Is Voyager a Warship? - Debates Ft. Lore Reloaded
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OMG OMG OMG! I'M FAMOUS!
Lore Reloaded been waiting for this for ages.
Yes, you are! And all around the globe! Just like the captain and the commander.
Greetings from Austria.
Been looking forward to this collab since you first floated the idea a while back. It didn’t disappoint. Looking forward to more in the future!
Intrepid was Dominion era ship? how so? they never knew about the Dominion when the draw up plans for the Intrepid class probably before 2370
Federation first contact with the Dominion was 2370
Yes, at last! Hmm, Lore I am curious what you think of something. Spacedock: www.coldnorth.com/memoryicon/spacedock/spacedock.htm It was to be an expansion for the ship combat and construction system for the Lost Unicorn Games RPG by its head writer and was released for free after they finished the publishing. Not canon of course but quite an interesting body of work.
You can’t trust Lore, he helped the Crystalline Entity!
But he knew what would happen in star trek Picard
My take - space exploration is dangerouse even without the bad guy of the week. I like how Lost in Space (new series) gets this, there are plenty of hazards without attacking aliens. There are many reasons to have weapons and shields other than to destroy an enemy; space debris, radiation, ion storms, etc etc. ImHHO :D
Amoebas that want to mate with your ship...
Warpcore teats !
space cows; real cows are deadly enough!
2 points:
1: I agree.
2: There's a new series of Lost in Space? When did that happen?
Thomas Kirkness-Little its a reboot of the tv show from the 60’s and is streaming on Netflix. It’s actually really good. Great production value. Sensible story. Charming cast
Voyager is nether a warship or science vessel. Its a light explorer tactical cruiser.
Kenneth Dement
That's the best way to describe it
And yet, it's still as big as the original Enterprise, which was classified as a deep space, heavy cruiser. This has always bothered me how they played down Voyager's size, yet it should be as spacious as the original Enterprise.
Voyager may be longer but she's shorter by 7 decks, with WAY more scientific equipment and creature comforts packed into her. Plus a shuttle bay that takes up a third of the secondary hull. Plus even in the real world the size of ships gets bigger as technology rolls on, an Arleigh Burke class destroyer displaces almost 4 times what a Fletcher class does, and that's a similar time gap from TOS to Voyager.
@@Fuhque13 although she's much meatier design than the original Enterprise, and it seems that throughout the major powers around the federation had a general size inflation so it's not a stretch to think that ships at similar scale would be lighter than they once were. I mean the Miranda, volume wise, is actually a bit bigger than a refit constitution, and they'd both be heavy cruisers. A Miranda is definitely not a heavy cruiser by the TNG era standards
I think it's closer to a solid cruiser. I would call: oberths, Matilda's ect 'light'. Galaxy seems closer to a battleship.
My 2 cents, Intrepid fills a light cruiser billet. She's a swiss army knife. She's the kind of ship she can be sent out for 6 months to a year for a patrol mission or an exploration mission then come back.
Just my 2 cents.
Most Star Fleet ships fall into the jack of all trades mentality, designed to be flexible rather than dedicated to fill a specific role.
Shocky very true. But as I said, Intrepid in my mind fills a light cruiser role. Maybe not out on a 5 year mission, but 6 months to a year. Patrol X sector, show the flag, do some scientific missions as they pop up.
It's obviously more than capable of filling the role of a light cruiser as well as other roles, so sure why not. :-)
An article I read about Voyager around the time the series debuted said, that it was intended for missions of up to 3 years so the light cruiser descriptor fits the bill.
I disagree that the Intrepid class ships should be classified as small or a light cruiser or a short-term/short-range vessel. Compared to a Galaxy class ship, yes it's small. But it's still as big as an original Constitution class ship, which were classified as heavy cruisers with long-range, long-term capability. Voyager is the same size as the original Enterprise, so it should have equal or better capabilities than Kirk's ship.
also I dont think the Bellerophon being sent to Romulus of being an admirals ship is at all about it's combat capabilities, but rather it's speed. Until the prometheus it's the fastest federation ship. No 1 federation ship would last more than a few seconds in a fight against the fleet around romulus, but an intrepid could outrun warbirds all day long. Dominion ships as I recall werent that fast either, with the attack ships going warp 7 I think.
I originally thought Voyager was a long range tactical and exploratory vessel, i think they mentioned this somewhere... Its first mission to the "badlands" would involve dealing with cardassian vessels and highly maneuverable maquis ships.. keep in mind all federation vessels have science as a component.. specific science vessels like the oberth are given specific scienctific missions and usually are accompanied if needed by other vessels. They are not sent on deep space or long range missions where they would require different configurations. Voyager also initially carried a Tri colbalt weapon which potentially could destroy a small moon but had only one of these weapons. So voyager was either testing this weapon or may have needed it against maquis or cardassians. Potentially to destroy missile facilities like the missile B'elanna Torres has to disarm in "Dreadnought"
I agree. While the label "warship" doesn't seem to apply to Voyager, there's a definite emphasis on combat capability, from the speed and maneuverability that you mentioned, to Quantum torpedoes as part of the standard loadout.
voyager is like a Coast Guard cutter enforcing maritime Law and Seising contraband and Drugs.
I think long range is relative. And that the intrepid class is built for a few month missions compared to the flagships as the galaxy class that is built for a few years missions
Lubricus the slippery here's some perspective Voyager is about the size of the Constitution class cruiser. It is not small by any means.
peccatumDei pretty sure Voyager did NOT have Quantum torps. I've seen most of the episodes and don't remember the crew ever firing one.
From "The Thaw":
PARIS: This ship was built for combat performance, Harry, not musical performance. *Nobody figured we'd be taking any long trips.*
From "Someone to Watch Over Me":
NEELIX: Voyager's an Intrepid class starship with a crew of one hundred and forty six, *designed for long-term exploration.* I thought we'd start with a tour of our primary systems. First stop, Engineering.
i.stack.imgur.com/ra6tc.jpg
I'd trust Paris over Neelix. One thing we KNOW is that at the time it is one of the most maneuverable ships that starfleet has. They sent it into the badlands specifically because of that.
and we talk about this bit in detail
Well I bet 500 quatloos on Neelix. Fight!
LMAO!
Shame on you Voyager writers. Shame.
it's called a god damn Show Bible. Use. It.
I think Voyager was designed for the ability to endure harsh space and unknown. As it was designed for long range space missions, the armor is thicker than others and had better Shields and phasers. But it is bulkier and had more luxuries than warships of the time (before Prometheus).
Starfleet ships are built with multi role in mind. In peacetime they do the usual exploration, but if a tactical situation arises they are more than capable of doubling as a warship. This is why in any battle scene, especially in DS9 you see all different types of ships engaging in combat. But I suppose it can't hurt to have a couple of Defiant type warships around just in case.
Science is arguable the federation most powerful weapon, on many many occasions it the Federation out sciencing their foes that won the day.
I saw Voyager as a science vessel with teeth and technology to make their weapons and shields more effective. I personally agree with the idea of a "post dominion war" star fleet where they got their heads out of their rear ends and started putting more firepower, shields and tech on all of their ships. Voyager was as I see it the first mishmash of the new star fleet ships. I really think of Voyager as Star Fleet's Seaquest. It might be a science vessel but it was still not something to mess with. But Voyager did take a hell of a lot of beatings, but ya know I don't see it as a war ship, but it has some war ship tech.
