Why wasn't Aragorn already king?
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- Опубліковано 20 чер 2024
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Re upload or not, whatever he needs to do to keep this channel chugging along is fine with me. He’s a fantastic creator
My bad bro I wasn’t subscribed but I am now and I liked the video I did my part
Fucking FACTS I'm literally in the middle of rewatching his entire channel (no joke. From start to finish) his voice is so calming, the way he story tells is incredibly intriguing, and I just love him all in all.
Im glad hes ReUploading some stuff. Gives me a chance to catch it
One of the best Lotr and GoT channels ❤❤❤
Heck, I just found this channel like five days ago, so it's new to me.
Aragorn: " I am your king! "
Peasant: "I didn't vote for you!"
Another Peasant:
"Listen. Strange Elves wandering into tents distributing shiny swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical elvish ceremony!"
That is why Aragorn had to prove himself by leadership first.
Now we see the violence inherent in the system.
Is that a Monty Python reference ?
@@ArshadAli-rp2cn Yes, it is :D And a very good one, at that!
And what did the Gondorians ever do for us, anyway?
He mistook the words "high king" for "hiking" and spent the first 87 years of his life walking around in the wilderness. This is why he was called "Strider".
😂
💀💀
😂😂😂
Get out of here
Love that Faramir as Steward basically said, truthfully , "I'm the steward, but this guy's the legit king, believe it!" and everyone just went, "yep, okay".
Ioreth in the background telling her cousin "I TOTALLY called it!"
Can't count how many times, I had a not so great day, was in a bad mood or just felt down and a video pops up on my feed, and for a moment I'm right back in the Middlearth. Where hope never dies, the evil is destined to fail, good and righteous men lead people to victory and every small act of kindness can be the last grain needed to topple the fortress of the oppressive ruler. And I think to myself "maybe our world is not that different and all that's needed is to be a little better person."
Thank you Robert and thanks to Tolkien for being there when I need to be reminded that good eventually wins.
Where hope never dies!
Our world too is where hope never dies, and evil is destined to fall. Remember Gandalf’s words to Frodo: When Frodo says, "I wish it need not have happened in my time," Gandalf replies, "So do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us".
Sorry you’re having rough times! I hope you make it through.
I’m glad to see you gradually reuploading all the videos you took down. They’ve given me such greater appreciation for these series but I hadn’t gotten through even half of them before they disappeared a few months ago. Can’t wait to wait them all soon
Why did he take down so many of his own videos?
@@SeanCMonahan A couple months ago, he made a community post about how he was reuploading the Traveler's Guide to Westeros series with updates from new material like Fire & Blood, interviews with George R R Martin, etc. He mentioned we may notice a few other videos missing while he updated, but it was dozens of videos, maybe more. Including this, he's updated 7 videos, starting with "What actually is Lembas?" They all have a pinned comment saying they're updated.
Tolkien was aware that the citizens of medieval London claimed the ancient right to acclaim - not choose - the King of England. This was never quite formally acknowledged by the monarchy but never denied either.
How does this right came to be if it wasnt acknowledged by the monarchy?
@@TheGahta Blood lineages having a claim to land/throne is a pretty old tradition. It makes sense that the monarchs without that kinda claim wouldn't want to lose their power over it
@@BierBart12 this has nothing to do with what he or i wrote
Its about the alleged right to acclaim a monarch not land rights
How powerful was Farmer Maggot?
Farmer Maggot is Eru and I'll fight anyone who disagrees
Much more so than you might think. It's only hinted at in the Fellowship, but he saw off a Black Rider, and Tom Bombadil thought a great deal of him. I would guess that as a farmer his power, or maybe strength, derived from the earth itself.
Not
We all know the answer to that.
@@ceejay0137 Great point. Tom, who'd likely forget about the one ring and wander away from it, knew Farmer Maggot and thought very highly of him
"You don't vote for kings!"
"Well in Gondor we sort of do."
