Thoughts on the JKA's Letter to Members
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- Опубліковано 16 сер 2023
- In August 2023, JKA headquarters forwarded a letter to JKA/WF countries and organizations prohibiting members from attending JTK seminars. This sort of controlling behavior is not uncommon in large organizations. In this video I share some of my thoughts on the JKA's actions.
My insights will resonate with some people and will surely offend others. At the end of the day we all need to do what makes us happy. - Спорт
Iain Abernethy sent this to me.
“Both Azato and his good friend Itosu shared at least one quality of greatness: they suffered from no petty jealousy of other masters. They would present me to the teachers of their acquaintance, urging me to learn from each the methods at which they excelled.” - Gichin Funakoshi
Andy, I'm so thankful to have stumbled across you years back. I can't tell you how much I agree with everything you've said in this video. I'm so grateful that there are people like you who are working to bring this art we all love back to relevance and back to its roots as a self defense system
Thank you so much 🙏
In complete agreement with this response to any martial arts organization seeking to limit our potential as students and teachers.
Hi Andy - thanks for making this clip - I first thought this letter was a joke when I saw it on Facebook … everything you’re saying here sums up the reasons why I left the JKA and never looked back 👍
I feel the same way.
I am somewhat perplexed at this, since Naka Sensei of the JKA, has trained in Okinawa and China with instructors of other styles, and even trained with pro boxers. The videos are readily available on UA-cam for anyone who cares to look, by either searching his name or Kuro Obi World. (I'd love to train with him!).
I guess it's okay for Naka to branch out but not for anyone else?
Great vid. The truth is that these organisations fear losing their power. Many people are averse to difficulty and this extends into all aspects of life. There is a duty to be realistic and that duty is everchanging some cannot keep up. Better that there is a place for the fantasist till they choose to embrace a new way. Self defence is walking away from what we perceive as danger. Being in a cult was never my intention and that led me away from the style I had practiced for decades. This letter was just a reminder of the pathetic politics that stop a magnificent art from flourishing beyond where it already had achieved great things. Love your work Sensei,
I am part of Quebec ISKF as I started training again during the covid lockdown. I "chose" this organization basically because the closest dojo doing Shotokan was within this organization. I had previously in my younger years in Kanazawa's SKIF, which is now pretty miuch absent as an organization nowadays. It was never well organized in Canada. Anyway, all this to say, if I wanted to do other type of karate, I have options, mostly through Kenpo, or Kenpo influenced karate. However I wanted to do traditional, shotokan karate. So this type of organization is/was right for my purpose. In my dojo we do have time for the technical aspect, the traditional aspect, but my sensei, through his background will tell us "street" tactics. So here's how we teach you stuff, here's how the drills for this are, but here, do practice reacting to a "real" situation. I totally understand how politics can interfere, especially when there are competitions, gasshukus, camps etc. But I feel what you should utlimately seek is a good sensei. I have never felt that I could not "train" through other organizatoins and we've also been welcoming of Shotokan practitioners from other organisations (AKS, Shotokan Canada to name a few, SKIF in my case). I mean ISKF is kind of defining a "standard" and that's what I appreciate about it. It is not an organization where you can get your shodan simply by paying each month. You have to put the effort. That being said, I agree it is not what it is not. It's not Judo, or BJJ, or Kenpo, or anything else than JKA-style Shotokan. If I had received a letter such as the one you read, I would react the same way as you did. I think everybody should stay aware that there are other "styles" and other ways to learn and not feel threatened by a bullying organization. Thank you for your reflections. It does have value.
Edit: Also, I now also realize, we are at the age of the internet. I DO get a lot of influences and input from other sources, such as you. So this is silly. I do get to cross-train even if this is just virtually. I think JKA never grasped that they can't control, they can only enlighten and inspire. Why did all those other organizations split with them (SKIF, ISKF, ITKF and so on)? Each time it was for trying to control a piece of the pie. It is if as you become too big, you become more selfish because you have more to lose.
So basically we missed each others at competitions by a few years. Too bad. I do enjoy your tutorials very much. Thanks.
Think you nailed the source of the problem at aprox 10:30 .... "I don't know any of that, so that's a threat"... Knowing a bit of the Japan culture and the disrespect of loosing face.... I think alot of this is rooted in just that... high ranking seniors, who knows their thing, but do not allow new thinking, because that would make they look bad/unknowing from the practical application approach...
