from JNelson, a Heatblur Developer: I feel like I can perhaps clear some of this up since I wrote the WRCS (among other stuff) for the F-4E in DCS. While launching from high altitude with a loft is designed for the lofted shrikes. Below about 20,000ft (from memory sorry) the calculation changes which can make it better for direct attack. The WRCS has a range and altitude bias - this is a point through which the WRCS tries guide the shrike at above 20,000ft the point is 20,000ft infront of the target and 18,000ft in the air, as you decrease in altitude this point is scaled along the this angle proportional to your altitude to a minimum at 5,000ft where the point it is guiding to is the target. There is also an angle bias too to the calculation which means if you do not loft it will account for the decreased range which could get you a trajectory similar to what a direct attack shrike might fly.
@@agidotexe7167 somebody has to! it’s i just that only the F-16 get all the fun Im mad that GS abandoned the phantom without even learning how to sparrow
12:10 Those lofted Shrikes are descending almost vertically on the target. They wouldn't be able to see the radar unless they are able to lock on the sidelobe. Not sure how sensitive the seeker is and if it should be able to lock on the sidelobe, because they seems to be way above the main lobe of the radar making them unable to see the main lobe. Direct attack Shrikes seems to have much higher chances of staying inside main lobe.
With the right seeker head. I have had good success in Direct mode. Just did a quick video myself showing it (not a tutorial though). I use low level ingress and then pop up to line up the SAM. Have to be careful and quick, but it has worked well for me.
THANK YOU! I thought I was going nuts trying to get the Loft seekers working after that same reddit post you saw that also criticized my kneeboard. Going to leave the kneeboard as is until we get definitive usage parameters for both seeker types.
@@TheGate1310 man I am too. But to be honest to the other gentleman I think there is something wrong in DCS OH and z heatblur just updated the manual with the new values for your knee board!
@ oh I’m not criticizing any research that anyone has done on shrikes, it’s not our fault that the implementation is so inconsistent. That’s super exciting! Gonna go look over the manual now.
you are shooting at a tracking radar, the loft shrikes could not see the radar because the loft missiles were not in the radar cone(But that should not be the case, this is more of a DCS thing, the fault here is not the shrikes but the fact that the radar has no sidelobes and so on) , test the same again with a search radar and the loft shrike would have hit here. so when i attack a Search radar i prefer to take the loft shrike, and your video shows very well why, the missile comes from above with significantly more energy every time, you can see here how some direct shrikes fly into the ground. So it always depends, for tracking radar it is better to use direct, because DCS does not simulate sidelobes for search radars always loft mode Edit: and if a tracking radar doesn't see a target it goes off and then there is nothing to aim at and every Sead missile goes blind, so I ALWAYS shoot at the search radar of Sam positions.
that makes so much sense. Do you have some deep intel on how DCS SAMs behave when they don't have a search radar? I just tried in Shadow Reapers 70s, got the flat face but then 2 mirages shoed me off
@@alpenfoxvideo7255 If you destroy the search radar of a Sam position, the Sam position is blind and the tracking radar can no longer find you if it loses you in the meantime I have posted an example video in your report :)
@@alpenfoxvideo7255 ua-cam.com/video/9lXIu9Aj1Q0/v-deo.html btw this is also the reason why the Loft Shrike loses the track in the middle of the flight, You flanking the SA3, the tracking radar follows you and swings the cone away, the AGM45 loses the track just before the SA3.
exactly what I was thinking too! The lofting Shrikes were diving in such a steep angle, they might be out of the cone of the SA3 tracking radar (hence didn't pick it up). I just learned from this comment that DCS does not simulate side lobes for SAMs (I think it does for the F-4E radar?). Your method of using direct for TR and loft for SR makes sense. Thank you!
Your tutorial was the first saw that confirms something I felt early on. When I first tried the AGM45, I was having more success with direct mode without relying on pull-up lights. Then every tutorial, "specialist," the manual, etc., said to load missiles with loft mode and follow lights. As I don't have time to do tests, I follow those guides, which just frustrates me... Thx for showing your technique. If it's a bug or bad implementation of the real system, I don't, but my results are better YOUR way.
After latest update Shrikes in LOFT mode not working properly (or working properly), before update i got many hits sometimes from 23 nm, after update this is not possible anymore.
Interesting... But to me it looks like the target was always out of gimbal limit to the seeker... Could you do one more test, please try to shoot folting missiles without lofting the plane if it make sense... just fly strait and shoot, let see how the missiles with the lofting seeker would react... thank you
@@mastergshotgun yes it is intended. naturally the shrike is front heavy and will pitch down. That’s why the WRCS is employed In order to have a true direct attack you would be diving on the target with the plane and all, and launch straight at it We got word from a developer that the math is pretty skewed towards direct mode shrikes below A20, and vice versa
from JNelson, a Heatblur Developer:
I feel like I can perhaps clear some of this up since I wrote the WRCS (among other stuff) for the F-4E in DCS.
While launching from high altitude with a loft is designed for the lofted shrikes. Below about 20,000ft (from memory sorry) the calculation changes which can make it better for direct attack. The WRCS has a range and altitude bias - this is a point through which the WRCS tries guide the shrike at above 20,000ft the point is 20,000ft infront of the target and 18,000ft in the air, as you decrease in altitude this point is scaled along the this angle proportional to your altitude to a minimum at 5,000ft where the point it is guiding to is the target.
