I love that you show your guys in full safety gear being deliberate and cautious. Workers acting cool and nonchalant without safety gear sets a bad precedent.
@@TheEvertw My guess would be the high pressure that comes out of that piston tube, you saw it in the calcs how high it was, if that blows into your eye, you might be blind.
And so far the most powerful TSDICE I’ve ever heard of used in freighters is the Wartsila Sultzer RTA96-4C. The 14 cylinder variant makes about 109,000 HP and 5.6 million lb ft of torque at just 102 RPM. That engine is bigger than the three story house I grew up in!
@@InsanePacoTaco Not that much. For the same power you may have lower rpm and higher torque engine, but that would then require for the same speed steeper propeller blade pitch angle, so (assume the losses as the same) the resulting thrust force would be exactly the same. Actually co paring the torque is irrelevant, even for a car dynamics, unless you have other parameters (rpm range, inertia of the flywheel,...) aligned as well (well when speaking only about gas car engines, the physics around gas combustion is what leads to the other design parameters to be alike so comparing torque figures does make sense there; but comparing torque figures between gas vs electric makes no sense at all). Otherwise what matters is the power as function of where you are in the rpm range, plus how much inertia energy is in the moving engine mass. For different torque and rpm you will compensate by just a different gearing.
You need to teach your cadet how to properly coil and store the cable to avoid the tangled mess and the struggle I see on the video. Search for the "over under" method. They never teach this at school, and it is one of the first thing I explain to them. If they coil the cable like a rope, as untrained people usually do, they impart a twist at every turn. Long and stiff digital cables have a internal structure that behaves like a spring. Tension is stored on the cable; it will then uncoil in a messy way at the next use. After a few mishandling, the cable looks like 4:21. Digital signal attenuation will rise due to the shifting and twisting of the complex internal cable structure, and after a while the cable may ultimately fail and/or become impossible to coil in a orderly fashion due to external sheating damage/deformation. That's a shame, because cables are expensive and should last a long time when properly handled. I work in a completely different industry, but I see that some practical issues are the same.
I second this. I’m in the robotics and automation field and I’d venture a guess that 3/4 of the problems we see are cable related. Seriously, cables need to be treated very well.
There's a lot more going on in everyday life than a lot of people realise and give credit for. Many go throughout their lives without understanding or giving a 2nd thought what makes the wheels turn thusly making their lives easier. Just the simple nut and bolt that holds our lives together is a magical thing.
I remember, we used the old device. The device was kept secret by Chief and 2nd Engineer and test were carried out by Chief engineer or 2nd engineer along with Diesel Mechanic when the juniors were out of Engine room. However, when I became 2nd Engineer, I allowed all my engineers especially the Junior Engineers and 5th/4th Engineer to take measurements when ever the weather was calm. Those black sheep Chief and 2nd Engineers and Diesel Mechanics are now in grave or death beds.
@@rherman9085 They don't want that the juniors learn the use of the device/ trick of the trade. The owners should call them for their ships regularly. No other person are employed on that vessel
@@sohailnomani I kind of figured that. Hey thanks for the reply & the info. Though I am learning (for the fun of it), kind of cool things to hear about. Thank you!
@@benjurqunov yes. We called them Commodore 3rd Engineer ( they were in every rank ) who used to hide every tool from juniors. Who used to send juniors to search for tools when they were making some adjustment ( tools were in their own pockets) so that the juniors don't learn any technique.
It boggles my mind that you guys just have, like a 3/8 in?, valve directly into the combustion chamber. That puts the scale of these engines even more into perspective. I'm always looking forward to your more in depth technical videos, AFAIK no one else makes this sort of video. Also maybe cylinder five needs a bit of a hug and some encouraging talk.
That was very interesting! Especially liked the old ‘analogue’ tools using recording paper and the planimeter - never seen one before - I was wondering if you’d have to count little squares on the paper to get the area!
As someone that has had to repair such instruments I appreciate the care the engine room tech is taking with the cable connectors. Those things are NOT cheap and unless you have spares? Not something you want broken while underway!
Dobson and Mcguinness indicator if I remember correctly from over 50 years ago. There was one on a single cylinder diesel engine at Guildford College of Technology. Bits of sting and paper allover the place but it worked. Probably before you were born chief. We tied a bit of string around the govenor, apprentices will be apprentices. It was on the second floor. Thank God we managed to cut the string in time or it would have been on the first floor.
@@charliepearce8767No, the sump is part of the ships structure and underneath the engine. Oil pumps are large motor driven affairs located at the after end of the engine as ships tend to trim by tbe stern, so the oil is deepest there. Its still possible to loose suction on the oil pump if rolling badly, which will start to shut the engine down, but you roll the other way and oil pressure is restored. This can be reduced by adding more oil to the sump. You have suction filters to protect the pumps and much finer discharge filters to protect the engine, much the same as a car engine. You also continuously centrifuge the oil through a purifier to remove water and solids, but usually water, due to condensation, leaks from water cooled pistons if still fitted. Any liner leaks usualy appear through the scavenge drains on two strokes. To have a dry sump means the sump has to be higher than the engine and this has an effect on stability and more pumps. The bottom of the crankcase is dry as you have to stand in it to carry out certain inspections and overhauls, but below the steel you are standing on will be the ME Lube oil sump. There are a couple of mesh covered drains into the sump from the bottom of the crankcase, one forward and one aft usualy.
The torque numbers are impressive! At ~509 radians per second and 6.762 MW, the engine has to exert almost 13.3 kNm of torque on its shaft! That is a *HUGE* torque! If a human wanted to create such a torque using an “imaginable” force, over a wrench 🔧 100 meters long (!) it would still take 133 N to get 13.3 kNm. (Such a wrench is hard to come by!) Interpreting the force of 133 N in a “pre-gravity” way: It would be like pushing against the Earth-based equivalent of 13.55 kg. To get the torque, the force would need to be directed around the circumference of a circle 100 m in radius. While it is imaginable for a human to exert the static *torque* alone (as long as the hypothetical 100-meter 🔧 wrench is provided), making the *power* would require moving 81 times every second around that circle. Which would be a speed of around 50.9 km/s. 😆 The Earth’s escape velocity is 11.19 km/s…
I wish my dad was still alive 😢. As merchant sailor & engineer during the late 1940s and early 1950s I think he would have found this interesting to watch. Still have one of his textbooks from his days at the ship engineers school/course. It's thicker than a bible 🙂.
