Analyze This Christian Metal Song? | Doug Wilson
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2013
- In this episode of Ask Doug, Pastor Doug Wilson and Ben Merkle listen to a snippet of "End of the Age" by the band Becoming the Archetype.
Ask Doug: It would be very helpful and very interesting to hear your analysis of any given Christian metal song or two 1) so that we can learn how you would go about analyzing a song, and 2) because I think there are some songs out there that, if you listened to them, you would change your mind about Christian metal a little bit.
My worship leader was actually a member of the band. Best worship leader I’ve ever played under. Genuine believer with strong believes and huge theological knowledge.
awesome!
They just put out another album!
Well, part of the problem is that your church has a "worship leader" in the first place. The "worship leader" is an elder, typically a teaching elder, who leads the congregation in worship, which is the hearing of the reading and preaching of the Word; the prayers; the sacraments; the collection, the benediction, and that sort of thing. There might be a person who leads the music, but calling the singing specifically "worship" relegates the rest of the aforementioned as something less than worship, now doesn't it?
@@Daniel-vp2on it's their best album yet I think. Although this album dichotomy is my favorite still. Doug really needs to reanalyze what he thinks about metal and listen to their track deep heaven with all the piano breaks and other genres mixed in. 👍
Theological knowledge doesn't mean much. Are they living Bible principles?
Sex before marriage. Substance abuse. Homosexuality. Etc.
Ironically, this band has an enormous range in their full catalogue, including many, many beautiful acoustic guitar pieces in the classical style
But only one tamber…this wasn’t a fair assessment and it presumed chaos in ones life because of the music they enjoy. That is false.
yeah this is the second subject on which i'm not sure Doug is completely correct. but I still respect him, and share many other views with him. hes also saying music that he thinks sounds good is the better music to listen to.
Man, I saw BTA back in like 2002 or 03 or something in a dive ass bar in SLC. They were supposed to open for Nevermore, but Nevermore didn't show up. It's the first time I heard this band they blew me away. Been a fan ever since.
Exactly and honestly the type of expression. Largely misunderstood brings me a lot of calm and peace and their drummer is actually the worship leader at my church. And. Is very classically based and can release endorphins and fight anxiety
This is extremely ignorant
There are some people who prefer to consistently listen to a certain form of music in spite of whatever mood they're in. That doesn't mean they misunderstand their lives or that their lives are a mess. There are times where I listen to beautiful classical or contemporary Christian worship music when my life really is a mess or when I'm sad/angry/whatever, simply because I feel listening to said music can be calming despite the fact that the lyrics tend to not relate to my situation in the moment. Then there are times where I'm in great shape, I'm happy, life is going great and I feel deeply connected with God spiritually, yet I'll listen to stuff like death metal (BTA is an awesome one though my personal favorite of the genre is Hope for the Dying), metalcore, or whatever and equally enjoy it then.
I have no desire to rebel against God intentionally, and I feel in a deeper connection with Christ than I have in YEARS today (and the past few days as well, hopefully this continues as I hate feeling distant), yet I just finished listening to the album that song is from. Do I misunderstand my life? No. There are some uncertainties going on right now, but there are always uncertainties (your next breath, my next heartbeat, those are uncertain as we aren't guaranteed the next moment by any means). Honestly, I'd say I understand my life and understand God at a deeper level now than I have in ages, and frankly, it's THANKS to music like this. Bands such as BTA have lyrics that I can relate with in my struggles, yet feel like they celebrate with me in the triumphs God has had in my life. When I struggle with feeling emotionally disconnected with God (as I have off and on for the past three years now), their lyrics encourage me. When I feel like this, where I feel like I understand and experience Christ at an extremely deep level, their lyrics encourage me further by reminding me of from where Christ has delivered me and the place in which I stand has become His triumph over darkness and sin in my life.
Now am I going to go out and listen to Satanist, anti-Christian bands because I feel secure in my faith? No. I feel the Holy Spirit convict me when I hear something He doesn't want me to further pursue and I try to always heed His warnings. However, if the music praises God, aims to encourage Christians, or discusses life struggles with a message of hope, there's nothing wrong with listening to those bands and there's nothing wrong with listening to them whenever you want to.
In short, you can listen to whatever genre of music you'd like whenever you like and you won't be sinning. However, if you feel the Spirit convicting you to stop listening to a band, listen to Him.
well said
“End of the Age” is Becoming the Archetype’s best song. From a Reformed lens of the scriptures, the lyrics are beautiful. Christ is Grand, Majestic and His law is Highly Grand. Every time I listen to that song and ponder the lyrics, I can’t help but think about Romans 9 and particularly 1 Corinthians 15 in that Christ is and has been in the process of putting ALL His enemy’s under His feet through the ages... While all of history is moving towards the Great Day of the Lord in which Christ will get the last say so and the good of those who love Him will inherit the earth. The song reminds me that to think I am apart of that in spite of my sin/ short coming’s and solely upon Christ grace alone through faith alone is truly beyond me.
i cry everytime i listen to this song. I fall to my knees and worship the Master of Heaven. He is truly merciful despite my past sins and current. All Praise to Yahuah!!!
