AR15-Obsessed Dork Debunks Wendigoon's AR15 Video
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- I put together my response to Wendigoon's AR15 history video, which I believe gets a lot wrong - including it's central thesis.
TLDW, the Army did stall and obstruct the AR15's adoption, but they had good reasons to do so. DOD rushed the adoption of the rifle, and the had good reasons to do so. The rifle did have problems early on as all rifles do. However, these happenings do not support a narrative of "sabotage", and really don't even paint a cohesive picture of negligence.
I use the M16 Review Panel's report and The Black Rifle to break down the thesis, and show why the evidence Wendigoon presents for this thesis falls into one of two buckets: either misunderstanding the details to the point of being wrong, or being outright wrong.
Links to these documents: odysee.com/THE_BLACK_RIFLE_M1...
thecoltar15resource.com/repor...
Long story short, I felt compelled to make this response because I've spent enough time researching this stuff that I feel obliged to fight the spread of this sort of fuddlore misunderstanding of the AR15's history as much as possible. Hopefully, the video strikes you as going beyond simply nitpicking small details (I made that video too, it was four hours long,, you can watch it here: • The Rat Cut ), and instead feels like an address of the core misunderstanding found in Wendigoon's presentation.
A little more context/thoughts that didn't make it into the video are listed here: x.com/NaviGoBoom/status/18089...
Knowledge of the Autistic Rifle -15 is a spectrum
Very good, many such cases.
well that doesn't say much, thats saying its simple and unbelievably strong.
ua-cam.com/video/LSN1eUpOiTE/v-deo.htmlsi=UeL0xhcx5C0OEbgl
Just a small comment on the claim that people complaining about hitting guys and them getting back up isn’t just a story.
@@dorjedriftwood2731 _Can_ it happen? Sure.
Is it what happened most of the time? Very doubtful.
@@Tunkkis if guys are REALLY skinny and get hit in a fleshy area, a 5.56 can just do a thru-n-thru, it needs about 4-6" of penetration before it starts to go wild
Why didn't the army just adopt the draco??
WMDs in Vietnam would have got Russia to get involved directly
They couldn't decide between the Draco or Glocks wit da switch, so they adopted neither.
@@Calvin_Coolage This is true
Why not hipoints?
Obviously it's because they couldn't get VZ Grips for them
This is how you correct Wendigoon and not like how that other guy did.
That guy didn’t just not correct Wendigoon, he fully corrected himself right out of existence on any social media platform XD
@@Thisisausername556 is his channel still private?
The other guy was a communist that was just a mad soy boy. This guy was politely correcting wendigoon
In Praise of Shadows, his channel is still up but his video shitting on Wendigoon “Bad Conservative Horror Movies” is only available in a reupload
I think that other guy had to make that video to join whatever pedo club he's been trying to get into. Like a gang initiation
The AR15 stands for assault rifle 15 (15 for how many bullets it can hold) it was made by Call of Duty to sell their 4th game. Eugene Stoner, named as such over his famous love for weed- thought of it in 2010 when he was like "yo these quickscopers suck- I need a junk 3 burst to counter that'll be quickly replaced by the AUG, M4, or Famas"
yes
I think I read this in a Jeff Cooper book, straight facts.
😂🤣
please edit your comment to 5th game. i am sorry.
@@life_of_riley88 kEeLoLoGy b0rThEr
Ah, yes, over an hour of pure gun autism I love it
You are wrong, the army tried to sabotage the m16 because they wanted to implement the gold scar as it 31 dmg instead of 28.
Check your sources buddy.
True
That was pre patch though, they updated the damage to 30 and went with the M4 with nude anime girls on it, 50 round drums, and the mega dong foregrip
We want the 4 hour version, and we want it NOW!
Ayo watcha doing here?
ua-cam.com/video/Q2NjB-vcv3E/v-deo.htmlsi=AgP2mgAd5P6jXVZ_
i didnt know u were cool like that
Is it ok to tell people that the forward assist is like the pump on a bb gun and the more times you press the power up button the faster the bullets will go? Asking for a friend.
Not only ok but advised.
Tell em the bullet has more stopping power and damge too
Yes, you should tell people exactly what it was designed to do.
The Afghans call it the Sniper button
I though it was the level up button
Slight quibble on the cleaning kit aspect.