Good morning CHIEF, A fire has erupted in the funnel of an occupied Carnival cruise ship while docked at Turks. This just occurred recently. What, in your opinion causes a raging funnel fire. I watched as the crew used on board fire lines, the water spray was at least 15 feet short of hitting the flaming funnel, no injuries reported at this time. Peace always.
Very good Chief. I enjoyed the details of the 'how to.' Being far out to sea, is reason enough to know that your power plant will get you safely to the next port.
Do any ships have torque-measuring couplings on the output shafts so that engine power can be calculated directly (and continuously)? This is frequently done on large stationary equipment on land.
Yes, there is. Arrangement of coils in two places along the shaft with a known distance. The twist of the shaft when turning will be measured and amount of twist determines the output in the value you prefer. Made for continues running and as a fixed installation.
@@petermaddison4136 Wouldn’t say maybe over the top. However, you have other options to figure out your output by comparing Factory Acceptance Trail data with a time running the engine during a voyage. It is a little bit more rough however since the calorific value of the fuel will be different along with external parameters such as ambient temp, atm. pressure and humidity compared with FAT trails. Buuuuuut in 99% of cases or for troubleshooting it is good enough.
Fascinating. I was surprised at the apparently small difference between the compression pressure max. and the combustion pressure max. I would have expected a much higher differential. Then again the intake air is supercharged, so it’s already under more pressure than ambient. (I was a small engine mechanic, so this is the other side of the universe for me!)
The diff between min and max you see is normal for ICE, no matter the fuel. Also note that the peak pressure occurs at around 20~25 degrees, that is around 30cm from TDC, while the pressure before combustion is at TDC.
Very very interesting, excellent explanation on measuring engine performance, great to see the analogue instrument as well, brilliant. Thanks for sharing.
Very nice, I enjoyed watching this, thank you! I've always been fascinated by marine engines, the bigger the better, and when I was in my teens I had a cross-section of a MAN marine engine poster on my wall, while my classmates had photos of girls in various states of undress!! 😅
Hi from uk Chief MAKOiand crews👋👍 thanks for these on board activity and maintenance schedule routines 👌 really appreciate you taking time for us on board and thanks to for crews patience when they surely just want to get job done👍 it amazes me how times change but the technology stays the same its just advance thru computers instead of manual input👍 thanks for your time and be safe see you soon👍👋
Yes engine power and efficiency directly impact the biggest cost of running the ship, fuel use. You definitely want your engine to be running at the absolute best efficiency while at sea, so as to keep that fuel consumption down to the minimum.
I'm surprised, a modern, digitally controlled engine does not have this kind of instrumentation (the cylinder pressure transducers, even direct torque sensors on the shaft,...) already installed permanently on them with all this monitoring happening continuously, so you still have to manually connect a separate meter on each cylinder to do this. I would expect such instrumentation should be way cheaper than letting a fault to cause more extensive damage because it gets undetected for up to a month. Plus there could be a fault presenting itself as an abnormality only under certain special condition (like the engine warming up or so), so here may slip undetected altogether...
At a large wastewater treatment plant we have several on line instruments, but we still perform a lot of manual tests on the rotating machinery,. This makes operators evaluate machinery performance by actually standing next to the machine, inspecting the installations, by listening and feeling...and keeps operators writing PAPER logs! At walk-around I very often assess the pumps or piping vibration by placing a coin to an appropriate location. It should stay there for a long time. We have a competition going on that one.
It is clear that you do not understand the operating conditions on these engines: - sensors in the combustion chamber foul, and need periodical calibration leading to an extra job to be done when the engine is out of operation while this manual job is just a 1 hour job during running of the engine while in transit. - these sensors are not cheap, i know of man b&w, who quoted such a permanently installed system, at approx 300000€ per engine for an 8 cyl marine diesel. - most of the times, these engines run at a continuous load, meaning it is not really important if a fault is present at low power outputs, as long as the 'normal' operating parameters are OK. Thats how it works in practice. I know in theory its like 'yeh you have a misfire at 10% load on a cylinder because of a bad injector or fuel rack mismatch' but really i dont care as long as when the engine is at nominal load, the cylinder does its thing. Greets, A marine engineer.
@@redmarbos Indeed, I do not know about the details of these big commercial marine engines, that is why I asked. I was just making some extrapolations from my experience with way smaller machines, in order to trigger a bit more detailed response. With the "defect presenting only at certain conditions" I did not actually mean a defect that is stable and affecting just those conditions, but a defect/fault which uses to end up in quite expensive carnage (e.g. when a valve breaks into pieces and these falls into cylinder, getting jammed between the piston and the head), but which in their initial stages cause shifts observable only in those abnormal conditions (e.g. a crack started in the valve, causing initially just a small leak, visible only during low rpm when there is plenty of time to lose enough pressure to show on the meter; then just replacing the valve will prevent the collision carnage from happening). But as I said, I do not know any details about real world operation, so e.g. how frequent are such defects, or so.
@@annaplojharova1400 ah okay, now it is clear. These failures very rarely happen out of nowhere. Marine diesel engines are built on a different spec than consumer grade engines. When a cylinder head reaches a certain amount of running hours, it will be replaced, and sent to a service shop where they will inspect and restore it to its new-like state. This is not something that is regularly done on consumer grade engines as far as i know, which in turn leads to sometimes catastrophic failures in these engines.
Measuring the area of a drawn line? Just do what chemists do, cut out the graph and weigh the piece of paper. You have its GSM and its mass, multiply the two and then multiply by the scale of the graph and you have the volume between the curves.
Missing your updates. I check this site several times a week. Hope to hear from you soon. USN--MM3 Qualified 1200 # steam and auxiliaries and carry a MN steam engineer's license. It so cool to see the advances in engineering since I steamed the open seas, years ago.
Gosh, Chief, this brought back memories of when I taught engine theory at an aircraft mechanics school. We used PLANK as our formula. This was for radial aircraft engines as used during WWII. I’m 80 years old now so,that was a long time ago. Great explanation! Thanks, Chief
Well, Mazda does it, cylinder pressure transducer for each cylinder in its Skyactive X engine (HCCI technology, so it needs them to calculate ignition timing and etc...). Greetings from Costa Rica.
