Hey, thanks for doing a review! Interesting take on the number row keys. Most users do something similar and put macros and superkeys on the top row instead of the numbers. The low-profile of the Glove 80 does complement its keywell perfectly. A low-profile body for our next keyboards is definitely on our radar. And just to answer your doubt, yes there is a sound-dampening foam in the keyboard :)
Do yall plan on releasing a version with the f-row of keys too? I'd like to give your board a shot for typing and gaming on an ortho-columner style, but those F1-F12 keys are *quite* important to me for gaming. It'd be cool to see you guys come out with an option to put in HE switches and rapid input too. You guys could corner the market for best gaming board at that point
I can confirm that the Defy has sound dampening foam inside. I think they even used two layers to fill every nook and cranny. The wireless Defy has a neuron, but the wired Defy has one too (a different one), as it is the central brain of the whole system. One non-obvious advantage of the wireless Defy is that you can connect it to multiple devices at the same time. You could even make a wired connection to one device and a Bluetooth connection to 4 or 5 other devices at the same time. Not all keys in each thumb cluster are equally accessible, and this was never Dygma’s intention. They wanted to design a cluster where everyone could comfortably reach at least 4 keys. For me the bottom row of the thumb cluster is somewhat less accessible. I use those keys for medium frequency functions, like switching between virtual desktops and directly switching to specific programs. For me switching from a regular keyboard to a column staggered keyboard with thumb clusters was difficult in the beginning. I had trouble with the bottom row; getting used to the thumb cluster was the most difficult. However, I was able to switch to full time use within a mere 2 weeks. I’m very happy with my Defy and would never want go back to a regular keyboard. The software and firmware is not perfect, but still very good and getting better every day.
I use the glove80 but I also just ordered the masterforge because I want to see how chording can help me with programming. The reason I stayed away from the defy is because I don't like it's tenting solution and it's lack of a key well. The glove80 and the kinesis both have a key well and that's more ergonomic.
nice! yeah when I use the Defy I definitely miss the keywell on the Glove80, despite liking pretty much everything else about it. Good luck with the MasterForge, I am currently learning CC2 right now and wow it is taking a long time to get past ~22wpm...
Great review. I bought this keyboard a couple of months ago and it’s my daily keyboard now, wouldn’t exchange it for anything else now that I’ve gotten used to it. Many of the things you said really resonate with my experience :Bazecor is really great (there are still some bugs that they are fixing, the support team is really reactive), the sound and feel is great (I have changed the stock switches for even more silent ones), I also don’t use the top row at all, but the thumb cluster really makes up for the lack of lower keys - I have many layouts so my fingers hardly need to leave the 10x3 zone at all - and yes all thumb keys are very easy to reach except the most inner ones that I still use for more occasional stuff. About the angle, you should try the tenting (I personally use the tenting+tilting combo, it’s brilliant), and my wrists are perfectly straight.
You talked about the typing angle not being as good on the Defy, but did you try any of the tenting or reverse tenting options? They make a huge difference on comfort while typing.
I've been using the Kenisis Advantage 360 and I have been loving it. I will get the Dygma Defy for when I have to go to the office. The Kenisis is just too large and not portable enough. But the Kinesis remains my favourite, I do not like the Glove 80's thumb clusters. But I guess everyone has different preferences for what they find comfortable.
yeah everyone has different takes on the subtle differences between these boards. I think the A360 is a great board but the biggest obstacle for me is the top buttons on the thumb clusters. I don't find them ultra usable. Even though the Glove 80 thumb clusters are my favorite so far, I'd still prefer it if they were positioned slightly closer to my palms
Every time I look at my current, non-split keyboard, I can't help but think about the Dygma. It's like looking at a black-and-white TV and knowing color TVs exist. The split design of the Raise isn't just innovative; it's like giving each hand its own personal throne. I bet typing on it feels like conducting an orchestra with just your fingertips. Here's hoping I'll soon upgrade to this symphony of ergonomics! 🎶🎹
If you're going to the Dygma Raise, wait for the Raise 2 to be released. That 'fixes' some of my niggles with the original raise. 1. Built-in tenting reduces the overall stack height of the keyboard. 2. Magnetic palm rests should ensure longer life/"stickiness" of the rests.
Hey mate. Cheers for this video, I like your reviews. Like you, I'm a software developer with an ergo keyboard addiction, err what I like to think of as the search for the holy grail. I've tried many of the same boards you have, and my top 3 consists of the MoErgo Glove80 rev 2, Kinesis Advantage 360 (wired, not Pro) and most recently a BastardKB Charybdis. The latter is really interesting, because not only does it also have key wells, it has a built-in trackball too. I use it with the pretty steep (30 degree I think) tenting kit, with Boba U4 silent tactile switches and MT3 PBT keycaps from Drop, using a Colemak layout. Anyway, it's growing on me quickly, despite having a few less keys than the other two boards (4x6 plus 5 or 3 thumb keys - the trackball side has 2 fewer thumb keys). It can be bought prebuilt, which is great because it requires SMD soldering (I'd be fine soldering regular diodes, but stuff that small I'd rather leave to the pros). Prebuilt price is similar to the fully decked Dygma Defy. Other keyboards I like are the ErgoDox and Moonlander, and original Kinesis Advantage (my very first ErgoDox keyboard, 16 years ago). I don't have a Defy myself (all the others I do or did own), but could try a coworker's. For me it's in the same category as ErgoDox and Moonlander: ticks almost all the boxes, only it's flat rather than with key wells. Voyager is well-made and very mobile, but only 2 keys per thumb are too few for my habits, for mobile use I'd rather go with a Sofle or Lily 58, which have around 3 well-reachable thumb keys (and more not so well reachable ones).
