Why Tube Amps Will Never Die Dipped In Tone Episode 16
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- Опубліковано 24 лис 2024
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On Episode 16 of the Dipped in Tone podcast Rhett and Zach discuss the new Novo models and the future of tube amps. Will tube amps be here for every or will digital technology catch up or surpass tube?
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Classic cars, much like tube amps, are a visceral experience. The feel of the power is exciting, untamed, and unrefined. There are no antilock brakes or traction control or collision avoidance radar to keep you safe. I have an old Datsun 240Z and it basically feels like driving a big go kart. There's just something about old cars and loud amps that make us smile.
Yes, there's a clip with Lewis Hamilton driving Senna's old F1 car and the thing that he commented on was how "directly connected" to the tarmac through the controls it felt compared to a modern F1 car.
You know who you should talk to about the Plexi sound? Johann Segeborn. That dude probably knows more about plexis and Plexi tone than anybody alive. He’s a Marshall fanatic. His UA-cam channel is 10/10.
Johann is special. I’d love to see him get more recognition.
This is the way.
10/10 !!!!
I went full helix and digital for about a year and a half. It was so convenient and sounded great, but I always felt like I was missing something. I’m back to pedals and tube amps and I’m so glad I’m back.
Even with a prop amp on stage to have the aesthetic advantage over a helix youre still missing the thrill of stage volume. I was at a show like that, close to the stage, and could hear the sound coming out of the PA on the sides of the stage and the monitors pointing at the performers but it felt like i was in the black hole of volume from where i was standing. Made me feel like i needed to back up to feel the excitement of the music- and who wants that at a live show?
Greetings from Ealing, UK, home of the Marshall Amp. Loving the show. Listening to you guys is like listening to two guys talking guitars and related stuff in the pub.
The classic car comparison is spot on. I currently own a modern family car that is fast, safe and really easy to drive but totally sterile. I've also owned some classic 70s sports cars which were technically inferior in every way but used to get me excited every time I walked past them. It's exactly the same with my tube amps vs plugins etc
Cool! Thank you Rhett for talking about aesthetics in guitar design. I feel very strongly about that, actually since before the advent of headless guitars. Seems that's part of why the most popular shapes are ones that were designed in the 50s and 60s. You're actually a lot more open minded than I am as the last modern design I can appreciate is the reverse Firebird. Really love yours by the way.
I agree with Mick Taylor's (TPS) saying that 3 reasons to buy a guitar.
1 The way it looks.
2 The way it looks.
3 You get it...ha ha!
Oh ...now you talked me into wanting a Deluxe Tonemaster!
As a bassist who went back to full tube amps years ago after trying hybrids I'll never stray again. The worst thing the industry ever did was convince bassists that their tone, and dynamics didn't matter enough to invest in a full tube amp. I see these guys show up to shows with these tiny little class D amps talking about "it's not worth it to wrestle with a tube head", but then they pull out a giant pedal board to give them "effects" that you can get from your fingers and a tube head by knowing how to run your volume and tone on the fly at the instrument. There's nothing like bass through a full tube head. You not only hear it. You feel it. The depth to the sound can be imitated, but it can't be duplicated. Every show people come up and talk to me about my sound. Wondering about my "secret". It's just a P bass with flats straight into a tube head.
This is one of my favorite podcasts. Good stuff.
Hey guys, AMT from Russia is already doing the Warmstone which is a solid state 12AX7 drop in replacement.
And REVV is killing it on their amps with the integrated IR/direct out solution from Two Notes.
I agree with Zach 100%. Pure Nickel, round core for the best tone and feel. I've been playing DR Pure Blues for years, but would love to check out those Thro-baks.
I started stocking up on NOS tubes back in the early ‘90s. At the time there was a lotta concern that-with US supplies of new-ish tubes drying up and uncertainty about how things were gonna go down in former Soviet countries-we’d soon run out of quality stuff. Haven’t had to deal with anything going bad except for a handful of GE 12AY7s that partially lost vacuum…they still worked, sorta, but sounded gawdawful. Along with this it has turned out that certain current or near-current Russian & Chinese tubes sound really good even when compared to the oldies. So I’ve got all I need to last the rest of my life.