Very expensive.. like 300k uk pounds per cyclinder.. not worth it. As long as the results are within parameters... And these engines are regularly maintained, checked and even overhauled while at sea so a catastrophic failure is very rare if you have a very professional crew like majority of huge cargo ships.
Interesting stuff. I wonder if the newest ships are using full electronic engine management? If so you would have (the ability at least) of a real time display of all the data and calculations. You would also have the ability to tune for maximum effeciency based on condition and do automatic fuel change overs when required. (it could even hook to the GPS to indicate or automate the change as you are approaching a fuel change zone. Thanks for the tech look, These videos are great for those in land based industrial concerns, it's interesting to see how ship systems differ from land based ones. Calm seas,
This must be a rather small ship sailing on 9,000 HP even if this shows at 85% of full ahead rpm. By comparison big tankers have engines which will produce power upwards of 70,000 HP.
In old money, it was P.L.A.N/ 33,000 but with metrication and the right units the 33,000 was removed from the equation. 33,000 was foot pounds in a Horse Power. Note this is Indicated Horse power IHP, the actual raw power produced in each cylinder. At the propellor shaft you have shaft horse power which takes into consideration all the frictional losses by the time it gets there. You can also work out the Brake Thermal Efficiency which starts with Calorific Value of the fuel burnt, IHP then you have all the losses, friction, heat lost to cooling water, exhaust gas, lube oil etc. Some of these losses are recouped via the turbo charger providing scavenge air pressure, waste heat boilers to produce steam for domestic and fuel heating but even on large ships they produce enough exhaust gas to produce steam to drive a turbo alternator for electrical power supplies. Cylinder Cooling water is used in a vacuum evaporator to boil sea water at approximately 60°C to produce distilled water for domestic use and ER use. Apart from a small vacuum pump and freshwater discharge pump very little power is used to,produce the fresh water.
Very informative video, I love to learn these type of details about ships, I am not remotely to ships. Couple questions: Why the engine does not have a permanent pressure sensor on each cylinder? a 1000bar sensor is pretty cheap, even to work at the high temperature the engine head has, ie no tube required. Why the connecting sensor port does not have a cap? or was not shown for simplicity?
What is the grey box between the indicator cock and the cylinder? I come from the time of the Dobbie Mcinnes manual Indicator gear, wax papers and french chalk on the fingers to stop greasy smudges on the papers and planimeters. We didn't mess about with gloves for any job especially watchkeeping, your hands were the temperature and vibration sensors as you did the rounds of watchkeeping. No safety hats required as everything was clear of your head. Ear defenders came in later with turbo charged engines, yet you still had noise which is why most of our hearing is failing after retirement. I sailed on a couple of ships with no turbo chargers. The early Doxfords had an engine driven scavenge pump , like a large compressor valve that moved in a cylinder. Common rail fuel system but mechanical fuel valves, not CAV types working on pressure to open them or electro hydraulics like today., but very fuel efficient engines . Bank Lineships had a lot of Doxfords originally 12,000 ton ship 12 tons of fuel per day 12 knots perhaps. We had several ships with Doxfords, twin screw, 5 or 6 cylinder, 6/7 hatch reefer ships, all cargo break bulk, hand loaded, be it general outward bound or frozen lamb, beef homeward bound. Weeks in port during cargo operations which gave us engineers time to carry out Lloyds surveys of all machinery , removing pistons, liners , crankcase bearings, preparing the donkey boilers for their yearly survey, being a fired pressure vessel. There was very little work done by shore contactors. Outward bound as we were carrying general cargo a generator may have had an cylinder head change, or even piston and liner removal, calibration of liners, piston, gudgeon pins. Other maintenance included fluid and filter changes, cooler cleaning, fuel valve changes, so everything was on top line ready for the fridge cargo when more power would be needed especially going through the tropics. In ten years at sea I never once experienced any problems when changing over from MDO to HFO or the reverse and very few unexpected blackouts.
I'm surprised cylinder pressure isn't monitored at all times. Looking at PV diagrams on a log-log scale can provide significant information of a cylinders health, at a glance.
single cylinder exhaust gas temperature is sufficient for indicating general cylinder health. I could imagine that the pressure transducer isn't particularly heat resistant.
I had the same thought. Given that this engine is fully computer controlled with both exhaust valve and injection under computer control, it could be used to tune the engine.
Excellent videos on maritime engineering. Can you upload some videos from basics intermediate and difficult level of engineering. TEXAS Gulf of Mexico.
This is cool stuff. Measuring cylinder pressure and calculating power from the data gives Indicated Power, not Brake Power. To measure Brake Power, there would need to be a torquemeter on the prop shaft and a measurement of engine speed.
Good day Sir, thanks for your educative videos, you're doing a wonderful job. Please, I'll need some advice regarding further studies. I'm currently a 4E with BSc Marine Engineering for University Of Cebu. I'd like to go for a masters degree program in Europe/America, what program/course would you suggest I go for. Thank you sir
Thanks a lot, Chief. This content is very helpful. Need more discussion of purpose of the angle encoder connection, Frequency divider box & junction box.
I have gotten to run some smaller scale ancient ship diesel engines in a museum setting, and though many years have passed, and the scale is far different, they really are very similar! I would rather use the digital gauge, but I love the fiddly old gauge! Lol
But the analog gauge is mechanics you can mend at sea. If a digital pressure sensor fails, that's it, and some sealed cables are close to non-repairable. Have the old backup, and someone young who knows how to use it, and you can measure when you have a problem (which will be when the superior digital stuff decides to misbehave!)
i am confuse in calculating indicated power of engine, because mostly all of them using mean effective pressure instead of mean indicated pressure. indicated power PI = Pi x LAN effective power PE = Pe x LAN mean effective pressure Pe = Pi - friction losses mean indicated pressure Pi = area of diagram (power card) / lenght of diagram x spring constant now I dont know what is correct now. please help sir.
Hi, i want to discuss why our vessel pmax decrease from 9mpa to 8mpa after we change nozzle injector 9 hole to 8 hole? We stick to manual book for injector pressure adjustment. We use mfo 180cst.
