BAD ADVICE ~ unhelpful rules for books
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- Опубліковано 1 вер 2023
- BAD ADVICE ~ unhelpful rules on writing
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#writingadvice #badwritingadvice #writingdonts - Розваги
It's funny because in french, it's the opposite : the word "said" is considered as what we call a "weak verb" (= a verb with not a strong meaning). So teachers told us that when you write, you have to substitute "said" by an other verb more descriptive (like answer, yell, wisper, argue etc) absolutely everytime time you can.
(Sorry for the english mystakes but, well, I'm French...)
Exactly i’m french and that’s so true ! I can’t remember how many times a teacher told us that at school ,your comment evokes so many memories !
I was told that same thing in Ireland!
We also learned that in Germany
Same in Norway. And it makes *so much sense!* I'm autistic and it drives me bonkers when an author goes "said, said, said" and I have to somehow deduce from context what their tone of voice and facial expressions are supposed to be like...
The problem is overcorrection, in English, I think-at first, people found using "said" all the time to be too repetitive or dull, but then with everybody replacing 'said' with just about any random word they could think of except for 'said'[ without much thought or intention behind which words writers were using instead and when/where/how/why] and then it got to a point where often times there was little to no impact or purpose behind a writer using something other than 'said' except to be overwhelmingly varied completely unnecessarily to the point so it almost just became too cluttered or too busy and it could almost take the reader out of their immersion in the story a little bit sometimes ... and we ended up with a lot of things like that infamous bit in one of the Harry Potter books where some character "ejaculated" their dialogue instead of exclaiming or blurting it out or just plain saying it. Lolll
(It's a piece of advice that has actually changed over the years, altering as current writing mindsets and trends have changed.)
Basically, there was a certain point in time when people seemed to overcorrect into utilizing 'said' almost too little(even at times when 'said' was completely appropriate or the most apt word choice), so now people are overcorrecting again in the reverse and almost leaning on 'said' too much instead.
The solution is, I think, neither to never use 'said' NOR to never use any word other than 'said'-but rather, the solution is to really dig into whether or not there is an actual reason to use something other than 'said' and why or what exactly that reason is, so that if you are using another word other than just 'said' you are doing so as much as possible with concrete intention and for some actual purpose that serves the story or character or your particular style of writing or such. 😊
But maybe that's just me!😁😁🤷♀️🤷 🙂
“All of books are too many words” - I lost it 😂😂 I genuinely love hearing writing advice from different writers, but not when it’s absolute or prescriptive. It should come with some context and allow room for differences among writers and readers. This list really missed some nuance 😅
I love Prologues, they make me decide if I want to actually continue the book or not
I only found out last year that some people skip prologues! I was shocked
@@bekichan91 it really is weird that some people don’t like them lol
@@bekichan91 I hate it when the prologues are the present and then chapter 1 jumps back in time
I think some people assume that, if it's not the first chapter, then it must somehow be completely inessential. (This may come from the arbitrary "Once upon a time, in this particular land/town[/etc.]..." type openers, which used to be so common in fiction but that people have in more recent years begun to drift away from nowadays.)
But the other thing is when prologues follow completely different characters in a completely different period of time and the reader gets attached to those characters and those events or that story and 'feel' or 'tone' or such only to get ripped away from it to follow completely other characters with a completely different story or 'feel' instead which they might not end up liking as much. It's kind of like the back cover blurb or whatever setting up one expectation for the story, but then the actual book itself delivering something completely different. Especially if what was revealed in that prologue is never revisited at all nor sufficiently tied in with much significance to the actual story throughout the rest of the book.
@@bekichan91 The fact that a sizable reader base skips prologues (not preludes: preludes are very different and every time someone talks about "oh, but it can be done in an interesting way," they inevitably wind up with a prelude as their example) is a very good reason not to have them. If the information is needed to understand the story (it never is, but let's pretend), then put it in the story.
Hi Elliot, I've been a follower and fan of your channel for a while now, but been too shy to comment so far. I've come out of the woodworks to say thank you for such great content, and also thank you so much for drawing attention to the fact that different countries and cultures have different storytelling conventions.