The Intrepid Class is more of a long-range explorer than a science ship, the same type of ship as the Galaxy Class. They aren't even built with an Astrometrics lab.
WaybackTECH except that both the Intrepid class as a whole and Voyager specifically *pre-date* the Dominion War. The war doesn't start until season 5 or 6 of DS9 while Voyager premiered during season 3 or 4.
Duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin I'm familiar with the site, but it's a fan site and so the numbers are somewhat arbitrary.
Duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin on the other hand, Voyager suffered *significant* damage on several occasions *and* didn't have access to proper repair and maintenance facilities. Its *really* hard to even guess how strong it *actually* is.
Duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin yeah, one episode it is weaker than a Kazon ship, a few seasons later Voyager can (and regularly does) go head-to-head with a Borg cube, something even the mighty Enterprise-E can't. The writing was all over the place regarding its combat strength, and after a while you get tired of trying to explain it as anything *other* than sloppy, inconsistent writing.
Erg.....Lore Reloaded.....
It's a matter of perspective, if you'll forgive the accidental Trek reference. Uhm. From a British perspective (according to some of us) it is a warship because it is armed. If a ship has weapons, it is a warship. An American or Canadian perspective would probably be combination, multipurpose vessel and most Starfleet ships are defined as "multipurpose" which makes a lot of sense in space where you're the only ship around for light years. There are cultural reasons for why this difference of perspective exists, which I won't get into today. in the context of Star Trek, I think I'd have to agree with the 50/50 idea, multipurpose. Or Walk Softly And Carry a Big Stick.
"It doesn't have a whack load of shuttles..."
You sure? Voyage pulled out a new shuttle almost every week.
Here is the thing. At the start of TNG, you say it is a time of unprecidented peace. Yet it is designed with a battle bridge and saucer separation. As we see right off the bat, in the pilot. Some how, I don't think the designers are as naive, as implied. At least not all of them. Now sending civilians and families into space, isn't very smart. Just from the dangers of space, without taking into account aggression.
Come on guys, you know good and well the only reason Ross took the Bellerophon to Romulus is because he had access to the Voyager sound stage.
Well...It's about time.... *NOW Let's put together a Trek High Council*
-Intrepid is never described as a Science ship NEVER
-It's not a specialist ship. It doesn't do ONE THING really well
-It was definitely design with combat in mind
-LORE RELOADED IS CORRECT...Intrepid is 50/50
-LORE RELOADED IS CORRECT...I have projected two Intrepids could dismantle a Galaxy Claas. (not easily)
-Stewart is wrong. Intrepid doesn't have 2 warp cores. It has only the primary and a spare.
-Stewart is wrong. Intrepid is long term explorer. It is larger than the Constitution BY FAR which has more than 2 1/2 times Intrepids crew.
Good Team Up..
NEXT TIME ADD SPACEDOCK & Lore Reloaded!!!
Along the lines of Conner’s comment about technical advancement, look at aviation in the 1920s
Look at the Lockheed Vega, single engine passenger plane of the 1920s.
Max speed of 185 mph
Max altitude 25,000 feet
Range 725 miles
And it could carry 1 pilot and 6 passengers, all in one engine.
Compare that to the Sopwith Camel, a plane that was considered to be one of the deadliest fighters of World War 1.
Max speed 113mph
Max altitude 19,000 feet
Max range 300 miles.
You are comparing a minivan to a formula 1 car, and in 10 years, the minivan wins in every category.
So, yeah, just because everything is better doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily made with martial intent.
"Your ship's gonna get infected with something that's just stupid."
Not as stupid as the fact that it was eventually infected by CHEESE
Most of the Main Federation Space Ships in Trek are 50 / 50 Combat & Science or Diplomacy. Starfleet is like a combination Police + Cost Guard + Navy + Fire fighters + Field Medics + Scientists all rolled together. Once you build a Very fast and very powerful multi-functional ship you can use for anything you like.
You really have no idea what capital letters are for, do you?
I always saw the Intrepid class as Star Fleets Arleigh Burke class destoryer
Or a Royal Navy type 23 or type 22
Nah it's more of a lcs I think the sovereign would be more like the burke
I think of the Defiant class as starfleets Burke destroyers. Intrepid as a light cruiser and the Soverign as the battleships of old.
Dude, that’s exactly how I see it!
I always wondered why didn’t Starfleet produce more Intrepids around the Dominion War period.
I dunno; there's just something about Lore's attitude or demeanor. It's got a funk to it that just rubs me the wrong way. Regardless, I totally respect the dude and follow his channel, but nevertheless...
Brett Cooper I get the impression he doesn't believe much of what he's saying, much of it is him trying to get reaction, he's treading a fine line between opinion and trolling.
I think it's a common problem for UA-cam presenters that they fear that if they 'change their tune' too much they will lose their audience. If you get famous for being energetic and positive, you daren't say something sucks, and if you get popular for being cynical then nobody wants to see you be optimistic. Jim Sterling is always who pops to my mind, he used to make some very enthusiastic videos about games he liked but people like watching him play rubbish more. I like Trekyards and Lore Reloaded, although I wish they'd run a lap or something to wake up before filming.
"Borg killing ship" is a misunderstanding of its function. The defiant class was never meant to one vs one a Borg Cube, it was meant to operate as part of a fleet of Defiant class that would be able to out damage a Cube's ability to self repair. The design inspiration is a swarm of bees taking down a bear. Voyager's writing was a contradiction from the very beginning. Remember that it's mission profile was exploration but it was assigned the mission of hunting down a Marquis ship, a mission you would expect to be assigned to a patrol ship such as the Saber class, for example. As for the discussion at large, I am positive that one of the early episodes of Voyager, the pilot perhaps, describes it as a SHORT range survey vessel. At the end of the day it's unsurprising there is confusion over its classification. Voyager (series) suffered from inconsistent writing much more than any of the other TNG-era shows.
Also I don't like the idea of 50/50 combat/science. I think it is a more pragmatic approach. We are an organisation about peaceful exploration but we are not stupid and aren't going to leave our exploration ships undefended. The Defiant, Saber, Steamrunner and Norway in contrast were built for combat exclusively. Even a peaceful organisation needs to patrol its borders or respond to threats.
I remember in Star Trek Armada (1 or 2 or both) sending a formation of about 20 Defiants was pretty solid, but they didn't last long. I used to use them to mob the enemy defences before my big cruisers flew in.
It can be used as a warship or as a long Range Exporation ship
My takeaway from this is that the majority of Starfleet ships are built with the dual roles of exploration and defence in pretty equal measure but that there are always outliers that are focussed more one way than the other; Oberth and Nova for low threat science missions, and Defiant and Prometheus for primarily tactical missions.
I did like the idea you discussed that the 80 years of peace between The Undiscovered Country and TNG had affected Starfleet’s policy leading to designs like the Galaxy class with families on board, but even the Galaxy was designed with combat in mind with saucer separation now a tactical manoeuvre designed to protect the families while the star drive section with its “Battle Bridge” becomes a more mobile combat platform.
