Cannondale Design Fail
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- Опубліковано 7 лип 2024
- Another unbelievable design, this time from Cannondale.
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Astounding these companies are charging $8-10k for engineering that won't pass QC on Lego toys.
ExDuris, the frames cost 200$ Taiwan with 50$ logistics. Rest is markup. Time, Look, Sarto, Enve, Daccordi are the real gucci superlative built, be it not necessarily the latest computational r&d. but it is a scam that will end once china takes over taiwan..
To be fair to Lego, they do take design and QC quite seriously (unlike some of these jokers in the bike industry).
@@firstname7780 You don't get 200$ carbon frames from Taiwan lol. Taiwanese stuff ain't cheap. Try 2x China price, so at least 1000$
That's why you usually get a lifetime warranty these days included
@@firstname7780 you’re wrong 😑
Ahh, yes, the self-disassembling frame design. How efficient.
A small metal axe built into a carbon bike? What a nice feature.
A blade-type design: It's Aero!
Metal for added durability.
I don't understand your comment. There's bound to be metal components molded in with the carbon.
Observation of the day ahaha! 😂
planned obsolescence... and quick at it
I like watching you stand there all dumbfounded in disbelief man! I’m gonna watch that cervelo video again and get another good laugh. I really appreciate the honest and technical perspective, people are buying and riding these things with their lives on em.
My favourite horror movie channel! Can’t thank you enough for all you’re doing Raoul. Everyone involved with bicycles absolutely must watch all your videos. We pour tons of money into these things especially the upmarket stuff so the least we can expect is an acceptable level of safety and durability but as you’ve so ably demonstrated in many if not most cases that’s just expecting too much. Our lives are on the line here! Can’t sue anyone when you’re dead.
Great video after a long time, great to see you again.
Fascinating. In order to solve a problem created by a feature that has no benefit they created a solution that does damage to the product. Way to go Cannondale!
I have got this frame and this is precisely what happened to it. I had to spend some 500 euros for the repair. Something tells me that Cannondale should pay me that back.
Well, the owner's manual clearly states: "NOTICE Do not force the steering past the stop points. If the front end steering of the bikes is over-loaded (due to e.g. a handlebar strike, a crash, etc.) damage to the frame, fork or pin may result. This type of damage is not covered by the limited warranty." I swear, i will never ever buy a Cannondale. They knew this was shit design from the beginning.
I had the same problem… 500 euro to replace the frame. Maybe we can do a class action against cannondale.
I learn from my mistakes. I repeat them perfectly over and over again.
Hi Raoul, thanks for pointing these failures out! I quite like the shorter format, I admit i am sometimes put off by the lengths of your videos. All the best!
Another great work from you mister !!! Keep us all informed about all the crap the major brands are doing reagarding their products.
Always great to see a new clip from you! Get well soon!
Welcome back! Would love to see a follow up on the superstrata bike, a lot more details have come out about it
Thanks, I haven't looked at that lately, I will check it out.
I like your video! Very good information. Please keep it up you are helping a lot of people to understand things we don’t see easily and it’s important for us to know.
So basically every time the bike's bars are accidentally hyper extended, the frame is destroyed. I wonder how many frames the EF Education team has gone through?
The mechanics may have eliminated the metal stop.
@@glennoc8585 Definitely possible. No doubt I would be taking a Dremel to the metal tab if I owned one of these.
@@cup_and_cone the stop is there to prevent the internal cable routing through steerer tube from damage or pull out....hydraulic pipes.. 😬
@@rp6760 Just.. do them longer.
@@cup_and_cone why not? Can always just use a file I suppose....
Why do I laugh when Ralph Luescher says " genius designer"??? Thank you!! Rgr
Reflecting after re-visiting your previous vids going back to 2019 . Seems key industry 'leading' companies repeatedly demonstrate apparent inability to conceive and produce adequate steerer and forks. No lessons learnt, basic errors reproduced through "less than ideal" design as you point out with exemplary diplomacy, calmness, detail, patience. You do tremendous public service for cycling. Keep heart - ALL cyclists need to see your work. 👏👏👏. Info a potential lifesaver. Thank you.
Just astounding that someone approved that design feature for production
Let me guess.... A junior product engineer fresh out of college who doesn't mind the poor salary because they landed a dream job working in the bike industry.
@@cup_and_cone that's who would have designed it, maybe. A senior engineer approved it, then QC approved it, then the manufacturer didn't catch it. It's a massive fuck up.
Tell me how many people who buy these bikes wouldn't screw their own customers.
