear explanation with the site map and little green light. I would start in the basement with a square column, or poured on site concrete column up to ground floor level. Than create pockets for the joists to fit in. Same on connection first to second and further on. The basement colum the biggest surface, carries the mist weight. You've made amazing progress.
I like the idea of the change in design plans being a possible reason for things. With that said, maybe the best solution is to “put back” the entry where it might have been intended. You will then have a stronger support system for the upper floors. Trying to think how to put this in words…leaving the open alcove really isn’t going to alter things enough to keep it. Moving the door and adding the header can look fabulous. Thank you for listening to your fans and addressing things to help us understand. ❤
I agree. It looks like the home owner at the time of construction said, "can't we move that over there" and the carpenter look and said, "I don't see why not." without asking the designer. And the rest is history.
So much to ponder... I know you will figure out what needs to be done to make this stairway safer. I 'm just watching in amazement. I can't wait to see what you do and see those stairs level and be supported and working like they were meant to work. I've seen you both fix so many things in this house, that seemed overwhelming, yet you worked until it was done and did an amazing job figuring out the right way to do it. You're awesome and it's so fun to be a part of seeing the changes. Thanks for including us! :)
You two are amazing, I was overwhelmed after the first 5 minutes of the video. I have followed all your videos since the beginning and absolutely amazing job so far.
Start at the basement floor and replace the structure all the way up to the attic. I think that you are correct in assuming that a change was made on the first floor doorway and you should add a post for support.
Wow, imagine all the work that need to be done now just to lift that corner in the attic by 1 inch. But you guys have the tenacity to sort this out. By the way, your explanation was very clear. In my opinion I would move the basement door back to probably the original position which will give extra support. Good luck.
It is so amazing what termites and water can do to a place! I know we’ve lost a lot of old engineering that seemed to work at that time, but it’s crazy how the stairs aren’t even attached to the brick! What a puzzle😊😊
I don't have any pertinent information to share, but am astounded by the ability of that staircase to continue to stand and allow anyone to still use it. Whatever you decide to do. I am sure will be an improvement. Best of luck to you.
To me, you nailed it. The basement door is in the wrong place and putting up a wall with a header and move the doorway should fix it. That should make the whole stairway fully supported all the way to the attic. I couldn’t see it until you opened up them walls and walked us through each floor, good job guy’s. I just got caught up watching all of the episodes for this project and I have to say you all are doing a great job. My favorite series was the trenching for the water line 😅 you kept getting bigger equipment after each encounter with obstacles 😂 I laughed because anyone that has dug in a yard feels your pain, now you know why the professionals bring the big stuff even for small jobs. Look forward to your progress, God bless.
A few thoughts - I believe there is a good reason why the stairs are not attached to the brick walls. As you have discovered, wood moves over time. If one side of the staircase is attached to the wall, it will stay where it is, but the other side will sag resulting in the stairs being un-level. I have seen the is in row houses in Brooklyn, NY where the stairs are attached to the party wall and the other side slopes downward. You are being given sound advice from many viewers - start in the basement with a masonry footing and then build a continuous supported post on up. You may need to move the door to the basement on the first floor to fit a post where it needs to be. Ignore the naysayers - sad they don’t have anything constructive to add. You are both incredible! Robert from NY
Thanks for the positive comment! We try to take all the comments in stride, good and bad. We know that we have a lot to learn and are very happy to learn from others. Thanks for the construction advice.
Thank you for this additional explanation, I admit last week was confusing. For the need of one essential support post, man are there a lot of connected parts! I can feel your frustration and apprehension with this fix. Best of luck, I'll be watching and cheering you both on!
First of all thanks for doing the detailed tour of that staircase, it was super helpful in understanding the configuration. After going back and forth I think you are 100% correct that there is a difference from the as designed versus the as built. I think that fixing the brick wall and the other structural supports would probably get it close to as built, but alone I don't think those would fix the overall structural deficiency. A new support neatly blended into the existing structure would probably be a wise course of action to make sure everything is supported for the long term.
Your hanging wall was at one time load bearing maybe. It was probably helping to carry the load and when the floor beneath it settled it quit contributing which lead to unintended pressures elsewhere? Maybe? It not too far from that to the corner you need to support.
I agree with the plan of putting a post in from the basement up... as that is just not going to support all that weight without one. They did things very strange back in the day... but somehow it seemed to work... for the most part.
It sounds like you are on your way to making the proper improvements to support the stairs. This will be alot of work, but you have proven your ability to tackle big projects already.
