Guitar Players Who Don't Learn Theory
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- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
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Andrew Wasson of Creative Guitar Studio
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The untrained, by ear player who later studies theory.... Has the biggest advantage in my opinion... No limits to their playing.
macleanclassics no limits in understanding theory or being able to read a chart. I'm an ear player and often realise I get limited by/to what I've heard just like with language.
I agree. By ear players know how to just feel out their own music, but a lot of classical players HAVE to have their music in front of them. However, when the by ear player LEARNS theory, they can do both.
macleanclassics Maybe, but in my opinion it's just illusion. Ear players are inherently musical genius to begin that's why they still excel even with less theories on hand, but had they incorporated theory early on or even almost simultaneously they could have achieved a lot more, competency-wise.
That is my story, right there.
When I started playing guitar, your choices were lessons, learning from your friends who took lessons, or teach yourself with an artists' recorded work, and a whole lot of time.
There were no resources available, for the most part, and guitar teachers were teaching in bite sized chunks, so as to keep their students, and keep earning money.
For several years, I worked with my record player. It took a considerable amount of time to figure out songs, a little at a time. However, it developed my ear a whole lot.
Later, I got married and had kids. My playing time was reduced for something far more important. However, during times where I didn't play, I taught myself what goes where and why. When I would pick up my guitar, I would apply it to my playing, and my playing and understanding expanded exponentially.
A number of months ago, someone I respect asked me if I had perfect pitch. No, I don't. I just know what to do, and when, without really thinking about it. I can play a melody that I have never played before in under a minute.
I'm not limitless, though. I just know my limitations, and minimize them.
Paul McCartney learned that way
Honestly, I'd love to understand theory more, it's something I'd love to learn. But it's just so boring trying to do it, it makes playing guitar work. I want to understand it, I hate trying to learn it. Respect to those who can/do though...
It seems that after playing for many years by ear you plateau after a while and don't get much better. Learning the modes, cages system., sequences and stuff, alphabet .etc really took it to another level for me. Knowledge is power, that is the truth.
I know that learning theory will make your music production a lot better and quicker, but I just wanna rock out and have some fun
I have been playing by ear and just learning songs for over 25 years. Yes, through the years I picked up a bit of theory here and there on my own, I understand the circle of fifths and how scales are constructed etc, but never was able to apply it in any practical manor. I have just recently really dived into theory and learned all the basic modes and it has really helped tie things together and opened up the fretboard to me. In a very short time my improvisation skills have jumped up several levels. And I am just at the beginning!
Also, I have never really written anything before but have suddenly found myself writing riffs and chord progressions. Not to mention it is making it easier to learn new songs since I have a better understanding of how things are generally constructed.
The kicker? It really isn't very difficult at all. It just takes some time.
Yep. Nailed that completely.
Can you give some suggestions on what methods worked for you to learn theory and what sources of training did you use? I am in the same position, learned different songs through tabs and ear and then memorizing the whole pattern for a song. I also understand circle of fifths but can't apply anything to what I am doing on the guitar.
I would really appreciate your input. I have tried to watch many videos on theory but I keep getting lost along the way.
Tyler Larson's Guitar Super System (from "Music is Win" youtube channel) on Udemy is what I have been going through lately. He not only covers all the basics in an easy to understand format but shows you how to use them in a musical context. Through the 31st he has a Halloween special and his courses are only $10 if you use the promo code 'Halloween'. I already had bought Guitar Super System 1 and 2, and with the Halloween special got another two of his courses.
www.udemy.com/guitar-super-system-level-1-unlock-your-potential/
I recommend getting both 1 and 2. For $10 each, why not? And there is a 30 day money back guarantee, so if they are not working for, you get a refund.
Not mention this channel has what looks like a really good course. I really like his perspective. And I may purchase his course at some point, when I am ready get more in depth, but for now it was hard to beat $10. Sorry Creative Guitar Studios, for suggesting another course on your page. I really do like your stuff. And while I think your course is a great value I just wasn't ready to spend that much cash right now.
I also watch several others, like this channel, to get different perspectives. Music theory can have so many different approaches and I appreciate seeing them even for stuff I already know. You can learn something from pretty much everyone.
But whatever course you end up taking, find the one that is working for you and stick to it. If it works for you and it is well thought out there is a method to the madness and following it will get you where you want to go.
Learning theory definitely opens up the fretboard. What also helped me was learning every note on the neck, which isn't that hard(there's a fun app that lets you play around with that), and relative relationships vertically, so you know how to find a minor third, fifth, major 7th, sixth, 9th etc. automatically. That helped a lot.
If you can count up to 15 by ones, and 13 by odd numbers (and who can't?), you already have the ability to understand enough theory to take your playing far beyond tabs and memorization.
All theory is based on the Major scale, or, as it's also known, the Ionian mode. The Doe, Rae, Mi scale.
In the key of C, the notes are C, D, E, F, G, A, and B. If you were to play those notes, in order, over two octaves, ascending, they would repeat (of course) themselves.
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B
That's 15 notes, right?
The "spelling" of the Ionian mode is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7.
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
To make chords from there, you stack 3rds, or play every other note.
For example, any C Major chord triad (three different notes) will only contain C, E, and G notes. Thus, a Major triad always has the 1, 3, and 5 notes of the scale. A C Major 7 chord will have, C, E, G, and B in it.
That's where counting odd numbers up to 13 comes in.