Straight up *regular* death metal has lyrics that are more theologically sound than what passes for Christian contemporary music these days...
Exactly what I've been saying for quite a while
Truth
Absolutely true.
Mortification my beloved
Agree, Disturbed made one of the most Christian song ever, Innocence.
LOL, Doug's face when he hears the music for the first time... LOLOLOL!
😂
Your observations are mirrored somewhat by the creator of the album "Hellig Ustvart." He said that it was difficult to write Christian black metal that wasn't about being against Satan and his influence. I would say that death metal as a genre can have a wide range of emotions, not just rage. I've listened to death metal songs showing grief, triumph, love, and other emotions. Saying that death metal songs are just about one emotional stage because it utilizes intense instrumentation is like saying pop songs are just about lust because so many songs contain sexual suggestive lyrics. It's an incomplete view. To be fair, it's a commonly held incomplete view.
Totally right about Christian black metal my friend! Hortor has no restraint in that department 😂. I especially liked their album titles.... "Ancient satanic rituals are crushed to dust" is the best imo. I really don't like black metal but I very much appreciate the energy they put into it and their zeal in their work to expose the Devil.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ. There's a war, so put on the full armor, hit play and kick butt!
Imma be honest, I've been born and raised in a Christian household, I love God with all my being, he's saved me from death on several occasions.
And the funny thing is, I listen to metal basically 24/7, my favorite bands are Wolves At The Gate, August Burns Red, War of Ages, Demon Hunter, Fit For A King, Phinehas & Becoming The Archetype. Yet when people meet me, when word does get back to me, they always are like "That dude was pretty cheerful/optimistic" or I leave a positive impact of some kind. It really irritates me when people say stuff like "that guy must not he happy because he listens to so much metal." I was born, raised & believe the So. Baptist doctrine, but I can't help but to disagree with a lot of what was said in this one sided discussion.
My point in saying this, is to those who might read this comment, and you feel like listening to the music you love is somn bad, don't, so long as it doesn't go against what the Bible says or what God has commanded us to do, then it is fine, enjoy what you want, be it Veil of Maya or Impending Doom, if it does not speak out against the Lord.
Oh yeah Wolves at the Gate ftw!
I grew up in the black church, as a heavy listener of metal, and I remember at one fellowship service I was wearing a shirt from c28 that had a scripture from revelation, and said “Faithful Until Death” with a skull on it. A guy roughly my age walks up to me in a suit after service and points at my shirt with an uncomfortable look on his face and says “hey man do you know what *that* means?” (Pointing at the skull). I was confused. He repeats the question and then says “bro, the skull is death and flesh and demonic tendencies.” I looked back at him and asked him if he even read the shirt. He did not. I pointed to the scripture then told him, the skull was merely a graphic to represent the scripture. (Aside from the fact everyone in the building literally has a skull in their own head, by design lol). He just shakes it off tells me to “be careful”. I really honestly didn’t understand any of that interaction over my T-shirt because it seemed like a joke almost, but it was telling about the church’s one-sided untested opinion on certain matters. Shortly after that, I wanted to do something dramatic so about a month later we had a youth service at our own church, and I was a worship leader. I opened service by playing Underneath The Gun’s “Deathcard”. Over the speakers. Needless to say, they were not feeling it 😂.
I read some study recently showing that metal listeners are happier than most people.
@@AndyWrasman I've heard about that study, from my experience, it seems to be true. Nine times out of ten, when I've met a metalhead who wasn't happy, it's because they had something difficult going on.
@@garrettmccullough2249 Yep! Wolves At The Gate for life!
That this only now came into my recommended videos, given my music viewing and my viewing of Canon Press (& adjacent) content, indicates astonishing weakness in UA-cam's algorithm.
I said the exact same thing haha
Same!
Forreal lol faith and music is a rough one for me
@@tylerbasham1491 Oh, I pretty well sorted out my convictions on the matter years ago. I just would have liked to be part of the interactions on this long before it was a relic by UA-cam standards.
The “death” in death metal I believe comes from the band Death, with chuck being the front man and performing intricately while screaming lyrics in his tone. I don’t believe the death comes from literal death-inducing energy.
Also the very concept of death for a Christian is not the same scary and mysterious idea that it is for the masses.
Yep. I've always been under the impression that Death, the band, basically combined traditional heavy metal with speed metal/
thrash to create Death Metal. Obviously many bands have extrapolated on that, getting more technical or otherwise, but you can hear traditional heavy metal and thrashy stuff in most death metal.
it does come from that energy lol
Before I was saved by The Grace of The Father and the Love of Jesus Christ, I was deep into occultism and I enjoyed lots of metal and rock bands that were blatantly occult in their views and texts. After I was saved by Jesus I threw it all away and now I still enjoy metal, but bands that are by Christians. I often find myself glorifying God through many types of music including Christian metal.
im right there with ya brother.
