Hi - I have used Shapton stones for over eight years now and offer the following observations:1 - you should level the stones more or less each time you use them, I say more or less because I sharpen using zones on the stone for chisels and half the stone for plane irons. This extends the life of the stone and reduces the need for leveling until you have used up the sharpening surface.2 - While I have mostly used the Shapton diamond stone for leveling, recently (6 months or so) I have also used the Trend diamond stone as I find it faster initially and finish with a few passes on the Shapton diamond stone. The trend diamond stone plugs up as the channels for carrying away the swarf are quite small relative to the Shapton stone and it needs more cleaning.3 - You do not need all the grits available, I have 1,000, 2,000, 4,000, 8,000, 16,000 and 30,000 grit Shapton stones. I now only use the 1,000 and 30,000 grits. The primary bevel, say 25 degrees, is established at the grinder. The secondary bevel is established by the 1,000 grit stone and the tertiary, micro bevel or final bevel is established with the fine stone. The bevels created by the stones only take 10 or 15 seconds of sharpening. I use the 30,000 grit stone for my final bevel only because I bought it eight years ago when it was affordable (relatively). I dont see any advantage in practical terms over the 16,000 grit stone but I do see a difference relative to the 8,000 grit stone.4 - My 1,000 grit stone was used up in seven years of pretty regular use - I replaced it with the Trend 300/1,000 grit stone but I do not like the 1,000 grit side as much as I liked the Shapton version. The reason is that the Trend stone leaves a pretty rough edge compared to the Shapton and you need to use a non water based solution for a lubricant as water will rust it - that is messy and a pain. That said, I have gotten over it as the secondary bevel is very fast to create with the Trend and while I have to spend a little extra time with the fine Shapton stone for the micro bevel and clean up the slop it all averages out in the wash.Finally (finally!!) other than the 1,000 grit Shapton, the others should last forever. My 30,000 grit stone has the same number of years of use as the expired 1,000 grit Shapton (RIP) but shows no material wear. It just has much less work to do with the micro bevel.I hope this helps.Don
My shapton glass stones lasted me allready 15 years now. No appreciable wear noticed so far. However my guess is that leveling actually takes off more than sharpening does...
I think for what shapton is asking, a dmt Dia flat or an atoma is a better buy for lapping purposes. It is a great tool regardless. Shapton gs stones behave really oddly when you lap them on cheaper methods like wet dry sic paper on a granite slab. The sic breaks down and the cutting power of the hone blunts quite a bit.
damn dude! i wish i had the money u boys do! i realize u just got ur flatening stone and recieved ur shaptons as a gift so i have some advice for ur less fortunate viewers and students. dont be afraid to get ur diamond plate wet, the more water u use the better. the more water u use the faster ur flattening will go, and less stone u wear away. i've been using a cheap diamond plate from harbor freight for 3 yrs now and dont have a spot of rust on it. simply Pad the excess water off and let it dry in the open for 1hr and it'll be fine. you'll also find no need to grind away ur stones so aggressively.
Please tell me, many people after shapton glass 500 switch immediately to 2000, is it rational or desirable to use glass 1000 in the interval. I used shapton pro 1000 after glass 500 and it seemed to me that it even worsened the result after 500, now I sold pro 1000 and I think do I need to buy glass 1000 as an intermediate? Sharpened carbon steel and mild steel
would the residuous bits of grit from the stones on the diamond stone affect the other stones when flattening them? i can see it changing the grit if it's loaded with particulates of a different size. you could test it by ensuring the diamond stone is completely clean, and then sharpening the 500, and then the 2000, and vice versa to see if they feel different, if that makes sense.
You should pencil grid your hones, cancel it out with your lapping plate, and then cancel a 2nd grid just to be on the thorough side. The 500 is an amazing tool for removing chips and damage from blades. The 1500 shapton professional (thick type) might be the best bevel setting stone for stuff like straight razors that I know of.
Hello Ben, hope you are keeping well. These seem to be remarkable sharpening stones. Do you still use the same exact stones to sharpen your tools or have you worn them out? Thinking about purchasing these, hence the question. Thanks
Hey Thomas, I'm still on the exact same set this many years later and on too of that I can't even tell if there has been that much appreciable wear.. they are obviously used but seem just a thick as they were in the beginning. I heartily endorse them!
