My worship leader was actually a member of the band. Best worship leader I’ve ever played under. Genuine believer with strong believes and huge theological knowledge.
Well, part of the problem is that your church has a "worship leader" in the first place. The "worship leader" is an elder, typically a teaching elder, who leads the congregation in worship, which is the hearing of the reading and preaching of the Word; the prayers; the sacraments; the collection, the benediction, and that sort of thing. There might be a person who leads the music, but calling the singing specifically "worship" relegates the rest of the aforementioned as something less than worship, now doesn't it?
@@Daniel-vp2on it's their best album yet I think. Although this album dichotomy is my favorite still. Doug really needs to reanalyze what he thinks about metal and listen to their track deep heaven with all the piano breaks and other genres mixed in. 👍
There are some people who prefer to consistently listen to a certain form of music in spite of whatever mood they're in. That doesn't mean they misunderstand their lives or that their lives are a mess. There are times where I listen to beautiful classical or contemporary Christian worship music when my life really is a mess or when I'm sad/angry/whatever, simply because I feel listening to said music can be calming despite the fact that the lyrics tend to not relate to my situation in the moment. Then there are times where I'm in great shape, I'm happy, life is going great and I feel deeply connected with God spiritually, yet I'll listen to stuff like death metal (BTA is an awesome one though my personal favorite of the genre is Hope for the Dying), metalcore, or whatever and equally enjoy it then. I have no desire to rebel against God intentionally, and I feel in a deeper connection with Christ than I have in YEARS today (and the past few days as well, hopefully this continues as I hate feeling distant), yet I just finished listening to the album that song is from. Do I misunderstand my life? No. There are some uncertainties going on right now, but there are always uncertainties (your next breath, my next heartbeat, those are uncertain as we aren't guaranteed the next moment by any means). Honestly, I'd say I understand my life and understand God at a deeper level now than I have in ages, and frankly, it's THANKS to music like this. Bands such as BTA have lyrics that I can relate with in my struggles, yet feel like they celebrate with me in the triumphs God has had in my life. When I struggle with feeling emotionally disconnected with God (as I have off and on for the past three years now), their lyrics encourage me. When I feel like this, where I feel like I understand and experience Christ at an extremely deep level, their lyrics encourage me further by reminding me of from where Christ has delivered me and the place in which I stand has become His triumph over darkness and sin in my life. Now am I going to go out and listen to Satanist, anti-Christian bands because I feel secure in my faith? No. I feel the Holy Spirit convict me when I hear something He doesn't want me to further pursue and I try to always heed His warnings. However, if the music praises God, aims to encourage Christians, or discusses life struggles with a message of hope, there's nothing wrong with listening to those bands and there's nothing wrong with listening to them whenever you want to. In short, you can listen to whatever genre of music you'd like whenever you like and you won't be sinning. However, if you feel the Spirit convicting you to stop listening to a band, listen to Him.
Christian metal is the response by believers who understand that we are in a war, by the very nature of our existence; and that most other Christians are blind to this war, such that we feel that we stand alone. We must put on the armor of God every day. For some of us, Christian metal functions as our armor bearer. At the same time, I speak for many when I say that there are not too many enjoyable artists in the arena of "upbeat sounding" major key tonality music--especially on the topic of lyrics, and of these, many can come across as watered down or even apostate upon closer inspection. Incidentally, Christian metal can serve as a way to reach people who won't go to a traditional church, but will go to a rock concert.
“End of the Age” is Becoming the Archetype’s best song. From a Reformed lens of the scriptures, the lyrics are beautiful. Christ is Grand, Majestic and His law is Highly Grand. Every time I listen to that song and ponder the lyrics, I can’t help but think about Romans 9 and particularly 1 Corinthians 15 in that Christ is and has been in the process of putting ALL His enemy’s under His feet through the ages... While all of history is moving towards the Great Day of the Lord in which Christ will get the last say so and the good of those who love Him will inherit the earth. The song reminds me that to think I am apart of that in spite of my sin/ short coming’s and solely upon Christ grace alone through faith alone is truly beyond me.
i cry everytime i listen to this song. I fall to my knees and worship the Master of Heaven. He is truly merciful despite my past sins and current. All Praise to Yahuah!!!
yeah this is the second subject on which i'm not sure Doug is completely correct. but I still respect him, and share many other views with him. hes also saying music that he thinks sounds good is the better music to listen to.
Man, I saw BTA back in like 2002 or 03 or something in a dive ass bar in SLC. They were supposed to open for Nevermore, but Nevermore didn't show up. It's the first time I heard this band they blew me away. Been a fan ever since.
Exactly and honestly the type of expression. Largely misunderstood brings me a lot of calm and peace and their drummer is actually the worship leader at my church. And. Is very classically based and can release endorphins and fight anxiety
Your observations are mirrored somewhat by the creator of the album "Hellig Ustvart." He said that it was difficult to write Christian black metal that wasn't about being against Satan and his influence. I would say that death metal as a genre can have a wide range of emotions, not just rage. I've listened to death metal songs showing grief, triumph, love, and other emotions. Saying that death metal songs are just about one emotional stage because it utilizes intense instrumentation is like saying pop songs are just about lust because so many songs contain sexual suggestive lyrics. It's an incomplete view. To be fair, it's a commonly held incomplete view.
Totally right about Christian black metal my friend! Hortor has no restraint in that department 😂. I especially liked their album titles.... "Ancient satanic rituals are crushed to dust" is the best imo. I really don't like black metal but I very much appreciate the energy they put into it and their zeal in their work to expose the Devil.
Imma be honest, I've been born and raised in a Christian household, I love God with all my being, he's saved me from death on several occasions. And the funny thing is, I listen to metal basically 24/7, my favorite bands are Wolves At The Gate, August Burns Red, War of Ages, Demon Hunter, Fit For A King, Phinehas & Becoming The Archetype. Yet when people meet me, when word does get back to me, they always are like "That dude was pretty cheerful/optimistic" or I leave a positive impact of some kind. It really irritates me when people say stuff like "that guy must not he happy because he listens to so much metal." I was born, raised & believe the So. Baptist doctrine, but I can't help but to disagree with a lot of what was said in this one sided discussion. My point in saying this, is to those who might read this comment, and you feel like listening to the music you love is somn bad, don't, so long as it doesn't go against what the Bible says or what God has commanded us to do, then it is fine, enjoy what you want, be it Veil of Maya or Impending Doom, if it does not speak out against the Lord.
I grew up in the black church, as a heavy listener of metal, and I remember at one fellowship service I was wearing a shirt from c28 that had a scripture from revelation, and said “Faithful Until Death” with a skull on it. A guy roughly my age walks up to me in a suit after service and points at my shirt with an uncomfortable look on his face and says “hey man do you know what *that* means?” (Pointing at the skull). I was confused. He repeats the question and then says “bro, the skull is death and flesh and demonic tendencies.” I looked back at him and asked him if he even read the shirt. He did not. I pointed to the scripture then told him, the skull was merely a graphic to represent the scripture. (Aside from the fact everyone in the building literally has a skull in their own head, by design lol). He just shakes it off tells me to “be careful”. I really honestly didn’t understand any of that interaction over my T-shirt because it seemed like a joke almost, but it was telling about the church’s one-sided untested opinion on certain matters. Shortly after that, I wanted to do something dramatic so about a month later we had a youth service at our own church, and I was a worship leader. I opened service by playing Underneath The Gun’s “Deathcard”. Over the speakers. Needless to say, they were not feeling it 😂.
@@AndyWrasman I've heard about that study, from my experience, it seems to be true. Nine times out of ten, when I've met a metalhead who wasn't happy, it's because they had something difficult going on.
Before I was saved by The Grace of The Father and the Love of Jesus Christ, I was deep into occultism and I enjoyed lots of metal and rock bands that were blatantly occult in their views and texts. After I was saved by Jesus I threw it all away and now I still enjoy metal, but bands that are by Christians. I often find myself glorifying God through many types of music including Christian metal.
hallelujah brother. Well I think but that's my opinion that as long as the lyrics don't glorify the devil or blaspheme you can also hear other metal bands. If you only go after that, you shouldn't listen to hip hop, blues, soul and others ;). God protect you all.
That this only now came into my recommended videos, given my music viewing and my viewing of Canon Press (& adjacent) content, indicates astonishing weakness in UA-cam's algorithm.
@@tylerbasham1491 Oh, I pretty well sorted out my convictions on the matter years ago. I just would have liked to be part of the interactions on this long before it was a relic by UA-cam standards.
Touring in a Christian metal band for a good part of my adult life, i can tell you that this music allows you to relate to the darkest corners of humanity and brings light to it.
Um ... no one needs death metal to "relate to the darkest corners of humanity". We've got that built-in. Bring it to light? Why would we want to bring the darkest corners of humanity to light?
@@RanlamSeddit Really? The writer of the OP didn't say that I misunderstood. Do you have access to his mind? Mind spending a moment actually supporting your claim rather than making a vague assertion?
@@stegokitty Bringing light into the darkness and bringing the darkness to the light are both necessary in this day and age. You may find this hard to believe but metal heads are actually way more primed for spiritual encounters than those depraved souls feeding their brains with contemporary pop music and all the more nuanced subtleties of it's morally bankrupt messaging. “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”
@@troyerthedestroyer I’m guessing that you are referring to Christian metalheads rather than to metalheads in general. To that, I would have to say “Well I should certainly hope so, seeing as they’re Christians, no matter how misguided they are”. But if you mean metalheads in general, you are sadly mistaken, as there’s no quantifiable difference, spiritually speaking, between the two. Lost is lost is lost. The problem that I’m (primarily) speaking of is that there’s no recognizable difference in how secular metal sounds and that of its Christian counterpart. It sounds the same. You’ve got people growling and talking like an idiot Cookie Monster for no good reason. How does that have anything whatsoever to do with Christianity? And it’s all so tired and trite and worn out. Totally unoriginal. Even the ridiculous, indecipherable logos look the same. Like I said in another comment, it’s basically like saying Christian Porn.
Glad Doug didn’t completely write off the genre. I remember a time when Christian metal was about all I listened to. End of The Age specifically was so good I listened on repeat for a few months. I have grown to appreciate a balance of genres since then and I still come back to End of The Age. “With the valleys of the seas exposed and the surface of the Earth laid bare! He reached down into the void! He reached down and took hold of me!”
The “death” in death metal I believe comes from the band Death, with chuck being the front man and performing intricately while screaming lyrics in his tone. I don’t believe the death comes from literal death-inducing energy.
Yep. I've always been under the impression that Death, the band, basically combined traditional heavy metal with speed metal/ thrash to create Death Metal. Obviously many bands have extrapolated on that, getting more technical or otherwise, but you can hear traditional heavy metal and thrashy stuff in most death metal.
@@JordanTheImpaler69the band is still called death. we need to stop asociatiing ourselves with those things. Look to Jesus the on who gives life, the on who IS life!
@@YosefA.Charis I found Christ Jesus in October 2020. Ever since then, He has given me victory over the worst of my sins. I have a very personal relationship with Him that is more important to me than anything in this world or otherwise. He is my path, to which I am daily trying to align myself to. And yet, I can still appreciate death metal. It's okay if you don't want to listen to it, but don't assume that, just because the word 'death' is used, it's something that must be avoided by all other Christians outside yourself. If you're not into it, you're not into it. If you can find me any scripture that indicates that we should not listen to heavy music that just happens to be defined in a genre that contains the word 'death', I am willing to stand corrected.
They are all over the spectrum with all sorts of styles incorporated. The Epigone is one of the greatest, most victorious worship songs I’ve ever heard. There’s nothing that I can say That hasn’t already been said I’m just repeating myself Repeating someone else I’m equally incapable of uttering a single new thought But You are ever worthy of adoration So how can I for a moment Cease to lift my heart in praise?! Your name is Glory My song is victory I will keep on singing Your name is Glory My song is victory There is no opposition There is no opposition There is no opposition Nothing… Can stand… In Your way!!! Make my life Your own Make my life… Your own Just as important as the lyrics are how the they are told. The music in that song is incredible. When I hear that song I think of king David dancing so hard his clothes fell off. Can’t do that with most most modern Christian music. And, yes, to what he was talking about the northern pagans getting amped up using a timbre such as this. It’s testosterone. It’s like the fight song going into a stadium, the gym, or battle. I’m burnt out on weak, limp wristed contemporary worship songs. I’m not saying there’s no place for contemporary worship. But I enjoy something that has some grunt to it. This is in-fact a spiritual war.
The problem with Doug’s take, or anyone’s for that matter after only hearing part of this one song, is that BtA’s Dichotomy has anything but one timbre. That’s what made these guys so special. This album and the debut are extremely diverse. His comment also seems to imply that those who listen to this music may only listen to this kind of music. I personally don’t know a metal fan who only listens to metal.
I am pleased Doug talks alot about the importance of context! One can argue the Christian life is about warfare! Also bands like Mortification and Stryper have amazing lyrics. Becoming the Archetype had me in floods of tears with the track Breathing Light summing up the end of the book of Revelation in a beautiful and savage way.
Although I would agree with what Doug says, I think people forget other attributes of music. The type of music you listen to all the time is so subjective and chosen for your life at that moment. I use to listen to nothing but the so called "death metal music" for a long time. I didn't do it though because I was in a dark place or was ready to go war, but because it actually relaxed me, because I would listen to it, and be amazed at some of the stuff that these people would play. I actually had the opportunity the meet and hangout with the people from becoming the archetype. They actually didn't really like to play the music they made because they simply grew out of it. But the reason they keep making it, and playing it is because there are people out there who only listen to this kind of music, and becoming the archetype would be ashamed if they stopped reaching those people. But yes to say it is of the devil is crazy. God has used this band many times in my life. Check out these lyrics from there song end of the age The earth is shaking Because of His wrath The mountains tremble At the sound of His voice He pulls down the sky To crush His enemies He descends upon them with fire He is clothed in greatness His voice resounds throughout the earth His vengeance no longer is contained His light destroys the darkness If He speaks the earth will crumble If He moves the universe will fall He is clothed in greatness His voice resounds throughout the earth With the valleys of the seas exposed And the surface of the earth laid bare He reached down into the void He reached down and took hold of me! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
A lot of metalcore band members don’t listen to metal, they just grew out of it or are around it so much that it gets old. I like most genre’s of music but metal will always be my favorite
I don’t think he was saying it’s rebellious for being atonal or classical in the instrumentation. I think he meant the intent of the majority of the people in that genre. But i don’t know anything about the character of people involved in that genre of music so I won’t speak on that. I could be wrong he may be saying the instrumental composition is rebellious in itself. I don’t really understand why that would be the case because it seems kind of arbitrary. But maybe he’s onto something with the Ecclesiastes thing. I don’t have that doctrine solid enough to go around saying certain musical frequencies are rebellious or heretical. It seems to come down to the intent of the heart and the message being put forth. Maybe sounds have messages? No clue 🤔
I feel as though death metal music fits into the feel of my life. I’ve experienced so much trauma and problems with mental health throughout my life and metal music in general makes me feel like I’m strong enough to actively fight in the spiritual warfare I’ve gone through my whole life. We’re all in this war as humans, especially for us in the Kingdom of God. It has been a fight to not end my own life in many seasons of my life. Now I thank Christ Jesus for all of these problems, because it made me accept God’s unequaled love. I’ve recently been experiencing a lot of noticing just how “not of the world” I’ve been my whole life. None of my family listens to metal like I do, and all of my friends who are into metal do not know the Lord. I’ve never fit in anywhere I’ve been. The schemes of the enemy will not prosper because God will never abandon us. I trust Him in that He is more powerful than any of His creations, including the enemy. I feel His presence when I listen to metal. I feel His love when I’m crying. I trust Him because He has never ONCE let me down. All suffering is ultimately for my benefit, as He knows it builds character. He surpasses any of the metal I could ever find.