Right, I know DP talks ft/lb of torque and it is true that 1 HP = 33,000ft/lbs per minute. I was surprised at the low HP value when I see cruise ships talk numbers like 10X that for propulsion. and at least that number for bow thrusters.
I have seen where eddy currents are used on an output shaft as a load to find load ratings such as these, Of course for that kind of HP it would take one huge piece of machinery to get down somewhere in the shaft alley for this to be done. I find it hard to believe that an engine with this huge bore/stroke and slow RPM's is able to burn the fuel completely, Even fast running engines running number 2 can't burn off the things that some governmental agencies scream about. Is there any type of re-burning circuit implemented in this configuration for exhaust hydrocarbons? Thanks very much.
Excellent video Chief! It's worth mentioning that when coordinating with the bridge for the test, request that they turn off the fire detection loop in the ER. Failure to do so will insure that after a couple of shots out of the open indicator cocks the fire alarm will sound and that anybody trying to sleep will be scrambling out of their rack and heading for their muster station 🤣
oh so MAN _can_ make good software when ships are involved? well that makes me feel much better when i'm torturing myself with the automotive diag software >.
Hey Boss..ahh..Cheif...I was telling a channel from "dangerous catch" Alaskan sea crab...yeah you know the one.... they can put heating elements in the rails and under the deck and one guy says "that would take too much power" as though he was going to run it off his 4 cyclinder car... the video was of how a $3Million boat accumulated ice and started listing into the side of the wind and when they turned into the wind to head to land and that little bit the wind was holding them upright stopped and it capsized.... it makes sence that the side the wind was on accumulated the ice, and the wind pushed it upright...
Sir i am female my question is if theres a chance to be come a marine engineer /chief engineer someday? I'm 16y.o right now but i really really want to be sa marine engineer 😭😭 im very attracted in this kind of work.. Can you give me some advice?
With sensors being very cheap nowadays, why would all of this not be incorporated into the engine, in order to monitor everything continously? Also, it seems cylinder #5 is out of spec? What do you guys do in those cases?
Nothing new here, except for the electronics, as they used the same technique to measure the performance of steam locomotives back in the 1800's. Still interesting to see it in action.
I can see how the modern electronic tool is more accurate, the graph from the old mechanical indicator is very small and looks difficult to trace with a planimeter.
ok. that is impressive! the method used is so straightforward. also impressive as the numbers don't lie. at tested rpm though i wonder of increases in engine speed will change the rated output in actuality due to the time decrease involved in completing each combustion cycle. twisted minds want to know :-). i find these vids very informative and they do tend to set my mind to wander in regards to the interactions of the equipment and personnel onboard.
Chief, I noticed that the test ports are threaded (6:20) and are ?normally bare? . I have always thought that they should be capped/some sort of covering on them to protect the threads. I am assuming this is done in the engineering world to protect the threads and the crew who happen to "stroll" on by in the performance of their duties . and am I wrong that you did remove them pre video production just to speed up the process of the testing.
do u think a engine say a v12 supercar engine tuned to 5000hp would even turn the shaft to main propeller? i dont think so when i see this huge engine with pistons like barrels :D
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Thanks!
Thanks Dr. Andy!
@@ChiefMAKOi are you ok
I love that you show your guys in full safety gear being deliberate and cautious. Workers acting cool and nonchalant without safety gear sets a bad precedent.
It's required to be in full PPE while working onboard. No PPE no insurance for you when some accidents happens to you.
I wondered why a face shield would be required until he opened up that test valve...
@@TheEvertw My guess would be the high pressure that comes out of that piston tube, you saw it in the calcs how high it was, if that blows into your eye, you might be blind.
For anyone wondering, 9068 HP at 81 RPM is roughly 587,974 ft*lb of torque. That big number is not a typo. Thanks Chief!
That’s actually not a lot of HP is ship term, some ships have over 200k horsepower
@@evanleo7633 yeah, but I think that since this ship is a direct drive, the torque is more important than horsepower?
And so far the most powerful TSDICE I’ve ever heard of used in freighters is the Wartsila Sultzer RTA96-4C. The 14 cylinder variant makes about 109,000 HP and 5.6 million lb ft of torque at just 102 RPM. That engine is bigger than the three story house I grew up in!
@@InsanePacoTaco Not that much. For the same power you may have lower rpm and higher torque engine, but that would then require for the same speed steeper propeller blade pitch angle, so (assume the losses as the same) the resulting thrust force would be exactly the same.
Actually co paring the torque is irrelevant, even for a car dynamics, unless you have other parameters (rpm range, inertia of the flywheel,...) aligned as well (well when speaking only about gas car engines, the physics around gas combustion is what leads to the other design parameters to be alike so comparing torque figures does make sense there; but comparing torque figures between gas vs electric makes no sense at all).
Otherwise what matters is the power as function of where you are in the rpm range, plus how much inertia energy is in the moving engine mass. For different torque and rpm you will compensate by just a different gearing.
@@annaplojharova1400 interesting! Thanks for the reply
You need to teach your cadet how to properly coil and store the cable to avoid the tangled mess and the struggle I see on the video. Search for the "over under" method. They never teach this at school, and it is one of the first thing I explain to them. If they coil the cable like a rope, as untrained people usually do, they impart a twist at every turn. Long and stiff digital cables have a internal structure that behaves like a spring. Tension is stored on the cable; it will then uncoil in a messy way at the next use. After a few mishandling, the cable looks like 4:21. Digital signal attenuation will rise due to the shifting and twisting of the complex internal cable structure, and after a while the cable may ultimately fail and/or become impossible to coil in a orderly fashion due to external sheating damage/deformation. That's a shame, because cables are expensive and should last a long time when properly handled. I work in a completely different industry, but I see that some practical issues are the same.
Guessing you work in the sound engineering field?
I second this. I’m in the robotics and automation field and I’d venture a guess that 3/4 of the problems we see are cable related. Seriously, cables need to be treated very well.
There's a lot more going on in everyday life than a lot of people realise and give credit for.
Many go throughout their lives without understanding or giving a 2nd thought what makes the wheels turn thusly making their lives easier.
Just the simple nut and bolt that holds our lives together is a magical thing.
