Gwen's isn't the only trans narrative
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- Опубліковано 16 чер 2023
- Across the Spider-Verse is out. It's amazing. And there's a lot of discourse around it, especially when it comes to the character of Gwen Stacy and some pretty blatant transgender coding. And yes, I will be talking about that, but I don't plan to stop there. Because the trans themes run way deeper than just Gwen.
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I would actually say that I did read Hobie feels like a Queer elder to me. One that hasn't forgotten the roots of Pride and more focused on trying to give the tools for the next generation to not have to feel the same pain they did. Hobie also seems to refuse to let their pain define them.
This, this right here. Perfect
I'm so glad I'm not the only one who got the vibes of him being queer in some way shape or form lol
frrrrrr, i picked up on this "elder queer" vibe from hobie which led me into hcing her as unlabelled and goes by any/all pronouns
I mean he ‘is’ dating the Captain America of his dimension, Captain Ararky. He SUPER gay.
Another thing I read into: the scene where Miles comes out to Earth-42 Rio, only for her to say "who's Spider Man?", felt a lot like when I came out as non binary to people who had literally never heard of the concept. The whole tense buildup, gathering the courage to make that important revelation, only for it to be completely deflated and all that effort reduced to nothing, really hit home.
Yeah, I had to buckle down and give a whole lecture anytime I came out. And I'm aro and ace? I first came out as ace, then aro a couple years later, then agender a few more years later, simply because that's the order I figured it out in. Then having to explain my queerplatonic partners on top of that? It just gets exhausting after a while.
Haha that would have totally been me if someone came out to me as non binary a few years ago. I still barely have a grasp on what it is despite having had it explained to me by someone who is non binary. There was definitely a time when i was skeptical about it and considered it some kinda trans-trender, nonsense gender. But i no longer have any issue accepting it as a real thing. But i can totally understand why NB are starved for representation and would love to have an NB icon who can give y’all the visibility you guys seem to crave.
*gasp* so you’re saying that trans people don’t exist in Earth-42???
Shit, all the homophobes are gonna wanna go there XD
As a black autistic person who loves comic books this movie portrays will of the black autistic experience
Honestly, this movie is about every discriminated group. Being a Spider-Person is an allegory for being in a discriminated group.
Miles’s story works really well when viewed from a trans lens. Miles spent the whole movie wanting to be with his friends. He felt so alone and wanted people who he could share his life with. He was even going to go to Princeton with the sole purpose of figuring out how to go to other dimensions just to hang out with his friends. When he sees the possibility to spend time with his loved ones by joining the Spider-Society, he gets hit with a brick wall that says he can’t join because he is an anomaly. Miles’s entire life gets rejected because he isn’t considered to be a proper Spider-Man. The pain is even deeper when he finds out that Peter and Gwen knew this the entire time and somewhat bought into that narrative. His entire reaction to these revelations is to reject their position and fight for his right to exist despite what they say. This all gives him the strength to come out to his mom because he knows just how much strength he draws from his parents who gave him such a loving and supportive environment. Like he said at the beginning of the film, he is Spider-Man and no one can take that away from him.
So yeah, Miles’s story is a beautiful representation of the trans experience. Very fascinating how both Miles and Gwen are the dual protagonists who have such strong trans readings. There is so much depth to this film as it can be viewed through various readings. And Miles and Gwen are such great characters. Love their relationship. Arguably the best relationship in superhero movies.
The movies better not kill off either parent. Let the family be happy, that's all we ask!
As an Indian, I'd like to add
Of thw little we got of Pavitr (or Pavithra as I like to spell their name, cause its a gender neutral name that way), they gave me MAJOR enby vibes. No 16 year old cis dude has that haircut I can say that much.
EDIT: The point about the older queer generation trying to impose pain as a gateway to being trans/non binary really resonates with Pavitr/Pavithra because they are the one spiderperson who isn't encumbered by the trauma- yet. Pavithra embraces their Spideyness with a lightness that comes with gleefully accepting that role.And I read this as a very enby/genderfluid experience. I think Indian culture supports some level of gender exploration (just as long as you get hetero married) within teens (again, as long ad parents don't find out and you maintain this mask of goodness with them) and Pavitr really appears to be very fluid with their embracing of the identity.
@@glitch84- The issue with the italian dub is that he's voiced by a white guy imitating an indian accent, because the italian voice acting scene is very white dominated and so all the Black characters and characters of color in the movie end up sounding "off"
@@a.c.1839who even speaks Italian outside of Italy
@@patrickchoque7720 idk mario
@@patrickchoque7720a couple small places in africa
Damn my eyes were opened
Yeah the whole final scene with Miles and his mom, where he comes out as Spider-Man and she DOESN’T UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT IS. Is given so much more meaning through the lens you presented. Also how concerned she and his uncle are that he changed his hair…
I thought that scene was supposed to be telling your parents you don’t want to go to college
@@Dookieman1975 It seems like story details that are empathy-provoking analogies can pretty often work in multiple directions at once. Which is a good thing, IMO, and even maybe the point -- because it's about making it easier for people to empathize with people who have different experiences that may still be parallel to each other in important ways.
@@giddy9831 That's...literally a demand that people put limits on their imagination and stop making connections between stories and experiences. No, I'm really not going to get behind "shut up and just make stories as boring as I want them to be."
Yeah I was watching it and was thinking "damn this is how coming out felt"
Miles Morales being an “anomaly” is such a poignant, brilliant metaphor.
I’ve seen it applied to so many things-blackness, comic book continuity, being an afro-Latino, activism-but THIS was probably my favorite reading of them all.
What a wonderful video!
I am not personally a member of the LGBTQIA+ community and I will not insult you by pretending I am but as a devoted fan of Spider-Man and someone who has several close friends within the community, I am just happy that they have a spider variant that they have begun to latch onto as their Spider-Woman, frankly because there are so many dang spiders it would be more shocking if they didn't have one. The moral of the first film is "anyone can wear the mask" not "anyone can wear the mask. unless you identify as something other than the sex you were born into". Gwen is great character
Thank you. You can't imagine the relief I feel reading takes like yours. I see so much takes from "fellow spidey-fans" laughing at us for wanting Gwen to be our representation, it's easy for me to become cynical once more about the state of fandom. Your comment matters. You matter. Thank you so much.