I think it’s the first floor double joists above the stairs running parallel to the stairs that hold up the walls above, it looks like all the rotted basement and first floor joists,especially the double and triple joists have coursed the sagging
matched my paper drawing. What i did in helping me visualize the problem... not the floor view drawing. but "corner" view aka vertically. I drew out wall, newel post drawing going on the way up. that is where I suspected contractor is thinking using newel post as corbel .. which i would rephrase into wonky method. did not realize the stalactite newel post is hollow that you had shown on 1st/2nd floor. I thought those stalactite newel was solid, layered wood... Thanks for the "validation" video you posted today. Clearly stairs need fixing (aka frame, beams etc) and add full length post (replacing the newel post that is sitting on the corner.) supporting that corner on first floor.
the hole in brick, video time stamp 3.07 nearest word describing that is putlog. that terminology appears in castle construction method, where builder wedges a wood log into a specifically laid hole in stone wall in order to continue working on stone wall above. This is method used before scaffold method is developed.. Other people in Europe suspected putlog method is more frequent than scaffolding because able to hoist heavy materials up, possibly 50 to 100 kg materials. Today, this is not in use because modern crane hoist more heavier materials up, faster than the putlog-hoisting could.
@@moorelandhouse outcropping meaning a large rock stick out of the wall... that is called corbel. Corbel is often integrated into stone wall with large stone or stacks of large stones, to support something such as roof. and is long term support. There are situation having a hole in wall above corbel is called "pocket corbel". I did use that corbel word on your stair with wooden newel stalactite. It was only word I was able to think of which might get me laughed at for that word description with your stairs.
@@moorelandhouse If stone corbel is there in basement, then must have had served real purpose of some kind. Corbels are used "permanently". putlogs are temporary.
It is very clearly original in my opinion. I’m excited to see this project, can’t wait to see how you guys figure it out. My mom just bought a house built in 1888 and the framing techniques are eerily similar….and guess what she also has termite damage, so now I get to feel some similar pain to what you both have been feeling! 😂 😭
I agree with you I don't think this was a design change at all I think it is totally rot related and if the Joists are put back along with the arch in the brick wall everything will be fine. The big question is at what point this becomes replacement over repair and triggers code requirements from building inspectors.
Bear in mind that the wall in question is not really carrying any load beyond the surrounding floor loads/stair. Think of the supporting structure like a space frame where all attached members act to transfer the load. I think what you have is probably just a design error. The stair and wall do not necessarily have to have a post to hold it up (but it sure would be better if if did). The reason you are in a quandary is because you cannot raise or jack up the stair/wall to level it up an inch or so. The reason I think you can't do this is because that is not the way it was supported to begin with. It was all held together by its surrounding parts. This was sufficient until the parts rotted. I haven't read the comments from last week so forgive me is this is redundant.
Yes, you are correct. Jacking up the landings doesn't do anything to the surrounding walls because they were designed to be self supporting and are not really structurally attached to each other.
I also agree that it's a design change order and that those fake newel posts were meant to go over something else instead of hanging there in space. With so many examples of doorways in the house, it wouldn't be hard to recreate the look of the originally designed doorway. It looks to be worth it once the basement floor joists were replaced to recreate what structure would be needed to make the doorway and provide the obviously needed extra support structure for everything going up to the attic.
Plot twist, stairs not attached to the wall. I didn't notice that last week. All that matters is that you two understand what has happened and what needs to be done. This will make for some great videos.
That makes complete sense now. I think you're right about the late change order with the door placement and eliminating that post caused the sagging. It was probably fine when the house was dry but when the roof and bathroom started to leak everything just rotted away. It's also funny how the stairs aren't using stringers and just trim pieces to form the stairs next to the wall. Maybe the ran out of wood that day and thought they'd just do it a cover it up and nobody would be the wiser. Just goes to show you that even back then there was shortcuts being done by builders and once covered up nobody would know until about 100 years later. LOL
Oh, I think more than a 100 years. You all are doing a GREAT job. I watch all the French Chateau Vlogs too and they see and are dealing with the same things. Check out Escape to Rural France and see what Dan is dealing with. Miss Moreland is a piece of cake compared to his. Keep up the great work and we'll keep providing moral support.@@moorelandhouse
Could it be possible that what you called a 'newel post thingie' originally had a square pole in in it going up and down, to support everything and somehow got removed at a later date? Maybe to make the opening wider? I hope it makes sense what I said don't know how to explain it better.
I have a bit of a question or a thought, if the first floor is as it suppose to be, could the L shape wall on the second floor be the change order? Only reason I ask is I had seen other houses of the same age where the bead board is fitted in and makes up a wall with no studs, the whole wall being the bead board. It looks as if the 2nd floor hand rail for some part of it run next to the wall which seems off as well. If this is the case the second floor landing would had to only support the live load in that area and not the weight of the wall, which would make me want to see how the 3rd floor (the attic floor) can be cantilever?
We hadn't thought of that! We would have to put another wall on the second floor in order to cantilever the floor joists on the third floor. We would still have the second floor "cantilevered" joists to deal with though. Thanks for the intriguing thoughts.
I do not see the need for an extra post in front of the door to the basement stairs, because who says that a beam has to be straight ? I (as in me, myself) would laminate 2 or 3 layers of LVL in a criss cross pattern and laminate both sides with some 1/4" steel and bolt it together with 3/8" bolts, that way the it could go across the opening and follow the second floor stair stringer down to the existing wall where you could hide a post inside the corner behind the door frame. Keep up the amazing work.