I remember, we used the old device. The device was kept secret by Chief and 2nd Engineer and test were carried out by Chief engineer or 2nd engineer along with Diesel Mechanic when the juniors were out of Engine room. However, when I became 2nd Engineer, I allowed all my engineers especially the Junior Engineers and 5th/4th Engineer to take measurements when ever the weather was calm. Those black sheep Chief and 2nd Engineers and Diesel Mechanics are now in grave or death beds.
Neat info. Why did they keep it secret? Were they afraid for their jobs?
@@rherman9085 They don't want that the juniors learn the use of the device/ trick of the trade. The owners should call them for their ships regularly. No other person are employed on that vessel
@@sohailnomani I kind of figured that. Hey thanks for the reply & the info. Though I am learning (for the fun of it), kind of cool things to hear about. Thank you!
Every trade has those type of guys.
”I know something you don’t know”...
Makes me more valuable.
@@benjurqunov yes. We called them Commodore 3rd Engineer ( they were in every rank ) who used to hide every tool from juniors. Who used to send juniors to search for tools when they were making some adjustment ( tools were in their own pockets) so that the juniors don't learn any technique.
It boggles my mind that you guys just have, like a 3/8 in?, valve directly into the combustion chamber.
That puts the scale of these engines even more into perspective.
I'm always looking forward to your more in depth technical videos, AFAIK no one else makes this sort of video.
Also maybe cylinder five needs a bit of a hug and some encouraging talk.
Surprising to me, too. Isn't there, like, an explosion in there?! I guess these huge engines work at much lower pressures than, say, a car engine?
That was very interesting! Especially liked the old ‘analogue’ tools using recording paper and the planimeter - never seen one before - I was wondering if you’d have to count little squares on the paper to get the area!
Yes you do and average all the halves and quarters
@@petermaddison4136 No, you use the planimeter -- it's a device for calculating areas.
And yet another great video! I never thought about how engine power output is measured on a cargo vessel. Thanks for the great class session, Chief.
Thanks Chief! As a Deck officer, I have participated in many, many performance tests and never really knew what was going on below.
Your videos are very informative, I really like watching them. Best regards from a Norwegian Marine Engineer 😊
Love your more technical videos like this one. Thanks for making such fantastic content!
As someone that has had to repair such instruments I appreciate the care the engine room tech is taking with the cable connectors. Those things are NOT cheap and unless you have spares? Not something you want broken while underway!
how often are the engine check calibrations done?
Once a month.
Dobson and Mcguinness indicator if I remember correctly from over 50 years ago. There was one on a single cylinder diesel engine at Guildford College of Technology. Bits of sting and paper allover the place but it worked. Probably before you were born chief. We tied a bit of string around the govenor, apprentices will be apprentices. It was on the second floor. Thank God we managed to cut the string in time or it would have been on the first floor.
Can you tell me
Do these motors run with a dry sump ?
@@charliepearce8767
Yes. Dry sump motors.
@@charliepearce8767No, the sump is part of the ships structure and underneath the engine. Oil pumps are large motor driven affairs located at the after end of the engine as ships tend to trim by tbe stern, so the oil is deepest there. Its still possible to loose suction on the oil pump if rolling badly, which will start to shut the engine down, but you roll the other way and oil pressure is restored. This can be reduced by adding more oil to the sump.
You have suction filters to protect the pumps and much finer discharge filters to protect the engine, much the same as a car engine. You also continuously centrifuge the oil through a purifier to remove water and solids, but usually water, due to condensation, leaks from water cooled pistons if still fitted. Any liner leaks usualy appear through the scavenge drains on two strokes.
To have a dry sump means the sump has to be higher than the engine and this has an effect on stability and more pumps.
The bottom of the crankcase is dry as you have to stand in it to carry out certain inspections and overhauls, but below the steel you are standing on will be the ME Lube oil sump. There are a couple of mesh covered drains into the sump from the bottom of the crankcase, one forward and one aft usualy.
@@hastuart9639
Thanks for the info.
The torque numbers are impressive! At ~509 radians per second and 6.762 MW, the engine has to exert almost 13.3 kNm of torque on its shaft! That is a *HUGE* torque! If a human wanted to create such a torque using an “imaginable” force, over a wrench 🔧 100 meters long (!) it would still take 133 N to get 13.3 kNm. (Such a wrench is hard to come by!) Interpreting the force of 133 N in a “pre-gravity” way: It would be like pushing against the Earth-based equivalent of 13.55 kg. To get the torque, the force would need to be directed around the circumference of a circle 100 m in radius. While it is imaginable for a human to exert the static *torque* alone (as long as the hypothetical 100-meter 🔧 wrench is provided), making the *power* would require moving 81 times every second around that circle. Which would be a speed of around 50.9 km/s. 😆 The Earth’s escape velocity is 11.19 km/s…
I wish my dad was still alive 😢. As merchant sailor & engineer during the late 1940s and early 1950s I think he would have found this interesting to watch.
Still have one of his textbooks from his days at the ship engineers school/course. It's thicker than a bible 🙂.
Good morning CHIEF,
A fire has erupted in the funnel of an occupied Carnival cruise ship while docked at Turks. This just occurred recently. What, in your opinion causes a raging funnel fire. I watched as the crew used on board fire lines, the water spray was at least 15 feet short of hitting the flaming funnel, no injuries reported at this time. Peace always.
Very good Chief. I enjoyed the details of the 'how to.'
Being far out to sea, is reason enough to know that your power plant will get you safely to the next port.
I never thought I would see one again or a planometer - thanks Chief.
Do any ships have torque-measuring couplings on the output shafts so that engine power can be calculated directly (and continuously)? This is frequently done on large stationary equipment on land.
Yes, there is. Arrangement of coils in two places along the shaft with a known distance. The twist of the shaft when turning will be measured and amount of twist determines the output in the value you prefer.
Made for continues running and as a fixed installation.
@@johanea Usually done on Navy ships, a bit over the top for Merch. Ships.
Yes its there. It works like a dynamometer / torsion . And gives the brake horse power or shaft power with ease
@@petermaddison4136 Wouldn’t say maybe over the top. However, you have other options to figure out your output by comparing Factory Acceptance Trail data with a time running the engine during a voyage.
It is a little bit more rough however since the calorific value of the fuel will be different along with external parameters such as ambient temp, atm. pressure and humidity compared with FAT trails.
Buuuuuut in 99% of cases or for troubleshooting it is good enough.