Hi Ben, I bought my Shapton set based on your original weekend workshop review - though I got the 1000/3000/8000 set (P/N 50508). The kit and the diamond lapping plate cost me 600 Aussie dollars though which was a mighty wack up front.Frankly, based on my level of experience with sharpening technologies (i.e. none) it probably would have been smarter for me to buy a cheaper system. My initial ham-handedness had me gouge a couple of them quite badly. I've become significantly more adept since then and the lapping plate has removed the gouges but the amount of material I had to remove to flatten them would have shortened their useable life quite a bit.All that said, except for my clumsiness, I couldn't be more happy with them. Even without a strop (my next purchase) I can get a fantastic shine on the edges and my planes and knives are cutting brilliantly!
I'm only starting out with sharpening things...am still shopping around for he best. I have a couple questions. Shapton have "HC" (High Carbon) stones and "HR" (High Rockwell) stones. Can someone tell me the difference, as in HC is only for...and HR is for...kind of thing? Also can these stones be soaked like water stones, or is that bad for them? How much water should you use on the stones? Thanks to who ever answers...
Old Yeller The HC (High Carbon) stones are for traditional Japanese and carbon based steels. The HR (High Resistance) stones are for all the modern stainless steels, super steels, powdered metal steels, and tool steels. So you would not want to buy the HC stones if you are sharpening pocket knives or fixed blades with modern day steels. I would go with the HR stones. You can sharpen everything on them. As for soaking these stone, no. These are not a soak and go stones. These stones you put a little water on them and you are good to start sharpening on them. Soaking these stones can result in breaking down of the ceramic makeup.
could you make another episode about sharpening on tight budget ? or mistakes to avoid while sharpening on stones. i was wondering about thet, because i have right now only few tools that should be sharpen, but i do not want to go sandpaper method every time and i can't fnd good sharpening stones in my region. (they are not thet popular) the biggest size of something usefull was 50mm (2 inches) orange and grey synthetic water stone witn unspecyfied grit ( i belive it is 400 and 800, but who knows) My plane is about 50mm so... it is hard to sharpen it the same way acros the balde
Love your videos , highly enjoyable and informative. But I've been thinking about rubbing two stones together and wondering if they will deform equally , if one is flat one is deformed , they will move to a middle ground which is neither flat or fully deformed
hi, I use ohishi waterstones and I use a dia_lapping plate to flatten them, however my maker of stones only go as high as 10,000 and I am considering buying the shapton 16,000 and maybe even their 30,000 but will my lapping plate work on these stones? woodworker cheers
Damn. I wish someone would send me all that sharpening gear. That would make my year! Thanks for the vid on the stones, I was looking at trying to save up to get one or two of these. I think these are the stones I want.
Hi maybe stupid question, but have you in your years of work used diamond plates. If you have what did you find better? I have use King stones for shaping, but have just brought diamond plates, I would like to know your thoughts. No not a troll just someone interested in your perspective. Cheers from Tasmania.
Ben, good video overall enjoy the discussion. But I am not sure I in agreement of using a larger grit on a finer grit stone, why would you do that? The corser stone will be putting in valleys into the finer Stone. No different if you're using any material, just think of the grid size and that will give you the Valley od the cut into the surface tou are cutting size. You are leaving trace cuts in the finer ceramic. I think Tom is right! Grit to grit size is best each time. Then it does not take as much time to flatten. Also use less pressure on the blade and use the complete surface of the stone! But you should really use 3 stones to level not just twice. Read Moores book on how to get a flat surface for lapping plate, the use three plates in alternation to near true flatness, not just surface finess! I think this is where your just tossing money down the drain, Also dont use paper toweling on the plates, rinse with running water with a tooth brush or natural hair short hair brush. Your leaving fines on the ceramic. I also air blow the plates off. Put each stone in it's own container no cross contamination! Also getting pristine Apex on any blade whether it's a bevel or it's an angle depends on a lot of criteria to get that edge. The perfect judge will be one molecule at the Apex all the way crossed like a singular rope but that's near impossible! The only material I know that you can get to be one molecule thickness in layer is graphene. You also made a point about your 30k or .44 micron ceramic plate. You can get the same on a hard leather strop with green Rouge at point five microns or Diamond paste at the same level. And working at this level the finest your truly need a perfectly flat plate any method to hold it at that level otherwise it's just a average. So there is a lot of criteria that must be understood for the material being cut and the tool that's doing the cutting and how sharp it has to be. Are we doing softwood or Hardwoods with the grain or against the grain the cut of lumber the dryness building material Exedra Exedra exedra there is no easy one answer for all blades and all cutters for all jobs. But you're always trying to do the best you can with the resources you have! Let Tom know I think he's on the right path but to use three stones not just two, but with good practice a stone will last a lifetime!
