Gichin Funakoshi Might HATE The Shotokan We See Today...
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- Опубліковано 3 вер 2021
- ❓What do you think about these changes in history?
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❓What do you think about these changes in history?
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I don’t think it’s fair to say that using the lower body was necessarily a modern addition. I do Shōrin-ryū Matsumura Seito and we do place importance on using the lower body. Obviously u r right when talking bout high kicks and fancier kicks(we only learn 4 excluding variations) but still hips and foot work have always been important. The main example would be Naihanchi stance, but also some of the smaller details like turning around without lifting your foot or having a subtle cat stance or pushing your hips forward when blocking or striking. Anyways keep up the good work with the vids!
Very interesting. Didn't know about Funakoshi's son and their relationship.
I say it's the same, cause it all depends on what the student or trainee can do on balance.
An old Coach/Karate instructor I know, would say (No Martial Art Is Better Than The Other).
It's just how well u go about the situation.
I think changes can help techniques be adapted to a more modern time or be applied in present times while still respecting g the traditional moves
I think it is a positive change, because adding the ability to have lower stances is an addition without taking away from the art.
The change I regret is that the self defence understanding of kata was to a large extent lost. Because modern karate is mostly driven by sport competition. The research and development done by Iain Abernethy, Pat McCarthy the truth about kata and actual results driven self defence practice.
I agree. One wonders why Funakoshi refused or seemed unable to teach karate-jutsu. I'm certain he knew the application of the Kata. But, why did he refuse to teach them? Did he think that that level of violence belonged to a bygone era? Did he not want to teach Japanese students? Did he want to teach them but found them unreceptive?
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 Very interesting question. Funakoshi and the others were trying to popularize karate, might not have been in his best interest, within the Japanese context, to teach kata application. There is also some evidence that by that time the real meaning of kata was on the wane. Anko Itosu had simplified, to some extent, karate to introduce it into Okinawan schools as a form of physical education and a way to develop young men. Gigo Funakoshi to a large extent was the creator of modern karate. Gigo was a big admirer of Japanese culture and led karate development down a path that might not have been conducive to further pursuit of kata as a self-defence tool. This is speculation on my part. In any case by the time Nakayama became the leader of JKA, probably well before, the understanding of Kata had devolved to what is usually taught in most Shotokan dojos, ie, your being attacked from four sides, your being attacked from a longer range than is realistic etc. Iain Abernethy and those who've done much research are unravelling much of this history. It's fascinating stuff for those who love Karate. The Karate Nerd, Jesse Enkamp, has followed kata development back through Okinawa to southern China.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 you're not your
I agree with you. The current emphasis on kumite has watered down a once powerful art.
All that are necessary for combat skill is kata and kime, but today, few understand. The obsession with competition and sparring detracts from meditation and breathing. My last teacher said to me that sparring produces "bad habits" which in the real world will get you killed. I have found this to be a painful truth.
Laoshr #60
CYKFA
It's quite bizarre really - realistic, close-range self-protection moves being misinterpreted and misunderstood as long range sparring techniques (which, not surprisingly don't work). Does this UA-camr even know about this? He needs to have a meet with Abernethy if he doesn't.
Loved the shout out to TKD being rooted in Shotokan. Some TKD organizations ignore this.
Shotokan and Taekkyon. Every ITF person is well aware of this.
@@davidbarnwell_virtual_clas6729 the Taekkyon part is likely untrue and is heavily disputed by everyone in Taekkyon and the earliest days of unification. There is a lot of evidence that this was just made up by Choi to try to give his art a closer connection to Korean culture.
@@captainbeaver_man903 There is NO evidence that Gen Choi lied about his history in Taekkyon. The "evidence" that the Taekkyon orgs in South Korea cite is that the people who are currently in the organisation don't know his lineage in Taekkyon. I don't see that that is evidence at all. Taekkyon was a dying folk art because of Korean Confucianism, even when Gen Choi was a boy. So, how would the current practitioners know everyone who taught/practiced Taekkyon? I think they can't know. The ONLY evidence that makes sense to me is testimony from people who knew General Choi in his youth. If their personal recollections contradict his testimony then that is serious evidence against him. If you can't find anything like that. Especially in a region that's suffered through so much tumult, I don't see how you can make any assertions re Gen Choi's history. I think the people who repeat these assertions have an agenda. Their agenda is a political one dedicated to pulling down Gen Choi's achievements. But, that's fine. People can say what they like. The important thing is the quality of the product; Gen Choi's ITF Taekwondo. I don't think anyone can argue that that product is of low quality. So, if people want to dispute the product's origin they're free to do so. But, again, no one can dispute the product's efficacy.
I dont doubt that he played Taekkyon in his youth but there is ZERO evidence of it influencing TKD especially since the school he "founded" (Oh Do Kwan) literally just taught the same TSD he learned in the Chung Do Kwan from Lee. What became known as TKD had no Taekkyon influence in it at all during unification or even before. None of the original 9 Kwans had any Taekkyon practitioners and the Korean Taekkyon Association denies all of Choi's claims and has a long list of lineage to back it up. There is eye witness account, Including from an early testimony from Choi himself, that he only claimed a link to Taekkyon so that the newly "appointed" president of Korea would consider Choi's martial art (at the time still called Tang Soo Do) to be taught to Koreas new military. A lot of Korean youth played Taekkyon so it is Likely that Choi did too, but Taekkyon was not a root of TKD by any means and any influence from it came well after the KTA/ITF split (especially considering Choi was 2nd generation CDK at best and known to embellish). I will agree that ITF TKD is an effective style when practiced seriously.