Ownership of the Ring of Barahir alone should qualify anyone to be king of all men in Middle Earth. That ring was on the hand of Beren as he cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. That's a mic drop right there.
Which was crafted originally in Valinor!
Well the ring is Arwen's at that time lol
Jk
Not to mention the way in which his father originally “earned” that ring, and the way Beren then rescued same ring. Extraordinary heroism.
@@saeedshahbazian9889 That's true! I guess having Elrond's daughter as your fiance is pretty impressive too though 😎
@BooksForever there are two sacrifices that give me goosebumps every time.
Barahir and his band ( "army" at the time) as they literally cut their way in and out of the orc army with HEAVY casualties to save Finrod
and the way Huor and Hurin and the last survivors of the men of Hador just hold their ground to the last man to let Turgon escape.
I just got goosebumps again
HE WAS TOO BUSY IN THE WOODS AND SHACKIN UP WITH A BEAUTIFUL ELF DEMIGOD
"Kings just wanna have fu-un
oh, kings just wanna have fun!"
He was too classy to shack up
😂
@@johnkecktrue, was probably still enjoying himself talking and courting her
1/32 god. But still. 🙃
Thank you for giving us Deep Geeks something to escape with. I know this is a fun job for you but it means a lot for us. Again we appreciate all you do.
Hear hear.
The way I understand it is, that nobody knew Isildurs heir was alive and couldn't be outright with it because Sauron would've had him killed as a youngster. So for his safety, Elrond kept this from him and just about everyone else. Rings of Power would probably have you believe that it was his older sister Neverbeenborn was the heir..
Well of course, they put aside the older sister because of patriarchal systems of oppression and hetero-normative bias, because his sister was also queer. So they clearly erased her from the lore and ROP will show us the true Herstory
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy I just had a stroke
@@Infrared01 that's a patriarchal medical condition caused by familial trauma
Imagine being handed a broken sword by an immortal that tells you that it will help you be king. Oh and the being who wants you dead is also immortal...good luck..lol buck me
I remember Aragorn saying that he did not want any strife in Gondor, only strive with the enemy's councils. I think it was at the Last Debate. Not sure. But he said he did not want to claim the kingship while there was doubt of who would be victorious. So, he didn't want to claim the kingship and caus a civil war. I think that's why he did not claim the kingship in all the decades preceding, as well.
I read the books long before seeing the movies, but even watching the movie alone made me think that Aragorn became the king in the eyes of all of Gondor from the moment he led the charge at the battle of the black gate. The whole trilogy of films made it very clear that Aragorn didn't even feel like he had a claim and had no intention of pressing one. But then he gave that rousing speech and was the first to charge into Sauron's grasp, knowing that he wouldn't survive it. Aragorn's lineage was made irrelevant by that act, he earned the right to be king.
You are correct in your recollection that Aragorn had no intention of pressing his claim to the throne. In Rivendell, Elrond reminds him that he has the power to defeat the enemy, and he replies, "I do not want that power. I have never wanted it." I interpret "never wanted it" to mean that he was always aware of his lineage. Indeed, it's likely that Elrond told him of it as a youth. He was raised in Rivendell, after all. So, I think he knew that he had a claim, but he didn't want it.
I got excited when I saw there was a new video. Then equally excited that I get to watch this again
Nice explanation. One thing that is left out is the dynamic between Meneldil (son of Anarion) and Valandil (the youngest son of Isildur). Arnor had taken heavy casualties in the war of the last alliance; and in the disaster of Gladen Fields, 200 men (mostly Lords and high ranking officers of high numenorian decent) die with Isildur. Crucially, Isildur 3 eldest son, and among them the eldest, Elendur (who is described as the most like Elendil and the eldest of second generation of the house of Elendil) all died. As a result Valandil who is 7 years old becomes king. Arnor is weaker compared to Gondor and now the Majestic figures of Isildur and Elendur are dead. I don't think Meneldil (who is said to be the last surviving person born on Numenor itself) would've accepted the a 7 year old boy to be the High king
As a fan of the movies but never read the books I appreciate this channel so much. One day I’ll read the books (I hope)
If audiobooks are more your speed, try the versions read by Andy Serkis. He's got a great voice for narration and the main characters all come across as quite distinct.