Christian metal reflects the lament psalms, which are for different kinds of occasions. Some people's lives set them up for laments more so than hymns.
Never thought I would hear pastor Doug react to becoming the archetype! Love it!. But Doug, you should have listened to the whole song! Lots of different "tamber?" in that one song alone! No genre covers so many different styles and tones as metal does. Metal bands can be very soft and very heavy and everything in between.
@@elijahgrajkowski2505 is it really? I googled it and tamber refers to musical tones and matched what Doug was saying perfectly. Oh well, "Timbre" then. I'm Australian so it sounds like he is saying tamber to me.
If it weren't for Christian metal i wouldn't be a believer in christ today. People are different and God knows us, as well as how to reach us. He speaks stronger to me through metal than any standard worship song ever has. Metal has litterally brought me to tears of joy and physically brought me to my knees in pure awe of Gods wonder. Metal is not just angry music for a certain time and place. It is just as valid a form of worship as any regular Kind of worship. All this kind of gatekeeping is achieving, is pushing people who is in desperate need of Christ, further away from Him, and I pity both them as well as the man who think he knows what God deems as fitting worship.
We-e-ell... I agree with the general point, and during the time of my life when I was listening all metal, all the time, I was working through some issues, so granted. But "End of the Age" is one that you really have to listen all the way through and on a good sound system. Throughout the song, the tone does change, and the effect in the end, at least to me, is one of a thunderstorm ending with a drenching, cleansing rain. And to someone who understands metal a bit better and doesn't hear someone shouting and immediately get stuck on the emotion of anger, the metal growling in this song suggests grandeur rather than fury. Listening to five seconds through a cellphone speaker... I'm gonna question that methodology for analyzing a whole song. No disrespect, just saying.
Yes and their other material make use of many different timbres and dynamics. Acoustic , piano passages, a whole flamenco song. More progressive metal than death, although the vocals do take some getting used to. And yeah… most music sounds terrible listening through a cellphone speaker…especially metal.
Exactly, I don't know of any genre that covers as many tones and emotions as metal. And also, it's one of the few genres that Christians do better than the world.
Gonna have to agree with you guys here. When I’m in the gym, I usually listen to Gospel music. But, certain levels of effort in the gym require a bit of aggression. So, I have found For Today, Fit for a King, Impending Doom, and In the Midst of Lions to befitting for those times. Then again, sometimes I just feel like listening to that type of music and I don’t see anything wrong with that. As long as it’s edifying Christ and the Church with the lyrics…what’s the issue?
You are wrong. Philippians 4:8 says to focus on beautiful and edifying things. I am a musician and it is much too hard for me to worship in the conventional standard of worship music. Let’s not forget that heavy metal has been associated with sex, drugs and rebellion. Caught a bad rap from the beginning and that has indoctrinated the masses in associating rock with evil. Just because a songs timbre may be on the darker end, doesn’t make it evil or make the persons life who listen to it a mess. I am very strong in my faith undeterred with a wife and four beautiful children. We all believe in Jesus our Savior and I lead this family by example. It’s the individual’s own perception on how they react to the genre of music. A wonderful band called Bloodlines have put in me tears with their style of worship because I feel the Holy Spirit every time I listen to them. It moves me and makes me want more of Him. Never could get that with contemporary worship or hymns. 1 Corinthians 10:31 says whether you drink or eat, or whatever you do, do it in the glory of God. This is not a perversion of His word. He is to be glorified in everything that we do.
I love Becoming the Archetype so much and not only would I put this album, Dichotomy, in my top 10, but that song, The End of the Age, is my favorite track and it always brings me to glorious tears as I sing Hallelujah at the end! That said, Doug is completely right. I couldn't listen to nothing but BtA or August Burns Red, or In the Midst of a Lions all the time. I need music that brings me peace and tranquility more often than I need music to get excited with. Nothing beats the classic hymns. Come Thou Fount: Oh, to grace how great a debtor Daily I'm constrained to be Let Thy goodness like a fetter Bind my wandering heart to Thee Prone to wander, Lord I feel it Prone to leave the God I love Here's my heart, oh take and seal it Seal it for Thy courts above How Deep the Father's Love for Us: Behold the man upon a cross My sin upon His shoulders Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice Call out among the scoffers It was my sin that held Him there Until it was accomplished His dying breath has brought me life I know that it is finished Blessed Assurance: Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine! Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine! Heir of salvation, purchase of God Born of his Spirit, washed in His blood And every single lyric of In Christ Alone
You mentioned the band Theocracy but didn’t give any thoughts on it; would like to hear that since it is a very different genre from what was sampled here
A lot of what Doug said here is the wrongful perception that people have of metal-heads. We actually feel happy listening to it much of the time, or at least I do. It’s hard to beat a great riff and I love playing them. If you don’t like it that is fine but I don’t think it has to be either or. Just my two cents.
230 Sunday afternoon? I listen to this on the way home from church. With my wife and sons in the vehicle with me. There is no way to give an informed opinion of this band without listening (to at least) an entire song. But I appreciate you giving it listen.
I feel like the clip was chosen to elicit a negative reaction from the pastor, but he handled it quite well and with an open mind. We need more of that in the church
Even before I was in Christ, I couldn’t stand any version of death metal. I’ve never been able to tolerate music where I can’t understand the lyrics and where there is just screaming, yelling, and a militant, loud, driving tone *all* of the time.
I have loved metal music, but becoming Christian, I grew against it, even the Christian kind. Not because it is satanic but because I do not find it genuine worship to God. The lyrics are incomprehensible, it is just supposed to be noise, and a good load of the music is intended to attract the attention of many. If the lyrics are incomprehensible, how can you trust that the song is theologically sound? How can you wholly worship God with words of truth in your song of praise? I don't know the heart(s) of the artist(s) but metal, no, ALL MUSIC, is not made to gain the attention of man and to please them as well, but rather to worship God in spirit and truth.
@@yuypergollece6187 it's not worship music. It's just music. Christian mainstream music sucks for the most part and modern "worship" is more satanic than any metal
@@CCSI322 there's plenty of Christian metal "worship" but sometimes it feels like it's more worshipping the audience than God Himself. But yes, you have a point. I want to avoid secular music for the worst part but I can't turn on the radio and listen to something like K-POP radio lest they start blasting Reckless Love in my ears.
This song clearly raises your heart rate and adrenaline. It activates your fight or flight. Regardless of how the lyrics and beat make you feel (triumph, pain, wonder, etc), the timbre will always succeed in making you wanna run or punch someone. So I agree with the pastor that there's a time and place.
I could agree, though there are billions of occasions in one’s life, some of which would clearly be fitting for both war and hate (justly so). This criticism seems to suggest neither of those times may be important which is counterintuitive to his own statement. It’s somewhat interesting yet 1. There could not exist a genre of art nor music that god could not produce good out of. I think he simplifies that too much. 2. He extrapolates “tamber” AND musicianship to a fairly a literal extent but likely would not do so relative to modern worship music! A majority of which is simply pitiful. 3. His last comment referring to peoples lives being a mess: A partial point of the Old Testament is that we are a mess without God. Your life may not have to be a mess to appreciate that fact, and therefore this music, which glorifies God and may or may not unction one to appreciate such a statement.
@@logansmith8553 There is a time and place. Note that this statement does not say that there isn't a time. Note that this statement does not say none of these times are important. It says there is a time. Kindly reanalyse.
> the timbre will always succeed in making you want to run or punch somebody That's an incredibly strong claim, that can be disproven if anyone were to fall asleep while listening to it-which I have.
I was a Christian who played extreme metal in my teens (I’m 43 now), and later lost my faith and continued in a secular - and lyrically negative - vein. I still resonate with Christian themes, so I’m pretty qualified to talk about this. You can appreciate extreme music on different levels. Most death metal fans basically ignore the lyrics. For one thing, most of the lyrics are borderline unintelligible. For another thing, some of us don’t really care for gore, splatter, and Satanic themes. Those lyrical themes are present in the music for the same reason that those themes are present in a horror or suspense movie. Sometimes it is fun to experience that kind of emotion without experiencing the threat that would come along with it in real life. You might also compare it to a well-designed roller coaster. In this way, extreme metal is safer territory than, say, gangster rap. Gangster rap lyrics are not as deviant, but they also describe what might be called “real life,” as in, “Here’s an instruction manual for being an actual cop killer.” Death metal isn’t like that. It is understood that Obituary (a band) is deliberately trying to ring your bell and make you feel incredulous at how deprived their lyrics are. That’s the art of it, if you will - but nobody takes it seriously. This gentleman is correct in his assessment that the timbre and rhythm of this style of music lends itself almost exclusively to one mood. It is impossible to separate the energy of extreme metal from the physiology of a violent encounter. In fact, most people hate this kind of music precisely because it makes them feel like they have just lived through a violent encounter. That said, if God exists, then God is certainly awesome and big enough to encompass all manner of artistic expression, including artistic expressions with themes that are inherently negative. I would compare it to something like Greek tragedy. A Greek tragedy has an inherently negative plot line, but there is dignity within that inherently negative plotline. That’s why it qualifies as high art. The book of Ecclesiastes is also quite negative, at least ostensibly - along with so much else in the Bible - but if you look a little deeper you’ll find a doorway into something far more uplifting. The lyrics are not usually the point. Lyrics are almost an afterthought, and they are written with brutal themes because nothing else usually fits the music. That said, some extreme metal bands - such as a band called Death - have very sophisticated lyrics that really make you think. It’s rare, but not unheard of. Listening to extreme metal can feel a lot like being in a tiny rowboat in the middle of a hurricane in the open ocean. It’s sort of terrifying, but it is also literally awesome. It connotes the terrifying awesomeness of God‘s power. If I were to give any advice to my 17-year-old self, who was a vocalist and bass player in a “Christian “death metal band, here is what I would say: “Don’t be a one trick pony. When it comes to producing good art, most artists have to specialize, so it makes sense that you are perfecting the art of playing death metal. You can’t very well be good at that, and be good at everything else at the same time. But there is no rule that says you have to specialize when it comes to CONSUMING art. If you play death metal, it might be a good idea not to listen to very much of it. This gives your stress sensors a break, and it also helps you to ring in influences that might make your art more unique and interesting.” But here’s the thing: Most metal fans don’t need that advice. In fact, metal fans, whether Christians or not, are in general terms some of the most open minded music listeners you will ever encounter. For example, it is very common to meet a metal head who is at least capable of appreciating jazz or classical music, and it is well known that heavy-metal musicians have been integrating such influences for decades. But it is extremely rare to meet a jazz head, or a classical fanatic who is truly capable of appreciating metal. The reason for this is that appreciating extreme metal music requires a very sensitive ear. There’s a lot to pay attention to, and it’s rhythmically complex. A person who can appreciate Cannibal Corpse has no trouble comprehending Tschaikowsky. If there is any significant spiritual risk to being a fan of extreme metal, the risk has to do with exposing yourself to too much of it, not with the mere fact of listening to it. I would compare it to sunbathing. A little bit is good. A lot might be OK, depending on your tolerance. But yes, too much can damage you - not permanently, and probably not seriously, but some.
I can kinda agree. As a metalhead. One style doesn't fit every occasion. When I am in a more warfare focused prayer time death metal, death core, thrash and stuff like that is fitting. But there is a time for ballads and I've gotten more out of some ballads than Elevation or Hillsong. Then there's a time for something with heavy emotions like Bloodlines Severed "Man of Sorrows". Unblack metal has more of a depth than death metal. It's how the tamber is used not the tamber itself.
Doug's on point. Awesomely on point. The point to Ecclesiastes wasn't to denounce death metal but he applies principle and methods. To a degree, his point is that a many Christians today want simplicity and that's clearly wrong. Music takes form and has form. A soldier isn't going to charge into battle listening to Gregorian chants nor will someone suffering an ear infection listen to death metal. This principle applies to worship as well, you don't go into worship wanting to sing death metal but there are boundaries and we have to be able to discern those boundaries.
Being a Christian who love Rock music such as Stryper, Holy Soldier ect ect. I get exactly what you’re saying and I agree with it. Of course I listen to many other types of melodic music besides rock. Such as Josh Wilson, Casting Crowns, Mercy me. I think moderation is key. I’ve never heard this discussed In this way and I’m glad I listened to it and thank you for your perspective it has enlightened me
Im currently starting a Christian metal project, been reading all the different opinions and one thing that is weighing on my heart is the fact that metal music does encourage one to want to mosh and get wild which in turn is a form of violence. Ive been praying about it but I can't seem to break this level of conviction I have. Our bands goal is to be the counterpart to these bands like Lorna Shore, Slaughter to prevail, etc but with a true message of faith and repentence. Im learning in my walk with Christ that we do really need to put away what WE think is good for what Christ wants us to do. The music is the best ive ever written and ive sacrificed my entire life at my shop working on this project everyday, going through disipleship, getting saved, baptized, bible studies, and at the end of the day this music project led me to the church and led me to turning my life around and giving my soul to Christ which im thankful for. But there's still that level of conviction in my heart, because even devils profess Jesus is lord... Im scared that what im doing and how much ive sacraficed for this will be in vain because we're making extremely agressive music that if you were to show an african tribesman or someone in Israel this kind of music and it would be second nature that theyd think its evil. Like would it be acceptable to play this kind of music in the church? And even if there is a church that promotes metal, are they the kind of church that has Lgtbq pastors affirming peoples chosen genders? In a really tough spot becuase we want to preach the gospel but it is an appearence of evil that we are told to abstain from but on the other hand, you got people like Tosin Abasi from animals as leaders and bands like Dream Theater who push the boundries of whats humanly possible to play and then pop and trap artists that play 4 notes the whole song, so I ask which is really satanic? The ones playing the scales and chords closest to classical musical and the birth of music theory revealed by the church or a mockery of it using 4 notes in a trap beat? Seriosuly struggling with this one guys and would be nice to get some sort of clarity. The music we make has a lot of "breeeeeeessss!!!" 😂😂😂
@@DanielSantiagoForYHWH Still a little bit undecided on that. We have a few ideas floating around, but mainly been focused on the writing for the past year and working in on honing our skill and getting the best work we can possibly get together for our Lord Jesus. Still feeling convicted, the consensus right now is that we're going to put out the spiritual war drum music as a start and move onto more melodic stuff/pop punk later on, but it's still dawning on me about putting this material out. It did feel good in the moment, and it's powerful music with an amazing message but like I said in the comment, there's still that small piece of conviction I have, and you can have 99% purity of something but that 1% of poison is still poison. Idk man.
it exterme tempo that want people to mosh. I think its is above 180 bpm. mosh become a thing when hardcore punk come to be and I why Play punk rock at traditional punk tempo.
