Keys To A Dream Software Development Setup
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- Опубліковано 6 чер 2023
- An overview of some novel approaches to the computer keyboard, both in terms of physical layout and key mappings.
Keyboards in this video:
Redragon K552 - amzn.to/3oNtpD7
Keychron Q1 - amzn.to/3YkJNrB
Keebio Iris - keeb.io/collections/iris-spli...
Purple Gradient Keycaps on Iris - amzn.to/3UZq93f
Corne v3 - shop.beekeeb.com/product/pre-...
Apollo themed keycaps on Corne - amzn.to/3IXKPUc
Chocofi - shop.beekeeb.com/product/pres...
Piantor - shop.beekeeb.com/product/pre-...
Kinesis Advantage360 Professional - amzn.to/3Ce5zUf
Glove80 - www.moergo.com/collections/gl...
Stuff I use to make videos in general:
Camera: Canon EOS R5 amzn.to/3CCrxzl
Monitor: Dell U4914DW 49in amzn.to/3MJV1jx
SSD for Video Editing: VectoTech Rapid 8TB amzn.to/3hXz9TM
Microphone 1: Rode NT1-A amzn.to/3vWM4gL
Microphone 2: Seinheiser 416 amzn.to/3Fkti60
Microphone Interface: Focusrite Clarett+ 2Pre amzn.to/3J5dy7S
Tripod: JOBY GorillaPod 5K amzn.to/3JaPxMA
Mouse: Razer DeathAdder amzn.to/3J9fYCf
Keyboard (sometimes): Keychron Q1 amzn.to/3YkJNrB
Keycaps (sometimes): amzn.to/3UZq93f
Computer: 2021 Macbook Pro amzn.to/3J7FXtW
Lens 1: Canon RF50mm F 1.2L USM amzn.to/3qeJrX6
Lens 2: Canon RF24mm F1.8 Macro is STM Lens amzn.to/3UUs1bB
Caffeine: High Brew Cold Brew Coffee amzn.to/3hXyx0q
More Caffeine: Monster Energy Juice, Pipeline Punch amzn.to/3Czmfox
Building A Second Brain book: amzn.to/3cIShWf - Наука та технологія
Ok many have been asking for my QMK/ZMK configs, here they are:
Corne - github.com/Me163/keyboard_layouts_qmk/tree/master/corne
Iris - github.com/Me163/keyboard_layouts_qmk/tree/master/iris
Kinesis Advantage 360 - github.com/Me163/Adv360-Pro-ZMK
Glove80 - github.com/Me163/glove80-zmk-config
Chocofi - github.com/Me163/zmk-config-chocofi
I'm not making the Piantor available quite yet as setting it up was a bit of an oddball compared to the rest and I'm not sure if I did it right. But the layout I use on the Piantor is identical to the one I use on the Corne.
Nice, thank you! Really like that you and Primeagen referenced each other. :)
I bought a CharaChorder a while back, which has posts that your fingers move up/down/left/right; so, a LOT less moving to different "keys." Practiced a bit; it's in storage now, looking forward to trying it out again after the move.
Years ago, I "invented" (in-head) an upgraded videogame controller. It'd be somewhat the opposite: it'd have "wells" you insert your fingers in, and could then register up/down/left/right, and also pushing down, so 5 operations per finger.
Never got around to building it. Feel free! :)
Unimportant questions on your Glove80 layout:
Numbers across homerow is interesting. It's there a reason you prefer that to a number pad on one hand centered on homerow on your second layer? It's not something I've tried.
Do you play computer games at all? If so, how do you work around that? (I have a "standard" layout shifted to put WASD with the D on the normal F key to keep my hand on homerow and minimize remapping for games on my dactyl manuform for instance)
You're making me consider trying a keyboard with those low profile keyswitches now.
lol if i would use neovim or smt like that, i would literally bind motions to use wasd ...
hjkl is so awkward, one of the reasons i never bothereed with neovim much , just configured vscode as much as i could to my own liking either with custom hotkeys, settings and plugins
maybe its because i have 85layout havit keyboard, it doesnt seem to be standard layout, where keys supposed to be... i misclick a lot, and caps themselves seem smaller than standard...
anyone know good mechanical keyboard wich has nice sized caps ?
I came to the comments specifically to ask for this. Thank you!
Every time I see anyone going split ortholinear I regain faith in humanity. You reaching up to the glove80 really impressed me
thanks! yeah really happy with the Glove80 so far, I love the other boards featured in this video too but the Glove is hard to beat
It's a very interesting choice to go for a huge keyboard, usually people go smaller and smaller since the whole "ergo keyboard" endgame is mainly about reducing finger movement. Most people find out how insanely useful layers are and never look back. The one thing I haven't dropped yet is the pinky column. I may try a layout that doesn't use the pinky columns since I'm already using home row mods, and since I can just yank the keycaps off of the corne I might at least give it a try.
@@kylehart8829 the thing is that the glove80 allows you to teach a lot of keys with very little finger movement
@@kylehart8829 I personally just ordered a Glove80 after trying it. I've been using 36 keys for quite a while and even though the Glove80 has so many keys available, I'll probably stick to the 36 + a bit. So will probably not use almost half of the keys on it. The curve on it though, that's what makes it special and from what I tested.
I've been using a plank but now I'm ready to get a chocofi keyboard. Thank you so much for such a high quality video and awesome introduction to these next-gen keyboards!
nice, the Chocofi is fantastic! Thanks for the kind words!
One year ago, having switched to vim, I decided to go one step further and try out a Ferris Sweep v2 (34 keys) with a custom layout and put my mod keys on the home row. I liked the elegant minimalist design. It's so comfortable to work with it, I'm never going back to a traditionnal keyboard, ever.
Really high quality video. Pacing and script was on point
thanks so much for the kind words, glad you liked it!
