Greetings from South Australia. Thanks for another excellent video, Dave. I like your no-BS way of explaining things in your videos. I hope you have a nice day.
People are getting charged for their Excess Solar because the Electricity Suppliers and Governments aren't spending enough on Batteries. There needs to be a Decentralisation plan where Suburbs get Container sized Batteries to soak up their daily output and get it back at night. Which would make prices very low.
mate google search "battery storage map australia", it's been going absolutely nuts, the amount of taxes we are spending on them must be ridiculous and the vast majority of it isn't even LFP but NCM which is far more expensive, especially when the government locked in the contracts probably years ago
@keithwilson1554 I used to think the same until I realised that the grid needs cash flow. Most electricity is dirt cheap. Feedin 5cents kWh Grid supply 50cents kWh So, if you can think how the grid can keep its cash flow, you might have the grid supporting the transition to renewables. The $TRILLIONs grid business helping.
Great episode, Steve. I have a pw2, 6.6kw solar system. Got battery through agl and joined their vpp. What I find totally outrageous about the vpp is this. One day they drained 3kw from my battery starting at about 5.30pm. I was paid 5cents per kw, so 15 cents in total. At the time agl was being paid $15,000 per megawatt hr. So they made $45, I was paid $0.15.
Hi Steve, at home in the Illawarra also. We have a 5kW inverter and have two powerwalls installed and using Amber as our energy supplier. We also have a Tesla model Y which is currently on the Beta "Amber beta EVs" at the moment. The inverter is also controlled by the Amber app and the export is curtailed if the feed in prices go to far negative. Best use case using Amber is with batteries which assist when there has been some big fluctuations in the wholesale pricing. We have also gained very well at times but as I say to people there has been quite an investment up front to enable this. One day earlier this year we earned over $240 with our system, so one can only imagine how much the big generators made that day. Thanks for the videos Steve, I enjoy hearing about the various stages of your electrical journey.
Hi Martin, you’re my hero! Well done. I’ll take another look at Amber once I have the Powerwall. Are you still able to use the Tesla VPP and the facilities in the Tesla app like charge only on excess solar? Cheers
@@stevestesla9120 I was with the AGL VPP for a couple of years as Tesla's VPP came in later. I had to get disconnect from the AGL VPP to use the Amber app fully. The Amber app has similar options to the Tesla app but using both together seems to confuse each other depending upon settings. I am just using the Amber app settings at present but still use the Tesla app to view some graphics that the Amber app doesn't show. They compliment each other and I will use the Tesla app to override if I need to get a charge outside of the Amber's set parameters. Excess solar is used to charge the car and homes batteries first depending upon what the current wholesale prices are. The Amber app will look ahead at forecast prices and adjust charging to get you the best value for your system.
Crikey Maritin, Amber must regret accepting you as a customer, now they must credit instead of debiting your credit card. Seriously, now with my solar/ battery setup, I paying $100/qtr on average and I'm thinking of switching my hot water from controlled load to normal power to save even further.
@@alanung Thanks for the comment, we are still paying for electricity though. Over the past 10 months the average bill is about $81 a month. That includes the house with reverse cycle AC and the car charging. We are still working through figures for the year, as I no longer drive a diesel car and we haven't burnt any gas for heating in over two year. We did have a big credit in June due the big day earnings in May, but July was a higher cost month with the winter heating turned on. I think that Amber would be happy to accept anyone, all they take is the monthly access fee of about $20, everything else is passed through to the customer. It certainly changes month to month depending upon the weather and time of year.
Great and us renters keep getting changed more, too. And that's just for the pleasure of having electricity available, not to mention the actual cost of the electricity itself. We are all being robbed!
Unfortunately in Western Australiastan we have no option but to use the state electricity provider. Also no incentives to install bateries, it sucks that we have Labor Governments at both State and Federal level.
Isn't it ironic that the party that bangs on about net zero every 3 seconds, won't do anything for the voter to net zero their house - instead it's all about the subsidies given to billionaires like Mike Corruption Brookes and plowing down forests and taking over farms to install french propellers..... It's a Fking con and the average idiot boomer and ABC viewer is completely blinded to it - like they have Stockholm syndrome, almost as brainwashed as the friggen North Koreans as they blindly worship Always Broadcasting Crap and the Labor party.
Steve, this is a great attempt to explain new technology in layman's terms! Not all PV panels are equal in performance or longevity. For batteries that is even more so! One should also consider fire risks, insurance costs and old fashioned ROI. We are stuck with the need for the Grid, because no small domestic PV system can possibly provide for all situations. And what do you do when the Grid collapses? Currently your PV system is automatically shut down via your inverter during a blackout, locking you out of any electrical supply!
Thank you. The Powerwall will provide back up during grid outage. I’m hoping that the economics work out but it will only be viable if i can sell excess via the VPP
What they don't tell you, is that if the battery is powering the house while a grid goes back on, and surges - it goes kaboom and arcs like a welder. Happened to my friends house and he lost a shed with all his tools and trade equipment.
A good video Steve so thanks. One feature missing from the Tesla Powerwall is the ability to set how/when it should use excess solar to recharge. This feature would allow owners to use their excess solar during peak periods for recharging instead of incurring negative FITs when the grid has issues with the excess supply. You can set charging times for cars and heat pump hot water systems but not the Powerwall unfortunately. Cheers
@@stevestesla9120 You are correct but the charge on excess solar only works for the car currently. Would be good if they extended it to the Powerwall. There are a few settings you can tweak but timing isn't one of them. Cheers
ideal world would be get 3 x telsa power wall and install not near your house like your shed, and get off-the grid. Produce your power, store it and used it! Self sufficient!
Hi, thanks for the video very handy. I’m looking to install a 20 kW panels and about 20 kW battery. Been a Sungro battery set up so it seems I’ll need to now start researching as well electricity retailers.
They'll refuse to entertain tarrifs for the solar if you cannot prove your inverter is a 10kw standalone. You'll need battery or two and you'll be off grid.