Amen
hallelujah brother. Well I think but that's my opinion that as long as the lyrics don't glorify the devil or blaspheme you can also hear other metal bands. If you only go after that, you shouldn't listen to hip hop, blues, soul and others ;). God protect you all.
Thank you Lord Jesus Christ that we Christians are all saved by Grace 🧎❤️🙏
any examples? ^^
I just put the related video links into the description. Thanks for the question!
Christian metal is the response by believers who understand that we are in a war, by the very nature of our existence; and that most other Christians are blind to this war, such that we feel that we stand alone. We must put on the armor of God every day. For some of us, Christian metal functions as our armor bearer. At the same time, I speak for many when I say that there are not too many enjoyable artists in the arena of "upbeat sounding" major key tonality music--especially on the topic of lyrics, and of these, many can come across as watered down or even apostate upon closer inspection. Incidentally, Christian metal can serve as a way to reach people who won't go to a traditional church, but will go to a rock concert.
I listen to heavy/death metal when lifting heavy weights. That's the time and place.
Amen!
You're not lifting heavy enough.
@@duncescotus2342 I can't disagree!
@@orospakr A true athlete for Christ. Ok, just like Paul Anderson. I bless your ministry. Watch it take off!
@@michaelsilveradventure5712 I would think Taylor Swift would piss you off into a superhumanly strong state.
Touring in a Christian metal band for a good part of my adult life, i can tell you that this music allows you to relate to the darkest corners of humanity and brings light to it.
Um ... no one needs death metal to "relate to the darkest corners of humanity". We've got that built-in. Bring it to light? Why would we want to bring the darkest corners of humanity to light?
@@stegokitty Re-read what was written ... You misunderstood
@@THEEArmoredSaint Really? The writer of the OP didn't say that I misunderstood. Do you have access to his mind? Mind spending a moment actually supporting your claim rather than making a vague assertion?
@@stegokitty Bringing light into the darkness and bringing the darkness to the light are both necessary in this day and age. You may find this hard to believe but metal heads are actually way more primed for spiritual encounters than those depraved souls feeding their brains with contemporary pop music and all the more nuanced subtleties of it's morally bankrupt messaging. “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”
@@troyerthedestroyer I’m guessing that you are referring to Christian metalheads rather than to metalheads in general. To that, I would have to say “Well I should certainly hope so, seeing as they’re Christians, no matter how misguided they are”. But if you mean metalheads in general, you are sadly mistaken, as there’s no quantifiable difference, spiritually speaking, between the two. Lost is lost is lost. The problem that I’m (primarily) speaking of is that there’s no recognizable difference in how secular metal sounds and that of its Christian counterpart. It sounds the same. You’ve got people growling and talking like an idiot Cookie Monster for no good reason. How does that have anything whatsoever to do with Christianity? And it’s all so tired and trite and worn out. Totally unoriginal. Even the ridiculous, indecipherable logos look the same. Like I said in another comment, it’s basically like saying Christian Porn.
The problem with Doug’s take, or anyone’s for that matter after only hearing part of this one song, is that BtA’s Dichotomy has anything but one timbre. That’s what made these guys so special. This album and the debut are extremely diverse. His comment also seems to imply that those who listen to this music may only listen to this kind of music. I personally don’t know a metal fan who only listens to metal.
"Either you don't understand your life, or your life is a mess." Or... you just like MeTaL! :)
How am I not surprised that two grandfather's don't understand loud music lol. Can't even pretend to be shocked
They are all over the spectrum with all sorts of styles incorporated. The Epigone is one of the greatest, most victorious worship songs I’ve ever heard.
There’s nothing that I can say
That hasn’t already been said
I’m just repeating myself
Repeating someone else
I’m equally incapable of uttering a single new thought
But You are ever worthy of adoration
So how can I for a moment
Cease to lift my heart in praise?!
Your name is Glory
My song is victory
I will keep on singing
Your name is Glory
My song is victory
There is no opposition
There is no opposition
There is no opposition
Nothing…
Can stand…
In Your way!!!
Make my life Your own
Make my life…
Your own
Just as important as the lyrics are how the they are told. The music in that song is incredible. When I hear that song I think of king David dancing so hard his clothes fell off. Can’t do that with most most modern Christian music.
And, yes, to what he was talking about the northern pagans getting amped up using a timbre such as this. It’s testosterone. It’s like the fight song going into a stadium, the gym, or battle. I’m burnt out on weak, limp wristed contemporary worship songs. I’m not saying there’s no place for contemporary worship. But I enjoy something that has some grunt to it. This is in-fact a spiritual war.
“We’ll probably have to do a follow up” 😆
Although I would agree with what Doug says, I think people forget other attributes of music. The type of music you listen to all the time is so subjective and chosen for your life at that moment. I use to listen to nothing but the so called "death metal music" for a long time. I didn't do it though because I was in a dark place or was ready to go war, but because it actually relaxed me, because I would listen to it, and be amazed at some of the stuff that these people would play.