No, the Army didn't have "M16 specific cleaning kits" originally, and they didn't (originally) have butt traps for cleaning kits, either. So the rifles *were* shipped to troops without cleaning kits. And it was the first standard issue rifle in *70 years* that couldn't (in a pinch) use the cleaning kit of the previous rifle, because it wasn't .30 caliber. That means nobody was used to thinking, "Oh, shit, we need to make sure each new rifle gets a cleaning kit shipped with it!"
*However* ... the proper cleaning brushes, rods, and cleaning patches were *already in inventory* , complete with NSN codes that any supply sergeant could order at will. *If* the supply guys knew the proper numbers (reading through a 1960s NSN catalog blindly to get the *correct* stuff not really being a reliable way to do it).
Remember, the Army had been using .22LR training rifles for a *long* time by this point - and unless the chamber is actually rusty, you don't really need a chamber brush - but you do need a rod, brush, and patch holder that fits the bore (you can cut .30 patches in half and use them - that's generally what we used in the 1980s because it was easier to have everyone carry .30 patches so the *M60* always had cleaning patches.)
Which comes to the Colt tech teams, which would come out to your unit (even in Vietnam) and spend a day or so on "train the trainer" and teach NCOs and supply clerks how to maintain and support the rifle beyond how to order more ammo. The NCOs would then reach the troops how to do operator level stuff, and the armored and supply sergeants would know how to do their part, including having a cheat sheet of the proper NSN codes for all the supply needs (spare parts, *cleaning supplies* , etc.)
Studies of units that *did* take advantage of the offered traveling tech support teams *did not* report the issues that drove the Icord hearings. Nor did those troops believe the rifles were "self cleaning", because they *knew* how to clean them and had cleaning supplies, because *they had been trained* .
Special Forces units (even those that didn't call in the tech teams) didn't have problems, because even without tech support, the SF Light Weapons Sergeants (minimum of two of them in every 12 man ODA, and usually at least four when you count cross training) could figure it out and damned well *knew* the rifles would need to be cleaned, and figured out how to get the right cleaning supplies.
You know which units *did* report major reliability issues in Vietnam? The units whose commanders decided they didn't need to call in civilian tech support teams (who were manufacturer reps, remember), and didn't want to "waste" a day or so of training time with "civilians" underfoot. And those are the *same* units where troops though the rifle was "self cleaning" ("Because its all aluminum, right?" while possibly remembering reading that Colt and Armalite had boasted the *gas tubes* didn't need to be cleaned - which is true - while forgetting that they were only discussing the gas tube, not the whole rifle).
And when I enlisted in 1987, I was *still* seeing Fuddlore cleaning myths about the M16 kicking around from these undertrained units in Vietnam circulating via Rumor Control over beers in the NCO Club. Further reinforced by Fuddlore kicking around from Ye Olde Corrosive Ammo Days, and armorers inspecting M16s as if they were M1903 Springfields issued with bore cleaner solvent and firing corrosive ammo. It was so bad they had to put a line in the operator and armorer's manuals to say, "Quit trying to white glove the rifles! If it will *pass* a white glove, they didn't clean it correctly, and it's not lubricated correctly!"
I hope I didn't mispeak and say M16 specific kits existed initially - they didn't, but cleaning kits that would work did exist, as you point out.
Colt had proposed a trapdoor buttstock in late 1963. The USAF didn't see a need for it from their experience so far with the 601 and 602. There were additional. TCC objections over the cost, and the potential delay for delivery of the new 603 and 604.
Gotta appreciate the guys who lived it.
Many modern AR users a huge amount brag about how they literally never clean their Ars Crome lined ARs because the gas essentially blows the entire chamber out really legitimately do clean themselves, can get fouled but the violence of the gas from flowing into the chamber can clear snow out of the gun easily and even dust and mud out. Crs firearms proved this that AR 15s are actually more capable of dealing with harsh conditions because the gas enters the chamber due to the gas key interchange. Where the gas In piston gun he gas stays in the piston and doesn’t back flow directly into chamber to the degree that ARs uniquely do.
I am not autistic about this things I’m not lying but tell me how much I am wrong all you want all you want.
@@IvanPrintsGuns at this point should we bother watching wendigoon's video? is there any useful info to grab from his video? Not asking because I'm lazy, j-just asking because I'm on your side.
I WANT THE 4 HOURS! WE WANT THE 4 HOURS!
Seconded
@@parzavaal5335Thirded
#releasetheratcut
4 hour cut
4 HOUR CUT
I dont. I just read the description and called it good.