@@captainbeaver_man903 Really, let's see this testimony from Gen Choi. What eyewitness account? Which eye witness?! The Taekkyon association can claim all they want. I do not see how it's possible that they can talk about lineage, for what was essentially a folk art/game, with all the turmoil Korea went through during the Japanese occupation and the Korean war.
Also, Gen Choi NEVER called his art Tang Soo Do, that is completely false. That was what Hwang Kee called his art.
I started learning a Karate style 'derived' from Shotokan as a child in New Zealand. I travelled to Okinawa to practice Shorinji-ryu for a time in 2016 and this challenged my previous learning of long stances.
As some others in this chat have alluded to, long stances make progress to grappling very difficult. Kata like Wanshu, Sesan, Goju shi ho, all have transition points where one can enter into grappling, and are taught to be close-range Kata in Okinawa.
I am now learning Japanese jiu-jitsu in parallel with my Karate practice to identify and bring meaning to these transitions. Therefore I like that shorter stances allow faster movement, and I like that close fighting opens up for control grappling (as well as building bravery).
If grappling is taken by away from the old Kata there are holes created in the bunkai.
Chidokan bro? This was the foundation of a lot of Kiwi. I went Chowgar wah gar Tiger Mantis before I joined the first Bujinkan before Hatsumi went soft with the psycho Mike Gent. Lmao, then ended up Yoshin Ryu with Terry Evans and MMA. Mid 50s old dog now. Dabbled in some Baguazhang for health and weapons. Skateboarding was my thing , skate and create.Shorinji Kempo was always cool because of Sonny Chiba, I think it is as old as Chidokan,Budokan,Kempo Bushido Ryu. SKI Shotokan also had a early dojo on K Rd. Osu from West Auckland 😝
Kudos! Well said.
Well said. Longer stances work great for building muscles and slow twitch muscle fibers, and they are very aesthetic when the venue has a hard flat floor. However all the muscle memory developed through lower longer stances can be counter-intuitive to the original Ryukyu Toudi.
Long stances are great for conditioning as I started Shotokan Karate last year, (have experience in other systems) but am aware in actual usage the stances are higher
@@kieutio9697 Seishin Ryu, central Auckland. Was an Ashihara + Shotokan type style. Shot!
I was taught that the deep stances were primarily to build muscles and stamina. I use deep stances when I practice kata but higher more "natural" stance when practicing kumite. The strength from low stances gives me speed when I'm moving quickly in kumite. It was Funakoshi who once wrote "lower stances for beginners, higher stances for advanced."
do you practice "real sparring" in kumite?
I think the thing that made my stances more powerful is rather the awareness about the heel. Even though I'm personally not 100% convinced you should always turn on the heel, it made me much more stable, and I rarely stumble now if at all!
For me, I need muscle control so that I won’t be using too much muscles wastefully.
That is a fair argument, maybe the same reason I train in a heavy karate Gi 🥋. But honestly after many years I feel you should practice what you preach. It’s like living in the gym or putting weights around your ankles when training. Just my opinion of course, but none of that helps karate, if you want to be a good martial artist, train martial arts. 🥋🏴😊
@@Superpompey A heavy karate gi doesn't add up much weight to make a real difference.
You definitely should do some weight training to improve your karate, be it using your own bodyweight with high reps (30-40 reps per set), or with a weighted vest, and you will see how much your kicks, your jumps and your posture get better!
I recently stumbled upon this channel.
I studied Shotokan for a couple years, when I was younger.
Listening to him talk brings everything flooding back!!
It's nice to see a young person have so much respect for history, while recognizing the benefits of modernizing some things.
GREAT channel!!
I am a shotokan guy but long ago I left a lot of the baggage of Shotokan behind.
1) long stances are impractical in that they inhibit mobility. Mobility, not parrying, is your first defense. You parry only when you can’t get out of the way.
2) Shotokan is known for its wide movements, especially in the parries. These are impractical. Your parries will only work in practical application if they are quick and economical. Think of the way shuto uke is performed, by bringing the parrying hand to the ear before executing the parry. If you did that in an actual fight, you’d get hit before you could parry. The practical parry proceeds from where the hand is at the time you perceive the blow. It is quick and sharp and is brought immediately back to its starting place because to leave it out there, as is done in the kata and so much useless bunkai, leaves you vulnerable to the following strike.
3) Shotokan overemphasizes kime and strength both in parrying and striking. The object, of course, of kime is the development of power. But power is not as important as speed. It doesn’t matter how strongly you strike or parry if the movement is not fast enough to achieve its purpose. Anyway, power comes from speed. Speed comes from relaxing and being fluid. Classical Shotokan is too rigid and tense.
@Bobby Tawil Yeah, Machida has done a lot with shotokan, so while it is shotokan at its core, look at how differently Machida does things compared to the conventional interpretations.