At the start of the discussion when Lore was describing the Intrepid class as a Dominion Cold War era ship I was racking my brains to figure out when the destruction of the Odyssey occurred relative to the design and construction of the Intrepid so I’m glad you covered that. It strikes me that it’s more likely that any increase in tactical capability of Starfleet designs in general might be due more to the reappearance of the Romulans in 2364 and their subsequent activities over the next six years prior to the creation of the Intrepid.
Anyway great discussion guys, looking forward to more like this in the future!
Love this video! Trekyards vs Lore Reloaded!! Epic discussion!
That is debatable. Admiral's flag ship in Domion war. If any one recalls where Kim's clairinet playing his is disturbing the next door neighbor . Wonders about lack of insulation between billets. Paris replies ship was built for combat
Ah, so that's where Paris' reference came from! :-)
I see federation ships as multipurpose. They have peacetime roles and wartime roles. In peacetime, voyager is configured as a science/exploratory craft. In wartime, it serves as a heavy frigate, maybe a fast destroyer. I say this with the Galaxy class as a mobile starbase (diplomacy, science, evacuation, etc) during peacetime and a form of battleship during wartime and the nova class as a short range exploratory craft during peace, and a corvette serving as a picket ship, during wartime.
The Federation lies about it ships. They are supposed to be humanitarian fleet and yet they build warships under the titles of science and escorts. Benjamin Sisko even admits this DS9. I quote " officially the defined is an escort ship unofficially she's a warship."
A lot of the ships the fleet fields are warships that double as mobile science facilities. They're very much multi-mission spec'd, but it's obvious that this is a fleet kept up to date for war.
They are just doing what every militarized fleet does. Reminds me of the interwar period, when basically everyone made bigger and bigger warships but officially classified them as smaller tiers.
"Shhh guis there's no battleships here, please go away."
But seriously, I wonder how the public thinks of this in universe. Do they know that Starfleet is multi-mission as both the science arm AND military arm combined, or are they given drivel that 'oh no guis, it's all for science and stuff!'
Matthew Fritz defiant and Prometheus are probably the best canonical examples of something that appears to CLEARLY be meant for battle. Multi-vector assault mode (Prometheus) just SOUNDS aggressive and a web site pointed out that much of its full weapons capability is hidden when the three sections are docked. Makes you wonder if Starfleet was trying to increase its combat firepower without APPEARING to be militaristic.
Gay Champagne Socialist except that the TNG-era Starfleet was coming off a prolonged period of peace and was depicted several times as not really ready for a sustained war. If I remember correctly, between that and the Dominion weapons being able to bypass Starfleet's shields, the Federation got its butt kicked pretty hard in the early stages of the Dominion War.
If the Federation really WAS thinking about combat preparedness, they probably don't rely SO heavily on aging designs like the Miranda and Excelsior classes. It would be equivalent to the US mitary's arsenal consisting mainly of WWII or Vietnam-era equipment, an ABSURD notion for a PROPER military.
Say for instance, a ship takes 5+ years to design and build, then the Intrepid-class was thought of way way before Federation even set foot on DS9. When new designs where needed, they may have been added during the construction process, like the engines, which came after the TNG episode "Force of Nature" to circumvent the whole Warp 5 restriction.
It seem to me the Federation use the Intrepid class, certainly Voyager and probably the intrepid itself as test bed for numerous technologies, like the new warp core, the Tricobalt torpedoes. Several new types of shields.
That concept of a 5 year design phase would line up with the first encounters with the Romulans after the long silence. Maybe they built that ship with the idea in mind of facing a Warbird without any support. Like how the Constitution Class had to take on some Klingon heavy cruisers.
i think the term you guys are looking for is not "warship" but "tactical". personally i think Voyager is a far superior tactical ship then ships of the the pre-Borg threat. so with that said, i think the intrepid could go toe to toe with a galaxy class. we saw voyager fight Borg cubes (endgame not included). Alot of cannon states that after the Borg altercations such as Enterprise's initial encounter with Q at star date 2365, Battle of Wolf 357 at star date 2367, it changed the way star fleet went about designing their ships adding alot more tactical features. In VOY "relativity" S5-E24 you can see Voyager in dock star date 2370 with an Akira class being built. The Borg made starfleet into a more fighting posture of ship designs. Intrepid class has 14x type 10 phasers alone.... Defiant class, Akira class, promethium class, all post Borg, all with much added tactical ability with a sleeker look designed for making targeting harder.. Voyager (intrepid class) is a long range exploratory ship. that's why it has a spare warp core.
TBH, if I am exploring the galaxy I would want some way to defend my ship and crew with newest and maximum available power developed. Explorer ship that will kick your butt if you aren't nice... just sayin' :P
If you want to go by lore... it's as simple as the fact they had to specifically call a variant, the Warship Voyager... to suggest the original version is NOT a Warship... at least not by default. Technically anything can be turned into a Warship, but it's original purpose was to be a Science/Exploratory vessel that happens to be able to handle itself in battle well
Voyager is a Science Ship... Janeway is just freaking insane. I mean, she used more Torpedos than exist on her ship... and weaponising the Warp Core. I think B'lanna even starts asking if "Captain, do you intend to also eject this Warp Core as well, or can I expect to use it for my job?"
I'm fairly certain Janeway could have a skiff shuttle destroy entire armies, nations and peoples. Especially if they are keeping her from her Coffee.
It was a long range research vessel to explore the GAMMA quadrant
With ENT, DSC, TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY the federation always had to do some type of combat in the beginning ENT Archer said that they were explorers, he had an argument with another captain about arming Enterprise and with the Xindi he wished he'd listened and that they could have used those weapons. Archer was instrumental in arming star fleet ships more. with that ships were more often than not built with exploration first combat second. the Defiant was the one of the first to divert from that as it was classified as an Escort in public and the truth was it was made to take on the Borg and combat first then exploration second as we've seen in episodes it did both. I think that in the question on Voyager it's a deep space science ship with dangerous anomalies in mind and combat second.
In my opinion it's a long term tactical exploration vessel. They designed the Intrepid-Class after the events of WOLF359 and the Cardassian border war. So it had to be capable to defend it self on its own. So it's not a warship like the Defiant because it's primary purpose was exploration.
The Voyager is obviously a ship built for the wrong war... Starfleet expected the Borg, Starfleet got the Dominion... An advanced and easily-adapted ship that happened to be very beneficial for the one ship of the class to get tossed into Borg territory, of course, but not so much good for when you need to construct ships by the thousand to fight a war of attrition where advanced just means dumping more resources into a ship that's probably gonna get destroyed in it's first battle via getting rammed by the enemy.
Voyager seemed like it was built to be a counterpart to the Defiant. The Defiant was raw power while the Intrepid class was more the precision scalpel. Have a wing of Defiants hammer away at the enemy while the advanced Intrepid sensors pick apart the battle data for weaknesses and strike targets of opportunity for maximum damage. Perfect if the opponent is a big lone target like a Borg Cube, but somewhat useless vs a fleet of small mass-produced ships filled with clones with no regard for their lives.
I’ve always lent towards the Intrepid as a Cruiser, which are more general purpose ships. From what we see of Voyager & Bellerophon, it fits: independent operations (both tactical & peaceful), flotilla lead, sensor & physical scouting, blockade running, escort missions & fleet actions. Which are the roles of the traditional naval cruiser.