#releasethefourhourcut
#releasetheratcut
ua-cam.com/video/Q2NjB-vcv3E/v-deo.htmlsi=AgP2mgAd5P6jXVZ_
And anyone who thinks the M16 had an especially bad initial start should look at all the engineering changes the M1 Garand (which had ten years of development before adoption) implemented between adoption and the US entering WWII, meaning they could be integrated into production *prior* to US troops taking them into battle in large numbers. Hell, the basis of the entire gas system were changed, from being a Bang gas trap to a gas port design (a decidedly non-trivial change).
Or they could look at the reliability issues with the M1 and M2 Carbines. We would *never* acceot the malfunction rates the Army thought were fine with the M1 Carbine. Note the M1 Carbine really was a rush project, too.
The failure rates and accuracy requirement will blow your mind the first time you read about them.
yeah the Germans get a lot of shit for being so stuborn with the Bang system on the G41 Mauser and Walther before they stopped being weirdos and went with the G43. While at the same time, it is often overlooked that the Americans almost did the same mistake. And if they had been under the same dire circumstancees as the Germans, maybe they would have.
M1 was also sabotaged by the army who wanted their 3006 big boy bullet instead of tiny 280 it was designed for
@@tedarcher9120 Uhm, how is it sabotage? The desire to keep .30-06 beyond providing higher stopping power had a much larger advantage of not providing an additional strain on logistics and manufacturing by integratingg a completely new calibre that no other service weapons used. It kind of worked for M1 Carbine because it had a different doctrinal role and thus at least in theory wouldn't be used as much.
@@stepanokhrimenko9189 retaining a 30-06 provided a much bigger strain on logistics as in developing a completely new carbine with a completely new cartridge and magazine and producing millions of them, then again developing a new cartridge with a new rifle again, which with 276 would not have been needed
Calling out Wendigoon and saying gun jesus is wrong. The redditors are gonna have their wife's boyfriends call you a bad word
I love when e-celeb fanboys assume their e-celeb's ego is as fragile as theirs' so they have to leap to their defense. Thankfully I've seem very little of that on this video's comments.
I'll go further and say GT is not very knowledgeable about guns and Small Arms Solutions propagates fudd lore at times.
I go to SAS for his knowledge of working at Colt, and not much else tbqh.
Nice pfp
@@flopus7I've come to realize GT's kind of a shill more than anything. SAS has his fair share of problems but he's better than most "experts" out there.
Rizz 'em with the Tism! 😂
I'M interested in a 4 hour video!
I hope nobody thinks this is a hate video. My boy Wendigoon literally asked for people more knowledgeable on specifics to point out the things he got wrong
Edit: also I wanna just say that just because Wendigoon got some specific stuff wrong about the AR-15 and its procurement, doesn’t mean he is wrong about all the history, which was the main focus of the video. He’s a gun enthusiast yes, but he obviously doesn’t know absolutely everything about the AR-15 platform.
Also, enthusiast =/= expert or professional
Like for example, I enjoy Battlefield 1, but that doesn't mean that I don't suck ass at the game
@@Mate_Antal_Zoltan i’m aware. I said that in my initial comment.
the entire premise of his vid is wrong
I mean to be fair if you are going g to make a video about a very specific thing you should have very very very good knowledge of that thing, ir else you get the IGN experience
@@smugwendigo5123 i think his video was mainly to discuss how Congress came to the conclusion that it was criminal negligence
A lot of politics started making sense to me when someone pointed out that debate club rules aren't to be right, but to provide a compelling argument while not getting mad at the other team. Not that far removed from UA-cam comment thread rules.
You’re wrong and I’m mad at you
You are both false and a member of the homosexual community.
With some chosen debates you’re purposely given a weak argument to learn how not to give ground or to admit faults to your given side of the debate because then that one little budge will skew an audience against you majorly. It’s why George W Bush has that famous sound bite of “fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice… you can’t get fooled again” because he fumbled using that idiom but knew midway he couldn’t be recorded on camera saying “shame on me” because for as insignificant as the actual context of him saying it is, it would be used against him tenfold for any other blunders or mistakes he would make later on. For as much of a clown as some people made him out to be regardless, he knew how to spin his missteps or what pitfalls to avoid. You can admit there’s issues but can’t ever admit that you are wrong.