I actually had the opportunity the meet and hangout with the people from becoming the archetype. They actually didn't really like to play the music they made because they simply grew out of it. But the reason they keep making it, and playing it is because there are people out there who only listen to this kind of music, and becoming the archetype would be ashamed if they stopped reaching those people.
But yes to say it is of the devil is crazy. God has used this band many times in my life. Check out these lyrics from there song end of the age
The earth is shaking
Because of His wrath
The mountains tremble
At the sound of His voice
He pulls down the sky
To crush His enemies
He descends upon them with fire
He is clothed in greatness
His voice resounds throughout the earth
His vengeance no longer is contained
His light destroys the darkness
If He speaks the earth will crumble
If He moves the universe will fall
He is clothed in greatness
His voice resounds throughout the earth
With the valleys of the seas exposed
And the surface of the earth laid bare
He reached down into the void
He reached down and took hold of me!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Man, I got chills just reading the lyrics.
I love it.
A lot of metalcore band members don’t listen to metal, they just grew out of it or are around it so much that it gets old. I like most genre’s of music but metal will always be my favorite
When he called atonal classical music a rebellion against God (4:24) I actually laughed out loud.
No kidding! That was enough to make me completely disregard anything else he said
He has his own opinion, though
@@aryeh24 I don't like how he phrased it as fact
@@DarthCalculus i get it
I don’t think he was saying it’s rebellious for being atonal or classical in the instrumentation. I think he meant the intent of the majority of the people in that genre. But i don’t know anything about the character of people involved in that genre of music so I won’t speak on that. I could be wrong he may be saying the instrumental composition is rebellious in itself. I don’t really understand why that would be the case because it seems kind of arbitrary. But maybe he’s onto something with the Ecclesiastes thing. I don’t have that doctrine solid enough to go around saying certain musical frequencies are rebellious or heretical. It seems to come down to the intent of the heart and the message being put forth. Maybe sounds have messages? No clue 🤔
I would say that Jason Wisdom, the founder of this band, would be willing to do an interview with Doug 🤷🏻♂️
I sent him the link. Maybe so... im interested on his thoughts.
I am pleased Doug talks alot about the importance of context!
One can argue the Christian life is about warfare! Also bands like Mortification and Stryper have amazing lyrics.
Becoming the Archetype had me in floods of tears with the track Breathing Light summing up the end of the book of Revelation in a beautiful and savage way.
This album is a masterpiece!
Agreed! But there is a time and place for it.
Anyone saying all extreme metal has only one timbre hasn't listened to much metal
True
But it always has a predominant timbre, that’s why it’s called metal and not reggae.
^Found the guy who doesn't listen to metal
Would you say the same of dynamics?
most extreme metal has screaming. only thrash is singing that I know of.
That album had How Great Thou Art on it. Great album!
One of my favorites.
Probably one of my favorite lyricists in the industry overall.
I feel as though death metal music fits into the feel of my life. I’ve experienced so much trauma and problems with mental health throughout my life and metal music in general makes me feel like I’m strong enough to actively fight in the spiritual warfare I’ve gone through my whole life. We’re all in this war as humans, especially for us in the Kingdom of God. It has been a fight to not end my own life in many seasons of my life.
Now I thank Christ Jesus for all of these problems, because it made me accept God’s unequaled love.
I’ve recently been experiencing a lot of noticing just how “not of the world” I’ve been my whole life. None of my family listens to metal like I do, and all of my friends who are into metal do not know the Lord. I’ve never fit in anywhere I’ve been.
The schemes of the enemy will not prosper because God will never abandon us. I trust Him in that He is more powerful than any of His creations, including the enemy. I feel His presence when I listen to metal. I feel His love when I’m crying. I trust Him because He has never ONCE let me down. All suffering is ultimately for my benefit, as He knows it builds character. He surpasses any of the metal I could ever find.
I feel like the clip was chosen to elicit a negative reaction from the pastor, but he handled it quite well and with an open mind. We need more of that in the church
Never thought I would hear pastor Doug react to becoming the archetype! Love it!. But Doug, you should have listened to the whole song! Lots of different "tamber?" in that one song alone! No genre covers so many different styles and tones as metal does. Metal bands can be very soft and very heavy and everything in between.
Timbre
Something wrong with you bud
@@elijahgrajkowski2505 is it really? I googled it and tamber refers to musical tones and matched what Doug was saying perfectly. Oh well, "Timbre" then. I'm Australian so it sounds like he is saying tamber to me.
@@Im_No_Expert_72 Maybe. And you too if you have read you're Bible.
@@hgpilott It is spelled "timbre" and pronounced "tambre". :)
Glad Doug didn’t completely write off the genre. I remember a time when Christian metal was about all I listened to. End of The Age specifically was so good I listened on repeat for a few months. I have grown to appreciate a balance of genres since then and I still come back to End of The Age. “With the valleys of the seas exposed and the surface of the Earth laid bare! He reached down into the void! He reached down and took hold of me!”