This is such an incredible video. I have been looking into purchasing a split keyboard and this video is huge help. Thanks a lot!
I have a split key board for over 8 years, never tried it... Ergo team gave me one. Now I gotta try it!
Great video. thanks for digging into the details!
wow thank you so much for the support! Really happy you got something out of the video!!
really appreciate the time and effort put into this video .
Happily been using Corne for bit over 2 years now. Love it.
nice, the Corne is fantastic! Absolutely worthy of being an endgame board imo
I've been transitionning to split keyboard since two month ago. And I'm loving it ! Bought the Voyager zsa, it small enough to take everywhere, beautifull and pretty reliable. It takes some time to configurethe layout to your liking, but once it's done there's nothing that will make me come back to a traditionnal keyboard
This video is on par with a Project Farm tool comparison video. Super well done. Great research and presentation of each keyboard, as well as your journey.
thank you! I hadn't heard of Project Farm, will have to check it out
Yeah I bet you'd enjoy it. He compares a lot of products (primarily tools in the same category), with most of the projects coming from suggestions in the community. He's like a one man consumer reports resource.
I've loved ergo boards since the original off white/grey Microsoft Natural keyboard that I used for a very long time. My first foray into split boards was the Kinesis Freestyle RGB. And what really got me to find it was a RGB. At the time I was using a black MS 4000 and the only thing I didn't like was not being able to see the keys when I had my room dark. I kept looking for an ergo RGB board now and again until the Kinesis finally showed up on the scene. I liked the board overall and being able to do a shoulder width split and tenting was just awesome. Still a staggered board though. It wasn't until a few years later that the ergo world took off and like you, my number of boards has grown. I got a ZSA Moonlander, which I really love, and that was my first experience with columnar and QMK. Like you, I hooked a lot of my layers to hold down home row keys and that's completely changed how I interact with the computer for the better. It makes it kind of hard to use a normal keyboard now, like on my laptop. It's like I forget what a lot of the combos for certain shortcuts are now because they are just baked into the layers I created, which is awesome. Hold down F to change my right hand to arrow keys and other cursor movements like home, end, move forward word, move back word, is just awesome. The Moonlander lead me to splurge on the Planck EZ Glow, which I like for completely different reasons and has almost the same layer setup as my Moonlander. Then the Voyager came out, which I'm using right now and is my first experience with Choc switches. I really like the Voyager. And I'm waiting on a Dygma Defy to show up. Crazy how expensive a keyboard hobby can get. Not as bad as rediscovering Lego as an adult, but still pretty bad.
I was curious about the corne and was leaning towards that to start my nextgen keyboard journey. After watching this, I think the Kinesis and the glove80 would suit me better. Thanks for the video man!
nice, really happy you got something out of the video! I don't think you can go wrong with any of those 3 boards - they are all fantastic.
I've spend so many hours researching keyboards. Ended up with the sofle(corne + number keys). It's a great starter board for those of us who could not commit to only 3 rows. Super expensive to get it imported here to Sweden, but totally worth it! Having vim arrow keys is just the best!
Sofle looks really nice! and YES re: vim arrow keys! amazing to be able to use hjkl to move the cursor around in non-vim programs with a layer key pressed
Definitely try dropping the number row, Sofle is a great one to get since you can try those smaller layouts without committing to them. Worst case scenario you hate using layers so much and revert, but it's worth trying for sure.
I have a sofle too. Having the knobs for scrolling volume and zoom is awesome.
glove80 truly is the endgame. I love mine.
From the POV of someone who wants more than 70keys, I agree its the best, while I think it can be improved.
- The 8 upper pinky keys are unreachable, the curvature radius of the pinky columns contour is greater than the others (for esthetic reasons I guess), while the pinkies are shorter so the curvature radius should be smaller !
- The 6 innermost thumb keys are a pain to reach, it is necessary to stretch the hand sideways or move it entirely. I think that the thumb cluster should be shifted a bit below and outwards to make all thumb keys easily accessible.
Endgame: The mythical beast of keebs hobby
I ended up buying the piantor after a month of looking through options. It should be here in a month or so, and I'm excited to try it out. I wouldn't have known about it without this video. I think it is the fewest keys I could go to without previously using a next gen keyboard.
nice, congrats! I personally love the Piantor - there will definitely be a learning curve but it will be worth it 😎
Wow, this video has been quite interesting. I dont think that I will use a split keyboard ever, but those home row mods sound so good. Thats right up my alley of keyboard optimization. I will definitely try that one.
they are worth a try! it frees up so many other keys that you can then use for other purposes.
one other approach I just thought of for those that want to make even less heavy handed changes (no pun intended) is to keep the mods where they are, but have them serve other purposes when they are tapped as opposed to held. Just a fleeting thought. Theoretically you could use both approaches at the same time...
Homerow mods are the truth, and I think everyone should try them.
I'm also a big fan of split keyboards for comfort. You don't have to go non-staggered or non-flat if you don't want to change too many things, but I'm never going back after making a dactyl manuform (similar in design to the Glove80 shown, but 3d printed).
Got the Advantage 360, and it’s so nice for my wrists. Much more comfortable to type. I really like the keywells and the staggered heights. Wish I would have switched to a split form factor years ago.
I have KinesisAdvantage2, Moonlander and now, you have convinced me to buy Glove80, just bought it, and can't wait for delivery :)
congrats, really happy the video helped - report back on how you like the Glove80!
6:28 Thank you so much for showing this! After watching the video I looked it up and it's a game changer for me!
Just ordered parts for an ergo travel. I like the look of the inside keys for brackets instead of having extra keys on the pinkeys
I respect your commitment.
Thank you!
I recently got a ZSA Moonlander, I've been very happy with it so far. This video has given me some great ideas on new layers and macros to try. Thanks!