As someone who feels fairly theologically versed, and versed in metal as my primary music I listen to. I can confirm that metal can be listened to in all ecclesiastical settings, and many songs have their “times of peace” beautifully interwoven within them. Sorry Doug but I’m going to respectfully disagree wholeheartedly on this one.
As a Christian who follows Jesus, every day is a battle against the enemy. A literal BATTLE. Some of us use the help of empowering war music like Christian metal that glorifies Jesus to help stomp out Satan and the flesh. I'd say more days we need empowerment in our music rather than the soft friendly praise and worship. There is a time and place for both but I'd argue some of us need more Christian metal than the latter. But ultimately we all know Jesus is the true source of our strength but to say you can only listen to metal at certain times is ignorant to the fact that every day is WAR against darkness.
Bands and one of my favorites is demon hunter, war of ages .. if not for that connection, I would have never came to Christ in full heart, prophesied to be a teacher and pastor, my road is not complete. It still has me in a connection. This is a very rocky road that can differ in many ways and I'm more than willing with anyone to discuss what and what not according to biblical teaching and musical difference. It's a way to me, to bring others closer to God with music, granet others abuse it.a true believer will know.
I find FANILIARITY WITH THE PASSAGE makes a lot of difference to. I quite enjoy hearing the opening to Count Dankula's UA-cam videos. It is not something I would want to listen to for extended periods, and that passage on its own is one that I found little enjoyment on my first hearing it, but enjoyment now (when I know how to anticipate every turn of melody and clash of timbre. And which, in such a small dose, complements his brand.
listen to the whole song, it's a worship song about the power and glory of Almighty GOD - the tambour is completely appropriate for majesty - another point I would make is metal music a majority of the time is what I would expect a warrior to listen to. Not necessarily a sign of spiritual dilemma. On a side note, their new album is a sci-fi adventure concept.
This is where I disagree with him while I agree with him on most other things. I was a metal head for good 15 years and I have listened to all sorts of metal music that would give nightmares to some and cause psychological trauma to the others. My music was my idol. I gave it all up the day I was called to choose between the world and God. When we are drawn towards a certain genre of music, and hope to listen to some Christian version of that kind of style of music, we are fulfilling our carnal need more than anything else. For proof, read the comments. If you say otherwise, you know you are lying. When I started listening to hymns sung in choir arrangements or acapella, I had to make an effort to enjoy them. I tried to approach this genre as I did with the heavymetal music I used to listen to. So, I prayed about it, and God helped me appreciate them more and more with each passing day. Now, the genre is secondary, and the message is primary. What stirs my heart is the conviction of the Holy Spirit through the words I listen to and causes me to worship him in truth in my daily living. And there are hymns that move me in a way to stand firm in battle for Christ and they do not sound anything like this. Think about all the disciples in The Bible and the persecution and death they faced. Did they have any kind of music at all to keep them going let alone "Christian Death"? What about the ones that are persecuted and killed in mission fields? What music is befitting their occasion or their lifestyle? And just as I used to break into a song (humming or singing to myself) from Iron Maiden for example before I was born again, I still do break into a song, but those songs are hymns, and the impact they've had on me is surreal and worthy of praise and honor to God. So, goodluck breaking into a song and growling at work! Besides, different genres of metal came into being and their motivations were and still are rebellion against God, government, or refusal to remain subservient to an authority, and in some cases worshiping Satan. Some death metal and black metal bands use their music to lead many youth into worshiping the devil. There are few bands that have even burned down churches in parts of Europe. They're all talented musicians and their musicianship is nothing short of extraordinary. So, why take a genre that is pagan and evil, and make an allowance for it by slapping a Christian label on it? I would encourage you to look up Christian Berdhal on UA-cam on this issue. He has done a brilliant seminar on this and I assure you that it is going to encourage you to approach this differently and in a way that brings glory to God and not to yourself. Play this in your car out loud and tell the world you're a Christian and evangelize and see what happens. Even if it works, you'll end up gathering false converts.
Thank you for such a good response. Metal has never been my thing. But more of a classic 60s rock. It was my idol also. Timothy Leary said that he didn't necessarily need drugs to get stoned. The music alone would do the trick. If you go to some of the concerts of the Grateful Dead or Widespread Panic you will find a worship experience. They are filled with a spirit by the drugs and music. They raise their hands up and dance in worship. It's interesting how you speak of having to learn to enjoy reverential music. I believe there is a certain sense in which the world does the same thing. They want to be accepted by a certain group so they begin to learn to enjoy the fashion, the music, etc of a certain group. These are mixed together ramblings but to me the music issue is an important one.
However God is NOT genre specific. To say heavy metal can't be redeemed/reclaimed is theologically absurd. Music is a common grace given by God. I am not a fan of the death metal genre particularly I prefer bands like Stryper, Deliverance, Affector. I have also heard the ridiculous doctrine that BEING a musician is a sin because God no longer gifts people to be musicians - a very slippery interpretation of Ezekiel 28 ( tabrets and pipes ). The enemy has a big influence over the music industry but to say he owns it ALL is a bit of a stretch.
How is atonal classical music in rebellion against God? I understand what he means when he says there are times for everything. And I also understand that Paul says if it causes a brother to fall that it is a sin even if it isn’t inherently sinful in nature. But if I’m sitting around listening to Death Metal and thinking “wow the timbre of this is so unique and I love it because I hear the colors and the harmony and melody and the music that’s buried deep inside the initial sound of this genre then I think that I would technically be more understanding of art and music. There for it would help me see deeper into the mind of God and Christ and help me appreciate the different things of the world rather then just deeming it evil or sinful because I don’t have the patience or wisdom to explore what’s happening in said art and music.
For atonal classical music, John Cage (for one high profile example) thinks he's in rebellion against God. Shouldn't we take him at his own word? He doesn't believe beauty is objective (Christians must), he believes we all fundamentally are nothing (Christians believe God made us from nothing), and he thinks meaning is irrelevant (Christians are people of the Word). I can supply quotes if needed. Something about the way humans are made is tonal, not atonal. This isn't to say that every atonal composer is at John Cage's level...but the genre is.
Yes, I enjoy all. Sorts of music but I have no use for any musical style that can only express rage. And by the music I mean the music itself. Sound expresses things totally apart from the lyrics.
Most of these bands don't just straightforwardly worship Jesus in their lyrics, but rather are determined to have lyrics which are accessible to the genre as a whole, where they don't want to sound dorky so they focus on assessing Christianity and then expressing that in conformity with the worldly standards of the genre. The spiritual energy of the music is also not in agreement with the mind of Christ. Their conformity, which should be to Christ's mind and image, is rather to the world. Before I was made a new creation, I was a metal-head and punk-rock and rock-n-roller, but when I was made new I discovered I no longer valued those spirits. I'm not trying to be judgmental of people for their imperfections, I'm just offering a bit of clarity about what the spiritualities of these cultures tend to be. As God sets the Church apart from the world, eventually it becomes impossible to straddle the divide, and people will spiritual be on one side, or the other, of that gap.
You clearly know nothing about Becoming the Archetype; the music is just the medium for a message. They are unapologetically Christian in their lyrics. Skillet is far more vague lyrically on the whole in comparison, but they are acceptable because the music is more digestible.
The Christian bands always have the heaviest , most brutal breakdowns too. If our job of Christians is to spread Gods word to people who need it , I think that Metal would be the place to start
So here's some food for thought. I am at a point in my life where I am probably the most at peace I've ever been. Yet I deeply enjoy this type and style of music regularly. I guess I'm failing to see what type of music I listen to is a direct reflection of where my life is at this current moment. I enjoy listening to Metal for the sake of purely enjoying listening to metal. People will never understand how I can say I can literally put on my headphones, close my eyes and listen to something like this and I actually find it peaceful and soothing at times. Im not trying to bash anyones view here and having played in a few Christian Hard rock and Metal bands myself, the music and be very technical and skillful in terms of musicianship and quite often I feel that I have found myself in a deeper level of worship both playing and being a part of shows/concerts of bands like this. I've watched more people get saved through music like this and I've seen the churchs run those same people off because of their lack of comfort with people who don't where a suit and tie to church on Sundays.
Well, there's all sorts of folks who are "the most at peace they've ever been" and are on their way to Hell. So that's not a gauge to measure a sanctified life. As well saying "People will never understand how I can say I can literally put on my headphones, close my eyes and listen to something like this and I actually find it peaceful and soothing at times" doesn't help either. I know people who can say that about watching porn, or if they've gotten truly more deep into their depravity, torturing someone to death. But then the piece de resistance " I've watched more people get saved through music like this ..." Oh my ... now you and I both know you're being dishonest here. That's just a fact. No one has ever been saved through listening to "Christian death metal".
@@stegokitty I actually know a lot of people who found Christ through this style of music and being involved in the "scene", so you are the one being disingenuous. Are you really comparing torturing someone to death and listening to "christian death metal"? Absurd. If you want to go there, all styles of music that came after about 1700 are sinful, so say goodbye to jazz, the blues, and just about every style of music that the western world enjoys. Let me know when you are listening to specifically middle-eastern lyre and acoustic tunes.
This is just a self-righteous pastor trying to condemn the music and listeners as "sinful" in a passive-aggressive way by blaming it on "timbre" because he doesn't like it. If we want to follow his argument deeper than we all need to be prepared to throw out western music as a whole and start listening to middle-eastern acoustic music ONLY as everything else is a sin. It's absolutely ridiculous and an archaic notion of man and man alone.
@@HeyWingz //I actually know a lot of people who found Christ through this style of music and being involved in the "scene"// Really? Name one. Name a person who became a Christian THROUGH "Christian death metal". //Are you really comparing torturing someone to death and listening to "christian death metal"? Absurd.// Listen to death metal IS torture. But if you wish to respond to something I've said, you should quote what I've said, as I've done with you above, so that I know what you're talking about. //If you want to go there, all styles of music that came after about 1700 are sinful// LOL! Wow ... just wow. Talk about absurd.
@@HeyWingz Firstly, there's nothing self-righteous about Doug. Secondly, he never once says that the music is sinful. And his comments on timbre are 100% on point. It's like I've said to another bloke, try this experiment: Go to your wife, or girlfriend, or even your mother, as well as to your favorite pet, and do this -- SCREAM and GROWL "I love you". See how well that works. See if it's received in the same way as if you said it in the timbre you would be using if your were actually going to say such a thing to any one of the above. No one in his right mind plays lilting happy music at a funeral, nor do they play sad songs at a wedding. There's nothing wrong with either of those styles, per se, but they are the WRONG VEHICLE for the situation. And so it's the same with heavy metal. It's got it's place and that place is for stories of horror and the supernatural, and of violence, and war. And they sound appropriate in those contexts. They are not the proper vehicle for disseminating tender emotions, nor of calm thinking, nor of meditation, etc. Everything has its time and place. And then there's death metal. The name really speaks for itself. It was designed by men who hate Christ and who despise reality, the one that God created, and who wish to destroy music and anything meaningful in it. Again, it's designed specifically BY Christ-hating men, for the PURPOSE of blaspheming Christ. And then along comes some goofy Christians who grew up with that sound around them or discovered it and thought it resonated with something in them and so started listening to it, and wanting to play it, and they want to make it be "okay" in their Christian walk. It just doesn't work. It's ugly ... as ugly as gangsta rap ... and as ugly as modern filthy-mouthed pop music from phony Christians like Beyonce.
It's pretty funny that he says death metal is all one timbre, when later in that very track there's a beautiful section with acoustic guitar and piano. Another track on the album is a classical guitar solo.
Per your discussion about music like this only being appropriate when marching with the tanks to Battle. When did you forget? Our battle is not against flesh and blood? When did you forget as a Christian that we are at war constantly? Have you done what most Christians have done and are doing? Just sit back on the sidelines and watch the battlefield? Forgetting that once they were dying out there? what soldier volunteers for the Lords Army and then sits back on the sidelines in comfort never referring back to the rescue healing and restoration they received and desiring to rescue someone else. This music is excellent music for the occasion. It does not make me angry. It does not fill me with chaos and confusion. In the midst of Battle, I find peace. In the midst of war so thick, I know His Spirit restores, and rejuvenates me. God often uses the powerful gifting of men like becoming the archetype to inspire my soul to Battle. Death metal is a term coined by secular people to describe a category of music with a certain type of sound. Don’t get stuck on tiles like this. Holy name has coined a new term violent worship. But if you must call it, death metal just recognize the truth. I am crucified with Christ therefore I no longer live, but Christ that lives within me. come to terms with your death. Do not flee from it. Come to terms with it. Christian metal core artists like holy name and bta have come to terms with death. Many of them have faced him head on. Meanwhile, the “ Church” sits idly by. Wake up Oh, Sleeper I hope you virgins have purchased enough oil. Love you all. Take it as a rebuke in love.
"Either you don't understand your life, or you do and your life is a mess". David's life was a mess. You think all that death, blood, impaling and killing of his day wouldn't warrant music like this? You think the times we're living in, the enemy knowing his time on this earth is almost done, creating more and more vileness in the hearts of creation doesn't parallel the types of battles we face similar to back then? Open your eyes Doug Wilson, we ain't playing harps anymore. Our worship is for those ready and willing to face and fight the blackest darkness. Metal is our war cry.
I was in Rasputin music during the holidays years ago where they were playing 'Silent Night' death metal version. Needless to say I had to leave the store and couldn't even stay to get what I wanted to get. That's how horrible it was....