Plus the term ‘Cruiser’ would probably be politically acceptable as it is a familiar one but nice & vague, so the designers could make it a potent combat ship while still including the necessary science & research facilities.
I think the comparison with the Constitution hits the nail on the head, they probably are comparable in their roles & I’ve seen the Constitution described as a Cruiser as well.
Starfleet used to be a Nasa like organszation until United Earth, Vulcan, Andorians and Tellarites formed the Federation and the MACOs got fused with Starfleet. Starfleet then became the army of the Federation, although Federation upholded peaceful exploration, it still had the job to protect the Federation against threats if needed. From that point on Starfleet vessels were designed as exploratory ships with defensives capabilities, with the addition of specialized science vessels for additional exploration.
As for Intrepid class, the Intrepid prototype was around during TNG time in the late seasons. It was created just after the Federation met the Borg thx to Q, just as much as the Defiant was created. These two classes and those which followed were the two branches of the same program. Intrepids were meant to eventually defeat or at least defend against Borg ships in conjunction with Defiants, but the Defiants were the full tactical branch with spartan type of crew facilities whereas the Intrepid was more of a revision of the standard Starfleet exploration ship with more tricks up its sleeve, not only in weaponry.
Intrepid class was then the new standard from which was developed every other type of balanced Starfleet vessels, along with Sovereign class. The ship is designed to go fast, perhaps not for a very long term mission, but its crew facilities are immense for that little of a crew, they can live quite confortably for a while compared to the Connie 430 crew members in a smaller vessel...
And BTW, a ship is very modular in itself, it can be fitted with what it is necessary. A Galaxy is as much a leisure cruise ship with families as it can be a full grown battleship if fitted correctly. Just compare hpw the Enterprise can be different in its operations when Jellicoes takes command during the Chain of Command two parter episode.
To the Belerophone at Romulus topic: I don't think that qualifies as statement for it's tactical superiority. I think it was chosen because it was less a threat than a Galaxy-Class vessel. The Romulans are very suspicious about the Federation and Starfleet and Starfleet needs the Romulans as alliies during the war. So they would do everything to do not provoke them. So it would make sense to choose a ship that isn't a major threat but can get the delegates to savety as fast as possible. So I would say they've choosen the Intrepid because of it's speed rather than it's "strength" in battle. That also verifies the fact the this class is not a warship.
It's a science ship with a sprinkling of battle ship - it's designed for long term exploration (which worked out well for USS Voyager eh). I'm assuming due to the ship size that normal operations (that is not being lost deep in the Delta quadrant) it would likely be operating out of range of direct assistance. Hence it has weapon systems and defense systems that are a bit beyond sufficient for sustained defense on it's own if called upon. Would that classify it as a warship - I'm sure some species sure would think that. But one would think that a long term science ship would have had a wack load more shuttles on it for conducting large scale away missions...
The military component was likely pushed due to the recent encounters with Lore's Borg Cell.
(I'm literally listening to your points against this as I'm writing this)
But it was intended to be able to 'hold out' against a Borg ship a bit longer than other ships, in order get word about the Borg out sooner. It was probably supposed to fight the Borg as a part of a fleet and not single handily.
Just my two credits: I always saw the Intrepid as a scout vessel. Fast and manuverable, with great sensors. In peacetime, it would have a primary mission of covering large areas of space collecting survey data. In wartime, it would do the same thing with military data and possibly serve as a picket ship in large actions. I recall reading somewhere that the Cardassians had tended toward fast, small-ship raids during their decades long conflict with the Federation and the Klingons also favored this tactic, so there's a definite niche for a fast, relatively lightly armed combatant in Starfleet.
At all times it would be an excellent first-responder, getting there fast to assess crisis and get some kind of response going.
Side note: I used to run an online roleplaying group based around one and on one mission we responded to a planet that had been devastated by an attack from a neighbor (both non-Federation border worlds). We got there first and then, when other starships had arrived to cover us, landed the ship to connect it to the capitol city's grid and provide emergency power until the local plants could be brought back online.
Trek Nerd Canon lore tri-brain meltdown.
It's life Captain, but not as we know it.
Thanks for this.
If I have to classify the inteprid class, pound for pound, class for class on a 24th century scale, the intrepid class is the constitution class of the 24th century.
The Intrepid was designed and built with Tactical Missions in mind. While it was not built in a post Dominion War mind set it does feel like Starfleet was poking their head out of their pacifist butts when they designed it.
I wonder if the Bio-Neural gel packs, which seriously need to come with an integrated immune system, improved the response times of the ship's systems, be they conn or tactical related, to the point that in engagements the ship had a critical edge?
interesting idea...
however, i think they should have stuck to the idea that with its incredible speed, Voyager could and would outrun more heavily armed opponents. they could have made that a recurring thing, something which could have saved their lives many times in the series.
instead they somehow got to the point where not only is it fast, it also is armed to the teeth.
sure, the simulation on that world 700 years in the future was exaggerated, but it was based on a kernel of truth. for a ship of its size, Voyager was very well armed.
The intrepid class is simply an exploration starship with state of the art technology designed to function away from the support of Starfleet for years at a time if needs be. As a result the intrepid class boasts an impressive amount of armaments as standard given it's expected (eventually with the perils of exploration) to have to endure combat against multiple assailants without support from other federation starships.
The intrepid class is the state of the art lone wolf starship in essence oftentimes functioning beyond the known frontiers of federation space to seek out new life and new civilizations and to continue to bold go where no man...no one has gone before.
Voyager almost filled the heavy freigate role replacing tye mirenda class more the light crusier replacing a tng ds9 voy era constitutuin class. 2374 or 2375 added borg tech and astrometrics lab.
Paris tells Kim that the ship was built for combat performance. It is right in the episode. So it is cannon. Not a long range vessel more of a patrol vessel.
Fun fact the NX-01's mess Hall is a redressed Voyager lounge.
lore reloaded, is so problematic.... such a ranty goon....
Also, there’s the episode of TNG “Conundrum.” When everyone hears the weapons load out of the Ent-D they immediately assume it’s a battleship.
I've always maintained that Starfleet vessels while not specifically built for war are extremely versatile. More so than the ships of other navies. As a result, an exploratory/science vessel like the Intrepid class can slug it out with enemy warships and have a good chance of winning.
Samuel took the words right out of my mouth, "it's a TOS Connie of the modern day."
Starfleet ships all have phasers of the day, typically type ten collimator rings, and twin photon launchers. Any tube can fire the shell of choice. Imagine our ships of today's navy, all armed with the same weapons, there would be little point in class or role. A galaxy class, an intrepid, a nova, they all have the same weapons. As for warship, no. If we sent the Queen Mary into deep space we would give it the ability to defend itself from asteroids, collision items, radiation and other natural phenomena, so without war or conflict the standard weapons fit and shields would be equipped. This applies to science and other Starfleet roles. Numbers of phaser just covers arcs of fire. No ship has ten phaser emitters it can bring to bare, it's simply to cover all areas of the warship design.
To be fair to Voyager, the Intrepid class was probably designed in order to withstand some violence. Let's not forget that starship design would have been heavily influenced by the insanity that was Wolf 359. The Federation could no longer afford to make Oberths.
It's a scientific exploratory vessel with a concealed carry permit.