Partial vacuum? Wow. I wonder if a fuzz pedal could be built around those? You can hype up the n.o.s. factory defect angle and double the price. 🤔
Totally agreed that the Kemper is dated. .....but I also don't have any interest to move away from it. It still sounds really good to me. I'm sure one day I will but I'm not in a hurry.
I still use my Avid Eleven Rack for the same reason - it does what I want and sounds great.
Yeah, and despite the dated Kemper display, that unit is still seen everywhere. I think a new unit aiming to replace the kemper has to sound better first.
Well, the biggest sign that tubes are probably going away is Fender making a Transistor iteration of one of their best selling amps just to test the waters. With that, I think Fender, as one of the biggest amp manufacturers in the world has succeeded and I'm pretty sure they're totally comfortabe to go tubeless when the time comes...
I think it's proof that digital is finally being excepted by the youngest generation of guitar players on UA-cam pushing all the digital pedals and boards and All that !
It's like fender See's the digital stuff being excepted rather than tubes being obselete, because tubes still have it and digital copy is nice too !
Some great points in this video. I think digital will become more and more prevalent as the years go on, just as it has in motion picture and television. This isn’t a perfect analogy, but, for example, 35mm film (and the smaller, more specialized gauges) are available to filmmakers who are seeking a specific look, but the vast majority of content is now produced with digital cinema cameras since the technology has achieved a “superior quality”. Imagine shooting a UA-cam video on film to achieve your look 😉. Don’t get me wrong, I own three small tube amps that I hope to keep forever. I just think that there will always be people who maintain/play tube amplifiers, but, that some day in the future (I can’t answer how many years), the Digital emulation will be arguably indistinguishable from the tube sound. Thanks for another awesome episode, guys!
Rondo music shoutout! I thought I was like the only one who knew about or buys there!I love their amazingly cheap guitars for the body and modding it out and upgrading hahah
And their strats are solid basswood!
Those guitars are good stock for what you pay for them. Love rondos.
Purchasing a tube head is making a commitment to certain limitations. You have to be intentional in understanding the sound you are pursuing (ex. What is the gain structure, does it require a lot of headroom, do I want preamp gain or poweramp gain, what EQ structure/options).
Beside that I think application is important. A 100 watt Plexi stack isn't going to be practical for home use/small venues without support from devices like OxBox/Captor/Torpedo to attenuate or eliminate the cabinet. The biggest drawback is that reducing the signal down to line level that you lose the viseral aspects of tube amps.
I got my first experience of a stack when I got my first one as a teen. From having a stack I remember what it was like to crank the amp and the experiential aspects of this. A lot of the band's I saw also had cranked stacks which helped reinforce that experience. I just wonder for the next generation of they will get the same experiences with digital/popular music.
Thoughts!?
i have a line 6 helix i've had it since Oct 2015 and i still can't gig with out a tube amp.
What a beautiful analogy Rhett we hear with our eyes
Personally, looking forward to more people getting access to great second hand modellers as time goes on
All my valve amps are gathering dust in the corner my boss katana does everything I need in the no gig covid nightmare
Guys, its all about insulation. for me tube amp + speakers will inspire me, it creates an environment that inspires me. I have AxeFX 3 which is awesome and practical and I have complains. I could not replicate the Dumble style amp I have and it's the only exception. I love recording the old way with mids and all that. I enjoy it. in live, I'll pick the axe.
The thing is.... I have a 71/72 Fender Twin that has never needed a recap and has been running the same power tubes since 1990. Apart from burning through a couple of Mullards in V1 over the last twenty years, I have never had to upgrade or fix it. It does what it does. What it does was great in 1989 when I bought it, great in the 90s when I gigged it, and great doing studio work over the last twenty years. If your Line 6, Kemper or Ax are still working in 2045, we’ll consider their longevity and quality proven. Any piece of gear can be judged by proven reliability for what it does, and how long it does it without work. I suspect tubes will still be around for a while yet, in fact, as long as electric guitar remains valid.
I think that's awesome, and I bet your Twin sounds out of this world. But nobody--absolutely nobody--is looking to modelers and profilers for longevity. Nobody. They look to them for versatile, practical solutions now and in the immediate future.
Egh after owning a tube Orange amp for years I'm not sad about moving to my HELIX. That thing is solid
With the current quality of modeling, tube amps are joining the hall of obsolescence with buggy whips, cat gut strings and lutes. While it's still possible for a skilled listener to pick them out under perfect listening circumstances (soloed, studio environment), once you get drums and bass going or put them in a real world audio environment, there's no practical difference.