Thanks for the idea! That's exactly the reason that we put this video out. We know there are people that have done this before and we love gaining knowledge from others.
I think your idea of the basement door being moved to where it is now is valid. Back stairs were for the servants, hence why they went from the attic to the basement. They were usually out of sight from the 'rest of the house' hence why I think where the arch doorway beside the now basement stair's door is what was actually the doorway to the 'servant's area' with the basement stairs having no door (hope this all makes sense). Later, it could have been noticed how much 'heat' was lost having the basement stairs open in the back hence the door was moved. Or I can come up with several other scenarios as to why it was moved but still think it's a valid theory.
Do you guys think you will ever be able to redo this house so its safe enough for you to live in again. You are so courageous taking this on im concerned for your safety.
Funny thing about that run of stairs to the basement. Since we know there was another staircase in the kitchen originally that went down that was much larger, this one looks a bit like an afterthought. An original afterthought, but one nonetheless. I don't get the feeling the design was altered so much as all the cantilevering going on with the landings would have made the weight of that corner of the attic not an issue. It is possible to be clever and cantilever that wall with the diagonal wall of the first floor staircase acting on that corner point all the way up to the attic. (I hope my explanation is clear this is a hard format to explain something technical in) Basically if everything is supported properly again, I don't think it would be much of an issue.
We are going to try that first. We are pretty sure they knew what they were doing but didn't expect the roof and box gutters to never be repaired and destroy the whole house.
I think I now understand the structural arrangement. I have no idea how one would rebuild it to make it any stronger, but I have faith that Frank will come up with a good solution. I can almost see the frustration in your faces. Hang in there folks, one step at a time and it will look like when the house was built.
Voy en este capítulo.. los he visto todos ...pero no entiendo lo que hablan.. los subtitulo están en inglés... podrían poner en español porfavor?.. saludos desde chile
Surprise, Surprise, & here 'thought' mansion about completed after all the work been done & like the Pro's you are, discover more major work like 2:15 desperately needs to be done.. Have to Salute you folks for the challenge's you face...
Some of the Comments are extremely inflammatory. I suppose it is more about the upholstery in their chair. Anyway love what you both do. You are a great team and ignore the negative Nellie’s. Ps love those cats.
Those type of comments usually take care of themselves. The person that posts them usually thinks about how they were viewed and deletes the comment. =)
I hope that the film will be watched by an expert in this field and will help solve the mystery, although the most culprit here is probably water and what happened to the wood, how it got bent and rotted, as well as what the termites ate. I wish that someone would help you for free and that you could start solving this problem. Best regards to you both and all three cats🍀🍀
If anyone can figure this architectural puzzle out, Frank can. But have you considered hiring a structural engineer or an architect? I know, easy for me to suggest, I’m not paying for it.😊
It is an odd construction and not entirely safe I would think. Why not remove the bottom two stairs? Then you can properly support the upper stairs and your problem is solved.
Sure seems like someone made a design mistake and covered it over with lath and plaster. It can happen. One thought moving forward, remove everything surrounding what should be the "load vector/post" from the top down, just to be certain that there actually is good load bearing wood and it is continuous (otherwise you're just guessing, right?). Jacking it from the bottom makes sense but it would be fruitless if you don't have a continuous support going up to the top. I'm sure guys get where I'm going. Cheers and thanks for the informative "post", pardon the pun!
Yes, we are still in the process of discovery. We have been taking more plaster off and removing more flooring to get the best idea we can before starting back with the real construction.
I maintain it is a cumulative failure on every level you have an approximately 1 inch drop. On each floor you have a structural double triple joist frame around the stair opening that has rotted and dropped if those beams held the whole structure would have held up. If you bring the wall out at the basement door it is going to narrow and block the doorway under the arch into the room behind and it is not going to land on the beam so it still will not be really structural. I am not a structural engineer or architect so my suggestion is to find a professional who can look at the loads and they can explain how it worked and if it needs to be modified of course code today is far different than 100 years ago. I also know they used to build what are called flying staircases that only were supported top and bottom.
Thanks for giving us the term "flying staircase". We now can start down another rabbit hole on the interwebs and figure this thing out. We do agree that if everything would have held up that we wouldn't be dealing with this problem today. A lot of it transpired when they replaced the window on the second floor landing with a door. That led to quite a bit of a moisture control problem that rotted out the most important beam that held up the brick wall.