The sun tax works both ways. I am with Amber and I have installed two solar inverters with batteries. I buy the electricity during the day for as low as 6c/KWh and sell it back to the grid during peak demand for 25c/kWh. I am still not sure if it is worth to install more solar because we don't have enough solar to cover our consumption. A solar installation would be saving 7c/kWh. It may take too long to get the money back.
Well done, I tried Amber and couldn’t make it work using the Model Y as the battery as it’s not always at home plugged in. Amber needs a home battery in my experience, cheers
Sun-Tax [not a Federal Tax] is the name given to the Dynamic Export Management [DEM]of Distributed PV aka Rooftop Systems (not Utility Scale). There does not appear to be a generic method that is applied to this export management. One method is called a Two-Way Solar Tariff with a year split into two-time intervals and each day in those intervals also has two time intervals one that generates a charge and the other a reward. Another explanation could be a Time of Export Tariff. [ToE]. In my view referring to DEM as a Sun-Tax is to create a negative in the minds of buyers who may consider adopting Solar and/or Storage.
Central Qld is stuck with Ergon- nothing else. Will probably look at a battery system for our 13.26kwh system in the near future; even with our system, we still get $700 qaurterly bills... Most we have made was 70kwh last summer- fed 50kwh into the grid, average around 50kwh daily in summer (most years)
2:53 those towers have a capacity limit and so more capacity is more transmission lines. Nuclear promoters say $1,2,5,6, 10million per km to construct. And so will only build nuclear in existing fossil fueled power stations. The grid makes dirt cheap electricity expensive electricity. Just more thoughts, we should talk about the new grid costs in a central generation grid. 😮😮😮
I'd get an extra $700 a year credit if I had a battery so it would take much longer for me to pay off. I have a 10kw system and I went from a $5500/year bill to a $500/year credit. I'm in Queensland where I receive 13cents for what I export and 32cents for what I purchase at night. If the multiple between the tariff and purchase becomes greater, than I might start to have a bill again. That $700/year extra credit from having a battery will increase to a point that it will be worth it. I guess that's bound to happen with so many people going for solar. Energy providers will try what they can to get money from us. This includes higher buy price, lower feed in tariff and remote controlling when we can actually export
I used to think the same until I realised that the grid needs cash flow. Most electricity is dirt cheap. Feedin 5cents kWh Grid supply 50cents kWh for me. Sydney NSW. So, if you can think how the grid can keep its cash flow, you might have the grid supporting the transition to renewables. The $TRILLIONs grid business helping the transition. At the moment $kWh are increasing for the slow adopters of rooftop PV, as the grid scrambles for its cash and more rooftop is installed.
@@stephenbrickwood1602 Battery's will eventually come down in price which will increase people's independence of the grid once installed. No doubt they'll find another way of getting money from us.
Off grid may make sense. On the home front. No grid electricity, savings. No gas heating and cooking and hotwater, savings. Rondo heat battery. Soon. No petroleum, savings. No cashflow to the national grid ??😊😊
you probably want to be grid connected purely for the insurance, sucks to be charged a daily rate for something you don't use but just go with the cheapest with the right battery solution software can solve the rest tbf feed in tariffs here in NSW have been rubbish for ages, you should be trying to use 100% of the battery you generate, with an EV that's pretty easy
@elduderino7767 My considered observation is that the grid itself is a $TRILLIONS infrastructure investment, and the owners, investors, and superannuation fund need the cash flow from the customer and only get the cash flow from the customer who buys enough electricity. The real economic relationship is between the grid owners and the customers. The other observation is that the actual grid was an expensive necessity for the customers and was built gradually over 10 decades with national wealth and government spending. Also, if electricity were to replace fossil fuels, then 7 times more electricity is needed. The grid capacity has to be 7 TIMES bigger. Nuclear promoters say that the real cost of electricity to the customers is the grid costs plus a little for the generators. Basically electricity is dirt cheap but grid electricity to the customers is expensive. So even free electricity into the grid costs customers a fixed amount per kWh. So, to jump forward, we need to protect the grid and have all customers' rooftops PV be able to self supply and replace all the customers' fossil fuels and electricity. Furthermore, the customers should supply the grid with dirt cheap electricity, and the industrial users take more electricity to replace their fossil fueled processes. 74% of all electricity is consumed in homes and buildings. So, 'switch this around'. With Battery Vehicles oversized battery usually parked 23hrs every day and V2G and selfparking selfplug-in at every building carpark, then the numbers show it could all work with the original national grid, with minimal modifications. Massive savings with no more grid construction. Massive savings with no petroleum imports. Massive savings with no gas heating and cooking and hotwater use. The numbers make sense, and we should all be talking about it. Nuclear promoters ignore the big picture of more grid capacity construction. $TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS. Nuclear promoters ignore the worldwide CO2 emissions and the nuclear generation industry needs for uranium yellowcake and exploding military defence budgets.