The moonlander is actually great for trying smaller layouts too since it has hot swap. You can just rearrange things so you can see roughly how a corne or iris feels, and if you're morbidly curious you can try even smaller stuff. Or you can just drop the number row, whatever you want to do.
I’ve been using ZSA Moonlander for half a year or so, and I still have no idea how to properly use the red thumb key lol
@@rondYT According to ZSA with your index finger
@@kylehart8829 this is what I've done, effectively turned it into a ZSA Voyager by removing 9 keys and the red thumb key on each side. In the long run I'll probably get a Voyager but this works for now
I got a Lily58 as my first split board and I'm quite happy with it. It took an adjustment period but after a month or so I'm quite proficient with it and I don't see myself going back to a regular keyboard ever.
nice, the Lily58 looks like a great board. Reminds me of the Iris but it looks like the Lily has much better thumb key placement. Definitely with you on never going back to a regular board!
@@codetothemoon got mine recently too, to be honest the leftmost and rightmost thumb keys are a little awkward to hit with your thumb depending on the combination, but otherwise it's a great board.
Here an user of two cornes, (one MX and a choc), Happy to know about other compact kbs and even happier about the home row. Great explanations and video as always.
Personally i enjoy my ergodox moonlander a great deal.
Thank you for spending all this money and more importantly time to bring us this roundup!
nice and thank you! Cornes are fantastic. hopefully this new awareness doesn't turn into a money pit like it did for me 🙃
@@codetothemoon nope, not from you, but a money pit for sure. This is my second corne and planning to buy and build a new kit sooner than later. Thanks for replying! BTW your Rust contents are great.
What is your preference and the major differences you’ve noticed between max and choc?
Mx and choc**
The mini42 and mini36 by controllerworks are some other boards similar to the corne, chocofi, and piantor layout. The RP2040 MCU circuitry and OLED display are embedded onto the board making it as small as possible. The top half of the case is CNC aluminum designed to fit the board and switches with a nicely designed bottom plate for RGB light diffusion. It's very nice If you want something premium feeling in addition to ergonomics. In addition to that, they've integrated esd and over current protection for the trrs cable design so you don't accidentally short the board(s) when disconnect them while powered. For around the same price as most presoldered, it's not a bad deal.
Insane how loud those "silent" switches are
the video gives a somewhat distorted perspective, as I had to substantially raise the volume on the Iris clips to capture the nuances of the sound. In reality they are considerably more quiet than all of the other boards I use in the video
Thankyou for you service
great video and a better list of what is available than what i was able to find when i was looking into it.
you might want to look into different key layouts.
im using a modified version of halmak.
there is a bunch of misinformation, like travel being bad.
what you really want is clustered travel. those buttons on the top of the keyboard that you dont use often would be great global control for your layers. so no matter what layer you are on you can navigate to the typing mode with the push of one button.
these families of infrequent buttons matter but dont fit with the current paradigm.
what we really should use is space on left hand pointer, and backspace one to the right. my current loadout uses that one for all punctuations. single press is apostraphee, double is semi, double hold is colon. but while i use colon more frequently than expected, i rarely use apostraphe.
so there is a small stretch for mistakes. and it would be better if we could macro in 'delete word' to the backspace.
on the right hand home row of halmak is the main vowels : aeoi.
on the left hand of my modified halmak is : shnt from left to right. what i noticed and changed in terms of layout is a shift from simple likelyhood to treat consonant clusters together. having nt next to one another is great. and st is also nice. also it is nice that since words have small clusters of consonants and then vowels, i can alternatively pater pressing down with one hand then the other. you mentioned wanting to avoid using the pinky, but i find it easiest cause you can use your whole hand slightly rotating it. your pinky and ring finger share mostly the same muscles so your pinky is probably more useful.
but some of the layout is ucky. i have w in the pinky collum of my non dominant hand. and it is bad. also i moved the tab away which was a really bad choice.
emacs is a bit over rated but the different navigation and text in modes seem nice. i put the arrows on the bottom row of my loadout is emacs layout and it is... okay. better than an inverted T. there have been solutions for navigating uis without directly using a mouse and that seems to be the bigger jump awaiting us.
i started with moonlander and moving the mouse with the keyboard is painful. they have special move mouse in cardinal directions commands but they dont go to items on the screen it is just pixel adjustments.
i think we need to have a new generation of more context aware boards.
While I appreciate the information and will definitely take a look at the glove80 as a starting point. I just do not understand the keyboard minimalist things for software devs, 99.9% of the time typing is not my bottleneck it's thinking about what I'm doing, also I can't be alone in having a very physical muscle memory that doesn't like key locations switching purpose (AKA layers) same reason I don't like virtual desktops and do like many, many monitors. I think I'd consider the glove80 split 3 ways with a numpad and extra keys on the sides for little used functions. I swear that I'd prefer to have no overloading on symbol keys at all
I think the underlying premise of what you're saying is the assumption that the intent of minimalist keyboards is to reduce time spent typing, which I don't think is really the case for most folks. For me (and many others) it's primarily to increase comfort, which potentially might mean the ability to be more productive (but not because of an increase in typing speed). Regarding layers - you're already using them - the Shift key is essentially a layer switch 😎
I'm a bit late to the party here but figured I'd toss out my thoughts. I used a Planck for years, only 4 total rows, with the Colemak layout. I got this point brought up a ton over the past decade about typing speed. People rightfully mention that the boost in typing speed isn't really fixing any bottlenecks and likely isn't worth the learning curve. Based on only that metric they are correct. But I think my reasons for switching go past WPM, efficiency, or even productivity. For me I've always felt like the keyboard is a prohibitive layer between me interfacing with my PC. There's something about being able to control every key, minimally and efficiently, that makes it easier to keep my flow when working. Not sure if you've ever used VIM, but I felt the same about that for a long time. Why would someone learn this stuff? Typing was never my bottleneck when programming, why do I care if we're selecting and moving text slightly faster. It wasn't really until I dove in and started using it a bit that I understood that speed wasn't really the point, it was being able to turn my thoughts into action in the computer with less friction.