If it weren't for Christian metal i wouldn't be a believer in christ today. People are different and God knows us, as well as how to reach us. He speaks stronger to me through metal than any standard worship song ever has. Metal has litterally brought me to tears of joy and physically brought me to my knees in pure awe of Gods wonder. Metal is not just angry music for a certain time and place. It is just as valid a form of worship as any regular Kind of worship.
All this kind of gatekeeping is achieving, is pushing people who is in desperate need of Christ, further away from Him, and I pity both them as well as the man who think he knows what God deems as fitting worship.
Amen.
Playing thunderstruck in your tank sounds awesome
Christian metal reflects the lament psalms, which are for different kinds of occasions. Some people's lives set them up for laments more so than hymns.
Last month a survey shows people who listen to this kind of music are more happier.
Im currently starting a Christian metal project, been reading all the different opinions and one thing that is weighing on my heart is the fact that metal music does encourage one to want to mosh and get wild which in turn is a form of violence. Ive been praying about it but I can't seem to break this level of conviction I have. Our bands goal is to be the counterpart to these bands like Lorna Shore, Slaughter to prevail, etc but with a true message of faith and repentence. Im learning in my walk with Christ that we do really need to put away what WE think is good for what Christ wants us to do. The music is the best ive ever written and ive sacrificed my entire life at my shop working on this project everyday, going through disipleship, getting saved, baptized, bible studies, and at the end of the day this music project led me to the church and led me to turning my life around and giving my soul to Christ which im thankful for. But there's still that level of conviction in my heart, because even devils profess Jesus is lord... Im scared that what im doing and how much ive sacraficed for this will be in vain because we're making extremely agressive music that if you were to show an african tribesman or someone in Israel this kind of music and it would be second nature that theyd think its evil. Like would it be acceptable to play this kind of music in the church? And even if there is a church that promotes metal, are they the kind of church that has Lgtbq pastors affirming peoples chosen genders? In a really tough spot becuase we want to preach the gospel but it is an appearence of evil that we are told to abstain from but on the other hand, you got people like Tosin Abasi from animals as leaders and bands like Dream Theater who push the boundries of whats humanly possible to play and then pop and trap artists that play 4 notes the whole song, so I ask which is really satanic? The ones playing the scales and chords closest to classical musical and the birth of music theory revealed by the church or a mockery of it using 4 notes in a trap beat? Seriosuly struggling with this one guys and would be nice to get some sort of clarity. The music we make has a lot of "breeeeeeessss!!!" 😂😂😂
What is your band name?
@@DanielSantiagoForChrist Still a little bit undecided on that. We have a few ideas floating around, but mainly been focused on the writing for the past year and working in on honing our skill and getting the best work we can possibly get together for our Lord Jesus. Still feeling convicted, the consensus right now is that we're going to put out the spiritual war drum music as a start and move onto more melodic stuff/pop punk later on, but it's still dawning on me about putting this material out. It did feel good in the moment, and it's powerful music with an amazing message but like I said in the comment, there's still that small piece of conviction I have, and you can have 99% purity of something but that 1% of poison is still poison. Idk man.
it exterme tempo that want people to mosh. I think its is above 180 bpm. mosh become a thing when hardcore punk come to be and I why Play punk rock at traditional punk tempo.
What music would Doug recommend??
Great perspective and thoughts on this issue
230 Sunday afternoon? I listen to this on the way home from church. With my wife and sons in the vehicle with me.
There is no way to give an informed opinion of this band without listening (to at least) an entire song. But I appreciate you giving it listen.
We-e-ell... I agree with the general point, and during the time of my life when I was listening all metal, all the time, I was working through some issues, so granted. But "End of the Age" is one that you really have to listen all the way through and on a good sound system. Throughout the song, the tone does change, and the effect in the end, at least to me, is one of a thunderstorm ending with a drenching, cleansing rain. And to someone who understands metal a bit better and doesn't hear someone shouting and immediately get stuck on the emotion of anger, the metal growling in this song suggests grandeur rather than fury. Listening to five seconds through a cellphone speaker... I'm gonna question that methodology for analyzing a whole song. No disrespect, just saying.
Yes and their other material make use of many different timbres and dynamics. Acoustic , piano passages, a whole flamenco song. More progressive metal than death, although the vocals do take some getting used to. And yeah… most music sounds terrible listening through a cellphone speaker…especially metal.
Exactly, I don't know of any genre that covers as many tones and emotions as metal. And also, it's one of the few genres that Christians do better than the world.
Gonna have to agree with you guys here. When I’m in the gym, I usually listen to Gospel music. But, certain levels of effort in the gym require a bit of aggression. So, I have found For Today, Fit for a King, Impending Doom, and In the Midst of Lions to befitting for those times. Then again, sometimes I just feel like listening to that type of music and I don’t see anything wrong with that. As long as it’s edifying Christ and the Church with the lyrics…what’s the issue?
