The HS2 Battle of the 1800's
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2023
- Massive Thanks to: www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk for their huge resource
My first real love of the Landscape and the human geography that has shaped it came in the form of a railway, two railways that ran side by side for a few miles. I often wondered why there was two. From that point forward everything about the railways, the canals, the roads and routes fascinated me. This is the story of a race that at least two companies took part in.
Error 1: I note that I used Lord Carnarvon's picture for The Marquis of Ailesbury!
Error 2: I omitted to note that the DNSR line stopped at Winchester and had to accept a second offer from LSWR and cross the itchen valley over Hockley Viaduct joining their main line. Messed that Up completely in the video hence the Error message in the description. The MSWJR: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_... and the DNSR was: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_H...
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Credits (Public domain if not stated):
Filter: Snowman Digital and Beachfront B-Roll
Beeching Books: Rober G
Beeching Pic: Network Rail
DNSR station shots: Lamberhurst
Fullerton: Jim Lester Collection
Fullerton: Lamberhurst
Longparish: Ron Strutt
Newspaper artciles on Swindon: www.tunnelhouse.co.uk/
Winchester Chesil: John Thorn
Maps: Google Maps
Maps: National Library of Scotland
Maps: OS Maps. Media License.
Stock Footage: Storyblocks
Music: Storyblocks
Music: Epidemicsound - Розваги
Simultaneous postings by Paul and Rebecca, and MartinZero. My Sunday is complete!
Brilliant. Well researched well filmed well presented. You really do produce some quality stuff.
Thanks John.
My first girlfriend fell of her bike into the canal where the boat is at 11:48....another vital piece of history.
Oooops
@@pwhitewick Was she escaping from you 😂😂😂😂
@@barrieshepherd7694 Avoiding a butterfly
Bloody hell you still remember time stuck in your head , did she survive relationship 😢
I have always looked at the M&SWJR as a twin brother to the Somerset & Dorset Railway ( Bath extension section ). There are parallels. Both run North to South. Both are, more or less, in the West Country. Both had similar concepts and reasons for building. Both had short branch lines leading off the main line ( though the Tidworth branch of the M&SWJR had considerably less mileage ), both crossed beautiful rural landscapes with sparse populations. Both traversed fairly steep gradients and had rather sharp radii of curves throughout their somewhat tortuous routes.
As if this were not enough, both were promoted and built by small independent companies rather than any of the giants like the GWR or LSWR. Consequently they were perhaps not built to as high a standard as they might have been in order to cut costs. By coincidence neither route reached its southern objective on their own metals either, both requiring running powers over the LSWR's rails for the final stretches into Bournemouth and Southampton. For that matter a similar situation developed at the northern ends as well.
Intriguingly both lines had a mix of single and double track sections which reduced capacity and both crossed several East to West running lines throughout their length - including both the GWR's main trunk routes. One could go still further by saying that the DN&SR was a half brother to these two, but that perhaps would be going too far !!
Somewhat ironically, the GWR branch line has lived up to its name, given all the trees that are there now...
Yup, mostly unwalkable, but still remnants remain
I did a lot of exploring around those parts with my mates 40 years ago. Marlborough tunnel, Stibb Green, Burbage and generally ending up at the Savernake Forest Hotel for a few drinks.
The M&SWJR was heavily used during both WW1 and WW2 carrying troops from the north of England etc to Southampton. Sam Fay whom you mentioned became very important in the story of the Great Central Railway too.
Mmm! "Back on track!", Paul flippantly utters, describing the wars of the railways? 😅🤣🤣🤣 Tickled me!
Twice I tell ye
Really interesting and great research - shows that even back then getting railway infrastructure built was not without its challenges!
hello again Paul and Rebecca, another great video as always , well done and thank you 😊
Great stuff ( a north south line now would be such a positive asset, passenger and freight) and nice explanation of the double bridges on the country road to Wootton Rivers.The GWR line in Savernake saw a huge explosion in Jan 1946 when wagons with some 200 tonnes of old US and German ammo on the north Savernake Sidings went up killing eight servicemen.
I love the musical choice. It gives a sense of urgency and anxiety that seemed to be at the heart of the matter.