This was the same epiphany Bruce Lee had about the "traditional" martial arts lol.
This video gave me a ride to the past, in the 70's I trained Goju Ryu under a very traditional teacher and very oriented to self defense, he emphasized speed, and above all kicks below the waist with a long list of places. "Do you want to kick the face? kick the legs first" he used to say. I miss him.
Thank you for the memories @Karate Dojo waKu
For me, the important point is the one made by Gichin Funakoshi in Karate Do Kyohan. He said something about kata being a training exercise, and not moving like that in a real fight. What Gigo Funakoshi said is quite revealing. I'm not sure I trust someone who discards older wisdom, just because it is old.
Agree 100%! 34 years Shotokan practitioner! Best regards from Canary Islands, Spain
I think the wide stances of "modern" Shotokan are good for training the muscles of the legs, but are actually not really sooo good for kicking in a fight as Gigo Funakoshi might have thought.
This might be interesting: If you watch " Karate Combat" this new "full contact league" is dominated by Shotokan practicioners (2nd largest group are from Shito Ryu), but they really have to abandon the deep stances which are done in "WKF Sports Karate".
Same thing in Kyokushin and related styles-tourunaments: The wide stances and wide moves may work really good in rulesets of "Pointfighting" to get your "Ippon", but in continous fighting higher or less wider stances are almost mandatory to kick and punch faster in followup techniques.
One thing about Shotokan/Shito athletes dominating Karate Combat right now: IMO that also comes down to the fact that these guys simply have the most competition experience. It's WKF point sparring, but still experience. The only other organisation that's very competition-oriented is Kyokushin (and its offshoots), but that style is currently oddly underrepresented in KC. What we also see there is that american karate stylists tend to be sucessful - again because they tend to have competition experience. The US is less conservative in this regard so it's not unusual for an american karate fighter to compete in full contact formats.
More like a rip off of Chuck Norris' World Combat League. The only difference is WCL was teams and their ring was circular instead of the square shaped Karate Combat uses, but both have sides that slope. Also, WCL didn't have all that cheesy, bad WWF/E like graphics.
@@barrettokarate Life is way better if you let go of the bitterness.
@@honigdachs. spot on
Thank you for asking what we think about such changes. I deeply appreciate this history of Gigo. I began the study of Shotokahn in 1975. My teacher had a third degree black belt in Shito-Ryu and a third degree black belt in Shorin-Ryu and a fifth degree black belt in Shotokahn. His main teacher in Shotokahn was Hidetaka Nishiyama. While teaching me he returned to Japan and earned his sixth degree. The last degree one could earn at the time from the JKA. He began training in 1940.
Classes with Master Romano were usually three hours long, held three times a week. About four months into our training shortly before he left for Japan to be tested for his sixth degree. He showed up in class with a book on Karate from a different teacher from a different school. The book was entitled "This is Karate" by Mas Oyama. He praised the work in this book as being very important to all men who love karate. But I and the other student didn't want to look at it at all. When he asked us why? We said that it was because it made us feel disloyal to him, and to Shotokahn. We were young, I was only 16 at the time. He chastised us for being closed minded and encouraged us that day to study everything possible while still maintaining the practices that he shared with us. I've never forgotten that, or any other lesson, from that venerable man. He opened mind while he taught me to discipline my body.
I have seen many times over the last 45 years students and teachers alike passing on information and technique which are poorly explained, and poorly understood, and sometimes worthless. Almost entirely based on a misplaced sense of reverence for that which came before. I am currently a teacher of TCMA. My teacher, and his teacher, who are thankfully still with us, have encouraged me since the beginning of my studies with them, to also keep an open mind. To use what is useful to me. To make the art my own. To disregard, not the form, but my ignorance and biases.
Changes are good only when they are truly useful to the person learning and or teaching. As we move through the arts our perspective must broaden, and our understanding must deepen. Or our branch of the art will whither and die. I tell my students to teach honestly who they learned from. And to make no changes in forms that they cannot explain, and only then if they are useful in maintaining the kata as canon of information. Is the problem with the students understanding? Or with the kata? Each teacher tries to pass his own understanding down. Easier said than done. Each dedicated student will become the teacher. And we hope this evolution will continue without changing. Karate is a koan. Wishing you all thats good.
Laoshr #60
Ching Yi Kung Fu Association
One of my main Senseis was Greer Golden. A friend and training partner of Sensei Romano. They both went through JKA instructor school together. Golden was sent to Ohio to teach. (OU an OSU universities). I began training in 1985 there. Small karate world.
Having trained initially under well known Japanese Karate Master in the modern Shotokan way I understand the venefit of developing strong legs and using tge hips. Hip movement however is not limited due to wider or deeper stances. Years later I met a hugh kevel and one of the higher level black belts of Tsutomu Ohshima, who translated Karate- do Kyohan, and received permission from Master Funikoshi yo teach in the U.S.A. I also trained with Master Ohshima. I then relearned all the kata and movements in tve original Shotokan.
way. As you said in this video, Okinawan Karate was focussed on self defense. At the highest level one must be able to move without any prior leaning,moving or sbifti g one's body. In deeper,longer, stances this is made incredibly more diffjcult. Any distance gained by lknger stances is dwarfed by the speed and lack of prior movements of the Old Way. This, kind of movement is actually a principle of Zen and found in earlier philosophy of Chinese martial arts. Unfortunately, thus wsy of moving has almost entirely been lost. The new ways of training emphasizing leg power, was also important prior to more modern tsining methods that are now available. After decades of experience, one can learn that greater power xan be achieved through the earlier form of movement couple with strhctural nidy alignment, and channeling tremendous energy through it directly from the ground through the body into the opponent with a fraction of the physical tension and misalignment seen in the modern Shotokan physical form.