That's the easy part of understanding it. Next follows what may or may not confuse you:
There are seven different notes in the C Ionian mode. When you play it from C to C, or use C as your root note, the sound will be Major. However, let's say you play these notes from D to D, or E to E - what do you get then?
You don't get a Major scale sounding thing. So, what are they?
Rewriting the scale from D to D:
D, E, F, G, A, B, C
To understand what this series of notes are, we compare them to the D Ionian mode notes, which are:D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#. Looking at the two, it's obvious that the D mode created from the C Ionian mode has b3 and b7 notes.Thus the D mode created from the C Ionian Major mode is a minor mode, and indeed it is. It's a D Dorian minor mode.
The spelling for the other five modes can be gotten by comparing them to their named Ionian mode. Compare E, F, G, A, and B modes created from C Ionian to E Ionian, F Ionian, and so on, to get the spelling of the modes.
What you end up with are the following:Ionian Major, Dorian minor, Phrygian minor, Lydian Major, Mixolidian Major, Aeolian minor, and Locrian minor (more like diminished).
So, in the C Ionian mode, it tells you the triads you can use, based on the mode type.
Check it out:In C Ionian - C = C Major triadD = Dm triadE = Em triadF = F Major triadG = G Major triadA = Am triadB = Bmb5 triad
When moving on to 7th, 9th, 11th (if ever!), and 13th chords, it takes a bit more knowledge to know what goes where, and why, but the triads and later, 7th chords are paramount to understand, first.
What does all that mean?Well, playing strictly by the rules, if you're using the key of C Major (as in C Ionian Major), the triads that you can use are listed above. Anything else is breaking the rules - which, in some cases, is fine. In many others, it amounts to dissonance.
What I just said will take you very far. Take your time with it.
I learned by ear first when I was very young..learning songs off the radio..I then learned theory and sight reading later in high school, which really helped me understand what I was doing. I already had decent improvisational skill, but once I learned theory, it helped me take my playing to another level. I suggest learning both. I was so guitar crazy (passionate), I was like a sponge , learning any style that interested me. Now I concentrate on different techniques, just to keep me inspired and I try to tackle the most difficult techniques I can. You get to a certain point where you realize that you can't learn everything. There is just too much information on thousands of technical ways of approaching this amazing instrument, that you can be easily overwhelmed by so many fantastic players! We did not have this information when I was young..I think I'm glad that I learned the way I did. I appreciated music more because I had a real challenge finding the right tools to help me go further. I also can appreciate the teachers who saw my potential and put me on the right path, giving me the information I was lacking. We don't always see the things we need to take it to the next mountain. I say, if you are passionate about the guitar, be a sponge and learn everything you can..but learn what you need to climb..don't overwhelm yourself too soon..frustration takes the fun out of it. Learn theory and ear improvisation, you will go far and have lots of fun doing it.
Thank you for sharing, that's very encouraging. The past few days I feel I've been getting a bit frustrated that I'm not at the level of so many amazing musicians. I want to improve so badly and learn as much as I can. I'm confident in my guitar playing, my lead, my chords, my techniques, my acoustic and electric, but man I want to be better every day. I thank God for this amazing instrument and the ability that He has given me. I guess we have to learn to pace ourselves and enjoy what we have learned as well. God bless.
Guitardudeguy TMark/Osh its more impressive if you play like that. but i think the kid that plays Come As You Are competently for the 1st time experiences an equal level of enjoyment.
you can never master the instrument. the end goal should be enjoyment.
Anita Bonghit absolutely , it should be fun...and it is. But, if you want to take it further you have to work at it. Once you get to a certain point it becomes even more fun. But you still have to do the work and study hard. Playing a few songs just for fun around friends/campfire is fine too. I wanted to take it further.
Guitardudeguy TMark/Osh ofcourse you should challenge tourself otherwise its stale and boring.
i wasnt arguing that you shouldnt improve. just that the enjoyment remains the same
I was trained self taught, I can also read in brale and I'm deaf..
How about this, people who want to be self taught, can be self taught, those who want lessons, can get lessons, and leave everyone to their own thing.
Better advice: Look good, have connections to rich people, be reasonably personable, and don't waste time learning how to play an instrument = How to succeed in "music" today.
GoddessIn Triptych if by succeed you mean making money, yeah, but I wouldn't call that succeed
Who taught mr. bean how to play guitar
Azi DeSent looks nothing like him. Not even in a "stretch anything out for a joke" way
Trouble in421 you gotta be kidding me how don’t you see it
The way I view it, some parts of music theory are necessary, like knowing how scales create certain tonalities, what modes are and do, etc. Sorta like learning how to draw perspective in visual art. Learning the mathematical side of art is important. Then you get into the REALLY theoretical mumbo jumbo, like "this chord progression gives a jazzy feel" or "this progression increases tension while this one gives resolution," sorta like how color schemes are supposed to give people a certain feeling. This is where mathematics begins to turn into opinion, and that's why I don't delve into that part of theory. I use the mathematical side of theory to guide the creative side of the brain into writing music.
