When Maps Go Wrong: The Mystery of the Misidentified Roman Road
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
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Welcome to this weeks video in which we try and solve a Roman Road mystery that has been bothering us for an age. High up on the Ridge between the Deverills and Salisbury you found one of the most earthwork populated areas in southern England.
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Credits:
Maps: OS Maps 2023 Crown copyright. Used with Media license.
Maps: Google Maps
Maps: National Library of Scotland.
Music: Artlist.io and Epidemicsound paid license on all tracks.
Pictures: Unless stated.
Grims Ditch Map: NordNordWest cc 3.0
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Thank you. I noticed on your map a part of the land labeled "coppice". Could you possibly stop at one of these areas and explain a coppice and show what it looks like?
@@allenatkins2263 Or you could use the internet and look it up. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing
@@juncusbufonius I thought it would make an interesting video and it was just an idea for them. But, your way is much faster, and thank you for that suggestion.
Former GIS mapping company employee here, I really enjoyed this! Excellent detective work, IMHO. I knew people on Navteq's Trap Geometry team. The proposed solution you two came up with was deeply satisfying to me (whether or not it's the real explanation).
I love the "deliberate mistake" explanation and it may well be correct. As an alternative, however, may I suggest this is a good old-fashioned "scribal error"? I suspect at one stage there was a handwritten annotation on a draft map for the REAL Roman road which lies just a little north of the ditch. A second scribe, transferring the annotation to another draft, misunderstood and accidentally assumed the note was for the ditch just below. Perhaps the original annotation was put in underneath the real Roman road and the second scribe was used to seeing it above the feature, or some such.
I live by the Chilterns and know Grim's Ditch very well. Some of the remains are superb and you can walk along it for a fair distance. I always imagine the people who built it when I visit. An awful lot of work went into its construction and, as you said, we know very little about why it's there. That's part of its fascination.
I think the author Clayton Hutton details in his book"Official Secret" his horror of being told by a map publisher that they intentionally included errors in all their maps. Hutton was developing the silk escape maps of Europe for the RAF at the time. I guess this shows the practice was common in the late 30's at least.
An excellent video as always, and you touched on the idea that somebody had told the map makers that the ditch was a Roman road.
Where I used to live, a local councillor and antiquarian wrote in the 1920s, the "definitive" history of the town. From the eighteenth century onwards this is a very good and accurate piece of work, but his grasp of medieval and Roman times had very little connection with reality.
Unfortunately his personality was such that nobody could challenge any of his findings without a lot of unpleasantness, so most people just went along with what he said.
I suspect the map makers met somebody, such as the landowner, who insisted that the ditch was a Roman road, and wasn't going to let them say otherwise.
It's obvious the incredible amount of work you put into these delightful videos. Thank you!
Thank you. Very much appreciated
Excellent, as always. But could I throw a different theory at you both. Ordnance Survey, as you said, was initially part of the military. Maps are *very* strategic. If you are an invading force, you really want to know the terrain that you have to traverse, and what axes you could use. A Roman Road, you know exactly what it looks like, what you can move up and down it. If you say on the map 'This is a Roman Road', and that map gets used by an invading force, they could well think "ah! we could use this". When those first maps came out, there were not as many cross-country routes. Send an invading force down what is marked as a Roman Road, but ensure that it then, literally, gets stuck in a ditch, and you get a huge strategic advantage. It might not just be a copyright thing, but a deliberate attempt by the UK military to ensnare, trap, a future invading force. Does that make any sense?
Absolutely could be. Not my area of speciality so I wonder if any military buffs could help.
I was thinking that as well. Either way it was a trap road. If it was part of a military deception, there are probably some records out there so that the UK military would know the actual truth.
@@pwhitewick Not a military buff but it's interesting also to note that it is illegal (in China) to possess an accurate map! They know the value of accuracy. Mind you with modern military weapons their obfuscated maps wouldn't protect anything anyway. So I'd say it's not unlikely. Also worth mentioning that the English should have won the battle of Bannockburn however so many errors were made (mainly because they didn't understand the geography) that they were slaughtered.
