The wacky Trombonium and how it compares to a "normal" instrument
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- I've wanted one of these for ages!
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I feel like King and Conn were trying to out-weird each other throughout the 20th Century. Tromboniums, Flugabones, Double-bells...Oh, my!
I kind of wish some manufacturer would come out with horns with weird design qurkes like those old instruments, seems there is too much conformity to how horns are made these days (I know there are good reasons for that but still). Its like how since the Selmer MK VI saxophones came out, saxophones have mainly from then on went by a similar design layout with the only differences being in materials, bore size, key layout and shape and some having a larger bell. No real differences in the overall design or layout of the saxophones compared to what you used to get especially in the 1920s and 1930s.
Don’t forget the Conn Mellophonium.
@@DynamixWarePro they also used to use solid quartz, agate, and sometimes sodalite. And the engravements were wonderful, I remember a friend of mine in 1952 when we both went to the shop and purchased a dark metallic red alto saxophone with sliver gold (light gold color) embellishments on the keys and pad domes. And the look was just perfect, there was this incredible Bass saxophone from 1923 in the shop as well, boy would we have gotten it if we could.
Regarding the famous four mellophoniums provided by Conn to Stan Kenton from 1960 to ‘63 -
Trombonist Jiggs Whigam's contempt for the mellophoniums also made the pages of Jazz Journal International:
“I was in the '63 band, the mellophone band, and the most difficult thing I had to do playing first trombones in that band was to try to estimate where the pitch was going to be with the mellophones. It varied within roughly an octave on any given day!”
@@brucekuehn4031 My high school marching band had eight of those beasts. Imagine teenagers trying to tame them.
it's interesting that despite the cylindrical bore, the trombonium still lacks "edge" and sounds pretty similar to the tenor horn
That's likely to do with how closed the wrapping of the tubing is, from my experience, trombone gives off a unique tone due to how open the horn is, which is why its one one my favorite brass Instruments.
You need to have a large bell to get the edge. If you remove the bell of a trombone, it becomes completely tame despite being even more fully cylindrical.
@@haomingli6175 yeah, that immediate flare along with the short, open nature of the tubing gives the trombone its energy; blasting is so easy on it; on the euphonium, its way more tame and the blasts require so much breath due to the slow taper and conical nature.
i prefer the soft, pleasant sound of the euphonium, but the trombone has undeniable energy
A strange brass instrument having slightly wonky intonation!? I’m shocked, shocked I tell you!
-Sincerely,
A mellophone player
Hahahaha I love Mellophone
The Frumpet agrees with you.
@@DynamixWarePro lmao F tuned brass taking Ls
Mellophones aren't the worst instruments for tuning. The mellophonium, those hybrid baritone-euphoniums that Jupiter and a few Chinese factories make, and the Getzen Flumpet are all fighting for bad-idea supremacy.
@@jessebrook1688 exactly I love Mellophone ^-^
nice, but it doesn't really 'bone'. the typical 'bone' thing is the 'slidy bit' and the 'slidy sound'. so i think the name is wrong. it's more like an upright baritone trumpet if you ask me. and since i play recorder, i'm kind of an expert.... cheers!
Trumpets in this range are actually called bass trumpets... because who cares about consistency. I have a valve trombone that should be a different wrap of the same instrument.
Trombone comes from an Italian word meaning big trumpet. The slidy bit is a optional.
So a bumphet then?
yes, it does have it's own sound, warmer than cylindrical bore trombone. I'd like to compare it to a flugelbone. this horn is more of a variant of altonium than a valve trombone
@@pauls5745 a flugabone, a valve trombone and a bass trumpet are pretty close together in most regards. They take the same mouthpiece and have about the same bore profile in different wraps. In fact the formal name of a flugabone is marching trombone.
Trent you have such a great tone when you play! I just picked up playing again after more than a decade off, I am still getting my chops back. I envy and enjoy your wonderful playing. Thanks for sharing these instruments with us all.