100% agree regarding the esthetics. My drummer played an electronic drum live for a while, and it just didn’t look right. A venue refused that he played with it because it looked weird.
My effort to spread the word about the podcast... wrote "Dip Your Rig" on the men's room wall. Hope that helps
I used to gig with a reissue JCM800/greenback 4x12 and a power brake (Marshall attenuator) with the master on 6. If the attenuated was set at 2 notches down from max it was the best and most versatile rock sounds ever, and just about manageable volume wise. Since then I have down sized. But in my opinion, nothing really currently competes with the feel. Just subscribed, thanks.
I have a plush 2x15 in a math/shoe gaze band that’s life changing every time!
I really like all your content! Very informative and eye opener!
I know the lack of an intro song has become a running joke, but you guys should consider a listener submission contest. That would (maybe) reduce your workload, and it could be really fun.
Great episode, today. I’ve got a Boss Waza Tube Amp Expander, and it’s really opened up the world of tube amps for me. I have a 65 DRRI (Rhett’s favorite), and I just picked up the Marshall Studio Vintage 20 with the matching 2 x 12. Cranked a little through the TAE expander, it sounds glorious. I turn three switches and dial the two channel on the amp to taste, and it’s so fun. Unfortunately I’ve found that booting up a digital device (TAE notwithstanding) is a nuisance barrier to playing for me. I just want to flick and couple switches, instantly get great tone, and go.
All that said, my bank account would far prefer if I had just gotten a Helix or something similar from the outset.
Can't wait for Ox v2. I used it the V1 was amazing but then the Boss Waza Amp Extender came out and I sold my Ox for that one. I appreciate IR but the Ox is much better for me. for now, I am happy with the Boss.
What a great episode!
Great show fellas! I appreciate y'all covering this subject. From what I am getting from this, it sounds like digital (or even analog or both) is now or will be the standardized method to practice, record and perform (just for the record I have a big board of amazing pedals, many analog, into a Strymon Iridium). However, I recently saw a vid of the Friedman Twin Sister into tla UA Ox and those tones are absolutely amazing! I'm not sure if a stand alone digital unit can nail those tones but maybe somewhat close? Anyway, great show
Handwired tube amps have a unique analog cool factor that just can't be replicated. But hey digital is getting better and better
Same reason as any physical music media vs digital: Even if it sounds completely identical, the interaction with a real thing, with a "presence" in the room, with knobs and switches, with marks, scrapes, scratches and a history (and a smell!) has a different connection to our brains than a digital version experienced and interacted with via an interface.
It might be different for people that grow up with predominantly digital interactions though. Perhaps their brains would have less expectation of that kind of physical connection?...I seem to read a lot about teens "discovering" the joy of vinyl or print film, though, which maybe suggests not?...
So you're telling me to start a tube factory in the mountainous regions of Sweden?
Yes.
Yes
Rhett, you need to start going the Rush route and replace the amps with a washer and dryer. Washers and dryers are cooler than amps anyway.
I'm so glad to hear that there is a Plexi Sound video in the making. Also, what makes a $2K guitar different from an upgraded guitar with the same hardware, pickups, wiring, and a neck with similar craftsmanship?
I wish tube amps would make these things standards; EQ and Master for every channel, + midi control, noise gate, and boost.
😆😂
Regarding the tube talk, have you tried the bluguitar amp1 stuff? Interesting adaptation of solid state and tube technology. I also think they sound incredible personally.
Kinda bummed that Novo killed the Serus TCS. That was my dream guitar (Gibson scale, with bindings and inlays, can't make up mind if it would be with binding or German carve).
You need to Rick Roll us with the intro track someday
We're just talkin' about the future
Forget about the past
It'll always be with us
It's never gonna die, never gonna die
Rock 'n' roll ain't noise pollution
Rock 'n' roll ain't gonna die
Rock 'n' roll ain't no pollution
Rock 'n' roll is just rock 'n' roll
Zach's commitment to sarcasm is almost as strong as mine..
Sarcasm is the way.