Thank you for sharing Andy!
Yes, saving face is important in Japanese culture. Not so much in the west.
> I don't know any of that, so that's a threat
That may be true in most cases, but I don't think it is for this one. At least not entirely. This organization that they are preventing members from participating is founded recently by Tanaka sensei, who was one of JKA high ranks for decades. If Tanaka has something to teach, some other JKA members should have already learned everything from him by now. Meanwhile Tatsuya Naka is free to do cross training with different schools of Karate and other forms of martial arts and make videos about it.
This is only Karate politics, for whatever reason (maybe different in views or benefits) Tanaka left JKA to create another Shotokan organization. JKA feels that it is a betrayal to their sect and wants to punish him and anyone associating with him. It's petty, yes, but Karate politics has been that way for a century now.
This Cult like behavior will sooner or later end in the downfall of JKA as a major association, their position is just too undefendable.
Keep up the good work!
It already did! They behaved awfully when Mr Ohshima went to France to set up France shotokan, a JKA guy went in there and instead of being faithful to his obligation to help Mr Ohshima, he STOLE ALL HIS STUDENTS! Or tried to! So this wound up resulting in the formation of SKA, a great organization and true to Mr Funakoshi's original teachings. Thank you JKA, for stimulating the formation of Shotokan Karate of America!
I love your approach very much. My martial arts career is a bit a mirror of yours. I started Judo in the early 1980ies, added (japanese) Ju Jutsu 10 years later. Did a canadian Jiu Jitsu Style (I live in a german town where canadian Military was). Did it my whole live, I am 52 years now. As you once wrote, Judo is a young man's Game, even when you started it at the age of 9. 3 years ago I began Shotokan at a typical 3K School. I quit after one and a half years bwcause on the one Hand I was puzzled about the arrogance towards other arts they really knew nothing about. The chief instructor is exactly the 70 years old 9th Dan you once described who knows nothing but 3K. On the other Hand I was puzzled by the Bunkai. Movements I knew from my 40 year long martial arts journey where interpreted just from a Sports Karate view. At Heian Sandan I left. But I was truly fascinated of Karate Katas. So I did some research.Like you I discovered the Videos of Iain Abernathy as well as yours. I looked for a practical Karate School near me. I didn't found one. They all call themself traditional and practice 3K Sports Karate. After the pandemic I restarted Ju Jutsu ( because of back and knee issues I can't do Judo anymore). In Ju Jutsu I find more of Kanos Ju Jutsu/Judo than in nowadays competition Judo. For Kano self defence was one of the fundaments of Judo. This is the link to your applied Shotokan. Please keep on it is inspiring. Every Art can learn from each other.
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Agreed.
What’s incredible is how the powers that be within the JKA will also randomly change how they want to see a kata performed and suddenly a particular move is now wrong when it was exactly how they taught it for years and they can’t explain what it’s supposed to do now or then 😖🤷
Oh so they're the Jehovahs Witnesses of karate..
@@vietbond HAHAHA, except they won’t come
To knock on your door - you’re not good enough for that… nobody is .
Hi Andy, I really appreciate this video and also agree with a lot of what you said. I am 100% in agreement that folks should be able to train with who they want and really be allowed the room to develop and walk their own path.
I did want to clarify one point though regarding the ISKF Kata Standardization document you mentioned. I was one of the authors of that document and had many, many discussions with Rob Rielly Sensei as we wrote it. First, the document’s primary purpose was that Okazaki Teruyuki wanted ISKF to follow his mentor’s karate (Nakayama) when ISKF broke away from the JKA in 2007 and we noticed that there were a lot of errors and unclear descriptions in Nakayamas seminal works. The purpose of the document was to clarify those errors to halo out members. Standardization was a by product, but it’s intent was to clarify errors and provide guidance. ISKF always followed Best Karate. This was just to aid our instructors.
Now the second comment comes from the passage “ The practitioner can find applications for many, if not all, of the movements in at kata. However, the bunkai or application of the technique is secondary. In the IsKF the development of body movement is the primary purpose for practicing kata.” Taken by itself I totally get where you are coming from.