Becoming the Archetype 🤘
P.S. The reason it's called Death Metal is because the band that pioneered the sound was named Death.
It's pretty funny that he says death metal is all one timbre, when later in that very track there's a beautiful section with acoustic guitar and piano. Another track on the album is a classical guitar solo.
Tuning into 8.5 minutes of the meditative drone of Fall on Your Knees (Holy Name) is like putting on the Armor of God piece by piece.
"Tommy Greene explains the need for Christian Metalcore" is a great interview on this topic.
Even before I was in Christ, I couldn’t stand any version of death metal. I’ve never been able to tolerate music where I can’t understand the lyrics and where there is just screaming, yelling, and a militant, loud, driving tone *all* of the time.
I have loved metal music, but becoming Christian, I grew against it, even the Christian kind. Not because it is satanic but because I do not find it genuine worship to God. The lyrics are incomprehensible, it is just supposed to be noise, and a good load of the music is intended to attract the attention of many. If the lyrics are incomprehensible, how can you trust that the song is theologically sound? How can you wholly worship God with words of truth in your song of praise? I don't know the heart(s) of the artist(s) but metal, no, ALL MUSIC, is not made to gain the attention of man and to please them as well, but rather to worship God in spirit and truth.
@@yuypergollece6187 it's not worship music. It's just music. Christian mainstream music sucks for the most part and modern "worship" is more satanic than any metal
@@CCSI322 there's plenty of Christian metal "worship" but sometimes it feels like it's more worshipping the audience than God Himself.
But yes, you have a point.
I want to avoid secular music for the worst part but I can't turn on the radio and listen to something like K-POP radio lest they start blasting Reckless Love in my ears.
One can always read the lyrics, then they can pick up the pronunciation.
I love Becoming the Archetype so much and not only would I put this album, Dichotomy, in my top 10, but that song, The End of the Age, is my favorite track and it always brings me to glorious tears as I sing Hallelujah at the end!
That said, Doug is completely right. I couldn't listen to nothing but BtA or August Burns Red, or In the Midst of a Lions all the time. I need music that brings me peace and tranquility more often than I need music to get excited with. Nothing beats the classic hymns.
Come Thou Fount:
Oh, to grace how great a debtor
Daily I'm constrained to be
Let Thy goodness like a fetter
Bind my wandering heart to Thee
Prone to wander, Lord I feel it
Prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart, oh take and seal it
Seal it for Thy courts above
How Deep the Father's Love for Us:
Behold the man upon a cross
My sin upon His shoulders
Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers
It was my sin that held Him there
Until it was accomplished
His dying breath has brought me life
I know that it is finished
Blessed Assurance:
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God
Born of his Spirit, washed in His blood
And every single lyric of In Christ Alone
Excuse? I use deathmetal/heavy metal to relax and cool myself, sometimes listen to it when I need to cool down for bed.
Very good. Thought provoking.
Becoming the Archetype rock - praise God 🙌✝️
This song clearly raises your heart rate and adrenaline. It activates your fight or flight. Regardless of how the lyrics and beat make you feel (triumph, pain, wonder, etc), the timbre will always succeed in making you wanna run or punch someone. So I agree with the pastor that there's a time and place.
I could agree, though there are billions of occasions in one’s life, some of which would clearly be fitting for both war and hate (justly so). This criticism seems to suggest neither of those times may be important which is counterintuitive to his own statement.
It’s somewhat interesting yet 1. There could not exist a genre of art nor music that god could not produce good out of. I think he simplifies that too much. 2. He extrapolates “tamber” AND musicianship to a fairly a literal extent but likely would not do so relative to modern worship music! A majority of which is simply pitiful. 3. His last comment referring to peoples lives being a mess: A partial point of the Old Testament is that we are a mess without God. Your life may not have to be a mess to appreciate that fact, and therefore this music, which glorifies God and may or may not unction one to appreciate such a statement.
Oh, and please don’t forget how classical music invokes similar parts of the brain, inducing adrenaline rushes, stimulating fight or flight, etc…
@@logansmith8553 There is a time and place. Note that this statement does not say that there isn't a time. Note that this statement does not say none of these times are important. It says there is a time. Kindly reanalyse.
@@odanedmcdonald See my actual criticisms and re-analyze thanks
> the timbre will always succeed in making you want to run or punch somebody
That's an incredibly strong claim, that can be disproven if anyone were to fall asleep while listening to it-which I have.
The Christian bands always have the heaviest , most brutal breakdowns too. If our job of Christians is to spread Gods word to people who need it , I think that Metal would be the place to start
I was in Rasputin music during the holidays years ago where they were playing 'Silent Night' death metal version. Needless to say I had to leave the store and couldn't even stay to get what I wanted to get. That's how horrible it was....
@Nathanael Overman Yeah man it was so bad I had to leave the store, for real lol
Kind of ironic, christian heavy metal? When heavy metal started with Black Sabbath, and the prince of darkness himself, still around today, Ozzie, bless his heart.
excellent interpretation of the sounds and the effect that it has on us...
excellent? You mean pathetic. If anything metal is the only genre of music that captures the true power of God.