I first learned about these in grade school as part of field trip to the Portland museum of art. There is one in the McLellan-Sweat Mansion Galleries there. another equally historic one is located in the historic Victoria Mansion in the same citystorage.googleapis.com/hippostcard/p/c1ab881557940ca2f5b494c18b2f7d80.jpg@@moorelandhouse
I have read a lot of the comments on this post and still don't feel the design. involves a change order I think it is built as originally designed. My one question is can you put it back with out changes and meet code I think a conversation with a structural engineer or architect might building inspector might be wise.@@moorelandhouse
This would be a good time to stop and hire a professional structural engineer make sure the engineer has a PE and a SE in his or her license . They can come and draw up plans in how to support the stairs and any other concerns you may have with miss Moorland .I'm personally surprised you have not been red tag in your county. This is not to be mean I just want you guys to be safe and others who visit miss Mooreland. Keep up the good work :)
We have just been repairing the structure the way it was designed. The design has already been engineered and lasted 130 years. That's good enough for us. If we change anything structural, we will obviously consult someone.
…it is joists, not joisteses. Where do you get this horrible mispronunciation? Also, your issue is just settlement. It can be easily solved with a rudimentary steel angle iron brace. I question your intelligence. Also, why don’t you allow the lady to speak?
We are going to pin this comment to the top so people can see what kind of person you are. Enjoy.
A piece of steel angle iron isn't going to fix rotten joists.
You don't comprehend humor and sarcasm, do you?
Might I suggest that you watch all of their videos concerning the RESTORATION of Ms. Mooreland. There are four years worth of humorous mispronunciations that will aide you in your rudimentary knowledge of this channel.
P.S. Angle Iron wasn't available or used in the 1880's when constructing houses of this size and grandeur. Add that little tidbit to your lack of intelligence when posting such a nasty comment.
P.P.S. Terri does speak. You just weren't listening.
I'm thinking you don't understand that in the time this house was built steel beam where not cost affective for a home like this.
I see your command of both the English language and humor are masterful. You must be a ton of fun at parties.
I’m not an architect! but I have renovated several houses! You need a footer in the basement for the post to sit on! Going all the way up to the attic! To support the stairs! I would check out securing the stairs to the brick wall also! So it’s not just freestanding along side the wall!
We will figure out how it was designed and try to make it better. That might result in support from the basement. It would certainly be the easiest way to do it.
Good morning! The little inset of the floor plan showing us where you’re working is so helpful, so thank you for that. Figuring out this house without drawings seems a little like putting together a jigsaw puzzle without the aid of the picture on the box. Would love for those plans to be discovered by someone cleaning out an attic someday. Till then, I’m here for the investigating!
We agree. We had every intention of trying to figure out some software to draw out the existing framing but we ran out of time. It's more complicated than we thought. =)
My 1903 Victorian commercial building (4 floor including basement) had a wrap around "floating" staircase from the second floor to the third. The third floor was originally a ballroom or community room which was fairly posh for the time (4,000 sq ft maple dance floor with horse hair lined padding under the hardwood - no squeaks, no sound at all, even after 120 years, elaborate tin ceiling complete open span accomplished by 5 huge timber beam trusses across the width of the building, electric perimeter lights integrated in tin crown molding ( unbelievable lengths of insulated copper wire for all of this, knob and tube of course), an electric elevator and two large restrooms. Obviously the staircase was quite elaborate for going up to this room and was representative that you were going somewhere special. Now, the reason for all of this explanation setup is that my stair case was similarly scantily supported, I used to just stare at how it was constructed, wondering what did they do and how did it work especially since it wasn't residential but commercial and had more traffic. I guess it was designed by someone who really knew physics and the transfer of force along the staircase as a whole because as a unit, it was supported as long as staircase as a unit was together and not compromised at any point, which it was still intact - I had no rot issues, so all was good. I think the Victorian design and building just pushed the envelope when it came to support - the always wanted to impress with staircases and entrances. My point: I see the same application in your home - your back stairwell. It worked as long as things along the way weren't compromised as you point out with the rot, etc. The Victorian designers and builders loved to show off - at least that was always my take - I would just look at my staircase and surmise - they were showing off - because to look at it would cause anyone to wonder how it is supported and did they pull that off - the physics of load transfer. Great video as always!
We understand what you are saying. The stringers and landings themselves are holding the staircase up. Thanks for the explanation.
You got to love the Vivtorian!
Hi from your old Retired Architect here in Ohio. I watched the previous video on the situation and my openion is the same. The existing lower interior walls are supporting the cantilever! of the attic level. What you need to do is to install a column from the basement floor to the attic landing, including a footer at the basement. It does not have to be a large column and can be burried inside the walls on the lower levels. I advise you that you have a local Architect look into this as it is a major concern and the building department might be looking! All my best love you videos and the cats of course. Just my opinion viewing the video.
Thanks, you are the type of person that we are looking for comments from. Glad you watched.
Fascinating. Enjoyed. Blessings.
Thanks!
Very clear explanation, and yes, what a mess
Yes, it is quite a mess.
Good explanation. Looking forward to seeing the progress on this!
Thanks!
Thank you so much gor this clear explanation with the site map and little green light. I would start in the basement with a square column, or poured on site concrete column up to ground floor level. Than create pockets for the joists to fit in. Same on connection first to second and further on. The basement colum the biggest surface, carries the mist weight. You've made amazing progress.