The part you missed, or we didn’t make clear, is how this relates to the paragraph immediately preceding which is “finally, and most importantly, it is necessary to understand the reason for practicing kata. The kata is a training method that allows the practitioner to develop power and smooth movement in a variety of positions…. (That paragraph goes in to talk about some principals of developing power including core compression, elevation etc…).
The intent was never an “either/ or” that you interpreted, but rather a “you have to learn how to move” (primary) to then be able to apply the principles in application (secondary). We discussed putting in bunkai, but then realized that there are so many excellent references elsewhere and our members certainly are free to explore them.
Now all that being said, as a group, ISKF still can move forward in this area, it is a large, “traditional” organization (whatever that means). But I have seen movement in my 45 odd years of training.
Again, nice video and I 100% agree with the sentiment, and as one of the authors of the document you quoted, I am sorry we did not make the idea that you have to learn to move with competence as a primary goal then focus on applications clearer to you.
Hope this helps. Best JD
Hi, JD. Thanks for commenting.
First of all, I think it was a logical move to try to clarify the inaccuracies in the "Best Karate" series. I distinctly remember inconsistencies in the Gankaku section re the pictures and footwork diagrams.
I found the Kata Standardization document on my cloud and reread the opening paragraphs....
"... and most importantly, it is necessary to understand the reason for practicing kata. The kata is a training method that allows the practitioner to develop power and smooth movement in a variety of positions. Some movements are large and dynamic and develop power through body shifting, body rotation, dropping, and rising. Still, other movements are more subtle and do not allow major movement and depend on core-compression to develop power." (I think "core-compression" is a term you coined to replace "hip vibration".) Above, you clarified this statement; “you have to learn how to move” (primary) to then be able to apply the principles in application (secondary)." Thanks for this statement. Personally, I have come to realize that kata isn't a great muscle memory tool to learn functional movement. In fact, it teaches very bad habits. I have had students in my dojo who previously studied Shotokan. They struggle with many things. They often want to do clinch fighting in a deep front stance, they pull their hand to their hip when punching (empty hikite) and don't understand the mechanics of punching (unless it's very linear). They also punch with their shoulders down and chin up. Essentially, they move like kata. All these habits must be broken in order to move in a functional way. For this reason. I would argue that claim that kata must come before application is actually backwards. I often teach application before students even see the kata and it gives instant meaning to the kata. They know what it's for. I see kata as a kinesthetic encyclopedia. It reminds us of principles but it does a lousy job teaching us HOW to apply them.
I think the section in the doc that reads, “ The practitioner can find applications for many, if not all, of the movements in a kata" was in response to the growing practical karate movement. Several high profile people such as Abernethy and McCarthy had already been exploring the true meaning of kata for years. I am curious what bunkai examples the ISKF would consider teaching. In the 30 years I spent with the organization I have never seen any kata application that was realistic.
I left the ISKF in 2020. My sensei gave me a lot of freedom to explore other martial arts and even let me teach bunkai. My reason for leaving was partly because I felt the ISKF would never embrace the practical karate movement and for that reason to remain with the organization would only interfere with my growth. Perhaps in time, as the old guard steps down, there will be opportunities for some of the younger members to instill change but for now, I can't see that happening. As is the case with many "traditional" karate organizations, change is a threat because the older instructors do not understand the practical application of kata. I received my 7th dan in 2017. If I thought I could have sparked a change within the organization I may have stayed. However, even as a 7th dan I was very junior amongst the senior members and had no voice.
JD, thank you for clarifying the content of the Kata Standardization Doc.
cheers,
Andy
@@AppliedShotokan Thanks for the reply, yea the order of bunkai and fundamental movement can certainly and should be debated. I think the order presented in the doc was right for most and was also true to the legacy of JKA-style karate. But as Funakoshi said "if we merely move our hands and feet like a puppet, we will have missed the quintessence of Karate-do." I think a lot of Scott Langly's work on using the Kihon to develop initially, but really emphasizing the law of diminishing returns and then seeking how the principals can then be related to much more practical avenues, is a good way to go. I have seen the same in folks like Steve Ubl etc.