It almost sounds like the difference between a baritone and a euphonium
One of the original users of the trombonium was The Ohio State University Marching Band. By 1935 Eugene Weigel, director, had introduced an all-brass instrumentation for the band, based on his experience traveling in Britain and hearing the brass bands there. He felt the band would be louder in the big stadium in Columbus (originally 74,00 seats, not over 100,000). Whether or not louder, the band has remained all brass through that time and still today. The band is these days the most viewed of USA gridiron marching bands on social media (You Tube) by a wide margin. Later directors have consistently tried to improve the sound of that brass makeup. From around 1950 Jack Evans (a high school bandmate of Frederick Fennell) was modifying the instrumentation, but the trombonium was kept for a long time due to its collapsed size enabling close marching formations without worrying about the slide. This was especially helpful in doing the band's trademark marching routine, 'Script Ohio', where in a faux 'follow the leader' style the word Ohio is spelled out in real time; the 'crossovers' in the big 'O' and the 'h' are still a thrill to watch. It wasn't until the eighties that the band finally decided that the band couldn't go on without a real trombone sound and the trombonium was dropped. Richard Keller (OSUMB 1960-1964, snare drum), now in Wellington, New Zealand.
I'm in Wellington too! Small world.
@@TrentHamilton Hi Trent, I used to play with Porirua Brass but now am with Wellington City Concert Band
@@richardkeller3154 Oh nice. I did a stint with them for about 6 months years back - tuba.
Cool…on a school trip in 1977, we visited OSU, and I saw tromboniums up close…a few years later, I think they changed to trombones.
Richard…my band director (Ray Foster, Xenia High School) was an OSU grad from sometime around that era (maybe 58 to 60).
Is trombonium the material trombones are made with?
„To annoy the person of your choosing“ 😂😂 that is exactly what the bell is for 😂
Great video! Jay and Kai would do duets on it. Loving your background
Wow! Two of my favorites commenting on each other's channels! 😮
The Conn 90G trombonium is a far superior instrument to the King version. Being large bore it is wide open and has an excellent tone. I spent 14 years looking for one, and now that I have one I use it for a variety of performances!
The "trombonium" was meant to take the place of the trombone in the marching band, and sounds more like the t-bone than the also-featured baritone (to me, using a trombone in a marching band was . There was at least one manufacturer who made a bell-front version, which we all called a marching trombone. Our band used a couple of them until they pretty much were used up, and switched to marching baritones. If you haven't already, it'd be cool to see you do a video on the flugabone, if you could get one.
Agreed. I think it was USC's marching band that had a huge section of tromboniums. It's much easier to switch any 3-valve brass player to another 3-valve instrument than to get them to feel out correct intonation on a slide.
I think the second, lower tuning slide on the 3rd valve is actually there for spit removal instead.
I lived in NZ about 20 years ago and I think you pronounce "iff" perfectly! I tried to acquire the Kiwi accent but I was only there for year and it didn't take!
Gotta say, as a slide trombone player I really hate the sound of that thing. I mean the instrument itself and not Trent's wonderful playing.
Total agreement here.
I think the trombonium would be much better for marching… bested only by none other than the actual trombone, which would be louder and brighter. Of all the standard indoor concert/orchestral style instruments the one already best suited to outdoor use was the trombone. Despite the space the slide needs, this solves a problem no trombone player wanted solved. The trumpet would be the next best suited, so I guess we shall have to wait for a genius to build the trumpetium to make it worse.
Ohio State used these for a few decades, in part because of the tight intervals and pass throughs in Script Ohio. Probably the most reliable way to see one of these horns in use is to watch their alumni band.
One of my not-so-fond memories of trombones in marching band was the basics block, where it was not uncommon for someone to right flank instead of left flank (usually a rookie), and so you would hear “Left Flank Hut! “CLANG!” and hope somebody didn’t either get decapitated, or get a busted lip. Good times. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@tubaman6226 as someone in Ohio State's Alumni Band, you're lucky to have maybe one trombonium show up for the reunion performance. Most of the trombonium players have switched back to slide trombones, or simply are too old to be marching anymore. The trombonium was phased out of the OSUMB in 1982.
Sounds similar to a tenor horn . I feel like Conn missed an oppertunity to call their trombonium a Connbonium or something similar given their weird naming systems of their old instruments.
Silver Threads Amongst The Gold. I wonder where you got the inspiration to feature it?
What an interesting concept. Since it was made for marching bands I was wondering how much power it could project.