I lived in the old Snainton Railway station for half my life and also worked in the pub up the road called the Peacock made out of the very same bricks as the station. Was quite an interesting garden with both platforms! I swear that place was haunted though. Happy to be out
Trust you've got Colin Maggs' book (David & Charles, 1967 & 1980) book on the M&SWJR. Always thought it should have been joined with the S&D in 1922 under joint Southern/LMS management, rather than given to GWR. Used a lot in both world wars (both, plus DN&S), but the freight never materialised in the quantities needed to make them profitable. And, more on Sam Fay, please.
Well done. So interesting As always. Appreciate all your research. Thank you
Wow - I'm not surprised it took you a while to edit and produce this very well made video. Top marks on the reseach, filming etc. to produce a very professionial product.
🙏🙏🙏
You might have commented on the irony of all these lines that competed for north-south traffic having eventually closed, leaving now only the route via Basingstoke.
100%
Another well researched and excellently presented broadcast. Thank you.
Excellent! I thoroughly enjoyed this and you captured the competition between the MSWJR and the DNSR perfectly. Keep at it!
Thanks for compiling and sharing, was always fascinated by the disused railways around Marlborough, from when I first started passing through the area 30 years ago...
Excellent work, great editing and a fascinating subject.
Many thanks!
Well done, you two.
It was researched well and and was well presented.
Thank you
Excellent video so interesting to watch. I love learning about old railways.
Thank you
Brilliant stuff as always, thanks, Paul! The amount of research that must go into these videos… 😮 story well told!
Many thanks!
A fascinating tale as usual, delivered with such enthusiasm. You make these videos so very interesting.
Thank you very much!
Another great follow video today. Ive been diagnosed with Lou Gehrig’s disease. There is no cure. Will continue following Rebecca and you as long as possible. See you on the next! ❤❤😊😊
Ah Martin. So sorry to hear this. Thoughts with you. ❤️❤️
Wonderfully researched, filmed and edited 😀
Thanks Matt
Another Fine Video Well Done Paul & Rebecca😊
Thank you kindly
great video guys. story telling, naration, all fab. reaelly enjoyed this 😀
Top work on this one Paul!
Thank you
Nice one, Paul, with the wee bits of canal and Roman or earlier roads thrown in! Back in the dying days of first generation DMUs, I recall seeing a unit from a passing Bristol train, standing outside Southall Depot and sporting the rather unlikely destination (in 1985), of Savernake Low Level - and then having to get the OS maps out when we got home, to discover where on earth it had been! Indeed, had the M4 followed its A-class equivalent more closely, things might have been very different again!
Ha, thats brilliant. 1985! Yes indeed, I guess Swindon was more popular than Marlborough for a through route
Almost nobody lives near the Savernake stations' sites! There was a hotel, also gone, to the extent that it's now flats, not a hotel.
Very good Paul - you do well!!! 🙂🚂🚂🚂
Another well produced video.Greetings from Australia.
Many thanks!
Amazing that these guys could build an entire railway network in a matter of a few years, meanwhile HS2 takes a decade and £100bn to not even get out of London
"HS" in french generally means 'hors service', or out of service... but I guess this is an old joke.
Alas, from conception to completion this was close to 30 years.
nimbyism 😢
The Victorians were interested of getting things done.
Their modern counterparts are interested in making themselves rich and spending as much as much as possible.
A few phrases to help understanding of the HS2 woes;
Health and Safety,
Planning Rules,
Not In My Back Yard
Environmental Impact
Populist Politics
Treasury
Department for Tarmac (ooops Transport)
Fantastic content Paul! Thank You👌
Yes, very good video. Well done researching all those years and informations and names and all. Railway historians would be impressed I'm sure.
Many thanks!
Just south of Savernake Forest, where those two bridges were, the Ordnance Survey map says "dismtd rlys". There are lots of places where "dismtd rly" is used as there isn't enough space for the full "dismantled railway", but that extra "s" in the abbreviation tells a story.
Ahh yes indeed it does
Top notch content, gripping from the get go. 👌
Cheers Chris
I had great fun walking those lines a few years back , I remember stopping on a narrow boat by the old bridge years ago with my Explorer scouts and they all moaning when they realized what I was doing taking photo's of the old line!