I remember your Nanadan grading, I sat my "B" instructor exam at the same test, so we all got to do the dog and pony show that day! I don't know how much change is coming, but COVID I think, really taught the world what was out there. Some folks who were and are already there were there, COVID pushed others. I think it comes down to where you feel you can have the most influence and help karate not only evolve but survive. For me, it is within a big org., but I have been fortunate to have been given some latitude and have not been told I can't train with someone. I think the real trick is to really have the discernment to know who is worthwhile. Give them a chance, make sure I can DO (not just watch what they are asking of me), and then assess for myself. This has kept my karate fresh over my almost 45 years of training. That being said, I am not sure if everyone is given the same latitude (but isn't that wat sparked the whole post hahahaha).
Really appreciate the conversation, I try not to weigh in on stuff on-line beyond my own stuff. But this is a good convo! Thank you! JD
Excellent talk! 🙏
Well before this letter came out I had heard many stories of cult-like attitudes within the JKA. At the very least here in NZ it felt very cult-like, as there were many other instances that I could talk about but I would need to write a whole essay...
One instance was when I was told that I shouldn't upload videos that weren't JKA Karate related if I were to be a member of the JKA or I'd get banned...
Ended up joining a Shito-Ryu club but that has a similar problem too... 😅 It seems many Karate styles do! Mainly the big organizations.
It's a sad reality. I don't understand why this is the norm. I'm so glad I left.
Ha, ha. I was hoping someone would raise the issue being the same outside of JKA. Something I notice is that people are critical of Shotokan Bunkai, and with good reason. The bad news is that so many other karate 'styles' have crap Bunkai too. However, some of the kata application that I have been taught & continues to be taught is down right dangerous to the defender. JKA Shotokan seems obsessed with the 'look' of the kata over 'how it actually works'.
To think of it another way - Would I be even interested in a highly inaccurate pistol that is likely to blow-up in my hand? Even one with beautiful engraving and a pearl handle? Certainly not if combat or self protection was the reason for purchasing it.
Great analysis.
It can be challenging to find training partners when you are not a member (club, association etc). Also you have to accept that you are not getting promoted. (There is no one to promote you.) I have a small circle of friends and long time martial arts so training is possible. Also I cross train in kickboxing and BJJ.
The main thing is that you're training and growing. Better yet, you're not shackled by any organization.
As everyone here, I totally support and share your perspective. Funakoshi never wanted to create a style. Rigidity is death (Shigeru Egami), not just in the body, but also in the mind.
Absolutely 100% on board with everything you say in this clip. This was the reason why I left the Shotokan organisation I’d been with in the UK for 10+ years.
Great video Andy, cross train as much as possible, pick your favourite and train hard but always cross train a couple of arts a striking art a grappling art and maybe a weapons art
It's an excellent video and raises lots of excellent points. I couldn't agree more.
Thanks, Dave.
I'm reminded of dat video where one Rokas, an aikidoka, tells his story of how he started learning BJJ after some street confrontations. After said confrontations, his aikido head only told 'em after said confrontations dat "he needed to train more!" Flash forward some time, he was introduced 2 BJJ. After learning some, he was prepared 2 do a competition and his organization outright forbade him, so he didn't do it! After more street incidents, as it were, he really begin questioning his shit! Then he started kind of a new journey! Long story shortened, he saw some posts complaining about him directly and eventually his head confronted him over da phone! In dat confrontation da head gave what was interpreted as an arrogant laugh... he knew he was done there, tho he kept his aikido! He's now, 2 my knowledge, an amateur MMA fighter. Dat could NOT really have been me, as I probably woulda posted names an' faces despite lawsuits!
Anyways, these "cults" and/or their cultish behavior needa b called out an' addressed! I think it was a karateka from Japan who said something like "there needs to be some new ideas in karate for it to thrive," so da idea of evolution shouldn't b too foreign 2 ppl! One idea I posted in places with positive reactions was "Da knockdown styles (such as kyokushin, onwards) needs 2 adopt methods and techs from da point styles (such as shotokan, onwards) and vice versa!" If something like dat were 2 happen, then 4 practicality's sake ppl would b effective when they need 2 b! I could say more, but 1. I don't got da time and 2. dis comment would become somewhat of a TL;DR.
This is why i operate independently
Me too!