It could make sense, BUT, I don't think a 2 mile strip of Wiltshire is going to make much difference (especially with a Roman road nearby), if that was the case, this would happen a lot more.
That’s the way John Wayne woulda done it
The mention of the 'road' being labelled as a ditch further along made me think of the trap streets thing, wasn't aware it was that old a practice but would make sense!
I'm not completely sure it is, I just can't think of anything else.
It was interesting to hear that map makers sometimes deliberately put in a dummy road like Lye Close to catch out copycats. In Surrey a Lye is a small clearing in a wood, so if on a Surrey map you see a place name that includes the word Lye, it's not a map maker's trap, it's a real place, and that's no lie! 👍
🤪
Fascinating. Well done for the clever sleuthing.
Always entertaining and informative videos. Keep going.
Thanks Pauline
Many years ago we met MIS A TO Z. She would spend all summer painting and she came to paint our house? Took a week so we chatted during her breaks. She was doing it in OILS. Copyright did come up as She discovered other people jumped at the chance to do town plans. She famously got lost and unable to find her way conceived the idea. Lovely person. Our cottage Thatched and in Devon with an old tree.
"Once you have eliminated the impossible, what you have left, however improbable, must be the truth." I may not be word perfect, but I think this is slightly closer to what Holmes said to Watson, according to the great ACD. Other than that, your attention to detail and persistence of purpose is always brilliant. Well done guys.
ACD put it into Holmes's mouth a few times, and the wording is not identical each time.
"CLASSIC Roman Road"
Followed by classic Paul using a pointless stile 😂
Very enjoyable - as a geographer myself, I suggest that these cartographers may have gone down the pub after surveying this area and had a guess where things went after a couple of shandies 😆
This is common in the USA. The USGS don't indulge but commercial maps always have 'The road that doesn't exist' or 'The town not where it really is'
In America, Politicians literally build roads to no where as a way to payoff Unions.
As you mentioned Columbo have you read his book "Just one more thing"? In it he tells the story of how he was taken on as an actor "How much? For that much money I could get an actor with two eyes!". Incredible talent though. It's interesting (for those of us who have watched every episode apart from the one that seems never to get broadcast) that his character was toned down substantially from the pilot episodes.
Interesting, a classic "Roadn't" if you will
Like it
This was the best video of yours yet (I'm a bit behind, lol.) What a great mystery and so well told!
This is a great video, and one of those you need to watch several times,
with a map in one hand (and presumably a sponsored refreshment in the other). In terms of subject matter, there's plenty of mileage in Grim's Ditch, if you see what I mean. March on! A big thumbs up!
Cheeeeeers Barry
Great Ridge and Grovely!
I love it up there - because no one goes up there…..and nearly 40000 people have seen this!
Exciting explore. You both make it so enthralling. Thank you for all your research. Great fun and very informative.
Loved that thanks. That was quite astonishing you finding fibs in maps. So very interesting. Thanks for taking me along and please take care
Wow, double doobrey-doo. Love it
Thank you for todays video. Always interesting to watch and learn. See you on the next! Cheers mates!❤❤😊😊
Wow, the ultimate historical detective mapwork! Fascinating. Kudos! Btw, how has no one ever written an "Atlas of the World's Trap Streets"?
Now that would be an undertaking.
I enjoy Rebeccas expressions she is awesome. Thank you to the both of you for your interesting vlogs :) "Doesnt smell like a Roman Road" after sniffing ground lol lol
I love the concept of "trap streets". But do they occur on GPS or have postcodes LOL. Thanks for yet again a great video.
Great video! Bingo, you read my mind to this predicament well.
I have an alternative hypothesis. Land developers are notorious for labeling their projects with names that are good marketing but don't in any way reflect the physical nor local fauna. e.g Pheasant Meadow townhouses, Le Chateau mobile home lots, Via Romana development zone
Absolutely fascinating video; thanks to you both!
Ooh, Holmesian Fallacy there right at the end (and don't forget Conan Doyle believed in fairies) 🤭
Sorry, you got there before me.