I'd love an extra long Tom Bombadil special from in deep geek, he's mentioned in other videos but nothing dedicated, love your work!
He was legal heir but he also earned it.
Thanks for the explanation. I remember some of that from the books, but it was muddy. If they offered classes in this mythology, you would be a definitive authority.
1:09 was the title picture for the return of the king game, and for years, I didn’t realize that the tiny shield was head head armor.
He'd watched Game of Thrones - and so knew how well these things typically work out.
You ever think about covering the Dune novels/movies?
I’d love this
Honestly would be great especially considering the shows out soon
That sounds nice
There's a lot to cover there, for sure
The memory of the Kin-strife probably also weighed on the minds of the previous chieftains of the Dunedain and they didn't want to pursue their claim without acclimation by the people, which as Robert point's out, needs the Steward's and the people's rubber stamp.
quite, the memory of the Kin-Strife was the main reason why the stewards began their solo rule, there were several possible candidates in Gondor, but none of them had enough support to be proclaimed king. In order to prevent another civil war, it was decided to have the steward rule in the name of the king.
Hey I really love your content and was wondering if you ever thought about uploading these videos as podcasts on Spotify, I would love to just listen to it on the way home or while I’m playing something. Anyways I really love your videos you’re doing a great job ❤️
UA-cam premium has more features than Spotify. I download these in the UA-cam app to listen to on my commute.
You could do youtube to mp3 converter in the meantime
This is an EXCELLENT explanation!
Of course, Ioreth could tell you all about the prophecy that "The hands of the king are the hands of a healer"; she's very well acquainted with the gossip and stories about the city, and as she was saying to her kinswoman just the other day, it's very important that the future king be.............
Kingship via senior nurse acclamation. Probably not the worst method out there.
That's actually a really interesting question I had never considered! Thanks for posing and answering it!
thank you for all the amazing content, old and new. looking forward to the new versions of the Legends of Middle-Earth series, those helped me fall asleep like nothing else, especially the Glofindel and Earendil one (that's a big compliment, in case that wasn't clear :D)
This explanation so perfectly captures the reality of medieval politics. It makes me want to re-play Crusader Kings 2.
I think the key events that led to situation at the time of the War of the Ring are
1) Valandil not claiming the high kingship; I do wonder though what might have happened had one of his older brothers survived the disaster of the Gladden Fields
2) The rejection of Arvedui's claim to the throne even though he had married the daughter of Gondor's king Ondoher in addition to being king of Arnor
3) The apparent lack of interest on the part of the Stewards of Gondor in trying to find a suitable king, even if that meant searching in the north.
Consequently, Aragorn had to not only be of the line of Isildur but demonstrate that he, as his actions showed, was clearly the man to become king.
When Boromir asked how long a time must pass before a Steward could become a King, if the King did not return, Denethor replied, 'Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty. In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice'. So if the stewards would not take kingship, there really was no one else.
Still feels weird, then, that the Stewards held on for over a thousand years, without just making themselves a new line of kings, when there was basically no reason to believe that any survivor of Anarion's line would appear. I can get that they might disqualify Aragorn, or another claimant from Arnor, but if no descendants of Anarion had appeared, in 1,000 years, even if just to be disproven, then there was no reason to believe any existed, so it's surprising the Stewards remained merely placeholders, especially with how ignorant most laypeople could be, in their era.
Brilliant exposition. I have been reading Tolkien for years and hadn't fully understood that. Thank you
this was excellent. Constantly learn new riches and subtleties from your analyses.
This should have been redone rather than re-upped as-is, since there are things to improve, like “Ardevui”.