It's funny how most people get offended when they're taken advantage of while participating in the same type of operations in their own line of work.
@@sylvainmichaud2262 you're engaging in a logical fallacy known as false equivalence. Even if you weren't, you make no point in what you said.
@@valiantabello
All these circumlocution and pseudo reasoning to come up with no argument to prove me wrong ?
You really want to be perceived like an intellectual but because of the lack of arguments you come across like someone who's simply saying in an elegant manner : "you're full of BS !"
It has no value.
I was looking at these think I'll AVOID now 😂 worrying that big brands get things soooo wrong.
Glad to see you are well. Have been starting to worry...
Another excellent video. Get well soon!
Is the same one who designed bb30?
What a genius!!!
I remember I was buying my first serious road bike during covid. It was really hard to find a 56cm race bike at the time because of demand shock. Cannandale called me back and said they had the 2021 supersix evo ready if I wanted one for some ridiculous price. I declined and then got called by giant for the 2021 tcr Sl0. Couldn't be happier.
Another great segment Mr. T! thank you
Good to see you again
Inner cable routing was probably the reason why "designer" wanted to limit fork turn. Buy simple designs and reliable bikes brand LOOK or TIME.
Both those brands make fantastic bikes. They may not be the most aero but the build quality is fantastic and second to none really.
Very informative as usual. Thank you.
Thanks for a great insight Raoul,just shows that big names are no guarantee that you will get a proper bike....Hambini reviewed the Trifox x10 aero frame at 630 usd and found it to be almost perfect.I have bought one and its unbelievable quality.
Another highly informative video. Thank you.
Just a note from an engineer's perspective: if two parts are going to collide, all other things equal, I'd tend to design the cheaper of the two fail first.
And the one that's less likely to cause a fatal accident
This looks like something I would design.
I feel like you and hambini should do a collaboration roasting for designs like this one and the s5
Hmm no. Hambini is a 2nd grade aerodynamics engineer and a huge man-child. He would bring Luescher into disrepute with his immature personal attacks and total lack of objectivity.
@@plantfuelled8912 agreed. A collab with PeakTorque would be a much better option
Cannondale used to make great bikes. Now they make overpriced junk. Other than to resell, I would not take one if you gave it to me. A sad end for what was once a great "made in America" (and it really was) brand. Great video! Thanks for the update.
Such a shame...
It is rather unfortunate Buddy. I’ve owned a couple of Cannondale’s, they were older models though back when they were great bikes.
I WANT HAMBINI'S UNCENSORED DIAGNOSIS ON THIS ONE PLEASE....
we should get feedback from the Cannondale
Why? They don’t care as they already got a fool’s money. Lol.
The only feedback that matters: Don't make stupid designs like that !
I'll bet its not even an engineer that has done it, but a CAD designer, with now real knowledge of materials.
But I've seen engineers produce lots of sloppy and idiotic designs as well, so...
... get the* feedback from * Cannondale.*
Quick reflexion on a different minding!
Love the idea about that bike.
I love it when you're at a loss for words. I feel so sorry for anyone who bought one of these bikes
Thank you Luescher, after watching your video I have to return the bike to the shop and claim a warranty, I have no idea what's going on with my frame and the fork has a chip on it as I just started my journey on the bike..appreciate you!🙏
What were the results of the claim?
@@sruo42 they give me current fork.
It would be interesting to see survey results as to the different ways manufacturers secure a fork from swinging too far.
The current Trek Knock Block design is pretty good. Even thigh it requires a couple extra parts, they're all replaceable and metal. They even have a retrofit, so you can use aftermarket stems. I may not like the application on mtb, but they executed it well.
It looks like there is plenty of room to put a large pin on the back side of the crown, avoiding the traffic jam at the front where I'm assuming the fork hose is going. The carbon on the frame would be pretty thick there too.
Watched it today and it made me happy about my decision to return my supersix yesterday. Every time I took it in and out of the apartment , in and out of the elevator, it bumps into that little axe a little. Dodge a bullet here.
Ya you did. Mine broke randomly with very little pressure applied to it.
@@andrewsbenn feel sorry for you... Sad that the bike is still fast and comfortable.. Too bad this feature ruins it.
That’s a pretty bad design of a bike frame when they charge so much. I bet they don’t even cover that under warranty.
Very informative. Thank you.
Good to see you!
This sort of thing is why I've never gone through with buying a new carbon bike despite a lot of temptation.
