VW Line Bore Disaster!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 тра 2023
- Ain't nuthin easy. We check the #2 main bearing web, measure the main bearing bores, and make a hard decision about line boring. We even make some progess with the old Portatool boring bar but then it all goes downhill.
#vdubrun23 #hardtimesenginebuild - Авто та транспорт
I admire your persistence and determination to this.
Thanks Gary, I love this stuff and despite the occasional bummers I'm grateful to have the opportunity to explore engine building. Thanks for checking in!
Props for learning, it will Pay off in the end
Thanks Goat, I think so too. We'll keep at it!
Keep your head up brother. There are people out there that charge good money to do this that have no idea what they are doing. I am confident that you will figure this out and we need somebody that can do it right so don’t give up. You’re only disappointed because you care and there is nothing wrong with that
Well said Darrin!
Wow Darrin, this means a lot to me. Thanks for your thoughtful support and confidence. You're right about the disappointment; caring is also why we get back on the horse and keep going. Thanks again and I hope you're having a great Sunday!
Love to watch stuff I don't know a darn about for my Bug. Thanks for posting. Would love to see you and Mustie1 team up on video.
Thanks campion05, I don't know much about it either! Would love to meet Mustie1 sometime, he's part of a cool group of North-east VW UA-camrs. And the summers up there are gorgeous! Thanks for watching!
Dang that sucks! Glad to see someone else getting their porta tool out:)
Yeah, that stung a bit but that's the learning process. We don't fail until we give up!
@@HapticGarage so true!
Dam it man !! you're better than this. 😅 It is not only the destination.. it's also the journey. I know we are all having fun. Plus its better you then me. Love ya man. BIG HUG FROM TEXAS
Thanks Ipz, it was disappointing but all part of the learning process. Will make victory that much sweeter. Thanks for being supportive, we'll get there man!
You’ve got titanium balls, my friend! Stuff like that I leave to the machine shop. Or this is one of those instances in which you measure, measure and measure again after cutting, because it’s non reversible. I do admire the drive to learn and you’ll eventually learn to do it perfectly. You’ll obviously need to refurbish the tool or get a new one so that it can be really precise.
Thanks Vayabroder, I think you'll like the next few episodes. You're right, this is usually best left to the pros but I'm fascinated with this engine design and a hopeless DIYer. Thanks for being supportive, it's always great to hear from you!
No mistakes only a learning curve love the video ! Thank you !
Right on Neal, loving the process even if it stings a little on occasion. Thanks for the support!
That is a shame! At least you're learning! I wish I was more mechanically inclined when the service manager was rebuilding the seized engine in my '68 VW. That was in 1970 or 1971 so I've forgotten just about all of the details. I'll have to ask my buddy who worked in the parts department at the time if he remembers what parts were replaced during the rebuild. I seem to recall that I may have gotten a set of cylinders and maybe pistons. Good luck and I'll be watching!
Hey A J K, thanks for the support. I agree, a set of new pistons and cylinders were probably part of the rebuild. The heads may have gotten some attention too. You might ask your buddy if they "split the case" on that build, it would give you a bit more history. Thanks for watching!
@@HapticGarage My contact at the dealer just got back from an RV trip with his wife. He doesn't remember what was replaced and even forgot what the original problem was with the engine. Oh well. Best of luck with your project!
Sorry I missed this AJK and sorry no info was available. It was worth asking! From his response, I'd guess it was the usual parts in a rebuild without any memorable headaches. Thanks for the good luck wishes!
Utmost admiration! It’s not easy learning such a complex tool. Keep trying and learn from your mistakes. I have also misread micrometers by one itty bitty line. Try to figure out a fail safe somehow. In my line of work, we take multiple readings by different people, that usually catches mistakes. I know that’s not possible in your situation. But taking multiple readings might help. Also please wear safety glasses. We only got two eyes. Please protect them.
Thanks Larrymc, I agree- multiple measurements are part of the solution. I'm thinking I should do all the setup and then go back to check each cutter so my measurements are separated by process. Agreed about the safety glasses. I'm best about hearing protection and usually good about eye protection. Based on this experience, prescription glasses are incoming!
Maybe use a caliper for final confirmation to catch mistake. If got one off you will catch it. Great work learning this stuff it's tiring measuring so much. Not easy. Great video got me nervous smoking mag. Lol
Thanks Jacqueline, I've experimented with a caliper check but haven't settled on anything yet. Makes sense to have some type of a follow up check if I'm going to change the cutters so often- I think the pros set up a bar and leave it for several cuts. Thanks for watching!