Seriously, the best players i know, who are pretty much Jazzers to a man (and woman, too) are the ones who can read a chord chart on first glance. You know, the guitarist gets a phone call..."Hey got a gig for you on Friday, mainly Jazz standards, but with some pop/rock stuff thrown in if anybody makes a request" So the guitarist turns up, meets a bunch of players who they have never met before, sets up their gear, opens the chart book, and the singer may say.."Ok, number 51 (in the pad) as a Bossa...1,2,3,4..." and they play the song, solo when required, and are ready for the next song. These are the players who turn down gigs all the time, because they are offered so many because they know what they are doing. They may have had classical training, or, like most of the players I know, have started off "by ear" but decided to do the harder part. and learn the theory.
I wish I had done so. I fall into exactly the By Ear player category as talked about in this vid. And as i have gotten older, i have come to the realisation that knowing what to do if confronted with an Ab-7/Gb (for example) is something i wish i knew.
Seriously... any guitarist worth their salt (this goes for any musician, too) needs to know at least some theory, it will simply make you a better all-round player. The old saw about "how do you get a guitarist to turn down the volume? Easy, just put a chart in front of them" is sadly all too true. Being a good player AND reader could guarantee you a career in music for the rest of your life. I have met several who fit that description.
Man I hope many people have the same wisdom as you. I feel sorry for those ear players who refuse to learn theory just because it bores them. They don't know they have miss out such a huge opportunity to better themselves.
There seems to be something wrong going on with the way we are teaching/learning music nowadays. Classically trained guitarist often rely too much on notation and totally neglected ear training while self-taught guitarist look at theory with contempt. Both are doing it wrong. The correct way should be maintaining a great balance between the 2.
Do TienThinh the correct way it's to play whatever feels right to you, that's why metal is so good and full of emotion, passion is the driving force rather than theory.
The thing with theory is it doesn't take long to learn the main principles, and it will only give you more strings to your bow and a better ability to adapt in new environments. There's nothing wrong with playing through pure passion, emotion etc, but nobody that learnt theory ever regretted it.
Well said Andrew! I love your perspective!
What bothers me here is that reading music is being equated with theory. I know a lot of amazing sight readers who don't know much theory at all. They're just great at sight reading and not theoretical analysis of what they played. Reading is NOT theory. Creating a link between what you hear and the analysis of what's going on rhythmically, harmonically, melodically, intervallicly bridges the gap. Reading is great for performance of repertoire but by itself doesn't teach any "theory". Granted a 'classically trained' player will have had both theory and reading in their curriculum.
I remember when I first started playing and would listen to albums and play along until I got the songs right.. I know basic chords as everyone does... But I've never had lessons I don't know how to read notes or tab.. I have learned by ear.. And so have alot of the best guitarists around like old blues and rock and roll guitarists.. Music is art.. And art is something a person has inside them naturally.. It can be taught in theory but it's never the same when it's played.. You can't hear the feeling behind it..
Does poetry become soulless if the author knows metric and lyrical figures such as metaphores? It most certainly does not. Music theory helps you understand what you're doing in a certain moment and brings you tools to use. Think about it as expanding your vocabulary in order to improve your speaking skills. And yes, hendrix didn't know much about theory, he didn't read music. So fucking what? Steve vai knows theory, and so does Eric Johnson, and so did Shawn Lane, and the list goes on.
agree
That is the biggest misconception. Hendrix knew theory.
V HAS COME TO that only gives my point even more examples
I got my 1st guitar when I was 7 or 8. It was a full size Eko box that my Uncle gave to me. I played it flat on my lap for a few years & it seemed like people in my neighborhood really thought that I was something special. We moved to Naples Italy for my Dads Navy career for 3 years so I lost my audience. I stripped out the tuners on the Eko so it became firewood. I saved up my money & got smaller guitar that I could play the regular way along with Mel Bay & Chet Atkins Guitar books. Fast forward about 45 years & I have never taken any formal lessons or learned any theory but I used to jam with a buddy who adapted his musical training on a woodwind instrument to the guitar. It was pretty cool to see how he would figure out the correct way to play a song but if the tableture is incorrect which I believe it was on an AC/DC song we were doing then it is hard to convince him that he is playing it wrong. I see what you mean by both types of musicians having different advantages. I don't consider myself a musician since I don't read music & can't remember the names of more than 3 or 4 basic chords. I feel like I do have a God given ear for music & being able to mimic a song heard on the radio when I want to. I haven't played much over the last 10 years but I'm starting to regain interest. I don't think that I will ever try to learn Theory but you never know.
the reason I got into theory is that after about 4 years of playing, I found that all I wanted to do was compose stuff. Because of this, the little bit of theory that I learned every so often from watching some random videos was incredibly beneficial. Example: I learned what a perfect 5th was, and what kind of sound it gave, so when I wanted that, I would write a perfect 5th and not have to figure it all out just by messing around and playing by ear. Once I started realizing how helpful this was, I started watching a ton of videos on theory and got to understand intervals, chord theory, key centers, modes, etc and I was utterly expanded as a musician. I now feel that because of my interest in composition, I have become a very well rounded guitarist.
**VISIT MY BLOGGER PAGE** Daily posts for the guitar player... creativeguitarstudio.blogspot.ca/
This videos post... creativeguitarstudio.blogspot.ca/2017/10/guitar-players-who-dont-learn-theory.html
I guess Wes Montgomery, Prince and Jimi Hendrix were good examples of ear training.
Most famous guitarist really
Dave Grohl too
Robert Vigna (Immolation)
You really think Hendricks and Prince couldn't read and write music?