And I always associate a Saxhorn with those horns popular during the mid 19th century for military bands during the American Civil War. The bells pointed back over the shoulder to the rear. Old Adolphe really was a prolific inventor.
You're thinking of "Over the shoulder" horns :)
Interestingly those instruments have absolutely nothing to do with Sax yet we call them saxhorns anyway
US band instruments are purchased by the truckload and are likewise retired by the truckload to be melted down, which is why it seems that old band instruments mysteriously vanish into a Black Hole after their day is done. You have to get lucky, finding the odd instrument that someone nicked back in the day and held on to.
Honestly, any attempt to create a trombone that doesn't have a slide is a failure in my opinion. The slide provides an openness that valves cannot and the notes articulate differently and transition differently than a valved instrument. That's why valve trombones just don't really sound like trombones. I know there are technical definitions of what defines a trombone, however in practicality, it needs a slide. You take the biggest and most key defining feature of a trombone that makes it unique to almost every other band instrument out there, and get rid of it, you no longer have a trombone. That's just the way I see it. I think marching bands that use trombones have guts and look super cool and sound incredible. In my opinion, if you're too wimpy to march with a real trombone then you're too wimpy to be in a marching band.
Mate. Apart from the marching band bit, only because I've never played with one, you are absolutely spot on. Have never been a fan of the valve trombone either.
@@ScratchySlide I play trombone and march with it, they are very very light instruments and the way you hold them is such it isn’t inconvenient to march with it, the weight is supported mainly by your shoulder
@@matthewpalm7484 Yeah, I've marched with them too. The only real difficulty I can find is reaching 7th position while sliding to the right.
@@Xzyum00 OH DON'T EVEN REMIND ME, I literally marched last night
@@Xzyum00 Is it just me or is back marching the easiest to execute but hardest to learn?
Now I'm waiting for the opposite to exist; the Euphone, which is a euphonium with a slide.
I want an instrument that combines the conical bore and hollow sound of the euphonium with the slide of a trombone.
Agreed. What a precarious combination.
That would sound nice but it would be hard to have a conical slide 🤷🏼♂️
There is one successful attempt at this, where the bore of the inner slide was tapered (although the outer tube of the inner slide was cylindrical). Didn't catch on given how expensive it was to make.
@@joshuathedank9661 a variable geometry slide made of materials that I don't think yet exists. Problem solved.
@@TrentHamilton I don't think that the slide itself needs to be conical, as the tubing for the piston valves of euphoniums is cylindrical, and they cover the same tubing length as a slide. I think what matters more is the overall bore, and especially the widening of the tubing after the slide
I really don't mean to be offensive in anyway, but did you lose weight? You look good! Good on you! Probably very late to the party lmao
So, it sounds like the trombonium is to a baritone horn, roughly what a trumpet is to a cornet.
You always sound so good on these somewhat sketchy instruments! Love this review! Thanks, Trent!!!
Juan Tizol played the Valve Trombone & this instrument has that sound
Isn't the parallels as such: Flugelhorn is higher version of Euphonium (and Tuba), Cornet is higher version of Baritone (and Bass Saxhorn) and Trumpet is higher version of Trombonium (and Cimbasso)?
I wish you had thrown Bach baritone into the mix.
I wish there was a “Bass trombonium” which has similar specs to a bass trombone.
The Conn version of this was large shank. If it had a 4th valve it might be fairly close to what you're looking for.
@@tubaman6226 Ik there are 4 valve euphoniums, but I’m talking about a 5 valve euphonium with a bass trombone size bell and tubing, yk?
You might want to look at a Cimbasso
There are some 4-valve compensating baritone horns. Smaller bell and less conical than the euphonium yet not as cylindrical as a bass trombone.
I didn’t expect to hear Silver Threads Among the Gold in this video, either way sounds beautiful on both instruments! 👏
I’d like to see how the intonation compares to valve trombones produced at the same time, it would provide more insight into that claim.
While the intonation might not be better vs a valve trombone, I find my trombonium to have much better resistance than a valve trombone. Not sure if the only valve trombone I played was just awful, but I found it to be incredibly stuffy. Since slide trombones offer little resistance, I find playing the valve bone to be miserably stuffy. Playing the trombonium, on the other hand, is enjoyable.