I have a 2019 and bought it shortly before the new one was released. I was a little disappointed that I didn't wait a little longer. Seeing this issue (and the frame you are showing isn't an isolated incident) makes me glad I have the one I do. Even if it does have a QR on the rear with disk brakes. It isn't a factor at all. Just made buying new wheels a little more complicated.
Wheel upgrades are the reason why I hate disc brake road bikes with open dropouts. Disc brakes and closed dropouts go together.
Presumably the stop is just to prevent the internally routed cables from being damaged if the handlebars are rotated too far?! Crazy engineering, surely there must be a more elegant design than this? If it's not possible to design a much better steerer stop, then surely you shouldn't internally route your cables! Nicely presented Raoul - keep this stuff coming and also get well soon.
Yeah that is likely the only reason they bothered to put a stop in the first place.
That’s stupid. Just make it so your hoses are long enough to rotate both ways how they used to….
@
Luescher Teknik If you can choose one Race and one Endurance geometry frame to yourself, what will you choose. It would be interesting to see some list what you can recommend and what should avoid :)
Just checked my 2020 SS Evo. Alas, I have the same kind of damage - the metal blade has eaten a few millimetres into the carbon ramps on both sides of the head tube, and there is early delamination/bulging on of the lower end of the right head tube side.
The bike was never crashed, just ridden normally for a year. The only reason I can think of is that I regularly carry my bike up the stairwell to my apartment, and the limiter engages in these occasions regularly (but without high forces, at least so I thought, being unaware of the metal blade design/self-destruction mechanism).
I am appalled that there is no recall from Cannondale yet. Seems like they want to brush it under the carpet - the 2021 model apparently has a metal reinforcement in that area. Conveniently, there's an addendum to the user manual stating that specifically this damage is excluded from the limited warranty.
@Raoul - do you think this is cosmetic or structural, i.e. can I still ride my bike or is this now an expensive piece of junk?
A solution that is almost worst than the problem it's supposed to solve.
Engineering at its best.
That line was well good!
What problem is it suposse to solve lol
@@oreocarlton3343
Have you been drinking touch much cheap Lumbrosko wine lately ?
@@oreocarlton3343 internal cables I think
@@crack0n ah yes, it would snap them, still horrible design
Thanks for pointing this out
After seeing things like this and having a brand new Orbea frame crack after only two weeks of gentle riding, I'm very hesitant to buy another carbon bike. It's a great material but so many CO panties don't seem up to engineering and quality control requirements.
buy Giant
This is a shocker Raoul! I may be drawing a long bow here but...I'm a "risk guy" and I think about these things... let's say your bike falls over at a cafe (known to happen), then try to catch it but you grab the handle bar which torques and the bike lays down wheel up....causing head tube delamination you didn't know you just caused....*shudders*
and there you are riding home from a group ride.
"butt up..." nah, can't be "against..." no way they did it "the carbon" OH THAT PAIN!
Great video, and great you are back.
I think its a good idea not to give up just yet on your trusty alluminum frame , But i do however have a carbon frame bike ;)
@Luescher Teknik would this "metal spike" bump stop fork design be on the Cannondale Synapse frame?
Does anyone know if this problem also applies to their aluminium frames but carbon fork? Got a Topstone 1 on order..
Já me aconteceu 2x este problema e a cannondale, executou a troca do quadro. Mas é lamentável ser tão frágil!
Would you consider that a catastrophic failure? Or could it end in one?
I presume the circleshaped indent you see behind the gouge is from the outer race of the headset bearing, at 3.10?? Great manufacturing, Cannondale.. Rgr
You saved me a lot of money thanks for pointing out
Raoul 👍 your sense of palpable disbelief shared. Now's the opportunity for Cannondale to show their commercial integrity and cease production of this ill considered design and to recall those already sold. Designing potential problems into a critical steering component ........ USA liability lawyers will no doubt be rubbing their hands with glee. Over to Cannondale . Lets watch this space.🤨
There's a lot to be said for picking up what turns out not to be a bad design from the previous generation once it's not brand new anymore
Do they just have this type of design in there supersix evo or is it the same design In the systemsix and the topstone carbon as well?
Man we all missed your expertise! Just wanted to check if you received my Bottecchia EMME 2?
Thanks, I sent an email when it arrived, didn't you receive it?
@@LuescherTeknik Ah sorry, must of missed it, as long as it is there, there was a bit of confusion this end sending from my local bike shop. Also heard you are involved wth Bastion bikes, would love to see some content on your involvement and why these bikes are special? Cheers
You could expand on the video what happens to these frames? I cannot recall you mentioning it on the Cervelo video.