Anyways thats random thoughts on it. Definitely not for everyone but I think even if no one ends up sticking with it theres some value to trying out some crazy layouts and seeing how it feels. Worst case scenario you find out you were already using your best layout!
It totally makes sense to me that for some people having all the keys laid out whether visually or individually would be really important - because brains work differently
In the shift key that makes capital letters and other things you can see of you look, is different than a layer change that changes everything into a bunch of invisible characters
We do use layers every time we type shortcuts with the mod keys. Ctrl + A is one key in a whole layer triggered by the Ctrl key. But we don’t think of it that way
The minimalist keyboards have barriers like this. And I really see where some maple just would never have any benefit from that
You don’t really talk about the ergonomically reasons a lot of people seek out split keyboards and wrist issues making people want tenting and such. But those are a whole other thing that kind of don’t give some people a choice eventually
I agree with you to an extent. I'll never understand super minimalism, but my keyboard has 64 keys, which is WAY less than a standard keyboard, but was comparatively easy to transition to, and makes my keyboard easy to use for things like gaming. I still use layers, sometimes for things like a number pad and arrow keys on my homerow so my hands never really have to move around the keyboard.
It’s amazing how similar our keyboard journeys are, i went sofle where you went iris, i went 36 key choc corne straight away after. My next step is a chardybis nano though, 36 keys like the chocify but sculpted like the glove. you sure you don’t need a new board? 👀
I've definitely gone down the keyboard rabbit hole... but have not been as brave as you to tally up how much I've spent on it lol. I wish I had this video when I was starting out. I don't know if it would have the same effect as going through the motions myself and eventually settling on one of the keyboards in your list (I love my corne wireless keyboard!) but it would've been nice to have something to compare my experience to along the way. For anyone starting on this journey, I'd re-visit this as you explore choices and see if they're similar to yours. You could save quite a bit of time and money.
I have a corne but I'm in love with the charybdis nano, the one without number row, 6 columns (just as the corne) and with a trackball. It has a curved dactyl form but it's so expensive and hard to get!!
I'd been eyeing the exact same one and would love to try it as well, but as you say they seem really expensive and tough to get ahold of!
i use the charybdis 4x6 and i couldnt use anything else
Thanks for sharing, and it was very informative.
glad you got something out of it!
I’d like to go deeper down the rabbit hole, but I’m afraid of not being able to use a laptop anymore. It’s great to just have a single device to carry around and do some work.
This is an old comment, but I switched to a split keyboard, this is my experience using a laptop/normal keyboard now.
I rarely use a laptop, but when I do I pick up typing within a minute or two. I imagine that using both helps keep muscle memory and will cancel out this transition delay. This seems to be consistent from what I read about other people's experiences.
I would take the following with a grain of salt because I'm not sure how many people experience this. The only issue I've come across using a laptop is that I get some wrist pain quickly when I go back to a non split keyboard, although I'm positive it has to do with not using that layout for a long time.
I've got a Kyria and an Ergodox (which I never use) I have a 36 key layout on my kyria though, so I'm planning on downsizing to a Chocofi (for working outside of home) and a skeletyl (a 3x5 + 3 dactyl manuform designed by Bastardkb) for use in my home office. LOVE me some home row mods, I also have layers on each of my thumb keys to get to symbols and numbers. Personally I don't think I'll ever go back to a fullsize board for just regular writing and programming, I have done way too many little convenience tweaks. Plus my vim muscle memory relies on the layout I currently use. Gaming sucks though, so I'll probably get a backup 60% board for playing games
So if you are a dev and you have extra keys that you don't use for typing. Build macros on those keys. Like write out default function/class structures, logging, etc etc. Saves a lot of time
That’s what snippets in your text editor are for. And you can navigate those with Tab to fill in the blanks in the templates.
@@abc33155 your assumption is that everyone is working in proper text editors x)
haha i wish... working in cloud solutions/on web based systems. You don't get the fancy text editors to work with :D
i have a lot of vim keybindings for that stuff. leader + one or two keys to do something quickly.
Thank you. Just ordered a lily58 and this gave me somehow a preface of my future spendings (and lengthy explanations with my wife why this is such a necesssry expense 😮)
nice, welcome to the rabbit hole! My wife has definitely rolled her eyes at me more than once after glancing at my keyboard collection...
Down the rabbit hole I go! I ordered a Piantor after watching this vid - I've wrestled with touch typing ergonomics for a lot longer than necessary, it seems.... I'm going to give Colemak-DH a try while I'm at it, - this should be a fun journey!
nice! it's a great board. I haven't made the leap into Colemak myself, but I got to about 50wpm on the home row keys and it does feel really nice. I've also heard anecdotally that learning it on an ortholinear board might make it easier for the brain to transition back to qwerty on a traditional board. No idea if that's true, just something I've heard
I'm curious to see if you will get the Digma Defy to keep this journey on - and record your impressions on it - also the Digma Raise with the tenting kit.
Cheers from Brazil, thanks for the great video.
love your keyboard
thanks! which one though? 😎
You got into the rabbit hole. I started off with a refurbished Corsair K70 and now I'm writing this on a mountain everest keyboard with lubed and filmed holy pandas switches and pbs keycaps. It's an amazing keyboard but this is the hobby you want if your thing is loosing money.
I'm actually upgrading from an ergodox I built to a glove80, so this video was interesting to me.
nice, if you're willing definitely report back on how you like it!
Love this!