There is actually a term for this in Chinese.
COOL you were with SKA! Me too. I started training with Sensei Ohshima in 1991 at LA Central, then at Saratoga and Cupertino in Northern California, then Mililani Hawaii. I opened Honolulu SKA in 1994.
Where did you train?
Ohshima Shotokan!
I've read almost all of Gichin's books and seen some photos/film of him in action. It's my belief that the amount of change in shotokan has been overstated by many in the martial arts community.
Gichin can be seen doing fairly deep amd athletic stances in kata. For the most part not to the degree that can be seen in modern wkf but certainly not narrow or shallow. And there's at least one instance I've found that is actually quite similar to modern standards.
What's more in his books there are several points where he instructs that one should "kick as high as possible" at certain points in forms. He also lists jumping kicks as striking techniques.
Footage seemingly from the 20s and photos from his 3rd book (early/mid 30s) show his students doing the same, deep stances and "fancy" kicks, before he had his son and senior students start taking over in leadership roles.
I hope this info is of some help to folks looking into Karate's history. I recommend everyone read all the books themselves.
How old was he in those videos? In his later years he'd adopted his son's Kendo Karate.
I’ve also have studied Shotokan, it’s a legit Okinawa martial art ❤
Yes. Founder of Taekwon-Do, General Choi Hong Hi was student of Gichin Funakoshi and he created Taekwon-Do which now known as Taekwon-Do ITF.
Same goes for the original leader of the Song Moon Kwan, Grandmaster Byung Jik Ro, also a student of Funakoshi Sensei.
If General Choi saw TKD today he'd say "WTF??" 😆
@@mikenam2546 totally agree with you, especially tap dancing scoring Taekwondo, plus that hideous outfits at the Olympics.
@@mikenam2546 Hmm, what changes are you speaking of? Gen Choi passed recently, 2002, I believe. What changes are you thinking of that would surprise him? He never liked WT/WTF Taekwondo, tbh.
@@Soldier-of-God. Ohh, you mean WT/Kukkiwon Taekwondo. Gen Choi NEVER liked that style. He ALWAYS called it, "sham Taekwondo", that's a direct quote. He always believed that it would eventually be exposed as an inferior version of Taekwondo. He always said the organisers of Kukkiwon Taekwondo, " stole the name Taekwondo".
He also said they stole the design of the original Kukkiwon because he was the one who'd commissioned and oversaw the design of a Taekwondo HQ building. That building later became the Kukkiwon after he had been exiled from South Korea.
To answer the question of the day: My perspective is that in application stances should be dynamic, the depth and length depending on the situation. My base is typically higher and narrower, however as two examples: If I need a bit more reach I will step out wider, and if I am attacking low or am countering low either striking or felling I will go lower. When just training footwork I try to flow through variations spontaneously. When I am using stances to train internally and externally I start high and sink lower as the body relaxes more. I am finding more and more that there are no cookie cutter stances, as everyone's body is different, there needs to be a training of awareness so each person can personalize it by make the small adjustments needed to avoid strain in the joints. A little wider, a littler narrow, a little higher, a little lower, feet parallel or toes out a bit or a bit more, etc, it all starts with being aware of oneself.
Lol
I did something similar. I am short, so i'm always looking up at opponents. I would aim blocks, punches, kicks in practice to different heights. I would look at people around me. Think about "where would i do this if it was him that I was fighting? How would I have to apply this? Where is my target on this guy, and that guy? How is he going to adjust to my target?" I figured that it only matters if you can apply the techniques effectively at your height on an opponent that is your exact height. Not a lot of 5'6" fighters out there, and I'm heavier than the ones that are because I'm built that way. 155 was natural for me in good shape. Some guys would cut to 135 or 125. Not me, I'm not about to live like that because I want to have energy in the fight.
I train in Traditional Moo Duk Kwan TKD and I see our long stances and hip movement in the updated old Shotokan style. Also many of our forms are basically Shotokan i.e Bassai
I appreciate the thoughts and knowledge shared and the respectful nature of the sharing.
Very educative and interesting!! Thank you for sharing of your knowledge!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!! I really enjoy your channel. Thank you!
These videos are exceptional in the depth of analysis of techniques, the detailed historical accounts of styles, and the input and influence of various practitioners, both known and obscure. It is always a pleasure to see that a new video has been published. Domo arigato gozaimasu!
Always very informative. Thank you!
Another brilliant video. As a taekwondo (and judo) practitioner myself, I always like it when you show the close relationship between tkd and karate.
You are WELL- MANNERED
Good video. I like the longer stances for most things and shotokan has become more dynamic with more leg movements!