@@F_lippy Its such a shame that debates can't simply be about what isa true and what is not true and does have to have a component that is convincing an audience that you're "winning" because debate watchers are too stupid to notice what is happening and see the fallacies.
Chris Bartocchi is where most of the story of the M16 being sabotaged from within comes from in the guntube sphere, but he never blames the "army" as a whole. He blames Ordnance Corps and Springfield Arsenal.
In order for what happened to be sabotage, you need a definition for sabotage that includes "made decisions in the past that ended up being not ideal in the present"
That's just such a tortured use of the term. If you ask me, anyway.
I watched Full Spectrum's video on the forward assist and lost alot of faith in Chris's version of the M16's history.
@@mr.stotruppen8724 - One of my contributions to the Vickers Guide AR-15 Vol 1 2nd Ed was mainly written as a rebuttal to Jim Sullivan and Chris Bartocci.
@Extremely_Nigh
His Stoner worship goes beyond rational. Man holds the SR-25 as the pinnacle of precision rifle development and refuses to acknowledge its documented shortcomings.
@@Extremely_Nigh same. Just watching the Eugene Stoner tapes that the Smithsonian owns will make you look at Chris and his version of events way differently.
This is the kinda autism I go on UA-cam for
Since when learning is autism 🤦♂️
the non-production of the ar15 /10 beltfed lmg was the real crime in the gun's history, so i consider whoever stopped / disagreed on its existence as an act of sabotage by a criminal and their criminal organization.
one can only wish, alternatively one can make dreams a reality
@@50_foot_punch99 Look up the Ares Shrike
Jokes aside good job not rage farming. It'd be really easy to scree
Reasons why the forward assist is in fact a good design feature for the modern age, even if it didn't seem as important at the time.
1: Every night patrol I did in jungles and heavy woods while I was active duty, at least one person in my squad had their charging handle get caught on something pulling the bolt slightly out of battery. Quietly pushing the fa every 15-30 minutes was the easiest and stealthiest manor to ensure our rifles were ready to go. This was with a milspec T handle too, with modern extended T handles the issue is likely more frequent.
2: Circumstances that cause a reduced bolt velocity when reloading, such as minor ice build up in winter, spring wear, and while an infantryman shouldn't let his rifle get that dirty, carbon build up. In those more rare frequencies the best solution is the fa since slingshotting the bolt doesn't quite get the same force as shooting. Usually in those cases the bolt has enough velocity to cycle when fired, to get to a point you can fire it you need the bolt in battery, which you can easily do with a fa.
3: Bored troops in the field like to fidget with shit. If we weren't pushing the fa, we were slipping our safeties on and off, or finding something else to toggle. It may sound weird but if you're living outdoors for weeks at a time with no entertainment, you'll make entertainment. Pushing a fa is a far better option than the safety selector, LAM/light switches, or anything else we had on us.
I've never seen a real person with more than 30 minutes of training use the fa as a jam enhancer like some people try to claim it is. The only time I've seen that is when youtubers intentionally use it wrong to prove a point because it tickles their anti-fa biases. This is also coming from someone who has several ultralight personal builds and a WWSD, but I also understand some extra ounces here and there aren't the end of the world on a fighting rifle for a professional military.
Was this in Vietnam?? What jungle?
@mookiedoeslife5999 No, mostly the jungles of Hawaii and jungle warfare school in Okinawa. Thick woods in Quantico and Hokkaido had the same effect. Sometimes, it would even happen while just shifting around on patrol in the dessert too, but that was far less frequent.
Every one of these can be fixed by racking the bolt
@@buff34x Funnily enough, I encountered this same issue while playing airsoft back when I was a teen here on Guam. Charging handle would occasionally catch while moving through dense jungle and brush. Always wondered how that would effect a real rifle.
Early 90s, during basic, we had to over clean our rifles (A2s) nearly dry. 5 mile road march with a stop at the obstacle course along the way that ends at the range. Where we had to mag dump until fouling require the fa to be used (like a dozen mags). And drills helping with a rubber mallet and wood dowl to get through 3 or 4 more mags till bolt jammed/fouled so badly we couldn't continue.
Mallet and dowl deployed to get bolt locked back and rodded off the range. Just to have another drill use a big wooden mallet and loads of clp to help free everything up. Pull the bolt flood of clp and rough nylon brush to craptastically clean the bolt (didn't tear bolt down, all surface cleaning) and back to the firing line.