@elduderino7767 My considered observation is that the grid itself is a $TRILLIONS infrastructure investment, and the owners, investors, and superannuation fund need the cash flow from the customer and only get the cash flow from the customer who buys enough electricity. The real economic relationship is between the grid owners and the customers. The other observation is that the actual grid was an expensive necessity for the customers and was built gradually over 10 decades with national wealth and government spending. Also, if electricity were to replace fossil fuels, then 7 times more electricity is needed. In Australia, and probably all developed nations. The grid capacity has to be 7 TIMES bigger. Nuclear promoters say that the real cost of electricity to the customers is the grid costs plus a little for the generators. Basically electricity is dirt cheap but grid electricity to the customers is expensive. So even free electricity into the grid costs customers a fixed amount per kWh. So, to jump forward, we need to protect the grid and have all customers' rooftops PV be able to self supply and replace all the customers' fossil fuels and grid electricity. Furthermore, the customers should supply the grid with dirt cheap electricity, and the industrial users take more electricity to replace their fossil fueled processes. 74% of all electricity is consumed in homes and buildings. So, 'switch this around'. With Battery Vehicles oversized battery usually parked 23hrs every day and V2G and selfparking selfplug-in at every building carpark, then the numbers show it could all work with the original national grid, with minimal modifications. Massive savings with no more grid construction. Massive savings with no petroleum imports. Massive savings with no gas heating and cooking and hotwater use. Massive savings with no new central generation. Even distant renewables electricity needs expensive transmission. The numbers make sense, and we should all be talking about it. Nuclear promoters ignore the big picture of more grid capacity construction. $TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS. Decades and decades and... Raw materials and coal and copper and.... Financing costs for decades and decades and.. Nuclear promoters ignore the worldwide CO2 emissions and the nuclear generation industry needs for uranium yellowcake and exploding military defence budgets. Most of the world's population live in warm latitudes. And latitudes are warming. Most of the world's population live in dictatorships. Rooftop PV panels shade 😎 hot roofs. Rooftop PV is cheaper than windows $/m² installed. Battery Vehicles oversized battery is FREE storage 23hrs every day and all night long. It is cheaper for the government to help the customers supply dirt cheap electricity. For economic reasons the national grid is fragile, 'just off broke'. Engineered to minimise costs and adequate supply capacity to millions and millions of customers. The grid is humongously expensive and valuable and must be protected. Cashflow is the customers / grid relationship.
@@elduderino7767 My considered observation is that the grid itself is a $TRILLIONS infrastructure investment, and the owners, investors, and superannuation fund need the cash flow from the customer and only get the cash flow from the customer who buys enough electricity. The real economic relationship is between the grid owners and the customers. The other observation is that the actual grid was an expensive necessity for the customers and was built gradually over 10 decades with national wealth and government spending. Also, if electricity were to replace fossil fuels, then 7 times more electricity is needed. In Australia, and probably all developed nations. The grid capacity has to be 7 TIMES bigger. Nuclear promoters say that the real cost of electricity to the customers is the grid costs plus a little for the generators. Basically electricity is dirt cheap but grid electricity to the customers is expensive. So even free electricity into the grid costs customers a fixed amount per kWh. So, to jump forward, we need to protect the grid and have all customers' rooftops PV be able to self supply and replace all the customers' fossil fuels and grid electricity. Furthermore, the customers should supply the grid with dirt cheap electricity, and the industrial users take more electricity to replace their fossil fueled processes. 74% of all electricity is consumed in homes and buildings. So, 'switch this around'. With Battery Vehicles oversized battery usually parked 23hrs every day and V2G and selfparking selfplug-in at every building carpark, then the numbers show it could all work with the original national grid, with minimal modifications. Massive savings with no more grid construction. Massive savings with no petroleum imports. Massive savings with no gas heating and cooking and hotwater use. Massive savings with no new central generation. Even distant renewables electricity needs expensive transmission. The numbers make sense, and we should all be talking about it. Nuclear promoters ignore the big picture of more grid capacity construction. $TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS. Decades and decades and... Raw materials and coal and copper and.... CO2 emissions of more raw materials to new completed grid. Financing costs for decades and decades and... Break even is 60years, 6 decades. Nuclear promoters ignore the worldwide CO2 emissions and the nuclear generation industry needs for uranium yellowcake and exploding military defence budgets. Most of the world's population live in warm latitudes. And latitudes are warming. Most of the world's population live in dictatorships. Sahara Desert area is political unstable and foreign security at renewables infrastructure would be a target to rebel forces. Nuclear generation industry military impossible. Nuclear plants in the middle of developed nations have extreme security. Rooftop PV panels shade 😎 hot roofs. Rooftop PV is cheaper than windows $/m² installed. Battery Vehicles oversized battery is FREE storage 23hrs every day and all night long. It is cheaper for the government to help the customers supply dirt cheap rooftop electricity. For economic reasons the national grid is fragile, 'just off broke'. Engineered to minimise costs and adequate supply capacity to millions and millions of customers. The grid is humongously expensive and valuable and must be protected. Cashflow is the customers / grid relationship.
And in winter where it's overcast for a few days in a row your stuck, can't go anywhere and can't charge the phone. Shame if you had a heart attack or stroke in that time...
tesla are the best when it comes to software but are they using LFP chemistry in their home batteries yet? if not i would consider something like BYD, they seem to be competitively priced and more scalable
@@stevestesla9120 took them long enough LFP is the place to be atm, sodium ion might muscle it's way in over the next 5 years when manufacturing hits scale and prices plummet - atm they are less dense than LFP but that doesn't matter too much for home storage, price and longevity is king manufacturers working with na-ion are suggesting they could surpass current density levels of LFP and even NCM with future generations, i'll believe it when i see it at any rate in sunny australia solar+batter+ev is the way forward, just need to size the solutions appropriately so you can cancel your electricity/fuel bills, high up front capital costs but you'll be ahead in a reasonable amount of time and then it's all gravy
Interesting i enquired about the powerwall3 only to be told you had to update the whole system. You should have bought a nissan leaf it can be used as a battery for home.
How often does the price go in the negative on a wholesale market? Like if you had a bunch of batteries, then got paid to store the power in the batteries, then sell it back off when the cost come back up? Or do those periods not happen all that regularly?
In SA for September, FIT was negative 46% of the time, both day and night, so practically all solar was negative FIT. We also see only an average of about 25c between cheapest buy price and highest sell price per day, which isn’t enough to pay off the battery. You can’t consume and sell your battery contents, so returns are minuscule.
When there is minimal sun, a very large system will still generate low amount of power to cover basic home use. Small systems like Steve's can't fire up the inverter so his got a battery to provide power when the panels don't. I run a mammoth system and it exports over 70kwh on a good day and that excess easilly pays for a light or two and the tv for a couple hours before bed.