Learning how to read/write music and theory is like learning how to read/write English in the 1400's when illiteracy rates where much higher; you're able to learn info in a new way. It also allows you to make music away from instruments and create in purely abstract terms; which is why and how Beethoven continued writing fucking killer full orchestral symphonies after he went full deaf. Knowledge is fucking power.
I'm always "learning theory" by finding what I'm hearing in my head on guitar when I write. I'm usually performing solo so I end up learning new ways chords, progressions, and scales work all the time. Learning should never end.
...I've found that theory opens doors ...but it can also close doors if you depend on it too much ...music is still feel and emotion
It doesn't close doors. It just doesn't open the doors of creativity if those doors aren't already open.
Ja mes .....if reading a chart hinders my creativity....then it indeed closes doors ....for me personally...
Reading a chart doesn't hinder your creativity. Being forced to follow the chart dot for dot does, and the only situations that happens are ones where you are expected to play a piece note for note identically anyway (such as an exam, session work, auditions etc).
Ja mes .... ..I give ...apparently you know me better than I....anytime you put paper and dots in front of your self .... doors are bound to close... Hence BB KING. ...Jeff Beck ..etc.....would never chart anything..
Mark C I'm just talking about having the ability to read if you need to. Having more knowledge can't hinder you, you don't lose creativity by learning.
I was in the play by ear category until i started teaching myself theory and how to read standard notation back in the early 2010's. I have been taking violin lessons for the last three years and it has really improved me as a musician
Appreciate you view on this. I learned by ear and have made a few attempts at lessons to read music and to learn theory. I didn’t have any luck until a few years ago but that teacher then moved out of state and our lessons stopped. :(
Subscribing 2 ur channel and may explore your course. As a 41 year old gigging musician with a career & kids, time is always a challenge. At the end of the day I feel like I need a patient guitar/music tutor to get me over some obstacles along the way.
So true! Both "ear training" and learning music theory are very important. I started out playing by ear and developed a very sophisticated technique with an incredible feel. I could absolutely smoke most guitar players in the areas I was familiar with... theory trained or not, but... go outside my area of familiarity and I was completely lost. Now that I'm finally learning theory I can apply that advanced technique to the other areas I was totally unfamiliar with previously, thereby greatly expanding my playing and allowing me to play with a lot more players in a lot more styles. - Bottom line, both approaches are extremely important to work on.
It all comes down to why you picked up the guitar, what scratches your musical itch, who your peers are and what your musical range of interests is...I'm sure the vast majority of guitarists just picked it up to learn songs, join a band, etc. A very special case and diametrically opposed to what applies to many other musicians, like my four children, who learn music theory and how to play an instrument at the same time from an early age, say because they have access to a school with a great arts/music program. Having said that, basic music theory is so, so, simple and accessible. I mean, how hard is it to go through the Musicopoulos App's content or read something like Wyatt and Schroeder's "Harmony and Theory" cover to cover? A twelve year old child can go through that shit...Same thing with sightreading: how hard is it to spend 15 min./day with something like the Sight Reading Factory app? It all comes down to what scratches your itch: some people like to work on fundamentals and some don't. The main thing is to enjoy your ride, wherever it may lead you...
So recognizable. I'm in the theoretical group myself and I'm often so envious of by ear players. I've just recently started learning songs by ear though and I hope this will be an important first step in filling in that hole in my skill. :)
I could never understand music theory, no matter how hard I tried. It was like learning algebra. And after 15 years of playing guitar I still don't understand any of it
I feel insanely lucky that I have an optimal teacher like he's describing
I am definitely one of the more classically trained, because I can immediately tell what anything is from reading or playing it, and can improvise if I know the theory behind a work, but I struggle to play by ear.
I'm going to go in the opposite direction that the comments are going...I often get narked on for ACTUALLY LEARNING THEORY. When show some musicians my songs that are transcribed in music notation they like to go "Oh you have no emotion and no feeling" when they haven't even heard the freaking song! This video is spot on and it's a shame people are going to ignore it. If you don't want to learn theory and stuff then that's fine...but don't look down on people who actually want to learn everything about something they are passionate about...and YES people who master theory can feel music...cuz guess what? We mastered that too.
No-one should avoid so-called theory. Everyone who plays uses 'theory', unless they never play anything they or anyone else has played previously. All that theory is is a codification, an analysis, of what is deemed to have worked well in the past, not a rule book for what you play in the future. So if you play something by pure instinct and it sounds cool, so you do it again, you are using theory.
I’m a classically trained musician and study theory, but I don’t find it entirely necessary for much more than clear communication. Rather if that be between two musicians or communication from sheet music to the ears properly. As a matter of fact I make music with primarily by ear musicians and creating music works fine. I personally rarely ever use theory when recording and writing more contemporary music. E.g. rock/alternative etc etc. That’s just my experience though.
This is a great explanation on how different types of players learn, express and create.
It depends on your goal. If you are a singer songwriter/band/ rock guitarist, you should not focus on theory too much. This doesn't mean you shouldn't know basics on the guitar. If you are in this category you should know the major minor pentatonic scale, major minor scale. aug and dim chords some voicings and learn a few interesting chords and techniques. Triads, Barre chords, etc and you'll be fine. Not everyone wants to shred, so it depends on your goals and perspective
Theory? I'd be happy if most rock guitarists just knew the names of the friggin' chords! Can't tell you the number of times I've said something like "Now go to A minor..." and been answered with "Which one's that?"
MP I think you are over exaggerating.