I should begin with some disclaimers: a) I am by no means an expert on storytelling nor am I a writer, b) I am not saying that one culture's techniques are better than the another's, and c) of course there are always exceptions.
I am Chinese but was born and raised in the UK, so I grew up consuming both Western and East Asian media (mostly reading Chinese novels and watching C-dramas, but also binging the occasional K- and J-dramas). There are some very clear differences in storytelling techniques, so when I come across writing advice that reads something like 'doing XYZ is terrible' and I see these XYZ techniques used as standard and very successfully in Chinese novels, etc, I can't help but be a bit protective lol.
I can understand why these articles and videos (the ones I come across anyway) have this sort of advice; they seem to be produced by authors, publishers, etc working mainly in the US and UK markets and are targeted towards writers aiming to enter the Western market (I guess mainly US and UK?). Still, this sort of definitive advice makes me very sad for another reason. This advice seems to reflect the attitude within 'publishing'. That means there are so many excellent books from around the world that will never make it to the English-speaking market (I use this as an example because I'm UK-based) because they don't follow the 'rules'. Jin Yong's The Legend of the Condor Heroes, which is one of the most popular and well-regarded wuxia (martial arts heroes) novels, has been translated into English over the past few years and something hit me real hard when I read the following in the translator's note: 'Many have considered Jin Yong's world too foreign, too Chinese, for an English-speaking readership. Impossible to translate.‘
Anyway, as you might be able to tell I'm very passionate about this and I'm sorry for rambling on 🙈 Thank you for always making such informative and balanced content!
Gonna paraphrase one of my favorite books:
"You may flout the standards in way that shows you do so from knowledge. Not from ignorance."
"But I may flout the standards?"
"Of course. What do you think standards are for?"
A College of Magics
And that pretty much summarizes all my thoughts on rules in art!
I like what you said about visualizing. I can't visualize very well but I actually like a detailed description because, as you said, it helps me "know", even if I can't really imagine the character/setting in my head. I also often look up fanart of the characters to have a better idea of what they look like.
The main thing that draws me out of a story is when a phrase becomes noticeable. "Thought cage" from John Gwynne for example. Also, I love prologues. They almost always work for me... epilogues I am tired of. Writing tips are wierd because everyone is looking for something different in their books though. 🤷♀️
Oh my god thought cage was driving me nuts. Along with several other repeating things.
Interesting. I'm the opposite: I often become annoyed with prologues (not always though, some I really do enjoy, like the Stormlight example in the video), whereas I rarely dislike the epilogue if there is one. It really just reinforces your last statement and how having concrete rules for art forms is just ridiculous 🤷🏻♀️
Oh my god you just triggered me by making me read those words again 😂
There was a book I read years ago that kept repeating "all but" and I wanted to throw it by the end
Are you, by chance, referring to 'crutch words/phrases' ? 🤔🫣😅🤷🤭
Theere is so many rules to writing, it is hard to keep up. Like recently, there has been a thing where characters are not allowed to eat, slouch, breathe, sigh, laugh, sleep, do activities and your not supposed to be using prefexes and subtexts, your not supposed to make them alive, or relatable. Your not supposed to use conjuctions. I must say, it does tear me a part quite a bit.
If someone's going to skip a paragraph because it has "too many words", then why would they be reading a book in the first place? This list 😆
Personally, I do this when I feel like the paragraph(s) is filler and could've been edited out. Also when I don't like the POV if it's a multiple POV book. I usually just skip them altogether but sometimes I skim through them if there are plot-relevant details I need to understand the other POVS. But, I do agree that the rule was really stupid, you can't really predict what the readers will/won't skip over and your work can suffer from it.
I'll skim in some books but that is usually because I've already found that the author tends to rehash, rehash, and rehash again and well, I get tired of reading the same argument or description for the nth time, as they don't add or grow from it so it becomes pedestrian and unnecessary in my mind.
One thing I've learned recently and wish that I've tried out when I first started writing is to test out the writing advice/rules and see if it works. Sometimes it gets discouraging to try to stay true to every rule it just add to much pressure and it doesn't allow you to enjoy the act of writing.