Dump three more mags just to prove we "fixed" our m16a2 rifles. Lesson, cleaned and oiled rifles work best, the fa can save your life, and even a rough cleaning and fresh clp will keep it running when you're in the shit. Oh, and tales of m16 unreliability are overblown.
Never can grasp the number of people who'd pick "or death" when a military gets to the point of a choice between "use your fa, or death".
The best presentation I’ve seen on this issue. In the early 80s in Central West Germany - I had M16s in my armory with 4 digit serial numbers, open flash lugs, and several did not have chromed bolts - always wondered about that
The forward assist is absolutely necessary
i love the halo rat in the corner to keep my zoomer attention
Let's ask Rittenhouse if he wanted a forward assist on his AR-15.
LOL😂
@SmallArmsSolutions been watching your content for years. Thanks for doing the work you do for us.
Yeah, that scenario could have gone either way. I'm of the Clint Smith school of thought, if a round doesn't want to chamber, what sense does it make to try and jam it in farther? (not blaming the round specifically in this case, just generally in instances of why a round won't chamber) Get that round out if the firearm. Usually that makes clearing the jammed round more difficult.
Does it take significantly less time to hit the forward assist than rack a new round? Probably depends on which way you train.
I had a jam one time that would have never gotten unstuck without a FA on my rifle. I will always have one on mine for sure.
@@theunofficialresults231 "I'm of the Clint Smith school of thought, if a round doesn't want to chamber, what sense does it make to try and jam it in farther?"
There are reasons other than a chamber obstruction that might prevent the bolt from going fully home. I had one malfunction where the solution was either 1) Rack un unknown number of perfectly good rounds out of the magazine until the buffer spring could overcome some light grit and magazine spring tension or 2) Hit the forward assist once.
I went with option 2. I think Clint Smith would want you to have sufficient knowledge of your firearm to asses the state of your firearm and act accordingly, rather than relying on theoretical rules of thumb that you read on the internet. Knowing when you shouldn't AND when you SHOULD use the FA is part of that.
Also no, the "thumb scallop" didn't work.
Now this is ARtism
Came across this randomly not long after enjoying Wendi's take on the adoption issues. It would be awesome to get you 2 in a chatroom to discuss sources and conclusions. I'm sure he'd be down for it as well.
I don't think it would be much of a discussion because wendigoon is probably self aware that he's an extremely amateur gun person
@@wizard_of_poz4413factually incorrect, he’s a gun obsessed UA-camr!!!
I used the forward assist on my AR literally last week lmao. I accidentally got a sloppy pull back on the charging handle on a mil spec charging handle that is also really wobbly and won't come back in a straight line very easily at all lol, it just gets caught on the edge if you try to just rack it with the side of your hand, and so I didn't pull it back all the way, let go, didn't close completely, smacked forward assist real quick, and bam, back in business
Eugene Stoner is rolling in his grave over this
@@Extremely_Nigh Stone-tards are malding rn
Its also useful for every presscheck i make ever
If the bolts stuck towards the rear, you can't disassemble the weapon. The idea of not being able to easily push it forward would be extremely disconcerting for me.
"mil-spec" "sloppy"
translation: my budget AR has out of spec parts and has never been cleaned forward assist pls save me
drop that 4 hour video, I work 10 hour shifts and would listen to the entire thing
Solidarity for 10 hour gang.
I think this is the missing chromosome I was looking for
I do appreciate you having a summary in the description.
Holy shit. I've been watching fuddbusters for a couple years but never realized you had your own channel. Real glad to see
I honest to God, heard his voice, and thought, "Is he one of the hosts from Fudd Blasters?"
@bigsmokeinlittlechina174 I was sent here from a reddit link, and as soon as I heard the voice I was like wait, and then I saw the spinning rat and I knew I was in safe hands
When UA-cam recommended me Wendigoon's video I figured it was either going to tell me things I already knew or would frustrate me because I haven't seen him do firearms content, so I just scrolled past...
I only knew of him because of some leftist UA-camr slandered (in the moat agergous yet lazy manner possible) bunch of people I watch in attempt to cancel Wendigoon via guilt by association
Professor, will this be on the Final?
As someone who greatly enjoys Wendigoon's content and is a big fan of his, and even thought that (while flawed) his recent video was overall pretty decent if not entirely accurate, I must say that I greatly appreciate your correction of some of the things Wendigoon either failed to address or just got incorrect.