Learning how to play by ear and just getting a grasp of the instrument and finding something that works for you is the greatest way to become a creative player. Once you understand theory and written notation its hard to get out of that mindset, however it is very easy to learn the theory and written notation when you are in the creative mindset. I personally find this is where you find your versatile players that can get high quality work out. Your players that never learn the theory generally peak in make it or break it bands, meaning that almost none of them are able to stay with it professionally, but they seem to get the most enjoyment out of playing.
Good vid. Unfortunate that so many feel the need to be stuck in one or the other camp. Historically, classical soloists have also had to be able to improvise and play by ear well. Concerti used to have plenty of long rests for improvisation. Paganini's and Bach's imrpov were legend.
With Theory: "Oh no, that doesn't make sense. Can't do it."
Without Theory: "Oh, that SOUNDS interesting. Why not."
^^^^^nailed it oneeye monster
Ectoplasmic36 good point. 8 know a little theory and I’m a high lever guitarist. The theory that I need to learn I learn. It’s like using maths in everyday life. I hardly ever use maths (please no “You subconsciously use maths” because thats also a nature, not nurture thing which we would have learnt whether we went to school or not). Personally, because of the music I write, I don’t need theory often. The odd really strange guitar chord is the only time I have used theory in years I think! So this question is like “Which DAW do you use?”. That depends on the music you want to write. Knowing theory is only really relevant for big band and orchestra and piano concertos...although pianists don’t read the music when playing live...that’s muscle memory kicking in. The learning of these concertos is where theory comes in useful. Needing to learn perhaps 10 chords and a couple of short motifs/melody/lead parts doesn’t require music theory. Just saying!
I am in the process of learning theory. It has opened up a whole world full of song ideas for me.
Garegh62 put your $ where your mouth is. You say "i can play whatever you can..etc" i bet you can..i just showed you how with theory. ;)
In reality I've found the opposite to be true. Players that don't know theory often fall into the most consonant ideas, playing very basic things. If you learn where the "lines" are, you can deliberately cross them for creative "out" sounds. When playing solely by ear, players often stick to safe things, somple chords, pentatonic box solos etc. Of course everyone is different.
I think the word theory is what holds back some musicians "you mean its just a theory? they never proved it??!!!"
I have studied classical music the traditional way till the 3rd degree on piano. I've self taught myself how to play the guitar totally by ear. I find that studying classical music helped me do this better.
What guitarists need to understand is that 'theory' is not the same as 'reading music', and my issue with this video is he's talking like they're the same thing when they're absolutely not; if that were the case, then classical musicians would be the best improvisers.
Reading music is just knowing how to read the dots on the staff, theory is actually knowing musically what you're actually playing, what key you're in, how the different types of scales and chords work (major, minor, etc.), knowing what your starting point would be for improvising over a given chord progression. So when someone tells me "[insert famous player] doesn't read music!", my reply is "yes, but they still know their theory!".
I started of by learning of sheet music but got quickly board of that & then started to learn by ear & for personally, Its been a real blessing...
I remember playing the intro to Altitudes from Jason Becker & thinking this was the best ever simply because I listened, I went to asleep & could still hear the hole song. Without thinking I managed to slow it down in my head & figure out the rest of the song without having to hear it...
Its similar to the music app Audacity but I can do it without that & hear the song in my head after I have played it maybe a couple of times then without headphones be able to slow it down in my head & play the song :)
Pretty good argument that is fair to both sides. So what I get is... if you want to excel in ALL musical situations.. get and develop both skills.. this will translate into your desirability as a player for hire for a wide variety of situations, if your goal is to have lotsa fun and make $$$.. have an open mind, become teachable, stay that way.
The guitarist that learns theory will be able to summon up any mood while writing a riff, song or soling.
After all we know mode = mood and every mode has a distinct feeling Ionion=happy - aeolian=sad -phrygian maybe a littledark
locrian somewhat twisted-mixolydian=bluesy you get the idea, wanna play something that sounds like its from outer space ? try augmented and much much more XD
People need to understand that theory isn't a set of restraining rules, it's just a way of understanding music. When you hear something cool in a song and want to insert the idea in your songwriting or phrase or whatever, you need theory to know what that thing is. Theory is just a convention to put names on musical concecpts that are common throughout all of western music
First off, what a great video. You really hit the nail on the head about classically trained vs ear trained guitarists. I think most of us struggle somewhat with the issues you talk about.
Secondly, you mention Lenny Breau. For my money, he has to be one of the best players I have ever heard. Anyone reading this should do themselves a favor, and check out his work.