Voyager was not a war ship but rather a "Special Ops" Vessel. It was deployed to have a "special" existence during the Dominion War and when we are introduced to it in Episode 1 it was chasing down the Maquis. This is where I get the understanding that it was initially created to be fast, able to smack down if required but in no way was it a research vessel or a war ship. Its shields strength and lack or extensive armament speaks to not being a war ship and its small size allowed for fast missions with specialized crew. Thoughts? #HeruVision
I've always thought of Star Fleet ships in general to be scientific exploratory vessels with a concealed carry permit.
I really liked this episode of Trekyards. I'd like to see more debates like this with Lore Reloaded. Good work fellas. Cheers!
Short term science vessel but could be utilised as a effective war time ship
Wrong. Voyager is not a warship by Starfleet design. Commander C. is absolutely correct. A warship would require you to sacrifice exploratory features exchange of tactical features. Voyager had recources for holodecks, bio neural circuitry, advanced sensors and was known for its high speed warp core. It's small to explore narrow spaces/crevasses. Cannon clearly states that it carries only 38 photons and no quantum torpedoes ever seen(a very small inventory of photon torpedoes). In the Dominion War you see hundreds of other ships with no Intrepid Class. The only time you see one is the Belleraphon, and that was used on a diplomatic mission since it was fast because it could outrun slower Dderidex Warbirds in case of an emergency and the Starfleet delegation had to escape Romulus. The few instances Voyager has to Modify it's Defensive systems for combat, those were under extreme circumstances during the TV series. The correct answer is that Voyager is 70% exploratory that is versatile/customizable. Starfleet Command has never been seen to utilize the Intrepid Class in clear combat missions throughout cannon.
If this Lore Reloded guy shows up again, I'm going to tune out. He just seems to be making these rediculous topics to take up facetime. Why even call this a debate? Trek Yards can get higher quality people.
I remember how after the pilot I thought they had no photon torpedoes at all.
I thought them using those tricobalt charges to destroy the array was them improvising a substitute...
This is going to be a long one since I was writing it as I was listening. Which also means that the tone may change over the course of the post.
Pre-Video Opinion:
The _Intrepid_ class is not a warship, she’s a long range light exploration/science ship built primarily for speed. Her primary defensive asset is speed and in terms of combat performance she’s below the curve for a ship of her size and century with comparatively weak shields. However, she is strong enough that she can easily disable or destroy a battlecruiser from a century earlier.
Plus during the Dominion War, Starfleet sent one of the few _Intrepid_ class starships we see outside of _Voyager_ (USS _Bellorophan_ ) on a purely diplomatic mission. At most, she’s a multirole vessel like all almost all of the other ships in Starfleet and the similarly sized _Constitution_ class of a century earlier.
During the video:
The _Phoenix_ didn’t have her shields in that fight. The Cardassians were given her prefix code to lower the shields. Additionally, that variant of the _Nebula_ class was outright stated as a scientific variant. This establishes that even Federation science ships can pack a punch.
The _Enterprise_ D took a massive beating from that D-12 type Bird of Prey. Judging from the time elapsed, shaking, and battle damage on the hull she took potentially dozens of torpedo and disruptor strikes from what appeared to be a cruiser variant of the Bird of Prey. Even then, it was more luck than pure strength that caused the D’s destruction.
“It became taboo again for the Federation to have warships”
That’s not what was described in her introduction. The project was canceled due to the lead ship having massive technical issues that resulted from shoving too large a reactor into too small a space frame, creating a stable warp field, etc on top of the fear of a follow-up attack from the Borg happening soon abating.
“Struck a deal for 50/50 warships and science ship”
So, multirole vessels like Starfleet had been building since their founding?
Also the Akira we have the best picture of, the _Thunderchild_ , has a registry lower than the USS _Galaxy_ that implies that she’s a design from the same or even previous era as the _Galaxy_ and not an anti-Borg ship like so many claim. That would also explain why there’s so many of them come DS9.
“The _Constitution_ was a battleship.”
I’ll let this slide since you admitted to not being familiar with military designations. In canon she’s refered to as both a battlecruiser and a heavy cruiser. Which, even knowing that it’s understandable to mistake a battlecruiser for battleship as the main difference is that a battlecruiser doesn’t have as strong of defenses as a battleship in order to use their engines to accelerate faster.
Heavy cruisers, however, also typically have weaker offensive capabilities when compared to both battlecruisers and battleships.
“E2 _Enterprise_”
Err, that was longer than 25 years. She was thrown back 117 years
``LORIAN: You can't take your ship into the subspace corridor. If you do, you'll be thrown back in time a hundred and seventeen years. ``
“The _Oberth_ “
Oh that’s an easy one. She was designed to operate within Federation borders and conduct even more detailed surveys of planets that had already been charted and explored by the frontline explorers.
_Voyager_ , in contrast, is a light cruiser/heavy destroyer weight vessel that’s supposed to go into mostly unexplored territory.
Also, I’d say that it’d make more sense to compare an _Oberth_ and a _Nova_ since the _Nova_ class is around the same size, has a similar amount of crew, and is also explicitly a short range survey ship. (Oh yeah, the Captain and Commander brought up the same points. Makes this part pointless.)
“Memory Alpha”
I’d take that site with a massive grain of salt, it’s still a publicly edited wiki and it has some major issues with people injecting headcanon, commentary, and misinformation. Like coming to the insane conclusion that the TOS era has cobalt bombs and that said bombs are sub kiloton even though in the hyperlink they include it outright says that cobalt bombs are a form of salted nuke that uses a relatively high yield warhead. It also concludes that an “ounce” of antimatter is weight instead of volume even though the explosion is far larger than what an ounce (weight in standard gravity) of matter and antimatter annihilating can produce.
“Trust, but verify”
Words to live by. Especially online.
Post Video:
Well I’ve definitely changed my mind a little, I’m now convinced that she’s a medium duration multirole explorer/science ship. She’s akin to a combination of a modern research vessel and the explorers of old. Just enough for self defense while operating away from the support of the rest of the fleet. However unlike the _Galaxy_ class, she needs to return to dock far more often.
I say medium duration because the short range survey ships like the _Nova_ had mission lengths measured in months and the _Galaxy_ class was sent on 7 year missions. _Voyager_ on the other hand? A few episodes early on state that she has a mission duration of 3 years usually.
Although the comments about the ship size did remind me of a theory that would explain any inconsistencies with DSC designs and later designs. The theory being that Starfleet designs regularly go through cycles where they expand in order to improve capabilities and then shrink back down as the technology is refined.
NOTE: Also written pre-video
Also, can someone give me the a good description of Lore Reloaded’s work? His stuff keeps getting recommended to me and it all I see is clickbait titles that seem to be tailor made to piss people off or imply that it uses a significant amount of noncanon material. Like calling the NX class “Humanity’s failure” even though she performed above and beyond the call of duty on multiple occasions, calling the _Galaxy_ class an ‘apartment in space’ despite all of that class’s accomplishments, or refering to the _Defiant_ a “pimp hand”.
The latter I only take umbrage with because it’s SFDebris’ joke and while I enjoy his material, a good chunk of his fanbase seems to treat his opinion as the unassailable truth of an almighty being despite the number of disclaimers he puts in his videos about it being both comedy and incredibly biased (even admitting in a Doctor Who video that he gives Trek stuff a _much_ harder time than other long running series).