It was fun doing a stairwell tour. =)
I am confused not confused lol. I am very intrigued on seeing how you do this. You guys amaze me.
We are intrigued as well. =)
Happy Sunday!
Morning!
I like the idea of the change in design plans being a possible reason for things. With that said, maybe the best solution is to “put back” the entry where it might have been intended. You will then have a stronger support system for the upper floors. Trying to think how to put this in words…leaving the open alcove really isn’t going to alter things enough to keep it. Moving the door and adding the header can look fabulous. Thank you for listening to your fans and addressing things to help us understand. ❤
We really enjoy the interaction. As one giant mind there is nothing that we all can't accomplish.
I agree. It looks like the home owner at the time of construction said, "can't we move that over there" and the carpenter look and said, "I don't see why not." without asking the designer. And the rest is history.
So much to ponder... I know you will figure out what needs to be done to make this stairway safer. I 'm just watching in amazement. I can't wait to see what you do and see those stairs level and be supported and working like they were meant to work. I've seen you both fix so many things in this house, that seemed overwhelming, yet you worked until it was done and did an amazing job figuring out the right way to do it. You're awesome and it's so fun to be a part of seeing the changes. Thanks for including us! :)
Thanks for following along and the moral support!
You two are amazing, I was overwhelmed after the first 5 minutes of the video. I have followed all your videos since the beginning and absolutely amazing job so far.
Yes, we recognize your comments. Thanks for following along!
I'm less confused. Good detective work.
Thanks!
Start at the basement floor and replace the structure all the way up to the attic. I think that you are correct in assuming that a change was made on the first floor doorway and you should add a post for support.
Yep, that's the plan for now.
Wow, imagine all the work that need to be done now just to lift that corner in the attic by 1 inch. But you guys have the tenacity to sort this out. By the way, your explanation was very clear. In my opinion I would move the basement door back to probably the original position which will give extra support. Good luck.
That's the plan!
It is so amazing what termites and water can do to a place! I know we’ve lost a lot of old engineering that seemed to work at that time, but it’s crazy how the stairs aren’t even attached to the brick! What a puzzle😊😊
It really is!
Nice! I can’t wait to see what you guys do to fix the continual joist problems. Good luck and many blessings.
We just fix the joist problems by replacing them. =)
I don't have any pertinent information to share, but am astounded by the ability of that staircase to continue to stand and allow anyone to still use it. Whatever you decide to do. I am sure will be an improvement. Best of luck to you.
Whatever we do, it will be level and plumb when we are done. =)
You make me laugh out loud with your floor joists etetsssss😊
Always good to laugh a little. =)
The old house IS beautiful...but what a mess!
This project is a natural for UA-cam.
Be safe and keep the videos coming!
Yes, we will always have plenty of projects. =)
Thanks for the explanation and how you will solve this issue. I always enjoy my Sunday morning check-ins to see what my favorite DYI couple are doing.
We will just start putting it back together like it was designed and see what happens. =)
To me, you nailed it. The basement door is in the wrong place and putting up a wall with a header and move the doorway should fix it. That should make the whole stairway fully supported all the way to the attic. I couldn’t see it until you opened up them walls and walked us through each floor, good job guy’s. I just got caught up watching all of the episodes for this project and I have to say you all are doing a great job. My favorite series was the trenching for the water line 😅 you kept getting bigger equipment after each encounter with obstacles 😂 I laughed because anyone that has dug in a yard feels your pain, now you know why the professionals bring the big stuff even for small jobs. Look forward to your progress, God bless.
Yes, the trench is the one project so far that we regret not hiring out. It wouldn't have cost much more and it would have been done quickly.
A few thoughts - I believe there is a good reason why the stairs are not attached to the brick walls. As you have discovered, wood moves over time. If one side of the staircase is attached to the wall, it will stay where it is, but the other side will sag resulting in the stairs being un-level. I have seen the is in row houses in Brooklyn, NY where the stairs are attached to the party wall and the other side slopes downward. You are being given sound advice from many viewers - start in the basement with a masonry footing and then build a continuous supported post on up. You may need to move the door to the basement on the first floor to fit a post where it needs to be. Ignore the naysayers - sad they don’t have anything constructive to add. You are both incredible! Robert from NY
Thanks for the positive comment! We try to take all the comments in stride, good and bad. We know that we have a lot to learn and are very happy to learn from others. Thanks for the construction advice.
You explained it very well!
Glad you think so!
Thank you for this additional explanation, I admit last week was confusing. For the need of one essential support post, man are there a lot of connected parts! I can feel your frustration and apprehension with this fix. Best of luck, I'll be watching and cheering you both on!
They certainly expected everything to work together. What an amazing engineering feat.
First of all thanks for doing the detailed tour of that staircase, it was super helpful in understanding the configuration. After going back and forth I think you are 100% correct that there is a difference from the as designed versus the as built. I think that fixing the brick wall and the other structural supports would probably get it close to as built, but alone I don't think those would fix the overall structural deficiency. A new support neatly blended into the existing structure would probably be a wise course of action to make sure everything is supported for the long term.