This was all caused by the Americans selling Baritones as "Euphoniums" and then trying to make something to fill the space of the Baritone. Once America understood the Euphonium it all got a lot more sensible.
I dunno why I see so many comments taking this as an opportunity to bag on the American Euphonium, but please. The British Baritone Horn and the "Baritone" are not the same thing and do not, cannot, and have never filled the same role. The American Euphonium (see: Conn 20-I) and "Baritone" are also not the same. I am aware of the numerous (crappy) Baritones that have been produced and played over the years. As it pertains to American wind bands, the Euphonium and Baritone (not British Baritone Horn) fill the same role.
Late 1800s American bands had a three part 9'Bb "Saxhorn" section of Bb Tenor, Bb Baritone, and Bb Bass parts. All of those instruments got replaced because they sucked. Bb Tenor is basically a British Baritone Horn with a smaller bore and played with a tiny mouthpiece. A real PITA, and dead by the 1930s because it was pointless. Bb Baritone was obviously replaced by the Euphonium because the only thing the Euphonium doesn't do better is be affordable. Bb Bass was in such a hurry to die a death that I've never even seen an American manufacturer refer to such a thing in a post-1900 catalog, but a few of the dirt old King and Conn designs appear to match. The Bass 'bone took over the musical role while the instrument itself got sucked into the conglomerate of Baritone and Euphonium marketing wank.
The trombonium plays nothing like a British baritone.
Definitely sounds more like a trombone, has more edge than a baritone. Still lacks the projection though
In the side by side, I certainly heard the similarity of the trombonium to a trombone. It has a bit of that brightness or edge to the tone. The baritone was a bit mellower, not at all unlike a tuba. Which shouldn't be surprising at all.
Haven’t been in this channel in a while. I see you’ve lost some weight. Looking good, dude!
what kind of difference does the valve placement make? like front-facing vs. at the top?
Omg!!!! Trent how much weight did you lose??!!!?! I barely even recognize you!!!!!
The Key of iieff
These Trombonium meets the Ideal sound, as demanded by Giuseppe Verdi. So, With Brass-Atelier Peletti (Milan) Verdi described after the 1870's the 'Trombone Basso ('Verdi)
This was, following the Cimbasso Corno 'm Basso: Narrow mensured maintube, long Cylindric, short Conical but a smaller bell-rim.... So, also the valved- trombone's were- and are used in Opera orchestras. The original 'Saxhorns' had also a long-cylindrical eng (small) mensuration. Not comparable with the modern 'saxhorns' (barytone, Euphonium, EEb bass and BBb bass in Reed/Brassbands in USA GB and on continent Europe...
Around Ohio State, the story goes that the OSUMB director, Dr. Eugene Weigel, encouraged H.N. White to develop the trombonium in around 1933 at Whites Cleveland, Ohio factory.. I have always been told that Dr. Weigel wanted a horn that did not stick out in front and thereby collide with the bandsman ahead. This has always been a problem with our band because of the famous "Script Ohio" formation. Since we march basically in single file to perform the "Script", there are two places where almost everyone needs to cross between other bandsmen in order to proceed. The first cross is at the line coming down out of the large "O". The second follows quickly as you cross the stem of the "H" in order to move on to the "I" and then finish in the "O". We used the tromboniums until the '70s' when Dr. Paul Droste brought back the trombones. This had to be done since H.N. White was the only shop that made them and they closed up. But in addition, Dr. Droste rightly felt that the trombone provided a superior tone and better projection. If I have gotten any of these details wrong, I am sure that other OSUMB fans will quickly offer corrections. GO BUCKS !
This looks something like a demented Wagner tuba...albeit with a cylindrical bore
Bark circa 1950 the school music teacher (who doubled as a King instrument salesperson) sold my parents a King Liberty trumpet for me -- and the possibility was mentioned that if the trumpet didn't work out for me, she could switch me to a trombonium. I'm sure there would have been an additional exchange of cash involved, but the switch didn't happen. Nice to actually see one and hear one! Thanks!!
If I could only afford to buy as many brass instruments as you have...