I like the approach in his opinion. He even used scripture to extend his conclusion. He is right. There's gonna be a time where you need to listen to something else. What helps to elevate what YHWH wants to speak to you throughout your life. I find myself listening to what is fitting for the time as well. I love metal. Always have. Always will. It's my thing. Yet, I find myself listening to many other masterpieces that aren't in the genre. In fact, you'll start to construct a beautiful list of music that is unique to your journey. I find myself excited every time I wanna jam to something. Some just are stubborn and enclosed in an identity, a persona if you will. That's dangerous. You're not meant to make another mask, you're meant to be maskless. You're not of this world anymore. You are the image of Abba. Abba is more than anything you can imagine.
I am dizzy by the circles he danced around the question. My understanding is music is more than just lyrics and professional execution of riffs. Music is mind altering and can change one's mood, spiritual health, convictions etc. I spent many years listening to this kind of music and now that I am saved, my convictions about hellish music keep me from abstaining from all appearances of evil which incorporates this kind of music. 1 Thessalonians 5:22; Philippians 4:8. I do not understand how a saved person can immerse themselves in music (or other) which imitates blaspheming and ungodly groups.
At least he brought up classical music. Many satanists pride themselves of being classical musicians and denounce. This was specifically mentioned in the Nikolas Shrek/Zeena LaVey interview with Bob Larson. There is some choral music dedicated to Lucifer that makes the skin crawl - ua-cam.com/video/gfG9aJzFPd4/v-deo.html
Some have said the same about Jazz. Some have said the same about introducing intervals _other than the octave_ into Gregorian Chant! Have you anything to say which would warrant your claims if your own experience being normative to others sir? Have you? Have you? Have you?
I love Christian rock and metal when I’m lifting heavy weights, but lately I’ve enjoyed contemporary worship (Kari Jobe) the vast majority of the time.
So obviously, anyone who knows Becoming the Archetype beyond the 10-second clip knows that their songs are extremely varied in "tambor" as he says. But before I knee-jerk react to this, what he's saying (in general) is something I agree with--mainly that if this is the ONLY thing you listen to you might want to reconsider your musical diet and introduce some variety for separate occasions (mourning, celebration, anger, power, worship etc.) That being said, I know a WHOLE LOT of people who only listen to contemporary worship who could stand to do the same "broadening of their horizon," but they typically get let off the hook a little easier in that regard because their brand of music is more culturally acceptable.
Hey Doug, I really think you should do another one of these but (and also because 😂) you'd probably have to recant at least part of what you said, because these guys mix up a lot of different "tambor" as you put it. The track in mind is deep heaven. It won't be hard to find because it's on this same album⬆️ By the way, you would appreciate the end track, "end of the age".
A lot can be said about the theology and arguments made by these two gentlemen but what gets me the most is the fact that they listened to just 18 seconds of the song, then say, "Ok. that's enough." chuckle and discuss the song, it's timbre and lyrics. The song is 6:31 long, fellas. It'd be nice if these two came back, now 10 years later, and did a legitimate "Boomer Pastors react to Christian Death Metal" video to this same song. I wonder if their thoughts would remain the same or if they would have a different perspective. Maybe during this gap they've met a fan of Christian Metal and determined that their life is just a mess? I find it very legalistic to say that you must listen to many genres of music and only according to the state of life you're in. Maybe that's not what Pastor Doug meant but it was what I received.
We are in a war everyday! We war against ourself, we war against the devil and we war against the world. "The kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force" so take God's kingdom forcebly and embody the One that gave it to us to be a part of, because but for the grace of God I would be defeated by myself, the devil and the world. (Tbh, I still suffer defeats sometimes but quitting is not an option, fight on Christian soldier). If anything Christian heavy metal band's have their purpose, but only if their message elevates Christ and spurns, rebukes and encourages you to press on in this spiritual war. Turn up the timbre I say! 🙌
Analyze song, listens to 20 seconds...umm the song is over 6 minutes. How can one analyze a whole sub genre of Christian music with 20 seconds? Seems very short sighted. I think a better format would be listen to the song and talk to the artist(if possible) would love to see Jason talk with him about it. Maybe he just lacks the knowledge of how this type of music has brought people to the faith?
You’d probably find most Christian’s that prefer metal over the grotesque depraved “hits” all over our work radios, don’t listen to just the one band, there’s many Christian bands that would be considered “heavy” but I find a lot of more modern heavier Christian bands will mix it up with beautiful cleans and soulful melody to contrast the wall of noise, but I can understand what you’re saying, for a while I’ve believed music influences your behaviour, thought process etc but what you’ve said makes so much sense, I used to feel drained when I would listen to heavy music for months on end and now I switch it up with some acoustic folk Lo fi stuff as well as podcasts and now scripture from time to time. But I agree it’s not a sin to listen to heavy music especially if the intent is in the right place but maybe we should be more aware of not over saturating our mind with it
As a Christian, and as a metalhead who also likes extreme metal, I’d say that extreme metal is probably inappropriate for church. But traditional heavy metal like Stryper could work with properly worshipful lyrics.
I don’t listen to Christian death metal but I LOVE Payable On Death, Five Iron Frenzy, Supertones, Pillar, 12 Stones, Skillet, Thousand Foot Krutch and Project 86! And I still listen to secular music too
I grew up listening to death metal. You are 1000% correct. The tambor affects the mind. You go in a death metal circle of people, and they are mostly hyper aggressive people, which was part of the attraction for me. Being defined by my peers as 'hard core' was a label of pride. Funny that as you learn to appreciate other music forms, the heart and mind soften. This is blasphemy to people in the DM scene. DM also uses mostly minor based chord progressions, mixed with very tribalistic drum parts, that in other regions of the world could be considered as calling on demons. Not the lyrics, but merely the music itself. I would label the music as being 'an anti-joyous sound'. Even though I am still attracted to a lot of it, I am no longer interested in the conditioning of the mind aspect that it brings. For sure, if we are to emulate Christ, then the conditioning that this music brings is moving in an opposing direction. I would not say that it would make someone 'unsaved', I don't believe it has that much power. I also don't believe that God is willing to let go of someone who has called on his name that easily. But it does stifle sanctification somewhat.
i would think that those who would be drawn to christian death metal would be people with tough times in their current life... I wouldnt imagine anyone listening strictly to christian death metal... however I would say in Matthew 10:34 "Think not I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword"........ maybe christian death metal adherents would equate the grunginess of the metal to Gods displeasure with mans sin? Im just thinking out loud. Its not for me but to each his own.
🙄 ugh every time I hear this I just think so play the song how great though art by them and play the whole song and say the same thing. These guys are Christian and are great musicians, this is how we divide the church. Most people that listen to Christian metal also enjoy a wide range of music, the stereotype is kinda sad it’s like because they haven’t moved on from 90s or 80s contemporary music no one else understands it. I’m a Christian and washed up screamer so speaking from the view point of the band here.
Thank you! I hate that metal music has been so stereotyped. So once my gain knob goes past 5, then it's a sin?? Or when my quarter notes are exchanged for triplets, then it's a sin??? I'm a reformed guy and that's nonsense to me. I'm a huge metal-head, grew up deep in sin, played in an active metal band for about 7 years. Since God saved me, He has carried me out of many bad things, and convicted me to quit the remaining things. It's been a long time since I listened to all the worldly rap, but just recently I've felt convicted to stop listening to a bunch of metal bands and songs. It started with songs that glorified evil, then any song that used God's name in vain, going through lyrics and finding all this inexcusable stuff. Then I was convicted to stop listening to my favorite metal band, lamb of god. Just the band name is blasphemous to God. It's not easy cutting out all these songs, not easy, but they are inexcusable, and I want God more... So, I've been searching for Christian metal bands to replace all the music I've cut out, and it's really hard to find Christian metal that serves my taste(thrash, groove, technical). Many bands go for the black metal sound, and while I like blast beats, I don't like 4 minutes of nonstop blast beat. After cutting all the worldly and blasphemous music out, I'm convicted that the lyrics, artwork, and members of the band are all that matter. Most people are stuck in the old thinking that all metal is bad, but I really don't believe that. By the way, I've been trying to learn to scream(false chord and fry) and it's not easy.
basically there is nothing wrong with it but because it's not traditional or contemporary, because to the church system as a whole it's a difficult sell... There is no acceptance or place to be found for these people and they will have to wander in a twilight zone between being rejected by their fellow Christians and and rejected by the counterculture the are actively ministering to. That is what is being said, but the "Christian" country, and pop and contemporary that is played in almost every church and get radio time but is filled with people that reject scripture, live like the devil, and espouse false doctrines, that's not near as much of a threat to the gospel or the modern church system because it's relatively sanitized and easy to sell. This is also what is being said.
Make war on your sin. Kill it. Can't it be true that the kid listening is stirring up himself to resist and fight temptation and sin with a combat like fervor? Based on the possibly appropriate setting of combat mixed with Owen's encouragements from Mortification of Sin... I can see another option. Another thing that should be considered is how a Christian artist creates. We create because we are made in the image of a God who creates. We create from what he created out of nothing and we reflect true things about God through art for his glory. I can see death metal tambour reflecting similar things as a violent storm and the lyrics representing light entering into darkness and offering hope in the midst of wrath.
Maybe. Couldn't it also be true that the kid has the wrong tool for the job and is subjecting himself to a genre that was founded to celebrate death, gore, and other obscene things? "Death Metal" didn't get its name because the genre's first bands were reading Owen's Mortification of Sin.
Hmm... I am just a guy on the internet, but I would respectfully offer a suggestion to prayerfully consider the degree to which taste may have had a little too much influence on decrement. The scripture referenced in the video seems like quite a stretch at times and the use of "We sang a dirge and you did not mourn, we played the flute and you did not dance" is taking a verse way out of context. The author had no intention of showing certain music has a fitting environment... This type of cherry picking verses out of context trying to defend a preconceived opinion is one of the strong reasons for exposition. I have nothing but respect for Doug and I genuinely mean this as something to consider and have no desire to quarrel or wander into vanity here.
No interest in quarreling either! I am enjoying the discussion (but if you're not we can be done!). Don't you think taste is often used as reason for listening to certain genres as well? What makes whose taste right? It's obvious that some music is appropriate in certain contexts and not in others. Say, lullaby vs gameday music. There has to be some objective standards we can measure music against -- and I'd say the standard for aesthetics is given in Phil 4:8: we're supposed to evaluate what is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, or praiseworthy.
@@CanonPress That is referring to what type of thoughts that should occupy our mind and the context of the epistle has no reference to physical aesthetics as you would apply to art except perhaps your inspiration for creating some work of art since that would naturally flow from the things that you think about. That is still a moral quality of beauty. I think you might have a better case if you referenced the repeated focus of making a joyful song, but even this does not forbid expressions of mourning or expressions of other emotions if made in an accurate light. Singing of God's sovereignty as a dirge as if to lament the fact that God is sovereign is obviously inappropriate. This seems to be more in accord with the verses that tell us to bear with each other when ones conscience is not bothered by an act and another's is. No one should crank up Christian death metal with Doug in the car if he cannot listen to it out of faith. But likewise, I am not sure Doug should be saying it is wrong for someone to worship and praise God through and entire genre of music if their conscience is not bothered and he is not able to provide more scripturally sound reason why Christians shouldn't create or consume that specific niche of art. I do have questions about the image this casts. Does it clearly convey the message it is supposed to? Or is it more likely to send a message about God being chaotic and psychotic? I would not handle it casually if I was an artist creating death metal Christian music. There seems to be a very narrow range of true things you can say about God and a very wide range of ways you might glorify dark and evil things. Screaming "Jesus is Lord" as if it is a painful thing says more than just what the lyrics on paper would say.
My worship leader was actually a member of the band. Best worship leader I’ve ever played under. Genuine believer with strong believes and huge theological knowledge.
awesome!
They just put out another album!
Well, part of the problem is that your church has a "worship leader" in the first place. The "worship leader" is an elder, typically a teaching elder, who leads the congregation in worship, which is the hearing of the reading and preaching of the Word; the prayers; the sacraments; the collection, the benediction, and that sort of thing. There might be a person who leads the music, but calling the singing specifically "worship" relegates the rest of the aforementioned as something less than worship, now doesn't it?
@@Daniel-vp2on it's their best album yet I think. Although this album dichotomy is my favorite still. Doug really needs to reanalyze what he thinks about metal and listen to their track deep heaven with all the piano breaks and other genres mixed in. 👍
Theological knowledge doesn't mean much. Are they living Bible principles?
Sex before marriage. Substance abuse. Homosexuality. Etc.
There are some people who prefer to consistently listen to a certain form of music in spite of whatever mood they're in. That doesn't mean they misunderstand their lives or that their lives are a mess. There are times where I listen to beautiful classical or contemporary Christian worship music when my life really is a mess or when I'm sad/angry/whatever, simply because I feel listening to said music can be calming despite the fact that the lyrics tend to not relate to my situation in the moment. Then there are times where I'm in great shape, I'm happy, life is going great and I feel deeply connected with God spiritually, yet I'll listen to stuff like death metal (BTA is an awesome one though my personal favorite of the genre is Hope for the Dying), metalcore, or whatever and equally enjoy it then.
I have no desire to rebel against God intentionally, and I feel in a deeper connection with Christ than I have in YEARS today (and the past few days as well, hopefully this continues as I hate feeling distant), yet I just finished listening to the album that song is from. Do I misunderstand my life? No. There are some uncertainties going on right now, but there are always uncertainties (your next breath, my next heartbeat, those are uncertain as we aren't guaranteed the next moment by any means). Honestly, I'd say I understand my life and understand God at a deeper level now than I have in ages, and frankly, it's THANKS to music like this. Bands such as BTA have lyrics that I can relate with in my struggles, yet feel like they celebrate with me in the triumphs God has had in my life. When I struggle with feeling emotionally disconnected with God (as I have off and on for the past three years now), their lyrics encourage me. When I feel like this, where I feel like I understand and experience Christ at an extremely deep level, their lyrics encourage me further by reminding me of from where Christ has delivered me and the place in which I stand has become His triumph over darkness and sin in my life.
Now am I going to go out and listen to Satanist, anti-Christian bands because I feel secure in my faith? No. I feel the Holy Spirit convict me when I hear something He doesn't want me to further pursue and I try to always heed His warnings. However, if the music praises God, aims to encourage Christians, or discusses life struggles with a message of hope, there's nothing wrong with listening to those bands and there's nothing wrong with listening to them whenever you want to.
In short, you can listen to whatever genre of music you'd like whenever you like and you won't be sinning. However, if you feel the Spirit convicting you to stop listening to a band, listen to Him.
well said
Christian metal is the response by believers who understand that we are in a war, by the very nature of our existence; and that most other Christians are blind to this war, such that we feel that we stand alone. We must put on the armor of God every day. For some of us, Christian metal functions as our armor bearer. At the same time, I speak for many when I say that there are not too many enjoyable artists in the arena of "upbeat sounding" major key tonality music--especially on the topic of lyrics, and of these, many can come across as watered down or even apostate upon closer inspection. Incidentally, Christian metal can serve as a way to reach people who won't go to a traditional church, but will go to a rock concert.