@@G00dK4tI am truly honored that you took the time to respond and I am just happy that I can help the Spider-Fandom be just a little more accepting of fans from all different races, genders, sexualiaities and lifestyles. Marvel doesn't always get things right but they know that Stan Lee created Spider-Man to be anyone and it wouldn't matter, the Spider-Verse is the logical conclusion of that concept, if Gwen is your spider and matters to you, than that is the most important.
@@G00dK4t loook I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news and I probably have to be the cannon event of the lgbtq community (btw I believe canon events are bullshit and that Spider-Man 2099 just experienced an incursion) but Gwen’s straight. Like dead ass, in comics she is a straight character. She not bi, she not trans she straight. Here’s the evidence even know is very much so clear. The only people Gwen has crushed, dated were Peter Parker, miles morales, and they inferred that Gwen had a 1 night stand with hobbie but that’s just my opinion tbh. The other 2 I listed are factual canon. She just supports the lgbtq community. Which is not wrong as long as it doesn’t get like all hail satan type shit bc y’all been Doing that lately, but other than that I support lgbtq community. So, Gwen is not trans lmao
@@yusukethemazoku9111 who you are attracted to has ZERO influence on whether or not you are Trans, they exist on entirely different spectra. You can be trans and crush only on guys, only on girls or you can even be trans and completely Ace.
And regarding her orientation, which is entirely separate let's remember from the question of is she trans or not, it is entirely possible to be a straight passing Bisexual.
Neither of which is a categorical she definitely is but it's not as clear cut as you are claiming.
@@yusukethemazoku9111 let's be clear whether or not she is Trans is entirely separate and unrelated to her sexuality. You can be Trans and Attracted to Men, to Women, to both or even, shock horror, to no one. They are entirely separate spectrums.
another part that i think conect the Gwen story with a transgender expirience is the death of Peter Parker. if you notice Captain Stacy say that Peter was like a son to him, and that hunting Spider-woman was personal for him because she take someone close to him. this make me think of the reaction of some trans parents who see them childrens coming out and transitioning as this new person (in this case a woman) killing them child. and the revelation that thats not the case, make the original shock and the poor response so much terrible
I can really see how you could connect the two experiences as I have had this particular one. When I tried to once again come out to my mom (for the THIRD time!) she said some selfish bs about how she felt like the person I was before is “dead” or I killed them. I was just so offended and hurt that she won’t even TRY to accept me after I worked up the courage to try to explain again after literal months. I think that your idea really made me see that scene in a new light, as someone who has unfortunately experienced that. Sorr for ranting in the comments, I just needed to write this somewhere as I still feel hurt.
@@thefrizziestdrycat_05 the idea didn't come from me, but from a friend of the Trans community, so I want to be honest and not take credit. on the other hand, never apologize for telling your story, your experience is valid and personally I appreciate hearing it, I hope things have improved or will improve with your family, you are important and for someone like me whose experience is only as a family and friend of people who have actually transitioned I value read these kind of comments
Okay, I am sure that Miguel’s imposition of canon events, and defining being a Spider by the trauma a Spider typically suffers is a metaphor for how gender critical “feminists” define women by the trauma of the patriarchy, and they need that oppression, to validate their sense of identity.
yaaa, that's what i got from miguel too. the whole "you need to suffer for your identity to be valid" is a common mentality in certain spaces. especially in the gender critical branch of "feminists" and queer circles
And this is as if Miles hasn't already suffered through the death of both Peter Parker and his Uncle Aaron - literally being right there when both of them died. But, oh, no, "it's got to be *_this specific_* trauma that you *_have to suffer_* in order for me to deem you valid."
... transmed miguel
When I saw the scene with Miles trying to "come out" to his mom, I really resonated with that because when I initially tried coming out to my mom, she didn't understand what I was saying and went on about things that were only somewhat related.
I just want to add a little detail that during Miles's father party someone ask Miles "Hey that's a new t-shirt?" or something in the line refering to the spiderman suit, and that just remind me to a moment at a party when someone told me something like "Bro, why are you using three t-shirts?" refering to the binder, a friend of mine kinda rescued me from given explanations, but I kinda get that memory refreshed recently so it just hit me like a truck during the movie.
Thank you for the video, Vera!
At this point, there is no denial that Spider-Gwen in the "Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse" movie "says trans rights" and she is heavily coded as trans. But it would be awesome if in the sequel (where multiple versions of Gwen Stacy are rumored to appear), she is finally confirmed as trans in order to throw spite at and shut up the transphobes complaining about that.
The aspect of some members of the queer community trying to "gay-tekeep" other non-conforming members is not just hypocrite and very ableist, it is also very dangerous for causing internal divide! It is very ridiculous how "pick me" queer people acting like cis-straights in order to make themselves more acceptable in the eyes of the right wing pretend that they are protected from the hate and persecution against the queer community. The bigots hate every single one of us, even the "traitors" acting as "poster persons" for them (by the way, go eat sh*t, Buck Angel and Blaire White)!
16:00 I actually have a very different reading of that even as a queer person. I see it not as being caught by a community, but being caught and inducted into a cult when she is at her lowest point. Before she betrays Miguel, she is onboard with the cultish brainwashing that teaches her that Miles' existence is fundamentally wrong and his dad needs to die for "the story" to work properly. It's only when she sees the extremes Miguel is willing to go to that she starts to doubt him. I find it incredibly reminiscent of how cults work in real life - they act as a safety net and provide a community for vulnerable people, so that even as they start to get subjected to increasingly dangerous and restrictive dogma, they are held back from rebelling by their gratitude and loyalty to the cult. The leaders are charismatic and friendly, but with a known dark side, hidden from newcomers, that no one in the cult wants to provoke. When they see the cult leader for who they really are, the people who break away are ashamed that they were ever able to believe in this person in the first place. I think it maps onto Miguel exactly.