It’s all your fault!!! 🙃
We need a link to your keymap, zmk and qmk pls :D
Also have you tried using combos to replace the keys you placed on your extra pinky column? I find the use of combos to be awesome for keys like escape and backspace, at least on my ferris sweep (rust keyboard btw)
Awesome video. Been using the Corne for over a year and love it. Do you ever ever think about going back to staggered? I’m gonna guess no but would love to hear any reasons you’ve ever considered it
I feel like you're me, but further along the journey, I got the Q1, loved it, got the Iris, loved it, experimented with removing the top row ... loved it and started looking into a corne...
Haven't pulled the trigger yet because I wanted to try removing the outer column first, and I dont want to buy two keyboards, well I do, but theyre expesive and a hazzle to buy from europe.
Currently in the process of swiching to Colemak-DH, and once I feel comfortable with that I'm going to try a 36 over 42 to see if I should get a Corne, or something else.
Great video!
- Doctor I have a problem, please help me.
- Sure thing, please take a seat and tell me everything
- Hold on, let me take my 78 split keyboards that fit perfectly in my pockets
- Oh, I see....NURSEEEEE!
it seems plausible that keyboard addictions may steal the spotlight from more severe ailments....
I have a Corne but am looking at a premade called the Defy by Dygma Labs that is about to ship. It has a lot of optional features including built in tenting and an interesting thumb key design.
I keep hearing about the Defy! looks like a great board, hopefully I can get my hands on one to try it out...
I basically only like Clicky switches. The heavy glass trigger effect keeps me from making (more) typos, and it helps me to tell when I've fully pressed a key.
Yeah I can see that. I do think the click is a bit of a benefit to typing accuracy, just a matter of whether the noise tradeoff is worth it I guess. For me it's not really (at least in most situations)
@@codetothemoon That makes sense. Maybe there's some way to add initial resistance without a click. Almost definitely possible.
Planning on getting the Dygma Defy
nice, looks like a solid board! actually hadn't heard of it until you and a few others mentioned it in the comments
My guy, our mech key journey began almost exactly the same, only I bought Defender's, and it had wireless capabilities to boot, but for a price hardly higher Redragon's device. It features 7 color backlight with adjustable brightness and where applicable - speed of the light show.
sounds like a great board! one thing about these next gen boards is they definitely make me jealous of the price points of "traditional" mech boards...
@@codetothemoon absolutely! They're so cheap now I was very cautious of buying mine because that just didn't compute, yet it does in fact work, and it works great. The only thing I kinda regret is that it's a 61 key board, so things like arrow keys, locks and home/end buttons are only accessible with fn key being pressed, which makes me wish it was a 64 key or whatever, but then again it makes me glad I use a lot of programs with Vim controls 😸
For someone who has extreme wrist pain and RSI issues, which is the MOST comfortable and less fatiguing to type on for a full work day? I assume it would be the glove 80 or the Kinesis? Among those two boards, do you feel that the comfort level is the same, or is one more comfy than the other?
$40 full sized Chrerry MX Red mech keeb from 5 years ago still going strong 💪
The key to making it perform like a $400 keeb: Space Cadet like mappings through karabiner and xmodmap
nice! stick with whatever works best for you! I hadn't heard of Karabiner - looks like a great way to customize the layout of boards that don't themselves allow for customization
I've been using a Corne for a few weeks now and can say that it's an absolute joy to use. I've been using home row mods for about a week and can definitely see the benefits although I'm going to need a little more time to really get used to them. Speaking of switches, have you tried the new kailh sunset switches? They're definitely the best ones I've ever used for low profile choc keys!
nice, yeah what a fantastic board. I have the Corne as part of my setup in a different room and I still love using it even though the Glove80 is my "main driver" atm. I haven't tried kailh sunsets, maybe I'll order some. Thanks for the recommendation!
@@codetothemoon currently using a Ferris sweep which is 34 keys and low profile and really considering switching to corne for those 8 more keys (3 on each side plus one more thumb). And I’d love to get an awesome set of full size key caps. Thoughts on full switches vs low profile? Glove is low profile it looks like?
I never heard anybody say Corne 🌽 before, and in my head I’ve been pronouncing the last e = Corné 😅
Actually a really good informative video. Although I couldn't help but notice the "H" and "G" key were the wrong way around on the Corne v3. I just couldnt unsee it haha
thank you! yes they are indeed erroneously swapped - funny, somebody pointed this out in a previous video I made with this board and I neglected to fix it. another reason blank caps are great - no need to worry about such a thing 🙃
finally someone else with a corne
Great video. We need to see more of these types of videos . I would add two very important things. 1. The corn keyboard now comes in low profile version. 2. I think very aggressive pinky staggers are a mistake. The corne is more ergonomic for sure... The very aggressive pinky staggers cause you to pull down your pinky further which is quite unnatural when done repetitively. Again great video.
For boards like the chocify, piantor, and corne, you can build them for $100 if you really try and stick to budget switches and keycaps. I built my choc corne for $150, but printed the case and soldered it myself though.
great video! For me, an integrated pointing device is the future killer feature of any split/ergo/mech keyboard. Luckily it starts…. slowly.
thank you! I'm quite curious about boards with built in pointing devices as well, unfortunately i haven't tried any yet. the boards from bastard keyboards look pretty interesting (charbydis, etc), and also the Naya create which hasn't come out yet
Finally got my moonlander and I'm pretty happy with it, but will definitely need to try a concave keywell at some point, I should probably actually use my ender 5 and build my own dactyl... But first a switch change and maybe try to mod in a trackpoint or joystick (attached through one of the hotswap ports).
nice, I've heard so many great things about the Moonlander. I've also been curious about the prospect of adding some kind of mouse replacement to the keyboard itself - seems like it'd save a ton of hand movement
I spent a ton of money on keyboards too. Eventually settled on the UHK. Only gripe is that the arrow keys are chorded, and you have to hold another key to use them.
I feel scared watching this video, but it's one of my absolute favorite videos on youtube. I used mechanical keyboards before, and entered the world of next gen keyboards with the corne in January, then got the lily58 just in case I need the number row, turns out... I don't use it at all anymore. And now I want to try the chocofi and the piantor... coincidence ? I don't think so.