I have the keyboard, I like it. I bought it on kickstarter over a year ago, I knew they made the raise so I went for it. I wanted it for gaming and I thought the extra thumbkeys would be a leg up on the ergodox. I stopped gaming and just like ergo boards now. I got it for like 100/200 off I think at that time and got everything on it. It looks great. It has some problems still, the software isn't all the way there, and I really think 500 is too much. I think half the thumbkeys aren't the most comfortable either. I'll keep it to game on something with enough buttons, but I'm going for a voyager.
@codetothemoon You stated your wrist angle is more natural when typing with the glove80 than the Defy, But is that still the case when you use a tenting angle in the Defy, especially an aggressive one? I asked because I notice you did not use tent your Defy at all in the video, so I wonder if you never tried with the tenting setup and if so why? Was it because the Defy just wasn't comfortable to you while tented or you just never got around trying it like that? I'm trying to decide whether to return my Defy or not and get a Glove80, due to the Defy causing me some pain in my wrist while typing, and I wonder if It'll go away once I start tenting it. The thing that bother me about the Glove80 it the tepid and cheap tenting, it looks pretty useless honestly. Which i why I haven't returned my Defy yet. Because it does like at least a small degree of tenting in my boards. It just feels that much better on my wrist after repeated and prolonged use. Would love your input.
update, tenting the defy t the Max 60% degree made my wrist pain go away. also lower my standing desk as much as I could and raised my chair as much as i could, so now my elbow sits at a 90% angle when typing. on the bad side of things, Bluetooth on the defy is absolutely atrocious and unreliable. and so it the battery life. Ordered a Glove80 to check it out.
I'm selling my Defy, took to long from the Kickstarter. Would you be interested? Is black, dash keycaps, linear switches, and tenting kit. I open the package to see if everything was there, no use.
I have question about the keycap of thumb clusters. I heard from some user on Dygma discord that their keycap of thumb clusters are broke or nearly break when they just type normally. Do you have any issue like that? What are your though on this matter? I wanted to get the defy but worry that if I use it for gaming then I will break...
You are correct about the mass effecting sound. Another factor is that the key switches are exposed on the side, which is nice for RGB but bad for sound. Makes it difficult to tune/dampen. This one looks like it doesn't have that hollow core which other ergos have plus its nice metal construction the others lack and market as a "feature for portability." I like that this one is hotswappable. You should look into other switches to put in it (I suggest Gateron Oil Kings, or Gateron Box Ink V2-L) Lubed switches are such a game changer and those two i mentioned are factory lubed (Takes about 8hr to do yourself)
Kaleidoscope was made originally for the keyboardio keyboards. I feel like the model 100 is a slightly better value than this one (more stuff included at the base $330 price point) That said, if I ever have enough money to upgrade my K8 pro, it'll probably be a moonlander for me.
can't speak for everyone, but I put them on a layer where the h,j,k,l keys are on the base layer. This setup is natural to me because h,j,k,l are the directional keys in vim/neovim/emacs in evil mode. It works out nicely because then I can move the cursor in any application using the same keys that I'd use in emacs, just with the addition of pressing a layer key. hopefully that makes sense 😎
Same here, and also on another layer on SDFE with Home and End on W & R, and Page keys on T&G. I think I'm going to move the page keys down a row. My numpad is on the right, JKL for 456 divide & multiply to the left and add & subtract to the right. 0 & . are on thumb keys. Plenty of room left for calc shortcut, calc history shortcut, and numloc key. Both arrow clusters have word select keys below the L & R arrows.
Had mine for three weeks now. Feels better but still make a lot of typo especially on the thumb cluster, I also totally agree that the top row is hard to reach, I find it very hard to switch fast between layers when typing numbers (say you want to type "23av4;5\6" you need to switch between layers non stop). Would love to see your layer setup.
Personally the Voyager had too few thumb keys for my taste, even though it's well built and with the nice ZSA configurator. Because of the thumb keys, I actually prefer the Moonlander over the Voyager, and the ErgoDox over the Moonlander (I've had maaany years to get used to that thumb key layout on a Kinesis Advantage 1, starting in 2008). However, personally I prefer to go with key wells over a flat board, so MoErgo Glove80, Kinesis Advantage 360 (wired, not Pro), or most recently, BastardKB Charybdis.
Curious how well Defy handles home row mods. It’s pretty common knowledge that ZMK handles it the best out of the box whereas QMK requires more fiddling. So if the Defy handles it well that would be a plus in my book.
It handled them perfectly! I was surprised at this because I had to do quite a bit of trial and error tuning with both QMK and ZMK to get to a place where I wasn't having misfires all the time. But with Bazecor I literally just set up the keys as being tap hold - and I was good to go. I didn't even have to fiddle with a hold interval (I still don't actually know what value it's using, or where you'd configure it if you had to).