There is also an angle bias too to the calculation which means if you do not loft it will account for the decreased range which could get you a trajectory similar to what a direct attack shrike might fly.
man ur going crazy with the shrike videos lol
@@agidotexe7167 somebody has to! it’s i just that only the F-16 get all the fun
Im mad that GS abandoned the phantom without even learning how to sparrow
12:10 Those lofted Shrikes are descending almost vertically on the target. They wouldn't be able to see the radar unless they are able to lock on the sidelobe. Not sure how sensitive the seeker is and if it should be able to lock on the sidelobe, because they seems to be way above the main lobe of the radar making them unable to see the main lobe. Direct attack Shrikes seems to have much higher chances of staying inside main lobe.
With the right seeker head. I have had good success in Direct mode. Just did a quick video myself showing it (not a tutorial though). I use low level ingress and then pop up to line up the SAM. Have to be careful and quick, but it has worked well for me.
I'm like this. This is the way it's coded. If it works, go with it.
THANK YOU! I thought I was going nuts trying to get the Loft seekers working after that same reddit post you saw that also criticized my kneeboard. Going to leave the kneeboard as is until we get definitive usage parameters for both seeker types.
@@TheGate1310 man I am too. But to be honest to the other gentleman I think there is something wrong in DCS
OH and z heatblur just updated the manual with the new values for your knee board!
@ oh I’m not criticizing any research that anyone has done on shrikes, it’s not our fault that the implementation is so inconsistent. That’s super exciting! Gonna go look over the manual now.
@@TheGate1310 may I then include your kneeboarding in my upcoming update F-4 Training and Proficiency mission pack?
@@alpenfoxvideo7255 You're welcome to use it however you like! Open book, may be showing its age now though.
I feel your confusion, I spent hours testing shrikes just like this.
you are shooting at a tracking radar, the loft shrikes could not see the radar because the loft missiles were not in the radar cone(But that should not be the case, this is more of a DCS thing, the fault here is not the shrikes but the fact that the radar has no sidelobes and so on) , test the same again with a search radar and the loft shrike would have hit here.
so when i attack a Search radar i prefer to take the loft shrike, and your video shows very well why, the missile comes from above with significantly more energy every time, you can see here how some direct shrikes fly into the ground.
So it always depends, for tracking radar it is better to use direct, because DCS does not simulate sidelobes for search radars always loft mode
Edit:
and if a tracking radar doesn't see a target it goes off and then there is nothing to aim at and every Sead missile goes blind, so I ALWAYS shoot at the search radar of Sam positions.
that makes so much sense.
Do you have some deep intel on how DCS SAMs behave when they don't have a search radar?
I just tried in Shadow Reapers 70s, got the flat face but then 2 mirages shoed me off
@@alpenfoxvideo7255 If you destroy the search radar of a Sam position, the Sam position is blind and the tracking radar can no longer find you if it loses you in the meantime
I have posted an example video in your report :)
@@alpenfoxvideo7255 ua-cam.com/video/9lXIu9Aj1Q0/v-deo.html
btw this is also the reason why the Loft Shrike loses the track in the middle of the flight, You flanking the SA3, the tracking radar follows you and swings the cone away, the AGM45 loses the track just before the SA3.
exactly what I was thinking too! The lofting Shrikes were diving in such a steep angle, they might be out of the cone of the SA3 tracking radar (hence didn't pick it up). I just learned from this comment that DCS does not simulate side lobes for SAMs (I think it does for the F-4E radar?). Your method of using direct for TR and loft for SR makes sense. Thank you!
LMAO "Am I... unreasonable?"
@@AnthonyAdrianAcker felt like “Camera conspiracies” for a minute there
Your tutorial was the first saw that confirms something I felt early on. When I first tried the AGM45, I was having more success with direct mode without relying on pull-up lights. Then every tutorial, "specialist," the manual, etc., said to load missiles with loft mode and follow lights. As I don't have time to do tests, I follow those guides, which just frustrates me... Thx for showing your technique. If it's a bug or bad implementation of the real system, I don't, but my results are better YOUR way.
thanks good info, let’s hope for some updates in future patches.
@@shadowdog2017 and an official manual entry for them! I feel like most of the players abandoned the F-4 :(
You are doing good. Keep up the great videos!
what is your pc specs? im thinking about getting the quest 3 for VR DCS
After latest update Shrikes in LOFT mode not working properly (or working properly), before update i got many hits sometimes from 23 nm, after update this is not possible anymore.
Interesting... But to me it looks like the target was always out of gimbal limit to the seeker... Could you do one more test, please try to shoot folting missiles without lofting the plane if it make sense... just fly strait and shoot, let see how the missiles with the lofting seeker would react... thank you
@@mastergshotgun yes it is intended.
naturally the shrike is front heavy and will pitch down. That’s why the WRCS is employed
In order to have a true direct attack you would be diving on the target with the plane and all, and launch straight at it
We got word from a developer that the math is pretty skewed towards direct mode shrikes below A20, and vice versa