@@HapticGarage maybe a two sets of mains to get it a crusty success. Thanks for the knowledge and experience
My pleasure Jacqueline. There are no rules anymore, we'll do what we can to build a runner!
Its been 35 years since I used one of those but back in the day I worked at a VW specialty shop that had several of those boring bars but the one's we had were hydraulic.
It installed the same way but the drive head was separate and locked onto the boring bar at the rear of the head. There were adjustments on the end cones as well that allowed you to take out the play each time after the bar was installed in the block.
The cutter rings were similar but were not split like yours, they were solid aluminum blocks with inserts that were set in with clamps. The insert and replaceable cutters were fixed, you didn't need to make any adjustments. It allowed the cutters to use a more commonly available cutter tip. To change from say .010" over to .020" over, you changed out all the cutter rings or holders.
The drive head was hydraulic on the bars we used.
It also required a pretty heavy drill to power it, We had an old Black and Decker 3/4" model with two 12" long pipe handles. There was an iron bracket that bolted to two of the bell housing holes, it engaged a 4" long roll pin that stuck out of the hydraulic head.
Once installed, the cut took about 10 minutes to complete. The instructions said to not use any lube, dry cut only.
The shop had several of those bars, and pretty much kept a bar set up for each size combination.
What drives or pulls that bar through the engine? Is it threaded or just manual force?
The bars we had were painted that same bright green/yellow color but the Portaline name don't ring a bell. I seem to remember them being made in Austria or somewhere in Europe.
They also had bars for various Porsche engines too that used the same power head.
The bar movement was controlled by a knob or lever on the side of the power head, which was driven by the drill. You chucked up a drive adapter, then it engaged the pump drive end. The bar was set into the pump with a set screw and long allen wrench. Set up took about 20 minutes or so.
The biggest error you could do was not removing or not checking for a broken dowel pin in the case. Hitting one would ruin the case and the cutting head. We were told the cutting heads or discs were $325 each, plus the cutters which were something like $8 each in 1982 or so money.
VW themselves stopped line boring cases in the late 60's, they felt that the reduced thickness of the block and any other warpage that the re-bore was making up for was detrimental enough to the engine's longevity that it would shorten the average engine life by 20%. At the dealer, the case got tossed nearly every time making them a great source for cases back then but they eventually put an end to that too because they felt the metal was worth more to melt it down and make new blocks.
Since cases were cheap, it didn't matter. That's pretty much why those portable boring bars came about.
Centering the bar on the sealing surfaces is more important than cylinder surface alignment. If the crank is off center in the block, those little grooves in the front pulley won't work, and the rear seal can end up offset to one side or the other. In that aspect the portable boring bars were better than what a regular machine shop would do on a boring machine.
What works well for a cast iron block doesn't work so well on a split VW or Porsche case.
On a conventional motor, you cut down the caps and rebore to standard size, that can't be done with a split case.
Thanks for the info @VB-bk1lh that was an interesting read. This bar is hydraulic also, the feed mechanism is the green thing bolted to the flywheel end.
I'd love to get my hands on one of those bars you describe, but I'm guessing they are long gone with maybe one or two surviving as a family heirloom. The days of cheap cases are long gone too! Makes it all the more rewarding to keep these classics alive any way we can. Thanks again for sharing your experience!
Hey there Brent, it's an exciting video💪🏻, going far above my ability to even try some as you did there 🤔, But luckily I don't need to do so. Of course, my VW T3 engine is in superior condition, will look out for the continuing EP-all the best my friend👍🏻🇺🇸🤗.🙏🏻🍀🇳🇱🇳🇴☮ Greetings.Hubertus
Thanks Hubertus, always makes me smile when I hear from you and think about someday seeing you drive that T3 across your beautiful countryside.
@@HapticGarage Thanks Brent, it`s the same here, I always have a great time seeing what you are doing☺, and the great way you comment on your approach whit that great humor🤗, Man I love it. beseeing you to the next vid🇺🇸👍🏻, 🙏🏻☮🍀🇳🇴🇳🇱greetings Hubertus
I can appreciate that you want to learn this and I commend you for going for it, personally I would take it to a machine shop that would give me a finished bore that I know is correct. Great video !
Thanks Keith, having a pro do it makes more sense in most cases (pun intended). This experience shows why we shouldn't argue with the price they charge. Thanks for being supportive, we'll keep at it!