Battery Break even in 6 years I expect is not based on what you could do with the 15k instead, even with a conservative growth you could easily grow it to 20k in the stock market, with the cgt not due until down the track, or you put the money in super and withdraw during retirement tax free. This is all assuming the battery investment (not really an ‘investment’) does not require borrowing in which case there is an impost compounded the other way . With governments allowing electricity suppliers to gouge solar owners such as I , it was not worth it, and remains not worth it. It’s a massive scam to make solar owners pay for traditional generation being shut down. Instead of home batteries what is needed is for all evs to support supplying the house. But I bet when that happens the reduction in income for government and suppliers will mean some other new tax to ensure many (becoming most in due course ) of us continue to loose money with solar
G’day I’m not comparing a battery to any other form of investment. I have excess solar I don’t need. Rather than give it away the battery enables me to use it later or sell it to someone else. Also, backup power in case of a grid outage
Steve, I must question your maths. The saving of $7 per day assumes you have at least 2 batteries for 23KWh, but when you are saying the payback for the battery is 6 years, that is a payback on just one battery installed cost. There are also other assumptions that you are getting a consistant solar production during the year from your panels, but you know production can vary widely day-to-day. And, you state that your useage overnight at just 5KWh, whilst covered by the battery, your saving is around $1.50. Sure, having your Tesla EV being charged from your battery may mean the home battery is fully discharged, and that will maximize the savings, but I doubt your battery will be paid off within the warranty period, unless the price of electricity and FIT widens dramatically.
Hi I appreciate your feedback. The real value is in selling surplus energy via the Virtual Power Plant facility. My Springtime generation is running at about 2kW during the peak of the day. It should exceed 4 in mid summer as it’s hit 5 in the past. In winter it more likely 1-2 kW at midday. I can use about 10kW/hr charging the car giving me another 10 or so to sell to VPP. The payment via VPP varies. You may be right, I’ll let you know in a year or so!
Yeah charging home owners for their dolar export stabilises the grid bullshit. Since when did money affect electrical systems like that? Home inverters generate 240vac. Theyre not like runaway electrical generators that just put out more and more regardless of the system voltage. If the grid voltage goes up the inverter doesnt source current
Hi, when solar was new Feed in tarrifs were high so it affected people’s behaviour and we bought solar. Now solar has been so successful that the incentives are becoming negative to persuade people to buy batteries and not feed the grid. Money does change behaviours.
My logic is that after 6 years I have free electricity and electric fuel for my car for the rest of my life, and then for many years later to the next owner of my house. Seems like a good deal to me, cheers
Turn your solar panels to point at the evening sun, with a higher pitch. You’ll then be powering your home in the evenings instead of exporting mid-day. I think your battery approach is financially flawed if your peak bill is only $1.50 a night. There’s no way the savings will pay off the investment in the timeframe you suggest.
I agree with you on both points. I have to orient my solar as is to suit our body corporate. The economics only works if I can sell power via the virtual power plant as self consumption doesn’t cover it. Cheers
I have 16 panels facing west, 16 facing east and 18 facing north. At 4pm / 5pm / 6pm the difference between my east and west panels is barely noticeable.
Not interested. they make things difficult this and that, here and there and up and down scenarios.just to take money off the people the trying to convince. what we really need is a good for everyone low priced and that's it..
I agree. I think over time we will see this play out and community power from home batteries will undercut the big generators. A few years to go though, cheers
I wondered the same, but my day time usage is low so i really do have 23kW/hr spare now each day and in summer that will increase. Although it will reduce probably by half in Winter. I’ll do an update in a year or so to see if I was wrong
No, there are already 700,000 Tesla Powerwall globally, fires are very rare just like in EV’s which are 20 times less likely to catch fire than ICE vehicles
For every EV you charge you need to add a battery of equal capacity as well as a solar array in addition to whatever you need for your house. For us that was $38,000. That is a hell of a lot of fossil fuel. The difference for us on 12 months of running a hybrid is 1800 dollars. Renewables are a con.
2:53 those towers have a capacity limit and so more capacity is more transmission lines. Nuclear promoters say $1,2,5,6, 10million per km to construct. And so will only build nuclear in existing fossil fueled power stations. The grid makes dirt cheap electricity expensive electricity. Just more thoughts, we should talk about the new grid costs in a central generation grid. 😮😮😮
Another great video Steve. Well put togther and very concise.
Glad you found it useful, cheers
Greetings from South Australia. Thanks for another excellent video, Dave. I like your no-BS way of explaining things in your videos. I hope you have a nice day.
Thanks very much (I’m Steve)
@@stevestesla9120 Hahaha 😊
People are getting charged for their Excess Solar because the Electricity Suppliers and Governments aren't spending enough on Batteries. There needs to be a Decentralisation plan where Suburbs get Container sized Batteries to soak up their daily output and get it back at night. Which would make prices very low.
Yes I agree, we are seeing community batteries here but still slow roll out
mate google search "battery storage map australia", it's been going absolutely nuts, the amount of taxes we are spending on them must be ridiculous
and the vast majority of it isn't even LFP but NCM which is far more expensive, especially when the government locked in the contracts probably years ago
Governments cannot afford the batteries that would be required.
This is a great idea and should be done asap
@keithwilson1554 I used to think the same until I realised that the grid needs cash flow.
Most electricity is dirt cheap.
Feedin 5cents kWh
Grid supply 50cents kWh
So, if you can think how the grid can keep its cash flow, you might have the grid supporting the transition to renewables.
The $TRILLIONs grid business helping.
Thanks Steve. We are getting solar next week so the battery info is very timely for me!
Lucky you, getting an install after July 2023 - you get the remote lockout on your system so the energy regulator can hit the switch and you export O
Glad to help, cheers
thanks Steve - great and informative video - I did not realise that AGL had this plan and have now switched so I can charge my Tesla at night :)
Fantastic! Cheers
Great episode, Steve. I have a pw2, 6.6kw solar system. Got battery through agl and joined their vpp. What I find totally outrageous about the vpp is this. One day they drained 3kw from my battery starting at about 5.30pm. I was paid 5cents per kw, so 15 cents in total. At the time agl was being paid $15,000 per megawatt hr. So they made $45, I was paid $0.15.