I would love a couple of Shapton Glass stones, but expensive and the diamond lapping stone price is ridiculous so how can you keep the sharpening stones level without the overly priced lapping stones. Wish someone would send me a free set.
Hi - you seem like a really nice guy and I appreciate that you want to share and teach. But you need to dip your whet stones in water - they should be used wet. Those stones are called splash and go stones -they need to be splashed with water as you sharpen. Also you need to get a nagura stone to clean off your metal buildup. Try the channel - burrfection - you will love how much your sharpening will improve and how much more you will get out of your excellent stones.
You don't need the Shapton Lapping stone to level out your stones. That Shapton lapping stone is way over priced. Well over $300 US Dollars. Bob Kramer by Zwilling has his own line of ceramic glass stones. You can get his lapping/flattening stone for $24 US Dollars. It might not be fancy but it will work just fine.
I had to stop the video at 9:52. I just can't watch this kind of abuse in a video. A plant mister? This isn't a potted plant, you potted plant. I hope he ruined this plate so he had to spend his own money to replace it.
People, I have the exact stones this dude has and don't be suckerd into buying this lapping plate, I use the atoma 400 plate and I know a dozens of people that use it and it is fantastic, this one he is using is WAY overpriced!
+Sour correct, this level of precision is a modern affectation/requirement. The Old guard never flattened their stones at all. However there is a tradeoff.. Not flat means you are much less likely to get a flat back and will often have slightly curved cutting surfaces.. Not bad in many cases but sometimes, ie hand cut mortices it is pretty much essential if you want a perfect, and easily achieved, joint. In the end perfection might be overkill in some instances but it can't hurt. - Ben
I can agree with most of that. Technically your edge of the knife never contacts the stone. It's contacting the abrasive that is released from moving the knife back-and-forth. So technically you can have the worlds flattest stone and never have a flat contact surface. Also if your stone is dished in the center like a bathtub the edges of the stone are still flat. You only need one flat part of the stone to sharpen a knife. And my doing so the walls of the stone with drop lv to the center and you'll have a flat stone once again. But great video really liked it. And I'm not trying to argue with you just my opinion is all. Vinny
I have some 2+ inch stones that are about halfway through there usable life that I've never flattened by anything other then a knife I was sharpening. And my edges that come off those stones can split hair with no problem. This allows you to save a tone of money. Ppl that flatten there stones after every use are throwing out at least half there stone during its usable life. It's there money they can do whatever they want I'm not saying they can't. But it's definitely unnecessary
Hi - I have used Shapton stones for over eight years now and offer the following observations:1 - you should level the stones more or less each time you use them, I say more or less because I sharpen using zones on the stone for chisels and half the stone for plane irons. This extends the life of the stone and reduces the need for leveling until you have used up the sharpening surface.2 - While I have mostly used the Shapton diamond stone for leveling, recently (6 months or so) I have also used the Trend diamond stone as I find it faster initially and finish with a few passes on the Shapton diamond stone. The trend diamond stone plugs up as the channels for carrying away the swarf are quite small relative to the Shapton stone and it needs more cleaning.3 - You do not need all the grits available, I have 1,000, 2,000, 4,000, 8,000, 16,000 and 30,000 grit Shapton stones. I now only use the 1,000 and 30,000 grits. The primary bevel, say 25 degrees, is established at the grinder. The secondary bevel is established by the 1,000 grit stone and the tertiary, micro bevel or final bevel is established with the fine stone. The bevels created by the stones only take 10 or 15 seconds of sharpening. I use the 30,000 grit stone for my final bevel only because I bought it eight years ago when it was affordable (relatively). I dont see any advantage in practical terms over the 16,000 grit stone but I do see a difference relative to the 8,000 grit stone.4 - My 1,000 grit stone was used up in seven years of pretty regular use - I replaced it with the Trend 300/1,000 grit stone but I do not like the 1,000 grit side as much as I liked the Shapton version. The reason is that the Trend stone leaves a pretty rough edge compared to the Shapton and you need to use a non water based solution for a lubricant as water will rust it - that is messy and a pain. That said, I have gotten over it as the secondary bevel is very fast to create with the Trend and while I have to spend a little extra time with the fine Shapton stone for the micro bevel and clean up the slop it all averages out in the wash.Finally (finally!!) other than the 1,000 grit Shapton, the others should last forever. My 30,000 grit stone has the same number of years of use as the expired 1,000 grit Shapton (RIP) but shows no material wear. It just has much less work to do with the micro bevel.I hope this helps.Don
donald henderson thank you.