Well done, I was a Tool Design engineer working a lot with cutting tools and designing boring bars, great to watch what you are doing. I have a 71 Beetle that is a work in progress so enjoy watching your videos. Keep up the great work. 🏴
Wow thanks Graham, that's high praise from a Tool Design engineer! '71 was a great year for VWs, I'm sure your Beetle is a source of joy. We'll keep at it and good luck on your project!
Looking forward to the next video on this. I would have probably made the same mistake many more than two times. I, too, cannot trust my depth mic's lines so I have started bottoming it out and counting the lines as I make the revolutions. My OCD has me doing this with my torque wrench too. I don't know how this helps any.....maybe we both need supermagnifying glasses on hand next time the lines fight us.🤷♂️
You bet Christian, anything that works is fair game. I've been to the optometrist after shooting this video... it's time. If I used your technique of bottoming the mic and counting from there, I might have avoided a big boo-boo. Aside from the drama, I'm just happy to be playing with engine parts. Thanks for watching!
I know it’s heartbreaking to lose the case, but I really appreciate you including your ups and downs along this journey. Makes its feel more approachable for all of us garage mechanics. Keep plugging along and I’ll keep watching!
Thanks FeveredMind, I'm glad to share. We'll keep pushing through and good things will happen in time. Thanks for being supportive!
I love it! I’ve always wanted to try this myself. You’re doing a great job!👍
Thanks Tony! Me too, and will really like it when it works reliably. We'll keep digging!
Great content as always thanks for going into such depth with the details and not deleting when messing up
Thanks kyridgejumper, I appreciate you mentioning the details- a part of me was wondering if it was too much! And the messing up, well... that comes naturally. Thanks for the support!
Hey, we learn by our mistakes. Learning by yours is a plus for us onlookers.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks so much for the encouragement Rick, it's an honor have you with us!
Brent ----- on the fixture you made for measuring the Cutter Tip --- Radius / Diameter ---- I might try using a ten - thousandths dial indicator with a Button Foot on the end for a smooth rotation through it's arc ------------- In the beginning of your video ---- you mentioned that the --- two end pilot bushngs ---- were not as nice as you would have liked ---- Said --- had a few thousandths slop in it ----- so with that ---- the diameter bored wouldn't be concentric --- the bore must have been somewhat out of round? ----------- Not sure if you have a Lathe ------ Small one would do ----- bore those two-end pilot bushings out ----- can buy a nominal size O.D. bronze ---- bore the pilot bushings to the O.D. of the bronze ---- press-in and bore to within a tenth or two of the boring bar Can polish I.D. to that final size ------- Just a Thought ------ Enjoy what You do -------- Rodney
Thanks for the input Rodney! I may look for a micrometer with those attributes, that does sound like a better setup. Regarding the bushings, I considered bronze sleeves (which may have been the better bet) but went a different direction and will share that in the next video. I may ultimately come back around to that and have a similar project planned using some bronze bushings in the near future. I would have expected concentricity issues too but haven't measured a significant amount. The bushings usually have less slop when installed; I'm guessing they are canted in their respective case bores a tiny amount so the bar is slightly out of parallel with the bushing bore as it passes through the bushing. Of course, that's also a problem. My guess is the crank centerline may not end up in the same place as a result. Thanks again for the comments, this is fascinating stuff!
ah Brent! Always so heartbreaking to have to re-learn a lesson you thought you already knew! Thanks for showing it all. This is the real deal with us hobbyists and tinkerers. I am along for the journey for sure and love your approach! This is going to be a fantastic series that will be so valuable to so many of us. Thanks for taking the time to do it!
Wow Annie, thanks so much for the wonderful support. I'm happy to share the whole process; these little bumps in the road make the good times that much better. I'm glad to have you along, we'll keep digging!
Full bore , you gave it a go , there is always a next time .
that how i live my life .
Thanks Chris, I see what you did there... "full bore"... get it? Oh but seriously folks, thanks for being supportive, we'll keep digging!
Thank you for sharing the tough experience. I know the feeling.
Thanks Max, all part of the learning process. Helps to define the good times!
D'OHH ! And I had my best man on it. Thanks for the video, yea, I'm NOT doing this... I'd like to START to build engines, and there is a machine (VW) guy less than an hour away. Now, I see why his price is the price. Thanks !
Yeah, this one didn't go well but we'll get it figure out. I agree a pro machinist would be the more reasonable route, and there's deep wisdom in what you said about price. Thanks for being supportive Dan!
Sucks but those mistakes are the ones that teach me the most in the past
I’m sure is going to be the same for you brother great videos and thanks for sharing this invaluable information 🙌🏽
Thanks toro80, yeah sometimes the learning process is a little rough but we take our lumps and stay grateful for the good stuff!