Glad to see that you liked it. For me bazecor was a dream breaker between forcing you to a ui, the lack of features and the bugs. But I am probably niche
BTW something that impressed me when trying a coworker's Defy was the instant configuration without flashing, had not seen that before. Later I learned that all QMK boards can do that too when using VIA.
@@NJ-wb1cz Oh, interesting. It's still limited to 4 layers (plenty for me), but supports rotary encoders, advanced features like tap-dance, and is open source.
I'm selling my Dygma Defy, did the Kickstarter, bought the moonlander with tenting kit because it took to long and now don't need it. Is black, dash keycaps, linear switches, and tenting kit. I open the package to see if everything was there, no use.
I don't know if I could get used to the curly braces not being there. I really want to try a split keyboard, but I can't seem to find one that's just a normal keyboard, split in half.
If you're looking for a split board that still has the row stagger of traditional boards, I think there are a few of these on the market. The one that immediately comes to mind is the Dygma Raise
I think generally speaking you can't swap between chocs and mx on a single board. even if you could, so much of the board design revolves around mx style switches, so I'm not sure you would want to even if you could
i don't get how people justify backlight + wireless combo because backlight turns off after inactivity timeout making it impossible to accurately position hands again. Defeats the purpose of backlight
Finally the perfect all aroud bord. This with hall effect switches would be ridiculously good for gaming. I remove my spacebar to use the lower key row for inputs. This keyboard has the perfect amount of thumb keys.
heard some buzz around this hall effect concept, haven't actually grokked what it is yet :) agree that the number of thumb keys on the Defy is fantastic
4:06 'because it does sound so good' ?!!?!??!?! No please god no you cant tell me you mistakenly think this thing sounds good can you? My first impression watching the video, the second i heard the split keyboard typing.... i thought it sounded like one of the worst mech keyboards ive heard. You even have switches i very much love the sound of. I designed my own split keyboard and i found it easy to massively improve the sound over this dygma/videos sound. I went with an extreme budget setup build utilizing my own selection of frankenswitches, hardware, case parts cut by hand etc. I was able to make it all sound very marbley/very very nice, even though this is my first mechanical keyboard anything ive worked on myself and its a split keyboard thats multiple gens old already(Iris rev 6.1 from keebio) You need just a baby step up from those cheapish yellows even though i do love those switches. Then you need maybe PE foam instead of whatever is or isnt inside that thing. It also needs just some general like foundational level stuff done like lubing & maybe filming switches. Adding more foam and or mass in general especially if you opt against the typical tape mod approach.
Seems kind of weird that you can get US and dash keycaps for free but if you want other languages you need to buy US and then your extra language on top. The amount isn't huge compared to the price of the board but it just feels like nickel and diming Looks like there's free worldwide shipping and minimal import fees though, which would make it much cheaper than competitors (which usually double in price outside the US), but i haven't tried actually buying so not sure. You never really know until you get a surprise bill from customs.
kind of a tangent but I've always wondered why folks prefer legends on their keycaps. They *might* make sense when you're learning to type (but even then, they don't seem strictly necessary) but after that they seem kind of useless. Would love to hear other perspectives on this 😎
@@codetothemoon Legends don't really bother me, so I find them nice to have when I quickly need to reach for a shortcut after not touching the keyboard.
Depends. On key cap types where each row has a different profile, such as MT3, Cherry, DCS, SA etc., legends are a nuisance when using a non-standard layout such as Colemak, because then you have to buy the base key caps plus the Colemak conversion kit (if there's even an option for that). And when you can touch type properly all you get are nice looks when not using the thing. On Choc switches or DSA where every key is the same (except maybe the two home keys) this is not an issue, and there I like having legends, if only for the looks. On most other boards I use blank key caps instead.
For me, I have a Kenesis Advantage 360 Pro, and there's some keys I rarely use at all, such as the windows key by my thumb, and so I need to look down to make sure I'm pressing the right thing
@@tqwewe I understand. Having started with a Kinesis Advantage 1 in 2008, I can report that before long looking at anything on the keyboard became unnecessary - I maybe even forced myself not to look, to hasten this process. That board had very high DCS R5 keys for the topmost 2 thumb keys, which made them more distinct from the other thumb keys. The 2 long thumb keys still have distinct shapes to this day, so you can feel where you are, and the others I reach blindly relative to those.
My whole reason for wanting a board like Defy is split an tenting paired with those thumbkeys because my gosh gaming for last few years has be shit when I have spells,skills an weapons to swap between while moving like how does one play Titan-fall 2 on standard boards
There is no justification for such price on this keyboards. Materials and technologies are well known for decades. They can't cost so much. Even batch sizes can not justify price
Please stop creating unnecessary and uninformative names like "next-gen board", it's a split ergo keyboard, they've been around since the 90s if not before that. It doesn't add any value to create this name. Other than that it was a great review.
If you Google next Gen keyboard you will not really find the community and info you are looking for. And even if this guy likes split ergo boards, "next Gen" is meant to describe rounds of flagship products in an industry, which isn't really representative of the place this occupies in the market. he is just saying a made up term that will confuse new keeb enthusiasts.