My shapton glass stones lasted me allready 15 years now. No appreciable wear noticed so far. However my guess is that leveling actually takes off more than sharpening does...
I have the spyderco ceramics, would you say they are as hard / slow wearing?
I think for what shapton is asking, a dmt Dia flat or an atoma is a better buy for lapping purposes. It is a great tool regardless. Shapton gs stones behave really oddly when you lap them on cheaper methods like wet dry sic paper on a granite slab. The sic breaks down and the cutting power of the hone blunts quite a bit.
cool to see them after some serious use.
damn dude! i wish i had the money u boys do! i realize u just got ur flatening stone and recieved ur shaptons as a gift so i have some advice for ur less fortunate viewers and students. dont be afraid to get ur diamond plate wet, the more water u use the better. the more water u use the faster ur flattening will go, and less stone u wear away. i've been using a cheap diamond plate from harbor freight for 3 yrs now and dont have a spot of rust on it. simply Pad the excess water off and let it dry in the open for 1hr and it'll be fine. you'll also find no need to grind away ur stones so aggressively.
Please tell me, many people after shapton glass 500 switch immediately to 2000, is it rational or desirable to use glass 1000 in the interval. I used shapton pro 1000 after glass 500 and it seemed to me that it even worsened the result after 500, now I sold pro 1000 and I think do I need to buy glass 1000 as an intermediate? Sharpened carbon steel and mild steel
would the residuous bits of grit from the stones on the diamond stone affect the other stones when flattening them? i can see it changing the grit if it's loaded with particulates of a different size. you could test it by ensuring the diamond stone is completely clean, and then sharpening the 500, and then the 2000, and vice versa to see if they feel different, if that makes sense.
Those are awesome stones. The lapping plate is a must.
You should pencil grid your hones, cancel it out with your lapping plate, and then cancel a 2nd grid just to be on the thorough side. The 500 is an amazing tool for removing chips and damage from blades. The 1500 shapton professional (thick type) might be the best bevel setting stone for stuff like straight razors that I know of.
Hello Ben, hope you are keeping well.
These seem to be remarkable sharpening stones.
Do you still use the same exact stones to sharpen your tools or have you worn them out?
Thinking about purchasing these, hence the question.
Thanks
Hey Thomas, I'm still on the exact same set this many years later and on too of that I can't even tell if there has been that much appreciable wear.. they are obviously used but seem just a thick as they were in the beginning. I heartily endorse them!
@@CrimsonCustomGuitars Thanks very much for the quick reply. I'm looking forward to getting many years of use from them. All the best.
I"m surprised you didn't put a pencil mark on the face of the ceramic. Thanks for sharing!
Hi Ben, I bought my Shapton set based on your original weekend workshop review - though I got the 1000/3000/8000 set (P/N 50508). The kit and the diamond lapping plate cost me 600 Aussie dollars though which was a mighty wack up front.Frankly, based on my level of experience with sharpening technologies (i.e. none) it probably would have been smarter for me to buy a cheaper system. My initial ham-handedness had me gouge a couple of them quite badly. I've become significantly more adept since then and the lapping plate has removed the gouges but the amount of material I had to remove to flatten them would have shortened their useable life quite a bit.All that said, except for my clumsiness, I couldn't be more happy with them. Even without a strop (my next purchase) I can get a fantastic shine on the edges and my planes and knives are cutting brilliantly!
I'm only starting out with sharpening things...am still shopping around for he best. I have a couple questions. Shapton have "HC" (High Carbon) stones and "HR" (High Rockwell) stones. Can someone tell me the difference, as in HC is only for...and HR is for...kind of thing? Also can these stones be soaked like water stones, or is that bad for them? How much water should you use on the stones? Thanks to who ever answers...