Which is not to say I _don't_ think the film lends itself to a queer reading, because I think it does, but that reading is focused more on the dissidents who turn away from Miguel.
Also there is a trend where queer people are a bit more sensitive to being picked up by cults or join the military. On a personal note that's how I almost fully fell into the proto-alt-right of the mid-00s and how my current partner had a military career, but there is also a wonderful episode of the trans-focused podcast "Call Me Mother" about someone who fell into the very core and basis of scientology because they were trying to figure themselves out and that place seemed different enough to potentially be accepting!
Thing is though the way Gwen was taken in by that spider society was with great reluctance by Miguel. Usually cults take in new members by love bombing them before getting out of them what they desire once they’re in. I didn’t really see Miguel getting much out of Gwen in an exploitative way that is common with cults. I do agree that the way Miguel is followed unquestioningly by his spider society is very cult-like but i think that speaks more towards his fascist tendencies.
I'd agree. It read to me like she thought she'd found community, when in reality she got love bombed into a cult that specifically and intentionally kept her away from both her father and the one friend who understands her and would have led to her asking questions. That doesn't in any way preclude a queer reading, it adds extra layers to it.
I love someone's headcanon that Gwen's Lizard Peter was a trans boy, that's why he was bullied, and he tried mixing his own HRT because the US health care sucks and some lizards can change gender. And that "protect trans kids" was in his honor.
Aranock pointed out that Gwen's dad essentially accuses "her of killing the boy he treated as a son", which... is SUCH a trans-loaded moment! All of their interactions have a trans reading!
Honestly I never made the connection between Gwen's spider clothes being hidden away in her drum set like a lot of trans folks have to physically hide their gender affirming clothes until aranock pointed it out
I really fucking hate the reading that Lizard Peter was a trans person, because a Tragic Monster who dies before the story even really starts is not really good representation, especially if the thing that makes him a monster is intrinsically connected to his transness.
@@ravenfrancis1476Which is why I headcanon BOTH Gwen and her Peter as trans. A lot of LGBT people seek our own, be it deliberately or accidentally, after all.
@@mjangelvortex That doesn't fix the problem inherent to the headcanon, though.
@@ravenfrancis1476 ah, now that you mention it, if we're reading him as a trans man then the fact that he turned violent from the stuff he was taking is... problematic considering some people's misconceptions about being on testosterone
Thinking about the team that Gwen assembled to save Miles at the end, this reading of the film makes so much sense. We have Pavitr, the Spider-Man who Miles helped out and was punished for not following the canon. Hobie, the dissident who never trusted Miguel. I mean, it was anarchists and punks who fought for LGBTQ+ rights. Peni, Noir, and Spider-Ham return. They were weird characters to show up in the first Spider-Verse movie. That's what being queer is all about. Defying expectations, refusing to conform. I'd even argue that Ben Reilly, the Scarlet Spider, could also fit into this reading. He was cloned from Peter Parker, and was intended to be thrown out as a failed experiment. Technically, he also was never supposed to be Spider-Man.
It is notable that the three Spiders fighting the hardest for 'Canonicity' are three of the Spiders furthest from the Canon. While of those fighting for Miles are all very close to canon (Only Peni is not 'bitten by a radioactive spider' origin, I believe? I could be wrong)
What an amazing video. Truly. I loved every second of it. That last part hit especially hard cause even though I'm "only" a bi cis guy I do think I... wouldn't be a fan of the person I would be if I wasn't who I am or hadn't come to terms with my bisexuality. Thank you so much for this video! ❤❤
Explaining my gender identity to my mum was really difficult. She only understood it in a purely medical sense and I had to educate her about how right now I just want some hormone therapy and mostly to be treated as a girl and to have her support. I think she got it eventually but it’s nice to see a character come out and the other person just doesn’t get it like when Miles came out to his parrellel dimension mother as Spiderman.
Finally!!! Someone talks about Miles! His made WAAAAY more of an impact since especially with the context of Miguel's constant berating. The Spider Society might also be a bit of an allegory for the gatekeeping of queer spaces. Especially with the mention of "trauma making a person" and trying to fit into this one-size-fits-all manual. I nearly gasped when Miguel "Totally Not An Inheritor" O'Hara called him an anomaly. Those exact words I what I used with myself when I was going through a rough patch. It's crazy how this is written by the Clone High people. Can't wait for the sequel😊
It also makes me think of the movie Wreck-It Ralph and the idea of glitches. Vanellope's treatment is very similar to Miles', and all because one person who put himself in charge said so.
@@brianapereira2694 ...OMG!!!
"totally not an inheritor" you kidding me right
Thank you for this! I've been going out of my mind for weeks wondering why nobody had brought up a wider lens on a queer read of the entire film. Not personally trans, but I am aroace and I really resonated with Miles's story arc relating to exclusionism and being told you haven't suffered enough to belong and not being a "real" part of the community, being told your existence harms the community as a whole and the members in it, etc. Getting a read on this from a trans-specific lens is really illuminating and makes so much sense-- thematically it fits better into the film as a whole, with Gwen's more overt trans coding, too. Like any experience, being trans is not a monolith, there's a wide spectrum to it and not all are met with the same reactions. Thank you for sharing your perspective on it here.
I'm not the only one who thought of the ace coming-out idea either! :)
What really sold the theory for me is the fact that her dad has a trans flag patch on his uniform. If he was just an ally or the movie is takes place in June it would make sense for him to have a rainbow flag but a cis person wearing such a specific flag makes more sense if it's in support of a friend or family member.
There is actually another shot of the captain's uniform where this "patch" is not the trans flag. So that first shot people are spreading all over the internet may look like the trans flag in that instance, but since in her dimension the colors are ever-changing I can see why it may look as such. As for the trans flag, well that is obviously there set up in the room.