We make fun of the way you pronounce F because you have such a thick kiwi accent. It’s all in good fun. It’s like that ad where the kiwi kid wants a new bed but Santa hears “beard.” We love you, Trent. Keep playing in the key of if!
I dunno. I definitely hear the british baritone as being more euph-like for sure. A better (or complimentary) comparison would have been with a trombone (and/or valve trombone) of the same bore. Cheers📯
I just saw your video on the rotary bass trumpet from around maybe 2015... This horn seems like what you wamted that to be. Its tone is maybe not quite as bright and forward as a bass trumpet but it certainly is brighter than tenor and baritone horns and certainly euphoniums. Its format lends itself well to a 4th valve and/or compensating tubes if that was ever of interest to the designer to include.
My school has a similar type of instrument; we call it a ‘’marching trombone” and it’s essentially a marching baritone except with a cylindrical bore: it’s a bell front bugle configuration and it’s old and crappy. It’s a dynasty brass instrument and it was used by the drum corps the blue devils in the early 200s or late 90s.
@Harry George New ones are definitely worth the buy. I love the tonal color of marching trombones as opposed to those found with marching baritones and marching euphs.
@@michaelgibson5596 I have both a marching baritone and a marching trombone in my basement. I MUCH prefer the sound of the baritone. The marching trombone seems super stuffy (I’m guessing that’s due to the smaller bore) and has much less resonance than the marching baritone (which, to be honest, sounds terrible compared to my daughters concert euphonium).
"Marching trombone"? What the heck? A marching trombone is... a _trombone_ ... it never asked for a 'marching' version and marching bands worldwide get by just fine with the good old slideyboi.
The trombonium was meant to replace the trombone voice, not the baritone, in American marching bands. Far easier to quickly teach three valves than a slide. And more convenient to hold than a valve trombone. Any instrument that's not made for 'professional' players will have intonation problems - they can't afford to dick about getting the perfect design when they can only charge student/school prices.
For professional-quality playing, listen here: ua-cam.com/video/UNoP2ER06kU/v-deo.html
It´s just a marching bariton. Because of the lot off windings it wil never sound like a trombone.
That´s why a trumpet and a trombone are calles straight brass.
I'm not surprised you prefer the baritone horn, as it's much better developed compared to an instrument made by one company using the same design for 40 years before anyone else tried anything.
I think what killed these off more than anything is the rise in popularity of bell-front, bugle-style instruments for marching bands. Bands sounded bigger and louder and won more prizes when they could funnel all the sound straight at the judges.
But surely the Trombonium is a normal instrument, like the trumpet, the French horn, and the tuba, while the trombone is the strange and abnormal one!
I'm an American player, and had no clue that trombonists existed until watching this- (I play for a high school band)
The trombonium sounds small and stuffy. Much prefer the sound of the baritone.
I am a trombone player who eschews valve trombones because they play and sound stuffy to me too.
Well, to my ears, the trombonium sounds more like a trombone. But you're right - the sexhorn is more comical.
The trombonium does sound much more trombone like than does the baritone, which sounds very similar to the euphonium.
All the tech stuff aside, this dude can really play! Watched a lot of his videos and he always sounds good. What is your "Main" instrument?
But isn't the Trombonium really meant as a marching instrument and not a concert instrument? What does it sound like cranked up a bit? A Baritone or Euphonium is going to sound more glorious but much better for concert work than out on the field or in a parade. Very nice playing :) The Baritone did sound much better in your example. Which would be better for Washing Post or Stars and Stripes? f
my school (which is rather old) has a few of these that ive gotten the chance to play. Our school uses them inter changebly for the euphonium players.
How does this compare to an alto horn, with smaller mouthpiece or French horn mouthpiece?
Take a listen to JJ Johnson play a trombonium on Moonlight in Vermont. He makes that thing sing.
I feel like a new person in my school's ms band plays that, but it's supposed to be a baritone
I am deeply distressed at thrilled by your efforts. Subscription earned. 👍
Sounds somewhere between a valve trombone and a trumpet...
So basically it’s a compact valve trombone with a movable bell
To my inexpert ear, the baritone sounds better, more resonant somehow.
Kind of wish I had a trombonium, it looks pretty cool. Thanks for showing us this!