Haha
When I was in elementary school, I hated music class, which was just learning theory and playing recorder. But at the back of my mind, I knew I wanted to be a musician. I started playing guitar in 7th grade 2 years ago
Also Some people learn music theory on another instrument, then apply it to the guitar, i felt no need to learn theory on guitar as i learnt it on violin, witch made it very easy to play allot of things with feeling and depth compared to my peers that had only played guitar by ear, over ten years i slowly practiced theory on guitar but everytime i practiced somwthing id learnt on violin on guitar it effected my playing and i found it months before i could improvise again as truely me, in the end i decided to learn allot of it, from my view it is extremely valuable but not as valuable as my many years of improv by ear after classical training on violin, i defiantly had more feeling in my playing before practicing theory on a guitar there is somehting to say about just playing and not practicing, with the given situation of swapping instruments
Being a L.U.D.ite (Lefty Upside Down) player has sent me down a zig zag road. Ear trained first, (I tell people my first instrument was the radio and my dad's Soul Jazz & Bebop Album Collection. My first live show was Buddy Rich when I was 8 years old ) I learned note by note, listening to albums owned by my family- dad, aunt, uncle. I was a single note player....Hendrix, Santana, BB King. I was always listening to music that was more complicated than I could play. So the ear was developing beyond my playing ability. Eventually learned chords in a blues context, Allman Bros, Grand Funk. And eventually got a year of music theory in High School. I was already known for my lead style. I had been writing songs by ear for years using chord boxes. Learning classic Sonata Allegro song form, really helped me begin to cross my ability to read charts along with producing better original compositions. Even BB King in his 80's was continuing to educate his playing by learning music theory. Where ever you are in the spectrum. Learn theory AND train your ear. Hum the notes in your head. know the names on the neck. And match them to grand staff. When you can hum the notes while looking at the page, you will have conquered "sight reading" and have an awesomely trained ear. Good Luck.
I fall into the "by ear" group. I started very young with lessons for about a year at 11 years old. After that I went the "by ear" route. After 24 years, I'm trying to get off my tail and force myself to learn scales and theory. It's a double edged sword. Really enjoyed this video!
One eye monster...great reply mate. Longer than some of mine which is going some. All the Ionian and Phyphagian and the other weird words are more suited to piano...because guitars are microtonal. Which makes a difference when you learn which strings to pitch bend a little to warp the note between the 12 note western scale. I’m just one of those musicians (I play several instruments) who hasn’t needed a song sheet or even tab. I may be wrong but I just don’t see the need to know theory for rock...even something like Bohemian Rhapsody. Me thunks anyway.
People play by ear because it pays off, independently driven, interpreted by themselves. Sounds like both are needed in some ways. Thanks, this was a nice analysis of detailed info by a knowledgeable player.
It's funny, for the first 6ish months of playing guitar I was self taught and tried to and continue to try to learn as much theory as I possibly can while still doing things that are different
Edit: when I say self taught I really mean Internet-and-book-taught
This Gentleman is genius. I hate being shite upon by those playing on nylon strings. Those people who totally disregard anything not faithfully reproduced off tabs. "Roll Over Woody Guthrie"
.... but can I just play for fun? I tried theories and reading music, but that sucked and made me quit for 4 years...
also, ask Eddie van Halen his opinions on going by the book... just sayin'.
I remember years ago spending a lot of time learning most of Allan Holdsworth's amazing solo in 'Proto Cosmos' (though not as fast!), from the album, 'Believe It' by Tony Williams Lifetime. It started in Maybe B min. or A min., I forget, but I assumed I could simply transpose whatever I'd learned from it, to whatever minor key any of the songs the band I was in were doing. So the moment we started playing one of our 'more typical' rock or prog rock type songs, it only took a few seconds to realize that Allan's solo would not work in such a simple, common format! That's when I realized all those chord changes underneath (especially the unusual chords!) in 'Photo Cosmos' were very important, and that the solo wouldn't simply work in a more typical setting! Lesson learned!
I am an ear player that's how I learned. I feel limited. So learning theory could be helpful . Can someone give me a good def. Of what guitar theory is and maybe a good beginner workbook.
I learned guitar by ear because theory on guitar makes no sense. Then I tried that on a MIDI keyboard and discovered that my ear couldn't hear anything that wasn't a guitar tone so I had to learn theory. Theory on a keyboard makes perfect sense. And my year on keys has pushed things to an entirely new level.
On the flipside, I'm a drummer, I play guitar by ear, started self-learning half a year ago now, but I only use it for writing.
Before that, I just wrote random melodies, which sounded extremely complicated, but the guitarists were always impressed enough to try and learn to play whatever the hell I was writing. Because I knew music theory, but not playing the Guitar.
Great lesson Andrew pls make a video on higher neck soloing .
Seems to be a pattern where a lot of ear players pick up a guitar when they're around 11-14 years old, usually by their own choice, whereas a lot of classical players seem to be pushed into music by their parents around 6-8 years old. Met a doctor in the latter group who said he kind of hates playing music as a result of it not being his choice. Cool vid and channel.
Nice, well balanced conversation that highlights the value of a well rounded training regimen. It very often that you see someone from one side of the discussion with there head so far up their butt they can only slam the other side. Super video!
Guitars players who think the ONLY way of playing-learning is with music theory are usually the type of musician who's plainly boring to both play with and be with. He/she has a lot of knowledge, but doesn't have that "feel" part when it comes to playing. In fact, any musicians who are all about the knowledge and fattening the brain with just knowledge, in my opinion, their music is yeah complex, but boring overall. They can come up with crazy complex melodies, but doesn't have the feel.
I think guitar players who don't learn music theory are almost as bad as those who are classical trained and aren't comfortable in playing anything that isn't written on a sheet.
Joe Satriani once said on YT and I'm paraphrasing, "Hendrix never had a lesson and never played a scale but he was the most proficient of us all"... That says something...... Also Hendrix said he wanted to take a break and take some lessons... That was on The Dick Cavett show I think..... And that says something also....
Guess I fall into the "learn by ear" category. I never have thought of it that way though. I have always heard the music in my head and tried to reproduced it on my guitar. It never really has been trying out shapes or chords until I find something that works. I always hear the end goal in my head first and make it happen.