Thank you, your videos are my favourite. I rewatch all your content all the time!
In a subtly tragic way, Sauron's malicious psychological subversion of Denethor could be considered another example of evil harming itself, as he ultimately eliminated one of Aragorn's most stalwart political opponents before he even had a chance to oppose him.
So glad your reuploading!!! I miss your older LOTR videos and loved rewatching them and going down a rabbit hole
I just read the books for the first time recently and Faramir is the best character in the story. Aside from Tom Bombadil
Crazy, I was just wondering about this the other day. This was an immensely satisfying answer.
Nice! I just finished watching Lord of the rings with my kids it was their first time so it was super fun.
I think he didn't claim the kingship because Gondor was actually a very small part of the world. And he was doing more good going about in the world fighting Sauron's followers. He was keeping people safe. The city of Gondor was only part of his kingdom. He wasn't going to claim kingship until the fight against sauron can be brought to a head.
To paraphrase Monty Python, he's the king because they voted for him.
I didn’t vote for him! 😂
Unlike that other fellow who only became king because some watery tart threw a sword at him.
Ya know, I thought from watching yall and a variety of other youtubers, I was aware of enough LOTR lore to no longer be interested in your channel or those other youtubers. This video proved me wrong. Thanks for reposting
The real question is: why didn't anyone of Isildur's line claim the Gondor throne back when Meneldil's (solo) line first died off? -I'd imagine they would have been freaking out at the time and would have been a lot more accommodating.
They tried. That's when the quote at 3:39 was given. Those in Gondor didn't recognize the claims of the line of Isildur, so they first gave the crown to a more distant relative (but still descended from Meneldil), and when he died (well, charged into Minas Morgul at the Witch-King's taunting and was never heard of again), the Stewards were placed in power. Beyond that, the northern kingdoms failed in exactly same timeframe (the last king of Gondor went to help, but too late, arriving after Arthedain's fall to the Witch King), so when the line of Meneldil's line failed, the line of Isildur had already been reduced to chieftains ruling over a scattered folk in the wild. The Stewards, of ancient noble lineage themselves, would have seemed more noble and worthy.
@@thomasrinschler6783 I don't understand what's your point.
The period you are talking about is obviously (even by your own post) before all of Meneldil's (and non Isildur) recognized descendants were dead.
There's a big difference between begrudgingly accepting a royal Dunedain with lineage back to your founding kings, and being king-less in society/world where kings apparently have a profound/mystical impact and effect.
@@LENZ5369 But if the King of Arnor had already been rejected once by Gondor (with the Steward of that time playing a chief part), why would they think their claim or chances were any better after their own kingdom had been destroyed and they were now kings of nothing at all? Having the Stewards rule ostensibly in the name of Anarion's line was the choice Gondor went with as the only consensus they could come to on who should rule after their last king was killed. For Isildur's line to have claimed the throne again would only have stirred up controversy and would probably have been rejected again, so neither Isildur's line nor Gondor ever really considered that as an option.
The circumstances that led to Aragorn being in a position to claim the throne were entirely unique and hadn't ever been present earlier.
@@Wolfeson28 When they rejected Arvedui, they still had a junior branch of Anarion -whose head was powerful and accomplished, and already with a male heir.
Earnur dying without children would have been very unexpected -at that point; the issue was no longer fussing over which flavour of ice cream was best; it was whether they ever got any ice cream at all.
Given that these were (absolute) monarchies; the idea that rational actors would leave the throne vacant (of even a puppet) -is unlikely...frankly; short of a long plot started by Voronwe (and carried on but all future Stewards) to usurp the throne -it doesn't make much sense.