Wow! There is a story to be told there! It sounds as if AGL have rigged the system to their benefit. Cheers
Hi Steve, at home in the Illawarra also.
We have a 5kW inverter and have two powerwalls installed and using Amber as our energy supplier.
We also have a Tesla model Y which is currently on the Beta "Amber beta EVs" at the moment.
The inverter is also controlled by the Amber app and the export is curtailed if the feed in prices go to far negative.
Best use case using Amber is with batteries which assist when there has been some big fluctuations in the wholesale pricing.
We have also gained very well at times but as I say to people there has been quite an investment up front to enable this.
One day earlier this year we earned over $240 with our system, so one can only imagine how much the big generators made that day.
Thanks for the videos Steve, I enjoy hearing about the various stages of your electrical journey.
Hi Martin, you’re my hero! Well done. I’ll take another look at Amber once I have the Powerwall. Are you still able to use the Tesla VPP and the facilities in the Tesla app like charge only on excess solar? Cheers
@@stevestesla9120 I was with the AGL VPP for a couple of years as Tesla's VPP came in later. I had to get disconnect from the AGL VPP to use the Amber app fully.
The Amber app has similar options to the Tesla app but using both together seems to confuse each other depending upon settings. I am just using the Amber app settings at present but still use the Tesla app to view some graphics that the Amber app doesn't show. They compliment each other and I will use the Tesla app to override if I need to get a charge outside of the Amber's set parameters.
Excess solar is used to charge the car and homes batteries first depending upon what the current wholesale prices are.
The Amber app will look ahead at forecast prices and adjust charging to get you the best value for your system.
Crikey Maritin, Amber must regret accepting you as a customer, now they must credit instead of debiting your credit card. Seriously, now with my solar/ battery setup, I paying $100/qtr on average and I'm thinking of switching my hot water from controlled load to normal power to save even further.
@@alanung Thanks for the comment, we are still paying for electricity though. Over the past 10 months the average bill is about $81 a month. That includes the house with reverse cycle AC and the car charging. We are still working through figures for the year, as I no longer drive a diesel car and we haven't burnt any gas for heating in over two year. We did have a big credit in June due the big day earnings in May, but July was a higher cost month with the winter heating turned on. I think that Amber would be happy to accept anyone, all they take is the monthly access fee of about $20, everything else is passed through to the customer. It certainly changes month to month depending upon the weather and time of year.
Great and us renters keep getting changed more, too. And that's just for the pleasure of having electricity available, not to mention the actual cost of the electricity itself. We are all being robbed!
Oh don't worry, landlords are starting to catch on that a 14kw system on their rental means they can lift the rent by 150 a week
Unfortunately in Western Australiastan we have no option but to use the state electricity provider. Also no incentives to install bateries, it sucks that we have Labor Governments at both State and Federal level.
Isn't it ironic that the party that bangs on about net zero every 3 seconds, won't do anything for the voter to net zero their house - instead it's all about the subsidies given to billionaires like Mike Corruption Brookes and plowing down forests and taking over farms to install french propellers..... It's a Fking con and the average idiot boomer and ABC viewer is completely blinded to it - like they have Stockholm syndrome, almost as brainwashed as the friggen North Koreans as they blindly worship Always Broadcasting Crap and the Labor party.
Steve, this is a great attempt to explain new technology in layman's terms! Not all PV panels are equal in performance or longevity. For batteries that is even more so! One should also consider fire risks, insurance costs and old fashioned ROI. We are stuck with the need for the Grid, because no small domestic PV system can possibly provide for all situations. And what do you do when the Grid collapses? Currently your PV system is automatically shut down via your inverter during a blackout, locking you out of any electrical supply!
Thank you. The Powerwall will provide back up during grid outage. I’m hoping that the economics work out but it will only be viable if i can sell excess via the VPP
What they don't tell you, is that if the battery is powering the house while a grid goes back on, and surges - it goes kaboom and arcs like a welder. Happened to my friends house and he lost a shed with all his tools and trade equipment.
A good video Steve so thanks. One feature missing from the Tesla Powerwall is the ability to set how/when it should use excess solar to recharge. This feature would allow owners to use their excess solar during peak periods for recharging instead of incurring negative FITs when the grid has issues with the excess supply. You can set charging times for cars and heat pump hot water systems but not the Powerwall unfortunately. Cheers
Hi, thanks for the tip, i thought there was a “Charge on excess solar” feature, i must be wrong
@@stevestesla9120 You are correct but the charge on excess solar only works for the car currently. Would be good if they extended it to the Powerwall. There are a few settings you can tweak but timing isn't one of them. Cheers
ideal world would be get 3 x telsa power wall and install not near your house like your shed, and get off-the grid. Produce your power, store it and used it! Self sufficient!
That would be perfect and also $45,000 so not viable for me
Hi, thanks for the video very handy. I’m looking to install a 20 kW panels and about 20 kW battery. Been a Sungro battery set up so it seems I’ll need to now start researching as well electricity retailers.
Excellent, you can power the neighbourhood with that!
They'll refuse to entertain tarrifs for the solar if you cannot prove your inverter is a 10kw standalone. You'll need battery or two and you'll be off grid.
The sun tax works both ways. I am with Amber and I have installed two solar inverters with batteries. I buy the electricity during the day for as low as 6c/KWh and sell it back to the grid during peak demand for 25c/kWh.
I am still not sure if it is worth to install more solar because we don't have enough solar to cover our consumption. A solar installation would be saving 7c/kWh. It may take too long to get the money back.
Well done, I tried Amber and couldn’t make it work using the Model Y as the battery as it’s not always at home plugged in. Amber needs a home battery in my experience, cheers
@@stevestesla9120 Amber certainly needs a battery.