@@nathanscovell2895 Yeah because God goes about yelling at us in a Cookie Monster voice. Sheesh. Doug is 100% on target and way kinder than he should've been to the "music" being played to him,
You mentioned the band Theocracy but didn’t give any thoughts on it; would like to hear that since it is a very different genre from what was sampled here
I love metal, it has its place like all things.
Indeed.
A lot can be said about the theology and arguments made by these two gentlemen but what gets me the most is the fact that they listened to just 18 seconds of the song, then say, "Ok. that's enough." chuckle and discuss the song, it's timbre and lyrics.
The song is 6:31 long, fellas.
It'd be nice if these two came back, now 10 years later, and did a legitimate "Boomer Pastors react to Christian Death Metal" video to this same song. I wonder if their thoughts would remain the same or if they would have a different perspective. Maybe during this gap they've met a fan of Christian Metal and determined that their life is just a mess? I find it very legalistic to say that you must listen to many genres of music and only according to the state of life you're in. Maybe that's not what Pastor Doug meant but it was what I received.
I really admire the careful thinking of the guy asked to comment
I find it ironic that we can agree that we face spiritual warfare but that you find metal that you defined as for war as not beneficial.
Being a Christian who love Rock music such as Stryper, Holy Soldier ect ect. I get exactly what you’re saying and I agree with it. Of course I listen to many other types of melodic music besides rock. Such as Josh Wilson, Casting Crowns, Mercy me. I think moderation is key. I’ve never heard this discussed In this way and I’m glad I listened to it and thank you for your perspective it has enlightened me
Hey Doug, I really think you should do another one of these but (and also because 😂) you'd probably have to recant at least part of what you said, because these guys mix up a lot of different "tambor" as you put it. The track in mind is deep heaven. It won't be hard to find because it's on this same album⬆️
By the way, you would appreciate the end track, "end of the age".
LIVING SACRIFICE GOT ME THROUGH SOME HARD TIMES ..I NEEDED CHRITIAN METAL.
That's actually one of my favorite songs by them.
“That’s quite enough” 😂
I listen to Emmure and I love my parents
I like the approach in his opinion. He even used scripture to extend his conclusion. He is right. There's gonna be a time where you need to listen to something else. What helps to elevate what YHWH wants to speak to you throughout your life. I find myself listening to what is fitting for the time as well. I love metal. Always have. Always will. It's my thing. Yet, I find myself listening to many other masterpieces that aren't in the genre. In fact, you'll start to construct a beautiful list of music that is unique to your journey. I find myself excited every time I wanna jam to something. Some just are stubborn and enclosed in an identity, a persona if you will. That's dangerous. You're not meant to make another mask, you're meant to be maskless. You're not of this world anymore. You are the image of Abba. Abba is more than anything you can imagine.
listen to the whole song, it's a worship song about the power and glory of Almighty GOD - the tambour is completely appropriate for majesty - another point I would make is metal music a majority of the time is what I would expect a warrior to listen to. Not necessarily a sign of spiritual dilemma. On a side note, their new album is a sci-fi adventure concept.
Timbre.
Doug's on point. Awesomely on point. The point to Ecclesiastes wasn't to denounce death metal but he applies principle and methods. To a degree, his point is that a many Christians today want simplicity and that's clearly wrong. Music takes form and has form. A soldier isn't going to charge into battle listening to Gregorian chants nor will someone suffering an ear infection listen to death metal. This principle applies to worship as well, you don't go into worship wanting to sing death metal but there are boundaries and we have to be able to discern those boundaries.
One does not play the "Curb Your Enthusiasm" them during Eucharist.
I find FANILIARITY WITH THE PASSAGE makes a lot of difference to.
I quite enjoy hearing the opening to Count Dankula's UA-cam videos. It is not something I would want to listen to for extended periods, and that passage on its own is one that I found little enjoyment on my first hearing it, but enjoyment now (when I know how to anticipate every turn of melody and clash of timbre.
And which, in such a small dose, complements his brand.
However, this song would fit a video showing pastor Doug flamethrowing the world down!
As a Christian, and as a metalhead who also likes extreme metal, I’d say that extreme metal is probably inappropriate for church. But traditional heavy metal like Stryper could work with properly worshipful lyrics.
It helped get me saved son
We are in a war everyday! We war against ourself, we war against the devil and we war against the world. "The kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force" so take God's kingdom forcebly and embody the One that gave it to us to be a part of, because but for the grace of God I would be defeated by myself, the devil and the world. (Tbh, I still suffer defeats sometimes but quitting is not an option, fight on Christian soldier). If anything Christian heavy metal band's have their purpose, but only if their message elevates Christ and spurns, rebukes and encourages you to press on in this spiritual war. Turn up the timbre I say! 🙌
"Either you don't understand your life, or you do and your life is a mess".