This video is well done, and it's clear that you're not trying to attack Wendigoon's character or him personally for his mistakes, and are overall very respectful and professional while providing insightful and educational corrections, as this is information that can understandably be misinterpreted given the complexities and widely held misconceptions of the subject.
I was worried upon going into this video that it would just be someone nitpicking an argument to attack Wendigoon's character, be petty and/or dramatic, or try to say that nothing Wendigoon every says can be seen as valid. I was happy to see this was not at all the case, and was instead a humble gun autist using the video to correct inaccuracies for the sake of educational insights and historical knowledge, while humoursly being well aware of their own gun-tism for what it is.
Overall, much respect and appreciation, you've gained a new subscriber from me as someone who's interested in becoming a gun autist as well.
Regarding the forward assist, one of my favorite comments on any video was one of Forgotten Weapons doing a mud test on a rifle that had no forward assist and wishing he had one.
Yeah but were you forced to walk down a dirt path for a few minutes?
Asking the real questions
I've been subbed to you for months and just now triggered the synapse connection to notice that you're the same guy from Fuddblasters.
Fascinating video. I'd be interested in hearing more about the M14's adoption.
Agreed
Subbed. Love ya from fuddbusters, a friend told me about this video, would kill to watch a history of AR's from you.
Thank You! There were so many times in Wendigoon’s video I was saying to myself “that’s not true” or “that’s half right” almost made this video myself
Does this mean Mom and Dad are going to get divorced? 😢
"Congress Lizards" Thank you, I'm stealing this.
We NEED the 4 hour version ASAP
Ya know this video is a good example of a rule of thumb I have. If the question is government conspiracy or incompetence, it’s probably incompetence
"Never attribute to malice what could be explained by stupidity"
Why not both?
except it's not a good rule. it's naivete based cope
@@m92quad55 I’m sure there will be a day where whatever conspiracy you believe will be proved true and we’ll all say “thanks m92quad55, you’re super awesome!”
@@monkeychife my opinions rely on a combination of personal research and probability. Not consensus of the masses. Keep waiting on your enemies to admit their criminality though. You proved my point and you don't even realize
I didnt ask for an hour and a half long video from Ivan. I'll be damned if i dont sit here and watch all of it though!
I have used the forward assist after firing shit loads of blanks and the bolt got kinda sluggish. Eventually just added more lube when l got the chance and that fixed it
It's good if you hunt and don't want to have your bolt clang forward and be heard a mile away
The Black Rifle and America's Rifle (formerly Black Rifle II) are excellent.
Edward Ezell was an unbelievable genius and his output was insane, and it's also insane how much of it has remained so correct, truthful, and influential. I have two of his books, and they are massive and they are DEEP and hard to read sometimes because your head just starts spinning with dates and model numbers and design changes and so on. I have Handguns of the World and Small Firearms, both of which seem kinda hard to find now? But I'm not 100% sure how scarce his books are becoming, but it's a shame that they aren't reprinting this shit like every 5 years
DROP THE IVAN CUT (4 HOUR REACTION)
ua-cam.com/video/Q2NjB-vcv3E/v-deo.htmlsi=AgP2mgAd5P6jXVZ_
So when do we get the 4 hour cut?
the forward assist is fun to press. it seems to keep me busy when i’m bored and have downtime
the forward assist was a good change purely because it looks nice :)
Yea personally I don't think it's completely useful, but the AR just doesn't look right without it.
The horse shoer my mom used as I was growing up was a Vietnam vet. I asked him about the M16 having problems after seeing some history channel trash. He said, “I dunno about all that, but mine worked pretty fucking well.”
I didn’t ask any follow up questions on that.
Edit: also, I remember trying to listen to Wendigoon’s video about the North Hollywood shooting years ago. It was painful
RELEASE THE 4H AUTISTIC RAMBLE RN!!!
I'm really glad you made this video I have constantly heard this ball versus stick powder debate pushed, along with the overall narrative of the AR-15 early adoption. Clearly I should have picked up that book a long time ago and actually investigated the sources as opposed to just listening to various "experts" from history channel to UA-cam to blogs Etc..
My interpretations and conclusion shouldn't be taken as the only possible interpretation. It's possible to be more harsh to the Army and DOD than I feel is appropriate, but my background in gun design rough understanding of the political situation make it hard for me to even think negligence is well supported. But the facts are what they are, and it makes sabotage an impossible interpretation.
Sorry for not finding your channel sooner!
Like the long format, ready for more.