I literally gave up using the Defy wireless because of connection issues. That would be bad enough, but even wired it has lots of problems (sometimes I have to disconnect and reconnect the RHS 20 times before it gets recognised). Dreadful. Such a shame because it is otherwise a great keyboard. When it eventually breaks, I will not be buying another Dygma product. Wasted so many hours on trying to fix this product which is supposed to be a premium offering.
The switch from a regular QWERTY Ducky keyboard to the Defy was not hard, the Defy has better tenting options then most out there. Most people that have a tenting Defy do use it if, its over 80% usage. If you can’t handle the Defy at the moment, get a Raise then learn the Defy later
Nothing beats 4 bolts tenting in infinite adjustability and stability, and that is available on every basic acrylic or metal case or plate for every pcb out there, and only needs 4 holes and a bunch of bolts from a hardware store Where did you get the detailed statistics on Defy users?
@@NJ-wb1cz some Glove80 users have stated the bolts are not stable and shake a lot, it also seems like it would be a pain to adjust if you have a standing desk and need different angles for standing and sitting.
360 is a good price, its fucking funny when youtubers say this shit, getting endorced by products and then trying to soft land the fact that these ergo(or next gen keyboard like you say) are stupidly priced. You can get a cheap laptop for that price, and guess what it comes with a keyboard. I am keyboard enthusiast myself, I can buy a 600$ keyboard but that doesn't mean the product is rightly prices
I guess its kinda pricey for some people but i know a lot of programmers who are willing to pay 500+ for the right keyboard. Plus this is not a gaming keyboard obviously.
These aren’t for gaming. These are for programmers who often have to type for hours on end and need the high end ergonomics. Also, this keyboard is only 500+ with the wireless configuration (which I don’t personally care for anyways).
329$ for a keyboard. "Is actually a pretty good value". What a laugh!!! When people earn too much more than they deserve (since we are nothing without others) they completley lost track of reality.
I do temporarily go back to a traditional board on occasion, and it is almost never enjoyable, at least from a comfort / productivity standpoint. Some of them do sound and feel really nice though! (Keychron Q60 is my current fav)
Yeah, that's another one with a built-in trackball that looks interesting. There's also a 44 and 61 key version. As far as flat ergonomic keebs with built-in pointing devices go, the BastardKB Dilemma or Dilemma Max have a built-in trackpad, which could be nice for mobile use. Choice of Choc or MX switches, and optional 1-2 rotary encoders (or regular thumb key instead of each rotary). For stationary use, key wells are my preference, currently getting used to a BastardKB Charybdis.
Hey, thanks for doing a review! Interesting take on the number row keys. Most users do something similar and put macros and superkeys on the top row instead of the numbers. The low-profile of the Glove 80 does complement its keywell perfectly. A low-profile body for our next keyboards is definitely on our radar. And just to answer your doubt, yes there is a sound-dampening foam in the keyboard :)
Any idea regarding when the low profile would be done? That's definitely when i would get onboard :)
Do yall plan on releasing a version with the f-row of keys too? I'd like to give your board a shot for typing and gaming on an ortho-columner style, but those F1-F12 keys are *quite* important to me for gaming. It'd be cool to see you guys come out with an option to put in HE switches and rapid input too. You guys could corner the market for best gaming board at that point
dygma balls
nice
🤣🤣🤣
I can confirm that the Defy has sound dampening foam inside. I think they even used two layers to fill every nook and cranny. The wireless Defy has a neuron, but the wired Defy has one too (a different one), as it is the central brain of the whole system.
One non-obvious advantage of the wireless Defy is that you can connect it to multiple devices at the same time. You could even make a wired connection to one device and a Bluetooth connection to 4 or 5 other devices at the same time.
Not all keys in each thumb cluster are equally accessible, and this was never Dygma’s intention. They wanted to design a cluster where everyone could comfortably reach at least 4 keys. For me the bottom row of the thumb cluster is somewhat less accessible. I use those keys for medium frequency functions, like switching between virtual desktops and directly switching to specific programs.
For me switching from a regular keyboard to a column staggered keyboard with thumb clusters was difficult in the beginning. I had trouble with the bottom row; getting used to the thumb cluster was the most difficult. However, I was able to switch to full time use within a mere 2 weeks. I’m very happy with my Defy and would never want go back to a regular keyboard. The software and firmware is not perfect, but still very good and getting better every day.
I use the glove80 but I also just ordered the masterforge because I want to see how chording can help me with programming. The reason I stayed away from the defy is because I don't like it's tenting solution and it's lack of a key well. The glove80 and the kinesis both have a key well and that's more ergonomic.
nice! yeah when I use the Defy I definitely miss the keywell on the Glove80, despite liking pretty much everything else about it. Good luck with the MasterForge, I am currently learning CC2 right now and wow it is taking a long time to get past ~22wpm...
Great review. I bought this keyboard a couple of months ago and it’s my daily keyboard now, wouldn’t exchange it for anything else now that I’ve gotten used to it. Many of the things you said really resonate with my experience :Bazecor is really great (there are still some bugs that they are fixing, the support team is really reactive), the sound and feel is great (I have changed the stock switches for even more silent ones), I also don’t use the top row at all, but the thumb cluster really makes up for the lack of lower keys - I have many layouts so my fingers hardly need to leave the 10x3 zone at all - and yes all thumb keys are very easy to reach except the most inner ones that I still use for more occasional stuff.