Karate is a Complete Art (should be), Striking (with Knees , Elbows not just punching and Kicking, even head butts, and remember Karate invented the hammer fist) , but what makes it complete is the takedown (followed by the hammer as an example), Joint Locks (mainy standing such as Wrist Locks, Arm Wrenches [Kata Bunkiai / Yandon/ Wedge Block], Chokes (Rear Naked off Godan "Hook Sequence and Front Choke / aka Ninga Choke Yondan opening Bunkai] ... having said all that there is still a place for "Traditional Punches and Kicks" when done right , the best example in todays MMA I believe is Dircus Du Plessis and the reason why he is my favorite fighter in MMA today, really rooting for him to win a championship ... he did Kickboxing before MMA but it had to a very (3K to say a dirty word LOL) Karate style, for example he slid his back foot up to his front a typical Karate kick set up, Dircus used it to close distance and land the big punch, if you would show that technique to a MMA fighter 7-10 would probably say that won't work (at least before Dircus proved it can) JMO OSS ... Duplessis vs Whittaker , two Karate Guys , it was like a high level point fighting match, one of my favorite fights I ever watched
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That is a bit odd. I recall JKA itself got cut to 2-3 branches Masao Kagawa leading one branch. Im not sure since its all too weird for me. I agree that we should learn from different branches and martial arts, there is nothing wrong about it. But I undertand if there are old disputes in Japan karate history where do one want to give up. Here in west we just want to train, no politics.
Let's be honest it's all about money. With proliferation of the internet anybody can now go and see that the JKA/Big box karate is lacking in several areas and is riddled with misconceptions about karate. My guess is that membership in these organizations is declining and they are doing what they can to keep people from jumping ship.
When I received my black belt in karate and started getting into the inner circle of the organization i saw so much bullsh**t from peoples that I admired and respected.The pettiness and backstabbing and cut troth that was going on left such a bad taste in my mouth that to this day I’ve never signed up to be with any organization again.
It's sad that it can be that way.
Ironic that Shotokan is named after a guy that didn't want different styles, just one karate
True. Funny how they claim to be "traditional" and throw away much of what the founder believed in.
@@AppliedShotokan Andy Funakoshi was Okinawan.....Nakayama and his disciples Japanese mainland. Okinawan karate taught why you practise, xyz, the Japanese, how..... brilliant clip
@@savvasperisanidis "How vs why". Exactly! And when you are shown "how", don't ask "why?"!
@AppliedShotokan the dojo kun of the organisation, alongside others I've mentioned to u in our messages have indoctrination in built. Yes ur right, can't ask y,...just do
What do you think about my karate schools idea that teaches us that thinka bout blocks (ex age uke, shuto uke) as much as attacks as blocks meaning ex. you can use age uke as a block but at it works also as an attack to the neck or chin etc. In my school we do kihon, kata and kumite but it is emphasized that kihon and kata are supporting your kumite, everything is connected. No one (if not a totally fool from a bad karate school) fights with kihon or kumite style but they are ways to support your self defense/fighting if you have to fight.
In my opinion fastest way to learn to fight agaisnt street attackers is go to boxing/kicboxing or krav maga school maybe boxing being the best but also very dangerous if you dont understand how deadly boxing can be. But ex. if I would have a daughter and she would have to go/live in dangerous/violent area I would put her to boxing school if she would need to learn to defend as fast as possible. If there would be no threat I would recommend karate as a form of art, dicipline and over the years it comes effective self defense tool but is sure isnt a fast way to learn self defense.
If karate takes a long time to be effective than it is not being taught properly.
Certainly, what are thought of as "blocks" can be a number of things in actuality. In fact, some "blocks" lousy blocks. The problem is, I have seen people try to make things like a rising block to be a chin strike but only to do it really poorly. Shotokan people, especially non-westerners, tend to make these a long-range things as found in kumite when they should be done close range.
Yea that sounds really strange if someone is seriously trying to attack with rising block from long distance. Ive never seen that kind of action. In our school also Koryu Uchinadi is teached. I dont know if you know this. I guess its old school close combat fighting which reminds me what we used to do also in krav maga back in the days when I was training KM..@@AppliedShotokan
I was in JKA for too long ... it is a sect !