I’d really like to know if it’s like EC Henry where it’s great videos, but crappy titles or if it’s like FilmTheory’s Star Trek episode where it was as bad or worse than I expected from the title.
I'm quite aware of the US Navy's system.
```I emphasize might since there's no evidence to suggest one way or the other that Starfleet follows this practice.```
Well the _Excelsior_ , _Miranda_ , and _Oberth_ classes with their incredibly wide range of registry numbers make it highly unlikely that hull number is related to class type.
Now I have heard an alternate theories that hull number is closer related to how trains used to be registered meaning that the number by the 24th century indicates route they're supposed to patrol, or that the part of the number indicated the construction yard or time period built.
Personally I find those explanations a bit too complicated. I prefer the theory that more than just ships of the line get NCC numbers and that every FTL capable vessel operated by Starfleet capable of independent operation for some unknown period of time gets one.
This would neatly explain the sudden jump in registry numbers (1) and is supported by the fact that the _Danube_ runabouts and the supply ship USS _Lantree_ both having NCC registries. Prototype ships (NX) would also count toward that total.
It's the simplest explanation that doesn't result in an incredibly large, but technically possible, Starfleet. Since in the 24th century since even ships with only four digit registries are still active which if the NCC did only refer to the main fleet...
(1) Standard could have been changed or they switched to that system by the 24th century from a more straight forward one previously
The short answer is yes! It’s one of the new designs to battle the borg.
Intrepid was equipped with the best tactical systems available at the time for it's size, as are most ships in star fleet.
But that doesn't necessarily make them war ships.
The Defiant was clearly designed for combat, not a lot of living space, small crew with little in the war of luxury, they literately crammed in everything they could at the expense of living space and unnecessarily systems, that right there is the definition of a war ship.
So was the intrepid a war ship? lets see, huge spacious living quarters, multiple holodecks, a bar, fully equipped and state of the art medical facilities, advanced sensors and a large shuttle bay. I would call that an emphatic no, it's not a war ship.
I like some of Lore's videos, but his conclusions sometimes leave me a bit confused.
You could argue that Starfleet don't fit the best tactical systems they have at the time to their ships. In paradise lost, the Lakota weapons were far more powerful than other excelsior class vessels having been specially upgraded. That took the defiant by surprise.
It's a pre-soveregin experimental class ship.
Did you watch that Warship intrepid episode?
I like that you had a guest on that you didn't necessarily agree with on some things, but you still kept it respectable-- great discussion.
Voyager is an Intrepid Class -- a ship explicitly designed with the idea of fighting the Borg in mind.
Templarfreak No it wasn’t, that was the Defiant
I with most of everyone else that "long range" is right out. I'm not even sure I can agree that it is a science vessel at heart. I see Voyager as a blockade runner, not combat per se, holding its own through its maneuverability rather than a head-to-head slugfest. You send it to Romulus because, in an emergency, that's the ship that will be best able to make it back out. The Defiant's role in the Sacrifice of Angels battle is probably the ideal mission profile.
It's been years but your comment intrigues me. Would you consider the Intrepid Class Ship More akin to that of the Constitution class ship back in Kirk's Era? A ship that's intended to explore strange and dangerous locations with minimal assistance from starfleet? Maybe planned for a 5 year mission or something along those lines.
Younglings please do research before you make a video about anything Canon!
We-Got-Green__ Lightsabers yet Younglings? I’m gonna call Anakin!
oh my gosh my star trek gods all in one video
She's a light cruiser. Not designed for long term deep space exploration like an Excelsior, Galaxy or Nebula class, but was designed in a time where galactic conflict was flaring up and the Federation saw a need to equip their ships with more / heavier firepower. The Intrepid class has more range and can perform adequate scientific exploration more than a Nova class can, but it doesn't have the tactical capabilities of a Sovereign or Akira. It's somewhere in the middle.
Voyager's forst mission was basically a science tactial police boat.
Great to see Lore Reloaded getting to hobnob with Trekyards! I don't consider Intrepids to be warshipa because you don't put science labs and a compartment like stellar cartography on a "warship." I consider the Intrepid class a multi-purpose ship like the Galaxy class, just on a smaller and more economical scale. Instead of being designed for long trips, it was designed for shorter trips (but could go faster). The only role that the Galaxy class could fulfill that the Intrepids couldn't is large scale evacuation, because of the lack of space on the Intrepids. The Galaxy class was a line of armed Marriott convention centers while the Intrepid class is a line of armed Holiday Inn Expresses. In DS9, the Bellarophon was used as a diplomatic courier... it had a lot of observation lounges and lots of nice plants everywhere. In my own head canon, there weren't a lot of Intrepid class ships ultimately built due to the Dominion War... with Starfleet instead focusing on ships like the Akira, Steamrunner and Saber classes. We don't see a lot of the innovations of the Intrepid class in other vessels, like bio-neural circuitry and variable geometry warp nacelles. That tells me that the Intrepids were a kind of "flash in the pan"... a ship that represents the last gasps of the toxic pacifism of the TNG era that survived into the DS9 era because it was lost in space.
ITS not designed only to science as the equinox, neither a war ship as defiant
It's a scientific exploratory vessel with a concealed carry permit.
That was dark mirror 🪞 warships
A war ship, from my opinion, is a ship like a bird of pray or a carrier. Another example is the Ares class. Voyager do not fit into this categories.
Not sure any ship is purely a warship or science vessel, it's never been that way in canon. Even on DS9 we have the self described warship Defiant doing occasional scientific research in the Gamma Quadrant before and even during the war at one point IIRC. Speaking of which, a ship class that is really confusing are runabouts... Are they just shuttless on steroids or actual starships? You've probably already explored this somewhere, I'll search.
AAAHHHHH LORE RELOADED IN THE FLESH!!!!
All space ships are warships.
Are you guys familiar with Alvision100? /channel/UC9ZcltB5yJCV2BlOWzHrZLQ They got like a whole line of amazing ship designs.
I'd have shared in the fb group, but I am not on fb much these days.
It's not a warship. They just happened to travel through many sectors of space where Federation tech and training was superior
Gel Packs were a new technology and not thoroughly tested against chees. Things like this happens ;)
Civilians: Don't go out there looking for trouble, because it will come back and ASSIMILATE US.
Janeway: It's the STARFLEET WAY.
Voyager is a Long Range Exploration vessel, quickly fitted and crewed for a short military mission forced to engage in many military actions over a short period of time. It was also primarily crewed by essentially civilian rebels and ex-military all the time that we see it. It was also obviously retrofitted with facilities to build torpedoes and such. This accounts for a more military flavor for the most part as well as the resources being too few or too plentiful at various points in the series.
We also know that the Intrepid was a short run ship design. It was the first "perfected" Intrepid Class ship and it was rushed into completion, then shortly after the design was scrapped with few more being built after it. The Nova-class also came before the Intrepid class and shares many of its features. So what we can see here is that the Intrepid is essentially a Nova Class redesigned for Long range missions with new technologies, like the phase shielding and the new warping technique, both of which were introduced in TNG.