About the angle, you should try the tenting (I personally use the tenting+tilting combo, it’s brilliant), and my wrists are perfectly straight.
You talked about the typing angle not being as good on the Defy, but did you try any of the tenting or reverse tenting options? They make a huge difference on comfort while typing.
I've been using the Kenisis Advantage 360 and I have been loving it. I will get the Dygma Defy for when I have to go to the office. The Kenisis is just too large and not portable enough. But the Kinesis remains my favourite, I do not like the Glove 80's thumb clusters. But I guess everyone has different preferences for what they find comfortable.
yeah everyone has different takes on the subtle differences between these boards. I think the A360 is a great board but the biggest obstacle for me is the top buttons on the thumb clusters. I don't find them ultra usable. Even though the Glove 80 thumb clusters are my favorite so far, I'd still prefer it if they were positioned slightly closer to my palms
Every time I look at my current, non-split keyboard, I can't help but think about the Dygma. It's like looking at a black-and-white TV and knowing color TVs exist. The split design of the Raise isn't just innovative; it's like giving each hand its own personal throne. I bet typing on it feels like conducting an orchestra with just your fingertips. Here's hoping I'll soon upgrade to this symphony of ergonomics! 🎶🎹
If you're going to the Dygma Raise, wait for the Raise 2 to be released. That 'fixes' some of my niggles with the original raise.
1. Built-in tenting reduces the overall stack height of the keyboard.
2. Magnetic palm rests should ensure longer life/"stickiness" of the rests.
Hey mate. Cheers for this video, I like your reviews.
Like you, I'm a software developer with an ergo keyboard addiction, err what I like to think of as the search for the holy grail. I've tried many of the same boards you have, and my top 3 consists of the MoErgo Glove80 rev 2, Kinesis Advantage 360 (wired, not Pro) and most recently a BastardKB Charybdis. The latter is really interesting, because not only does it also have key wells, it has a built-in trackball too. I use it with the pretty steep (30 degree I think) tenting kit, with Boba U4 silent tactile switches and MT3 PBT keycaps from Drop, using a Colemak layout. Anyway, it's growing on me quickly, despite having a few less keys than the other two boards (4x6 plus 5 or 3 thumb keys - the trackball side has 2 fewer thumb keys). It can be bought prebuilt, which is great because it requires SMD soldering (I'd be fine soldering regular diodes, but stuff that small I'd rather leave to the pros). Prebuilt price is similar to the fully decked Dygma Defy.
Other keyboards I like are the ErgoDox and Moonlander, and original Kinesis Advantage (my very first ErgoDox keyboard, 16 years ago). I don't have a Defy myself (all the others I do or did own), but could try a coworker's. For me it's in the same category as ErgoDox and Moonlander: ticks almost all the boxes, only it's flat rather than with key wells. Voyager is well-made and very mobile, but only 2 keys per thumb are too few for my habits, for mobile use I'd rather go with a Sofle or Lily 58, which have around 3 well-reachable thumb keys (and more not so well reachable ones).
Why didn't you use the tenting? It looked like you had the kb flat. How long did you use the defy vs the other kb?
I have the keyboard, I like it.
I bought it on kickstarter over a year ago, I knew they made the raise so I went for it. I wanted it for gaming and I thought the extra thumbkeys would be a leg up on the ergodox. I stopped gaming and just like ergo boards now.
I got it for like 100/200 off I think at that time and got everything on it. It looks great.
It has some problems still, the software isn't all the way there, and I really think 500 is too much. I think half the thumbkeys aren't the most comfortable either.
I'll keep it to game on something with enough buttons, but I'm going for a voyager.
@codetothemoon
You stated your wrist angle is more natural when typing with the glove80 than the Defy,
But is that still the case when you use a tenting angle in the Defy, especially an aggressive one?
I asked because I notice you did not use tent your Defy at all in the video, so I wonder if you never tried with the tenting setup and if so why? Was it because the Defy just wasn't comfortable to you while tented or you just never got around trying it like that?
I'm trying to decide whether to return my Defy or not and get a Glove80, due to the Defy causing me some pain in my wrist while typing, and I wonder if It'll go away once I start tenting it.
The thing that bother me about the Glove80 it the tepid and cheap tenting, it looks pretty useless honestly.
Which i why I haven't returned my Defy yet. Because it does like at least a small degree of tenting in my boards.
It just feels that much better on my wrist after repeated and prolonged use.
Would love your input.
update, tenting the defy t the Max 60% degree made my wrist pain go away. also lower my standing desk as much as I could and raised my chair as much as i could, so now my elbow sits at a 90% angle when typing.
on the bad side of things, Bluetooth on the defy is absolutely atrocious and unreliable. and so it the battery life.
Ordered a Glove80 to check it out.
@@callaxwithac1320 any updates?
I was looking to replace my moonlander.
This looks good.
I’m not ready to get one with the curve.
Thanks for the super review 🎉
I'm selling my Defy, took to long from the Kickstarter. Would you be interested? Is black, dash keycaps, linear switches, and tenting kit. I open the package to see if everything was there, no use.
@@routchenko ah sigh, what did you took instead?
Are the switches hot swappable?
If yes we can speak ;)
@@Maartz yes, they are hot swappable.