Sun-Tax [not a Federal Tax] is the name given to the Dynamic Export Management [DEM]of Distributed PV aka Rooftop Systems (not Utility Scale). There does not appear to be a generic method that is applied to this export management. One method is called a Two-Way Solar Tariff with a year split into two-time intervals and each day in those intervals also has two time intervals one that generates a charge and the other a reward. Another explanation could be a Time of Export Tariff. [ToE]. In my view referring to DEM as a Sun-Tax is to create a negative in the minds of buyers who may consider adopting Solar and/or Storage.
Very good rationale, thank you, cheers
Central Qld is stuck with Ergon- nothing else.
Will probably look at a battery system for our 13.26kwh system in the near future; even with our system, we still get $700 qaurterly bills...
Most we have made was 70kwh last summer- fed 50kwh into the grid, average around 50kwh daily in summer (most years)
It sounds like you’re in a bind with Ergon, cheers
2:53 those towers have a capacity limit and so more capacity is more transmission lines.
Nuclear promoters say $1,2,5,6, 10million per km to construct.
And so will only build nuclear in existing fossil fueled power stations.
The grid makes dirt cheap electricity expensive electricity.
Just more thoughts, we should talk about the new grid costs in a central generation grid. 😮😮😮
I'd get an extra $700 a year credit if I had a battery so it would take much longer for me to pay off. I have a 10kw system and I went from a $5500/year bill to a $500/year credit.
I'm in Queensland where I receive 13cents for what I export and 32cents for what I purchase at night.
If the multiple between the tariff and purchase becomes greater, than I might start to have a bill again. That $700/year extra credit from having a battery will increase to a point that it will be worth it. I guess that's bound to happen with so many people going for solar. Energy providers will try what they can to get money from us. This includes higher buy price, lower feed in tariff and remote controlling when we can actually export
That seems to be the direction we are heading. Thanks for the feedback
I used to think the same until I realised that the grid needs cash flow.
Most electricity is dirt cheap.
Feedin 5cents kWh
Grid supply 50cents kWh for me. Sydney NSW.
So, if you can think how the grid can keep its cash flow, you might have the grid supporting the transition to renewables.
The $TRILLIONs grid business helping the transition.
At the moment $kWh are increasing for the slow adopters of rooftop PV, as the grid scrambles for its cash and more rooftop is installed.
@@stephenbrickwood1602 Battery's will eventually come down in price which will increase people's independence of the grid once installed. No doubt they'll find another way of getting money from us.
Off grid may make sense.
On the home front.
No grid electricity, savings.
No gas heating and cooking and hotwater, savings.
Rondo heat battery. Soon.
No petroleum, savings.
No cashflow to the national grid ??😊😊
you probably want to be grid connected purely for the insurance, sucks to be charged a daily rate for something you don't use but just go with the cheapest
with the right battery solution software can solve the rest
tbf feed in tariffs here in NSW have been rubbish for ages, you should be trying to use 100% of the battery you generate, with an EV that's pretty easy
@elduderino7767 My considered observation is that the grid itself is a $TRILLIONS infrastructure investment, and the owners, investors, and superannuation fund need the cash flow from the customer and only get the cash flow from the customer who buys enough electricity.
The real economic relationship is between the grid owners and the customers.
The other observation is that the actual grid was an expensive necessity for the customers and was built gradually over 10 decades with national wealth and government spending.
Also, if electricity were to replace fossil fuels, then 7 times more electricity is needed.
The grid capacity has to be 7 TIMES bigger.
Nuclear promoters say that the real cost of electricity to the customers is the grid costs plus a little for the generators.
Basically electricity is dirt cheap but grid electricity to the customers is expensive.
So even free electricity into the grid costs customers a fixed amount per kWh.
So, to jump forward, we need to protect the grid and have all customers' rooftops PV be able to self supply and replace all the customers' fossil fuels and electricity.
Furthermore, the customers should supply the grid with dirt cheap electricity, and the industrial users take more electricity to replace their fossil fueled processes.
74% of all electricity is consumed in homes and buildings.
So, 'switch this around'.
With Battery Vehicles oversized battery usually parked 23hrs every day and V2G and selfparking selfplug-in at every building carpark, then the numbers show it could all work with the original national grid, with minimal modifications.
Massive savings with no more grid construction.
Massive savings with no petroleum imports.
Massive savings with no gas heating and cooking and hotwater use.
The numbers make sense, and we should all be talking about it.
Nuclear promoters ignore the big picture of more grid capacity construction.
$TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS.
Nuclear promoters ignore the worldwide CO2 emissions and the nuclear generation industry needs for uranium yellowcake and exploding military defence budgets.
@elduderino7767 My considered observation is that the grid itself is a $TRILLIONS infrastructure investment, and the owners, investors, and superannuation fund need the cash flow from the customer and only get the cash flow from the customer who buys enough electricity.
The real economic relationship is between the grid owners and the customers.
The other observation is that the actual grid was an expensive necessity for the customers and was built gradually over 10 decades with national wealth and government spending.
Also, if electricity were to replace fossil fuels, then 7 times more electricity is needed. In Australia, and probably all developed nations.
The grid capacity has to be 7 TIMES bigger.
Nuclear promoters say that the real cost of electricity to the customers is the grid costs plus a little for the generators.
Basically electricity is dirt cheap but grid electricity to the customers is expensive.
So even free electricity into the grid costs customers a fixed amount per kWh.
So, to jump forward, we need to protect the grid and have all customers' rooftops PV be able to self supply and replace all the customers' fossil fuels and grid electricity.
Furthermore, the customers should supply the grid with dirt cheap electricity, and the industrial users take more electricity to replace their fossil fueled processes.
74% of all electricity is consumed in homes and buildings.
So, 'switch this around'.
With Battery Vehicles oversized battery usually parked 23hrs every day and V2G and selfparking selfplug-in at every building carpark, then the numbers show it could all work with the original national grid, with minimal modifications.
Massive savings with no more grid construction.
Massive savings with no petroleum imports.
Massive savings with no gas heating and cooking and hotwater use.
Massive savings with no new central generation.