Anyways, great content ! could you share your configuration of home row mods ? I feel like I have a hard time getting used to them on heavier switches, but on lighter switches they work wonders !
ESC at its usual position is still the most satisfying key to slam. Change my mind!
oh man - how often do you need to use escape in your daily workflow? I can see its default location being satisfying if you're using it a few times per day - but if you need to use it a ton (such as when using vim) having it immediately to the left of your left pinky feels luxurious
@@codetothemoon yeah good argument. But can you imagine, I am a keyboard enthusiast with a self built and very expensive keyboard, but I don't use Vim ^^
I have a pretty heavy ego shooter past, so I just like to use my mouse for coding :D
@@st0ox lol 360 no scopez in VSCode?
@@codetothemoon yes but jetbrains
I got the zsa moonlander I really like it but I had been wondering how some people use less keys like you showed and I really like the idea of home row modifiers.
nice, seems like the Moonlander is a solid board! I haven't personally tried one but I haven't heard a single bad thing about it. Less keys is really freeing, both because of the extra desk space and also the negated need to move your fingers more than one key from the home row
Damn, I didn’t know I needed a video like this. I’ve tried many keyboards as well, classic and split, also 32-key keyboards. I think I’m gonna get a Piantor 🤔 By the way, what about the Moonlander by ZSA?
Code to Moon, do you feel the Glove 80 thumb cluster more comfortable than on the Kinesis?
Highly recommend the moonlander. To me, it just feels like some of the best of everything shown here. Like the Kinesis with the tenting and thumb clusters, but way less expensive, linear keys with stagger for finger length, pretty good portability with the only real downside being the need to untent before you go. Also Oryx is by far the best customization software I've used
I've heard fantastic things about the Moonlander. I'd definitely review one if they sent one to me, but I probably won't be buying one - I need to take it easy after the debauchery that led to this video 🙃
@@codetothemoon Lol completely understandable. But I would definitely recommend it to anyone here looking to get into this little ergonomic split keyboard world. Super approachable starting point that you can make do just about anything you want. They even have a kit to like plug in the switch holes if you want to make it a fewer key layout
wanted it too but it looks too ugly
the thumb keys on the moonlander are rather far away from the main key clusters compared to the other boards shown here
I'm used to the ANSI layout, but I bought my last laptop with the UK layout. I am still not used to it. Imagine if I had to entirely switch to that strange ergonomic double keyboard. I am too old for such a change.
Loved this video and your journey is similar to mine. Currently at the corne stage but I’ve not figured it out yet and keep going back to my preonic keyboard. Do you have a link to your corne layout btw?
Thanks, glad you liked it! Corne is fantastic - at this point I can't imagine needing more keys than the Corne (with the exception of more thumb keys, I can use those). I've just made a pinned comment with all of my configs - check it out!
What is it with CttM making videos about topics I just right now are interested in. First the DoomEmacs video, now a ergo keyboard video.
This has helped me a lot in choosing a new board to replace my over 10 year old G710+. Not because I'll be using any of the boards being shown, but rather because I was hesitant in switching to a smaller board and using layers.
Thanks!
oh no... a new rabbit hole to dive into
indeed!
have you seen the fulcrum keyboard? it has a 5 way thumb switch which fits our opposable thumbs more naturally than keys do
actually I hadn't heard of this one, looks really interesting! thanks for putting it on my radar.
Thank you for this video! I'm a little while out of college & decided I wanted to invest in a quality keyboard as a software engineer since I use it so much awhile ago. Well now, Im going to order a piantor to take a leap of faith to help with wrist pain and a better typing experience since Ive never been fully comfortable with QWERTY
nice let us know how you like it!
@@codetothemoon I’m about 5 days in now and loving it so much! I have dropped from ~90wpm to 15wpm but I was ready for that. I do however look forward to typing everyday now & I can’t say I’ve ever felt excited about typing before now. Can’t wait to master this board.
@@studxmuffin5641 sweet so happy to hear that you like it! that sort of drop in speed is quite expected - you'll get back to where you were faster than you think 😎
@@codetothemoon Hi again! So I'm awhile in now obviously and this is fantastic. I swap freely between this piantor for programming and my normal board for gaming and I am so happy. Biggest thing honestly is I feel like a total badass when I use it, absolutely fills the 90's hackerman mecha-pilot fantasy and I couldn't be happier.
Nice video! I'm inspired to take the plunge into ergo KBs. Also, have you noticed, while editing this video, that your M an N keys are switched on the corne? 🤣
I converted to both split column staggered keyboard and colemak (and learnt vim) at the same time 10 months ago and it's one of the best decisions I ever made. I always take pleasure typing anything on my keyboard now. Now that I'm there, I really don't get the keyboard channel that stay in the old typewriter realm.
I am using a keyboard that is very similar to the piantor but has an additonal thumb key in the exterior of each thumb called the claw44 (though it's only available from Japan I think).
Similar. Learned vim recently on a 60% keyboard that I had been using for years. Then switched to an orthlinear (like the planc) for a month before building a corne (only needed the PCB and some parts for $30). Then learned colemak, then soul-mak, and now hands-down. I added tenting to the corne and got a vertical mouse too. So many big changes, but such an improvement.
I tried learning colemak years ago, but it was too difficult when I was switching back to qwerty to install software on other PCs. I'm excited to try it with the blank keys on the piantor now that I'm always on the same PC. I'm also in the process of learning neovim, but am holding out for making custom keymaps and learning motions until I get the new board. Any tips on ways to learn all of these things?
@@blaze9872 For colemak, it's just practice. It took me a month to get to a comfortable typing speed. I mostly practiced on Monkeytype.