Thx for the video. I had the same issue with the frame while having a small accident - luckily the frame was replaced by cannondale. But as you said, the design is really crappy and made to fail hard..
Hi! I have the same problem at the moment. How did you contact cannondale to replace the frame? Did they do it readily or did you have to push them?
Thanks for a short feedback!
Cannondale have a great track record of recalling road forks... seeing the thumbnail of you holding a fork with the title of "Cannondale" just made me think it's Crack'n'fail doing their finest work once again.
So what action do you or can you take if you own a Cannondale SSE?
That's beyond stupid, really. I think it's a bad idea to begin with to design a bike frame in a way so that steering travel is limited. Because even if it was reinforced down there at the headtube with metal inserts, a crash might still be too much for it. Admittedly, your handlebar can also damage your top tube in a crash, but the surface area there is usually much greater and your handlebar is most likely wrapped in soft bar tape.
One issue with this is they have hoses going through that area, so if travel is not limited it could pinch or cut the hoses. But then they may have been better off reinforcing the hose and using that as a travel limit instead.
Pro teams go through a TON of frames... at least 10 per rider (not counting TT bikes). That is a pretty big "carbon footprint". But no one seems to care. Think about how it would help the development of the product if the teams were limited in how many frames they could use and bike manufacturers were forced to make a durable product... and it would be better for the plant too.
I really wonder how much these frames cost to make and if the teams are getting the frames "at cost". The price to the manufacture, which is based almost totally on outsourced labor, has got to be pretty low.
@@SurpriseMeJT i would assume the pro teams get them (and everything else) for free, and then pass along the cost to the consumer.
the sport, at the professional level, is nothing more than advertising and marketing.
if the bicycle industry received 1/1000th of what the automotive industry received in corporate welfare, a Pinnarelo F12 with Enve and Super Record EPS would cost $49.99
@@SurpriseMeJT Bike makers PAY teams to ride their product... the teams do not buy frames. The cost for a manufacturer like Trek, Cdale or Specialized to make a frame is $150 for a low end frame to about $700 for a top end frame. The real costs of selling high end carbon frames is distribution and marketing, not manufacturing.
Is this something I should be worry about as an owner of a 2019 Cannondale aluminium Synapse bike? I understand this unfortunate design only applies to carbon frames with internal routing, is that correct?
Just goes to show, dont believe the Hype of these big brand elite cycling companies.... Awesome awesome video Raoul!
I'm starting to believe that the only frame brands that have their act together are Giant, Time and Look.
Specialized do okay... have you seen the Look tear down? 👀
Exactly what happened to my 4mth old supersix evo. Except mine went way past the stops, completely cracking the head tube and destroyed the fork in the process as well. Been an avid Cannondale fan for a long long time, with 8x bike in so far. Won’t be buying any more of their newer designs frames that for sure.
I've had a couple of these frames (I do some work for a LBS, and I have had the opportunity to own a couple), and I've found the best fix is to Dremel/sand off the metal pin, so that it no longer makes contact with the frame. What ends up happening instead is that extra stress is put on the brake line, which is less than ideal. I've come to thee realization though, that replacing the front brake line is a hell of a lot more simple and cost-effective over replacing the frame every time you have delamination/damage. I can't take credit for this idea, as it was told to me by someone that works for EF-Nippo, and that one of the riders requested to have this mod done, as the angle at which it currently stops is not a lot for very tight, low-speed turns.
Also.. hope you feel better...
Thanks, yes I am.
Would be really interresting to investigate how many money those companies use on R&D, marketing, legal work (patents, fighting off dissatified costumers..., and more...), and what is just clean profits to the board and shareholders.
My bet is, that R&D gets the least amount of money.
Most my cycling buddies who experience broken frames and forks rode Cannondales. The second worst are Cervelos.
Both owned by Dorel
And then you have Monza Imports here in Australia to deal with who will try any excuse under the sun to try avoid warranty on Cannondale. You can’t even get hold of Dorel so if Monza decide not to replace frames, you stuffed.
Marketing team have louder voice than the engineering in the meeting room.
And people laughed at me for getting a Sava carbon bike which uses an older properly designed Giant frame lol
First time I built one of those I spotted that and predicted it doing just that. Kinda nice to be vindicated 🙈
Carbon. Bikes frames 10 years ago were built correctly now there just junk and QC departments need to wake up !!