@@routchenko why don't you send it back? They seem pretty cool with that. That's what I did
I have question about the keycap of thumb clusters. I heard from some user on Dygma discord that their keycap of thumb clusters are broke or nearly break when they just type normally. Do you have any issue like that? What are your though on this matter? I wanted to get the defy but worry that if I use it for gaming then I will break...
You are correct about the mass effecting sound. Another factor is that the key switches are exposed on the side, which is nice for RGB but bad for sound. Makes it difficult to tune/dampen. This one looks like it doesn't have that hollow core which other ergos have plus its nice metal construction the others lack and market as a "feature for portability."
I like that this one is hotswappable. You should look into other switches to put in it (I suggest Gateron Oil Kings, or Gateron Box Ink V2-L)
Lubed switches are such a game changer and those two i mentioned are factory lubed (Takes about 8hr to do yourself)
Kaleidoscope was made originally for the keyboardio keyboards. I feel like the model 100 is a slightly better value than this one (more stuff included at the base $330 price point)
That said, if I ever have enough money to upgrade my K8 pro, it'll probably be a moonlander for me.
this looks sick. i'll be sticking to my corne
can't go wrong with the Corne! amazing board
Not a programmer, just curious: what do you guys do for arrow/cursor keys on this kinda keyboard?
can't speak for everyone, but I put them on a layer where the h,j,k,l keys are on the base layer.
This setup is natural to me because h,j,k,l are the directional keys in vim/neovim/emacs in evil mode.
It works out nicely because then I can move the cursor in any application using the same keys that I'd use in emacs, just with the addition of pressing a layer key.
hopefully that makes sense 😎
Same here, and also on another layer on SDFE with Home and End on W & R, and Page keys on T&G. I think I'm going to move the page keys down a row. My numpad is on the right, JKL for 456 divide & multiply to the left and add & subtract to the right. 0 & . are on thumb keys. Plenty of room left for calc shortcut, calc history shortcut, and numloc key. Both arrow clusters have word select keys below the L & R arrows.
A sound section without an actual sound test
Thanks for the feedback! What would be the minimum criteria for it to be actual?
Had mine for three weeks now. Feels better but still make a lot of typo especially on the thumb cluster, I also totally agree that the top row is hard to reach, I find it very hard to switch fast between layers when typing numbers (say you want to type "23av4;5\6" you need to switch between layers non stop).
Would love to see your layer setup.
Now do the Moonlander
I may if I can get my hands on one.
Or zsa Voyager because it stands out better against the Glove80
@@GreatWalker I haven't seen this one yet, it looks sweet
Personally the Voyager had too few thumb keys for my taste, even though it's well built and with the nice ZSA configurator. Because of the thumb keys, I actually prefer the Moonlander over the Voyager, and the ErgoDox over the Moonlander (I've had maaany years to get used to that thumb key layout on a Kinesis Advantage 1, starting in 2008).
However, personally I prefer to go with key wells over a flat board, so MoErgo Glove80, Kinesis Advantage 360 (wired, not Pro), or most recently, BastardKB Charybdis.
I have the Voyager since a few days and it's been amazing.
Can you share you glove80 layout please
Curious how well Defy handles home row mods. It’s pretty common knowledge that ZMK handles it the best out of the box whereas QMK requires more fiddling. So if the Defy handles it well that would be a plus in my book.
It handled them perfectly! I was surprised at this because I had to do quite a bit of trial and error tuning with both QMK and ZMK to get to a place where I wasn't having misfires all the time. But with Bazecor I literally just set up the keys as being tap hold - and I was good to go. I didn't even have to fiddle with a hold interval (I still don't actually know what value it's using, or where you'd configure it if you had to).
Glad to see that you liked it. For me bazecor was a dream breaker between forcing you to a ui, the lack of features and the bugs. But I am probably niche
Not sure about Defy specifically, but generally you can configure Kaleidoscope kbds directly via C API: IME it’s on par in features with QMK.
BTW something that impressed me when trying a coworker's Defy was the instant configuration without flashing, had not seen that before. Later I learned that all QMK boards can do that too when using VIA.
And VIAL, which has more functionality
@@NJ-wb1cz Oh, interesting. It's still limited to 4 layers (plenty for me), but supports rotary encoders, advanced features like tap-dance, and is open source.
@@shrugalic I'm pretty sure vial isn't limited to 4 layers, but I guess it depends on the amount of memory you have
@@NJ-wb1cz That's what it said in a comparison I looked up, but maybe that's outdated.
@@shrugalic that's typically a via limitation, but even via can have more layers on some keyboards
I would love to try the glove80, but I can’t get past the size, the max amount of keys I need is 60, prefer 40. Maybe they will release a glove60?
Do you have an extra of your 'daily driver' keyboard on your shelf? Or do you not really daily drive it and can leave it on a shelf?
My daily driver is one with linear 50g reds. The one on the shelf has tactile switches and serves as my backup
I'm selling my Dygma Defy, did the Kickstarter, bought the moonlander with tenting kit because it took to long and now don't need it.
Is black, dash keycaps, linear switches, and tenting kit. I open the package to see if everything was there, no use.
I don't know if I could get used to the curly braces not being there. I really want to try a split keyboard, but I can't seem to find one that's just a normal keyboard, split in half.