Fascinating. I was surprised at the apparently small difference between the compression pressure max. and the combustion pressure max. I would have expected a much higher differential. Then again the intake air is supercharged, so it’s already under more pressure than ambient. (I was a small engine mechanic, so this is the other side of the universe for me!)
I wonder what max pressure is at 120% power, since that graph showed it at 80% or 90% power.
That's a Diesel thing
The diff between min and max you see is normal for ICE, no matter the fuel.
Also note that the peak pressure occurs at around 20~25 degrees, that is around 30cm from TDC, while the pressure before combustion is at TDC.
#5 looked a little tired compared to the others.... lol
Very very interesting, excellent explanation on measuring engine performance, great to see the analogue instrument as well, brilliant.
Thanks for sharing.
Very nice, I enjoyed watching this, thank you! I've always been fascinated by marine engines, the bigger the better, and when I was in my teens I had a cross-section of a MAN marine engine poster on my wall, while my classmates had photos of girls in various states of undress!! 😅
Haha 😀 !
Hi from uk Chief MAKOiand crews👋👍 thanks for these on board activity and maintenance schedule routines 👌 really appreciate you taking time for us on board and thanks to for crews patience when they surely just want to get job done👍 it amazes me how times change but the technology stays the same its just advance thru computers instead of manual input👍 thanks for your time and be safe see you soon👍👋
Yes engine power and efficiency directly impact the biggest cost of running the ship, fuel use. You definitely want your engine to be running at the absolute best efficiency while at sea, so as to keep that fuel consumption down to the minimum.
Just imagine how much more critical that is in today’s insane world!
The Chief has been busy they got a new dishwasher on the ship. I just wish he'd post a video of it.
I'm surprised, a modern, digitally controlled engine does not have this kind of instrumentation (the cylinder pressure transducers, even direct torque sensors on the shaft,...) already installed permanently on them with all this monitoring happening continuously, so you still have to manually connect a separate meter on each cylinder to do this. I would expect such instrumentation should be way cheaper than letting a fault to cause more extensive damage because it gets undetected for up to a month. Plus there could be a fault presenting itself as an abnormality only under certain special condition (like the engine warming up or so), so here may slip undetected altogether...
Surprised me too, it's got less sensors on it than a 20yr old japanese car, in fact even my 1982 motorbike has a self diagnostic computer 🤔
At a large wastewater treatment plant we have several on line instruments, but we still perform a lot of manual tests on the rotating machinery,. This makes operators evaluate machinery performance by actually standing next to the machine, inspecting the installations, by listening and feeling...and keeps operators writing PAPER logs! At walk-around I very often assess the pumps or piping vibration by placing a coin to an appropriate location. It should stay there for a long time. We have a competition going on that one.
It is clear that you do not understand the operating conditions on these engines:
- sensors in the combustion chamber foul, and need periodical calibration leading to an extra job to be done when the engine is out of operation while this manual job is just a 1 hour job during running of the engine while in transit.
- these sensors are not cheap, i know of man b&w, who quoted such a permanently installed system, at approx 300000€ per engine for an 8 cyl marine diesel.
- most of the times, these engines run at a continuous load, meaning it is not really important if a fault is present at low power outputs, as long as the 'normal' operating parameters are OK. Thats how it works in practice. I know in theory its like 'yeh you have a misfire at 10% load on a cylinder because of a bad injector or fuel rack mismatch' but really i dont care as long as when the engine is at nominal load, the cylinder does its thing.
Greets,
A marine engineer.
@@redmarbos Indeed, I do not know about the details of these big commercial marine engines, that is why I asked. I was just making some extrapolations from my experience with way smaller machines, in order to trigger a bit more detailed response.
With the "defect presenting only at certain conditions" I did not actually mean a defect that is stable and affecting just those conditions, but a defect/fault which uses to end up in quite expensive carnage (e.g. when a valve breaks into pieces and these falls into cylinder, getting jammed between the piston and the head), but which in their initial stages cause shifts observable only in those abnormal conditions (e.g. a crack started in the valve, causing initially just a small leak, visible only during low rpm when there is plenty of time to lose enough pressure to show on the meter; then just replacing the valve will prevent the collision carnage from happening).
But as I said, I do not know any details about real world operation, so e.g. how frequent are such defects, or so.
@@annaplojharova1400 ah okay, now it is clear. These failures very rarely happen out of nowhere. Marine diesel engines are built on a different spec than consumer grade engines. When a cylinder head reaches a certain amount of running hours, it will be replaced, and sent to a service shop where they will inspect and restore it to its new-like state. This is not something that is regularly done on consumer grade engines as far as i know, which in turn leads to sometimes catastrophic failures in these engines.
Measuring the area of a drawn line?
Just do what chemists do, cut out the graph and weigh the piece of paper. You have its GSM and its mass, multiply the two and then multiply by the scale of the graph and you have the volume between the curves.
Very clever 😀 ! That's a nice easy cheat 🙂 !
You are brilliant Sir.
Hope I will get a job under you/ like you sir!💓
Missing your updates. I check this site several times a week. Hope to hear from you soon. USN--MM3 Qualified 1200 # steam and auxiliaries and carry a MN steam engineer's license. It so cool to see the advances in engineering since I steamed the open seas, years ago.
thank you so much chief for this very informative video you shared.❤️
Gosh, Chief, this brought back memories of when I taught engine theory at an aircraft mechanics school. We used PLANK as our formula. This was for radial aircraft engines as used during WWII. I’m 80 years old now so,that was a long time ago. Great explanation! Thanks, Chief
That was a fascinating video. Ships and physics.
Great informative video, its amazing how much quicker and more accurate the computer makes the measurement.
That is cool! A tap right into the cylinder.
Sir ask lng po, As fresh bsmare graduate makakatulong ba sa pag apply mo bilang engine cadet sa int. ship, if may SMAW at Electrical nc II ka?
Another great tutorial Chief. My question is, could the instrumentation be installed permanently so as to give constant updates?
Well, Mazda does it, cylinder pressure transducer for each cylinder in its Skyactive X engine (HCCI technology, so it needs them to calculate ignition timing and etc...). Greetings from Costa Rica.