JJ Valves are produced in Slovakia ;)
The handwired reissues seem to sell for similiar money as 70s ones, IME. Sometimes more. Also speaking of Rondo Music, is Agile for sale? Check the bottom of the page.. Also Jet City made the analog/solid state tubes you are talking about called RetroValves. To Zachs point about 'does this matter' I think a big part where tubes matter is in the power section like you said. Speakers interact with tube power much differently than solid state power in terms of how it couples with the output impedance or something. It is much more dynamic, interactive, and retains touch sensitivity. Also the hard clipping aspect of solid state power..
Touch sensitivity is usually software limited by engineers trying to match what they have in their head. My fender Mustang 3 has a setting called "touch wah" that is so sensitive to pick attack that I can play a wah-wah solo without a pedal by changing pick attack. Mine is an 8 yr old entry level modeler.
@@eddieellis677 yeah but fender did really really good with their mustang V2 stereo head unit and the digital modeling sounds really good in the fender mustang !
Tube amps may be cool and all but,
Kids nowadays will have less and less exposure to tube amps (because of the price wall) and the "tube sound" will eventually feel foreign to them. The next generation may find the warmth and breakup of tube amps as faults, while the clean sound of solid state and digital amps (amp sims, profilers) as a better solution.
Unless someone makes tubes accessible, people would go for DSPs for recording and live gigs
Thoughts on modeling amps adding fake “tubes” that glow in the back for even more aesthetic value? Something that doesn’t impact the sound but looks killer
Because they sound great
Ever since modelers have started to be taken seriously, I've thought that Fender and Marshall should make FRFR cabs that look like classic combos from their past. Just think about being able to run a tweed patch on a helix and running it into what looks to be a tweed Deluxe. The Tone Master is definitely a step in the right direction, especially now that you can update them.
Also, one of the things I love about the "What Is The _____ Sound?" series is that it gives me a reference to go by when dialing in an amp on my Helix. Especially if I don't have direct experience with the amp IRL.
I don't think that cheap tube amps are going away at all. Just look at the popularity of the Monoprice Stage Right 15/Harley Benton Tube 15 amp. They cost half or less of what other tube amps cost, and they are nearly always out of stock. I recently bought one and it's awesome.
Man i just bought a 5f2 champ replica! 😄
Running blues jr and katana in a wet dry rig, using the katana for my wet signal. Man it sounds incredible.
I would love to hear your thoughts on low watt tube amps for home use. Thinking the BlackStar HTR MK II series or the smaller Marshall and Orange amps.
Tube amps are also getting cheaper and you have to look at the popularity of the smaller tube amps
It would be great if you guys sync your volume levels if its not a big hassle. Rhett comes through much clearer IMO. Perhaps its not so much a volume issue but perhaps enunciation without bobbing away from the mic.
theres a lot of empty speaker cabinets on stage
I have a helix, in no way does it compare, considering selling, want a deluxe reverb!
I'm an architect in Hawaii and decided that it would be prudent to share the link to the podcast with the local building officials so if you get a big influx of building inspectors im taking credit...
What i dont understand, and this is really the point, why is "dinosaur" tech so expensive, i looked in my tube amp, nothing in there that should cost 1600 can we please find a way fo produce these things efficiently and effective so that we wont need to compromise sound and feel to get what we want. Find a way to manufacture these things easier and just run em!
Guys I'm really starting to get nervous you may never actually record an intro
How am I just finding out about this???
I just traded my AD30 (GOAT amp for me) for a Blonde Deluxe Tonemaster. Yep.
I have a Tonemaster Deluxe reverb amp under my Christmas tree . It's waiting for me! I hope you enjoy yours!
I used this amp. It sounds great. Warm rich tube tone. I'm happy!!!!
Tube amps operate on the same principles as the Universe. They are literally, the stuff heaven is made of.
That would be great if there were time stamps.
I have played acoustic guitar for Over 30 years, until last year. Turned 50, bought a Tele and a hx stomp. I really enjoyed it but 6 months later I now have a tube amp and a few pedals. My ears hear a great deal of difference with the tube amp rig. The band I play in practices silently, in ears, desk, electric drums, etc. So, I had to continue to use the hx stomp for band practice. I disliked the sounds and feels so much I decided to try the Boss TAE, allows me to do everything the stomp did but it sounds better, no doubt. Yep, expensive, but, that’s not the debate. There will be tubes. The price of tubes may stabilise , if new players buy modellers over tube amps the demand may actually drop for tubes..but just in case.. can you get me Setzer’s email.