AFAIK, the animators confirmed that that part was unintentional. The pin was not intended to be a trans pin, that's just how it ended up looking due to the color palette of the scene. Now, the flag above her door was 100% intentional
Love this!! I'm a straight cis guy, but also read the entire movie as a trans analogy. All that stuff you talk about with Gwen struggling to tell her father also applies to Miles, whose first act conflict is defined by a fear of how they will react (and specifically highlights the "you've been lying to us for a year" as a worry). And then hearing how bad it went for Gwen amplifies that fear.
I didn't know anything about transmedicalists, or that you could be trans without having dysphoria, until this video (gonna watch the one you linked to next). But even without that background, I still read into the "Pain defines us" as (among other equally relevant readings) speaking to a queer community that has long been defined by pain, and a new generation arguing that this does NOT have to be the case. Gwen joins Miles' side after her father accepts her, as she realizes his doesn't have to be her story either.
theres an interesting point nandoVmovies pointed out, that i'd like to kinda combine with one of my own; the main team hunting miles at the end, miguel, jessica, and ben reiley, are all spidermen who DIDN'T go through the traditional spider man narrative. they didn't lose an uncle ben, or a captain stacy, and while they had their own traumas, their stories are seperated from any of the peter variants. to me this kinda reads as outsiders trying to define what the experience of being spiderman is by seeing it, not living it.
on the second part, the others who help or don't hinder miles initially are all the young kids. hobie has his back from the start, telling him not to enlist, knowing how they're gonna treat him. pavitr is like "wait no he helped me??" and while it's a small cameo, sun-spider swings by and instead of stopping him is like "hey, yo i'm a big fan!". even spider-byte seems like she could've stopped him escaping but she hesitated. and then finally gwen sets out to fix the mess she kind of started. even though miles pushed her away she still has his back.
so in the end, you have a group of younger, mostly POC spider-folks banding together to stand against older, out of touch "leaders" in their community to stand by one of their own being unfairly targetted and ostrasized.
When miles mom has her speach about protecting his inner child and not letting that little boy get hurt made me cry because it felt like acceptance like Rio saw miles in that scene
Really looking forward to this one. An RPG group i used to be in once ran a superhero RP which used powers as an analogy for queerness, kind of how X-Men did the same with race. It worked really well.
I think the primary intended analogy with Miles was about being biracial and/or growing up in the intersection of two (or more) cultures, but yeah...the parallels are there, whether intended or not.
I am a cis-Mum of a trans child who saw all the things in the movie you’re describing. It is incredibly nuanced, intelligent, important film right now. And I haven’t even mentioned how visually stunning it is: that seems secondary, but as you’ve noted, just as integral to its reception. I love this film and I will keep coming back to it.
Seriously, thank you for bringing up the allegories with Miles, Miguel, and his alternate self at the end.
I felt like it's a fitting choice of the subtext that Miguel is the biggest opponent to Miles as Spiderman because he is an "anomaly" and hasn't experienced enough of the "canon events" that supposedly define them all... when Miguel is also about one of the least "standard" Spidermen in terms of his story and his abilities. His powers literally don't work the same way as most other Spiderman versions. In fact, none of his "inner circle" includes a Peter Parker (Peter B. wasn't that close as far as I could tell), and the three that he brings along into Earth-1610 at the end didn't experience many of the same circumstances to gain their powers, as none of them got a spider bite.
Even Miles comments on it later in their fight, saying something along the lines of "man, you got claws? Are you sure you're really Spiderman?"
It works on a lot of levels to show that some peoples' ideas of "rules and absolutes" have a lot of exceptions that lead to hypocrisy. It works for the surface story. It works on a trans story for the reasons you've stated here. It works for the racial allegory, especially considering he and Miguel both are partially hispanic. It even works on the overall queer level in society, as a lot of "gender norms" already have many exceptions even among Cis/Het folks.
I think on a personal level, seeing the way Miguel and the alternate Mile were depicted was a bizarre mirror. In Gwen and Miles, I saw a lot of myself. My struggles and my desire to belong while still being my fullest self.
In Miguel, I saw the kind of person I was becoming before I realised I was trans and nonbinary. Miguel is very angry, aggressive, very isolated, overly serious, and has difficulty expressing his pains. He's lost his family twice and refuses to show or process it. It reminded me of the "men don't cry" mindset that comes with toxic masculinity. I used to double down on that. I used to call who I was becoming as a "demon" or a "monster" because I felt like I just wanted to let the rage take over and numb the pain and depression, which later I discovered was rooted in dysphoria. Miguel's mannerisms, his movements, his actions, expressions... his whole motiff all reminded me of what I was moving towards.
As for Miles's alternate self, I noted his manerisms. He may have become the Prowler and tried to be this serious badass, but I felt like he also had a very dead and empty look in his eyes. Like he wasn't quite okay. Maybe deep down, he knew he didn't want to be the Prowler, but he just begrudgingly accepted it because that was the fate life had given him. I felt that a lot at times, too, where I just could not find a reason to care or feel anything. When I hadn't "doubled down" on the toxic masculine stereotypes and tried to act like Miguel, I often usually acted like Prowler-Miles, playing the role but looking and feeling like a ghost in an empty shell. I think maybe while it's a direct thing for Miles meeting this "other version" of himself, it might be a sign that it's not too late for that version. Maybe Prowler-Miles can still turn things around and become the hero of his city, even if it's not as Spiderman.
A lot of this is just my personal readings, but for me, I have deeply struggled with identity issues since I was a teen. Realising I was trans and learning to accept things and just be myself, instead of putting on the mask of who I thought I needed to be... that was a huge part of my personal story, and I saw a lot of that reflected in this film.
I definitely saw people say "She's not trans in the comics" but it's not the comics. It's an entirely new universe.
I like to look at how different Ultimate Jessica Drew is compared to the mainline comics.
Exactly. In some ways, Gwen is like Miles as someone who might not suppose to exist just because she got bit by the spider as other Gwens were lovers that ended up dead. She even points that out as one of few Spider-Gwens if not the only one.