“End of the Age” is Becoming the Archetype’s best song. From a Reformed lens of the scriptures, the lyrics are beautiful. Christ is Grand, Majestic and His law is Highly Grand. Every time I listen to that song and ponder the lyrics, I can’t help but think about Romans 9 and particularly 1 Corinthians 15 in that Christ is and has been in the process of putting ALL His enemy’s under His feet through the ages... While all of history is moving towards the Great Day of the Lord in which Christ will get the last say so and the good of those who love Him will inherit the earth. The song reminds me that to think I am apart of that in spite of my sin/ short coming’s and solely upon Christ grace alone through faith alone is truly beyond me.
i cry everytime i listen to this song. I fall to my knees and worship the Master of Heaven. He is truly merciful despite my past sins and current. All Praise to Yahuah!!!
Ironically, this band has an enormous range in their full catalogue, including many, many beautiful acoustic guitar pieces in the classical style
But only one tamber…this wasn’t a fair assessment and it presumed chaos in ones life because of the music they enjoy. That is false.
yeah this is the second subject on which i'm not sure Doug is completely correct. but I still respect him, and share many other views with him. hes also saying music that he thinks sounds good is the better music to listen to.
Man, I saw BTA back in like 2002 or 03 or something in a dive ass bar in SLC. They were supposed to open for Nevermore, but Nevermore didn't show up. It's the first time I heard this band they blew me away. Been a fan ever since.
Exactly and honestly the type of expression. Largely misunderstood brings me a lot of calm and peace and their drummer is actually the worship leader at my church. And. Is very classically based and can release endorphins and fight anxiety
This is extremely ignorant
I am a follower of Jesus Christ. There's a war, so put on the full armor, hit play and kick butt!
Straight up *regular* death metal has lyrics that are more theologically sound than what passes for Christian contemporary music these days...
Exactly what I've been saying for quite a while
Truth
Absolutely true.
Mortification my beloved
Agree, Disturbed made one of the most Christian song ever, Innocence.
Your observations are mirrored somewhat by the creator of the album "Hellig Ustvart." He said that it was difficult to write Christian black metal that wasn't about being against Satan and his influence. I would say that death metal as a genre can have a wide range of emotions, not just rage. I've listened to death metal songs showing grief, triumph, love, and other emotions. Saying that death metal songs are just about one emotional stage because it utilizes intense instrumentation is like saying pop songs are just about lust because so many songs contain sexual suggestive lyrics. It's an incomplete view. To be fair, it's a commonly held incomplete view.
Totally right about Christian black metal my friend! Hortor has no restraint in that department 😂. I especially liked their album titles.... "Ancient satanic rituals are crushed to dust" is the best imo. I really don't like black metal but I very much appreciate the energy they put into it and their zeal in their work to expose the Devil.
Imma be honest, I've been born and raised in a Christian household, I love God with all my being, he's saved me from death on several occasions.
And the funny thing is, I listen to metal basically 24/7, my favorite bands are Wolves At The Gate, August Burns Red, War of Ages, Demon Hunter, Fit For A King, Phinehas & Becoming The Archetype. Yet when people meet me, when word does get back to me, they always are like "That dude was pretty cheerful/optimistic" or I leave a positive impact of some kind. It really irritates me when people say stuff like "that guy must not he happy because he listens to so much metal." I was born, raised & believe the So. Baptist doctrine, but I can't help but to disagree with a lot of what was said in this one sided discussion.
My point in saying this, is to those who might read this comment, and you feel like listening to the music you love is somn bad, don't, so long as it doesn't go against what the Bible says or what God has commanded us to do, then it is fine, enjoy what you want, be it Veil of Maya or Impending Doom, if it does not speak out against the Lord.
Oh yeah Wolves at the Gate ftw!
I grew up in the black church, as a heavy listener of metal, and I remember at one fellowship service I was wearing a shirt from c28 that had a scripture from revelation, and said “Faithful Until Death” with a skull on it. A guy roughly my age walks up to me in a suit after service and points at my shirt with an uncomfortable look on his face and says “hey man do you know what *that* means?” (Pointing at the skull). I was confused. He repeats the question and then says “bro, the skull is death and flesh and demonic tendencies.” I looked back at him and asked him if he even read the shirt. He did not. I pointed to the scripture then told him, the skull was merely a graphic to represent the scripture. (Aside from the fact everyone in the building literally has a skull in their own head, by design lol). He just shakes it off tells me to “be careful”. I really honestly didn’t understand any of that interaction over my T-shirt because it seemed like a joke almost, but it was telling about the church’s one-sided untested opinion on certain matters. Shortly after that, I wanted to do something dramatic so about a month later we had a youth service at our own church, and I was a worship leader. I opened service by playing Underneath The Gun’s “Deathcard”. Over the speakers. Needless to say, they were not feeling it 😂.
I read some study recently showing that metal listeners are happier than most people.
@@AndyWrasman I've heard about that study, from my experience, it seems to be true. Nine times out of ten, when I've met a metalhead who wasn't happy, it's because they had something difficult going on.
@@garrettmccullough2249 Yep! Wolves At The Gate for life!
Before I was saved by The Grace of The Father and the Love of Jesus Christ, I was deep into occultism and I enjoyed lots of metal and rock bands that were blatantly occult in their views and texts. After I was saved by Jesus I threw it all away and now I still enjoy metal, but bands that are by Christians. I often find myself glorifying God through many types of music including Christian metal.
im right there with ya brother.
Amen
hallelujah brother. Well I think but that's my opinion that as long as the lyrics don't glorify the devil or blaspheme you can also hear other metal bands. If you only go after that, you shouldn't listen to hip hop, blues, soul and others ;). God protect you all.
Thank you Lord Jesus Christ that we Christians are all saved by Grace 🧎❤️🙏
any examples? ^^
LOL, Doug's face when he hears the music for the first time... LOLOLOL!
😂
That this only now came into my recommended videos, given my music viewing and my viewing of Canon Press (& adjacent) content, indicates astonishing weakness in UA-cam's algorithm.
I said the exact same thing haha
Same!
Forreal lol faith and music is a rough one for me
@@tylerbasham1491 Oh, I pretty well sorted out my convictions on the matter years ago. I just would have liked to be part of the interactions on this long before it was a relic by UA-cam standards.
Touring in a Christian metal band for a good part of my adult life, i can tell you that this music allows you to relate to the darkest corners of humanity and brings light to it.
Um ... no one needs death metal to "relate to the darkest corners of humanity". We've got that built-in. Bring it to light? Why would we want to bring the darkest corners of humanity to light?
@@RanlamSeddit Really? The writer of the OP didn't say that I misunderstood. Do you have access to his mind? Mind spending a moment actually supporting your claim rather than making a vague assertion?
@@stegokitty Bringing light into the darkness and bringing the darkness to the light are both necessary in this day and age. You may find this hard to believe but metal heads are actually way more primed for spiritual encounters than those depraved souls feeding their brains with contemporary pop music and all the more nuanced subtleties of it's morally bankrupt messaging. “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”
@@troyerthedestroyer I’m guessing that you are referring to Christian metalheads rather than to metalheads in general. To that, I would have to say “Well I should certainly hope so, seeing as they’re Christians, no matter how misguided they are”. But if you mean metalheads in general, you are sadly mistaken, as there’s no quantifiable difference, spiritually speaking, between the two. Lost is lost is lost. The problem that I’m (primarily) speaking of is that there’s no recognizable difference in how secular metal sounds and that of its Christian counterpart. It sounds the same. You’ve got people growling and talking like an idiot Cookie Monster for no good reason. How does that have anything whatsoever to do with Christianity? And it’s all so tired and trite and worn out. Totally unoriginal. Even the ridiculous, indecipherable logos look the same. Like I said in another comment, it’s basically like saying Christian Porn.
Glad Doug didn’t completely write off the genre. I remember a time when Christian metal was about all I listened to. End of The Age specifically was so good I listened on repeat for a few months. I have grown to appreciate a balance of genres since then and I still come back to End of The Age. “With the valleys of the seas exposed and the surface of the Earth laid bare! He reached down into the void! He reached down and took hold of me!”
The “death” in death metal I believe comes from the band Death, with chuck being the front man and performing intricately while screaming lyrics in his tone. I don’t believe the death comes from literal death-inducing energy.
Also the very concept of death for a Christian is not the same scary and mysterious idea that it is for the masses.
Yep. I've always been under the impression that Death, the band, basically combined traditional heavy metal with speed metal/
thrash to create Death Metal. Obviously many bands have extrapolated on that, getting more technical or otherwise, but you can hear traditional heavy metal and thrashy stuff in most death metal.
it does come from that energy lol
@@JordanTheImpaler69the band is still called death. we need to stop asociatiing ourselves with those things. Look to Jesus the on who gives life, the on who IS life!
@@YosefA.Charis I found Christ Jesus in October 2020. Ever since then, He has given me victory over the worst of my sins. I have a very personal relationship with Him that is more important to me than anything in this world or otherwise. He is my path, to which I am daily trying to align myself to.
And yet, I can still appreciate death metal. It's okay if you don't want to listen to it, but don't assume that, just because the word 'death' is used, it's something that must be avoided by all other Christians outside yourself. If you're not into it, you're not into it. If you can find me any scripture that indicates that we should not listen to heavy music that just happens to be defined in a genre that contains the word 'death', I am willing to stand corrected.
They are all over the spectrum with all sorts of styles incorporated. The Epigone is one of the greatest, most victorious worship songs I’ve ever heard.
There’s nothing that I can say
That hasn’t already been said
I’m just repeating myself
Repeating someone else
I’m equally incapable of uttering a single new thought
But You are ever worthy of adoration
So how can I for a moment
Cease to lift my heart in praise?!
Your name is Glory
My song is victory
I will keep on singing
Your name is Glory
My song is victory
There is no opposition
There is no opposition
There is no opposition
Nothing…
Can stand…
In Your way!!!
Make my life Your own
Make my life…
Your own
Just as important as the lyrics are how the they are told. The music in that song is incredible. When I hear that song I think of king David dancing so hard his clothes fell off. Can’t do that with most most modern Christian music.
And, yes, to what he was talking about the northern pagans getting amped up using a timbre such as this. It’s testosterone. It’s like the fight song going into a stadium, the gym, or battle. I’m burnt out on weak, limp wristed contemporary worship songs. I’m not saying there’s no place for contemporary worship. But I enjoy something that has some grunt to it. This is in-fact a spiritual war.
The problem with Doug’s take, or anyone’s for that matter after only hearing part of this one song, is that BtA’s Dichotomy has anything but one timbre. That’s what made these guys so special. This album and the debut are extremely diverse. His comment also seems to imply that those who listen to this music may only listen to this kind of music. I personally don’t know a metal fan who only listens to metal.
I am pleased Doug talks alot about the importance of context!
One can argue the Christian life is about warfare! Also bands like Mortification and Stryper have amazing lyrics.
Becoming the Archetype had me in floods of tears with the track Breathing Light summing up the end of the book of Revelation in a beautiful and savage way.
I listen to heavy/death metal when lifting heavy weights. That's the time and place.
Amen!
You're not lifting heavy enough.
@@duncescotus2342 I can't disagree!
@@orospakr A true athlete for Christ. Ok, just like Paul Anderson. I bless your ministry. Watch it take off!
@@michaelsilveradventure5712 I would think Taylor Swift would piss you off into a superhumanly strong state.
Although I would agree with what Doug says, I think people forget other attributes of music. The type of music you listen to all the time is so subjective and chosen for your life at that moment. I use to listen to nothing but the so called "death metal music" for a long time. I didn't do it though because I was in a dark place or was ready to go war, but because it actually relaxed me, because I would listen to it, and be amazed at some of the stuff that these people would play.
I actually had the opportunity the meet and hangout with the people from becoming the archetype. They actually didn't really like to play the music they made because they simply grew out of it. But the reason they keep making it, and playing it is because there are people out there who only listen to this kind of music, and becoming the archetype would be ashamed if they stopped reaching those people.
But yes to say it is of the devil is crazy. God has used this band many times in my life. Check out these lyrics from there song end of the age
The earth is shaking
Because of His wrath
The mountains tremble
At the sound of His voice
He pulls down the sky
To crush His enemies
He descends upon them with fire
He is clothed in greatness
His voice resounds throughout the earth
His vengeance no longer is contained
His light destroys the darkness
If He speaks the earth will crumble
If He moves the universe will fall
He is clothed in greatness
His voice resounds throughout the earth
With the valleys of the seas exposed
And the surface of the earth laid bare
He reached down into the void
He reached down and took hold of me!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Man, I got chills just reading the lyrics.
I love it.
A lot of metalcore band members don’t listen to metal, they just grew out of it or are around it so much that it gets old. I like most genre’s of music but metal will always be my favorite
How am I not surprised that two grandfather's don't understand loud music lol. Can't even pretend to be shocked
"Either you don't understand your life, or your life is a mess." Or... you just like MeTaL! :)
When he called atonal classical music a rebellion against God (4:24) I actually laughed out loud.
No kidding! That was enough to make me completely disregard anything else he said
He has his own opinion, though
@@aryeh24 I don't like how he phrased it as fact
@@DarthCalculus i get it
I don’t think he was saying it’s rebellious for being atonal or classical in the instrumentation. I think he meant the intent of the majority of the people in that genre. But i don’t know anything about the character of people involved in that genre of music so I won’t speak on that. I could be wrong he may be saying the instrumental composition is rebellious in itself. I don’t really understand why that would be the case because it seems kind of arbitrary. But maybe he’s onto something with the Ecclesiastes thing. I don’t have that doctrine solid enough to go around saying certain musical frequencies are rebellious or heretical. It seems to come down to the intent of the heart and the message being put forth. Maybe sounds have messages? No clue 🤔
I feel as though death metal music fits into the feel of my life. I’ve experienced so much trauma and problems with mental health throughout my life and metal music in general makes me feel like I’m strong enough to actively fight in the spiritual warfare I’ve gone through my whole life. We’re all in this war as humans, especially for us in the Kingdom of God. It has been a fight to not end my own life in many seasons of my life.
Now I thank Christ Jesus for all of these problems, because it made me accept God’s unequaled love.
I’ve recently been experiencing a lot of noticing just how “not of the world” I’ve been my whole life. None of my family listens to metal like I do, and all of my friends who are into metal do not know the Lord. I’ve never fit in anywhere I’ve been.