When is a ditch not a ditch? If it is a Roman road disguised as a booby trap! Great job Paul and Rebecca.
Great video as always. Not only learning about history, but some interesting trivia as well. Brilliant!
Thank you for sponsoring, yfood! I was on a prescribed meal replacement thingy for a while, and I rarely ever felt so good from being well-nourished. It sounds like an amazing thing to make more commercially available!
We love it largely for the nutritional value
The two of you are always refreshing to watch! Thank you1
Top notch and full of thought provoking interest as always.
Always interesting and totally fascinating to journey with you on these er... well.... journeys. More please.
Excellent video full of intrigue. Great work Paul & Rebecca.
top notch. y'all are brilliant.
Awesome video guys! Keep up the amazing work.
One of the early founders of the Ordnance Survey, William Roy, was an antiquarian. I think he was responsible for OS maps having different fonts for labels of Roman and prehistoric sites. That would be an interesting topic for a video, to me at least.
Interesting. Thanks for this video.
Cheers Don
All very interesting guys. The periods I certainly cover are 1. Mesolithic through the Bronze Age into the Roman. Then 2.onward in time with the accent being on buildings and into the late medieval. 3. The Stuart period, Georgian and Classical, Nash, Wren et al. Back to the Roman period and bearing in mind, having spoken with an ex Ordnance Survey chap, who told me that when they were in the field surveying to ask professional men who were local, Vicars, Gentry and landowners, ask what is this place called. Right at the very very foot of list is local people leaning on a gate and preferably to be avoided! They were in Swanage, Dorset in 1800 and dot and asked what is this place called, They heard it as Swanage. It was in fact Swanwick but in broad Darzet parlance the typical A-Saxon ending (WICK) sounded like ICH or ATCH or AYDCH. With that thick dialect it could have been ADGE to their ears. They opted for SwanAGE. Wrong!! Not so long ago everything "old" was called Roman. I was speaking with an old feller some 12 years ago in Bosham (Sussex seaside) and he waved his stick over a flint wall and told me that around the time of the First War when he was a lad there were Roman barns in that field! In the times of Dr. Wm. Stukeley, Antiquarian, everything afore the Normans was Roman, including Stonehenge. Before those times God formed the earth and the mountains some 5 thousand years BC. Before that there was nothing! The Geologists had some sorting out to do. Anyway, I'll bet Grimes Ditch was also lumped in with the Romans. The surveyors in times past weren't going to be pratting about for hours on end trying to discern a (pre-Roman) dyke from a Roman road, they had a job of work to bring to a pitch before dusk fell. That not road from Old Sarum headed in a westerly direction and plunged into the Mendips and the lead mining country. As it nears Sarum and still while on higher ground the red dotted line indicates the surmised (guessed) route and on the Ord. Survey Roman Britain Map it heads straight as a dye for Sarum. Probably not feasible as the terrain dips into the various river valleys that head for the sea and gathering together on a floodplain that is New Sarum (Salisbury). If the road dipped sou' east descending the scarp towards Wilton it could easily follow the old Bronze Age river edge to join the Badbury to Sorviodunum Roman road and ford or bridge just one river and with Old Sarum in its sights (the old ford here is very visible still). This Roman road further up exhibits an untouched agger, a short section (less than 30 yards) at Skew Railway Bridge and the railway has carved a wicked swathe though it. It then climbs through Salisbury suburbia and literally dives into front gardens and under driveways before it gains Old Sarum!
My first thought was... Trap street. Was chuffed when it came up in the vid. :) Great vid as always guys! :)
Fascinating! Do we know for certain that Grims Ditch/Dyke was actually constructed or could it be some sort of natural feature - like say - the edge of the Ice Sheet from the last ice age which had accumulated anything carried to the edge of the ice?