Thanks for the validation. =)
Your hanging wall was at one time load bearing maybe. It was probably helping to carry the load and when the floor beneath it settled it quit contributing which lead to unintended pressures elsewhere? Maybe? It not too far from that to the corner you need to support.
We have gleaned from other people's comments that this was all designed to intricately work together. We will see if we can put it back together now.
I agree with the plan of putting a post in from the basement up... as that is just not going to support all that weight without one. They did things very strange back in the day... but somehow it seemed to work... for the most part.
We will make it better. =)
@@moorelandhouse Of that I have no doubts.
You both are the best. Thanks for explaining and showing us everything! Wishing you both a very Merry Christmas season
Our pleasure!
It sounds like you are on your way to making the proper improvements to support the stairs. This will be alot of work, but you have proven your ability to tackle big projects already.
We mainly just try to restore what was there. It has proved that it was overbuilt by not collapsing even with all the rot.
I think it’s the first floor double joists above the stairs running parallel to the stairs that hold up the walls above, it looks like all the rotted basement and first floor joists,especially the double and triple joists have coursed the sagging
Yes, they certainly didn't help. =)
So happy there are a few watching who may be able to add to your basic knowledge of the staircase's engineering.🤐🙂
Agreed!
So does the house have to entries to the basement? Have you ever found the plans on the house in any state archives?
There were two interior stairways to the basement and one exterior. We haven't looked in the archives.
matched my paper drawing. What i did in helping me visualize the problem... not the floor view drawing. but "corner" view aka vertically. I drew out wall, newel post drawing going on the way up. that is where I suspected contractor is thinking using newel post as corbel .. which i would rephrase into wonky method. did not realize the stalactite newel post is hollow that you had shown on 1st/2nd floor. I thought those stalactite newel was solid, layered wood...
Thanks for the "validation" video you posted today. Clearly stairs need fixing (aka frame, beams etc) and add full length post (replacing the newel post that is sitting on the corner.) supporting that corner on first floor.
Thanks for taking your time and checking in. We are glad there are others out there keeping an eye on what we are doing. =)
the hole in brick, video time stamp 3.07 nearest word describing that is putlog. that terminology appears in castle construction method, where builder wedges a wood log into a specifically laid hole in stone wall in order to continue working on stone wall above. This is method used before scaffold method is developed..
Other people in Europe suspected putlog method is more frequent than scaffolding because able to hoist heavy materials up, possibly 50 to 100 kg materials. Today, this is not in use because modern crane hoist more heavier materials up, faster than the putlog-hoisting could.
Thanks for the word! We have those stone outcroppings in the stone basement and figured they were for some type of scaffolding.
@@moorelandhouse outcropping meaning a large rock stick out of the wall... that is called corbel. Corbel is often integrated into stone wall with large stone or stacks of large stones, to support something such as roof. and is long term support. There are situation having a hole in wall above corbel is called "pocket corbel".
I did use that corbel word on your stair with wooden newel stalactite. It was only word I was able to think of which might get me laughed at for that word description with your stairs.
@@moorelandhouse If stone corbel is there in basement, then must have had served real purpose of some kind. Corbels are used "permanently". putlogs are temporary.
It is very clearly original in my opinion. I’m excited to see this project, can’t wait to see how you guys figure it out. My mom just bought a house built in 1888 and the framing techniques are eerily similar….and guess what she also has termite damage, so now I get to feel some similar pain to what you both have been feeling! 😂 😭
Yes, not surprised about the termites. =) Frank grew up in Montana and had no idea what termites were until we moved to Kentucky.
@@moorelandhouse Yeah, I’m glad he didn’t they are little devils. Luckily the damage for us is only in the very back of the house in a porch area
I agree with you I don't think this was a design change at all I think it is totally rot related and if the Joists are put back along with the arch in the brick wall everything will be fine. The big question is at what point this becomes replacement over repair and triggers code requirements from building inspectors.
That's one of the reasons that we are being careful with how we accomplish things.@@gordonulrickson3626
Bear in mind that the wall in question is not really carrying any load beyond the surrounding floor loads/stair. Think of the supporting
structure like a space frame where all attached members act to transfer the load. I think what you have is probably just a design error. The stair and wall do not necessarily have to have a post to hold it up (but it sure would be better if if did).
The reason you are in a quandary is because you cannot raise or jack up the stair/wall to level it up an inch or so. The reason I think you can't do this is because that is not the way it was supported to begin with. It was all held together by its surrounding parts. This was sufficient until the parts rotted.
I haven't read the comments from last week so forgive me is this is redundant.
Yes, you are correct. Jacking up the landings doesn't do anything to the surrounding walls because they were designed to be self supporting and are not really structurally attached to each other.