I would describe it as a collective of hard heads. Real thick heads who view themselves superior to all other martial arts. They are not a traditional system. Rather a modern derivative based on a point scoring sport karate method as birthed by the late Nakayama Sensei. I left it in the 1980's. The only I saw was "stronger, faster!" and a big ego.
Post below, Drisus DuPlessis , interested in your thoughts on his fighting style, its some of the best Karate style striking in MMA and so is Robert Whittaker, do to Robs Hapkido Background, I posted highlights of their fight in the previous post, (thus one of my favorite fights ever, Karate vs Karate at the highest level of MMA) and how Dricus style can be used in place of 3k sparring or how 3K sparring can be modified to more resemble what can be practical - OSS Love what you do
That letter is so "1980 ish". I had been subjected to that type of cultish/tribal mentality in my old system; which is one of the reasons I no longer train there. Unfortunately these attitudes still prevail (as the JKA letter attests) in many clubs, styles and ryu-ha. I believe this trait is more deeply imbedded in human nature and transcends Japanese or western culture.
I believe the 3k format can work if we train it properly. Aimed towards fighting and self defense and not body movement you still are practicing kihon, kata, kumite just in a more practical manner.
True. I still do the 3Ks (and a lot more) but my kata and kumite are nothing like what the JKA teaches. Step sparring is useless and teaches bad habits. The same can be said for JKA kihon.
good video, i can see that mindset of holding people back instead of nurturing and refusing to evolve on my current sensei, sorry for venting but he trash talks other dojos, weight training or even e-learning and we have brown/purple belts learning katas that i think are meant to black belts, if someone does not conform they are labeled as arrogant or rebels
Trash talking other dojos is a huge red flag.
I left Shotokan for Shorin Ryu….
Are the any politics?
@@AppliedShotokan depends on where you go. Some organizations are just as cultic as JKA. Cult comes down from Latin “cultus” meaning circle. Like you basically said, some circles want to stay closed. The word cult takes on a pejorative meaning when the circle is toxic and inhibits growth. Great video - i may go back to Shotokan someday. But not a group like you spoke of….
kata without application is utterly pointless you may as well be doing ballet im astonished at this mindset
JKA (and similar groups) have been trying that BS since the 60's..... They need to just shut up and let people train with who they want.
I saw that letter in various groups. All it did was guarantee that I will never join.
I'm a shotokan karateka and i have found a club at my university which is self-defence based, i love this stuff. I personally have lost respect for the JKA, they lied about the bunkai for years and coveted it for themselves. The proof is that most modern karate self-defence experts are not japanese but westerners like Andy, that speaks volumes.
I speak as a student of the art and i can say I'm sick of all the politics, this cult like behaviour is everywhere and when that happens its a sign that the organisation does not care about your needs. The worst part is instructors who don't let their students grow but only care about form and not practicality, while using rank and hierarchy to silence those who wish to grow and evolve the art. The end result is an art that will become extinct because those traditionalists, wanted to preserve the history instead of evolving it. I also agree with Andy that part of the reason, is it highlights how much the masters dont know, i always said im a student of the art, and we always have more to learn, but some teachers have lost that humility. Thankfully i dont belong to the JKA and after seeing this letter i never will.
"Karate is Great for Self Defense .... if the other person also know Karate" is a old Joke
JKA has always been awful.
Why is awful,sir? :/
I have been with JKA since 1965.and I am not interested in Politics
Ippon and godan kumite is not useless, its good for learning timing and distance
The typical JKA step, sparring is useless. It teaches defending silly step punches from half a mile away.
My thoughts on step sparring.
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Sir, please quit speaking truth. ;) you have a new follower.
Welcome to the channel!
Cross training was the best thing ever. i always put it off thinking "ill way until my karate is better" but if your always critiquing your karate youll never be happy so youll never explore other things haha. i eventually explored muay thai , JKD, boxing. you never realize how shit your striking is until you do muay thai haha and that snapping and kime doesnt mean a thing haha. Eventually found KU karate was definatly the best way to go as muay thai doesnt really suit 40 year olds and KU is just so deep theres so much good material there. Unfortunately i havent been able to recover from some deaths in the family and im broken and lost my way . Hopefully ill find my love for training again one day.
KU is a great to pursue.
I am sorry here about the troubles you are going through. I hope you will return to training once you have given yourself time to heal. Training is therapy.