For Neovim, I would say the magic is mostly hidden and you won't know what you can do until you actually see someone else do it. Watch videos of other people using Vim/Neovim, then trying reproducing. It's also important to not change the default keymaps as everyone uses them. However, if you use plugins, they have their own dedicated keys that (usually) don't interfere with default, but can interfere with other custom plugin keys, so that's something to watch out for. At some point you will ask yourself why you can't just use "A" to insert something directly at the end of the line in other editors. That's when you know you got the basics.
@@RedSkyWhisperEnd lets you insert text at the end of a line and it works everywhere. Obviously, I have it on a layer on a convenient key. I guess Vim users can have their End on a modifier+a and use it with a modifier key when they are outside of Vim.
@@abc33155 that was just one example, you can also just look for a particular word and go there directly without moving you fingers away from your keyboard with Vim. There is so much more that can be done that is impossible to just have in one comment. The other thing is "A" is end of line, and "a" is end of word. You can get where you want with less keystrokes than when using a regular editor.
I ended up with 3 moonlanders all in 40 keys configuration :) I have one at home, one in the office and one spare for testing new ideas..
nice! once you find a board you love, it makes a lot of sense to have multiple. Will probably wind up with multiple Glove80s soon...
Great video. You inspire me to try out using less keys. I always hate when programming and having to type {, } \ etc... I figure before I go out and buy a 60% keybard I just start by modding my 75% keyboard and getting a feeling of using layers in the keyboard. What software for windows do you recommend?
Best split keyboard comparison currently online!
Question please: How does the “height” (curvature seems the same) of the keycaps influence your tactile “situational awareness” between the Kinesis Advantage360 vs Glove80? As you move your fingers back and forth, is one keyboard easier for you to get back to the home row or locate some far-away key?
I speak from my own experience of “normal height” vs “flatter” keyboards. It seems to me like the “edges” and “walls” of the taller keycaps to aid as a reference on the Kinesis (non split… haven’t migrated to the Advantage360 yet). Sorry for the metaphors, hopefully I’m sorta-kinda understandable?
Also, have you noticed any touch-typing speed difference between the Advantage360 and the Glove80?
Thanks so much for the effort you put into buying, comparing, shooting, editing… As a film guy, I realize how much work such a condensed 13 minutes require!
I have both the Advantage and the Glove80 and one of my fears was that the uniform profile of the Glove80 would make it harder to find keys. I haven't had any issues in practice though, I think (in contrast to flat keyboards) the key wells help you guide towards the keys.
By the way, the curvature is definitely not the same. Eg. in contrast to the Advantage, the pinky column of the Glove80 doesn't only account for that the pinky is much shorter than other fingers when stretched, but also that this difference becomes smaller as you curl up your fingers.
@@nonagoninf - Wow, thanks for such a detailed comment, Daniël! Now I’m even more ambivalent about the choice between the two… maybe I’ll order both. 🤷🏻♂😂
@@anatoly.ivanov There is definitely a FOMO-aspect of not trying both 😅. The Advantage360 is fine, but the Glove80 has been the better keyboard for me so far. It's also a bit more affordable.
@@nonagoninf - OK, OK… I’ll get both, there seems to be no other way around it. Our hands are so different, even though to the aliens, we’d all look and function exactly the same. 😂
I used to use that same Red Dragon keyboard with blue switches. I actually love how it types, I just don't like the noise.
yeah totally agree. I actually wound up getting one with red switches for my wife, and I could easily use it as a daily driver if I had to. I agree the blue switches do feel pretty nice but the noise is obnoxious - even if I'm not in an office it makes it impossible to take notes during zoom meetings etc
I think I'm moving from corne to piantor or cantor, whatever has more vertical stagger for that P letter that I fail to hit since forever.
Kmonad or similar software(keyd, ktrl, kanata) can have most features of qmk/zmk boards. This could be helpful if you want to experiment with layout without spending. I do think concave keyboards are much better.
Just came across this video, however, our starting and ending keyboards are the same. The only difference is that I skipped the middle steps and went directly from Red dragon k552 to Glove80. Just ordered it a few days ago and still waiting on it.
My game dev friend saw this and is in the process of building a ferris sweep, which is like the chocofi but with 34 keys instead of 36
nice! heard great things about the sweep, would love to try one at some point
My path: Logitech G710+ with Cherry Browns, Keebio KBO-5000 with Kaihl Hako Violets and Chosfox x Kailh Arctic Fox for function keys, and now resting on a 3D Printed hand-wired Dactyl 5x6 with 4 thumb clusters, using a mix of Akko Jelly Lavenders and Kaihl Owl Whites for function keys, with some spare Hako Voilets on things I want more friction on. I'm thinking about building a split Planck next for portable use, though I'd really love to just build a Corne.
That said, the Glove80? Looks amazing, but dear lord the price...
Having that money spent on keyboards deserves at least a like & comment 😅
hah thank you so much! 😎
Corsair K100. That's all I will ever need.
heard great things about that board, would love to give one a spin at some point!
Been down this rabbit-hole also..
Gone through many but currently stabilized on Adv 360 and Keyboardio Atreus.
Intrigued about the glove 80 tho.. But for the time have sated my ravenous rabid thirst... as what happens when you fall down this hole... Thirst quenched... for now..
The thumb is not just for the spacebar but for the trackpad as well on laptops.
Thats what these keyboards are missing if you ever use the mouse. You would have to take your hand all the way off the keyboard to use the mouse, kind of negating the whole efficiency of these keyboards (if you use the mouse)
good point! personally i'm not very productive with trackpads, but I agree that the board/mouse transition can be a huge productivity killer. To your point, one option is to avoid the mouse (not a problem for vim and emacs users), another might be to look into keyboards with built-in track balls, like this one that I believe is currently in development naya.tech/
On my Dygma Raise I have a "movement" layer that allows me to control the mouse with keys. Not ideal, but for when there's no other option but the mouse it's pretty handy.