Really enjoyed the story about the Railways. Great video
Thanks Simon
Sam Fay went on to become the General Manager of the Great Central Railway and was knighted by King George V at the opening of Immingham Dock
Indeed yes. A story in itself.
i really like the old railway ones. thanks!
Me too!
Great video, i'm lucky enough to live right here in Burbage on the edge of these lines.
Another great video - thanks Paul.
The real problem for these two routes once the railways started contracting and closures started was the availability of a reasonably good route via Reading and Basingstoke, over what were probably much better engineered lines.
BTW Paul - did you mean to use the same photo for Lord Carnarvon and the Marquis of Aylesbury?
Nooooope. Lol. Completely messed that up. Not quite sure how to be honest.
Great vid Paul, im from Marlborough so know this route well. Ive walked or cycled most of it. well where possible.
As always, verey intereting. Can't imagine buidling railways today at the same speed and intensity as in the C19th.
Brilliant. Very interesting. Thank you😊
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Brilliant, brilliant video, I was enthralled. The music helped too. It seems such a shame that once the railway was completed and a success, that you're standing by bridge ruins nowadays.
Cheers Hedley.
Fast moving (I'll have to watch again) and very interesting. What did I learn? - almost everything here was new to me 😀 It's now set me off, at a tangent, chasing the Marlborough boundary...
Fascinating story! It seems that the duplication of these route diluted the traffic each could achieve which helped seal their fates. It means that towns such as Marlborough and Cirencester (an other examples elsewhere) that each had two stations on different lines now have none at all.
Absolutely James.
Amazing how one of the geniuses behind the great central railway Sir Sam Fay was heavily involved in this
Yep, I guess not too long after this as well?
Brilliant quality 👏👏👏
Thanks Matt, really tried with this one!
Off next week to do as many Heritage railways l can in a week
LOVE IT... in the week.
I always wondered about the pair of railway bridges over the Chesterfield Canal. They're even closer together. I wonder if the cause is essentially the same? These bridges are barely outside Chesterfield itself. They're the first bridges you pass under after leaving Tapton Lock going north, not counting the road bridges which surround the lock itself. The little glen between them is surprisingly pretty. One of the bridges is beautifully constructed too. The other is more appreciated by pigeons; they like its under-girders. ;)
very interesting thank you
I do love these lost railway routes 😜
Awesome
Great video Paul. Lord Carnavon looks remarkably like the Marquis of Aylesbury. Were they related?
My Dad worked at the Winchester Chesil street station in the ticket office before it closed
Oh wow. Love that. ❤️
@@pwhitewick My Uncle worked at the other train station in Winchester as a porter
Hi Paul, it certainly is a missing link especially when you flip between modern lines and historic ones on railmaps online.
Very interesting and well told story, thank you. Have a great week.
Thanks David. Yup, flipping between the two does highlight that need for the link
Pretty decent video tbh, enjoyed it 👍
Cheeeeers
Really great video guys. Hard to imagine having the choice of two lines! Closest thing we have now is probably do we go via Salisbury or Basingstoke to get to Southampton 🙈
Have you written any books Paul?
Thank you. Sadly no, I'd like to one day, but alas, I am no Historian. I just enjoy the research and story telling.
Basingstoke & Reading is the preferred service, if admittedly somewhat circuitous.
@jimthorne304 took me about 6 hours to walk andover to Winchester, much cheaper and nicer! Tbf, there is a bus for £2
Also executives also need to look towards the very beginning of the first ever tram and train lines at wirral Liverpool and Manchester
But did either line make any money, or at least enough to cover the initial investment plus interest?
Very interesting video. What happened to the Didcot line, I assume it eventually got to Southampton although both lines never made it North. (Much like HS2)
Fully link from Didcot to Winchester when they finally ran out of Money. Had to link to LSWR across the Hockley Viaduct
That's the problem with a lot of projects, the citycentrics. No vision for outside people to get to the cities properly. It took people like Sam and Carnavon to put things together. Yes, it was a new and exciting period re railways...but too much competition. I'm glad our state owns the railways and private enterprise only runs the trains, and buses, not the infrastructure.