The schemes of the enemy will not prosper because God will never abandon us. I trust Him in that He is more powerful than any of His creations, including the enemy. I feel His presence when I listen to metal. I feel His love when I’m crying. I trust Him because He has never ONCE let me down. All suffering is ultimately for my benefit, as He knows it builds character. He surpasses any of the metal I could ever find.
I would say that Jason Wisdom, the founder of this band, would be willing to do an interview with Doug 🤷🏻♂️
I sent him the link. Maybe so... im interested on his thoughts.
I just put the related video links into the description. Thanks for the question!
Christian metal reflects the lament psalms, which are for different kinds of occasions. Some people's lives set them up for laments more so than hymns.
This album is a masterpiece!
Agreed! But there is a time and place for it.
Never thought I would hear pastor Doug react to becoming the archetype! Love it!. But Doug, you should have listened to the whole song! Lots of different "tamber?" in that one song alone! No genre covers so many different styles and tones as metal does. Metal bands can be very soft and very heavy and everything in between.
Timbre
Something wrong with you bud
@@elijahgrajkowski2505 is it really? I googled it and tamber refers to musical tones and matched what Doug was saying perfectly. Oh well, "Timbre" then. I'm Australian so it sounds like he is saying tamber to me.
@@Im_No_Expert_72 Maybe. And you too if you have read you're Bible.
@@hgpilott It is spelled "timbre" and pronounced "tambre". :)
If it weren't for Christian metal i wouldn't be a believer in christ today. People are different and God knows us, as well as how to reach us. He speaks stronger to me through metal than any standard worship song ever has. Metal has litterally brought me to tears of joy and physically brought me to my knees in pure awe of Gods wonder. Metal is not just angry music for a certain time and place. It is just as valid a form of worship as any regular Kind of worship.
All this kind of gatekeeping is achieving, is pushing people who is in desperate need of Christ, further away from Him, and I pity both them as well as the man who think he knows what God deems as fitting worship.
Amen.
We-e-ell... I agree with the general point, and during the time of my life when I was listening all metal, all the time, I was working through some issues, so granted. But "End of the Age" is one that you really have to listen all the way through and on a good sound system. Throughout the song, the tone does change, and the effect in the end, at least to me, is one of a thunderstorm ending with a drenching, cleansing rain. And to someone who understands metal a bit better and doesn't hear someone shouting and immediately get stuck on the emotion of anger, the metal growling in this song suggests grandeur rather than fury. Listening to five seconds through a cellphone speaker... I'm gonna question that methodology for analyzing a whole song. No disrespect, just saying.
Yes and their other material make use of many different timbres and dynamics. Acoustic , piano passages, a whole flamenco song. More progressive metal than death, although the vocals do take some getting used to. And yeah… most music sounds terrible listening through a cellphone speaker…especially metal.
Exactly, I don't know of any genre that covers as many tones and emotions as metal. And also, it's one of the few genres that Christians do better than the world.
Gonna have to agree with you guys here. When I’m in the gym, I usually listen to Gospel music. But, certain levels of effort in the gym require a bit of aggression. So, I have found For Today, Fit for a King, Impending Doom, and In the Midst of Lions to befitting for those times. Then again, sometimes I just feel like listening to that type of music and I don’t see anything wrong with that. As long as it’s edifying Christ and the Church with the lyrics…what’s the issue?
Anyone saying all extreme metal has only one timbre hasn't listened to much metal
True
But it always has a predominant timbre, that’s why it’s called metal and not reggae.
^Found the guy who doesn't listen to metal
Would you say the same of dynamics?
most extreme metal has screaming. only thrash is singing that I know of.
You are wrong. Philippians 4:8 says to focus on beautiful and edifying things. I am a musician and it is much too hard for me to worship in the conventional standard of worship music. Let’s not forget that heavy metal has been associated with sex, drugs and rebellion. Caught a bad rap from the beginning and that has indoctrinated the masses in associating rock with evil. Just because a songs timbre may be on the darker end, doesn’t make it evil or make the persons life who listen to it a mess. I am very strong in my faith undeterred with a wife and four beautiful children. We all believe in Jesus our Savior and I lead this family by example. It’s the individual’s own perception on how they react to the genre of music. A wonderful band called Bloodlines have put in me tears with their style of worship because I feel the Holy Spirit every time I listen to them. It moves me and makes me want more of Him. Never could get that with contemporary worship or hymns. 1 Corinthians 10:31 says whether you drink or eat, or whatever you do, do it in the glory of God. This is not a perversion of His word. He is to be glorified in everything that we do.
That album had How Great Thou Art on it. Great album!
One of my favorites.
Probably one of my favorite lyricists in the industry overall.
Becoming the Archetype 🤘
P.S. The reason it's called Death Metal is because the band that pioneered the sound was named Death.
I love Becoming the Archetype so much and not only would I put this album, Dichotomy, in my top 10, but that song, The End of the Age, is my favorite track and it always brings me to glorious tears as I sing Hallelujah at the end!
That said, Doug is completely right. I couldn't listen to nothing but BtA or August Burns Red, or In the Midst of a Lions all the time. I need music that brings me peace and tranquility more often than I need music to get excited with. Nothing beats the classic hymns.
Come Thou Fount:
Oh, to grace how great a debtor
Daily I'm constrained to be
Let Thy goodness like a fetter
Bind my wandering heart to Thee
Prone to wander, Lord I feel it
Prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart, oh take and seal it
Seal it for Thy courts above
How Deep the Father's Love for Us:
Behold the man upon a cross
My sin upon His shoulders
Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers
It was my sin that held Him there
Until it was accomplished
His dying breath has brought me life
I know that it is finished
Blessed Assurance:
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God
Born of his Spirit, washed in His blood
And every single lyric of In Christ Alone
You mentioned the band Theocracy but didn’t give any thoughts on it; would like to hear that since it is a very different genre from what was sampled here
A lot of what Doug said here is the wrongful perception that people have of metal-heads. We actually feel happy listening to it much of the time, or at least I do. It’s hard to beat a great riff and I love playing them. If you don’t like it that is fine but I don’t think it has to be either or. Just my two cents.
I did not hear Doug saying that listening to metal is inconsistent with being happy.
230 Sunday afternoon? I listen to this on the way home from church. With my wife and sons in the vehicle with me.
There is no way to give an informed opinion of this band without listening (to at least) an entire song. But I appreciate you giving it listen.
I feel like the clip was chosen to elicit a negative reaction from the pastor, but he handled it quite well and with an open mind. We need more of that in the church
Even before I was in Christ, I couldn’t stand any version of death metal. I’ve never been able to tolerate music where I can’t understand the lyrics and where there is just screaming, yelling, and a militant, loud, driving tone *all* of the time.
I have loved metal music, but becoming Christian, I grew against it, even the Christian kind. Not because it is satanic but because I do not find it genuine worship to God. The lyrics are incomprehensible, it is just supposed to be noise, and a good load of the music is intended to attract the attention of many. If the lyrics are incomprehensible, how can you trust that the song is theologically sound? How can you wholly worship God with words of truth in your song of praise? I don't know the heart(s) of the artist(s) but metal, no, ALL MUSIC, is not made to gain the attention of man and to please them as well, but rather to worship God in spirit and truth.
@@yuypergollece6187 it's not worship music. It's just music. Christian mainstream music sucks for the most part and modern "worship" is more satanic than any metal
@@CCSI322 there's plenty of Christian metal "worship" but sometimes it feels like it's more worshipping the audience than God Himself.
But yes, you have a point.
I want to avoid secular music for the worst part but I can't turn on the radio and listen to something like K-POP radio lest they start blasting Reckless Love in my ears.
One can always read the lyrics, then they can pick up the pronunciation.
This song clearly raises your heart rate and adrenaline. It activates your fight or flight. Regardless of how the lyrics and beat make you feel (triumph, pain, wonder, etc), the timbre will always succeed in making you wanna run or punch someone. So I agree with the pastor that there's a time and place.
I could agree, though there are billions of occasions in one’s life, some of which would clearly be fitting for both war and hate (justly so). This criticism seems to suggest neither of those times may be important which is counterintuitive to his own statement.
It’s somewhat interesting yet 1. There could not exist a genre of art nor music that god could not produce good out of. I think he simplifies that too much. 2. He extrapolates “tamber” AND musicianship to a fairly a literal extent but likely would not do so relative to modern worship music! A majority of which is simply pitiful. 3. His last comment referring to peoples lives being a mess: A partial point of the Old Testament is that we are a mess without God. Your life may not have to be a mess to appreciate that fact, and therefore this music, which glorifies God and may or may not unction one to appreciate such a statement.
Oh, and please don’t forget how classical music invokes similar parts of the brain, inducing adrenaline rushes, stimulating fight or flight, etc…
@@logansmith8553 There is a time and place. Note that this statement does not say that there isn't a time. Note that this statement does not say none of these times are important. It says there is a time. Kindly reanalyse.
@@odanedmcdonald See my actual criticisms and re-analyze thanks
> the timbre will always succeed in making you want to run or punch somebody
That's an incredibly strong claim, that can be disproven if anyone were to fall asleep while listening to it-which I have.
Tuning into 8.5 minutes of the meditative drone of Fall on Your Knees (Holy Name) is like putting on the Armor of God piece by piece.
"Tommy Greene explains the need for Christian Metalcore" is a great interview on this topic.
I was a Christian who played extreme metal in my teens (I’m 43 now), and later lost my faith and continued in a secular - and lyrically negative - vein.
I still resonate with Christian themes, so I’m pretty qualified to talk about this.
You can appreciate extreme music on different levels. Most death metal fans basically ignore the lyrics. For one thing, most of the lyrics are borderline unintelligible. For another thing, some of us don’t really care for gore, splatter, and Satanic themes.
Those lyrical themes are present in the music for the same reason that those themes are present in a horror or suspense movie. Sometimes it is fun to experience that kind of emotion without experiencing the threat that would come along with it in real life. You might also compare it to a well-designed roller coaster.
In this way, extreme metal is safer territory than, say, gangster rap. Gangster rap lyrics are not as deviant, but they also describe what might be called “real life,” as in, “Here’s an instruction manual for being an actual cop killer.”
Death metal isn’t like that. It is understood that Obituary (a band) is deliberately trying to ring your bell and make you feel incredulous at how deprived their lyrics are. That’s the art of it, if you will - but nobody takes it seriously.
This gentleman is correct in his assessment that the timbre and rhythm of this style of music lends itself almost exclusively to one mood. It is impossible to separate the energy of extreme metal from the physiology of a violent encounter. In fact, most people hate this kind of music precisely because it makes them feel like they have just lived through a violent encounter.
That said, if God exists, then God is certainly awesome and big enough to encompass all manner of artistic expression, including artistic expressions with themes that are inherently negative.
I would compare it to something like Greek tragedy. A Greek tragedy has an inherently negative plot line, but there is dignity within that inherently negative plotline. That’s why it qualifies as high art.
The book of Ecclesiastes is also quite negative, at least ostensibly - along with so much else in the Bible - but if you look a little deeper you’ll find a doorway into something far more uplifting.
The lyrics are not usually the point. Lyrics are almost an afterthought, and they are written with brutal themes because nothing else usually fits the music. That said, some extreme metal bands - such as a band called Death - have very sophisticated lyrics that really make you think. It’s rare, but not unheard of.
Listening to extreme metal can feel a lot like being in a tiny rowboat in the middle of a hurricane in the open ocean. It’s sort of terrifying, but it is also literally awesome. It connotes the terrifying awesomeness of God‘s power.
If I were to give any advice to my 17-year-old self, who was a vocalist and bass player in a “Christian “death metal band, here is what I would say:
“Don’t be a one trick pony. When it comes to producing good art, most artists have to specialize, so it makes sense that you are perfecting the art of playing death metal. You can’t very well be good at that, and be good at everything else at the same time. But there is no rule that says you have to specialize when it comes to CONSUMING art. If you play death metal, it might be a good idea not to listen to very much of it. This gives your stress sensors a break, and it also helps you to ring in influences that might make your art more unique and interesting.”
But here’s the thing: Most metal fans don’t need that advice. In fact, metal fans, whether Christians or not, are in general terms some of the most open minded music listeners you will ever encounter.
For example, it is very common to meet a metal head who is at least capable of appreciating jazz or classical music, and it is well known that heavy-metal musicians have been integrating such influences for decades.
But it is extremely rare to meet a jazz head, or a classical fanatic who is truly capable of appreciating metal.
The reason for this is that appreciating extreme metal music requires a very sensitive ear. There’s a lot to pay attention to, and it’s rhythmically complex. A person who can appreciate Cannibal Corpse has no trouble comprehending Tschaikowsky.
If there is any significant spiritual risk to being a fan of extreme metal, the risk has to do with exposing yourself to too much of it, not with the mere fact of listening to it. I would compare it to sunbathing. A little bit is good. A lot might be OK, depending on your tolerance. But yes, too much can damage you - not permanently, and probably not seriously, but some.
“We’ll probably have to do a follow up” 😆
For Today anyone?
I can kinda agree. As a metalhead. One style doesn't fit every occasion. When I am in a more warfare focused prayer time death metal, death core, thrash and stuff like that is fitting. But there is a time for ballads and I've gotten more out of some ballads than Elevation or Hillsong. Then there's a time for something with heavy emotions like Bloodlines Severed "Man of Sorrows". Unblack metal has more of a depth than death metal. It's how the tamber is used not the tamber itself.
Doug's on point. Awesomely on point. The point to Ecclesiastes wasn't to denounce death metal but he applies principle and methods. To a degree, his point is that a many Christians today want simplicity and that's clearly wrong. Music takes form and has form. A soldier isn't going to charge into battle listening to Gregorian chants nor will someone suffering an ear infection listen to death metal. This principle applies to worship as well, you don't go into worship wanting to sing death metal but there are boundaries and we have to be able to discern those boundaries.
One does not play the "Curb Your Enthusiasm" them during Eucharist.