The NX-01 and Nova Class are the standards of what we should be comparing the Intrepid to as they give us the bases from which the Intrepid were based on. The NX-01 was designed as a Long Range Explorer. Nova was the precedent Short Range Explorer. The Oberth is a Science vessel. This is different from an Exploration vessel. They both do science, but they're not the same thing. Just like a Cruiser that explores is not the same thing as an Explorer that engages in cruiser type activities. So using the Oberth as a reference is just wrong.
So, given the NX-01 and Nova Class and Bellerophon as a guide... adding in the context we know of.
We can say that once Starfleet figured out that "oh the further out you go the more likely you need weapons" from the NX-01 we can see this principle at work from the Nova Class to the Intrepid. But what if you say it is still too highly equipped? Well, the simple fact is that, yes, Voyager was, because the Intrepid class had several elements that Starfleet needed for a mission. So they rushed it and upgraded certain aspects to be armed better than the specs called for. Why wouldn't you do that when you are sending a ship into a combat situation? So we have a ship that was well armed to begin with, especially with the knowledge of major threats being where this ship would be active, then given more arms to deal with the particular mission.
We then also have a more militarized crew that would have made more militaristic adjustments to the ship. Voyager was unique in this aspect as well vs the general Intrepid class. Voyager didn't have a full compliment of officers when launched and a majority of them were not science officers. They were not to be on Voyager for very long. Voyager was to do a short mission, return, and then recrew and relaunch. Why would you put lots of science officers on board a ship in Voyager's position?
Lastly, spoiler, Janeway knew that she faced a long term situation coming up and likely did what she could to arms Voyager as much as possible, beyond what the specs of the Intrepid class generally was.
So what we're left with is an Explorer vessel which is more of an all rounder ship rather than a Science ship or Cruiser or whatever else Starfleet has, but then heavily modified to be prepared for battle. So, the Intrepid class, I'd say, definitely doesn't qualify, but Voyager it wouldn't be right to call it a warship in the fact that its purpose in its arms was not to make war, but to be defensive. But then, it clearly was also modified to make war on the Maquis, but calling something that was modified to fit a temporary purpose as if it was it's primary purpose is a bit wrong to me. And that's before we get into the modifications after launch. By the end of s7 of Voyager I think it is fair to call voyager as a Federation-Borg Explorer-Escort? Hybrid Warship, but at the beginning I'd say that it isn't. It's just a Federation Long Range Explorer-Escort? Hybrid, where as the Intrepid without modifications is likely a Explorer full stop. (Borg tech makes the Long Range part of the Intrepid wrong. It is clearly long range still for the Federation, but Short Range for the Bord so it cancels out ^.^)
Tom Paris made a remark to Harry Kim that Voyager was built for combat, not musical performance... this could suggest the ship is on average more capable in space fights than other ships, but not a warship.
From what we've seen, the Intrepid class exhibits signs that its a downsized Galaxy class. Same technology and overall capabilities in terms of firepower and shield strength... just in a smaller overall package.
Not a warship... but when you think about it, SF ships are designed to be combat capable... hence the omni directional phaser strip coverage, etc.
The Defiant was unofficially classified as a warship, but to be fair, the only thing that made that ship special was the fact SF designed it from the get go to be overpowered.
Nothing says that SF cannot do the same to any other ship.
If you recall, the Defiant managed to double the phaser output by doing a modification on one of its internal systems (something which I'm pretty certain can be done on other Federation ships).
Now, the only discrepancy I can think of is that Voyager had 36 photon torpedoes initially, but we have no reason to think the Intrepid class only has that many as standard. If you recall, Voyager was supposed to be away for 2 weeks only (to retrieve the Maqui)... hence, it probably wasn't deemed necessary to outfit it with more than 36 torpedoes... and it already had capable primary weapons (phasers)... so SF probably figured it would give the ship more torpedoes when its ready to head out on a deep space mission... which of course happened ahead of schedule... but the crew seemed to have found a way to make new torpedoes along their journey (and why wouldn't they?).
I see Voyager as a technology demonstrator built around a mid-range Science vessel. She has a lot of science and astrogation labs, especially given her size. She also has a lot of newer technology that is really in Beta test. Neural gel packs, variable geometry warp nacelles. Presumably the variable geometry nacelles let her travel faster than other ships without damaging subspace (TNG:Force of Nature)
When the enemy is at the gates, you want Sovereigns and Akiras in your battle line, not Intrepids. In time of war, she's far more suited to special ops missions (infil, exfil, deep surgical strike)
I think that once they introduced the USS Equinox (a Nova-class science vessel, designed for short-term planetary research missions) , there was a need to reclassify the Intrepid as "something else" . Even if that hypothesis is wrong ... -- it leads to the question ... in the Nova class the new Oberth ? :)
Just to pick up on one side topic mentioned... In regards to the Galaxy Class starship shouldn't have families on them, I disagree. I do agree, you're taking your family with you into the unknown of the universe, but the ship was built to house them and protect them. And given that the ship could be away for Earth for years, I think having your family with you, instead of a long distance relationship with them, is better.
I think the borg changed starfleet mentality. Look at ships afterwards. Defiant akira steamrunner saber. And arguably intrepid. Built with high combat capability. I cant see how steamrunner or sabre could be argued as anything but for war. Starfleet started getting affraid. Borg were terrifing.
The Intrepid class starship Voyager, like the Defiant, was built post Wolf 359 as a tactically capable ship, and could act as a science vessel or a scout, or cruiser. Originally meant to 'chase the Maquis', the ship was an improvement over larger vessels for scouting and other missions. So yes, as as an escort destroyer, it could have been modified for war.
I want everyone to think of how many missions there were in STO, where the captain of the ship you need to resque says, "We're just a science vessel! We can't take on these [fill in the blank] on our own." lol. First, just consider how condescending that is to anyone who chose a Science officer as their captain.
Anyway, the writing and dialogue of these missions (and I can remember at least a few episodes of Trek) seem to suggest that a vessel designed and outfitted for science, would not have much more in defenses than a civilian freighter. Keep in mind, the mission that Voyager was given on it's maiden "Voyage" wink wink, was actually to try and extract a federation agent from an undercover assignment among hostile terrorists. Yes they were pretty pathetic terrorists, to be honest, but it was still a hostile situation. Not to mention, that going anywhere near Carasian space, even during peace, is an extremely risky endeavor. Easily as risky as hanging around near the Romulan neutral zone. I mean she wasn't supposed to be exploring anything when she was launched (yet), let alone explore the delta quadrant.
To answer Lore's question that stumped Commander British Mullet. The Intrepid is active by 2370, and Voyager is active by 2371, While the Dominion destroy the Odyssey in "Late 2370"
Let’s try this............the Borg at wolf 359! Starfleet starts designing ships for war AND ships that can be easily converted from science ship to warship if necessary.
Not a tactic starfleet likes, but necessity mother of invention and all that.
That’s just my opinion your results may vary.
Plus I remember a battle in the voy episode “dragons teeth” voyager if fleeing the planet from the voduuar (yes I probably spelled it wrong),
Voyager had phasers EVERYWHERE ! Can’t tell me starfleet don’t make ships that can kick butt.
Design to commissioning to launch is not a quick process and can take a //long// time. Decades even. The 'Vibe' I get from Intrepid class vessels, then, is as follows.