More evidence that the country needed a guiding mind for railway development. Relentlessly duplicated routes led inevitably to the Beeching& Castle closures. Good to see some small reversals of those catastrophic years, but witness the painfully slow progress of construction of EWR, HS2 or the Midland Metro extension.
100% yep
Duplicate routes should not have been closed... freight lines don't really need duplicate routes... but passenger lines benefit a lot, or at least passengers do. one thing above all that England's railways were designed from the beginning to carry, was freight... passengers were, for the most part, an afterthought... maybe less so in the South East... but for the rest of England, it mainly was. HS2 is a pointless waste of Sterling that could otherwise have been spent on reconnecting the North or otherwise the rest of England outside of London & the South East.
@Paul and Rebcca Whitewick, Are you aware of this Heritage event in Leicester this weekend coming? Headline: 'Leicester: Former world's longest rail tunnel to allow visitors'. ...'Glenfield Railway Tunnel in Leicester was one mile (1.6km) long when it opened in 1832. It was used to transport coal into the city.
When the railway closed in the 1960s, the tunnel was bought by Leicester City Council for £5...'
Ah yes, they seem to do a few of these. unable to make this one though
@@pwhitewick It seems to be just one or two weekends each year, well-spaced.. Not so good for filming, when many others might be there.
Woodside station should be replaced by the liverpool - Birkenhead mainline station for extra stations such as BEECHWOOD WOODCHURCH AND other stations that where once there just renew them and reconstruct how hard can it be......👍
As has been said by others before me: imagine if all this funding and construction had gone into building a properly planned network instead of so much spent on scheming and messing things up for the competition?
Same for the canals, obviously.
100% yes. From the start.
We know many people have done the Crop Circle reports however, could you also do one research and report on this subject ? Anyway , it's a geographic and history related phenomena, can't go around that, right? Thanks
Yep. A study of any regional differences in the percentage of nutters lurking in the shadows would be quite interesting. Might give some spotty University thesis candidate a career start testing the water and local crops for hallucinogenic substances. Or genetic experts a job in testing for any familial occurrence of Village Idiot Syndrome in the area. 🙄
@@theoztreecrasher2647 Surely, you can interpret this way however, have you interviewed those who claimed the Crop Circle were make by the aliens ?
can you confirm the names of the great landed persons pictured (one bod or two?)
Messed that Up completely in the video hence the Error message in the description. The MSWJR: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Brudenell-Bruce,_4th_Marquess_of_Ailesbury and the DNSR was: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Herbert,_4th_Earl_of_Carnarvon
@@pwhitewick ahh, missed the note in description. We all know railway promoters have to have at least a tache ( for dubious characters) and the full set (for those putting their own money/ideas in )
👍
I saw the title and naturally thought the video was about HS2...
Oooooh. totally didn't see that
@@pwhitewick it was tongue in cheek. I know your videos are all about stuff that works... HS2 could never creep into that category.. keep up the good work. 👍
@billyskoda6839 ha... well it does have its similarities. Also HS2, if built in full, would work. 100%
@pwhitewick I live in the Forest of Dean.. plenty of old railways as you know, but to get to a working line takes at least 30 minutes in any direction these days.
@billyskoda6839 yup... and HS2 (if built in full which it won't be) would have had the capacity to free up lines for 100s of miles that it doesn't even touch!
More amazing than US Transcontinental?
Did competition make the trains what they were then i.e. functioning and vibrant? Or in other words, what would railways look like today if the government hadn't nationalised them after WWII and effectively destroyed them. And unfortunately that bell could not be unrung by privatising them again in recent decades, the damage had already been done.
That is neoliberal dogma and lacks real evidence. In the 19th century railways were revolutionary in terms of speed and capacity. Vast amounts of money were lost in abortive railway ventures and ill-considered schemes. It is very clear that when transportation systems are involved sustainable competition is going to be very limited. Post WW2 the new revolution was road transport and it was embraced with much the same fervour as railways had been a century earlier. But there is a key difference. Providing roads, unlike rail, has never been anything other than a function of government. Was there ever a plan for private companies to build competing roads between major centres? No. There are occasional toll roads around the world but even these are generally state owned, albeit run by private companies.