If you're looking for a split board that still has the row stagger of traditional boards, I think there are a few of these on the market. The one that immediately comes to mind is the Dygma Raise
Ultimate hacking keyboard is a normal one split in half.
the dygma raise 2 coming soon
Keychron also has one
clicked a link for Glove 80, and lo and behold...
Price issues thats what i hate in these kybrds
it's less than ideal for sure. personally I'd happily forego the latest GPU or processor for the ability to have a great keyboard, but that's just me.
Get a Corne. Much cheaper and just a perfect layout.
Can you share the link to the video about the home row you mentioned?
Anyone know if it's possible to change the switches from mx to low profile chalk switches?
I think generally speaking you can't swap between chocs and mx on a single board. even if you could, so much of the board design revolves around mx style switches, so I'm not sure you would want to even if you could
I wonder if you have an opinion on ZSA Voyager
Havnt tried one yet, would love to give it a go if I can get ahold of one. But I strongly suspect I might want more thumb keys
Would love to see your review. Your keyboard videos are amazing !
is there any wireless split membrane keyboard that's more portable?
I keep going back to the Corne and have the Glove in the drawer. I feel like it has the perfect amount of keys and chocs just don't cut it for me.
What is this switches ? 3:50
Need a more portable next gen keyboard, this one looks really impressive. My advantage 360 is a the opposite of easily portable.
i don't get how people justify backlight + wireless combo because backlight turns off after inactivity timeout making it impossible to accurately position hands again. Defeats the purpose of backlight
Finally the perfect all aroud bord.
This with hall effect switches would be ridiculously good for gaming.
I remove my spacebar to use the lower key row for inputs.
This keyboard has the perfect amount of thumb keys.
heard some buzz around this hall effect concept, haven't actually grokked what it is yet :) agree that the number of thumb keys on the Defy is fantastic
Massive missed opportunity here to have branded it LYGMA
How fast do you type?
Ma! I pimped my coder with a new keyboard! Now he is ten times as fast as before. ;-)
4:06 'because it does sound so good' ?!!?!??!?! No please god no you cant tell me you mistakenly think this thing sounds good can you?
My first impression watching the video, the second i heard the split keyboard typing.... i thought it sounded like one of the worst mech keyboards ive heard. You even have switches i very much love the sound of.
I designed my own split keyboard and i found it easy to massively improve the sound over this dygma/videos sound. I went with an extreme budget setup build utilizing my own selection of frankenswitches, hardware, case parts cut by hand etc. I was able to make it all sound very marbley/very very nice, even though this is my first mechanical keyboard anything ive worked on myself and its a split keyboard thats multiple gens old already(Iris rev 6.1 from keebio)
You need just a baby step up from those cheapish yellows even though i do love those switches. Then you need maybe PE foam instead of whatever is or isnt inside that thing. It also needs just some general like foundational level stuff done like lubing & maybe filming switches. Adding more foam and or mass in general especially if you opt against the typical tape mod approach.
Dang it I JUST switched to a glove 80…
Watch until the end 😎
@@codetothemoonhaha I saw but still the curiosity! I got the glove 80 (coming from kenesis 360) because of your videos
only thing that negates me is the price
understandable - it can feel odd to spend this much money on a keyboard when you're used to them being $30
Seems kind of weird that you can get US and dash keycaps for free but if you want other languages you need to buy US and then your extra language on top. The amount isn't huge compared to the price of the board but it just feels like nickel and diming
Looks like there's free worldwide shipping and minimal import fees though, which would make it much cheaper than competitors (which usually double in price outside the US), but i haven't tried actually buying so not sure. You never really know until you get a surprise bill from customs.
kind of a tangent but I've always wondered why folks prefer legends on their keycaps. They *might* make sense when you're learning to type (but even then, they don't seem strictly necessary) but after that they seem kind of useless. Would love to hear other perspectives on this 😎
@@codetothemoon Legends don't really bother me, so I find them nice to have when I quickly need to reach for a shortcut after not touching the keyboard.
Depends. On key cap types where each row has a different profile, such as MT3, Cherry, DCS, SA etc., legends are a nuisance when using a non-standard layout such as Colemak, because then you have to buy the base key caps plus the Colemak conversion kit (if there's even an option for that). And when you can touch type properly all you get are nice looks when not using the thing.
On Choc switches or DSA where every key is the same (except maybe the two home keys) this is not an issue, and there I like having legends, if only for the looks. On most other boards I use blank key caps instead.
For me, I have a Kenesis Advantage 360 Pro, and there's some keys I rarely use at all, such as the windows key by my thumb, and so I need to look down to make sure I'm pressing the right thing
@@tqwewe I understand. Having started with a Kinesis Advantage 1 in 2008, I can report that before long looking at anything on the keyboard became unnecessary - I maybe even forced myself not to look, to hasten this process. That board had very high DCS R5 keys for the topmost 2 thumb keys, which made them more distinct from the other thumb keys. The 2 long thumb keys still have distinct shapes to this day, so you can feel where you are, and the others I reach blindly relative to those.
My whole reason for wanting a board like Defy is split an tenting paired with those thumbkeys because my gosh gaming for last few years has be shit when I have spells,skills an weapons to swap between while moving like how does one play Titan-fall 2 on standard boards
Bobbie Springs
🙃
There is no justification for such price on this keyboards. Materials and technologies are well known for decades. They can't cost so much. Even batch sizes can not justify price
Ok go make one with the same specs and tell us.