Roman Roads are taught in schools these days (at least when I was at school) down to how the roads were surveyed and then built with layers and ditches et al. They are almost always in straight lines (although it sort of begs the question - if you were going from Londinium to Exe castra and you lost sight of the endpoints, how did you make sure you got where you wnated the road to go?). So looking at an old map witha wiggley Roman Road you can almost say without going there that its probably incorrect. I do like the reasoning for why, though. Why do all that surveying yourself when you cans steal it from somebody else.
Yep, that is what it most certainly is, a trap road... Great episode guys...
The only issue I have with the trap street theory....
Like you say, it is miles from anywhere, why would you be worried about people copying one of the least-likely-to-be-copied areas over something like a town or village?
For proof that they have indeed copied you. Location is irelavent.
Ideal place for a trap. Interesting enough to include on a copy but remote enough that 1) it would be a pain to verify and 2) it would not impact too many legitimate users.
Excellent video as always, before you starting saying it was a trap street I was inclined to guess that maybe the road/track as the whole route was referred to as "roman road" by locals, however the section where it follows the ditch was a diverted route at the time of the map being made, where maybe the land owner prevented people from walking through their land, so was still known to those using it as "roman road". Although as the old maps say "roman road (track of)", my theory isn't that plausible.
I have another theory from experience when digitising maps on a large digitising board by hand as we used to do before scanners. The rule was that at the edge of a map you would often find a road turning into a stream because of the mislabelled join. My digitisers pooh-pooed the claim until they found a case! So it could just be a drafting mistake by a dozy junior map maker that was not picked up.
I have heard that putting traps on maps to fool copiers was an a practice that predates this map.
Apparently placing non-existent islands or even towns on maps was a practice.
I would need to find the video where I heard about this.
I can honestly say that I have found all the Roman roads in all of Scandinavia. Next up is Mongolian influences on shipbuilding in southern Sweden, the influence of tatties in the "viking" age, wish me luck in my very short research! After that... We'll see :-D
Once you eliminate the impossible, not the improbable. The entire point is that the improbable becomes the only alternative.
Or was that the clever trick?
I think a few of us noticed the misquote. I hope that was the idea, in the context.
Great video as always!
I wonder if, since they're roughly parallel, the ditch used to be called The Roman Road Ditch.
Just a thought...
Hmmm - interesting! Great video as always, 😊 thanks
This lightened the mood. I thought it was only Grim up North!!!
Great and interesting discovery - well done and I suspect your assumption is spot on! You do know an episode of Dr. Who (Capaldi) also explained about trap streets as well! The episode was "Face the raven".
I recall it well.
another great and very interesting video as always Paul and Rebecca , really well done and thank you both 😊
Thank you
Abfab love that you sussed this out great.
Nice one Centurion! TY 🙏🙏
You use the term "doobledoo" which was coined by the UA-camr and author John Green, and he wrote a book called "Paper Towns" which is a reference to the town of Agloe New York which was added as a fake town as a copyright trap to a map. Agloe then appeared on a competitor's map. However, when the map makers tried to sue, they lost, as some settlers had built a small town in the same spot and called it Agloe because of their original map. So the paper town copyright trap became real.
Not quite doobledoo was introduced by Wheezy Waiter.
@@theVtuberCh Thanks for the correction. Hearing that name takes me back 10 years 🤣
I feel a collaboration is needed with Map men, map men, map map map....men.
Thanks for all your leg work !
Thank you Andy
Nice to see Agloe in there; the fake place that became real. An interesting twist I saw recently on this theme is that of 'I Libertine', a fake book that became a bestseller by virtue of a prank by a late night radio host.
Or "Fly fishing by JR Hartley " which was a non existent book made up for a Yellow Pages advert, and later on someone published it for real and it was bought by many as a Xmas present for fishermen!
Excellent video, gripping from the very beginning to the end.
Great episode..
A Cartographers Folly, used to be commonly used by map makers to prove someone had copied their maps. 👍
Just a thought, re functionality of the ditches, but from someone who lives in the North, so this might not apply, but wasn't the water-level generally higher in 500 bc?
Its a bit like greenlanning so its probably an old Drovers path that was used before the Roman Road
Nice one, really fascinating 👍
“ When you have eliminated all which is impossible then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. “
Fantastic. Thank you. I've walked over the area a few times and found what I thought could be sections of roman road but thought I was going insane 😅😂
Very interesting thank you for your research.