Very interesting! Many thanks :) Personally, I prefer the old stuff, however I can see your point re certain modern improvements :)
I like a lower stance if I'm setting myself to counter, but otherwise a nice balanced evenly distributed stance is my preference.
Are you referring to tournament mentality or self defense.
@@donoberloh Full contact, definitely not sports karate as I imagine exchanging any shots like that would score against me.
For example setting myself in a low strong stance to counter/intercept a mawashi geri using a stationary reverse punch. Not good for movement but handy for the occasional counter, everything has a time and a place🙏
Great content, thanks. if you dig deeper on the history of shotokan and cover some of Nakayama, it seems like also him was responsable in how Shotokan is seing and practiced today.
Look you must change depending on the situation. I used to train and teach Goju Karate. My Karate changed from what my teachers taught......I think the same may have happened with my former students. This is fine as long as principles and the situation warrant it.
Like Shorin-ryu has Shotokan, my Goju-ryu also has a bastardized version called Kyokushinkai. :)
Bastardized version lol
@@spencerknuttila2675 : Goju-kai is a deviation of its own, of course. And if not for late Steve Arniel, Kyokushinkai wouldn't need any kata at all being a kickboxing in pajamas. :o)
I love this video. I practiced as a young man in Shotokan. I’ve also studied Fumiro Demura, Shito-Ryo
Love this type of content
Very nice!
Would be nice if you can have a video to compare original shotokan karate and then show the changes until you get to the shotokan karat that we have today.
I like you teaching style. It was very clear and easy to follow. Thank you for that. As a woman, I have a lot more strength and power in the hips and legs so using them more adds to effectiveness in defense. That is a concern when you are practicing this for self defense, as I think most women my age (52) are doing instead of competition. It does get hard on my knees though. Have to find a balance as you say.
"Gigo" was the Nickname he was given by his father. Yoshitaka Funakoshi was his full name. He died in Okinawa in 1945. He also introduced two geri-waza into the shotokan, one of them was mawashi geri, if I remember it correctly. Funakoshi Sensei mourns his death in his autobiography book "Karate-Do My way of life". OSSU Sensei!
Yoshitaka is Japanese name while Gigo is Hogen i.e. Okinawan language name. Like the names Peter and Aven both mean the same thing but different languages.
Great lesson!
Really enjoy all that you do ! (low stances lots of power less mobility.. definite trade off., comes down to what your seeking & who you might be fighting, all good all worthy !!
Excellent Video! In Karate especially and in Martial Arts in general there is no good or bad style. The question is only if it works for the purpose you are looking for. That is my experience after 47 years of training.
thank you Sensei for this video my guess all changes are good and according to your thoughts everything is change... and I say it is positive all the changes arigato gozaimas Im from san luis potosi, mexico i practice shotokan style here in mexico
Before the video starts I think he would look at shotokans current sparring (wkf especially) with disdain.
What r u talking about getting a gold medal for getting knocked out is totally fair(Ik that’s olympics not wkf but they got the same rules)
Shotokan Karate sparring has always been like that. The older rule set has first to 3 or even first point. So it is not a WKF thing.
Yeah, he didn't want sparring at all.
@@Abluemoon9112 not true. Old sparring was brutal included lots of throws and resulted in a lot of actual injuries. Today’s wkf is playing tag and yelling
@@DoomGuy-kf8fv what are you talking about? Shotokan sparring was never like that. Shotokan was always point sparring. Shotokan was never full contact. That is why kyokushin was developed.
Excellent! Fantastic!
Great video!
I hold a first-degree black belt and shotokan this was something I did not know thank you for sharing.
I took shotokan in the early 80's and visited a shotokan club last year in the states. It was almost unrecognizeable and the instructors were openly disparaging the old methods of training as well as berating the specific karate teacher I went to who had passed away a few years ago. The training was so light and toned down that it was alien to me and the karate students at the dojo looked much weaker, less conditioned and less effective and capable of surviving a fight in the real world. I decided to try a different style of karate than Shotokan. It is better to start fresh than have the conflict of what I thought Shotokan was and what the instructor thought it was interfering with my training.
I have had the same experience. We had a much tougher and pressure tested method in the 80's and early 90's. We also included jiu jitsu (Japanese style) and western boxing into the weekly curriculum for fight applications purposes. We had marauders in that dojo in that era.
When people say "karate doesn't work in a real fight", I know it can work with terrifying efficiency because I saw some of those guys in action, on the street. (It was a violent city and the school was right across the street from a crime-riddled set of housing projects.
The training methods, testing under real/non-complaint resistance and intent are what make it work.
Even present day, at 45 years old, I light guys up who are much closer to their prime than I am in MMA training settings. They all give praise to my hand speed and use of angles which carries over to grip fighting when we do straight jiu jitsu (brazillian) classes. Also, my endurance and recovery is ahead of theirs due to years of hard training. My baseline for a cardio threshold is much higher due to mental toughness built up.
Not here to say that any system or style is supreme or anything. Just saying that karate in general has gotten a bad rap due to decades of weak training methods and soft mindsets.