Old Yeller The HC (High Carbon) stones are for traditional Japanese and carbon based steels. The HR (High Resistance) stones are for all the modern stainless steels, super steels, powdered metal steels, and tool steels. So you would not want to buy the HC stones if you are sharpening pocket knives or fixed blades with modern day steels. I would go with the HR stones. You can sharpen everything on them. As for soaking these stone, no. These are not a soak and go stones. These stones you put a little water on them and you are good to start sharpening on them. Soaking these stones can result in breaking down of the ceramic makeup.
could you make another episode about sharpening on tight budget ? or mistakes to avoid while sharpening on stones.
i was wondering about thet, because i have right now only few tools that should be sharpen, but i do not want to go sandpaper method every time and i can't fnd good sharpening stones in my region. (they are not thet popular) the biggest size of something usefull was 50mm (2 inches) orange and grey synthetic water stone witn unspecyfied grit ( i belive it is 400 and 800, but who knows) My plane is about 50mm so... it is hard to sharpen it the same way acros the balde
thank you Ben this kind of information is great
I often use waterstones to level other stones. I have a cheap Sharp Pebble 400/1000 that I reserve for this work.
Love your videos , highly enjoyable and informative. But I've been thinking about rubbing two stones together and wondering if they will deform equally , if one is flat one is deformed , they will move to a middle ground which is neither flat or fully deformed
hi, I use ohishi waterstones and I use a dia_lapping plate to flatten them, however my maker of stones only go as high as 10,000 and I am considering buying the shapton 16,000 and maybe even their 30,000 but will my lapping plate work on these stones? woodworker cheers
Damn. I wish someone would send me all that sharpening gear. That would make my year!
Thanks for the vid on the stones, I was looking at trying to save up to get one or two of these. I think these are the stones I want.
would the head to head be against the sigma stones by chance?
Bar keepers friend is perfect for cleaning diamond stones then paper towel. Hey presto.😁👊
Fly to the face at 35 seconds! Well held Mr Crowe!
Hi maybe stupid question, but have you in your years of work used diamond plates. If you have what did you find better? I have use King stones for shaping, but have just brought diamond plates, I would like to know your thoughts. No not a troll just someone interested in your perspective. Cheers from Tasmania.
I’m
you should do tool challenges head to head expensive high end tools vs more budget friendly version
Ben, good video overall enjoy the discussion. But I am not sure I in agreement of using a larger grit on a finer grit stone, why would you do that? The corser stone will be putting in valleys into the finer Stone. No different if you're using any material, just think of the grid size and that will give you the Valley od the cut into the surface tou are cutting size. You are leaving trace cuts in the finer ceramic. I think Tom is right! Grit to grit size is best each time. Then it does not take as much time to flatten. Also use less pressure on the blade and use the complete surface of the stone! But you should really use 3 stones to level not just twice. Read Moores book on how to get a flat surface for lapping plate, the use three plates in alternation to near true flatness, not just surface finess!
I think this is where your just tossing money down the drain,
Also dont use paper toweling on the plates, rinse with running water with a tooth brush or natural hair short hair brush. Your leaving fines on the ceramic. I also air blow the plates off. Put each stone in it's own container no cross contamination!
Also getting pristine Apex on any blade whether it's a bevel or it's an angle depends on a lot of criteria to get that edge. The perfect judge will be one molecule at the Apex all the way crossed like a singular rope but that's near impossible! The only material I know that you can get to be one molecule thickness in layer is graphene. You also made a point about your 30k or .44 micron ceramic plate. You can get the same on a hard leather strop with green Rouge at point five microns or Diamond paste at the same level. And working at this level the finest your truly need a perfectly flat plate any method to hold it at that level otherwise it's just a average. So there is a lot of criteria that must be understood for the material being cut and the tool that's doing the cutting and how sharp it has to be. Are we doing softwood or Hardwoods with the grain or against the grain the cut of lumber the dryness building material Exedra Exedra exedra there is no easy one answer for all blades and all cutters for all jobs. But you're always trying to do the best you can with the resources you have! Let Tom know I think he's on the right path but to use three stones not just two, but with good practice a stone will last a lifetime!
Have you tested this one: ZWILLING J.A. Henckels 34999-013 100 Grit Glass Water Sharpening Stone
No, I haven't met one of these yet but would like to.. B
I think mine might be coming down for a little diamond treatment. :)
I just got my first plane, finally. I should find an affordable sharpening method. I wish I could afford these stones.