"Bombonium" thing should be next😂
Cool👌
DUDE!!!! You look fanom! Congrats on the weight loss!
Thanks mates u sound so bad ,, on both. , haha just kiding you the best
Mans making it seem like no one's ever heard of a baritone 😭
What's the name of the song at 5:11? I heard that song on a toy.
Groovy, mellow yellow brass....I like both....
"Annoy the person of your choosing"? Hmmm go on :)
Ee-eh-f
The key of if? Sounds kind of tintative.
My band teacher has one of these i wondered what it was
That fixed spring thing is actually kind of common in my experience. I have a standard marching baritone with that configuration.
At least it was common for Conn professional trumpets in the thirties and forties. Vocabells had it, as well as 12B's, so I guess 22B's had it too, and that was Conn's common model at the time.
What was the first piece you played to demonstrate?
If I’m not mistaken, I believe it’s Silver Threads Among the Gold.
Edit: unless you’re talking about the very beginning of the video, then that I don’t know lol
5:41 *I N T E N S E T R O M B O N I U M P L A Y I N G !*
The baritone is a WHAT horn???!
Where can I find a trombonium
Nice Review, Trent!
It’s just a skinny baritone
So what would be the difference between the trombonium and a Bb Baritone? Just curious. I played Trombone and Baritone in Marching Band.
I guess I should have watched the whole thing first. LOL Thanks.
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I hear a definite pitch difference: the trombonium is definitely lower. Is the saxhorn calibrated perhaps at A445?
My fault for not tuning the instruments before recording :)
The Trombonium's crappy intonation is the fault of two things. Well, three if you count the fact that no one bothered to advertise either of them.
1) It needs a TINY mouthpiece. This is an old-fashioned instrument and it needs old-fashioned cup volume. The fact that it's just that tiny bit more conical than a slide Trombone makes all the difference in the world.
2) Yet another bastard proprietary shank type. I reamed my Trombonium for normal small shank because I have no reason to have a custom mouthpiece specifically for it, but it's something around 10.5mm @ 1:19. I have no intention of trying to purchase a matching period mouthpiece, so you can consider this measurement unconfirmed. It's the same proprietary taper as Conn Precision shank and the tip diameter is between 10.7mm and 10.3mm, so my estimate has to be close.
If you use a typical modern mouthpiece, and combine that with your mouthpiece hanging out half a mile, all of your high range will be flat because that's what happens when you have way too much cup volume and a gap of +6mm. With those issues addressed, the Trombonium is easily one of the best obscure instruments ever. The allegedly insufferable 5th partial is like 12-14 cents flat. Everything else is solid and slotting is incredible. Easily my favorite of the alternative Trombone things.
Odd - a small shank trombone mouthpiece fitted this instrument quite normally. Thanks for your comments.
I have the King altonium
First off, not a brass player, but I was always told the Bass Trumpet as made by Bach, is a valved trombone. It has the same geometry as a trombone.
Bass trumpets are more like higher quality marching baritones.
Sex horn? The key of "if"?
I might just play this
I preferred the trombonium. The tone was a bit more rounded. The baritone (which I'm familiar with as we had in our marching band here in the States back in the day) sounded a little drier to me, or as someone described below - wispy.
The HN White Co was a busy outfit. I have a 1933 BBb Sousaphone (silver with a gold inside bell plating) that I had resurrected a few years ago.
I have a 1932 Holton Collegiate Trumpet that has the same kind of valve springs. I got replacement springs for it, but they also stick into the bottom cap.
Baritones will always be a beautiful instrument, but I actually like the subtly less 'fluffy' sound of the bonium. No edge, no fluff, just tone in that timbre.
Although there is an odd 'character' or 'personality' to the sound. Maybe a distant hint of... I dunno, old-fashined stuffiness? Undeserved self-importance?
You look a lot younger the normal
It’s in the key of eaf
I think I actually liked the sound of the trombonium better, but I'm a harmonica player (reformed grade school baritone tuba player).
So is a flugabone really a marching trombonium?
No. The flugabone and other "marching trombone" instruments of similar design are actually derived from a Dynasty branded contraption of the very early 1980s called a Cellophone.