David's life was a mess. You think all that death, blood, impaling and killing of his day wouldn't warrant music like this? You think the times we're living in, the enemy knowing his time on this earth is almost done, creating more and more vileness in the hearts of creation doesn't parallel the types of battles we face similar to back then?
Open your eyes Doug Wilson, we ain't playing harps anymore. Our worship is for those ready and willing to face and fight the blackest darkness. Metal is our war cry.
You’d probably find most Christian’s that prefer metal over the grotesque depraved “hits” all over our work radios, don’t listen to just the one band, there’s many Christian bands that would be considered “heavy” but I find a lot of more modern heavier Christian bands will mix it up with beautiful cleans and soulful melody to contrast the wall of noise, but I can understand what you’re saying, for a while I’ve believed music influences your behaviour, thought process etc but what you’ve said makes so much sense, I used to feel drained when I would listen to heavy music for months on end and now I switch it up with some acoustic folk Lo fi stuff as well as podcasts and now scripture from time to time. But I agree it’s not a sin to listen to heavy music especially if the intent is in the right place but maybe we should be more aware of not over saturating our mind with it
Duly noted. Now let me get back to my spiritual warfare and listen to it's soundtrack!!
love this song
Woo~! Becoming the Archetype, YAS! \m/
That's...really all I took away from this.
Well, that and some of the nerd stuff.
Easy solution: listen to more than just Christian death metal. Should we assume that those who like this music listen to only this? Moreover, these bands often demonstrate a diversity of styles.
I can kinda agree. As a metalhead. One style doesn't fit every occasion. When I am in a more warfare focused prayer time death metal, death core, thrash and stuff like that is fitting. But there is a time for ballads and I've gotten more out of some ballads than Elevation or Hillsong. Then there's a time for something with heavy emotions like Bloodlines Severed "Man of Sorrows". Unblack metal has more of a depth than death metal. It's how the tamber is used not the tamber itself.
I love Christian rock and metal when I’m lifting heavy weights, but lately I’ve enjoyed contemporary worship (Kari Jobe) the vast majority of the time.
Everything has a time. Be ye angry and sin not.
Is it bringing forth good fruits?
He wanted to start headbangin lol
Yes, I enjoy all. Sorts of music but I have no use for any musical style that can only express rage. And by the music I mean the music itself. Sound expresses things totally apart from the lyrics.
The look on their faces was hilarious
Ben Merkle: "Say when!" 🤣🤣🤣
For Today anyone?
You should have Doug listen to BTA's interludes
i loved heavy music or Christian heavy music, i listen to August burns red, For Today the vocalist Mattie He is now a pastor, i listen also impending doom and lot more yeah.
Most of these bands don't just straightforwardly worship Jesus in their lyrics, but rather are determined to have lyrics which are accessible to the genre as a whole, where they don't want to sound dorky so they focus on assessing Christianity and then expressing that in conformity with the worldly standards of the genre. The spiritual energy of the music is also not in agreement with the mind of Christ. Their conformity, which should be to Christ's mind and image, is rather to the world. Before I was made a new creation, I was a metal-head and punk-rock and rock-n-roller, but when I was made new I discovered I no longer valued those spirits.
I'm not trying to be judgmental of people for their imperfections, I'm just offering a bit of clarity about what the spiritualities of these cultures tend to be. As God sets the Church apart from the world, eventually it becomes impossible to straddle the divide, and people will spiritual be on one side, or the other, of that gap.
You clearly know nothing about Becoming the Archetype; the music is just the medium for a message. They are unapologetically Christian in their lyrics. Skillet is far more vague lyrically on the whole in comparison, but they are acceptable because the music is more digestible.
@@petermain6791 Eyeliner on a man, is to flirt with transgenderism. John Cooper is a bit of a walking contradiction.
Have him analyze "creeping death" by Metallica. Its about the passover.
About the Exodus in general really
Not surprised...🤦♂️
You dont judge a worldview by its genre, you judge it by its substance.
All Christian hymnology was, at one time, born out of folk instruments and tonalities.
It may be that we are witnessing a new folk form, just Bach supplanted Gregorian chant which revised Byzantine, etc.
Wonder how brother Doug would react to bands like WATG, Jesuswannabeez, or HolyName in 2023?
Context is important.
As a Christian who follows Jesus, every day is a battle against the enemy. A literal BATTLE. Some of us use the help of empowering war music like Christian metal that glorifies Jesus to help stomp out Satan and the flesh. I'd say more days we need empowerment in our music rather than the soft friendly praise and worship. There is a time and place for both but I'd argue some of us need more Christian metal than the latter. But ultimately we all know Jesus is the true source of our strength but to say you can only listen to metal at certain times is ignorant to the fact that every day is WAR against darkness.
I listen to Death Metal when I want to relax.
Or maybe we just love metal I still listen to my church style worship music but metal has always been my favorite style
tamber you say; completely agree; the 'tamber' of country music is straight from the pit of hell.