In Slaughterhouse 5 Kurt Vonnegut wrote a prologue telling the reader what inspired the story but he called it chapter 1 so that people wouldn’t skip it
Sometimes I find dialogue ending in “said” can be really annoying when it’s too frequent. When there is line after line ending in “he said”, “she said”, it pulls me out of the story because of how much it irritates me. In these situations I think you need to use something else occasionally. Nothing weird, but sometimes there are simple alternatives that fit well. Using “asked” instead of “said” works better for me when a character makes a request.
The rule about "said" may be failing to to take into account something important. When it comes to reading, "said" does become sort of invisible after a while. But what about audiobooks? In that case, I think it can get really annoying if it is repeated constantly...
Yes!. I was listening to Elantris by Brandon Sanderson this year and ooomg I was so annoyed with 'said' being said after almost every sentence in some parts and it made the whole book almost miserable to get through.
When I read aloud to my kids, sometimes I just drop the "said" in back and forth conversations. I'm doing character voices, so they know who is speaking and it keeps the pace from slowing down.
I really appreciate a prologue when it reviews briefly what transpired in the previous book, as a part of a series. I can be frustrated if I can’t remember what happened in the previous book because too much time has passed for me. People who don’t need that refresh could skip it.
I Believe a similar exmample is the one with the adverbs. Terry prachet uses a Lot of them and is really cool and funny😅
Prologues are okay if your not info dumping and they are part of the story
Rule #6: Don’t take yourself so damn seriously.
-Benjamin Zander (he’s a conductor, idk if you’ve ever heard of him)
You're spot on on all counts. The main difference between you and them the advisers, might be... age. The're probably unaware of changes that self publishing and internet-based platforms have had on reading preferences. We write differently nowadays, and our readers love it
I studied creative writing in college and my professors were often less generous 😂 my poetry professor said you only get two exclamation marks in your entire life and I live by that lol
When it comes to pretty much every art form, trying to put static rules on what works and what doesn't is very silly! I think it's important to have guidelines when you're learning, but then as your skill develops, you start to learn when and how you can break rules for the best effect. This kind of list just comes off as condescending though... Like you can't be a good writer and also do these things. Bananas, lol.
The reason agents hate prologues is because a lot of people mess it up and it’s unnecessary. This does not mean there should be an absolute rule not to them. They just have to be done properly.
I can understand agents not wanting prologues because they can often be written in a different style or from a different pov than the rest of the book and so they want something more representative of the book as whole. But as a reader I love that kind of prologue, one from a different pov that gives you a hint to what the character is going to encounter in the future and builds intrigue. especially in fantasy where there may be a prophecy or something to be introduced
You know how they say "never judge a book by it's cover"?
How about "never judge an article by it's headline"?
Your rant on the first piece of 'advice' was so perfect...you could tell the article really annoyed you 😂
Idk why there's this recent fight against prologues. I LOVE them. Always have.
I’ve come to feel the same about online advice. I often find myself thinking “hmmmm is that really bad though?”
8:12 I agree. It depends. I love long descriptions but it needs to be well done.
Great video!!
Writing advice is so hard to give and take because reading (and writing) is SO subjective!
i will admit sometimes a huge chunk of text becomes daunting to read - especially if it’s loaded with descriptions, as i feel was the case with a lot of the required reading i had to do in high school… i forced myself through it but it was usually quite boring to me. but as you said, that’s totally case by case basis!
I enjoyed this video; Have been watching your channel for a while now and enjoy it. Both as a reader and writer I agree with your comments on writing advice. I think that one problem is that much of the advice lacks a contextual point of reference. There are rules of grammar that need to be followed and then there are opinions of good or bad content that individuals have about the craft of writing. I think often, as you mentioned in the video, that one well known writer says something about the craft of writing and then others jump onto the comment without the context of the original statement being considered. Sometimes it helps to know whether they are talking to new writers and trying to help them overcome repetitive and weak problems in writing or are they speaking to more established writers.