Great video this will I’m sure get back to cannondale
You, Peak Torque and Hambini have exploded the myth that there is design expertise in the bike industry. Significant design flaws are repeated and are often dangerous eg carbon clinchers. Indeed so serious that done form of set of safety standard seems way overdue, quite apart from the fact that people are paying a fortune for these products.
OMG, this is even worse than that Cervelo S5 design problem. I liked the look of those SuperSix Evos, but never knew or suspected what hid in the head tube. 🧟♂️
Self destruct mode engaged 🪤
Even if viewers point out something about your videos, that you secretly may fear to be true, it is still no reason to change anything. And definitely not a reason to be apologetic about it.
If I had to say something, it is: You do how and what feels best to you, we are coming for the content.
Do you know those other Brand that uses a better design to limit the travel of the steerer tube? If yes, it will be nice to see the correct way they design.
Oof, the super six gets the Luescher slow death of a thousand cuts! scrubbing that one off my shopping list then!
I know someone who just had their frameset replaced and regularly see these issues coming up.
Did Cannondale cover that replacement?
@@andrewsbenn His was a 105 equipped model. They shipped him an Ultegra model with carbon wheels. So yeah, they took great care of him.
What's the video CC?
Since mine is damaged in the same way, I'm wondering if this is a repairable condition? I've been toying with taking it to a carbon repair shop in New Jersey to see what they say. But it's a pretty big hassle because of the distance involved. Also, it seems pretty complicated because of the bearing race being right there.
I'd say: not worth repairing. I'd ask my money back, that is a design/manufacture flaw. The fault is a long crack in one of the highest loaded areas of the bike, and there's quite a bit of complicated geometry. And the crack is above other thicker laminate, which may also be damaged. To repair that properly, you would probably have to sand off a huge area of plies around it, as to practically rebuild the headtube.And frankly, I wouldn't want to ride that thing again. This may crack without you noticing, and fail while you're on it.
@Clarion15090 What did you end up doing mine broke yesterday in the same spot.
@@andrewsbenn I'm really sorry to hear that. I didn't do anything with it yet. It's hooked up to an indoor trainer. I may eventually take it to a carbon repair shop and see what they say. It's just a big hassle to deal with. Plus it has to be a very tricky (if even possible) repair because it's cracked right at the lower headset bearing. That's why I haven't done anything with it.
The driver's insurance company treated my really well in totaling the bike out and letting me keep it. I was able to replace it with a brand new 2019 Supersix Dura Ace Di2 with what they gave me. I'm not unhappy about how things turned out for me personally. But I wouldn't buy another 2020 or 2021 Supersix because of the steering limit design.
Good luck with yours. Please post back and let us know how you make out.
I like cannondale a lot but I'll have to think about it now. What bikes would you actually recommend?
As long as a bike doesn't have bad designs like this one, any reputable brand would do.
Or better yet, pick a bike with traditional internal routing (internal routing starts from the top and down tube instead of the top of the head tube), like the Giant TCR Advanced.
I bought this same bike last year not knowing this, sadly,, any suggestion to limit the problem and keeping this problem under control as a customer?
Sell it on the used market and buy something else.
Modern profit before people mentality in the bike industry,in keeping with Corporate mind set! I remember buying my first Cannondale MTB in the mid 80’s when they were made in the USA....before money men took over.
Watching his videos I wonder if there's any bike worth buying... he should go into building bikes perhaps. Though it might be expensive :)
Great to see you back Raul!
But you are not making friends with the "designers" of bike industry 😄
Thanks, but I already have enough friends!
Ok…First, great to see you Raoul, sorry you are feeling poorly. Your delivery/timing of “Genius Designer” and “Metal Blade” …LMFAO within the first 1:30. Had to put my phone down before I dropped it. Feel better! Keep educating us. 👨🎓 Clearly a few of the “Genius Designers” education is “Less than Ideal”. 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks, glad you had a laugh.
Which brand tends to have the best quality?
I believe I see the reason why it is there ( internal cable routing ) and it should stop from pulling cables too much ? Hope they will improve this design
Yes - it’s no excuse but this design is driven by consumer demand for fully internal cables. I think most of us reckon that a super ‘clean cockpit’ looks pretty smart, so if Brand A delivers this ‘solution in search of a problem’ which gets turned up to 11 with massively over-hyped marketing and the consumer votes with their wallet then Brands B, C & D are all kicking their designers and engineers to deliver an equivalent product, just 15% stiffer with 8% less drag and 12% more compliant! Now! 🤣🤥🤑