For now, I’m doing the same thing. I have a Helix and an HX-Stomp. Love them, but I’ve also got my Mesa Boogie Mark V thru a TAE and it just feels more real, even though it’s going to the PA and to In-Ears.
Spot on about the interface on the Helix/Helix Native... just NOT intuitive at all. And I have given up even trying to use the Iphone/android/Ipad app with my Spider Amp - complete waste of time.
I hated my Marshall (a little Jubilee with a Sidewinder speaker). I like my 50 watt Katana much much better (yes, I'm serious). I get ear pain at higher volume, so I don't want that ever again. My ears' frequency responses are compromised, so I doubt even a great tube amp would mean much to me anymore, I just won't hear the diff.
The Carr Skylark is a tube amp with built in attenuator so it really cranks at low volumes. You won't look back.
And now Rhett got a Vox 1964
I think tube amps will go on for a while, but there is a certain amount of technical skill involved in building tube amps and that is disappearing. At a certain point, there will not be enough people alive to keep the technology going. And the quality of non-tube amps keeps getting better. At this point - most people can't hear the difference, so I disagree with the "will never die" part of the issue.
Want a hand wired point to point vintage USA made amp?
Go buy a Hammond AO-35, AO43, AO-44 have it modified by a tech.
They are legit.
Something I would like you to cover is the difference between recording and performing live... shouldn't it sound different? isn't that why you like some bands better live then recorded ?????
I don't know, bro. MY tube amp dies all the time.
I have 10 thousand profiles on my Kemper there is no way I am gong to be using the front controls on the Kemper. I do not use the interface on the Kemper I don't think anyone does except for small on the fly changes. I only really ever use the UI which is what I want to use anyway. The only thing I care about is how close it sounds to the real thing and that is it. Kemper is the only modeler that has a powered amp and they just released the Kemper kone which makes it sound way better than any other modeler. As long as I have profiles that sound just like the real thing, a kemper kone and a decent UI that's all I care about and that's never has to change for me.
Just bought a JC-40. Ha
Rick Glassman clicks?
All anyone needs is a strobe tuner into a Flint into an Iridium, into a Bose L1 Pro. If anyone is... me.
Tone Master Twin Reverb? You mean an amp that sounds/Look like a Twin Reverb & can be dialed back to work in any environment? Who would want that? This is the way of the future. Tube amps will be at good studios
Tube amps will almost certainly decrease in use and popularity as the availability of tubes becomes the bottleneck. Does anyone still really use 100W Marshals an stacks anymore as stage volumes have gone waaaay down and a lot of people run straight into PA’s with modelers?
It's not a matter of "do people still use amp stacks" because yes they do and always will but about what works for you !?
@@AuntAlnico4 The number of touring artists using that type of rig onstage is plummeting because stage volume needs have changed. Nostalgia is not going to keep that fire burning for 200lbs of mic'd stacked amplifiers that can be seamlessly replaced by a 2lb box and a DI to the PA system. Cost is also a consideration as the transport and maintenance of traditional large amp setups is quite significant, particularly in the context of the economics of performing musicians.
Someone put Axe fx in a Marshall shell
When there is no person left to appreciate a thing, what happens? I believe the sound of the American electric guitar through a pure analog vacuum-tube amplifier, driving a real paper cone loudspeaker designed for the purpose, can not even remotely be duplicated. I'm talking a live experience at a performance level of volume, playing music made for such a delivery system. That's my opinion. Rhett, you're an old soul.
I can’t bring myself to spend thousands of dollars on an extremely loud amp, and then another thousand dollars (Ox, Boss Waza, etc.) in order to make it quiet…
@@vandal_dk I totally agree, they sound amazing. It’s the counterintuitive “buy loud” then “tame the beast” of it all. I feel like it is similar to turning the air-conditioning on high in your house, only to have to wear a coat or cover up with a blanket…
I played the only lefty novo I've seen. It was terrible. I'm guessing the righty ones are excellent
What was wrong with it?
@@DippedInTone really flat guitar to play, nothing special about it at all, it almost seemed like whoever put it together didn't know what they we doing. I'm not calling out novo just this one guitar
As long as their are hipsters, there will always be tubes.