I also see that writing seems to go in trends. What might be good or bad advice to writers today may change a decade from now. The basics of writing will not change but opinion about what we like or enjoy in reading might.
one piece of advice i saw, i forget who it was from, but it was a famous author saying to write in first person present tense / avoid third person past tense. to this day i’m still quite miffed about it…
Great Video!
Creators parroting online advice without understanding why it's advice and not a set in stone rule is a pet peeve of mine.
Writing advice that is one or two sentences is often too dumb to be practical. "Show, don't tell," and "Said is dead," have done SO much damage.
I even once had a fellow writer tell me I *couldn't* write a book in dual first person narrative... this was well after *Gone Girl* became popular and I was dying of laughter.
But this article went the opposite direction... LOL. Great video!
P.S. Personally, I find picking a few key, specific details about descriptions helps. Blonde hair, sharp nose, and a single dimple when she smiles. Leave room to fill in the details but also allows simple visualization.
Halfway through the video (the exclamation point, uh, point) I had to go look at the article.
The guy that inspired the piece, Elmore Leonard. Apparently he was a crime, thriller, and western writer. Taking that into account, it tracks that he's like "get to the action, no one cares what Sally looks like, does she have a motive??" The article should probably make a note that what works for one author or genre won't necessarily work for another - maybe it did in the second part that I could not get to load.
There was this from Margaret Atwood which was on the money:
Hold the reader's attention. (This is likely to work better if you can hold your own.) But you don't know who the reader is, so it's like shooting fish with a slingshot in the dark. What fascinates A will bore the pants off B.
As for only two exclamation points per 100,000 words. The Great Gatsby is in the 50,000 ballpark, though I'm not about to go and count the !
Have you read On Writing by Stephen King? It's a memoir with writing advice. It's often highly recommended to writers because, well, it's King, but also he explains that it's good to look far and wide for advice, to try it out, to add what works to your toolbox, and let go of what doesn't. There is some heavy content stuff though, so check the trigger warnings.
Description of Characters. This one goes either way. Use it when it is needed, keep it short because people will image it in thier own way.
This is so silly, like no prologues? I enjoy a good prologue 😅
The "No Prologues" advice is the same as the advice I received for crime fiction writing "don't use multiple POVs." Guess what? Multiple POVs are all the rage right now. This is indeed stupid advice. Avoid a bad prologue. Some good books open with fantastic prologues. I agree that it's good to know the rules so that you know how to 'break' them. Also, some of these rules are temporary. Style preferences changes.
Instead of "said" I think it's quite useful to replace it with action. Said is boring. And if you read some of the most successful NYT best sellers...you will see they use a lot of "grumbled" "gasped" "sighed" "cried" etc instead of "said." Emotional writing sells! You may not like it, but it sells.
“Too many words.” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Apparently whomever wrote that does not read or write epic fantasy. At all.
I've seen both sides of the advice on said.
"Said is boring. Never use said" is probably worse advice, but neither is good advice.
I'm going to draw the comparison to part writing in music: none of the greats followed all those part writing rules. But when they broke the rules they didn't do it on accident.
You aren't supposed to write in voice crossing because it can be confusing for singers, but composers do it sometime so the melodies and harmonic lines make more sense, which in turn makes it easier for the singers.
A couple things here
1. It seems like The Guardian just repackaged and pared down Elmore Leonard's 2001 article in the NY Times about his rules for writing. Many of these had further explanation in his article. He was a fantastic crime writer, and these were the rules he followed
2. He specifically states in the preface to the article that these are his rules and he says to skip the rules if they would negatively impact the writer's voice.
3. The one thing I would take issue with Leonard here is that while the rules worked for him, they may not work for everyone. Art is subjective, and different people will have different views on how it should be implemented.
4. You may not think so, but there are a lot of readers who will skip whole pieces of text for one reason or another. Just because you don't doesn't mean it isn't something that happens often.
I feel like the first point you read should have been two separate points. The first one being what it said about cutting out the stuff people won’t read, AKA Trimming. But the part about long paragraphs, I think a better recommendation would have been to use paragraph spacing to your advantage and make how a book looks to read more palatable (so that a page isn’t one giant paragraph)
I call my prologues in my Waves of Darkness books "Once Upon a Tide" and usually tell a short adventure from a character's past to give context to their personality, and I tie it into the main story somewhere.