I also agree that it's a design change order and that those fake newel posts were meant to go over something else instead of hanging there in space. With so many examples of doorways in the house, it wouldn't be hard to recreate the look of the originally designed doorway. It looks to be worth it once the basement floor joists were replaced to recreate what structure would be needed to make the doorway and provide the obviously needed extra support structure for everything going up to the attic.
With the shape it is in we would have to rebuild the doorway anyway. Might as well move it and make it look original. =)
Plot twist, stairs not attached to the wall. I didn't notice that last week. All that matters is that you two understand what has happened and what needs to be done. This will make for some great videos.
Yes, we learn more and more every day.
Love how you say joistess! lol I do stuff like that.
English plurals are tough. =)
That makes complete sense now. I think you're right about the late change order with the door placement and eliminating that post caused the sagging. It was probably fine when the house was dry but when the roof and bathroom started to leak everything just rotted away. It's also funny how the stairs aren't using stringers and just trim pieces to form the stairs next to the wall. Maybe the ran out of wood that day and thought they'd just do it a cover it up and nobody would be the wiser. Just goes to show you that even back then there was shortcuts being done by builders and once covered up nobody would know until about 100 years later. LOL
We just pray that our fixes will last for another 100 years. =)
Oh, I think more than a 100 years. You all are doing a GREAT job. I watch all the French Chateau Vlogs too and they see and are dealing with the same things. Check out Escape to Rural France and see what Dan is dealing with. Miss Moreland is a piece of cake compared to his. Keep up the great work and we'll keep providing moral support.@@moorelandhouse
Thanks! We do watch a few of those channels.
Another great video 😀
Thanks!
You might have to brace the stairs up to replace all the rotten joists under the stairs.
That's what our plan is for now. We have quite a bit of experience with propping up floors in order to repair the rot.
Could it be possible that what you called a 'newel post thingie' originally had a square pole in in it going up and down, to support everything and somehow got removed at a later date? Maybe to make the opening wider? I hope it makes sense what I said don't know how to explain it better.
We think that might be how it was designed but it might have been changed before they finished the framing construction.
I think you might be right about the door
It's definitely a path to pursue in order to find out more.
I have a bit of a question or a thought, if the first floor is as it suppose to be, could the L shape wall on the second floor be the change order? Only reason I ask is I had seen other houses of the same age where the bead board is fitted in and makes up a wall with no studs, the whole wall being the bead board. It looks as if the 2nd floor hand rail for some part of it run next to the wall which seems off as well. If this is the case the second floor landing would had to only support the live load in that area and not the weight of the wall, which would make me want to see how the 3rd floor (the attic floor) can be cantilever?
We hadn't thought of that! We would have to put another wall on the second floor in order to cantilever the floor joists on the third floor. We would still have the second floor "cantilevered" joists to deal with though. Thanks for the intriguing thoughts.
I do not see the need for an extra post in front of the door to the basement stairs, because who says that a beam has to be straight ? I (as in me, myself) would laminate 2 or 3 layers of LVL in a criss cross pattern and laminate both sides with some 1/4" steel and bolt it together with 3/8" bolts, that way the it could go across the opening and follow the second floor stair stringer down to the existing wall where you could hide a post inside the corner behind the door frame. Keep up the amazing work.
Thanks for the idea! That's exactly the reason that we put this video out. We know there are people that have done this before and we love gaining knowledge from others.
I think your idea of the basement door being moved to where it is now is valid. Back stairs were for the servants, hence why they went from the attic to the basement. They were usually out of sight from the 'rest of the house' hence why I think where the arch doorway beside the now basement stair's door is what was actually the doorway to the 'servant's area' with the basement stairs having no door (hope this all makes sense). Later, it could have been noticed how much 'heat' was lost having the basement stairs open in the back hence the door was moved. Or I can come up with several other scenarios as to why it was moved but still think it's a valid theory.
Always feels good when someone agrees with us. =)
Do you guys think you will ever be able to redo this house so its safe enough for you to live in again. You are so courageous taking this on im concerned for your safety.
We always try to be as safe as needed. Like any construction site, it will be safe once it is done.
looks like you have to start at the bottom and reframe to the attic stripping all the walls up to see how bad it is, not easy to do
We will make it right, whatever it takes.
Wow! Reverse engineering is not easy. Excellent job though!
They don't build them like they used to.
Funny thing about that run of stairs to the basement. Since we know there was another staircase in the kitchen originally that went down that was much larger, this one looks a bit like an afterthought. An original afterthought, but one nonetheless. I don't get the feeling the design was altered so much as all the cantilevering going on with the landings would have made the weight of that corner of the attic not an issue. It is possible to be clever and cantilever that wall with the diagonal wall of the first floor staircase acting on that corner point all the way up to the attic. (I hope my explanation is clear this is a hard format to explain something technical in) Basically if everything is supported properly again, I don't think it would be much of an issue.
We are going to try that first. We are pretty sure they knew what they were doing but didn't expect the roof and box gutters to never be repaired and destroy the whole house.