Also I've literally read like all of spider-gwen/ghost spider's comics and there's actually nothing that bars Earth-65 Gwen Stacy from being trans that I can think of. Like she's just as canonically trans as she is cis because it's never come up. People just say she's not trans because they view cis as the default. Would it be a retcon to go back and say she transitioned when she was like 6, maybe, but it wouldn't per se be a conflict.
@mr t As of now it's open to interpretation. She's certainly an ally and there wouldn't be anything wrong with her being genetically female
@@mrt445 I didn't know you'd seen her animated genitals.
@@mrt445 Also you do realize there IS an earth where everyone is gender-flipped, right?
Loved the video, Vera 🥰 Another factor that I would like to add about the initial rejection of someone you love, sometimes it can be defined by their fear for your safety. My mom has told me, the thing she worries the most about is that by being out and proud can turn you into a target... I would imagine that revealing an Spider-identity would also be telling your loved ones that now you have a target on your back... It hits hard.
my mom said the same thing. i told "i've had a target on my back for years. everyone around me could tell i'm queer, and it's why i got beaten up so much in high school."
i'm always open about being trans now. i have a huge pride flag on the back of my jacket. if i'm gonna be a target, i'm gonna be visible for other queer folks too.
Not only is it an animated film… they have made GREAT pains to point out how they designed EVERY character’s world with a very DELIBERATE THEME when talking about how they did the animation. Every journalist asks them about Hobie, and almost immediately the creatives involved pivot to how EVERY character has gotten that kind of care.
Edit - For me that implies some kind of gag order from the execs to explicitly say it, and they’d rather say it with subtlety than not say it at all. I have sympathy for that, because I’ve seen the destruction waged on animation departments in every major studio.
And when we get lucky with things like Dead End: Paranormal Park, they get canceled after a season or two.
@@brianapereira2694 or Owl House...
As someone also genderfluid who lives really as straight/cis passing, I'm very glad to find your channel. I'm not super out and I've don't feel the need to transition, but i feel super glad to find more creators to relate a bit.
I wish you the best ✨
I’m a cis straight black man. Grew up homophonic and transphobic but loving Spider-Man with a passion. I read the comics, watched the shows and movies, played every game that released on console. I’ve been trying to be more accepting and get over my prejudice, but when I saw this pop up in my feed I was ready to be annoyed by the video. I must say I watched it and I was surprised I was being convinced. Thanks for educating me and I’ll make sure to show this to my girlfriend and closest friends because it’s a great video, great reading, and spectacular film.
The line that got me was just how scared Gwen was when talking to Jessica about Miguel that he would send her home. The pain and the fear in her voice just struck so hard.
Miles being rejected by the Spider-Society also maps really well onto the experiences of queer people who are also part of *other* marginalized groups.
I've heard queer POC talk about the racism they've faced in LGBT+ spaces, queer Jewish people talk about antisemitism in the PGBT+ community - and as a queer Eastern European, I've had some Not Fun experiences of my own, as have a lot of other queer Eastern Europeans I know
(There's a whole essay I could write about how the way the international queer community is dominated by the west leads to serious problems, for *all* non-western queer people)
OMG your jacket is BEAUTIFUL! I want one. Thanks for this post, your thoughts are incredibly insightful 💕💕💕
Migel O'Hara probably: medically transitioning is a canon event
dude that last cliffhanger trans perspective sent shivers down my spine. I hate to imagine who I wouldve been if I never embraced myself
Your perspective is always invaluable!
"super-coding" made me laugh. It reminded me of a convo I had with a friend about the trans "coding" of Gwen-
Me: "No dude this isn't SUBTEXT. This is the equivalent of a lil' asterisk at the end of the sentence with a note at the bottom of the page, right there, that says "yeah she's trans bruh" a la Terry Pratchett.
It's text but slightly off to the side. Subtext is "we aren't saying this we are just implying it using metaphors". A protect trans kids flags in her bedroom ain't a metaphor T_T
But yes also got queer vibes from Miles' story.
Your discussion of community rejection really reminds me of Thr Fresh Prince episode 'Blood is Thicker Than Mud' where Carlton was rejected from an all-black organisation because of his upbringing and tastes. Obviously a direct commentary on that community but it's similar in essence to what you explained.
So so trans
Gwen's shofting colours in her own universe, HER DAD WEARING TRANS FLAG (not something a cis parent of a cis child would do), all the little subtextual moments??? Just so many little things and also it's just my personal headcanon because I want that kind of representation for myself
There is no way Gwen Stacy is cis
Her dimension is colored that way for a reason, pick up a damn comic book instead of using headcanon. It’s already been debunked that the “flag” on the uniform was a medal that was reflecting and therefore looked a little like the flag. The flag in her room could be her being an ally or get this, it’s just the directors giving a nod. The whole “coming out” as a super hero, yeah that’s every superhero…if your community wants representation so badly, make your own characters instead of stealing others to piggyback fame.
^I know this is going to be absolutely shocking to you but it’s not a comic book it’s a movie where they can change anything about a character they want, making Gwen trans wouldn’t fundamentally alter her character to someone unrecognizable. You see her as just an ally that’s fine or if you see her as trans that’s equally fine, just don’t be rude and shut down the other interpretation just bc you don’t see her that way.
^I’m just saying that people can view her that way, and see a trans allegory in her story, and that there’s no need to be a d*ck about it and try to shut down that interpretation if you don’t view it that way.
The same goes for people who view Gwen as trans and completely shutting down the she could be an ally interpretation.
As far as literal transness all I would want from the next movie, is for Miles to hug Gwen and do "ow your face is kinda scratchy". And Gwen go, "My whiskers growing in. I'm working on it!"
Then miles is all "Oh.. oh, is it still okay that I have a crush on you?" And they never clarify why the whiskers
Loved this analysis (and the after credits scene)! I only have one disagreement which is the assumption that alternative Miles is bad. I think its a misdirect--especially since some of the indicators are stereotypes, and I think this film series has proven itself to be more nuanced than to rely on stereotypes like that.