"The commercial market wasn't interested"
Even in the 60s, fudds were fudds
Generational Fuddation
Just a little feedback for future videos. You might want to consider putting additional details and side notes at the end of the video. It really takes you out and makes it hard to follow when you start right off the gate with hyper focused details. Especially when it takes like 15 minutes until the actual video starts.
Incredibly interesting, all while using primary sources! 👍🏻
For all its faults, the US Army has historically had a robust process for small arms procurement, using lots of data to drive decisions, and ultimately leading to very fine service weapons.
Yes… that includes the M14 🤫
I'm sorry I couldn't hear you as I was rendered deaf by the ringing of the m14 flash hider
The M14 isn't fundamentally useless, but as a standard issue rifle as far past the dawn of the assault rifle as it was, it didn't ever really have a chance.
@IvanPrintsGuns it seems like a gun that's very okay on paper . In theory, it should be fine, but irl it's a pain in all the worst ways
Can’t wait for the Stoner-Kalashnikov meeting vid
As an @wendigoon viewer, i hope he sees this. This has been a quite informative video and i think he would benefit greatly from watching your video. Thank you for this information.
Glad to see that wendigoon viewers (i am one too) aren't the type to attack someone for a fact filled debunk. We all seem to hate slander though.
Yes, I would like to see a video about the time Eugene Stoner and Mikhail Kalashnikov hung out shooting shotguns talking about how much better the AR is then the AK. Duh.
you know who used the forward assist.... Kyle R
"Hey man if you have guns that cycling so violently and quickly that they are ripping the rim off the cases in the chamber, why don't u just increase that dwUWELL TIIME by adding more time between the gas hole and bullet end by adding more barrel time length man"
Why the hell is your video labeled as “important” in my notifications?
This is the most important thing that's ever happened
@@IvanPrintsGunsi just realised that UA-cam auto subscribed me to you.
@@MikePainstill woah based YT
@@IvanPrintsGuns real
@@fuddblasters i love when you guys talk like two teenager incels , it's very funny.
We are very interested in a video on how Stoner and Kalashnikov were able to meet up
Please do it ratman. Pretty plzz
What do you mean "how"?
@@GaiusCaligula234 he was talking about doing a video on the story of how Stoner and Kalashnikov were able to meet and shoot/talk about guns thanks to the author of the black rifle book.
Yooo Ivan, welcome-back to the grid!
never thought the fosscad community would end up in UA-cam drama. I'll be bringing the popcorn
Where have you been? There’s drama every week.
@@admiralnelson4225 not on UA-cam very often I guess. I miss being 16 years old waiting for some UA-cam drama to go down. I'll enjoy every second of this 🍿🍿
@@admiralnelson4225 dang I'm subscribed to a couple and I didn't know of any either.
drama?
Please for the love of god give me the 4 hour version
It's linked in the description
Who knew that Ivan accidentally doxxed himself as In Praise Of Shadows all along
What does this mean?
@Excaliwolf2
UA-camr named In Praise of Shadows attempted a hit piece on Wendigoon and a number of creators associated with him and failed very badly, mostly because most of his arguments were based on outright lies, half-truths, and his own personal dislike of the goon. He had to leave UA-cam for a bit and much trolling was enjoyed by all.
@@wilsoncalhounHe's also gay.
Please release the full 4 hour video
We all know the M in M16 stands for Mattel!
Honestly great video. Maintained a respectful attitude (unlike some UA-camrs) and clearly layed out your thoughts as well as counter evidence.
I'm looking for that 4hr vid. Would be pretty interesting I'd bet.
I think my biggest gripe with the video is just how many people don't understand how terminal ballistics work. M193 is fantastic because it yaws, deforms, and fragments consistently when pushed past 2500fps. There's no special magic to it, NATO just didn't have a chance to fuck it up yet.
The unfortunate truth is that Wendigoons video has substantially more views than this one. And the information presented in his video will be the gun shop fuddlore for the foreseeable future.
Ivan have you ever thought of doing a belt fed upper? Printed or lost PLA casting either would be fantastic
Nah “psychological” benefits of forward assist is crazy
Imagine you're in complete darkness, can't risk turning a light on, and have to get a round chambered. Maybe you've got a calibrated enough pinky to feel if the front shoulder of the carrier is all the way forward, but if you're also cold or wet, this probably won't work. Wouldn't you prefer to have a way to ensure the bolt is definitely all the way forward?