Great video!!!
I learned a valuable lesson about vw line boring one day. My buddy line bored a few blocks, swept up his shavings into a box. He left, I show up and have a welding project to finish up…… Start grinding a few tabs to weld to an axle. That box ignited from from grinder sparks. I never seen a magnesium fire, pretty intense. Cost me a broom, I slid it outside to burn out.
Burning Metal?!?
Good move- I'd lose a broom to save a shop any day!
@@HapticGarage yea those shavings are really unstable. Apparently magnesium burns white hot.
Yeah man, doesn't take much! I've heard it's used in fireworks for the really bright white ones. Makes sense. Thanks again for sharing this!
We win and we lose. Thanks for being real.
Well said, thanks for the support!
I have not finished the video yet. Will continue after I type this.
I have used 2 & 3 sets of bearings to get one engine put 2gether.
The parts nowadays are so iffy - building these VW engine is way more work than they should be. I have found all kinds of different stuff in the 6 years I've been building engines.
Thanks for watching @vwmountainman9701 I agree, we have to be careful with the parts available today. Lots to check on both new and old parts!
Cool...a man willing to yearn to learn.
Thanks 2 Nickles, I agree. Ego is not an effective engine building tool; gotta put that aside to learn. Thanks for watching!
When I went to rebuild my motor, I realized the case was line bored to different over sizes on different bearings. Most of it was .20 over, one of them was .30 over. Ended up having to get a new case since it was in need of another bore job, and that's just asking for trouble at .40
Yeah, based on what I'm hearing this probably isn't as rare as we'd like it to be. Each bore takes a little more out of the case- you may be surprised to hear there are 0.100" OD bearings out there. Yup. 2.5 times more oversized than 0.040"! I agree with your preference when building a serious engine with money parts. Thanks for sharing!
@@HapticGarage I didn't know they made them that big, I couldn't imagine running bearings that large oversized, not on an engine I'd want to last. Maybe as a last ditch effort to save a numbers matching case for museum purposes.
Love to have that tool
Sorry about the case but great video.
Thanks Doubleodude, we win some and lose some. Onward!
You are a machine my friend great to learn from you is so great for me, I just immigrated to Australia and all ready got a beetle pan with transmission and it is an auto stick needs some help and guidance on how it works and build please if you know them?
Oh that's cool Danie! I've driven an autostick once, but never worked on them. They are a special breed of VW with some unique details, but with a little work I'm sure you'll get it figured out and driving down the AU highway. Good luck and thanks for watching!
Enjoyed the video. Been wanting to see this process for many years. Don't know what the vw specs are for this. was there still a bearing available to cope with the cut you took? I am a fitter/machinist by trade and wouldn't be the first time i have read a measurement incorrectly or took too large a cut. When i saw those shavings i was screaming in my head stop stop STOOOOP haha. Good on you for having a go at this I'm impressed with anyone that would take this on. look forward to watching more of your stuff.always had a soft spot for air cooled V dubbs. We call em dak daks because of the noise they make goin down the road .
Dak daks- that's cool. Thanks for the props @blurtmenow I wanted to stop but I think it's too late once it starts on these cuts; can't afford to eat up bearing support with a step in the bore unless I was reeeaaaallly quick. There are many sizes of bearings available, including controversially large sizes not everyone would use. I'm just learning the process so I'm still willing to try whatever teaches me something. Thanks for joining the fun!
Very cool video.
Thanks Daniel!
@@HapticGarage maybe you can get some crazy thick oversize bearings made to fill the space it's over bored
Yeah, that's definitely a possibility but custom won't be necessary. The math works out to be right at 3rd oversize (0.60") so there's bearings for that. If that doesn't work out there are also bearings for 4th OS, then for the bold risk takers there are a few 5th OS (0.100"!!!) bearings out there. We'll make something work for sure!
@@HapticGarage that's excellent news man! Get one and shoot it for us that'd be a hell of a redemption arch for this engine casing video series.
I'm on it. We have a few options just as long as we end up with a runner!
this is not easy and can be a nightmare like you whiteness it. but never less you tried it and made a stupid mistake.
in some cases you need to measure triple and cut once. its a learning progress and you will figger it out.
great video and really appreciate the honesty by going into the mist. lesson learned, back on your feet and go go go.
Agreed '55. The easiest thing to fix is me! Already back at it and good things are coming. Thanks as always for your support!
I just feel by finger if oil groove space is higher than surroundings to make first judgement.