So, for those of you who "only" have tradtional martial arts in your area, don''t take it lightly. Go there, learn, then pressure test and adjust it for real combat. Do solo training for attributes, push yourself, test yourself, get some buddies who are serious too and arrange some hard core training. Find other folks from other styles, sports and arts and train with them. Take note and fix the leaks in your own system and application.The blueprint is there for you. Shotokan, when trained properly and adapted, can stand on its own with the best of them.
Cool work sir 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
I think the further you get away from original intent the easier it is to lose the true purpose
Arigato for sharing your Karate knowledge Nagano Sensei :D I think much of the modern changes made to Karate were negative, because it focuses itself in perfecting forms, postures and not in the essential part of martial arts that is self defense and self improvement. During years practicing when i was younger I've never been taught to meditate or control my emotions, instead they tend to teach Kata and two kicks for more than half a class and years. Karate needs to look at the past and to Okinawa in order to look into a brighter future
This is yet another very useful video! For the history lessons, can you please state your sources? Thank you.
I think there are pluses and minuses to the changes. I’ve made changes to my practice, raising my stances a little, doing more open handed techniques, relaxing my hands in Shuto-Uke to facilitate grabbing, punching before the hips stop, etc..
I'd say the changes are positive. If I have my information correct, Gichin's karate was about character development, not entirely self defense of fighting. Deeper stances are harder to sustain during practice, and they toughen up the spirit of never giving up.
Whether or not that was Gigo's intentions, I have no idea. However I think the changes benefit the original idea of Shotokan karate.
Possibly about phys-Ed for school children too?
That's not the point of self defence. The point is to be effective and a long or wide stance is shit. Footwork becomes less dynamic, Foot traps and sweeps are likely to become easier because you can't move around as well in a low stance.
@@RenegadeRangain my experience during sparring, going down in horse-stance suddenly and punching can be a surprising move, allowing you to punch the opponents crotch much easier.
Changes are sometimes necessary, also martial artists individually, will change or slightly alter something to suit their individual, physical characteristics, body types, speed, strength and particular strength ability. As Bruce Lee used to say take what is useful, discard what is useless, but always have an open mind, Osu!🥋🇲🇽🇦🇺
I learned a lot of this info from Jessie Enkamp's blog, but I really like your video. Apparently the Mawashi-geri is taken from French Savate, according to Jessie's video. Makes sense as we don't have the roundhouse kick in any katas. Main thing to take away is that karate has always involved and that's a good thing, my style of karate added elements from BJJ and kyokushin, but kept all the shotokan katas. More to learn and more fun to keep you going through the years.
What I will love it’s a real explanation of the katas , the karate nerd I think he does a good job but I can’t know it for sure .
Try John Burke's or Ian Abernathy's respective UA-cam channels. They're very useful.
The changes of the things mentioned in the video are a natural progression in all of Karate. I have been training for almost 50 years and the way things were done when I started have in fact gone through numerous changes over that time. Most changes are restricted to general form and kata. The importance of a solid library of textbooks cannot be stressed enough. The beautiful part is within the spirit of the practitioner and the enthusiasm of the instructors and masters. They are key in carrying on the way. Inflection of individual technical things like stance length and fine points are, over a lifetime of training less and less critical. Think of it like a musician. In the beginning everything is very technical and strict. But when one masters his instrument and has gold records and world tours. All the precision that was drilled in at the infancy is- while essential and had its place is now a means to an end of self confidence, self control, discipline and individual expression of the art.
I think there are some positive and some negative. He maybe satisfied with how far the art has spread but maybe upset about the politics that have divided the art.
The divisions in his first generation of Kodansha as well as his son, or the next generation that broke into Shotokan and Shoto Kai?
From a teaching stand point the changes making it easier to generate power. I do my block like the old shotokan way with the hip going forward with the block. The block is now more like a strike. But if I were to do a reverse punch there is less power unless you do a double hip movement to generate the power. This is not as fluid and harder to teach.
The current way for shotokan you don't have to worry about that.
That's a great point of view!
Very accurate what you say about Giko. To complete your historical look into how Karate developed from the original Okinawan styles, check out the Wado Ryu style founded by Hironori Otsuka. Mr Otsuka had studied under Gichin Funakoshi and Kenua Mabuni founder of Shito Ryu and incorporated all his knowledge along with that of Jiu Jitsu in which he was a master to formulate his own style Wado Ryu. So Wado Ryu in effect has elements of the original teachings of Gichin and Mabuni and more modern elements which Otsuka introduced.
The change over time is natural. Nothing stays the same. As knowledge - through experience - evolves, so should the style. Else a style becomes ossified and is eventually surpassed.
I've taken shotokan karate, I like the style the reason I stopped because I do kendo and iaido I'm a black belt in judo so I went back to judo to catch up on my judo prowess.
I learned Shotokan way back in the day and I still remember some of the katas.
Us around the world would love a shotokan style or influenced yoga and stretch workout for power and to decrease body stress during studying shotokan.
Can you make a topic of the karate master Taiji Kase ? I want to know more of his Shotokan approach. Thanks, I like you channel. 🙏
Very interesting 🙂!
I like the deep stances and open hips for blocks. It's good exercise, and good art. I am mindful, however, of the need to cross-train (e.g., with kick-boxing) to bridge the gap with the less enlongated positions needed for more realistic practice. People will say that training that doesn't emulate combat should be dispensed with, but to me, it's not all about combat.