Even distant renewables electricity needs expensive transmission.
The numbers make sense, and we should all be talking about it.
Nuclear promoters ignore the big picture of more grid capacity construction.
$TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS.
Decades and decades and...
Raw materials and coal and copper and....
Financing costs for decades and decades and..
Nuclear promoters ignore the worldwide CO2 emissions and the nuclear generation industry needs for uranium yellowcake and exploding military defence budgets.
Most of the world's population live in warm latitudes. And latitudes are warming.
Most of the world's population live in dictatorships.
Rooftop PV panels shade 😎 hot roofs.
Rooftop PV is cheaper than windows $/m² installed.
Battery Vehicles oversized battery is FREE storage 23hrs every day and all night long.
It is cheaper for the government to help the customers supply dirt cheap electricity.
For economic reasons the national grid is fragile, 'just off broke'.
Engineered to minimise costs and adequate supply capacity to millions and millions of customers.
The grid is humongously expensive and valuable and must be protected.
Cashflow is the customers / grid relationship.
@@elduderino7767 My considered observation is that the grid itself is a $TRILLIONS infrastructure investment, and the owners, investors, and superannuation fund need the cash flow from the customer and only get the cash flow from the customer who buys enough electricity.
The real economic relationship is between the grid owners and the customers.
The other observation is that the actual grid was an expensive necessity for the customers and was built gradually over 10 decades with national wealth and government spending.
Also, if electricity were to replace fossil fuels, then 7 times more electricity is needed. In Australia, and probably all developed nations.
The grid capacity has to be 7 TIMES bigger.
Nuclear promoters say that the real cost of electricity to the customers is the grid costs plus a little for the generators.
Basically electricity is dirt cheap but grid electricity to the customers is expensive.
So even free electricity into the grid costs customers a fixed amount per kWh.
So, to jump forward, we need to protect the grid and have all customers' rooftops PV be able to self supply and replace all the customers' fossil fuels and grid electricity.
Furthermore, the customers should supply the grid with dirt cheap electricity, and the industrial users take more electricity to replace their fossil fueled processes.
74% of all electricity is consumed in homes and buildings.
So, 'switch this around'.
With Battery Vehicles oversized battery usually parked 23hrs every day and V2G and selfparking selfplug-in at every building carpark, then the numbers show it could all work with the original national grid, with minimal modifications.
Massive savings with no more grid construction.
Massive savings with no petroleum imports.
Massive savings with no gas heating and cooking and hotwater use.
Massive savings with no new central generation.
Even distant renewables electricity needs expensive transmission.
The numbers make sense, and we should all be talking about it.
Nuclear promoters ignore the big picture of more grid capacity construction.
$TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS.
Decades and decades and...
Raw materials and coal and copper and....
CO2 emissions of more raw materials to new completed grid.
Financing costs for decades and decades and...
Break even is 60years, 6 decades.
Nuclear promoters ignore the worldwide CO2 emissions and the nuclear generation industry needs for uranium yellowcake and exploding military defence budgets.
Most of the world's population live in warm latitudes. And latitudes are warming.
Most of the world's population live in dictatorships.
Sahara Desert area is political unstable and foreign security at renewables infrastructure would be a target to rebel forces.
Nuclear generation industry military impossible.
Nuclear plants in the middle of developed nations have extreme security.
Rooftop PV panels shade 😎 hot roofs.
Rooftop PV is cheaper than windows $/m² installed.
Battery Vehicles oversized battery is FREE storage 23hrs every day and all night long.
It is cheaper for the government to help the customers supply dirt cheap rooftop electricity.
For economic reasons the national grid is fragile, 'just off broke'.
Engineered to minimise costs and adequate supply capacity to millions and millions of customers.
The grid is humongously expensive and valuable and must be protected.
Cashflow is the customers / grid relationship.
And in winter where it's overcast for a few days in a row your stuck, can't go anywhere and can't charge the phone. Shame if you had a heart attack or stroke in that time...
tesla are the best when it comes to software but are they using LFP chemistry in their home batteries yet? if not i would consider something like BYD, they seem to be competitively priced and more scalable
The Powerwall 3 does use LFP, I hear good reviews about the BYD batteries, they are the specialists after all
@@stevestesla9120 took them long enough
LFP is the place to be atm, sodium ion might muscle it's way in over the next 5 years when manufacturing hits scale and prices plummet - atm they are less dense than LFP but that doesn't matter too much for home storage, price and longevity is king
manufacturers working with na-ion are suggesting they could surpass current density levels of LFP and even NCM with future generations, i'll believe it when i see it
at any rate in sunny australia solar+batter+ev is the way forward, just need to size the solutions appropriately so you can cancel your electricity/fuel bills, high up front capital costs but you'll be ahead in a reasonable amount of time and then it's all gravy
Interesting i enquired about the powerwall3 only to be told you had to update the whole system.
You should have bought a nissan leaf it can be used as a battery for home.
Yeah the Tesla came first. Now I’m setting up the whole ecosystem, a bit like Apple, as it all works together
where do you get the 8 c off peak in Vic the cheapest is 20c
I don’t know is AGL available there?
$1.20 X 365 ($438 yr or 10 yrs at current daily charge rate) $4380. Go off-grid and put that towards your infrastructure 💪
Yes thanks for watching
How often does the price go in the negative on a wholesale market?
Like if you had a bunch of batteries, then got paid to store the power in the batteries, then sell it back off when the cost come back up?
Or do those periods not happen all that regularly?
This was my experience….I switched to wholesale electricity - Amber Electric
ua-cam.com/video/H4mZQHyr404/v-deo.html
In SA for September, FIT was negative 46% of the time, both day and night, so practically all solar was negative FIT.
We also see only an average of about 25c between cheapest buy price and highest sell price per day, which isn’t enough to pay off the battery. You can’t consume and sell your battery contents, so returns are minuscule.
What happens when there is no sun, do we get a discount or refund. ??? The solar only works with the sun..