I think you misread me. I’m not saying he’s a bad person, we don’t know yet. But to the Miles we know, he is terrifying. That’s my focus.
@@CouncilofGeeks that's fair
I, an agender individual, saw this movie with my queerplatonic partner, the one that is a trans woman. We were both vaguely aware of the Gwen trans discourse, but avoided spoilers as much as possible. The very first thing she said after leaving the theater was "Wow. They laid it on THICK.", to which I responded "And even Miles?", to which she just nodded. We discussed how the trans intentions of Gwen's everything was BLATANTLY UNDENIABLE. After that, I went on a whole rant about everything Miles went through just to ultimately come to "No, this isn't about Miles. This is about ME." I'm so glad you were able to put at least a part of that frustration into words when everyone else seems so focused on Gwen (the other part was about my father being self-centered and constantly needing someone to pin the blame on and taking everything as a personal attack; my transness, of course, being one of the things he takes as a personal attack on him specifically). Really, though. They SERIOUSLY laid it on thick
I knew this was coming lol 😅 😅. I personally don't think Gwen is trans, but I can see the coming out metaphors in both her and Miles's story about them considering telling their parents about their secret identities 🤔.
This. There is a lot of trans analogy within this film. So, because of this I like to see it as if you want to relate to a certain character then you can do so. If you're trans and view a specific character as trans, then they can be trans. If you're not trans, then you can view them as not trans. I myself am not so I also don't view Gwen as trans and that should be totally fine, for both sides.
@@headofthetable3514 No, it's not fine. She's trans. Deal with it.
Mate, I’m trans, I saw the whole film. (Only once so far but still) and I had NO IDEA Gwen was supposed to be trans (if she even is.). So, yet again, we are snufffling through crumbs, looking for micro-hints, and supposed to be excited when it’s barely there and highly contestable.
I’m too tired to be excited by hints and suggestions these days.
@@ravenfrancis1476ol she isn't. Nothing about that has been confirmed by any writers.
I have nothing against trans people, but trying to spin your theory that an already established character has to have your gender politics attached to it in some way is ridiculous.
You're delusional.
@@justhellbound4206 She's also not explicitly confirmed to be cis either. There's just as much evidence as she's trans - if not more - than evidence that she's not.
so i loved the entire video (as usual) BUT THE POST CREDIT SCENE AAAAAAAAAAAA
What an amazing analysis. Yeah the theme of not being able to disclose who you are and being rejected when you do were clear, but the nuance you brought in the Spider-Society rejection and the cliffhanger, I didn’t think of it that way and I don’t think I would have without this video. It’s brillant!
The second I saw the title of this video, I just about wanted to scream with joy. Thank you for saying it. This is what I’ve been thinking ever since I saw the film.
Love hearing your takes on media, especially with Across the Spiderverse. The meta commentary on what’s considered “canon” made me kinda think back to your video on “Does continuity matter?” And in the case of Spiderverse, probably not. 😅 Anyway, hope you have an amazing day. 💖💖
Across does retcon the final few seconds of Into. Gwen opening a portal to see Miles. How it happens in Across vs Into is still very similar, but a larger time gap is added in and the reaction is quite different. And it can't be that she saw him twice, because they explicitly said that's not the case.
That's, uh, pretty unrelated to the larger points though.
@@davidbjacobs3598Also Miguel's design changed. But that could be easily handwaved as his body changing from the spider venom injections he's been taking (they're like spider steroids if you will).
Its like how Neo isnt literally trans in the matrix, but the matrix is a story with a major trans reading
Really wish Switch got to be depicted as-intended.
I like the trans read here. I am not dismissing this take. There is great value in this take. This is just mine: I saw miles as bi most likely because I am bi. He is often shadowed in darker pinks, blues, and purples. He tries to fit in both the spider verse and the regular world... and he fails at both. His own journey feels like if he just chose a side and conformed to their way of living, life would be easy street. But like, he cant... it hurts him to try, he has to go his own way. Being bi, the struggle to fit in/masking/hiding your true self resonates. Now, this struggle is part of being queer in general, the bi flavor of it is: the invalidation up to rejection by the G/L communities and by the hetero majority. Historically, trans people have often found solace and safety in the bi-community. Gwen trusts her elders but confides in miles. Personally, I had more trans friends growing up (though I didnt know at the time) than any other part of the community.
Thank you very much for this video, Vera, it was very fun to listen to! Can't believe that it's my favourite Comic book Superhero's movies that have such strong trans themes! It's like when I found out that Bionicle has a very legitimate trans reading!
TY for this. These have been a lot of my thoughts since viewing this.
I do not know if they implicitly wrote it this way (as trans allegory as opposed to just Otherness in general) or the right smart people saw what was happening and added what they could (Flag, color splash, hair) before the film was finished. Either way; everything was so relatable. Even Captain Stacy retiring as Captain works better if Gwen is trans than if she is just a super-hero. What do you do if you are a cop (especially chief of police) and laws are coming through the pipeline that would force you to arrest your child just for how they dress? Or the symbolism of seeing your child's transition as murdering your son; Cpt Stacy effectively seeing Peter as a son, and instead of Peter becoming Spiderman like he does in every other version of the story, you get Spiderwoman. This works so well as trans allegory...and yet very easily could have been written about fandom who gets angry at changes to canon or the race or gender of characters. The whole critique of fandom and canon is a huge part of this story to begin with, so it easily was written this way; but because queerness and transness are tied to superheroes (especially Spiderman) and because the specific canon critque most in question were race and gender changes to characters...it takes nothing to just turn that from subtext to text. This was so good, and it made me feel so seen.
This was a good one. The points you made on it made sense. I can totally see like with Miles being attacked by the others makes sense. Good video
This was a lovely video, loved every point you made and made them to some of my friends when watching the movie. I will be sending this video to one of my other trans friends, who I think will enjoy it greatly. The topic hit deep, really.