I love prologues. I’ve only seen maybe one or two that made me think that it could have been removed or integrated into the story in a better way. The funny thing is that whenever I meet someone who’s raving about how all prologues are bad and should be skipped and never be written because they’re all lazy and bad infodumps, I ask them to give examples. So far, nobody’s been able to provide any. I can point to many great prologues, but I haven’t seen any prologue haters give good examples of bad prologues.
Happy Labor Day weekend Elliot Sean and Luna xoxo 😘 🍃🍁🍁🍂🤎🤎🍂🍁📚📚📚📚❤️❤️📚🍃🍂👻👻🤎🤎📖📖🤎👻🍂🍃🍁🍁🍁🍃🍃🍂🍃📚🎃🎃📚❤️🎃❤️❤️📙📙❤️🍁🍃🍂👻🤎🤎🤎🧡🧡📖📖🧡🤎👻👻👻🍃🍁📚📚🎃🎃
what my professor said, now it was about filmmaking and not writing but I think it applies, is that generally follow those rules, and if you break it, do it deliberately because it is how you want to present your story. But generally those rules are there for a reason, but it is of course never a 'do not ever do this'.
On the Prologue discussion, I have been seeing trends on people not reading Prologues or Epilogues and I am just so baffled...they are just part of formal literary structure, there is nothing wrong with them? I put a poll on my Instagram and there were quite a few people who said they NEVER read Epilogues.....I'm just like HOW
Speaking personally im pretty rebellious so any "dont" i hear become I want to get away with this
In the novel I am writing, I had no prologue. But my coach advised me to add. I was first a little bit annoyed, because it was against the general advise of no prologue. However, I noticed that when I tell someone about my story I explained always some part of he world building first. That was revealed in the first draft along with the story, but with all the other things revealed that made it a bit complicated. So, I put that piece of world building in the prologue, it is about half a page. I am happy with that, because it directly puts the reader where it should be. Although, I think a prologue should have a different tone of the main story, otherwise it is not a prologue.
i love the thumbnail for this video 😂
Other advise I got is not to change perspective even if it is written in the third person limited, or do it regularly. If you have only a few changes of perspective it is maybe not the nicest thing, but if it is necessary for the story, I don't think it is a mortal sin.
I love that you're standing up to this, for writers but especially for reviewers. When a beta reader mentions one of these, I know they're working from a list of canned responses and won't have much of value to say.
My main piece of anti-advice is that "don't" can't tell a story. There is a lot of advice about what not to do and almost none of it is useful. Lists of "don'ts" won't result in a story, but in lifeless, "hypervigilant" prose.
My most hated is, of course, the first one about not putting in the parts readers skip. I don't skip anything ever. If I'm skipping parts of the story I'M NOT READING IT! I don't know which readers they're talking about, but I'm certainly not writing for them.
Oh dang. I really thought there was going to be some new "writing rules." Those have been floating around forever.
10:46 omg yes I almost DNFd The Siren's Call because the characters ended nearly every quote with a !
I only pushed through because it was counting for two different readathons. Will be unhauling even though the cover is beautiful. 😣
I agree with you on almost everything you said. This video, however, is a good example of why one should cut prologues. 😉
8:13 YES!!! I have Aphantasia, no mind's eye.
One should know the "rules" if one is going to break them, I guess? I think any hard rules about grammar also tend to bug me, as some of my favorite sequences in books are when the author makes creative use of such things for added immersion.
I am one of those people who has trouble visualizing so I appreciate detailed descriptions, but I also think that certain settings really lend themselves to description. If it's a novel about Regency or Victorian England, I expect descriptions of the women's clothing. The clothing signifies a lot about characters. If it's a historical novel about a place I'm unfamiliar with, I'd appreciate lots of descriptions of characters, clothing, buildings, everyday objects, etc.
Whenever I see a writing rule saying "never do [x]", I want to immediately break it.