Did you watch the video? How do you get a drink of water when it’s not raining? Storage!
When there is minimal sun, a very large system will still generate low amount of power to cover basic home use. Small systems like Steve's can't fire up the inverter so his got a battery to provide power when the panels don't.
I run a mammoth system and it exports over 70kwh on a good day and that excess easilly pays for a light or two and the tv for a couple hours before bed.
My feed-in is 5cents kWh
My grid supply is 50cents kWh.
The grid makes dirt cheap electricity very expensive. 😮😮😮
What effect does installing a home solar and battery system have on your home insurance premium , given the additional fire risk ?
Zero, not an issue
@@stevestesla9120 Insurance companies will soon fix that.
Zero insurance increase for me and I have a 14kw solar. No battery.
Battery Break even in 6 years I expect is not based on what you could do with the 15k instead, even with a conservative growth you could easily grow it to 20k in the stock market, with the cgt not due until down the track, or you put the money in super and withdraw during retirement tax free. This is all assuming the battery investment (not really an ‘investment’) does not require borrowing in which case there is an impost compounded the other way . With governments allowing electricity suppliers to gouge solar owners such as I , it was not worth it, and remains not worth it. It’s a massive scam to make solar owners pay for traditional generation being shut down. Instead of home batteries what is needed is for all evs to support supplying the house. But I bet when that happens the reduction in income for government and suppliers will mean some other new tax to ensure many (becoming most in due course ) of us continue to loose money with solar
G’day I’m not comparing a battery to any other form of investment. I have excess solar I don’t need. Rather than give it away the battery enables me to use it later or sell it to someone else. Also, backup power in case of a grid outage
Steve, I must question your maths. The saving of $7 per day assumes you have at least 2 batteries for 23KWh, but when you are saying the payback for the battery is 6 years, that is a payback on just one battery installed cost. There are also other assumptions that you are getting a consistant solar production during the year from your panels, but you know production can vary widely day-to-day. And, you state that your useage overnight at just 5KWh, whilst covered by the battery, your saving is around $1.50. Sure, having your Tesla EV being charged from your battery may mean the home battery is fully discharged, and that will maximize the savings, but I doubt your battery will be paid off within the warranty period, unless the price of electricity and FIT widens dramatically.
Hi I appreciate your feedback. The real value is in selling surplus energy via the Virtual Power Plant facility. My Springtime generation is running at about 2kW during the peak of the day. It should exceed 4 in mid summer as it’s hit 5 in the past. In winter it more likely 1-2 kW at midday. I can use about 10kW/hr charging the car giving me another 10 or so to sell to VPP. The payment via VPP varies. You may be right, I’ll let you know in a year or so!
I generate 4 times as much power in overcast conditions. You need to get your roof covered and up the size of that inverter there Steve
😂😂😂😂 stiff, you were warned
Yeah charging home owners for their dolar export stabilises the grid bullshit. Since when did money affect electrical systems like that?
Home inverters generate 240vac. Theyre not like runaway electrical generators that just put out more and more regardless of the system voltage. If the grid voltage goes up the inverter doesnt source current
Hi, when solar was new Feed in tarrifs were high so it affected people’s behaviour and we bought solar. Now solar has been so successful that the incentives are becoming negative to persuade people to buy batteries and not feed the grid. Money does change behaviours.
@@stevestesla9120 yeah but it doesnt stabilise the grid
I can't see the justification for a $17k battery...energy is going to be super cheap apparently
My logic is that after 6 years I have free electricity and electric fuel for my car for the rest of my life, and then for many years later to the next owner of my house. Seems like a good deal to me, cheers
What happens when the car, or battery has a thermal runaway. Have you ever had a 20 year old power tool battery that's still good as new ?
Turn your solar panels to point at the evening sun, with a higher pitch. You’ll then be powering your home in the evenings instead of exporting mid-day.
I think your battery approach is financially flawed if your peak bill is only $1.50 a night. There’s no way the savings will pay off the investment in the timeframe you suggest.
I agree with you on both points. I have to orient my solar as is to suit our body corporate. The economics only works if I can sell power via the virtual power plant as self consumption doesn’t cover it. Cheers
I have 16 panels facing west, 16 facing east and 18 facing north. At 4pm / 5pm / 6pm the difference between my east and west panels is barely noticeable.
Not interested. they make things difficult this and that, here and there and up and down scenarios.just to take money off the people the trying to convince. what we really need is a good for everyone low priced and that's it..
I agree. I think over time we will see this play out and community power from home batteries will undercut the big generators. A few years to go though, cheers
Luckily not long to go now and my community gets the benefit of a nuclear reactor humming away providing constant cheap power day and night.
You won't have that much excess to put into a battery with such a small solar PV system. I doubt your ROI battery numbers too
I wondered the same, but my day time usage is low so i really do have 23kW/hr spare now each day and in summer that will increase. Although it will reduce probably by half in Winter. I’ll do an update in a year or so to see if I was wrong
Are you not scared they might spontaneously combust? I know you explained this well I just couldn’t get my head around the technology. But thanks for
No, there are already 700,000 Tesla Powerwall globally, fires are very rare just like in EV’s which are 20 times less likely to catch fire than ICE vehicles
For every EV you charge you need to add a battery of equal capacity as well as a solar array in addition to whatever you need for your house. For us that was $38,000. That is a hell of a lot of fossil fuel. The difference for us on 12 months of running a hybrid is 1800 dollars. Renewables are a con.
Hi, not sure what you mean? Do you charge a battery then dump that into your EV?
Batteries would be hard pressed to last 6 years.
Except the latest are warranted for 10 years to still have at least 90% of their original capacity
UTTER BS,
2:53 those towers have a capacity limit and so more capacity is more transmission lines.
Nuclear promoters say $1,2,5,6, 10million per km to construct.
And so will only build nuclear in existing fossil fueled power stations.
The grid makes dirt cheap electricity expensive electricity.
Just more thoughts, we should talk about the new grid costs in a central generation grid. 😮😮😮