I think I now understand the structural arrangement. I have no idea how one would rebuild it to make it any stronger, but I have faith that Frank will come up with a good solution. I can almost see the frustration in your faces. Hang in there folks, one step at a time and it will look like when the house was built.
Yeah, we are pretty sure that it all was supposed to work together and once one part failed a little bit, it caused a cascade of problems.
Voy en este capítulo.. los he visto todos ...pero no entiendo lo que hablan.. los subtitulo están en inglés... podrían poner en español porfavor?.. saludos desde chile
Lo sentimos, no sabemos cómo. Gracias por ver.
Surprise, Surprise, & here 'thought' mansion about completed after all the work been done & like the Pro's you are, discover more major work like 2:15 desperately needs to be done.. Have to Salute you folks for the challenge's you face...
Oh, we will never be hurting for projects to keep us busy. =)
Some of the Comments are extremely inflammatory. I suppose it is more about the upholstery in their chair. Anyway love what you both do. You are a great team and ignore the negative Nellie’s. Ps love those cats.
Those type of comments usually take care of themselves. The person that posts them usually thinks about how they were viewed and deletes the comment. =)
Thanks for the explanation it’s now as clear as mud 😂😂 but I have every faith in you both
Our pleasure! Glad we cleared it up. =)
I hope that the film will be watched by an expert in this field and will help solve the mystery, although the most culprit here is probably water and what happened to the wood, how it got bent and rotted, as well as what the termites ate. I wish that someone would help you for free and that you could start solving this problem. Best regards to you both and all three cats🍀🍀
We have learned quite a bit from the people that have watched the videos. We are very thankful for them.
@@moorelandhouse The experience of others can be a great help, and it is good that people share it.👋😘
🐜🐜🐜 In our defense the wood was delicious. 😁
Termites gotta do what termites gotta do. =)
If anyone can figure this architectural puzzle out, Frank can. But have you considered hiring a structural engineer or an architect? I know, easy for me to suggest, I’m not paying for it.😊
If we run into something that we need to change the structure, we will consult someone that actually knows what they are doing. =)
Thank you
It is an odd construction and not entirely safe I would think. Why not remove the bottom two stairs? Then you can properly support the upper stairs and your problem is solved.
We don't plan on remodeling. We are restoring. Even though they didn't stay level, the stairs have remained structurally sound for 130 years.
Sure seems like someone made a design mistake and covered it over with lath and plaster. It can happen. One thought moving forward, remove everything surrounding what should be the "load vector/post" from the top down, just to be certain that there actually is good load bearing wood and it is continuous (otherwise you're just guessing, right?). Jacking it from the bottom makes sense but it would be fruitless if you don't have a continuous support going up to the top. I'm sure guys get where I'm going. Cheers and thanks for the informative "post", pardon the pun!
Yes, we are still in the process of discovery. We have been taking more plaster off and removing more flooring to get the best idea we can before starting back with the real construction.
I maintain it is a cumulative failure on every level you have an approximately 1 inch drop. On each floor you have a structural double triple joist frame around the stair opening that has rotted and dropped if those beams held the whole structure would have held up. If you bring the wall out at the basement door it is going to narrow and block the doorway under the arch into the room behind and it is not going to land on the beam so it still will not be really structural. I am not a structural engineer or architect so my suggestion is to find a professional who can look at the loads and they can explain how it worked and if it needs to be modified of course code today is far different than 100 years ago. I also know they used to build what are called flying staircases that only were supported top and bottom.
Thanks for giving us the term "flying staircase". We now can start down another rabbit hole on the interwebs and figure this thing out. We do agree that if everything would have held up that we wouldn't be dealing with this problem today. A lot of it transpired when they replaced the window on the second floor landing with a door. That led to quite a bit of a moisture control problem that rotted out the most important beam that held up the brick wall.
I first learned about these in grade school as part of field trip to the Portland museum of art. There is one in the McLellan-Sweat Mansion Galleries there. another equally historic one is located in the historic Victoria Mansion in the same citystorage.googleapis.com/hippostcard/p/c1ab881557940ca2f5b494c18b2f7d80.jpg@@moorelandhouse
I have read a lot of the comments on this post and still don't feel the design. involves a change order I think it is built as originally designed. My one question is can you put it back with out changes and meet code I think a conversation with a structural engineer or architect might building inspector might be wise.@@moorelandhouse
Thanks for the additional information!
This would be a good time to stop and hire a professional structural engineer make sure the engineer has a PE and a SE in his or her license . They can come and draw up plans in how to support the stairs and any other concerns you may have with miss Moorland .I'm personally surprised you have not been red tag in your county. This is not to be mean I just want you guys to be safe and others who visit miss Mooreland.
Keep up the good work :)
We have just been repairing the structure the way it was designed. The design has already been engineered and lasted 130 years. That's good enough for us. If we change anything structural, we will obviously consult someone.
🦘🦘🦘I love it when we have a plan Frank and Carrie 🦘🦘🦘
Having a plan is usually a smart thing. =)