But... does it Djent?
TheEnizeo yes it does "Djent"
Stupid and annoying. Be original.
Djent is garbage. Let's just sit here and have a masturbating seizure on our heavy downtuned string
Does it djoint? or duh-jent xD
original enough? :P
my type of person right there😂
I've just finished classical training and have about 60 minutes of concert repertoire under my fingers.
Now, my classically trained friends look at me funny because I'm moving on to learn jazz and blues.
This video is spot on. Right now, structure is my comfort zone. But I insist on starting basically from scratch and learning to play by ear. Now, when I learn the patterns, I'll understand the why.
In 5 years I will be fluent in both structure and flying by the seat of my pants. I CAN'T WAIT!
I spent years, decades even playing and learning Joe Satriani and Steve Vai songs. If I didn't do any of that, left the guitar alone and instead trained my ear and learned composition I would be about a million times more of an original and better guitarist than I am now. That thought really pisses me off.
Stuee no dude you are just not creative learning theory won't make you an artist
If you learn music at school and it takes it is a huge advantage. We are fearless and curious at that age.
I didn't unfortunately! But like others I picked up guitar (seduced by rock and image) but soon realised I need to understand more. I got in a huge rut.
Learning never stops! There are weird arcane rules in classical theory like "don't play consecutive fiths" - tell that to Ritchie Blackmore! The trick is to ignore this stuff. There are no rules really so don't be constrained.
I have enormous respect for the guys in the a wrecking Crew, Tommy Ted Esco etc. They could do anything including faking it (well)! But they were superb musicians, just awesome. I'd die and go to heaven. Glen Campbell, another unsung hero who could read and improvise.
Reading taken up later in life is hard slog. Unless you need it my advice is don't bother but understand theory like intervals etc.
Without theory I'd be in trouble as a working muso, understanding the basics is essential to transposing and harmony.
This guy is dead on the money.
I don't know if somebody said this, but there is a 3rd group of guitar learners out there. I had studied violin classically before I ever tried to learn the guitar. I have no idea if that knowledge helped me or not.
Odin029 Intersting. I grew up at a young age playing trumpet and learned to read music throughout the course of my schooling. I played in jazz, marching, and symphonic bands. I could read music fairly well but never had the opportunity to solo or improvise. I stopped playing before college, but now that I am learning the bass, I'm learning by ear and pattern as opposed to theory bc I feel I have the sort of built in intonation and pitch, etc. I can't read music as a bass player, so I'm kind of curious to take some lessons and see how theory sits with me in this regard....
Interesting vid, although I've not been classically trained I've always felt my theory is better then my practical knowledge and always ask questions when something different crops up. for example a surprise Major III chord in a progression - what is the mechanics that makes it work? or in Let it be what makes the B flat Major Chord work in the descending chord progression of the riff?
Without a little bit of theory I wouldn't be able to know that while a modal scale is stable adding a little instability with the of key notes can create something beautiful.
Well... when I was taking guitar lessons, I started with 'Alfred's Basic Guitar Method; books 1-6)....... It had nothing to do with learning 'shapes' or anything...
Then my lessons went to Mel Bay's 'Grade 3' which still didn't consist of learning 'shapes' of any kind...
I didn't even learn tablature until my 3rd year of lessons.. But, I taught myself it(it wasn't part of my lessons at all)!!!!!!
So the overall rounded player is the better player is the summery of the video !
I am definitely trained by ear (and self taught for the most part) and I am quite fast and quite good. My skill is in freestyling, when I am really vibing and in the zone I can spontaneously play something almost as good as i can if i have been practicing it for awhile, in fact i tend to suffer MORE with recited songs. This makes me a talented composer, and i can hear a riff and figure it out and play it by ear within the next 10 or 20 seconds usually. However my roommate is also a music producer and currently in the process of training himself classically, and i have watched him increasingly doing math problems in his head to find the next "transposed 5th of the ionian scale" or whatever , each note takes him about 5 minutes to even figure out and i've watched him play the same bar on a loop for literally an entire day and it sounds leagues worse than his older stuff. Meanwhile i will show him some collection of notes that is in the mode i find captures the emotional quality i'm looking for, and ask him if there is a musical term for the "je ne sais quoi" of what that artist is doing--i can't describe it, but i can play it, and if i could say it, i could research it and find how to do it better, but he can't even describe to me whether there is even a name for that specific kind of triad. If you ask me, being a talented and creative musician is about mental latency--you'll have no room left for improvisation if you bog your mind down with unnecessary details and formulas only box you into repetitive patterns. Learning new structure is only good for giving you a jumping off point, or breaking repetition caused by muscle memory.
it's difficult for me to imagine how someone lacking a "good ear," or an intuitive understanding, could make music that anyone would actually want to hear, so I regard that attribute as an essential. But, too, for some years I was able to get by on that "gift" only because I was playing music that wasn't very harmonically challenging. When I got into jazz, I discovered that an understanding of theory was also a must. I would imagine that very few jazz greats have reached that status solely or largely by ear/intuition. Django Reinhardt and Charlie Christian would be two rare and towering exceptions.
the player with both skills can play many styles....
with E's? (chords)
with ease?
with 'E's? (drugs)
please clarify
What about the classically trained player who is also a play by ear player ?!!?
I am that guy.
I have my RCM grade Viii I play by ear.
I can read charts and notation plus I love to improvise.