Now I want to see what would happen if an author decides to break all the possible rules, haha
Thanks for this video sharing it Elliot xoxo 😘 📚🎃🤎🎃🍁👻🍁📚🍃🍃📖📙📙🧡📖❤️❤️🧡🎃🤎🎃👻👻🍁🎃🤎🤎🤎🎃🍁🍁🍃🍃🍂📖📖📙📙📙📖❤️❤️👻🍁📚🎃🤎🤎🤎🤎📚🍁🍁📚🎃🤎🤎🎃🍁🍁📚🍂🍃🍃📖❤️📙📙📖👻👻
Skipping Prologues is dumb AF lol
Could you imagine skipping the Prologue of The Secret History?! It's the whole set-up of tension for the book! One of the best ways I've seen it done.
This is in fact one of my favourite articles in the Internet, because 2015 it gave me the final push to start writing. I already had moved that decision forward for a decade, and I had no hobbies or joy in life. I have since finished four novels (well, the latest still has two or three chapters to go). I do not remember most of the advice, but they helped me to get started, and during the years, I have learnt much more than they express.
It is more about acquiring a skill and a way to think than following a list of rules, but a list of rules helps to begin somewhere. It is like in academic studies: it is not learning a list of things but learning a scholarly way to think and look at things, and in the beginning that sometimes includes learning certain lists of things. So, I think simple tips are a good idea, but one needs to go beyond them in the following years.
Btw, I did not begin to break one of Elmore Leonard's rules (no 'suddenlies') until this year. Some rules stick better than others.
When it comes to writing a story the only absolute rule I'm willing to follow is this: Do whatever is best for the story.
I'm with you on the idea that a writer should understand the rules they are breaking and do it with purpurse and intent. Personallyt, I think a lot of these rules are born out of good intent to point out frequent abuses of a certain technique, but then go too far by applying absolution rather than recommended moderation.
I personally think every writing rule boils down to everything in moderation.
I totally agree with you. The rules only exist to know why the rules exist. If you know the why and then you break the rules intentionally, you are making an artistic choice for your story. If it's on purpose, it's probably good. If it was an accident, then review the "rule" and decide if breaking it will actually help tell your story.
It sounds like the person who wrote this is a journalist who neither writes nor reads novels.
As a writer, who has an MFA in poetics, I have been in a LOT of classes and workshops, and worked with many esteemed writers.
When someone says, "Leave out the part readers skip," it almost always means something like the screenplay advice to come in late and leave early. It's about starting a scene where the meat is and ending it without fluff. We don't need to see a character walking to a door, introductions all around, talk about the weather before the important part of the scene. And we don't need cleaning up the dishes and goodbyes at the end. (Unless there's interesting, relevant stuff being shown during those bits.)
It doesn't mean skip long paragraphs. Paragraph length is a style choice. And yeah, modern style leans toward shorter paragraphs. But if you don't want long ones, you don't *skip* them. You break them up.
That makes zero sense as advice and less as an explanation of that bits of advice.
And not describing characters sounds like advice taken from screenwriting that doesn't usually apply to novels.
Prologues are very much genre dependent. In fantasy and magical realism, readers love them.
And the bit about said is only wrong because they made it an absolute.
The one statement I have always heard from published writers is, know the rules and follow them. This way when you break a rule you do it intentionaly and well.
You should do a video recommending fantasy books based on zodiac signs. That would be super fun😅❤
6:10 i do just that🤣🤣
Like if its a book I'm already not enjoying and i see a long paragraph I simply read the first and last line of it and skip the rest😬
I think writing advice is so hard to give. The advice could connect with someone, but not another. Even in college, I am a creative writing minor and sometimes I disagree with what my professors tell me since I already know what works for me. Sure, people can be professionals in their skills, but that doesn't mean their way is THE way or is going to work for you. These kinds of articles always turn me off as it is so subjective to each individual.
I like prologues that give you a taste of what is to come. I think some of these rules are just opinions that can be followed, or ignored.
I'm a writer, and I have a love-hate relationship with advice, since it often is on the basis someone can visualize in their head, and I can't do that anymore. (Also I just wanna thank you for mention Aphantasia. I didn't even realize I had it until like twoish years ago)
5:25
"Leave out the part readers want to skip"
Bad advice. Like what does this even mean? You shouldn't skip any of it, all of it should catch the readers attention. This being said I DID skip one part, but that's because the level of embarrassment was astronomical. It was well written, but what the character did was very much embarassing.