Being a Christian who love Rock music such as Stryper, Holy Soldier ect ect. I get exactly what you’re saying and I agree with it. Of course I listen to many other types of melodic music besides rock. Such as Josh Wilson, Casting Crowns, Mercy me. I think moderation is key. I’ve never heard this discussed In this way and I’m glad I listened to it and thank you for your perspective it has enlightened me
Im currently starting a Christian metal project, been reading all the different opinions and one thing that is weighing on my heart is the fact that metal music does encourage one to want to mosh and get wild which in turn is a form of violence. Ive been praying about it but I can't seem to break this level of conviction I have. Our bands goal is to be the counterpart to these bands like Lorna Shore, Slaughter to prevail, etc but with a true message of faith and repentence. Im learning in my walk with Christ that we do really need to put away what WE think is good for what Christ wants us to do. The music is the best ive ever written and ive sacrificed my entire life at my shop working on this project everyday, going through disipleship, getting saved, baptized, bible studies, and at the end of the day this music project led me to the church and led me to turning my life around and giving my soul to Christ which im thankful for. But there's still that level of conviction in my heart, because even devils profess Jesus is lord... Im scared that what im doing and how much ive sacraficed for this will be in vain because we're making extremely agressive music that if you were to show an african tribesman or someone in Israel this kind of music and it would be second nature that theyd think its evil. Like would it be acceptable to play this kind of music in the church? And even if there is a church that promotes metal, are they the kind of church that has Lgtbq pastors affirming peoples chosen genders? In a really tough spot becuase we want to preach the gospel but it is an appearence of evil that we are told to abstain from but on the other hand, you got people like Tosin Abasi from animals as leaders and bands like Dream Theater who push the boundries of whats humanly possible to play and then pop and trap artists that play 4 notes the whole song, so I ask which is really satanic? The ones playing the scales and chords closest to classical musical and the birth of music theory revealed by the church or a mockery of it using 4 notes in a trap beat? Seriosuly struggling with this one guys and would be nice to get some sort of clarity. The music we make has a lot of "breeeeeeessss!!!" 😂😂😂
What is your band name?
@@DanielSantiagoForYHWH Still a little bit undecided on that. We have a few ideas floating around, but mainly been focused on the writing for the past year and working in on honing our skill and getting the best work we can possibly get together for our Lord Jesus. Still feeling convicted, the consensus right now is that we're going to put out the spiritual war drum music as a start and move onto more melodic stuff/pop punk later on, but it's still dawning on me about putting this material out. It did feel good in the moment, and it's powerful music with an amazing message but like I said in the comment, there's still that small piece of conviction I have, and you can have 99% purity of something but that 1% of poison is still poison. Idk man.
it exterme tempo that want people to mosh. I think its is above 180 bpm. mosh become a thing when hardcore punk come to be and I why Play punk rock at traditional punk tempo.
Playing thunderstruck in your tank sounds awesome
The only people who crap on Christian metal are people that don't understand it
Is it bringing forth good fruits?
As someone who feels fairly theologically versed, and versed in metal as my primary music I listen to. I can confirm that metal can be listened to in all ecclesiastical settings, and many songs have their “times of peace” beautifully interwoven within them. Sorry Doug but I’m going to respectfully disagree wholeheartedly on this one.
As a Christian who follows Jesus, every day is a battle against the enemy. A literal BATTLE. Some of us use the help of empowering war music like Christian metal that glorifies Jesus to help stomp out Satan and the flesh. I'd say more days we need empowerment in our music rather than the soft friendly praise and worship. There is a time and place for both but I'd argue some of us need more Christian metal than the latter. But ultimately we all know Jesus is the true source of our strength but to say you can only listen to metal at certain times is ignorant to the fact that every day is WAR against darkness.
Bands and one of my favorites is demon hunter, war of ages .. if not for that connection, I would have never came to Christ in full heart, prophesied to be a teacher and pastor, my road is not complete. It still has me in a connection. This is a very rocky road that can differ in many ways and I'm more than willing with anyone to discuss what and what not according to biblical teaching and musical difference. It's a way to me, to bring others closer to God with music, granet others abuse it.a true believer will know.
I find FANILIARITY WITH THE PASSAGE makes a lot of difference to.
I quite enjoy hearing the opening to Count Dankula's UA-cam videos. It is not something I would want to listen to for extended periods, and that passage on its own is one that I found little enjoyment on my first hearing it, but enjoyment now (when I know how to anticipate every turn of melody and clash of timbre.
And which, in such a small dose, complements his brand.
listen to the whole song, it's a worship song about the power and glory of Almighty GOD - the tambour is completely appropriate for majesty - another point I would make is metal music a majority of the time is what I would expect a warrior to listen to. Not necessarily a sign of spiritual dilemma. On a side note, their new album is a sci-fi adventure concept.
Timbre.
Wonder how brother Doug would react to bands like WATG, Jesuswannabeez, or HolyName in 2023?
This is where I disagree with him while I agree with him on most other things. I was a metal head for good 15 years and I have listened to all sorts of metal music that would give nightmares to some and cause psychological trauma to the others. My music was my idol. I gave it all up the day I was called to choose between the world and God.
When we are drawn towards a certain genre of music, and hope to listen to some Christian version of that kind of style of music, we are fulfilling our carnal need more than anything else. For proof, read the comments. If you say otherwise, you know you are lying. When I started listening to hymns sung in choir arrangements or acapella, I had to make an effort to enjoy them. I tried to approach this genre as I did with the heavymetal music I used to listen to. So, I prayed about it, and God helped me appreciate them more and more with each passing day. Now, the genre is secondary, and the message is primary. What stirs my heart is the conviction of the Holy Spirit through the words I listen to and causes me to worship him in truth in my daily living. And there are hymns that move me in a way to stand firm in battle for Christ and they do not sound anything like this. Think about all the disciples in The Bible and the persecution and death they faced. Did they have any kind of music at all to keep them going let alone "Christian Death"? What about the ones that are persecuted and killed in mission fields? What music is befitting their occasion or their lifestyle? And just as I used to break into a song (humming or singing to myself) from Iron Maiden for example before I was born again, I still do break into a song, but those songs are hymns, and the impact they've had on me is surreal and worthy of praise and honor to God. So, goodluck breaking into a song and growling at work!
Besides, different genres of metal came into being and their motivations were and still are rebellion against God, government, or refusal to remain subservient to an authority, and in some cases worshiping Satan. Some death metal and black metal bands use their music to lead many youth into worshiping the devil. There are few bands that have even burned down churches in parts of Europe. They're all talented musicians and their musicianship is nothing short of extraordinary. So, why take a genre that is pagan and evil, and make an allowance for it by slapping a Christian label on it?
I would encourage you to look up Christian Berdhal on UA-cam on this issue. He has done a brilliant seminar on this and I assure you that it is going to encourage you to approach this differently and in a way that brings glory to God and not to yourself. Play this in your car out loud and tell the world you're a Christian and evangelize and see what happens. Even if it works, you'll end up gathering false converts.
Thank you for such a good response. Metal has never been my thing. But more of a classic 60s rock. It was my idol also. Timothy Leary said that he didn't necessarily need drugs to get stoned. The music alone would do the trick. If you go to some of the concerts of the Grateful Dead or Widespread Panic you will find a worship experience. They are filled with a spirit by the drugs and music. They raise their hands up and dance in worship. It's interesting how you speak of having to learn to enjoy reverential music. I believe there is a certain sense in which the world does the same thing. They want to be accepted by a certain group so they begin to learn to enjoy the fashion, the music, etc of a certain group. These are mixed together ramblings but to me the music issue is an important one.
However God is NOT genre specific. To say heavy metal can't be redeemed/reclaimed is theologically absurd. Music is a common grace given by God. I am not a fan of the death metal genre particularly I prefer bands like Stryper, Deliverance, Affector. I have also heard the ridiculous doctrine that BEING a musician is a sin because God no longer gifts people to be musicians - a very slippery interpretation of Ezekiel 28 ( tabrets and pipes ). The enemy has a big influence over the music industry but to say he owns it ALL is a bit of a stretch.
Sounds like what some used to say about jungle music (jazz).
How is atonal classical music in rebellion against God? I understand what he means when he says there are times for everything. And I also understand that Paul says if it causes a brother to fall that it is a sin even if it isn’t inherently sinful in nature. But if I’m sitting around listening to Death Metal and thinking “wow the timbre of this is so unique and I love it because I hear the colors and the harmony and melody and the music that’s buried deep inside the initial sound of this genre then I think that I would technically be more understanding of art and music. There for it would help me see deeper into the mind of God and Christ and help me appreciate the different things of the world rather then just deeming it evil or sinful because I don’t have the patience or wisdom to explore what’s happening in said art and music.
For atonal classical music, John Cage (for one high profile example) thinks he's in rebellion against God. Shouldn't we take him at his own word? He doesn't believe beauty is objective (Christians must), he believes we all fundamentally are nothing (Christians believe God made us from nothing), and he thinks meaning is irrelevant (Christians are people of the Word). I can supply quotes if needed. Something about the way humans are made is tonal, not atonal. This isn't to say that every atonal composer is at John Cage's level...but the genre is.
Why should we take Cage at his own word?
If it looks like an orange, smells like an orange, and says it's an orange, I think we're safe to call it an orange.
@@CanonPress John Cage's perversion is not in the atonality but in the randomness.
He is not just an outlier Doug, but a _categorical_ outlier.
I love metal, it has its place like all things.
Indeed.
Yes, I enjoy all. Sorts of music but I have no use for any musical style that can only express rage. And by the music I mean the music itself. Sound expresses things totally apart from the lyrics.
Most of these bands don't just straightforwardly worship Jesus in their lyrics, but rather are determined to have lyrics which are accessible to the genre as a whole, where they don't want to sound dorky so they focus on assessing Christianity and then expressing that in conformity with the worldly standards of the genre. The spiritual energy of the music is also not in agreement with the mind of Christ. Their conformity, which should be to Christ's mind and image, is rather to the world. Before I was made a new creation, I was a metal-head and punk-rock and rock-n-roller, but when I was made new I discovered I no longer valued those spirits.
I'm not trying to be judgmental of people for their imperfections, I'm just offering a bit of clarity about what the spiritualities of these cultures tend to be. As God sets the Church apart from the world, eventually it becomes impossible to straddle the divide, and people will spiritual be on one side, or the other, of that gap.
You clearly know nothing about Becoming the Archetype; the music is just the medium for a message. They are unapologetically Christian in their lyrics. Skillet is far more vague lyrically on the whole in comparison, but they are acceptable because the music is more digestible.
@@petermain6791 Eyeliner on a man, is to flirt with transgenderism. John Cooper is a bit of a walking contradiction.
Excuse? I use deathmetal/heavy metal to relax and cool myself, sometimes listen to it when I need to cool down for bed.
So, people who come to church and listen to "worship" have their lives together? Who has their life together?
The Christian bands always have the heaviest , most brutal breakdowns too. If our job of Christians is to spread Gods word to people who need it , I think that Metal would be the place to start
Last month a survey shows people who listen to this kind of music are more happier.
So here's some food for thought. I am at a point in my life where I am probably the most at peace I've ever been. Yet I deeply enjoy this type and style of music regularly. I guess I'm failing to see what type of music I listen to is a direct reflection of where my life is at this current moment. I enjoy listening to Metal for the sake of purely enjoying listening to metal. People will never understand how I can say I can literally put on my headphones, close my eyes and listen to something like this and I actually find it peaceful and soothing at times. Im not trying to bash anyones view here and having played in a few Christian Hard rock and Metal bands myself, the music and be very technical and skillful in terms of musicianship and quite often I feel that I have found myself in a deeper level of worship both playing and being a part of shows/concerts of bands like this. I've watched more people get saved through music like this and I've seen the churchs run those same people off because of their lack of comfort with people who don't where a suit and tie to church on Sundays.
Well, there's all sorts of folks who are "the most at peace they've ever been" and are on their way to Hell. So that's not a gauge to measure a sanctified life. As well saying "People will never understand how I can say I can literally put on my headphones, close my eyes and listen to something like this and I actually find it peaceful and soothing at times" doesn't help either. I know people who can say that about watching porn, or if they've gotten truly more deep into their depravity, torturing someone to death. But then the piece de resistance " I've watched more people get saved through music like this ..." Oh my ... now you and I both know you're being dishonest here. That's just a fact. No one has ever been saved through listening to "Christian death metal".
@@stegokitty I actually know a lot of people who found Christ through this style of music and being involved in the "scene", so you are the one being disingenuous. Are you really comparing torturing someone to death and listening to "christian death metal"? Absurd. If you want to go there, all styles of music that came after about 1700 are sinful, so say goodbye to jazz, the blues, and just about every style of music that the western world enjoys. Let me know when you are listening to specifically middle-eastern lyre and acoustic tunes.
This is just a self-righteous pastor trying to condemn the music and listeners as "sinful" in a passive-aggressive way by blaming it on "timbre" because he doesn't like it. If we want to follow his argument deeper than we all need to be prepared to throw out western music as a whole and start listening to middle-eastern acoustic music ONLY as everything else is a sin. It's absolutely ridiculous and an archaic notion of man and man alone.
@@HeyWingz //I actually know a lot of people who found Christ through this style of music and being involved in the "scene"//
Really? Name one. Name a person who became a Christian THROUGH "Christian death metal".
//Are you really comparing torturing someone to death and listening to "christian death metal"? Absurd.//
Listen to death metal IS torture. But if you wish to respond to something I've said, you should quote what I've said, as I've done with you above, so that I know what you're talking about.
//If you want to go there, all styles of music that came after about 1700 are sinful//
LOL! Wow ... just wow. Talk about absurd.
@@HeyWingz Firstly, there's nothing self-righteous about Doug. Secondly, he never once says that the music is sinful. And his comments on timbre are 100% on point. It's like I've said to another bloke, try this experiment: Go to your wife, or girlfriend, or even your mother, as well as to your favorite pet, and do this -- SCREAM and GROWL "I love you". See how well that works. See if it's received in the same way as if you said it in the timbre you would be using if your were actually going to say such a thing to any one of the above. No one in his right mind plays lilting happy music at a funeral, nor do they play sad songs at a wedding. There's nothing wrong with either of those styles, per se, but they are the WRONG VEHICLE for the situation. And so it's the same with heavy metal. It's got it's place and that place is for stories of horror and the supernatural, and of violence, and war. And they sound appropriate in those contexts. They are not the proper vehicle for disseminating tender emotions, nor of calm thinking, nor of meditation, etc. Everything has its time and place. And then there's death metal. The name really speaks for itself. It was designed by men who hate Christ and who despise reality, the one that God created, and who wish to destroy music and anything meaningful in it. Again, it's designed specifically BY Christ-hating men, for the PURPOSE of blaspheming Christ. And then along comes some goofy Christians who grew up with that sound around them or discovered it and thought it resonated with something in them and so started listening to it, and wanting to play it, and they want to make it be "okay" in their Christian walk. It just doesn't work. It's ugly ... as ugly as gangsta rap ... and as ugly as modern filthy-mouthed pop music from phony Christians like Beyonce.
It's pretty funny that he says death metal is all one timbre, when later in that very track there's a beautiful section with acoustic guitar and piano. Another track on the album is a classical guitar solo.