(Your pronounciation of Hobie was amazing)
I'm so glad your channel is talking about this stuff, cause there has been a slew of extremely transphobic responses from so many channels asking "GWEN TRANS? THEY GONE WOKE?????" As if it's the end of the world that trans people are represented or that a trans Gwen disgusts them that much... Your video actually never claims anything of the sort, but it goes into details of real experience and reading from a trans perspective which I really appreciate...
Thanks for putting yourself out here... You're a brave lady
I think Miguel and Jessica represent an outsized influence in a community. Someone who can bring overwhelming force from a place of influence and leadership in a community.
Being following you for a long time now and I just wanted to say that I love your videos and this type of analyzing/reading of media with a queer perspective. I'm recently going through my own personal journey with gender and I want to thank you for everything you do, Vera! You are very inspiring! ❤
Best of luck, friend! May you find the answers you're looking for!
I just sent this to my friend Blythe because he's been banging this drum for weeks and I think it'll make him happy that someone else is talking about it too!
I resonate with your reading of Miles, so so so much. I, too, am an anomalous trans person, I don't fit the expected mold, and have struggled to find community (with some success)
Just discovered your content today. Love it. As a later in life transfemme, I find your content refreshing. Thank you!
i liked watching and listening to this video (I came here via Jesse and the Babylon 5 podcast episodes, so I have a lot of cool stuff still to see) thank you for your insights and making the video
Damn was looking forward to this but no duh I should have realised there would be big spoilers. Can see the movie this week though.
Thank you. Your efforts to educate us are noticed and appreciated.
As a gender fluid person finding your channel was one of the best things that happened this year. So good!! I found myself identifying a LOT with how you read the movie, and somehow love Miles and Gwen even more after watching this video (if that's even possible lol)
Being outside of the LGBTQIA+ community myself, I love to listen to your takes: they enhance my view on the world.
Case in point, I'd never thought about Gwen's colour sheme, but it's so clear now!
I'm a cisgender questioning man and even though I'm not exactly sure if Across the Spider-Verse is a trans allegory this was a very interesting/enlightening interpretation of the movie this was a awesome video and it'd be awesome to see more queer interpretations of movies like this keep up the good work
I dont think prowler miles is the one that was supposed be bitten, but would be interesting if that really is the case. But what I would really love would be seing spider Miles seeing Prowler Miles (that for me is not evil like uncle Aron Prowler wasnt too) realising whats keeping him back from him being more himself (ie hair). Theres big intersection in Miles and I wish I was able to read it better with his whole identity
Wonderful analysis, thank you for sharing. I learned so much from your video.
Great video. I'm annoyed at the algorithm, though, that's suggesting transphobic videos in the sidebar. 😠 As for rejecting members of the Community for fear of the taint of association, the irony is: that's *how* the "taint of association" both spreads, and *sticks* -- it's the age-old "Divide and Conquer" tactic. And it makes me so sad.
Well I didn't expect to be weeping halfway through the video. Thank you so much for your courage opening up about your experience, I just started my transition and as a person who was performing the gender I was assigned at birth by sheer terror of social rejection, I fear going too far in the other direction to please other people if it makes sense. This video helped me put some order in my thoughts. I really do hope Gwen is trans though, and she uses this fact to *SPOILERS* make the parallel between it and Miles's experience when she inevitably rescues him from the "Evil Miles" universe. *SPOILERS*
Miles coming out to "his mom" reminded me of my own conversation with my mom about my orientation so much i was irrationally annoyed about it being... superhero staff, lol.
Not necessarily literally, however definitely Thematically.
Brilliant take, brilliant reading. 👌🏽👌🏽👌🏽
I'm just going to throw this out there and say that her visuals are consistent with bisexual lighting. Beyond the blue and pink, there is also a lot of mixed purples in there. It's a very common lighting technique used in film, usually to show someone is queer in some way. I'm trans so it would be cool if she was trans, but I think maybe it's not exactly a trans allegory but perhaps an overall queer allegory.
I feel like an overall queer allegory would probably resonate with more people. Not that her explicitly being a trans allegory is a bad thing, it's just, in my humble opinion, it would resonate with a lot more people if they kept it somewhat vague. Leave it up for interpretation, because that way no two people's readings of the story are wrong, despite how different they may be.
Edit: same brain cell! I wrote this only like 2 minutes before you mentioned truscum yourself!
Let's not forget that the way Miguel insists that suffering and trauma intrinsically defines who the spider-people are and that that's unchangeable can also be taken as a heavy allegory for how some trans people (such as transmedicalists/truscum) define transness as their suffering of gender dysphoria and societal backlash rather than gender euphoria. Thus they try to say that if you do not suffer enough, you are not valid as a trans person.
When I first realized i was nonbinary, I didn't have dysphoria. Rather, I felt great joy, gender euphoria, when I was called the pronouns, terms, and names I picked for myself. But many people told me that wasn't enough, that I couldn't be trans because trans people had to suffer, had to dislike their bodies in some way in order to be considered valid. I was harassed by these people often just for existing online as myself, and had it not been for others stepping in to defend me, I might have bought into the harmful believe that I wasn't "trans enough" to be validly trans.
But I refuse to accept that. I'm trans, and being trans is so much more than suffering. It's the warm feeling you get when someone uses the right name for you. It's the wonderful realization that your friend is genuinely putting in effort to learn your new pronouns. It's the freedom and peace that can come with knowing yourself through and through. It's the wonder when you look at yourself in a new outfit in the mirror and feel giddy from how much you feel like the true you. It's finding a community to love and share experiences with you and be there for you when they can. It's community, it's love both for yourself and others, it is joy.
Trans isn't only suffering. It's so much more than just that. Just like being Spiderman is.