8:05
I don't have to worry about this one lol. I have some descriptions in the beginning few pages, and then everything gets dropped unless someone changes clothing, or some. I developed Aphantasia so I have to manage to not overwhelm my brain while I'm writing because it will try to visualize, and it makes me very tired. Usually I end up trying to find books that use clean, simple, common language to describe things. Again this also sounds like the person should just read Novellas, and short stories because those have word caps and that usually ends up keeping writers from being overly descriptive.
11:02
I don't think I've used exclamation points all that often. I usually use a period followed by an emotion, anger is usually never full blown screaming, so I don't need them. And if it is genuine screaming, it's mentioned in the following sentence. I find them to be distracting, and since I just see the text it gets incredibly jarring. The other half of this advice is awful, like radioactive, who wrote this article. I wanna file a complaint.
12:28
I have never been annoyed by a prologue. I also don't know if my books can even have prologues since they are all under 30k words so far. (No exclamation points for me) Although I might add a prologue to my sci-fantasy blend just to help move the plot a little, so thanks for the inspiration lol.
15:45
I broke this one. I use "stated" a lot, but I prefer it over said. I will change only when a change of emotion happens since I can't rely on my visual cues, as I can't have any, so I often use that as a way to help the reader visualize.
I write... The "only use said" rule is annoying because I keep reading reviews by non-writers reading books complaining the author was so boring and only used said over and over... but it was also drilled into my head in college to not use anything else. The explanation point rule I was also taught ... as in if you wrote the thing you were writing well enough, then it would be obvious something exciting was going, and therefore you don't need to use one. I think we were allowed three but I can't remember if that was per novel or for life. Twenty something years later I have a hard time breaking those two rules. The advice I hate is to write every day. It's not always possible, what if you're sick? In the hospital? Giving birth? Sorry I missed your funeral Aunt Mildred, I had to get my words in for the day first. I loved this video.
I agree with you very much, what the heck is that article 😂 it’s mostly opinion.. that is so ridiculous. I love descriptions/descriptive prose, like why would the writer of that article just tell people not to do that. I literally disagree with the entire article, I enjoy prologues, and words other than ‘said’
I'm surprised by how polarizing the "said" thing is - I thought "never use 'said'" was a relic of middle school English classes and the advice I've seen about how it has its uses was always more nuanced, I had no idea people went as far as "ONLY use 'said'"...
All that to say, I'm particularly offended by the slamming of "lied" in that piece of advice. I go FERAL for a good "lied" dialogue tag. Imo it's only a step above "said" in obtrusiveness - I usually skim right over it, do a double take, and then fully process the line. Excellent trick when well employed (just like any rule, or any exception) and while other dialogue tags rarely quite do it for me, I can imagine they all have their '"Of course," he lied' moment to shine.
What are the book over your right shoulder, with the purple color? I think it says ed.
Never write in your own blood.
13:00 Don't confuse a prolog with a prelude. A prolog is an infodump, flat out. It's more at home in a lecture hall than a novel. A prelude is an actual story that you don't want to label Chapter 1 for whatever reason. The former is useless. The later is fine.
Personally I dislike articles like this. Yes they are meant to "help" or "guide" whatever... but it can cause authors to write in the same style and could cause books to feel the same. I perosnally like when books and writing styles are different. It keeps reading fresh and makes authors writing styles unique to them.
Awesome vid. Thanks for sharing.
I'm with you that I can not stand absolutes. I think these lists of writing rules are speaking to the current trends. A few years ago, the rule was to avoid using 'said', but now they're saying don't avoid it. Then, there's the part about "too many words." I think this comes from the concept of needing to keep the audience constantly entertained. You have to get to the point and keep it exciting the entire time. Heaven forbid you slow down to give a little depth to your characters. Although, I do believe whoever made these rules was likely not quoted directly and was taken out of context by the article writer. I would really hope reviewers are not using these lists as a guide for how to review.