Mark Knopfler did ok on his last tour without amps ;)
Novo solus is just my dream guitar and now you mentioned solus signature built by the man himself what do I have to do man now you have confused me to hell lol I have to get more jobs and lie more to my wife I guess
Teslas look like crap. Love, from a car industry veteran.
Sweet Sixteen
55:52 In one sentence this is what is wrong with the youtube guitar world - 'We hear with our eyes man'.
Try hearing with your ears.
Music is not like classic cars. Music is art. Classic cars are just things for a certain type of man to sod around with on a weekend.
I think this phrase extends well beyond the UA-cam guitar world. Players will time and time again choose a brand because of what the brand is and not because it's necessarily the guitar that sounds best to them. Some people want to look down and see Fender or Gibson on the headstock, even if a G&L or Heritage actually sounds better.
I know for me is a player, Zach here, I try to play the guitars that I like the most regardless of the name on the headstock or the finish of the guitar. But I think across the board guitar players the world over want to see the guitar they envision themselves playing just as much as they want to have the tone that they hear in their head.
@@DippedInTone Yep, I think you're absolutely right, for what it's worth, but I think it leads to bad music, or more precisely, regurgitated music, music that sounds - and appears - like whoever used said gear or said guitar. Ironically, if those people were starting out today, I don't think those people would think like that. They'd be doing their own thing. I believe that of the people I admire.
The sonic possibilities of the guitar are endless, but the 'classic gear' thing stifles that range.
Of course, people do buy a Gibson because they want to make a noise like [insert nostalgia-embalmed adolescent bedroom hero here], and I suppose that's an acceptable way to spend your weekends. But I worry that the whole business becomes about sales, marketing, posturing, aspirational aquisition, conservatism, exhibitionist conformism etc. instead of about the sweaty business of making your own sound. Call me idealist.
Vox AC30 "ToneMaster" that weighs 15lbs? SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
Tube amps will go away eventually because people evolve with technology. In 20/30/40 years, "kids these days" (meaning those days) won't know tube amps that are tubes. They'll know digital recreations. That's what they'll like and gravitate towards. Think about this - few people don't seek out tube radios, but there's a thriving market for 'vintage' looking radios. Tons of people on Etsy or whatever who are taking shells of an old radio and gutting them to drop in a bluetooth system or whatever. That's the type of thing that'll happen to the guitar world eventually.
The valve has already been superseded. ....very soon all tube amps will be in museums....and valves will no longer be made...it's called development and technology moving forwards...
Nope. There’s room for both.
Once the amplifier industry is the only customer for tubes/valves, it's over. The industry isn't big enough to keep valve/tube production going.
The video is two years old. The Chinese facility has closed down, since then. The Russian factory will probably go the same way, because of the current economic sanctions against Russia.
Invite Chris Buck to make the intro! 🙂
The day drummers go from acoustic kits to electric kits is the day I'll consider ditching the tube amps :P Consider being the key word ;)
Emblems of Thanatos stop your watts working. Fact.
Every Tesla looks like a Camry that was force-fed like a foie gras goose. They're the most consistently ugly and uninspired looking cars out there.
*except for the one that was just a Lotus chassis and body paneling
agreed
I dk id put Hyundai above the tesla in ugly, Nissans been looking weird lately, Mitsubishi too dk whats going on
@@viktortulbya2107 Hyundai's baskin shark grill is weird for sure. Mitsubishis definitely got flogged by by an ugly stick. I kind of forgot about them because I don't see many.
I have zero interest in digital modeling amp stuff. Its throwaway tech that is obsolete almost as soon as you buy it. It LOOKS cheap and cheesy, its to much menu diving, and information overload.
I'll stick with my vintage tube amps and pedals and guitars. I have enough tubes stocked up to keep my amps running for decades to come.
If tube manufacturing is harmful to the people that make them, and the environment, why are we even using tubes anymore? Your guitar sound IS NOT as important as people's health/lives!
Same reason 'we' still tolerate buying clothes, electronics, guitar gear etc that is made in Chinese sweatshops. Because it's cheaper and 'we' don't really care about their health. The tube factories in Eastern Europe are owned by Americans, IIRC. The factories are in Eastern Europe, because it's cheaper, and those countries not being in the EU, aren't subject to the same strict regulations. If those factories were in 'the free world', you'd be paying 5-10 times the price for your tubes.
Ok, the intro joke is now old