- Original concept: Research and exploration duties. Long range, short duration. Improved combat efficacy due to Borg threat. (70/30)
- Conflict with Cardassians nudge combat systems to have an increased priority (60/40) *on the drawing board* .
- Skirmishing with Cardassians and Maquis nudge duty requirements to increased combat system priority (55/45) *post launch* .
As it was mentioned that (some of) you guys aren't sure (and I don't know if anyone has brought this up:
Ships start with Conceptualisation: a role is identified and the requirements for it listed as 'design elements'.
The Design stage then takes those 'elements' and combines them into several feasible vessels, on paper.
Commissioning of a ship is the ordering for construction (and registration thereof) of a particular Design.
Prototyping is the initial stage of Commissioning. Many similar designs may be Prototyped simultaneously to test efficacy of design. This may lead to some designs being altered, scrapped and/or re-purposed (NB: my favourite example of this would be the 1960's RAF's V-bombers: it's a really interesting story and I suggest you read up on it some time).
Production is the latter stage of Commissioning, where vessels of successful prototypes are ordered and registered.
Launching happens once the ship has been built. Ships are typically launched several times as part of testing.
Naming is sometimes done during Commissioning (either prototyping or production), but need not be. A naming ceremony will normally be completed during one of the launches, but again, this need not be final launch for...
Active Duty. Which, of course, is when the ship leaves dry dock and is transferred from Under Construction to an 'active' part of the fleet (though 'Active' can mean MONTHS in harbour, as much as sailing/flying around).
Very simple...budget constraints...TNG had to use the existing physical models...ie the Reliant the Excelsior and the Grissom...when cgi became a thing multiple star ships became viable.
How many Federation ships in Tos?
Canon would contradict the "build another warpcore" idea. There, if I recall correctly, at least two occasions where Voyager was at risk of losing it's warp core. The solution was NEVER, "well, we can build another", but rather, "There is no possible way we can lose this." As for the Intrepid-Class, I think the "50/50" seems accurate. I would not call it a warship... i'm not even entirely sure I would call the Defiant a "warship". But combat is definitely in the Intrepid's role. Look at Voyager's original missions was... they were going to track down the Maquis. That... was going to involve combat. The Intrepid, more so than most other ships, is a jack-of-all-trades ship.
To me a Warship is any starship with Bunk Beds and Shared Rooms for crew. A Exploratory starship can afford to have One Room JR Suites for all crew members. Another feature of a Warship is Specialized Crew that Support and Include a large number of Ground Troops, Assault Troops, Boarding Party's, Military Logistics, Large Medical Staff like with A Hospital Ship, Starfleet Marines (MACOS), Large number of Pilots for Ambulance's and Starfighter Wings. A Exploratory Starship will have fewer and more Generalized staff. A Explorer Starship would have a Chief Medical Officer but not a Chief Surgeon or Specialists like at a Starbase or Hospital Ships. Explorer Starships also would have an Internal Security team staffed by Starfleet Personnel rather than having Marines in charge on Internal Security like on Surface Warships and Aircraft Carriers. Explorer Starships would have more Science Labs and a more Civilian designed corridor's rather than Extra bunk beds for Troops or Pilots and practical designed corridor's . Given starfleet's mission, It has a focus on Exploration, Science and First Contact, but it does have a responsibility for defense of Federation worlds and settling Disputes among its citizens and for providing evacuation assistance and Medical assistance on Federation and other worlds. as such we see some overlap with Scout, Corvette, Destroyer, Frigate, and Cruiser classes, while focusing on Exploration they also perform duties as requested such as Law Enforcement, Peace keeping, supply delivery, Medical assist, emergency evacuation, light transport duties, treaty negociations, and civil disputes. Typically a Frigate or Destroyer class is permamently deployed to a Federation world to Protect it and to service its Solar System and neighboring worlds , federation or otherwise. they serve 3 month patrols then Swapped out. Smaller starships like corvettes, Scouts, might patrol for 1 Month at a time.
Yeah, it is a warship. Weapons, check. Also, according to some sources, the Inrepid-class is a Light Cruiser. Meaning it is a warship. The Constitution class is a Heavy Cruiser.
The Oberth is a science vessel, an old design space frame that keeps getting some updates, but is, and always was, meant for science or use as a test bed.But, ever since the NX01, all exploratory vessels have at least had the ability to defend themselves. They usually stop short of being 'warships'. I do believe that the Constitution WAS originally a 50+% 'warship', that it served as a literal cruiser and patrol ship is guarding Federation space and defending and checking up on colonies and outposts. Indeed, functions it never completely got away from.But, its post 'Cage' refit made it far more scientifically based. It didn't necessarily suffer a massive loss of defensive and offensive capabilities, increasing tech might have allowed it to equal and exceed its original design in those categories as well as to take on science. It was a big space frame that allowed for refits for changing roles.Likewise, the next generation big heavy cruiser, the Excelsior, might have been the last 50% science, 50% warship.Personally, I think of the Ambassador as being a behemoth when it rolled out. Clearly the heavy cruiser of its generation; but probably geared 70% science to 30% military. But that 30% was probably plenty.There is the Cardassian War, but I do believe that it was never remotely an existential threat, and that Starfleet was fighting only defensively with one arm behind its back. But they did take note that the Ambassador was aging and wasn't the overwhelming boss it used to be. Plus, they had intelligence of Romulan designs like the D'Deridex that clearly gave analysts pause.In my mind, the Galaxy, Nebula, and New Orleans classes WERE slightly more amped up a bit. Perhaps being better just for being newer tech, perhaps changing the balance a bit, but more tactically capable while still being at least 60% 'science'.If nothing else, the new 'wrap around' arc phaser strips on these classes suggests this, and the Galaxy had its 'multi torpedo spread' capability from just one forward launcher. It seems to be a means of increasing tactical capacity without looking provocative. Plus, the ease of saucer separation shows concern in that area as well; trying to balance--and greatly enhance--both roles at once, perhaps not completely succeeding in either?I believe I read somewhere that the Akira class was a 'concept ship' that was developed during the Cardassian War, but was never rolled out due to it being too much a warship. That it was the 'Defiant of the previous decade'. But, because the design and the prototype existed, it could be rolled out quickly with some updates when the Borg and Dominion threats came to pass.The Nova, Saber, Norway, Intrepid, and Sovereign classes all being designed with the Borg and combat in mind. Much more tactically intended, like a 60 to 70% tactical shift and only 30 to 40% exploratory purpose. The Nova just being a tiny science / scout ship has its limitations. Likewise, the Saber and Norway are meant to be nimble and hard to hit. The Intrepid being a multipurpose vessel, a lot of those purposes revolving around tactical issues. It's fast, it can land , its science such as scanning and cartography can be used towards intelligence gathering. It was being tested against the Marquis in an anti insurgency role.The Sovereign was clearly meant to be the new heavy cruiser. Smaller than the Galaxy, but much more tactically minded in speed, nimbleness, defense and offense.The Defiant class itself being a pure warship, meant to be a 'Borg killer' only by being small, tough, extremely nimble, and packing a ton of firepower for its modest size. The idea, I suspect, that task forces of several Defiant class ships would join a larger task force in fighting a Borg cube and avoid getting hit, getting caught by tractor beams, and punching into the cube.