Don't like the prologue... skip it? I agree with adverbs to the point of overuse and 'said' as, usually, best standing alone... but there are times when they're needed. Which is why they exist. lol Blanket statements kill me.
Discussion videos are peak Elliott
With prologues, I actually understand where they're coming from from a writer's POV, but I would have clarified it to say to not add them if you don't know how to. I know plenty of online indie writers who happily throw in a 2k word battle scene as a prologue. I guess they are trying to establish the high stakes, but as a reader, I started to hate them because the prologues would be all intense and then they switch gears in chapter one to introduce their generic strong female character in a fantasy series. It gives major whiplash
I really don’t get the hate for prologues? Like it’s just the start of a book, I don’t get it. Some people even skip them and I don’t get that even more! Just never been an issue for me
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Cormac McCarthy definitely breaks a few rules in The Road.
The idea that there are absolutes in terms of rules for writing is laughable when there books like Twilight and Fourth Wing exists, lol.
This list explains why so many books of low quality are getting published.
lol if you wanted to remove “excessive prose” that basically means removing half the Witcher books. And that’s actually an example of prose done pretty well. What a weird article.
So I am a graduate of the Odyssey Writers Workshop. We were told "NO prologue." "NO 'said bookisms' aka. only use said or asked for dialogue. Everything else is a red flag that marks you as an amateur, and editors will reject your work and NEVER tell you about this rule." Also "Infodumps are BAD."
I am currently reading "Ready Player One," a novel that became a bestseller and a Steven Spielberg movie. And guess what? It has a prologue. It has infodumps. It has said bookisms. Guess what? The book was published anyway.
This makes me think unkind thoughts about the "rules" I was taught.
The thing is that those rules work well, they're just not meant to be taken to the absolute and it's ridiculous that they taught you like that. Prologues can or cannot work depending on how you make them. Sometimes authors do just make prologues because they think they have to, even when the story could've done without one. Said and asked are very non-invasive dialogue tags and help the reader flow through dialogue smoothly--it's jarring to see different dialogue tags every other sentence. However, you can't use said or asked each time because characters will shout or whisper or grumble (and more!) and that needs to be conveyed appropriately, too. Infodumps...hm, I would personally say they're never well done. I've yet to find an author who does it well. But at the same time, if it's a story I enjoy and want to know more lore about, I won't mind the infodumping even if it is really offputting. Writing is an art form and rules are going to be bent and broken. It's really weird of them to staunch a writer's creativity like that
I know a lot of people that skip paragraphs if they're too long
Never always do everything nothing all the times never. Do what is right for your story.
Prologues are good to catch the interest of the reader. It's the dress and makeup of rhe first date. That's so bizarre to suggest something like that.
like all rules (as you said) knowing them allows you to manipulate them... but I disagree with your point on the prologues. Sure there are exception where people do them well. But generally speaking in fiction the reason authors often do them is because they couldn't figure out a way to incorporate them into the story. So to me it's often a failure by the writer rather than just back story. That doesn't mean it can't be done well of course. I mean look at the way Shakespeare does them (play versions) he has a monologue that are usually remember better than the plays sometimes (because he make amazing prose out of them). It's a good rule imo.
All of books are too many words 🤣
I find it very annoying when all dialogue includes the word said. I miss the use of words asked, grumbled or stated, for example. Further, I will forever defend the prologue and fail to understand why a reader would choose not to read it. A author once stated that your prologue should be chapter one. For no other reason than a reader would otherwise skip it. Therefore perhaps it is good advice to authors as a proportion of readers are beyond help.
A lot of these are subjective ideas of what makes good writing. The exclamation mark rule is really weird, imo. 😂
Yuo souldnt splel yuor wrods worng. - Teh Grauniad
Also:
Passive voice should not be used. - Strunk & White
No one:
Writing advice guru: Ah, readers. They must surely hate words.
Jk, I kinda get what they (probably) meant, but this generalization bs deserves all the memes
Elliot : but some of them are just so...
Me : what ? What 😳 ?
Elliot : BAAAAAAAAAAD
Me : oh, ok 😂