12:25 Sooooo could it be said that "transness/queerness" is a canon event? 👀
Currently closeted nb but openly gay, the scene where miles worried about his parents being mad or disappointed in him lying to them did happen to me. Almost word for word seeing that in the theater with my parents was nerve racking because it was something that was possible and a parallel to a very real queer experience. Same with Gwen, that awkward tension filled loaded conversion after the metaphorical bad coming out, felt very familiar. A lot of the little bits like her father during the reveal scene shouting different orders are very reminiscent of I think a lot of unsupportive or at least, tentatively supportive parents. Spider-Man is kind of inherently queer see it or not with how identity plays into the role and the weird denial of any possibility of queerness kind of spits in the face of the entire first movie. Anyone can wear the mask allows anyone, especially marginalized communities to fine solace in that mask and I think that’s kind of the entire point.
Vera @CouncilofGeeks 32:03 Your look does have credence. Personally, the only thing I care about is your take on XYZ and that you are happy with yourself. You comming out on your channel is a lot like a the metamorphosis of a butterfly. You have improved the more you, you are
It may not matter whether or not she’s trans, but the trans community called dibs so liiiiike she’s basically trans
❤I had very similar thoughts! For me the focus about Miles was: Miguel O'Hara pulls a Walsh/Shapiro, all: "I can scientifically prove you shouldn't exist! Stop existing!"
Took your advice and waited until I had seen the movie before watching this. That movie hit hard. From the very opening sequence and the invocation of “anomaly” eventually being thrown in with the “universal” Spider-Man experiences and “canon events” this movie had a lot to say. While I think they handled everything well enough I have concerns of the second movie ceding ground to those toxic ideas. A deification of the status quo as correct.
I recoiled and had to pause the movie when Miguel was telling Miles that he was a mistake. That universe as Miguel saw it was threatened by Miles’ existing. Blaming him for Spot.
Which let’s be real here, Miles did make a mistake; not listening to Spot and the material conditions that pushed him to his position, not deriding him as a joke. Recognizing the immediate incongruity that his actions, even if unintentionally, pushed Spot in.
To be fair that does kind of reflect a far deeper issue with a lot of the superhero genre in general and I hope very deeply that they put those kinds of ideas on trial moving forward. That reality also makes me nervous about what is coming.
The coding of this movie was intense. In danger of being destroyed by laziness. Fingers crossed that the second part sticks the landing.
I haven't seen or heard about how Gawin changed her shoes from point shoes to converse
I was drawing lines in my head the whole time while watching istg
idk if its intentional or not but i get a nice chuckle every time you call Hobie "Hubie".
That’s how they say it in the movie.
Just to add on
Feel its also a very common thing for queer black femboys such as myself
to experience rejection from certain members of our own community
i was reminded of my experience of that when the spider people were calling miles a anomaly
Feel like it's something every trans or a cis queer person at one point their life will experience being treated like the odd thing even by their community
I was looking forward to see the flag in the movie but in my showing it was edited out
As a transmasc person who still enjoys femminine aspects of presenting I’ve learned the hard way a lot of people I trusted don’t like non-binary transness and it was so painful knowing they’re barely a step away from making fun of me, I used to identify as gender fluid too and to think they would’ve hated me at that time in my life hurts. I’m not sure what to do. The trans jokes are ever present and I’m not sure if they’re jokes really but I hope they are. Sorry for the venting but this really brought out some pent up feelings. I love this interpretation
I love the outro of these videos.
When i watched it the possibility of Gwen being trans didn’t cross my mind at all. I guess you’d have to have lived that experience of being trans to have that allegory just jump out at you. To me she was just a really cute, somewhat tomboy-ish girl. And even if the writers revealed her to explicitly be trans is still think she’s really cute but i think they made they right choice to have subtle hints that would be meaningful to those who really want to see her that way. More than anything i really don’t want this to be a repeat of the supposed controversy over Poison’s gender from almost ten years ago. There was never any definitive answer because capcom’s stance was different depending on the era and region. And ultimately it didn’t matter, she could be whatever you wanted her to be. It’s not as if her role in final fight or Street fighter changed if she was cis or trans. And same with Gwen Stacey. The story wouldn’t really change that much if Miles had the hots for a really cute trans girl. With trans kids from ten years ago that had access to puberty blockers coming into adulthood it now seems possible for there to be trans girls that are near indistinguishable from cis girls when clothed. If nothing else it’s a situation that demands that society be a bit more open minded and accepting than it was in the past.
I loved the video, I really did, but why did you called him "Hubi" 😭😭
Bad memory.
Nando V. Movies made a video pointing out how Miguel, Jess, and Ben are 3 spider-people who were not bitten by a spider, but instead the result of experiments. I could see that also fitting with the transmedicalist allegory
as a trans girl I can genuinely not help but relate a lot to Miles and Gwen through a trans lens
I havent watched Across the Spiderverse, but i am able to make myself forget something until I need to remember it.
I think stories are meant to be related to by lots of different people and at the end of the day the entire spiderverse is basically a bunch of fanfic becoming canon. It is what you make of it. So if you're trans and you relate to Gwen then Gwen is trans. If you're like me a cis woman then I also relate to Gwen because she's a spiderwoman. So to me, Gwen isn't trans she's like me. "You're like me" from the first movie. The obvious trans colors went over my head in the theater only the flag stuck out and I thought "oh that's so nice the animators put in an easter egg" but I can't imagine how the WHOLE FILM would make a trans girl feel when there really isn't much rep out there for the unique trans experience.
CoG: there's no accidental visuals in animation
It is clear you've never used animation software.
"...maybe having the whole movie spoiled for you is a Canon event or something" - I died!
Damn that question...of seeing a me but someone who didn't figure out he was a trans man. I wouldn't...hate him, I would just want to hug them and tell him "I am sorry you where forced to do this"
I know most of the comments are talking about the movie but....damn you talking about if you met a version of you who didn't come to turns with who they are...hit me
I think this coding is especially powerful and relevant because of the relationship to the police. On top of the uncanny high transphobia and domestic abuse rates, more laws are being passed in favor of trans genocide, denial of rights and treatments, and higher permissions for abuse against queerness.
You can be a cop, or you can be a good person and parent.