The GWR was already disinvesting in the M&SWJR; one of the first things they did was to close Savernake (High) and the Marlborough station, also most of the former Marlborough railway. They also singled the track from Cirencester to Andoversford.
Imagine these men at this time being handed a TBM what places they could have gone we will never know but for sure Rail may have become so in-ground across all the islands that the Chunnel may have existed even pre WW1 let alone 2
Well it wasn't for that lack of trying.
INDEED! @@pwhitewick the raw determination and work to "get it done" this era engaged in is nothing short of always amazing. I have watched yourselves, and others enter stone and brick lined tunnels and listened to how it was done and I still think of how after 50 years I cant stack a deck of cards HOW these boys (a great many were boys) and men did it. And did it in ways that 150+ years on so much of it is still standing or even in use!
Let the Iittle Companies do the Hard Graft watch and wait then LSWR and GWR moves in buy those Companies out and the Trackbed is theres.
Something not London centric would have been good. In fact, the rationalising of the railways in the 1950's and 60s (hello Mr Beeching) has probably made railways even more London centric which is what we are left with. UK is certainly not alone in directing everyone to the capital city from the provinces, you just think it could have been better.
I can imagine this in west Virginia
A new BIRKENHEAD TOWN RENEWED STATION PLEASE
These lines came late to the party the railway mania having ceased well before that. I always thought these were simply blocking moves as between the GWR and the LSWR. Interesting video, though.
Indeed long after but still the geography was key for both.
Yes needless competition and petty rivalry did result in some bizarre results, but without competition nothing would have been built at all.
My Scottish grandfather always remarked, if they wanted more links to the south why didnt they build them, instead of waiting for the southerners to build north. When asked why the family left Scotland he replied "amyone with get up and go, got up and went. Lovely to visit, but dark, cold, wet, poor farming, midges and Calvinism ".
North-south railway?
More like a Southern Midlands-South one.
Indeed
Enthusiastic but incoherent; does not give us a whole picture of anything, just bits and pieces with no explanation. E.g. what is the fragment of map at 1.13, when and for what purpose was it made, and what does the whole map it comes from look like? What was there of a railway network surrounding the two lines you trace at their various stages? In particular, what are the routes of the other lines you mention as interacting with them? It’s all enormously frustrating.
Essentially I agree with you. I wanted to tell a story of two lines I know well and how they pretty much were racing to connect the south, northwards. My concern was I was already VERY heavy on the graphics and felt more context would just a be a 45 minute video of me explaining railways. Trying to get that balance of story telling and the boring bits is hard work and I agree I didn't hit the right vibe here.
So has Rebecca been demoted from co-presenter to camera person? For shame, sir!😂
We need Added Rebecca!
She does what she does.
...and very well too.@@pwhitewick
Mar-Quee of Aylesbury? 🤣 Mar-Quiss!
Always get that word wrong!
1800s, not 1800's - no apostrophe required, even if Yanks put them in!
Reuse the original disused stations and lines for towns and cities
The good and bad sides of capitalism in action
Little of that has to do with ''capitalism'', as if it even exist in reality and not only in the abstract, like all ideologies, whether economic, political or otherwise... most if not all the things people point to and call ''capitalism'', are ether elements of an advanced economy or elements that seem to advance economies, or are products of commodification... or indeed, as so often, a some combination of these real tangible things... there's no need to be theoretical when you can just be descriptive.
HS2 will be scrapped it’s too expensive.
Imagine all that money feeding into our economy.
@@pwhitewick There is no money it's all forward loans - it won't come back into the economy it will go to tax cuts (for the wealthy) to influence voters.
Can you imaging the UA-cam videos in 50 years - Son of Paul tramping through the long grass "here is the route of a failed railway project, over there is the portal that would have taken trains to Euston Next week we fly the drone over the tarmac around Manchester that would have been the station area"
It's to useless compared to a normal railway.
@@pwhitewick The only good thing about HS2 is its some thing or some where, for at lest some of that printed fiat money (that our government keeps on printing, cause debasement of Sterling is somehow never talked about) to go to... or else it would massively further debase Sterling more than it already is being.