Thanks for confirming my suspicious
Please stop creating unnecessary and uninformative names like "next-gen board", it's a split ergo keyboard, they've been around since the 90s if not before that. It doesn't add any value to create this name. Other than that it was a great review.
Thanks for the feedback!
He defines the term before using it and it makes perfect sense to use it here; what a bizarre comment.
@@MrKevinorzmy thoughts exactly, what type of egomaniac feels the need to tell someone else what to call a keyboard?
If you Google next Gen keyboard you will not really find the community and info you are looking for. And even if this guy likes split ergo boards, "next Gen" is meant to describe rounds of flagship products in an industry, which isn't really representative of the place this occupies in the market. he is just saying a made up term that will confuse new keeb enthusiasts.
I dunno, "next gen" rolls off the tongue a little easier than "split ergonomic fully programmable mechanical keyboard".
Man I wish it had QMK support :(
DYGMA BALLS HUEHUEHUE
nice 🙃
I literally gave up using the Defy wireless because of connection issues. That would be bad enough, but even wired it has lots of problems (sometimes I have to disconnect and reconnect the RHS 20 times before it gets recognised). Dreadful. Such a shame because it is otherwise a great keyboard. When it eventually breaks, I will not be buying another Dygma product. Wasted so many hours on trying to fix this product which is supposed to be a premium offering.
Wow sorry to hear about this, I haven't had a single connectivity issue with mine. Have you reached out to Dygma support?
Dygma Balls!
Have you tried the advantage 360?
Yes, I have one. Great board overall. But to me the thumb cluster layout is suboptimal, and I think both the Glove80 and Defy have better ones
@@codetothemoon thanks !
Skyla Track
😎
Armand Squares
😎
For that price you can get a custom 3D printed keyboard from cyboard tailor made to your hand size
I feel like the dygma is a next gen gaming keyboard more than a next gen ERGO keyboard.
A lot of the thumb keys aren't comfortable.
The switch from a regular QWERTY Ducky keyboard to the Defy was not hard, the Defy has better tenting options then most out there. Most people that have a tenting Defy do use it if, its over 80% usage. If you can’t handle the Defy at the moment, get a Raise then learn the Defy later
Nothing beats 4 bolts tenting in infinite adjustability and stability, and that is available on every basic acrylic or metal case or plate for every pcb out there, and only needs 4 holes and a bunch of bolts from a hardware store
Where did you get the detailed statistics on Defy users?
@@NJ-wb1cz some Glove80 users have stated the bolts are not stable and shake a lot, it also seems like it would be a pain to adjust if you have a standing desk and need different angles for standing and sitting.
@@callaxwithac1320 they have shitty bolts then. About standing sitting - true, but I wouldn't want to adjust any tenting each time I want to stand up
I am already team Moonlander, sorry 🤗
Dygma balls lmao
nice
Dygma balls
360 is a good price, its fucking funny when youtubers say this shit, getting endorced by products and then trying to soft land the fact that these ergo(or next gen keyboard like you say) are stupidly priced. You can get a cheap laptop for that price, and guess what it comes with a keyboard. I am keyboard enthusiast myself, I can buy a 600$ keyboard but that doesn't mean the product is rightly prices
Thanks for the feedback! I am not endorsed by Dygma. I think the Defy is a great value for those who are looking for the things it does well.
Dygma bum bum
Now thats a keyboard, mate. Sorry for being too rude in your previous keyboard review. Until "Naya Create" arrives this keyboard will do.
Idk. No keyboard is worth $500+. I can probably beat you in a game with a $10 keyboard.
I guess its kinda pricey for some people but i know a lot of programmers who are willing to pay 500+ for the right keyboard. Plus this is not a gaming keyboard obviously.
It's not for gaming.
These aren’t for gaming. These are for programmers who often have to type for hours on end and need the high end ergonomics. Also, this keyboard is only 500+ with the wireless configuration (which I don’t personally care for anyways).
gj kiddo
_Hides my 900 USD Hyper 7 R4 invoice behind my back whistling innocently_
I get you gotta pay bills but I don’t think you know your viewers since you’re advertising a $500+ keyboard. 😂
Man have two. For home and office.
329$ for a keyboard. "Is actually a pretty good value". What a laugh!!! When people earn too much more than they deserve (since we are nothing without others) they completley lost track of reality.
1:11 "I don't plan to ever go back to a traditionnal board...". Well, you should give it a try the other way around, you might like it :)
I do temporarily go back to a traditional board on occasion, and it is almost never enjoyable, at least from a comfort / productivity standpoint. Some of them do sound and feel really nice though! (Keychron Q60 is my current fav)
keyball39
hadn't actually heard of this one before. it looks nice
Yeah, that's another one with a built-in trackball that looks interesting. There's also a 44 and 61 key version.
As far as flat ergonomic keebs with built-in pointing devices go, the BastardKB Dilemma or Dilemma Max have a built-in trackpad, which could be nice for mobile use. Choice of Choc or MX switches, and optional 1-2 rotary encoders (or regular thumb key instead of each rotary).
For stationary use, key wells are my preference, currently getting used to a BastardKB Charybdis.