Jazz guitarist are often a combination of both schools.
I admit I read sheet music really slow. I can not sight read but I have not ever been in a position where I had to. But I never practice sight reading.... I don't understand why I would need to
Aliveindarkness Really, learning anything new on guitar can be helpful
music theory is not just about sight reading...
Thank You For That Good Advice..Really like Your Relaxed Yet Energetic Style of Teaching👍Been chasing My 1980 Takamine for 37yrs and love my Electrics's 2 , Yes I need Theory Way Much🎓✌😀Peace and Tone to You🎼
I learned by ear, then I took one semester of classical guitar & one semester of Flamenco guitar. I can write songs, but can only write what I “feel.” (I would like to theory, though.)
Contrarily, one of my friends studied & played classical flute (even second chaired the L.A. Junior Philharmonic), taught flute before her teens & double-majored in theater & opera at USC. She is a recording artist, however, despite her extensive training & experience, she cannot write her own music. She sings to songs other musicians write for her. Also, she tries to do pop, but lacks feeling in her vocals. She can sing anything within her range, but when singing in a creative manner, she lacks feel & seems “cold,” “mechanical.”
I must fall into the 3rd category. A classically trained musician who grew up sight reading everything then...fucking forgot all of it. Obviously I haven't forgotten all of it. I can read notation. I know my basic scales. But mostly I'm a pattern and ear player. I wish to Christ I kept up on the theory but it just went to the way side. Life will do that to ya. On another note I tried to jam once with a classically trained violinist and she was completely fucking lost. It was like "do you even play an instrument???" I gave her the key and she just had no clue. It was an awakening for me. Being able to read doesn't make you an artist or a musician.
Jeffrey Haefner I have heard this before. People who learn by ear figure things out by themselves and by just doing a sort of trial and error you probably are able to make up a melody or a lick from a random note. Trained musicians need structure I guess.
That's because those who are classically trained only trained sight reading, they never train their ears. Such imbalanced teaching practice leads to inability to produce music from within themselves. But it is not the fault of the theory, it's the traditional way of teaching. Though it's surprising to see the violinist unable to play by ear, that instrument needs perfect pitch to master.
Same with me. I just find it much easier to play by ear and refer to theory when I am stuck. I don't know the names of those chords by heart, especially when add-ons and unconventional chords come into play. If I don't know the chord, I just take a look at the chord to be played, learn the position, and just play the rest by ear.
Damn, I had to stop at three and a half minutes of telling me that some guitar players learn by ear and some learn by traditional methods, which everyone on earth should already easily understand, even non musicians.
While what you said in this video is true, and I agree that learning music theory is important, the other facet of learning music - namingly by ear, is equally important for players to develop their own sound, style and feelings.
That is such a beautiful description! (Learn by ear)
Anyone know a good book for music theory? A book for people who are more of the "trained by ears" type, like very much so. I've been playing for a little over a year and I'm enjoying myself through my progression, but no matter what I try I get lost pretty quick in the jargon. Whatever keyword is used, I seem to always like the understanding required to know what this or that word means (ie: the root, the 3rd, the 5th, etc.)
untrained is a vague thing. everybody is kindoff trained. i tried to learn theorie, but there is waaaaay more theorie then my can hold so it didn't work for me. now i focus on the playing not persay the words behind it, like ed van halen said once. there are no limits.
Great vid, (as usual), addresses a lot of thoughts I've been having coming from a classical guitar background.
Jazz theory teaches you both theory and playing by ear which is a good balance, you all most never get lost.
I only play guitar as a hobby and have no clue about music theory, but nonetheless its still fun to play my favorite songs and just relax.
VERY interesting. I agree with you. Thanks😁
I play classical and trained as a classical guitarists before, but now i learn any other stuff by myself through the internet.
Music Theory is not sight reading. There is also a difference between being "Classically Trained" and Music Theory. In the end it depends what you want. Most people who are dead against it list musical genius's Like Prince or Hendrix - and they are pretty rare. If you Djent then knowing the difference between Locrian and Dorian and all the modes is important and that's where the lushness comes from. I played for 30 years before I started learning some theory and it was great. Frank Zappa - another genius who DID know theory - a lot of it. I have no idea why people are just so violently against it. Pretending that knowing theory makes you a dull musician. It's a myth pedalled by people who don't have a clue. A myth. If your passion is music, why wouldn't you want to learn about it, the history, the future all of it. If you were a Poet, wouldn't you want to look at all the words and their multiple meanings? If you don't want to learn theory - then don't. Play enough and you will accrue that knowledge anyway.But it's a long time.
I spurred this Blog idea, didn't I? Ha, ha. Thanks for your help. I'm struggling to find time to work on that stuff.
Next time I can't sleep, I will put this on.
If i just play guitar as a hobby and trying to learn some songs should i learn theory?
yes 100% remember that learning Theory is like learning a new Sport, you don't need to become Michael Jordan to play basketball but when you are able to dunk oh it feels gud!
On another note - I was doing covers in a wedding band. A string quartet played during dinner.
At the end I struck up a conversation with the cellist. "You are doing covers, waste of time" he said.
So was he. Just Mozart etc. Why do these people have a broom up the ass?
I learned violin (my only instrument now) through school, playing eight years and I can read music and do pretty well there, but I can't improvise for shit. I wouldn't say I know any "theory," either--not what I would call music theory like a class. I can read and play music and that's basically it.