@@LENZ5369 This is what the Appendices say about the succession issue after Earnur's death: "Now the descendants of the kings had become few...So it was that no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would follow; and all feared the memory of the Kin-Strife, knowing that if any such dissension arose again, then Gondor would perish. Therefore, though the years lengthened, the Steward continued to rule Gondor, and the crown of Elendil lay in the lap of King Earnil in the Houses of the Dead, where Earnur had left it." Also keep in mind the line "...to most men in Gondor, the realm in Arthedain seemed a small thing, for all the lineage of its lords", which shows the general attitude of Gondor toward Arnor, even before the kingdom was destroyed.
So there were still distant relatives of Anarion's line alive at the time, but they were all so distant and their claims were so weak that none of them could garner decisive support. The heirs of Isildur (if anyone in Gondor even knew the line still existed ~75 years after the fall of Arnor), would have been considered just one more among those fringe options with a weak claim. The leaders of Gondor feared disunity in a key moment more than they feared going without a king, so the compromise they could all get behind was to sidestep the issue by leaving the throne officially vacant, but letting the Stewards effectively rule as kings. To use your ice cream analogy, the leaders of Gondor were stuck with a choice between a bunch of weird exotic flavors, couldn't agree on one of them, so they just went with vanilla to avoid controversy.
I only got into the Lotr universe a week ago and your content really helps me to dive in deeper, thanks for the fantastic work :) Also your intro gives such a classy and sophisticated vibe, I just love it.
This may be your best video yet. To the point, but gets in the most relevant facts. Very well done.
One does not simply walk up to Minas Tirith and claim the throne
I love seeing some of the older videos again or for the first time. Thank you!
Because the lost king in exile is a great fantasy trope.
Love your videos! Would love to hear your take about Frodo’s seemingly prophetic dreams and premonitions!
I check my phone everyday. Waiting for a new Lord of the rings video from you. I absolutely love your channel and appreciate all the hard work that you do and the small details you provide research and context for in your videos.
Im in deep invested in this channel!.. yer awesome 👌.. keep up the great work!
The King ranging around the countryside UNRECOGNISED reminds me of that hilarious scene with the peasants in "MONTY PYTHON AND THE HOLY GRAIL"!!! 🤣🤣
Faramir was always the 'clever' one in his family. Wise, insightful and aware. 👍 So, Aragorn does become the supported King, and that's the most important thing...
M 🦘🏏😎
I just love these videos and the way they're told. Absolutely fantastic content
Beautifully stated. Well done.
It took almost 10 minutes to say, "Because he didn't want to be."
One of your best. Well done. mate.
Absolute top content mate! Like well earned. I have actually asked myself this question when reading the books.
I was having a really bad day and then I see you posted this. It helps a bit. Thanks xx
Faramir: Aragon is pretty great y'all. Should he be the King?
Everyone: Yeah!
Wonderful video! Great job!
Great content beautifully delivered
I love this channel so much 😊
Is there a video explaining more about the dead marshes?
So good!
Thanks Robert ❤
Wonderful and thoughtful explanation!
The most important of the speech was the 'yea' by the people, the traditional aclamation so important in medieval assencions
You need to do a video estimating how many pounds of produce Merry and Pippin steal from Farmer Maggot in a year. Extrapolated from how much they said they took in the weeks preceding the events of the fellowship.
I thought it was because he had a claim to the throne from both his mothers and fathers line.
Great video...again
I think it was Tolkien who said, "a wise and just ruler gets you halfway to a good kingdom."
@3:05 Just a quick note on pronunciations (or, more accurately, reading the letters in the order in which they actually appear): It's AR-veh-dwee, not AR-duh-vwee.
Not gonna lie, I'm only watching this video for the Viggo of it all. Good job putting him in the thumbnail. I already know the answer 😊
Yes more LotR videos please! These are great!
Feels like the easiest explanation by far (even if this isn't supported by the source material) is that the Stewards were loathe to relinquish their place after a long time. If you spend a millennium "keeping the seat warm" for someone, eventually that starts to feel like *your* seat. But Aragorn's claim was really quite well backed up. You don't even have to take Aragorn's word for it on the lineage thing, Elrond literally was alive and at least semi-involved for all of it, all the way back from Elros through to raising Aragorn. He was the heir to Isildur, which lacking any heirs to Anarion is clearly the best claim to the throne of Gondor, and even if heirs to Anarion were known, he would *still* be the heir to the elder brother of those co-kings.