I would love a couple of Shapton Glass stones, but expensive and the diamond lapping stone price is ridiculous so how can you keep the sharpening stones level without the overly priced lapping stones. Wish someone would send me a free set.
Wer and dry sandpaper on a glass chopping board works just as well for less than a tenner.
They probably are the best.
For the price, they had darn well better be!
If you think Shaptons are pricey you just have not priced sharpening equipment.
2 questions dude, do you have other tattoos on your body not just the scalp? And where is your accent from? South Africa?
very cool.
Hi - you seem like a really nice guy and I appreciate that you want to share and teach. But you need to dip your whet stones in water - they should be used wet. Those stones are called splash and go stones -they need to be splashed with water as you sharpen. Also you need to get a nagura stone to clean off your metal buildup. Try the channel - burrfection - you will love how much your sharpening will improve and how much more you will get out of your excellent stones.
he had a literal treasure chest😨
45 micron is around the 500 grit mark microns and grit have an inverse relationship more microns = lower grit
fly on the FACE!
Chosera - or now called Naniwa Professional - they will eat Shaptons lunch in performance. Try 'em....
You don't need the Shapton Lapping stone to level out your stones. That Shapton lapping stone is way over priced. Well over $300 US Dollars. Bob Kramer by Zwilling has his own line of ceramic glass stones. You can get his lapping/flattening stone for $24 US Dollars. It might not be fancy but it will work just fine.
11:00 Blimey I can’t see this lasting for years after scraping it away that long.
ffs. Could've done with that code earlier today!
Just bought 3 shaptons of them damn it
Was cringing while watching this. Use lots of water mate.
Tell me about it. That plate is close to $400. FFS I mean show some respect.
@ diamond lapping plates need to be flooded when grading stones regardless of who made them. This plate being a Shapton just makes it hurt worse.
You need more water to carry away the swarf!
I'm sure the are verry good, however far to expensive for me.
I had to stop the video at 9:52. I just can't watch this kind of abuse in a video. A plant mister? This isn't a potted plant, you potted plant. I hope he ruined this plate so he had to spend his own money to replace it.
Little editing maybe? Like trimming just a healthy 18 min out of this perhaps?
People, I have the exact stones this dude has and don't be suckerd into buying this lapping plate, I use the atoma 400 plate and I know a dozens of people that use it and it is fantastic, this one he is using is WAY overpriced!
People.....Rico Suave is a douche bag so don't be suckered in by his bullshit
CrazyCool Fool no, he’s right, it really is WAY too expensive at £300.
This showed literally nothing on sharpening!
This video was actually about how to level the Shapton Whetstones on the Diamond Lapping Stone.
Couldnt focus with all that tribal shit going on
Very informative but cut to the chase, you talk too much!!!
A stone needing to be flat to sharpen isn't true. My stones get used almost every sand I'll flatten them once a month max normally every other
+Sour correct, this level of precision is a modern affectation/requirement. The Old guard never flattened their stones at all. However there is a tradeoff.. Not flat means you are much less likely to get a flat back and will often have slightly curved cutting surfaces.. Not bad in many cases but sometimes, ie hand cut mortices it is pretty much essential if you want a perfect, and easily achieved, joint. In the end perfection might be overkill in some instances but it can't hurt. - Ben
I can agree with most of that. Technically your edge of the knife never contacts the stone. It's contacting the abrasive that is released from moving the knife back-and-forth. So technically you can have the worlds flattest stone and never have a flat contact surface.
Also if your stone is dished in the center like a bathtub the edges of the stone are still flat. You only need one flat part of the stone to sharpen a knife. And my doing so the walls of the stone with drop lv to the center and you'll have a flat stone once again.
But great video really liked it. And I'm not trying to argue with you just my opinion is all.
Vinny
I have some 2+ inch stones that are about halfway through there usable life that I've never flattened by anything other then a knife I was sharpening. And my edges that come off those stones can split hair with no problem.
This allows you to save a tone of money. Ppl that flatten there stones after every use are throwing out at least half there stone during its usable life. It's there money they can do whatever they want I'm not saying they can't. But it's definitely unnecessary
this guy takes forever to spit it out. I'm going to unsubscribe