Well said. It it were, than as we get older we would have no use…. Or actually. Karate would have no use for us oldies.
I think change is inevitable In everything. My opinion is that all of us are made differently and have strengths and weaknesses of our own. It's important to pay attention to one's own practice and follow what our own body tells us. Having said that, I enjoy your videos and will continue watching.
I personally like the older version but appreciate the newer updates.
Will you consider doing an episode of Chito-ryu? It’s such an under-discussed style, with roots firmly planted in Okinawa yet considered a “Japanese” style because it was speed to Tokyo. Fascinating history and lots of little technique quirks.
I know of that style being in Montgomery, Alabama, but not really outside the Southeast USA though I know it's Japanese/Okinawan it seems to have many unique kata.
I recall learning that the deep stances are also to build up strength as they are shortened in kumite.
I've watched alot of Shotokan videos I am a white belt my Dojo teaches Shotokan karate.im starting late in life.because I never had money for classes now I do.they train with katas.and they say they implement some attributes some attributes what does this mean.I'm in my 50s Is this a good thing. love your channel always a like and I learn so much from your Channel much respect.
This is beautiful history
I believe the lower stance emphasize the use of gravity and pressure on the floor allied to center of gravity movement to increase the power of punchs and kicks. Less upper body muscle power to whole body movement
I think the modernization of karate sparked many positive developments we can profit from today, for example long range kicks, the blitz movements for closing the distance, all those things that are beneficial in long range fighting.
However, in the process of the modernization, many aspects of the old karate that we find in kata were taken out of context, which was close range fighting. Therefore, a great of knowledge has been lost.
I propose, as karate practitioners of the present day, we ought to rediscover the methods of the old karate, while cherishing the useful additions the modernization has brought to the art.
I started training in Shotokan in the mid 80s and I remember many thought that “modern Shotokan” had Masatoshi Nakayama to thank as much as Funakoshi.
His books are amazing
In training with Nakayama Sensei in the late ‘70s. I recall very vividly that he referred to sporting applications as Asobi-karate. I have the distinct feeling that as the Chief instructor, Nakayama Sensei was not the last word in what was being taught at Honbu, only how it was being taught.
As head of the JKA for 40 years, teacher of all the Karateka who were sent overseas to grow karate internationally, I'd say there's a strong case to call this style nakayama-ryu.
Personally, I believe that the best approach to martial arts is through self discovery. The more modern style might work well for some and the older style might work better for others. I personally draw from both and try to help my students find what works for them by informing them about the pros and cons of both.
I would say, whatever style the practitioner is in. They have to find themselves within their art and make it their own. I know now that I am older, I cannot get into the deeper longer stances. I am now more of a stand-up fighter, but I admire the longer deeper stances even though I cannot do them. And I realize that all Arts evolve so it all depends on what the practitioner prefers or what they can do. I would not be good at taekwondo, I don't have the legs, but in my particular style we are more stand up so it's good for me. But I do respect my fellow martial artist and whatever they do.
Shorin Ryu
Domo arigato gozaimas
I need you to cover The history of Okinawa Kobudo and their associated weapons?
Would love to hear your opinion on the 'other' Shoto style... Shotokai? Malleable , dynamic and expansive
I actually practice this. Its the karate style that Funakoshi trained before going to Japan and the style he teached to Shigeru Egami.
@@FernandoSardinhaArts it's a real outlier in karate styles tbh but I love training it
@@Villaboy78 me too, I don't see it as quite an outlier... It's formally very similar to shotokan, despite the focus on irimi and penetrating strikes.
@@Plantamanreally love the focus required and that 'body condition' so we can just go irimi without tensing up
Lower stances should be utilized at the end of the technique, the moment of impact, in this case you are the most solid and have the best connection to the ground, once impact has take place adjust your stance
I trained Shotokan for many years and in the formative years overemphasised the length of my stances. This paid dividends in later years. By that I mean when training, and, I stress training in longer stances, when I shortened my stances for kumite I moved so much faster. The way I trained had built up my lower body strength. When training in kumite I found I could attack at a very fast speed with a basic technique such as oi tsuki or sanbon tsuki. As a side note, I visited Sueyoshi Park, near Naha, Okinawa, where there are two memorial pillars amongst pine trees dedicated each to Gichin Funakoshi & Gigo. It was a very peaceful moment, my wife & I duly paid our respects.
Good tunes in the background
"Times change, the world changes, so the martial arts must change too." - Gichin Funakoshi
I think the changes are positive.
A very interesting video. Thank you for posting this. I have a question: In regards to current Shotokan being primarily derived from Gigo's effort, what about the influence of Nakayama Sensei? I've heard arguments that modern Shotokan is really derived from Nakayama. What do you think of that perspective? Thank you and please keep posting!