My pleasure!
Can I thank you personally for your Yfood advert. Now im not ususally a fan of adverts but this was perfect and exactly what i have been looking for.
PS. Love the videos..
Hi paul and rebecca may be the map makers miss labeled that part of grimms ditch as a roman road
I just can't see it though.....
I wonder how many other 'Roman roads' are ditches?
My guess is term roman is being used meaning old. This happens a lot over the Severn in the Forest of Dean.
Oooooh, never knew they did that!
Eyes drawn to the "Tick Notice"
Interesting little Invertebrates Ticks!!!
🙂🙂
Amazing.
On the South West 1873-1888 map the Roman Road is a faint dotted line running west north west from Old Sarum. It is mentioned in Frederick Forsyth's book, The Pillars of the Earth.
I do feel for you. Still what a epic video as always. 😊
I suspect you are right
it looks like they were trying to
mislead other map makers
Question: do other map makers of the time
seem to have copied them or not?
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England (only) has an area of 50,301 square miles, that's 1,402,311,398,400 square feet, that's 201,932,841,369,600 square inches. Did the Royal Engineers actually look at every square foot or square inch? Wouldn't be surprised of some of the information came from locals, or enlisted squaddies assigned to do the legwork, who didn't even know what a Roman road looked like.
Very interesting! A deliberate error to trap the unwary. If this is a valid explanation, then presumably it may occur on other OS maps. Do OS still do this - and get away with it?
I think OS changed back soon after 1920 maps to calling it all a ditch.
In London there is, or was, Decoy lane near Marylebone, Brook Mews in Camden, Moat lane in Finchley, and Whitfield Road in blackheath. All of these are trap roads and none of which actually exist and I think most if not all of these date back to the very first editions of the London A to Z.
Moat lane even made it to Google maps😂
I believe I'm right in saying Brook Mews is still listed as a road in recent editions of the a to z
Very cool find. I guess this was semi common when mapping areas that were slightly off the beaten track. Less likely to cause true issues for travelers and less likely to be spotted by plagiarists?
Would love to see more examples if you have them
IT'S A TRAP! Wonder if that were the people response was after they been out for copying LOL, really enjoyed this and the editing was brilliant
Cheers Simon
The OS1 inch to the mile map shows a straight line continuing on thru the woods from the 'Roman Rd' [to the East], but unlabelled, but doesn't have the roman tag for the lower tag that those maps you show have.
I would doubt that a military/government body in the early 19th century would be too concerned about putting in fake details for copy right protection reasons. More likely a mistake that was continued on into the 20th century maps in an area that affected no-one much.
I did consider that... just seems to obvious a mistake to make
Cracking stuff, intriguing to think the Dark Arts even back then.
Oh Duubeedoo is a better word than Bonkers.
Many thanks, I loved this video.
Time for lots more abandoned lines/stations guys.I,m thinking you,ve"done" about 500 so still some way to go.Head up to Rugby area & I can show you plenty!
Watch this space. This time next sunday
£43 :99 , plus £7 delivery for only 6 (this is food) bottles I think I will give it a miss I will stick to shopping in Aldi's 😅 but your initial video of the Roman road was so educational 👍 🏴
Excellent work!
A modern version of this is a set of stairs running down a cliff near my home. The maps list this as a continuation of the road, and many GPS based maps will direct cars to go over the cliff to save going on the main road. I think legally it is classed as a road, but practically it's a CLIFF.
.
I like "bonkers"! Of course that could be due to my age... I also like booping buttons and doobly doos! Keep up the good work(?) or is it play.
The kind of fascinating & yet frustrating exercise that could have a person a Roman in the gloamin'. :)
Salut from Brunswick, Maine US
Great theory! I love it
awesome video .....loved it !!!!. 👍👍
Thanks 👍
Yes it is defo Map time again!!! - Where would we be with out Maps??? LOST!!! 😄🚂🚂🚂