What else should have done while he was recovering from his broken foot?
Tolkien knew history and stories and he knew in real life Kings became Kings because that claimed to be when nobody could/would stop them. The stories, the fiats, etc... came after that :)
There's also the matter of what would be suggested to Sauron by a northern claimant to seek the crown of Gondor. An attempt to reunite the two kingdoms would imply possession of the One Ring or at least a desire to settle matters once and for all. It would have been foolish for a claimant to attempt unification without being ready for the final war with Sauron.
he was.
"heavy is the head that wears the crown"
Sir Thomas Mallory
Question: Why didn't Saruman take Gandalf's ring while he had him locked up in Orthanc?
My theory is that Saruman wanted Gandalf to keep it. Imagine you’re Saruman. You’re been jealous of and you’ve hated Gandalf for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. You now know that Gandalf has one of the rings of power and you’re looking for the One Ring. Once you find it, Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, everyone who’s wronged you as far as you’re concerned, they’re your bitches. That’s gotta be pretty satisfying.
When England didn’t have a clear claimant to the throne through lineage, they gave it to someone else. Apparently, Gondor wouldn’t do this, for some reason. So they ended up with a crazy Steward.
It was because the stewards themselves refused to take the crown of the king. Even The overly proud Denethor said when boromir said why aren't you king "I am the steward to the king." That is why
@@LKMNOP I understand that. But that doesn’t happen in actual history. Which is why I invoked the English monarchy. Sure, Cincinnatus and Washington sort of refused the throne, but they are the exceptions.
So I have this question 🙋♂️ and I have seen one other person present this as a topic but I felt the read or explanation to be lacking and thought it might be an interesting topic. Many of the first time reactions I watch of the LOTR also ask this question when they watch the movies. ( why didn’t Elrond attempt to stop Isildor 3000 years ago? Why didn’t he attempt to take the ring then? ) maybe you already did this but seems like a good question. Love the channel and thanks for thinking Deep in Geek.
Not to get too anti-monarchy, but Aragorn's claim might not be the justification for his rule, but it will be the justification for his son's rule. 😂
Has in Deep Geek ever done an episode on Ghani-Buri-Ghan?
Because he had yet to steal a kingdom Denethor and later Faramir. Aragon the Ursurper
I wish our leaders could measure uo to the quality of Aragorn.
Hail to the King 🤘🔥
Elendil sounds like the Swedish word Eländig, meaning miserable.
I have a question that has been burning in my head for at least a decade: Faramir has Numenorian blood on both sides: how is he related to Aragorn? Do we have any sort of answer to that?
Hello from Denmark.
We have a word in danish, *"elendig"* , which means flawed, bad, awfull...
I can't help but think of that when I hear *King Elendil's* name. Hehehe
But whatever. I know that Brits are always amused and snicker at the sound of King *Knut the Great,* an actual historical danish king from real history.
Hey thats funny, in dutch we have the word ellendig. Means miserable / awful hehee.
I'm sure some of you will understand why, as I watched this video, I kept thinking "Still not King" in a slightly petulant tone. 🙂
Have you done a video on Tom Bombadil? I looked but couldn’t find one. I can’t imagine you haven’t already. I probably just missed it
Ah, Robert, your videos are wonderful. But you missed a chef’s kiss level pun at 5:10.
You said, “Aragorn couldn’t exactly walk into Minas Tirith and claim the crown.”
You should have said “Aragon did not simply walk into Mordor.” 🤣
" Authority is not given you to prevent the return of the King.......Steward!"
But isador did not renounce Gondor. Remember he was hiking over both but he was killed but he did not release Gondor from the high kingship
Were any of the 9 ring wraiths related to aragorn?