Per your discussion about music like this only being appropriate when marching with the tanks to Battle. When did you forget? Our battle is not against flesh and blood? When did you forget as a Christian that we are at war constantly? Have you done what most Christians have done and are doing? Just sit back on the sidelines and watch the battlefield? Forgetting that once they were dying out there? what soldier volunteers for the Lords Army and then sits back on the sidelines in comfort never referring back to the rescue healing and restoration they received and desiring to rescue someone else. This music is excellent music for the occasion. It does not make me angry. It does not fill me with chaos and confusion. In the midst of Battle, I find peace. In the midst of war so thick, I know His Spirit restores, and rejuvenates me. God often uses the powerful gifting of men like becoming the archetype to inspire my soul to Battle. Death metal is a term coined by secular people to describe a category of music with a certain type of sound. Don’t get stuck on tiles like this. Holy name has coined a new term violent worship. But if you must call it, death metal just recognize the truth. I am crucified with Christ therefore I no longer live, but Christ that lives within me. come to terms with your death. Do not flee from it. Come to terms with it. Christian metal core artists like holy name and bta have come to terms with death. Many of them have faced him head on. Meanwhile, the “ Church” sits idly by. Wake up Oh, Sleeper I hope you virgins have purchased enough oil. Love you all. Take it as a rebuke in love.
Everything has a time. Be ye angry and sin not.
"Either you don't understand your life, or you do and your life is a mess".
David's life was a mess. You think all that death, blood, impaling and killing of his day wouldn't warrant music like this? You think the times we're living in, the enemy knowing his time on this earth is almost done, creating more and more vileness in the hearts of creation doesn't parallel the types of battles we face similar to back then?
Open your eyes Doug Wilson, we ain't playing harps anymore. Our worship is for those ready and willing to face and fight the blackest darkness. Metal is our war cry.
I was in Rasputin music during the holidays years ago where they were playing 'Silent Night' death metal version. Needless to say I had to leave the store and couldn't even stay to get what I wanted to get. That's how horrible it was....
@Nathanael Overman Yeah man it was so bad I had to leave the store, for real lol
I like the approach in his opinion. He even used scripture to extend his conclusion. He is right. There's gonna be a time where you need to listen to something else. What helps to elevate what YHWH wants to speak to you throughout your life. I find myself listening to what is fitting for the time as well. I love metal. Always have. Always will. It's my thing. Yet, I find myself listening to many other masterpieces that aren't in the genre. In fact, you'll start to construct a beautiful list of music that is unique to your journey. I find myself excited every time I wanna jam to something. Some just are stubborn and enclosed in an identity, a persona if you will. That's dangerous. You're not meant to make another mask, you're meant to be maskless. You're not of this world anymore. You are the image of Abba. Abba is more than anything you can imagine.
I am dizzy by the circles he danced around the question. My understanding is music is more than just lyrics and professional execution of riffs. Music is mind altering and can change one's mood, spiritual health, convictions etc. I spent many years listening to this kind of music and now that I am saved, my convictions about hellish music keep me from abstaining from all appearances of evil which incorporates this kind of music. 1 Thessalonians 5:22; Philippians 4:8. I do not understand how a saved person can immerse themselves in music (or other) which imitates blaspheming and ungodly groups.
At least he brought up classical music. Many satanists pride themselves of being classical musicians and denounce. This was specifically mentioned in the Nikolas Shrek/Zeena LaVey interview with Bob Larson. There is some choral music dedicated to Lucifer that makes the skin crawl - ua-cam.com/video/gfG9aJzFPd4/v-deo.html
Some have said the same about Jazz.
Some have said the same about introducing intervals _other than the octave_ into Gregorian Chant!
Have you anything to say which would warrant your claims if your own experience being normative to others sir?
Have you?
Have you?
Have you?
I love Christian rock and metal when I’m lifting heavy weights, but lately I’ve enjoyed contemporary worship (Kari Jobe) the vast majority of the time.
What music would Doug recommend??
Great perspective and thoughts on this issue
So obviously, anyone who knows Becoming the Archetype beyond the 10-second clip knows that their songs are extremely varied in "tambor" as he says. But before I knee-jerk react to this, what he's saying (in general) is something I agree with--mainly that if this is the ONLY thing you listen to you might want to reconsider your musical diet and introduce some variety for separate occasions (mourning, celebration, anger, power, worship etc.)
That being said, I know a WHOLE LOT of people who only listen to contemporary worship who could stand to do the same "broadening of their horizon," but they typically get let off the hook a little easier in that regard because their brand of music is more culturally acceptable.
Timbre.
What about melodic hardcore? E.g. The old albums of 'Being as an Ocean' as 'Dear G-d'
I love that album. You like wolves at the gate?
@@djentile7773 Wolves at the Gate are good.
Hey Doug, I really think you should do another one of these but (and also because 😂) you'd probably have to recant at least part of what you said, because these guys mix up a lot of different "tambor" as you put it. The track in mind is deep heaven. It won't be hard to find because it's on this same album⬆️
By the way, you would appreciate the end track, "end of the age".
A lot can be said about the theology and arguments made by these two gentlemen but what gets me the most is the fact that they listened to just 18 seconds of the song, then say, "Ok. that's enough." chuckle and discuss the song, it's timbre and lyrics.
The song is 6:31 long, fellas.
It'd be nice if these two came back, now 10 years later, and did a legitimate "Boomer Pastors react to Christian Death Metal" video to this same song. I wonder if their thoughts would remain the same or if they would have a different perspective. Maybe during this gap they've met a fan of Christian Metal and determined that their life is just a mess? I find it very legalistic to say that you must listen to many genres of music and only according to the state of life you're in. Maybe that's not what Pastor Doug meant but it was what I received.
We are in a war everyday! We war against ourself, we war against the devil and we war against the world. "The kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force" so take God's kingdom forcebly and embody the One that gave it to us to be a part of, because but for the grace of God I would be defeated by myself, the devil and the world. (Tbh, I still suffer defeats sometimes but quitting is not an option, fight on Christian soldier). If anything Christian heavy metal band's have their purpose, but only if their message elevates Christ and spurns, rebukes and encourages you to press on in this spiritual war. Turn up the timbre I say! 🙌
Analyze song, listens to 20 seconds...umm the song is over 6 minutes. How can one analyze a whole sub genre of Christian music with 20 seconds? Seems very short sighted. I think a better format would be listen to the song and talk to the artist(if possible) would love to see Jason talk with him about it. Maybe he just lacks the knowledge of how this type of music has brought people to the faith?
Exactly bands such as For Today and Sleeping Giant brought me closer to faith.
You’d probably find most Christian’s that prefer metal over the grotesque depraved “hits” all over our work radios, don’t listen to just the one band, there’s many Christian bands that would be considered “heavy” but I find a lot of more modern heavier Christian bands will mix it up with beautiful cleans and soulful melody to contrast the wall of noise, but I can understand what you’re saying, for a while I’ve believed music influences your behaviour, thought process etc but what you’ve said makes so much sense, I used to feel drained when I would listen to heavy music for months on end and now I switch it up with some acoustic folk Lo fi stuff as well as podcasts and now scripture from time to time. But I agree it’s not a sin to listen to heavy music especially if the intent is in the right place but maybe we should be more aware of not over saturating our mind with it
Becoming the Archetype rock - praise God 🙌✝️
You should have Doug listen to BTA's interludes
That's actually one of my favorite songs by them.
As a Christian, and as a metalhead who also likes extreme metal, I’d say that extreme metal is probably inappropriate for church. But traditional heavy metal like Stryper could work with properly worshipful lyrics.
I don’t listen to Christian death metal but I LOVE Payable On Death, Five Iron Frenzy, Supertones, Pillar, 12 Stones, Skillet, Thousand Foot Krutch and Project 86! And I still listen to secular music too
Compared to what...that Baptist three cord boring garagbe??
I grew up listening to death metal. You are 1000% correct. The tambor affects the mind. You go in a death metal circle of people, and they are mostly hyper aggressive people, which was part of the attraction for me. Being defined by my peers as 'hard core' was a label of pride. Funny that as you learn to appreciate other music forms, the heart and mind soften. This is blasphemy to people in the DM scene. DM also uses mostly minor based chord progressions, mixed with very tribalistic drum parts, that in other regions of the world could be considered as calling on demons. Not the lyrics, but merely the music itself. I would label the music as being 'an anti-joyous sound'. Even though I am still attracted to a lot of it, I am no longer interested in the conditioning of the mind aspect that it brings. For sure, if we are to emulate Christ, then the conditioning that this music brings is moving in an opposing direction. I would not say that it would make someone 'unsaved', I don't believe it has that much power. I also don't believe that God is willing to let go of someone who has called on his name that easily. But it does stifle sanctification somewhat.
Timbre.
The average death metal listener is probably one of the most relaxed people on the planet.
@@nadirjofas3140 uh, that's not because of the music. That's because of the weed.
@@americanlostinvietnam3721 lol no
@@americanlostinvietnam3721 lol probably, I'm chill because I love everyone, the Spirit is in me.
i would think that those who would be drawn to christian death metal would be people with tough times in their current life... I wouldnt imagine anyone listening strictly to christian death metal... however I would say in Matthew 10:34 "Think not I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword"........ maybe christian death metal adherents would equate the grunginess of the metal to Gods displeasure with mans sin? Im just thinking out loud. Its not for me but to each his own.
Have him analyze "creeping death" by Metallica. Its about the passover.
About the Exodus in general really
Not surprised...🤦♂️
It would be interesting to have Doug interview a highly accomplished musician/composer such as Neil Morse…
Duly noted. Now let me get back to my spiritual warfare and listen to it's soundtrack!!
🙄 ugh every time I hear this I just think so play the song how great though art by them and play the whole song and say the same thing. These guys are Christian and are great musicians, this is how we divide the church. Most people that listen to Christian metal also enjoy a wide range of music, the stereotype is kinda sad it’s like because they haven’t moved on from 90s or 80s contemporary music no one else understands it. I’m a Christian and washed up screamer so speaking from the view point of the band here.
Thank you! I hate that metal music has been so stereotyped. So once my gain knob goes past 5, then it's a sin?? Or when my quarter notes are exchanged for triplets, then it's a sin??? I'm a reformed guy and that's nonsense to me. I'm a huge metal-head, grew up deep in sin, played in an active metal band for about 7 years. Since God saved me, He has carried me out of many bad things, and convicted me to quit the remaining things. It's been a long time since I listened to all the worldly rap, but just recently I've felt convicted to stop listening to a bunch of metal bands and songs. It started with songs that glorified evil, then any song that used God's name in vain, going through lyrics and finding all this inexcusable stuff. Then I was convicted to stop listening to my favorite metal band, lamb of god. Just the band name is blasphemous to God. It's not easy cutting out all these songs, not easy, but they are inexcusable, and I want God more... So, I've been searching for Christian metal bands to replace all the music I've cut out, and it's really hard to find Christian metal that serves my taste(thrash, groove, technical). Many bands go for the black metal sound, and while I like blast beats, I don't like 4 minutes of nonstop blast beat. After cutting all the worldly and blasphemous music out, I'm convicted that the lyrics, artwork, and members of the band are all that matter. Most people are stuck in the old thinking that all metal is bad, but I really don't believe that. By the way, I've been trying to learn to scream(false chord and fry) and it's not easy.
basically there is nothing wrong with it but because it's not traditional or contemporary, because to the church system as a whole it's a difficult sell... There is no acceptance or place to be found for these people and they will have to wander in a twilight zone between being rejected by their fellow Christians and and rejected by the counterculture the are actively ministering to. That is what is being said, but the "Christian" country, and pop and contemporary that is played in almost every church and get radio time but is filled with people that reject scripture, live like the devil, and espouse false doctrines, that's not near as much of a threat to the gospel or the modern church system because it's relatively sanitized and easy to sell. This is also what is being said.
Make war on your sin. Kill it. Can't it be true that the kid listening is stirring up himself to resist and fight temptation and sin with a combat like fervor? Based on the possibly appropriate setting of combat mixed with Owen's encouragements from Mortification of Sin... I can see another option.
Another thing that should be considered is how a Christian artist creates. We create because we are made in the image of a God who creates. We create from what he created out of nothing and we reflect true things about God through art for his glory. I can see death metal tambour reflecting similar things as a violent storm and the lyrics representing light entering into darkness and offering hope in the midst of wrath.
Maybe. Couldn't it also be true that the kid has the wrong tool for the job and is subjecting himself to a genre that was founded to celebrate death, gore, and other obscene things? "Death Metal" didn't get its name because the genre's first bands were reading Owen's Mortification of Sin.
Hmm... I am just a guy on the internet, but I would respectfully offer a suggestion to prayerfully consider the degree to which taste may have had a little too much influence on decrement. The scripture referenced in the video seems like quite a stretch at times and the use of "We sang a dirge and you did not mourn, we played the flute and you did not dance" is taking a verse way out of context. The author had no intention of showing certain music has a fitting environment... This type of cherry picking verses out of context trying to defend a preconceived opinion is one of the strong reasons for exposition. I have nothing but respect for Doug and I genuinely mean this as something to consider and have no desire to quarrel or wander into vanity here.
No interest in quarreling either! I am enjoying the discussion (but if you're not we can be done!). Don't you think taste is often used as reason for listening to certain genres as well? What makes whose taste right? It's obvious that some music is appropriate in certain contexts and not in others. Say, lullaby vs gameday music. There has to be some objective standards we can measure music against -- and I'd say the standard for aesthetics is given in Phil 4:8: we're supposed to evaluate what is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent, or praiseworthy.
@@CanonPress That is referring to what type of thoughts that should occupy our mind and the context of the epistle has no reference to physical aesthetics as you would apply to art except perhaps your inspiration for creating some work of art since that would naturally flow from the things that you think about. That is still a moral quality of beauty.
I think you might have a better case if you referenced the repeated focus of making a joyful song, but even this does not forbid expressions of mourning or expressions of other emotions if made in an accurate light. Singing of God's sovereignty as a dirge as if to lament the fact that God is sovereign is obviously inappropriate.
This seems to be more in accord with the verses that tell us to bear with each other when ones conscience is not bothered by an act and another's is. No one should crank up Christian death metal with Doug in the car if he cannot listen to it out of faith. But likewise, I am not sure Doug should be saying it is wrong for someone to worship and praise God through and entire genre of music if their conscience is not bothered and he is not able to provide more scripturally sound reason why Christians shouldn't create or consume that specific niche of art.
I do have questions about the image this casts. Does it clearly convey the message it is supposed to? Or is it more likely to send a message about God being chaotic and psychotic? I would not handle it casually if I was an artist creating death metal Christian music. There seems to be a very narrow range of true things you can say about God and a very wide range of ways you might glorify dark and evil things. Screaming "Jesus is Lord" as if it is a painful thing says more than just what the lyrics on paper would say.
@@CanonPress I don't know the etymology of the term.