Very expensive.. like 300k uk pounds per cyclinder.. not worth it. As long as the results are within parameters... And these engines are regularly maintained, checked and even overhauled while at sea so a catastrophic failure is very rare if you have a very professional crew like majority of huge cargo ships.
Chief, can you do a film on Engine Room fire suppression systems, ie halon/CO2 systems, high pressure water fog systems?
Thanks
Thank you for posting videos Chief Makoi I've enjoyed every interesting informative video.
Interesting stuff. I wonder if the newest ships are using full electronic engine management? If so you would have (the ability at least) of a real time display of all the data and calculations. You would also have the ability to tune for maximum effeciency based on condition and do automatic fuel change overs when required. (it could even hook to the GPS to indicate or automate the change as you are approaching a fuel change zone. Thanks for the tech look, These videos are great for those in land based industrial concerns, it's interesting to see how ship systems differ from land based ones. Calm seas,
This must be a rather small ship sailing on 9,000 HP even if this shows at 85% of full ahead rpm.
By comparison big tankers have engines which will produce power upwards of 70,000 HP.
watching this tells me that you can probably know all the equations and calculations off the top of your head. very impressive indeed.
In old money, it was P.L.A.N/ 33,000 but with metrication and the right units the 33,000 was removed from the equation. 33,000 was foot pounds in a Horse Power. Note this is Indicated Horse power IHP, the actual raw power produced in each cylinder. At the propellor shaft you have shaft horse power which takes into consideration all the frictional losses by the time it gets there.
You can also work out the Brake Thermal Efficiency which starts with Calorific Value of the fuel burnt, IHP then you have all the losses, friction, heat lost to cooling water, exhaust gas, lube oil etc. Some of these losses are recouped via the turbo charger providing scavenge air pressure, waste heat boilers to produce steam for domestic and fuel heating but even on large ships they produce enough exhaust gas to produce steam to drive a turbo alternator for electrical power supplies. Cylinder Cooling water is used in a vacuum evaporator to boil sea water at approximately 60°C to produce distilled water for domestic use and ER use. Apart from a small vacuum pump and freshwater discharge pump very little power is used to,produce the fresh water.
1127kw...
*Me* "Wow that's a ton of power, ho-"
*Makoi* "Per cylinder"
*Me* "Wut."
You Always Have The Coolest Videos Chief...I always look forward to them...!!!
Such wonderful progress. Never had such equipment in my seagoing days. Had to use the mechanical indicator-awful.
Chief ask ko lang po kung mahirap ba or bawal makasakay ng barko kapag may bali or fracture? thankyou po
Very informative video, I love to learn these type of details about ships, I am not remotely to ships.
Couple questions:
Why the engine does not have a permanent pressure sensor on each cylinder? a 1000bar sensor is pretty cheap, even to work at the high temperature the engine head has, ie no tube required.
Why the connecting sensor port does not have a cap? or was not shown for simplicity?
What is the grey box between the indicator cock and the cylinder?
I come from the time of the Dobbie Mcinnes manual Indicator gear, wax papers and french chalk on the fingers to stop greasy smudges on the papers and planimeters. We didn't mess about with gloves for any job especially watchkeeping, your hands were the temperature and vibration sensors as you did the rounds of watchkeeping.
No safety hats required as everything was clear of your head. Ear defenders came in later with turbo charged engines, yet you still had noise which is why most of our hearing is failing after retirement.
I sailed on a couple of ships with no turbo chargers. The early Doxfords had an engine driven scavenge pump , like a large compressor valve that moved in a cylinder. Common rail fuel system but mechanical fuel valves, not CAV types working on pressure to open them or electro hydraulics like today., but very fuel efficient engines .
Bank Lineships had a lot of Doxfords originally
12,000 ton ship
12 tons of fuel per day
12 knots perhaps.
We had several ships with Doxfords, twin screw, 5 or 6 cylinder, 6/7 hatch reefer ships, all cargo break bulk, hand loaded, be it general outward bound or frozen lamb, beef homeward bound. Weeks in port during cargo operations which gave us engineers time to carry out Lloyds surveys of all machinery , removing pistons, liners , crankcase bearings, preparing the donkey boilers for their yearly survey, being a fired pressure vessel.
There was very little work done by shore contactors. Outward bound as we were carrying general cargo a generator may have had an cylinder head change, or even piston and liner removal, calibration of liners, piston, gudgeon pins. Other maintenance included fluid and filter changes, cooler cleaning, fuel valve changes, so everything was on top line ready for the fridge cargo when more power would be needed especially going through the tropics.
In ten years at sea I never once experienced any problems when changing over from MDO to HFO or the reverse and very few unexpected blackouts.
I'm surprised cylinder pressure isn't monitored at all times. Looking at PV diagrams on a log-log scale can provide significant information of a cylinders health, at a glance.
single cylinder exhaust gas temperature is sufficient for indicating general cylinder health. I could imagine that the pressure transducer isn't particularly heat resistant.
I had the same thought. Given that this engine is fully computer controlled with both exhaust valve and injection under computer control, it could be used to tune the engine.
I am surprised with all the electronics in engines that part isn't automated I guess in the next generation of ships that will be coming next
Excellent videos on maritime engineering. Can you upload some videos from basics intermediate and difficult level of engineering.
TEXAS Gulf of Mexico.
Holy shit, 1MW for ONE cylinder!! That is insane, never thought it was that much.
Super Hitech na talaga ngayon kasi noon Mano Mano ang performance test ng main engine at generator
Nice explanation and perfect narration chieff. 👍👍🙏🙏🙏
This is cool stuff.
Measuring cylinder pressure and calculating power from the data gives Indicated Power, not Brake Power.
To measure Brake Power, there would need to be a torquemeter on the prop shaft and a measurement of engine speed.
Good day Sir, thanks for your educative videos, you're doing a wonderful job. Please, I'll need some advice regarding further studies. I'm currently a 4E with BSc Marine Engineering for University Of Cebu. I'd like to go for a masters degree program in Europe/America, what program/course would you suggest I go for. Thank you sir
Thanks a lot, Chief. This content is very helpful. Need more discussion of purpose of the angle encoder connection, Frequency divider box & junction box.
I have gotten to run some smaller scale ancient ship diesel engines in a museum setting, and though many years have passed, and the scale is far different, they really are very similar!