Maybe if you can’t think in the abstract, but it makes perfect sense to literally everyone else
You're confusing "the Army" did a thing, with a belief that means the entirety of the Army did a thing. A handful of people, I'll call them Croziers, did set up the M16 to fail. No, they didn't clownshoes their malfeasance, but yes it was sabotage. Subtle in form, still sabotage. The fixes were so easy that the Croziers caused the complete closure of Springfield; the opposite of what they wanted. The A1 was loved by the end of Vietnam, 90%+ loved it.
Can you define sabotage?
@@IvanPrintsGuns
1. The deliberate destruction of property or obstruction of normal operations, as by civilians or enemy agents in a time of war.
2. The deliberate attempt to damage, destroy, or hinder a cause or activity.
Is favoritism not deliberate? Did it not hinder the cause of equipping US soldiers with a modern weapon system?
I'm seventeen minutes in and you've just said "In full context I don't think you can establish a broad scale picture of incompetence... there's not broad level incompetence, certainly not broad level malevolence you would need to establish this to be sabotage" but neither malevolence nor broadness of such is necessary to meet the standard definition of sabotage.
JSYK I love your work and Wendy's and I think you are both doing good on this, but I don't think Wendy's vid was as slanted as you're giving the impression of so far, and I do think your response might also be slanted just in the opposite direction. I haven't seen it all, and I'm not even saying it's a bad thing, I think between the two of you we the viewer are blessed with both sides of this dispute. Keep up the good work Ivan!
There's no evidence of sabotage presented, which is a higher bar than malevolence or incompetence, both of which weren't really evidenced (at least not without the omission of facts that show the opposite to be the case)
@@IvanPrintsGunsSo what do we call it when someone sabotages themselves? Incompetence?
Self sabotage and incompetence are different things, and they may overlap, but neither feature in a significant way in this story.
I want the 4 hour Rat cut of this video!
Hey do you plan to do more videos of this style this was really good
We also want the 4 hour video.
Well, this getting more nuanced.
What are your thoughts on the adoption of the sig spear?
Likely not going to contribute to any measurable performance on the battlefield
This is what i was thinking of, Black Rifle 1 and The Great Rifle Controversy are absolutely necessary for this kind of discussion and I'm glad i own both books
The forward assist is actually good because sometimes the gun jams slightly and you hammer it home
😂no it aint
One last comment. The part of the video that is "Ivan from the future" where you clear up some technical details that are irrelevant to the theme/thesis itself probably should've been omitted or moved to the end of the video because people who only watch a little bit of the video might see that part and write off the rest of the video as just pedantic BS that really is just gun autism.
@21:51: US gets no Wunderwaffen and fails every attempt
hey we've gotten pretty close to some of those wunderwaffen designs these days lmao
Inb4 Wendigoon comments on this video inviting you to tell him more.
I would love a 4-5 hour guntism video Mr. Rat
I think he should take a look at this video honestly. He seems like the kind of guy to genuinely consider criticism like this.
I hope that that the more annoying parts of his fanbase don’t get angry about this and I would like to apologize on behalf of the people that will leave mean comments regardless.
Wendigoon is very open to criticism (he closes his vid on the m16 asking for criticism) and the fanbase is on the most part very welcoming ( But also on edge i would say, bc Wendigoon got targeted a fiew times)
I knew this was coming the second I watched wendigoons video, I’m invested now
When you went into the gun autism rant about clips and chargers . You earned my subscription.
4 hour breakdown of a 1 hour video; you trying to compete with Mauler for _The Long_ ?
Hi rags
@@countrytodd4614it’s “also, hi rags.” you bafoon
I remember Chris Bartocci had a great video on the whole m16 controversy. He used to work at colt
my buddy's friend was in veit nam and told us that they could only load 16 rnds in the 20 rnd mags and he swapped the m16 for a m2carbine that he said he ended up loving. he said he could dump a whole mag into a fist size group witch would be a nice attribute despite the bad reputation of not being a one shot man stopper. and if i wer to chose between the early m16 and an m2carbine the full auto carbine would be hard to beat. the Tommy gun always seemed like a great brush gun to me and would also be a good alternative if you could find one. but if i wer choosing one today ide pick the m4. for pretty obvious reasons.
The Thompson is just huge and heavy. It’s easier to control than people like to claim, but it is absolutely enormous and heavy.
Slightly unrelated but Happy Independence Day! 🇺🇸