I practice WT -taekwondo from a very old grand master so my experience and knowledge stems from a more traditional way of thinking more similar to older shotokan than modern shotokan .m i also have read numerous books and watched tons of videos . modern shotokan's way of moving is very elongated , which is great for testing yourself pushing your limits the self discipline the drive the determination. all that is great things to practice . it lends itself to life lessons u can learn. also good for strength conditioning and lots of other benefits
ive watched Olympic sparing and a few channels sparing and spared versus lots of styles in my life time so this next point ill be rom personal experience . if i see elongated stances i instinctively know you wont be able to move dynamically enough in a fight . Why? because the telegraphing you do when you go in and out of the stances its much easier to read intentions. AND the time it takes you to enter and come out of the stances are longer . makes you more predictable to read what your planning . . As close as i can get to a fight are ufc when people use karate. its not in the super elongated stances. its not the main focus of any strategy.
I practice Goju-Ryu but I use to practiced an American flavor of Karate with a heavy Shotokan influnce . I think if you are flexible and able to perfect the high kicks , the Gigos changes were good . If your not flexible but want to have great Martial skill then Okinawan styles of Karate are for you . I think its based off the fighter .
Never knew this about Shotokan
Oh, one part that's omitted has been emotions. Where there's heated rage. Then consider someone naturally fast, agile and aggressive, where there's also intent! Not firing one shot, but relative hard fast blows that penetrate just as far as they'll go.
I remember going through this transition as well especially when I started to compete in tournaments. I noticed that the kata’s were more emphasize and more dramatic. For a competitor what better way to impress the judges. However I believe it’s important for a student to learn the proper fundamentals of Shotokan especially on a early stage. If a student has a good understanding of Shotokan he or she can differentiate the transition especially when it’s necessary or not. I see it as a positive thing. I believe Shotokan is evolving on the right path but I can’t stress the importance of understanding the proper technique the proper stance without sacrificing good posture. Specially for those who are still green and have a lot to learn. As for the Karate aficionados they have a keen eye for what they want to see. The combination of power speed wider stands and crisp movements.
The main change was due to misunderstanding the moves and therefore, shotokan embraced harder, faster, stronger, not correct usage.
One example is the jump in pinan godan. Not there.in matsubayashi ryu. If you look at shoshin nagamine, or toshihiro oshiro, there is no jump.
Great historic lesson here. My Sensei says to shorten my stance due to a foot sweep, so a shorter stance it is. I myself like the longer stance. :)
You should do an analysis of Karate level in Mauritius! The country where I'm from and see how good or how bad we are!
I think the changes are good. I didn´t know that Iaido and Kendo had an influence on Shotokan Karate but that´s cool 😎👍!
For me, it's important to know what was, and what is. That way we have the entire range of choices to study.
I'm not a karate practitioner though I have studied martial arts. And as a person with scoliosis I've found that wider and longer stances are harder for me to do. So it comes down to personal preference. And also what the purpose is.
I love the stances (though it hurts the knees 😂)but never been impressed with the high kicks in my humble opinion i think its kinda dangerous in a fight hence the old karate favouring lower kicks ..
Agreed, and definitely need to adjust stances based on awareness, playing with small adjustments until no strain is felt.
I think they're both fairly impractical (though it depends on the application of the kata movement). High kicks are there mostly to exaggerate the movement for the sake of challenging the physical prowess (balance, flexibility, power, posture, technique) of the practitioner. The same is true of the lower, more exaggerated stances.
As long as the practitioner of the kata is told why they're doing the moves the way they are, and not lead to believe that high kicks or gigantic stances are practical, then I see little problem with it. If people are worried about losing the practicality of the kata, then they should be practicing two-person partner drills and free sparring based on realistic concepts, anyway.
I think it's a plus to have lower stances at specific times. It all depends on application and purpose. Generally, lower means more leg strength, longer reach, and to certain extent, more hip rotation. Too low and the hip rotation goes way down. Higher stances give more mobility, and the ability to switch leads easily. Too high, and you have less hip movement, and get too dependent on the knees for rotational power. Both have their advantages. For example, when we teach Zen kutsudachi at our Dojo, normally the legs are about shoulder width apart, and your forward lunge is approximately 2 of your natural steps forward. This usually gives a good compromise of mobility, hip rotation for power, reach and leg strength training for most people to start from.
thanks for wideo..gut erklerert
I was told that Gigo Funakoshi was told to make Shotokan more modern, popular, and aestherically pleasing. Hence, the bigger and dynamic movements. I was also told that later some of the JKA members studied body movements and changed certain aspects of karate to fit the body mechanics.
The changes between the three does not bother me at all. All I see is an opportunity to learn all three ways. To me, all that truly matters is the application. The journey just got even more interesting. Thank you.
I really liked the explanation you gave for the stances. Which White crane Kung Fu is said to influence karate, which a girls dad is murdered I think it was, she studied the swan, went back and kicked butt. Which it'd be good to see the lineage of katas. Which like Kung Fu has long stances, where one steps back lowering the body to apply force to say the wrist being glued to the chest in contrast to squatting, keeping balance by stepping back which would apply a lot of force, then if need to break loose, one could make distance. But Okinawans modified it to their applications.
😉,
As a seventy year old practitioner I applaud your attitude in understanding the history of karate and enjoy your video’s immensely I have trained in karate and aikido for over 50 years and feel many modern martial artists are missing an important part of learning the traditions of the old arts and place too much emphasis on competition.Funakushi himself did not agree with competition as it it drew the practitioner away from correct study of making an all round person.Please keep up your good work.