I would rather use the digital gauge, but I love the fiddly old gauge! Lol
But the analog gauge is mechanics you can mend at sea. If a digital pressure sensor fails, that's it, and some sealed cables are close to non-repairable. Have the old backup, and someone young who knows how to use it, and you can measure when you have a problem (which will be when the superior digital stuff decides to misbehave!)
Спасибо, многое подчеркнул для себя как 3й механик!
i am confuse in calculating indicated power of engine, because mostly all of them using mean effective pressure instead of mean indicated pressure.
indicated power PI = Pi x LAN
effective power PE = Pe x LAN
mean effective pressure Pe = Pi - friction losses
mean indicated pressure Pi = area of diagram (power card) / lenght of diagram x spring constant
now I dont know what is correct now. please help sir.
Hi, i want to discuss why our vessel pmax decrease from 9mpa to 8mpa after we change nozzle injector 9 hole to 8 hole? We stick to manual book for injector pressure adjustment. We use mfo 180cst.
Right, I know DP talks ft/lb of torque and it is true that 1 HP = 33,000ft/lbs per minute. I was surprised at the low HP value when I see cruise ships talk numbers like 10X that for propulsion. and at least that number for bow thrusters.
I notice yout name MAKOi, you have the small "i" to highlight the "MAKO"? But you also have a KOI... your name is really fishy.
MAN - Back when, they made a very nice line of u-boat engines as well. Top-notch German quality.
Excuse me, please: is there any Chance in Hell to See this Video without having 3 Adverts before it? F***in greedy
Chief Makoi, how much Naval Military experience can be transfered to counted for converting over to Merchamt Marine
153624 sounds so different at 81 rpm. (I would subscribe if you didn't ask for money do much)
I have seen where eddy currents are used on an output shaft as a load to find load ratings such as these, Of course for that kind of HP it would take one huge piece of machinery to get down somewhere in the shaft alley for this to be done.
I find it hard to believe that an engine with this huge bore/stroke and slow RPM's is able to burn the fuel completely, Even fast running engines running number 2 can't burn off the things that some governmental agencies scream about. Is there any type of re-burning circuit implemented in this configuration for exhaust hydrocarbons? Thanks very much.
Superb chief. Another fascinating video.
Excellent video Chief! It's worth mentioning that when coordinating with the bridge for the test, request that they turn off the fire detection loop in the ER. Failure to do so will insure that after a couple of shots out of the open indicator cocks the fire alarm will sound and that anybody trying to sleep will be scrambling out of their rack and heading for their muster station 🤣
Voice of experience? 🤔😉
@@McTroyd Yup 😁
Did you change your microphone or method of recording? It is significantly muddier. Otherwise, cool video.
oh so MAN _can_ make good software when ships are involved? well that makes me feel much better when i'm torturing myself with the automotive diag software >.
Hey Boss..ahh..Cheif...I was telling a channel from "dangerous catch" Alaskan sea crab...yeah you know the one.... they can put heating elements in the rails and under the deck and one guy says "that would take too much power" as though he was going to run it off his 4 cyclinder car... the video was of how a $3Million boat accumulated ice and started listing into the side of the wind and when they turned into the wind to head to land and that little bit the wind was holding them upright stopped and it capsized.... it makes sence that the side the wind was on accumulated the ice, and the wind pushed it upright...
need more contents such as maneuvering system ( with line diagram) of MAN B&W MC-C engine. thank u once again
Sir i am female my question is if theres a chance to be come a marine engineer /chief engineer someday? I'm 16y.o right now but i really really want to be sa marine engineer 😭😭 im very attracted in this kind of work.. Can you give me some advice?
I'm just thinking a shaft that huge at 81rpm... Woof that's moving.
I'll keep my med math thanks. Thank you for keeping the world moving Chief!
How are you Chief, missing your educational videos?
With sensors being very cheap nowadays, why would all of this not be incorporated into the engine, in order to monitor everything continously?
Also, it seems cylinder #5 is out of spec? What do you guys do in those cases?
Nothing new here, except for the electronics, as they used the same technique to measure the performance of steam locomotives back in the 1800's. Still interesting to see it in action.
I can see how the modern electronic tool is more accurate, the graph from the old mechanical indicator is very small and looks difficult to trace with a planimeter.
It seems the displays are running an old version of windows, is this safe? Are there any security concerns with the computers? Thanks.
I learn a lot with yours videos. Thanks for all of this. When i finish my studies and will be 3 officer engenier i will send you a big donation.
As someone from the Old days I can only say that I wish we had a computer driven indicator!.
The paper method looks very steampunk-ish ... Maybe there can be a toy or video game designed around these principles
ok. that is impressive!
the method used is so straightforward. also impressive as the numbers don't lie.
at tested rpm though i wonder of increases in engine speed will change the rated output in actuality due to the time decrease involved in completing each combustion cycle. twisted minds want to know :-). i find these vids very informative and they do tend to set my mind to wander in regards to the interactions of the equipment and personnel onboard.
Chief, I noticed that the test ports are threaded (6:20) and are ?normally bare? . I have always thought that they should be capped/some sort of covering on them to protect the threads. I am assuming this is done in the engineering world to protect the threads and the crew who happen to "stroll" on by in the performance of their duties . and am I wrong that you did remove them pre video production just to speed up the process of the testing.
Thanks for showing how even in something like sailing. Advanced mathematics is needed.
81rpm I just can't get over that what is idle 10 rpm crazy how's it stay running
Pretty cool Chief. There's a lot to keep track of on board.
Always enjoy your videos Chief. Thank you.
do u think a engine say a v12 supercar engine tuned to 5000hp would even turn the shaft to main propeller? i dont think so when i see this huge engine with pistons like barrels :D
Thank you for the awesome education and incredible video!
Hey chief mac , ever work with reciprocating steam engines ? The indicator mechanisms are similar. ⚓
Cylinder 5 is looking like it is slacking! When does a cylinder cross the threshold for needing PMI?
Great explanation. I loved seeing the old school and modern way of figuring this out.
Good day, Chief! May fair weather and calm seas bless your journeys!
What to do if Pcom is higher?
Pmax and Pi are within limit but the Pcom for no 1 unit is 5.8 bar higher than mean Pcom.
I welded at sparrows point MD,on a vost Alpine,ship, people don't often consider the ship bowe is constructed up side down,boiler shop,