Yup, that's a "handy" strategy. Just to play devil's advocate, I recently measured one that passed that test but the bore was a few thou too big! That was disappointing... Thanks for watching!
keep on.
You could always weld up the over cut bearing surface and recut... Just an idea...
Thanks Gary, that would be a cool fix but I think there would be some complications from heat warpage. No worries, we have some options and will keep pushing forward. Thanks for watching!
I like your show thanks, and have a question should the cam have thrust or how much thanks
Thanks @harryloibl5183 The camshaft thrust should be checked and many specs say no more than about 0.005" of endplay. New bearings are tight and then modified to suit because you need a little space to prevent bearing and cam damage. Check all of this against your favorite manual and good luck with the project!
@@HapticGarage thanks buddy, it’s a love for what you do and I see that love in you too when I watch your channel 😊
I would like to find 1 of those bars 😊
Yeah, was lucky to find this one years ago. Good luck in your search, we need to be sure none of these get scrapped!
Maybe time the cutters so they cut opposite sides along the bar, that way the bar flexs less from 4 tools pushing the same side at once...
you should've took a spring cut after the first cut. you probably had tool deflection for that long shaft with the cutters on it
what is the best way to remove rust from the crank and rods?
Having a crank turned/polished and rods honed at a machine shop is probably the preferred method, but I'm guessing you'd like to save a "usable" crank. I've dabbled with that too but the tough part is knowing any rust means there's less metal left, add to that the surface needs to be stooopidly smooth. For the crusty engines in the shop these days, I've done the poor man's polish with a strip of wet/dry sandpaper soaked in WD40, then wrap it around the journal and rotate it using a shoe string wrapped around the paper. Takes a while but the idea is to keep the circle round, and one's expectations on results should be adjusted down a bit!
First step is just getting the rust off everything other than the journals. I saw a video putting these in a tub with evapo rust. Looked like it worked pretty good. This motor sat around who knows how long and anything steel got Rusty not having a running engine throwing oil over them. I know after cleaning shooting them with WD-40 will keep them from rusting and put in a plastic bag till ready to use again.
Wait…. You’re in a jacket and a shirt that isn’t black! 😳🤣
Must have been laundry day.
You need too measue 4 different spots on each bearing spot like a x pattern cause that's where the most force is when the crankshafts rotates under pressure
It's always best too leave it up too the pros even when it costs 500
An excuse to buy a HF ac tig set up, lol
High speed can be made SHARPER than carbide to cut magnesium and aluminum
Oh wow :(
Yeah, that was a bummer but it hasn't stopped us!
@@HapticGarage Awesome. I'm new and learning. I'm getting close to 50 and thought I'd see what the old VW's are about.
@@dirk013adfa I'm close to 50 too and confirm that it's a great age to be playing with VDubs. Welcome to the hobby!
I used to work as a carpenter/joiner. I'd often make mistakes. It's a question of whether you learn from them or not. I guarantee that even time-served technicians in machine shops make mistakes, so trying to accurately line bore your own case, with a worn tool is tempting fate! On the plus side, you know you can now grind your own cutters, and fully appreciate the need for high accuracy when setting up. I bet the next one you do will be almost perfect :) I'm in the process of rebuilding my Type 1 stroker at the moment, and I'm leaving all the precision machining to a reputable shop, but hats off to you for taking the plunge. It's far more rewarding to fix things yourself and learn in the process. I can't think of a foolproof way of checking the accuracy of the finished cut, before committing to the case, other than making up a jig from nylon/plexiglass (or similar) to run the tool through...?
Indeed @billyb6043 it's important to try new things and learn from mistakes. We've had a couple follow up victories since then but approach each attempt humbly. The bores may be measured and the oil clearance may be plasti-gauged against the crank, but I think the ultimate check of the boring job is by feel- "snug" fit of bearings into bore halves and "smooth" rotation of a bedded crank. It's fascinating to me that all this precision still comes down to feel and I respect the real experts who know what that is! Thanks for watching and the supportive comment, I wish you the best of luck on your stroker build!
JB weld...??..😬
Funny you suggest that, we found some JB weld here: ua-cam.com/video/9snLoF5o7eQ/v-deo.html I don't think it would do the job on the main bearing bores due to the heavy load and expansion/contraction during heat cycles. We'll figure something out. Thanks for watching @59vaughn !
!!
Indeed!
If you listen to your narrative after the first bad cut & non perfect align bore measuring...🤔🤔🤔
The oh shit moment of shame as a machinist when you realize you fucked up big time ahaha