Ultimate Hacking Keyboard with Trackpad module
When I saw possibility to have different action, especially modifier/layer swith on hold, I immediately figured out home row modifier as must. But to this day I didn't move from my M$ ergonomic 4000 to my first 'better' keyboard -- ergodox ez because of 2 things: combinations: every bigger program/ide wants you to press ctrl+alt+shift F13, which is hard to achieve even will all keys ergodox has, so I'd really like to know how (if) you tackled this with those small boards.
Yes and second reason I still did not transition is insufficient negative tilt support and board instability. I need to create some custom support, which is stable and good. The ergodox 'legs' are garbage and palm rests as well. Good negative tilt with palm support is simply not possible out of the box, the board is not stable at all. The glove80 looks nice, but also does not seem to have sufficient palm support/negative tilt. And that tripod mounting, jeez, that will suck to type on it.
Pressing A/; = ALT, S/L = Win, D/K = Shift, F/J = Ctrl. You can press the combination of them on one side and + the letter on another side to get all the combinations. Many simple combinations can be done with one hand (Ctrl+S to save = F+S. Ctrl+T to open a new tab = F+T. Ctrl+W, Ctrl+Q, Ctrl+Z/X/C/V, Win+E, etc. If the combination also requires some of the F-key, then also press the main layers switching key (Caps on the left side and the nearest thumb key on the right), which will change the number keys into the corresponding F-key.
Google "Dreymar extend" for ideas.
@@MachoMaster thanks for reply. I know dreymar and his magnificient work on linux xkb. When it comes to layout, my hands sadly disagrees with him a little. ~ Your suggestion has problem with ctrl+alt+shift combos, which you will need index, midle and pinky finger pressing. On MS ergo this is achieved by leaving home row and allowing to press the button as hand wants. I was trying to achieve this without leaving home row, but it's simply not possible. You will always endup in so pain causing combo, weirdly layout keys or dedicated buttons for multi modifiers. With lots of keys missing I also need some place for arrows, pgup/home/..., multipedia, F keys and damn indeed, all aff those need all possible modifiers combinations. Yes, I don't use vim. So you need momentary switches for these layers as well. I think I almost have it, but damn, it's not easy and it's rather crammed ;) ~ Yes, I opted to smth similar as you suggest, just pinky=ctrl, ring =meta, middle = alt to maximize compatibility with standard keyboards. Some combos like ctrl-s are less nice, sure.
"dream software development setup" while the video is actually about keyboards... But I'll watch anyway !
*Keys* to the dream software development setup! 😎
@@codetothemoon fair enough 😂 Have you seen those crazy CharaChorder key(?)boards? I'm thinking about picking one up and using a community config to try programming on it. Bet it'll be weird and really difficult , but who knows 😁
I'm curious how you replace the mouse with a chocify keyboard. Is there a way to drop a lenovo trackpoint on there? If you want to keep your keys on the home row, don't you also need a mouse?
None of the keyboards in this video aim to replace the mouse, though there are keyboards that do - I think there is a Dactyl with a built-in trackball for example. That said, I don't use the mouse at all in my typical software development workflow.
Have you ever considered switching from QWERTY to DVORAK? I suffered from RSI around 15 years ago and switched to DVORAK back then. Honestly I can't ever imagine going back to QWERTY as I find DVORAK so much more efficient.
It takes a few months to get back to the same speed after learning DVORAK I found, and using a print-out of the layout as a reference while learning helped me. I just stuck it on my monitor as a reference for the first week or two.
Seems like that may be the cherry on top of the keyboard cake you have going there! 😊
It is worth nothing that Dvorak is rather outdated now, and modern developments in keyboard layouts have improved this significantly.
It is still a huge improvement over QWERTY, so there is that, but with the amount of time it can take to develop a solid muscle memory, it's worth looking at other options in my opinion.
@@sabbath9503 What layout do you suggest mate?
@@fotisgimian4258 Colemak seems to be the one of the best options right now. Particularly Colemak DH which is a newer altered Colemak. Just recently switched away from QWERTY (Day 5), and I'm liking it better already even though this took ages to type.
I've spent my remaining funds on a Piantor clone and now I'm broke, but with a nice keyboard!
lol nice which clone? and how do you like it?
@@codetothemoon well, you won't know it as it's handmade by a local and the only copy is mine, but it's called Piantoruv. Technically it's like two left plates of Piantor, functionally and visually it's identical to Piantor, but it doesn't support Piantor firmware, only custom QMK
Thanks for the video, but was hoping you'd show code being typed to showcase the use of layers.
Can we get a zmk repo. I pretty much had the same thoughs about 36 and 42 key boards and it would help tremendously if could copy your stuff over. Great video btw!
I loved my x-bows, but it wasn't configurable enough, so I went to a K8 pro. Still drooling over the keyboardio and moonlander though. I use that same reddragon (with browns) on my gaming desktop
I don't think I could go to a sub-50% keyboard. Just too many dedicated keys missing.
heard fantastic things about the moonlander but never tried one myself. totally understand wrt not being able to go sub 50%, especially for some games. I had to go back to a 100% board when I wanted to take a quick Flight Simulator break.
Have you considered a dactyl manuform? It sounds like it's exactly what you're looking for, basically the glove without the top two rows.
Considered it, and I'd still love to try one. The main concern for me is the height of the board relative to the height of your palms - this can probably be alleviated to some degree by using wrist wrests. Also hard to justify spending more on keyboards at the moment LOL
I like your videos❤❤❤
thank you!
He uses Emacs, now I know
Will you buy the dygma defy? I think that this will be a hot topic and a huge alternative in this keyboard area :)
looks like a solid board, I'd be happy to give it a review if they send me one but I probably won't be purchasing one - gotta cool it on the keyboard purchases after the debauchery that led to this video 🙃